The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - When Roe v. Wade Costs You a Friend

Episode Date: August 12, 2022

What should our attitude be in the wake of the ruling that has overturned Roe v. Wade? Abortion is a polarizing issue for many and can cause tension in families and friendships. In the wake of this ruling, Jeff offers some points to ponder that could help you navigate these relationships. Snippet from the Show Demonstrate the peace and love of Christ. Email us with comments or questions at [e-mail]. Text “jeffcavins” to 33-777 to subscribe and get Jeff’s shownotes delivered straight to your email! Or visit ascensionpress.com/thejeffcavinsshow for full shownotes!

Welcome to the Jeff Kaven Show, where we talk about the Bible, discipleship, and evangelization, putting it all together in living as activated disciples. This is show 282 when Roe v. Wade cost you a friend. Well, good day to you, my dear friend. Thanks again for joining me. And as you can see by the title on the show, today. We're going to talk about something that a lot of people are going through right now and have experienced maybe you have as well. And that is the aftermath of Roe v. Wade being overturned on June 24th and the activity in the wake as far as families and friends and you know, things can feel a little bit turned upside down. And so I want to talk about that a little bit here today. When Roe v. Wade cost you a friend, whether it cost you a friend,

or you can sense the difficulties, in the relationship, in the tension in the air, I want to just help you out in any way that I can today. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a professional counselor, I guess you would say anymore, because I was a pastor for 12 years a while ago, long ago. But as your brother, as your friend, as someone who walks with you every week on this journey of discipleship and scripture in the kingdom of God, at least I'd like to help you in thinking about this. I don't have all the answers. I'm not saying I have all the best answers. But I do know that some of the things I can share with you today might help and they might be the type of information that you can pass on to a friend or family member that also is in this difficult

situation. And there's all kinds of combinations to this. You can have five siblings, and two of them were pro-choice, and two of three of them were pro-life. And as a result of the ruling, everything is squirrely now in the relationship. In fact, maybe you didn't go to a reunion or you didn't go to a birthday party because the tension was so high. Difficulties can be taking place at work because you were talking about the issue for years, and then all of a sudden, all of a sudden this happened, and it changed the entire complexion at work and your entire environment.

Well, those are some of the things I want to talk about here. And so what I'm going to do is talk about it a little bit, and then a little bit about our attitude towards this, towards others in the wake of the decision on June 24th, 2020. and then I'd like to give you some things to keep in mind. So I think it's going to be very practical and needed and needed. All right. So when Roe v. Wade was overturned, you know, recently, the story literally took center stage on the news.

And today it is the topic of many conversations, water cooler, conversations, conversations when members of a family get together. And prior to Roe being overturned, the topic was discussed about. among family and friends, but it was, in most cases, kept out a place where the relationship with friends who have an opposing view could be maintained. It was like the issue was just below the surface, and on most days, it was kind of pushed down to maintain a civil conversation. After all, mom and dad are there.

We're getting together with a family. It's a wedding anniversary. It's a birthday party for my nephew. And for many, all of that changed. On June 24th, the 1973 ruling was overturned unleashing a storm of emotion, both happy and sad, jubilant, and angry. And since then, I have heard from several people who have told me what happened in their dear relationships with family and in their warm relationships with friends in the wake of

the ruling. One person said that a family member was angry and literally screamed at them, this is what you have wanted all these years. I hope you're happy. Don't call me anymore. That's literally was the reaction of one of our dear listeners. Her family member told her that. Another person said that her sister won't answer the phone anymore,

while others blamed their family and friends for all the troubles. in the world today. People take it personally on both sides. They have those who are elated, see it as a victory for the unborn, while those who are pro-choice see it as a personal loss of autonomy over their own bodies. Today's podcast is not the place to continue the debate, and that's not what I'm going to be doing today, but I want to talk about what happens to relationships in the wake of the ruling. For many, this was not an issue that was just going on the last week or the last couple of months or so. No, this was an issue that's been boiling over for years.

For some of you since 1973 and beyond, both in friendships as well as in families. And this is an interesting thing to remember, you know, when we talk about strained relationships post June 24th, is that your mere presence stands for something. It stands for something and reminds people of what they were fighting for and, quote, unquote, lost. Now, I know that when I say pro-choice or pro-life, people, if I say pro-choice, people say, well, you mean pro-abortion. I'm just going to use the phrase pro-choice to talk about people who took that track in their philosophy and their beliefs. Well, now post-June 24th, you step back into the relationship. you step back into that relationship with that family member or friend.

And it looks like, well, it looks like a tornado went through town. And you're left with the results. And when I say that, I really mean that you're left with the results. It's in your lap. You know what I'm talking about, don't you? You may say, Jeff, my relationship with my sisters never, it's not the same anymore. It's just not the same anymore because of what took place after that ruling. And you might say that the workspace with our cubicles at work, it's not the same place.

Or Zoom meetings don't even sound the same. Well, we'll see in a moment here that, you know, what did you expect? And I'm going to talk about that from Jesus' perspective. But what should our attitude be in the wake of the ruling? I know that the topic is big, but let me just give you a few things to think about here. And again, I know that I'm going to give you three major things to think about here. but I know there's probably five to 10 to 20 different things. And I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

And so if you could write me, my email address, I'll give it to you. It's The Jeff Kaven Show, one word, the Jeff Gaven Show at ascensionpress.com. And in the show notes, they're going to be available. If you want to make a comment on the show on Apple, Google, love to get your support. Again, if you disagree with me, then that's fair too. So what are some things that we have to keep in mind here? when we find ourselves in the wake of June 24th and things have been turned upside down. Well, one is to recognize what was really at stake in their hearts, in people's hearts,

even though you don't agree with their reasoning, which I don't. I'm pro-life, 100%. I wrote about it back in college, in fact, and I've been a part of debates, public debates, with pro-choice women and men, even using Aristotelian logic. no Bible, no mention of God whatsoever. So recognize what was really at stake in their hearts, even though you don't agree with their reasoning. There is a loss in their minds that is sometimes interpreted as, I don't matter.

Now, I know what you can think about that, right? Well, what about the baby? And in everything I say here today, we could say, well, what about the baby? But there are people thinking, I don't matter. I don't matter. The government just made a, you know, a judicial statement. in the Supreme Court, and I don't matter. The authority has been taken away from me.

And what's next on the slippery slope, right? So, and for some people, this is very much about autonomy. It's very much about authority in their own life and that they feel, at least, that they don't matter. And I know, boy, the opposite of that surely is what about the baby. I know that. But we're talking about the relationships here in the wake of the over time. turned 73 decision. It's not just that they can't have an abortion. It's deeply personal and

speaks to the core of who they are. For some, this was something that they held on to that represented control in their life. They knew that they could always exercise authority and control in the situation that they would find themselves in. And we are living in an age of radical individualism, and the ruling reminded everyone that we live in a radically relational world. We really do. No one is ultimately alone or excluded from others. And so I just bring that up as one thing to remember, and that is that two people who are angry about the Supreme Court decision, it's not just a law thing. These aren't people that are just interested in jurisprudence and legislation, not so much. I find that there's things behind this that are also in

play. And that's just something to remember when you talk to people. The second thing is that the ruling may bring up pain. And this is a really important point here. The ruling may bring up pain from a previous abortion that they felt was over. They were healed. The Roe v. Wade ruling in 1973 put some salve on the wound, just knowing that the Supreme Court said, this is okay, gave a certain comfort of deep down inside, maybe I feel a lot of pain with the loss of this child, but the government said that this is completely within the parameters of a civilized civilization. And a lot of other people did this. and now this wound may be ripped wide open again.

And this is an aspect that is not talked about much. That on June 25th, the day after the 24th, there's a lot of jubilation, a lot of anger, a lot of rejoicing, a lot of vitriolic remarks. But there may have been hundreds of thousands of wounds that were ripped wide open. It may not be just a political topic, but a deep wound that has been very, very hard to carry all these years. And this is why we need to take our conversation out of debate mode for some and love them and to resist the debate mode.

I mean, there's some people that are crushed here. And not for reasons that I would agree with, but they're crushed. Nevertheless, their human beings are created in the image and likeness of God. you and I feel that we stand on the side of God with our pro-life stand, but we also are responsible for our attitude and caring for hurting people, even if they're hurting because of a topic that we don't agree with. I know that pro-choice people may deny it. I know this. I'm okay, but I do see, and you may see it as well, I do see the pain of past wounds on many faces. And in one way, blame them for trying to heal? Who can blame them? For trying to heal. When I was on EWTN with

Life on the Rock, I did a number of shows with Mother Angelica. And we interviewed a lady from Rachel's Vineyard. I remember that very, very clearly and talking about the number of women who go walk, they walk throughout society looking like they're healed, but underneath the skin and underneath their heart, they are broken. And I'm not saying that's, everyone, but I know it is there. One lady who spoke with me said that her friend, who basically abhors her now, had an abortion just this last March, and for the most part, screamed at her, I'm okay with it. I don't believe it. I don't believe it personally, but I have to walk in kindness and love. The third is that for some reason there has been a

long battle going on in the family or friendships regarding this topic. And for the pro-choice people, this was a sucker punch to the gut, a sucker punch that you were in on from the beginning. That's the way, I said just a moment ago, your presence stands for something. It reminds them of what they were fighting against. It reminds them of what the battle was all about. And this sucker punch that they feel, for whatever reason they feel. I'm not here to talk about that. You represent part of that arm, part of that fist that gave them that feeling. And so smiles and smirks and laughter and praise God's those kind of comments can be taken the wrong way, taken in a very personal way. And that's why I think that in talking to our friends and family who are on that other

side of that decision, there can be no provoking. It can be no provoking. As Paul said, you know, don't provoke your kids to anger and provoking, as far as I'm concerned, that's just plain wrong to provoke people for the sake of provoking them. That is not consistent with being a child of God. One person told me that their friend called them long distance and told them that they don't want to get together anymore. No more phone calls and kids are not getting together to play when they get together. They're done. This is how deep it is. That's how deep it is. When I come back from the break, I want to talk a little bit about the nature of the gospel

and some suggestions on what to remember when you are engaging in the conversation with some of these friends and family members of you. Oh, by the way, if you want to hear me every morning, you can go to the Hallow app, and you can go online and sign up for that three free months. Every morning I give a devotional every morning with Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus on the Chosen. And you can go to hello.com forward slash Jeff Kavens. Sign up and get three months, then get the app, sign in, and give it a whirl. Also, remember, next June of 2023, Father Mike Schmitz and I will be leading, and by the way, the Swoffords are going to be joining us from Benedictine College.

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It's a tough, tough topic. When you lose friends because of the overturning of the Roe v. Wade decision, maybe you haven't lost a friend, but sure enough, it strained some relationships, didn't it? Well, I want to bring up something here that I think is important in the conversation, and that is the nature of the gospel that we proclaim. We're charged with sharing this gospel with other people, and it's not always going to bring peace, but we need to be honest about that.

Jesus said in Luke chapter 12, he said this. He said, I came to divide. This is a very powerful part of scripture, and it doesn't communicate that Jesus purposely came to divide. people. That's not what the scripture is saying when he says that he didn't come to bring peace. But listen to what he said in Luke 12. I'll put it in the show notes for you. You don't have the show notes. Just text me. My name, Jeff Kaven's one word, to the number 33777. That's 3377. Okay, so here's what he said. From now on, a household of five will be divided. Three against two and two against three. A father will be divided against his son and a son against

his father. A mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother. A mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. I think Jesus could have gone on and on and on with that description, but he needed to get around to the point. But I think the point is, is that when the gospel is proclaimed, when the gospel is proclaimed, it can end up with divisions. It can end up with divisions. It really can. And I'll talk about that a little bit more at my conclusion in just a few minutes as to why that happens, why it divides. But know that when you stand for life and when you stand for the innocent and you proclaim justice and mercy and kindness and self-sacrifice, that message is not always going to keep a family together.

You'd think it would. I mean, it's such a good message, but it's where people land on which side of that good news. That's where the division takes place. But let me give you some things to think about here in talking to your friends in the wake of the June 24th. I'll see. I got seven of them for you real quick. Number one, I think it's important to assure.

people of your love for them. See, your relationship with them was not about the topic. That is not the glue that kept you guys together. You loved one another. You have a friendship with them. Your children play with each other. And think about it. You may be the only one in their life that can love them through the anger and loss of control, not to mention the wounds of the past. You might be the only one. Don't bring this thing to a debate. Don't give up that relationship it for being right, you know. So assure them of your love for them. And you don't even have to say, in light of the overturning, I want you to know, I love you.

Just let them know, I love you. I really love you. I care about you. And I am so glad we're friends. I really am. You know, people need love. And that's the first point of the charygma. God loves you and has an amazing plan for your life.

People need it. Why does it work to say that to someone? Well, because it's the truth, and people need it. Number two, don't allow the conversation to move into you versus them. Like I said, that's not the issue. The issue is not a personal battle to see who is smart and clever and right and sophisticated and educated and formed. No, don't allow the conversation to move into that realm of you versus them.

keep the conversation real, that they are authentic human beings that deserve dignity and and loving care. And with that, I would say, you know, pray for them. Pray for them. I put that in, I put that little ingredient of prayer in every one of these seven points is to remember to pray for them. Okay, number three, avoid arguing at least for a bit. And I say that because people might want to continue arguing and it'll just get turned up a notch.

But in situations like this in the past for me, I've avoided arguing, at least for a little bit. Demonstrate the peace and the love that Christ gives you. Demonstrate it. Walk in it. Love with it. But I don't think in the wake of June 24th arguing is going to be fruitful. Number four, a big one here. It's important for you, my friend, when you're with family and friends in the wake of this.

Be patient. Be patient with people, realizing that their response doesn't come from an easy place, but most likely a difficult place. If my hypothesis is true and from what I've heard from Rachel's Vineyard and other ministries around, the country, there's a lot of hurt people. A lot. I just talked to a good friend of mine who told me that his daughter is in prison for murdering their child. That can't be easy, no matter what the reason was. I'm talking, I'm not talking about abortion. I'm talking about killing their child after birth. They're both just as egregious, but to to be in that situation, to have gone through that situation.

I have never gone through that. I cannot imagine what happens in the minds and the hearts of people who have been a part of this. And so I think it's just so important to be patient and to realize that that response that they're giving you doesn't necessarily come from just a judicial response, but a very deeply, deeply personal response. even so deep that they might not even be able to articulate it. They might even explain it away. Number five, I mentioned a sense of loss and controlled in the lives of those who hold a pro-choice stand. You can lovingly introduce them or remind them of the corigma. Not in a theological treatise or say, let me tell you some truths about the Bible here,

but in regular conversation to be able to mention to them in a loving, gentle way that that God does love you and God has a plan for your life and sin does get in the way of this plan and God loves you so much. He died for you. And I just know that this proclamation of the gospel works in a very, very powerful way. Number six, recognize that their pain and anger isn't about laws. It isn't about laws primarily. There's going to be some people say, yes, I'm very concerned, very angry about this because of legislative decisions and a Supreme Court. But I think that that pain comes from a much deeper place. I mentioned this earlier with control and autonomy, past pain.

Or here's another one. And that is, maybe you haven't had an abortion, but your daughter has. and you are sensitive to pro-choice people, even though down inside you would say you're pro-choice, or pro-life, rather, your pro-life, even though you're pro-life deep down inside, you may be sensitive to the words and the attitude of pro because your daughter's pro-choice,

and she had an abortion, and you're picking up her pain. You're being offended because of her. And that's something to watch out. for the same thing went on with the whole issue of having a gay son a lesbian daughter and that all your life you said that you did not believe that was the right way to build a family but now that your son is gay you are sensitive about that and so i think it's important to recognize those things when you're dialoguing with someone number seven forgiveness and release for things for things said to you. That is, that's so important. In the wake of June 24th, people might say things to you.

They might communicate their hatred for you, their anger with you, their disappointment in your relationship. Forgive and release. When you forgive and you release, you're coming from a position of strength that emerges out of weakness. Forgive them, release them for the things said to you. Don't carry that because that will affect your relationship with them. So let me wrap this up here today. And again, I really want to hear from you. Email me, The Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com.

The Jeff Kaven Show, one word at ascensionpress.com. Listen, they may think that. that you think you've won. That's what they might think. Okay, you know, Sally really thinks she won. Don really thinks he's all that in the bag of chips now. You know, he thinks he won. The ruling brought the relationship down to the level of competition.

You versus me and you won. And that's smirk on your face, you know. So if you're going to share the authentic gospel, the true chrygma, the message of the kingdom, then brace yourself. while truth sets us free truth also can divide truth left to itself doesn't divide truth left to itself doesn't just divide truth divides based on what side of it your friends and family land on this my friends this is why i believe the majority of catholics don't share the gospel with other people, because there is some sense inside that this truth could divide relationships

and they don't want to share with anyone. By the way, just keeping it real. And so for the gospel to end up in division, you don't have to be snarky. The message is alive and will create division when unleashed in the wild. But you've got to be prepared for that. And that's what I'm hoping I'm doing today is giving you at least some suggestions. suggestions. So I would say this, be real, be genuine, strong, gentle, wise, and don't back down because you think bringing up the gospel will end poorly. Walk in love. And as Paul talks about,

let every word be seasoned with love and grace. And don't be surprised at what the gospel produces. Again, brace yourself. God loves you, and he's going to use you in the wake of June 24th. And I pray right now, in fact, let's pray together, shall we? In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Lord, I lift up, my friend, you right now. And Lord, here we are in the car. Here we are, jogging, taking a walk.

and I lift them up and I pray, Lord, that you would give them the words, the wisdom, the heart to re-engage in a relationship that is strained because of the wake of June 24th. I thank you, Lord, for giving them influence and giving them grace and words of mercy. And I pray for the heart of their friend, that their heart of their friend would bend the knee to you, O God, that they would see this clearly and that you would do the surgery on their heart that needs to be done. We can't do that. that's out of our out of our pay scale lord move on that heart that my friend is praying for we pray this

in jesus name amen name of the father and the son and the holy spirit i love you friend i really do god bless you and you have a great week