The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish - #12 Véronique Rivest: Wine Lessons

Episode Date: July 24, 2016

Véronique Rivest and I explore the fascinating world of wine, including an on-air tasting, tips and tricks for serving wine that will impress your friends and so much more.   Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/   Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/   Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to The Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parrish, curator behind Farnham Street, which is an online intellectual hub of interestingness covering topics like human misjudgment, decision-making, strategy, and philosophy. But today we're going to be talking about wine, one of my favorite subject. The Knowledge Project allows me to interview amazing people from around the world to deconstruct why they're good at what they do. It's more conversation than prescription. On this episode, I have Veronique Rivet, one of the most respected salmagnets in the world. She's been

working in restaurants since she was 16. She's entirely self-taught and has an amazing passion for wine. After placing twice in the top 12 in 2007 and 2010, she became the first woman to make the podium by taking second place at the world's best salmonee competition in Tokyo in March 2013. She's the owner of Swaf and Hall, which is quickly becoming one of my favorite wine bars. We explore the fascinating world of wine, how to taste, including an on-air tasting, tips and tricks for serving wine, and so much more. I'll apologize in advance for the audio. We had a goof with the recorder. This is definitely worth listening to. With that said, I hope you enjoy the conversation. Welcome. Thanks for coming on. I've never interviewed a

salmagnet before and you're one of the world's best so this is incredibly exciting for me tell you how you get started with your love of wine for how many hours do we have it's um you know what i i never had a real it's not as if i woke up one day and i decided i wanted to become a semi die it's uh really something that um happen through um you know different jobs experiences trips, people I met. I actually started working in the restaurant industry at about 16 years old as a student job. And my studies have been completely non-wine related. I did a BA in modern literature languages, with studying languages, and then an MBA in international trade. But all that time I was working in restaurants. I ended up going to France for a year of study, turned into a seven-year

stay and looking for a job there I found a job with a winemaker and I thought oh this sounds cool you know and I had been in restaurants for a while I would basically fell in love with the restaurant industry with the service industry the restaurant industry as a whole and with wine and food but every time I say that I'm like who wouldn't right so it's really just all these you know a combination of of jobs I held of people I met and all of a sudden I kind of realize okay this this could actually become a real job. I wasn't very glorious in my family when, you know, I wanted to be a waitress.

Today it's well seen. They're kind of happy about, right? So there's no illumination. It's kind of happening. Okay. And what was it like living in France for seven years in terms of culture between here and there and the differences? And is that what really started your passion or?

No, it really. fed it in a way I guess I always thought I was a citizen of the world my mom's German my father's French Canadian we've always traveled a lot as kids it's something my parents instilled in all of us my brothers are still great travelers and I thought I had no particular attachment to Canada that and you know it takes that you have to live elsewhere to realize how good you have it at home right And it did, that time I spent, so there was always this opening onto the world and European

culture in particular. So it's not as if it was something new, it felt kind of natural. And in Quebec there is this strong, you know, these strong links, cultural links to France. So it wasn't like, you know, a big shock or anything. But I really, really appreciated the food and wine culture. And being in Alsace, that's where I was for seven years, one of the best places to eat and drink. It was, I really felt in my element. I just loved being around the winemakers, you know, when I was working at this winery,

I was constantly, you know, had my nose into the winemaker's lab, asking everybody questions down in the cellar, you know, just really, really curious. I think you're curious of the winery. Outside of the winery, so you were going to the actual vineyards and spending time there with the winemakers. Exactly, yeah. When did you start your process of becoming a so many in France, or did you do that when you came back? That's a good question. Again, there's such a kind of a seamless flow to everything I did that there's no real defining moment.

I think it all kind of falls together. But after those seven years in France, when I came back to Canada, I was seriously, the obvious choice was a restaurant job because, again, there's, it's a good thing about it is that there's always work when you work in the restaurant industry, right? So it was an easy thing to fall back onto, but I was starting to think, okay, maybe I could, you know, become a wine buyer for the SAQ or the LCBO. I didn't know how things worked back then. It's not as simple as that. So I started thinking of wine as more of a possible career choice. And when I came back, I was working in restaurants in France. I came back here.

I went directly to restaurants. It was kind of my comfort zone. And just kept evolving in restaurants. I think that it's an industry I really liked and that I felt comfortable in. and I felt good in, so, and it's the first time, I didn't even know what a sommelier competition was. I didn't give myself the title of some of ye, and I am, I mean, even though I took every class I could during my whole life,

I followed every class I could on wine, but at the base I'm self-taught. Again, as I said, curiosity is something that really defines me, and so I would read everything, just like when I was at the winemaker in France, I was always asking questions about everything. I would read everything I could get my hands on. And so when I came back from France, I was in 94,

went back to the restaurant industry. I got a job also at the LCBO, started working, quickly became a product consultant. And I saw an ad go by for some of the competition, and I thought, huh, I had just been back six months in the country, and I thought, what better way to find out who's who, who's doing what? Yeah. You know, what's going on?

had been away for so long and I had heard great things about the restaurant and the Somagis seen in Quebec, but was disconnected from it all. And so I signed up for that competition. I thought, you know, if I'm going to go, I might as well do it, right? There was 60 people doing the semifinals and six finalists, and I was expecting to watch the final, you know, but I was called as one of the finalists, yeah. So two questions. I mean, what is involved in the path to becoming an official salmagnet, and then what is a, what happens at a Solmagnier competition? Okay, oh, there's two big questions.

So how the path has evolved? I mean, there's still, in France, in Europe in general, they've had, I mean, it's a known trait, and they've had Somelier schools. There's a Somerie program in every hotel, restaurant, school throughout Europe. So it's something, it was actually difficult But when I first went to France and thought, oh, I'll find a job as a student, those aren't student jobs.

People train to become servers, to occupy every position in the restaurant industry. But it's much more recent that we have officials, some media training, in schools in North America. We see it now more and more. I think we've had it again in Quebec for a certain time because of our links with France, because of many ways we have more resemblances with, but so it's slowly starting. I'd say in the last 10 or 20 years, we've seen more official programs for training seminars in North America.

But there's also a lot still to be, well, I was going to say like every other train, no, I hope there's not a lot of surgeons that learn, you know, that are self-toddust. There's some professions where you don't want that, like pilots, surgeons. But in this industry, I think there's probably still a lot, and more so in North America, because we're not as, you know, it's not as all compartmented into, you know, strict academic programs. And when you go to a competition, you have all these varying backgrounds competing for what's involved in the competition.

That's a, we could talk hours about just that, but I love talking about it because for so many people, so many competitions are strictly tasting contests, right? The number of times, and I hate that, but I'm in public events and I have people, people walk up to me and stick a glass under my nose and say, what's that? And I always say, I'm not a circus animal, you know? It's not. So I guess it's what people remember the most because it's the most impressive. People are always very impressed by somebody who, you know, does it a blind tasting and says,

okay, this is a Pinole Mall from Burgundy from such village from that year. I remember watching Somme and they were trying to do that. Have you seen the movie some? And they're trying to do that, right? And it just blew my mind that, like, you were even capable of it. doing something like that so so that i think that's why people remember that because there is something impressive about it but what's really important to things it's it's it's it's not just this guessing game there's really really serious knowledge needed to back up a tasting like that

oh of course um the um first of all in the tasting as such it's not you're not going to get that many points from guessing what it is it's kind of fun we all love to do it right and it's very Shelly and flashy. Exactly, right? But the most talented people in this business also learn humility very quickly, and we're the first to recognize that, you know, no, it's not easy. No, we don't guess it right every time. People going around bragging, oh, I always get blind tasting.

They're usually not very knowledgeable. So the guessing what it is part is fun, but it's not the finality, I'd say, the analytical tasting. It's analyzing the level of acidity of sugar, of alcohol, of tannins, being able to qualify the tannins. Are they ripe, unripe? Does it come from a hot year, from a moderate year, from a cool year? What kind of soil type might it come from? Has it seen oak or stainless steel or clay amphores? If it's been in oak, was it new oak? So these are all things that take years and years of tasting, training. And basically, blind tasting is deductive reasoning.

Okay. So you just rather a whole bunch of, yeah. And the tasting, so that's how complex a tasting can be, and the tasting is still just one part of the competition. I'd say competitions are always threefold. There's the tasting, there's obviously service, because we are service people. Even though the world, the word somebody has become very, very trendy,

you know, a bit like the chefs, there's all this kind of like, you know, almost rock star status in certain circles. You would be one of those people, right? Yeah, but I hate that kind of, the semadiers are servers, right? First and foremost, so somebody who calls themselves a seminian has never worked in the restaurant business in their life is not really a semi-eatier. Somebody is a server. It's a wine specialized server.

I always tell when I'm training young people that are starting, I say, if you find serving the slightest bit degrading, change business right away, right? This is not, you should thrive on serving people. That's the basic, basic thing to start. So service is part of the competitions can be anything from how do you serve a no bottle of Bordeaux, how do you open a double magnum of champagne and serve it to, how do you deal with difficult guests, right? So it's a lot of tact and diplomacy. Wine and tune matching.

It's a huge part of our work, right? So being familiar with not only French cuisine, Italian, Spanish, Japanese, Mexican, knowing the great cuisines of this world and being able to do wine and beverage of matches, because it's not only wines. Somebody should be familiar with every beverage alcohols, spirits, liqueurs, ears, sakes, as much in terms of blind tasting as production, elaboration,

different styles, and pairing. And then the biggest part, the third part, other than tasting and services theory. We're basically supposed to know everything, and the theory is just so vast and continuously expanding, right? I mean, we're way past the days where there was France and Italy is wine producers. China is the six or seven world's largest producer of wine today. Brazil makes wine. Thailand makes wine.

So knowing everything about grade-growing, so geology, you know, climate questions, wine making, which is essentially chemistry, all the great varieties of the world, all the wine appellations of the world. So the theory is immensely vast. Nobody will ever know anything, but they can ask us anything. It's all for our game. Sounds like the only job better than mine, walking around tasting wine all day. Speaking of which, they dropped off two glasses here. Can you walk me through a tasting and what we have? A mine tasting, okay.

Yeah. Well, wine for me, you know what it is. Yeah, I'll tell you exactly what this is. So I don't even know. I sit down in a restaurant, they pour wine, am I supposed to swirl, how do I actually go through it? You're supposed to enjoy it, right? That's the most important thing, and that's what anybody's serving you should worry about the most, right? That's it. We're there to make sure people have a good time.

So enjoying it is the basic thing. Then you can completely geek out about it, and we love to do that, right? And people are more and more into wine. And so, and I truly believe that. that pleasure increases with knowledge. And the more we know about wine, about the people who make it, the region it comes from,

it really adds to the pleasure of tasting. Can you walk me through how you would taste this? How to do it tasting? Yeah, okay. So first of all, we're looking at three things, eyes, nose, and palate. And the visual examination of a wine is something a lot of people overlook,

but it's full of clues to what the wine could possibly be. So we have obviously versus the color, right? So we have a slightly salmon pinkish wine. So it's a rosé wine. In certain wines, there will be variations of color. When wines age, their color changes. Oak aging can impart color to wine. If it's the same grade from a super cool or a super hot climate, it's not going to have the same... It'll be a different color. It'll be a different color. So very, very slight differences, nuances, hues in the wine that can tell you a lot about what the wine is or where it comes from. Of course, you're never going to jump to a conclusion from just one clue. Again, deductive reasoning. So we're combining all these clues together to come to a logical conclusion. The other thing that's obvious about this wine is... It's bubbly. It's bubbly. See? I feel like a pro now. So it's got

bubbles. Bubbles could also be, it's not necessarily a sparkling wine, from the amount of bubbles here and they're not a lot continuous but still and it's more than if it was wine with just a little bit of CO2 trapped in it right that could also be the case okay I think of Vino Verde certain wines yeah but wines that are bottled very young or can be bottled with a little CO2 in them sometime on voluntarily to give them a bit more of that freshness of that you know sprits to it but this looks like it is a fully sparkling wine right we can look at the You know when people swirl their glass around,

when we talk about legs on a wine, so the tears that come down? So when you swirl it around, and you see the wine coming down on the inside of the glass, can tell you about viscosity of the wine. So a combination of sugar, of alcohol, of body, usually the thicker, the tears, the slower they are to form and to come down,

the more full-bodied the wine will be. It could be an alcohol, can be in sugar, it can be a combination thereof. I wish that people did that to errate the wine. We swirl it around definitely to airate it, but as the wine is coming down, you will watch the tears. Okay. It's something I didn't pay attention to for many years because you need glass in a perfect state, right? There shouldn't be any residue of soap.

There shouldn't be... So it's not the most trustable source of information, right? But it's something you can look at. Then, of course, so we know it's rosé, we know it's sparkling. That's about all we know for now, right? It's a very light hue. Some rosés tend to be much darker, so it could be different grape varieties, could be different styles of winemaking and sarah.

Then we're going to smell it, and ideally you want to smell it once before swirling it around. Okay. Just admit, first thing you're going to look at is this is a wine clean, looking for faults. Are there any faults? Is the wine corked? Does it oxidizes or something wrong with it? How do you tell a corked wine? By smelling a lot of corked wine.

And the wine bar I have, every time we stumble, or wherever I am, if I'm doing an event, and there's lots of people help. If I have a bottle of corked wine, I always keep it and make people smell it. Okay. Because so many people don't know what a corked wine smells like. Some people confuse cork and oak. So it's a very distinctive smell, and you just need to smell it, you know, after you've got it a few times to memorize that smell and then you'll instantly pick it up when it happens

because it can be very just a corked wine can vary tremendously in the the intensity of of its faults some wines are so badly cork you open the bottle and people you know 10 feet away will smell it oh my god that's corked um others uh we're going to be there's going to be three of us you know pouring over the glass like this it's not it's not perfect keen something something's wrong but it's not So the intensity of the quart smell can vary. It's not always the same. And see, we have a sparkling wine. A lot of people, I don't know why,

think sparkling wine cannot be corked. Oh, okay. I don't know why. Any wine can be corked. Port can be corked. Sparkling wine can be corked. But there's this, every time I have a quart, sparkling wine, people, so often,

oh, I didn't know sparkling wine could be corked. Yeah, of course. Any wine can, anything that's closed with a cork, a natural cork closure, can be corked. So the wine is clean It doesn't have any faults And then we're looking at intensity The intensity of the aromatics

Because some grapes are much more aromatic than others There's some highly aromatic grape varieties Like Giveriltsramina, Musca, Viennier So when you have a very intensely aromatic wine Already you've eliminated a whole bunch of others Right You know it's going to be In sparkling wines

There's usually a limited number of grapes that are used to make sparkling wines worldwide. There's probably lots, and there's always somebody somewhere doing something weird with an unheard-of grape variety, but a lot of sparkling wines are either made with the champagne grapes, so Charnai Pinot Noir, mostly.

Then you have the sparkling wines of Spain, the Cavas, which have their own grape varieties, Prosecco in Italy. So there's these pockets of a few. few sparkling wines, specialty sparkling wines made in certain countries that have their own grapes, and then they're the ones that are made according to the champagne model, which are made in champagne, but all over the world, in Canada and the United States, and Germany, everywhere. So at least we're not dealing with 2,000 grape varieties, usually when we're dealing

with sparkling wines, right? Right now, we're taking it down somewhere. So something we're going to look at when we're doing a sparkling wine is from the aromas and the taste and the quality of the bubbles trying to define is it a wine that's been made in the champagne tradition or is it something else so when we're smelling at it you look at the intensity sparkling wines are usually unless it's made with an aromatic variety are usually more discreet they're not super big on the nose right they don't jump out of the glass at you there's always a certain finesse in the sparkling wines this smells amazing you like it and you know the other thing is um People are so afraid to say when you ask them,

okay, what are you smelling? Everybody is so, there's been so much intimidation throughout the years with wine that people feel incompetent when you, and I always say, if I give you a plate of food, you know, I give you a dish, and most people will say if they like it or if they don't. And if you ask them wine,

they'll probably be able to say why they like it or they don't. Give them a glass of wine and ask them their opinion, they're totally scared. The vocabulary around it seems so impenetrable to... And yet it's not that different from food, right? We're dealing with taste, so there's obviously a lot of subjective personal preferences. But it's, you know, first of it's just, okay, do you like it or not? Why do you like it?

Okay, yes, the vocabulary is not there, but like for, you know, not everybody has a chef's vocabulary for food either, right? And you develop that as you go, but you have to just, start to jump in, to say what you think. It's by expressing your thoughts and tasting with others that can help you kind of put the right words on what you're thinking, that you'll get there. But there's unfortunately been over the years so many people

that have positioned themselves, you know, be it winemakers or wine writers or so-called experts, some of these old image of the arrogant French seminiaes, so many people have positioned themselves as having the ultimate truth. and we're going to, you know, we're going to teach you poor ignorant consumer what good wine is. Right. Everybody's equipped to decide if they like the one or not.

Exactly. Right. I digress a lot. Oh, this is amazing. I love this. So this is, I know what it is, right? So it's a, it's a Kava. Okay.

Well, actually, it's not a Kava, but it's from that region in Spain where they're going to make. Kava's a big, big, big industry. I love Kava. So a lot of really good. affordable sparkling wines are made under that denomination, and they work with local grape varieties. Xarello, McCabeo, and Tarrellada, three white grapes. There's a few others also, but those are the three main grapes used for Kava. So it's not champagne like it. It's not a champagne look-alike. They're using different grapes. It is made, though, in the traditional method. We're not supposed to say champagne

method anymore, but so in the same way as champagne is made, which is considered the, the, the best production method for giving, you know, the better quality sparkling wines. But Kava is a huge appellation with millions and millions of bottles made. And this producer is a producer I like a lot called Raventos-I-Blanc. And they've been working really hard to try and get the standards for Kava higher. Higher. Because they thought there was too much low quality, you know, a lot of really cheap supermarket wines in the category. Anybody can just label it Kava.

Well, you have a certain Caillé di Charges, you know, a certain protocol to follow in terms of elaboration. The grants are allowed to use. You have to make it a method traditional, right? The whole elaboration is all, but still, it wasn't sufficient to ensure the level of quality they wanted for the product. And there's a lot of really low quality Kava produced. So the standards of the Appalachian are not sufficient to, you know, Distinguished between them. Exactly, the more ordinarian.

And so they actually pulled out these guys. They don't call their wines Kava. That's why is it. So it's made in Catalonia, in Pinedes, in the region. They're actually in the heart of the Kava production region with Kava grapes. But they pulled out of the Appalachian. They don't call their wine's Kava anymore because they don't want to be associated with a brand that also has a lot of really low quality products. Right.

So, yeah, that's the long story on these guys, Ramento. So they now call their wines, Kunka de Riyudanoya, which is actually a geographical designation. It's the land where they are, where they grow their grapes and make the wines. When do we finally get to taste? Go ahead, taste.

So on the nose, we're looking for aromatics, we're looking for oak influence, we're looking for minerality. In the aromatics, what kind? Is it more fruit? Is it floral? Is it spicy? Is there a lot of non-fruit aromas, or is it just a big fruit bomb?

And is your ability to distinguish those different smells come from smelling them and then smelling wine, and just over time again, kind of like the corked one? Our nose is like a muscle, right? It's one of our most, it's an amazing sense we have. And yet it's our most, it's the one we use the least. We're so dependent on our eyes that we completely underuse our nose. We think, we all can smell. We know we can smell. We think we're good at, oh, yeah, yeah, I know what coffee smells like. I know what basil smells like. But try smelling those things blind, not knowing what it is. And you'll be surprised at how very common smells, everyday smells, people won't recognize once you're blindfolded because we're not used to developing our smell memory. And that's, anybody can do it. It's just an exercise. I've been doing it my whole life, and I still do it. I'm far from being... How do you do that?

You smell everything. Here in the kitchen, they're always laughing at me because everything, I always go put my nose in everything. I smell, I train my nose, I smell it, I smell when I'm gardening, I smell what I'm walking, I smell when I'm in traffic. Good smells and bad, it's just a question of training your nose. And yes, trying to, sometimes I'll do it on purpose, right? Put out certain herbs, certain vegetables, whatever, when I'm grocery shopping. But the difficult part is, again, with your eyes close, or your eyes, or blindfolded, to be able to remember the smells.

So those kind of instant recognition of aromas, those exercises are hugely important, and they help in developing your memory of smell. And then we finally get to the tasting after the smell. And so what do you do when you, and this is going to sound maybe ridiculous, but when you put it in your mouth, you swirl it around, you swallow it?

Yeah, that gardening noise we made. It's exactly the same thing you were talking about how we're swirling it in the glass. I said smell it a first time before swirling it, and then swirl it around because it's basically oxygenating the wine to help release more aromatics. Some wines, there won't be much difference between not swirling it and swirling it. Some wines, you'll smell much more once you swirl it around, right? Some wines are a little bit shy, and they need to kind of the aromas need to be coaxed out. What we're doing in the mouth is exactly the same. It's just you take a little bit of wine in your mouth and you let some air in and you gargle the air through the wine.

So once again, it's oxygenating it to smell it better. Because that's another important thing we talk about the palate, but in the mouse we're talking about taste and smell. When you say a wine taste of strawberries or chocolate or vanilla, it actually smells of those things, right? There's only four, five or six basic tastes. Oh, that's interesting. Sweetness, sourness. I always thought it was crazy when people. like it tastes like chocolate and I'm like it doesn't taste like chocolate yeah that's why you don't

taste anything when you're you have a cold right because you can't smell when okay so so tastes are basically those things acidities sugar bitterness um and and and what are my salt those are the four basic you can throw in umami um we won't go into that because people can look it up it's a fascinating subject and fat is also starting to be considered um as a taste but so so that taste and you can still taste when your nose is blocked you can still taste when you have cold you'll you'll taste sweetness and saltiness and but you won't smell and so our palette and our nose are linked through the back of the throat retro nasal passages and so that's it when you you have something in your

mouth and you say oh it tastes of strawberries it actually smells you're smelling it but from inside your mouth exactly so that's why that putting the air through the wine in your palate helps you taste or smell it better right to the back passages okay and then you swallow and then are you looking for I mean I want to I want to geek out on this for a second are you looking for like this wine that we have here I feel it on the front of my tongue okay more so than anywhere else but that could be because I just aerated it like what and that can be personal too there's there's this um other kind of slightly ridiculous notion out there that was

vehiculated for years of a tongue map, whereas we taste this sweetness on the front of the tongue, acidity on the side, bitterness on the back. That was a mistake from the start. It's hard to believe that it's been vehiculated. Sorry, there must be a better word for that, for so long, because it was an error from the beginning. I mean, no such thing exists as a tongue map. We are all very, very individual, once again, as tasers. We don't perceive things the same way. You know that scientists say that there's actually not two people on the planet that will perceive the same food or the same beverage exactly in the same way, that's fascinating. That doesn't not surprise by all.

But it also makes it difficult to, you know, that's why we establish this kind of protocol. So we have to talk common language to, I love acidity. A wine that's super high in acidity will be just fine for me. For somebody who doesn't like acidity, that wine will be way too sour. right so that person will say that super high acidity and I'll say no it's just right right so you have to kind of calibrate ourselves and that's also something you learn as you're tasting a lot and so what would be the acidity in this that that that's in and very you know in our technical jargon we quantify everything precisely so I'd say it's medium plus

we'll go from high to medium plus to medium to medium minus to low okay um it's delicious by I'm glad you like it for a Napa Cab drinker. That's quite a different style of wine. But so on the palette, when we talked about the aromas and the tastes, because acidity helps you define, right, the level of acidity in the wine. We're looking at aromas, taste, but also structure, you know, kind of the mouse feel. On top of letting the air through and kind of gardening with the wine, You're carrying it through your mouth, right?

And to get a feel of the wine, of the weight, of how it coats your mouth, right? Some wines go down like water. Others have almost a creamy feel to them, right? So there's textual qualities that are different that can also tell you about a great variety, about a climate, about winemaking methods. So it's all these things combined that help you come to a... a conclusion that makes sense, an educated guess, exactly. Based on really elimination, it sounds like you're walking through what isn't.

And how do you know, it's just from, you know, I always tell people how you become a taster. Well, you just drink a lot. So you taste a lot, but that's it, right? It just comes through years and years of training, of tasting and rigorous tasting, not sitting alone in front of the TV and chugging down bottles, right? There has to be a method, a discipline. exactly and and the necessity of doing it together one foremost because wine to me is is about bringing people together right that's the vice of the most important things you have to

enjoy it hopefully you're not enjoying it alone it brings people together that's that right but for learning about wine also the exchange is necessary there's just so much you can learn from books at one point you have to confront your ideas with somebody else's I was talking about calibrating, right? You know, my high acidity, what is it for you, and where do we meet? What's considered medium acidity and high acidity by the community at large, right? We kind of have to agree. So the importance of tasting with others to make sure you're on the right track and you're

calibrating. And what books would you say recommend for not only the beginner, but the person who wants to get into not necessarily becoming a professional sommonier, but an educated consumer? To me, there's two Bibles, and they're pretty much everybody's, the Wine Atlas from Jansis Robinson and Hugh Johnson, which is wonderful because it covers the wine-making world. It's got great maps. It's got a general presentation of each country, each region. So it's really a solid, solid basis for wine knowledge, right? And again, understanding about the region, about the topography, about all of that helps you better understand the wines.

and it's all linked. Of course, there are wines today that are completely cut off from where they come from. There are industrial wines that you can have an Australian wine, a wine from the Long Dock, and a wine from chili

that tastes exactly the same. Those are fabricated wines. And there's nothing wrong with them. I mean, they're not going to kill you. What do you mean by technically sound? Because you can very much, you could come and, you know, you could hire a consultant wine maker today

and say, Okay. I've got this vineyard wherever it is. I want my wine to be this color to taste of chocolate and blackberries and be a little bit sweet and super round and creamy and not aggressive and to sell it around that price point. And he'll make it to order. Technology allows that both in the vineyards and especially in the winery. Through the processes? Through the processes. Both. There's many, many allowed additives and many allowed processes that. allow you to manipulate a wine to make it what you want. There's still this very romantic notion out there in the consumer world that wine is fermented grape juice. And, of course, the industry just loves that and totally exploits it. And you read all these nice back labels that tell you about the vineyard and the vigneron

and this bolic image of wine, whereas a lot of wines out there actually, resemble more Coca-Cola, you know, a soft drink or processed cheese in terms of how they're made. Is that because... So disconnected from nature. It's very fragmented, but there's becoming to be a few large players

who are striving for like, almost like McDonald's like consistency. Yeah, there's a bit of that, you know? And some consumers actually want that also. They want the reassurance of having the same product year in, year out, no matter where they go, they know they're going to drink the same thing.

most, you know, true wine lovers, for most wine lovers, the variance from one year to another, from one region to another, the fact that the same wine grower grows the same grapes on two different plots with different soils and different slopes are different. That's fascinating to us. That's what we love. I always say what really turns me on, in French we say, a rink, there's a gull. A vogue means a wine that has character, and a wine that tastes like it tastes because it comes from a specific place.

And it wouldn't taste the same if it came from another place. That's what really turns wine lovers on. But again, there are people who drink wine, they like a glass of wine, and they don't really care about the story, and they prefer something, they grew up on soft drinks and sweet foods, and they like something sweet and soft and simple.

and that's fine, right? And so there's a lot of the industry that caters to that, you know, to the mass market, make wine as a real consumer product with all the marketing gimmicks and everything that goes with it. Coming back to the service aspect of being a somenier, what do you wish more people knew when they came into a restaurant and talked to a somenier?

Oh, it's very simple. I mean, the first thing I wish people had was more confidence and be less intimidated just you know there's so many people out there that are just waiting to talk wine with you right and want to share their passion

and if anybody gives you attitude if anybody's arrogant if anybody tries to recommend a wine be it in a store or in a restaurant without asking you a single question first steer clear away from them. It just means this is what I like.

Exactly. They'll tell you what they love and without caring about what you like, right? So, but yeah, just be confident. Don't be afraid to ask questions. I always say those in the business that are judgmental that will look down on you, they're not the good ones anyhow. You shouldn't care about them.

We couldn't care less if they like you or not, right? Real professionals and real wine lovers will just be more than happy to take you on at any level you are. and try to guide you through, you know, discovery and pleasure. So that probably leads to suboptimal outcomes, right? Hiding or being intimidated by speaking about what you like and your preferences.

What would be other mistakes that people make that are easily correctable or that would offer a better experience from a consuming point of view? Hmm. Well, there's very simple things, you know, like just service temperature. We still drink a lot of wines way too cold and a lot of other wines way too warm. There's not a red wine that's good about 17, 18 degrees, right? And the whole notion of room temperature, I don't know, that goes back to the Middle Ages, but when houses are heated at 22, 23, there's not one wine that's good at that temperature.

The white wine straight, or rosé, hey, summer coming around, rosé season, so many people drink their rosé's ice. colds and that just mutes the wine. The better rosés, a lot of the better rosés are much better like at 10, 12 degrees. A fridge is at 4 or 5, right? So when they warm up, they really, roses are not usually very aromatic wines or more textual wines, but you kind of kill that texture when you serve at ice cold. And it really, you know, comes into its own when you let it warm up a little bit. So yeah, temperature is another. So do you recommend people touch the bottle? Like if I ordered a bottle red at a restaurant when it comes and it's presented right there's so many eight times and let you try it

and if it's too warm for a red which still often happens don't hesitate to ask for an ice bucket and put the red bottle of wine in the ice bucket for five or ten minutes if they're idiots excuse me it still happens they'll look at you as if you're from mars okay but if it's anybody who knows anything they'll totally understand first of all they shouldn't serve it to you too warm but Is that an indication about how serious the restaurant you're in takes the wine as well? Totally. If anybody serves you a red wine that tastes lukewarm, they're really not serious without their wine service. That's good to know. So flipping it around a bit from the consumer perspective, how do I tell the difference between a good or bad solominee? I think in the rapport you established with them, right? From the start, their ease of approach, their willingness to really try to understand you.

and what you want and you'll see if their main goal is for you to have a good time or if it's for them to shine, right? Or if they couldn't care less because they have another important table next to you, whatever. But those things, I think. It's a regular kind of service aspect. Yeah. So you're in the business of wine now. You operate this amazing restaurant we're in right now. Wine bar. Sorry. Which is gorgeous, by the way. Tell me about what it was like to start a business and wine in an industry that is notorious for a high failure rate.

Yeah. Well, I think like most people who spend a lot of their time working in the industry, we all kind of play with the dream of having your own place one day. Although I remember for years I said, I will never have a restaurant. I don't want to be a slave. I don't want to have a life. but you know people in this industry it is a difficult industry financially it's almost impossible to get finance right because there's such a high failure rate it's really hard to get banks and other institutions on board it is stupid crazy hours for not a lot of pay you know once again this whole celebrity I think it's really great what's happening with chefs and so many because it's bringing light to the profession, making it known, better appreciated.

But the downside effect is that it's giving young people starting in the business are really not necessarily the right image. I see kids coming out of cooking school and they want to have their TV show and their cooking book and it's like, no, no, you're going to sweat for years behind an oven before we even call you a chef, right? So it's a really hard, and those that really succeed, I think, are people that are truly, truly passionate. Yeah, I work like crazy. I work crazy hours, but I don't care.

I'm having fun, as long as I'm having fun. So it doesn't seem like work. Exactly. But what is, so the behind the scenes, though, you're constantly traveling, trying to find new bottles that you can bring to people. What's involved in the behind the scenes that people wouldn't necessarily think about from a Solmagné's point of you? Well, first of all, yeah, from an owner is like, I think one of the reasons why the industry has such a bad rap is because too many people go into the restaurant industry because they're great cooks. You know, they have friends, oh, you really good cook. You should open up a restaurant.

You need a manager to open up a restaurant because the profit margins are so, so tiny. If you're not constantly, you know, checking your numbers, constantly, constantly, constantly, you can make loads of money and, well, revenues. and close down because, you know, you're just going bankrupt. So you need solid management experience, I think, is the first thing before even having a, right? And then from a semi-perpective, yeah, it's just what people see is the service people on the floor, serving people, but then, like you said, there's all, you know, building up a wine program. So ordering the wines, buying wines, managing inventories, are you going to have a bite? the glass program, what's going to be your pricing, and then, you know, constantly working with

the kitchen for wine and food matching. Right, so you know what's good. So for us, it's different in Canada. I know importing wine can be a bit tricky. You can't just go over and import a case. Can you? What's the process for that? Well, you have to work in your province of operations. So this wine bar is in Quebec, so I can only deal with the SAQ. I cannot deal with the LCBO, even though or right across the river from Ottawa. I cannot buy directly from Ontario wine producers, which is ridiculous. I've always said,

my ultimate fight once I'm retired, whenever that happens, I will get on that case. It'll be very, very hard to make our wine laws change across the country. A lot of people are already working on it, but there's a tremendous amount of work to be done. I mean, all of our liquor laws are based on early 20th century, either from the prohibition era.

So it seems to me as a consumer of wine, I'm limited to the LCBO selection and what they've chosen for me and then getting anything outside of that becomes difficult and then it's almost like books, right? What they're choosing for me is high volume crowd pleasers, not necessarily

a variety of flavors or small. Well, there's one thing consumers should know and people into wine is that we're actually in a pretty great markets in terms of what's on offer. Because there's a whole, beyond the LCBO and the SAQ and the state monopolies, there's ways to get wine also.

It's not illegal. It's completely, it goes through. In Ontario, they call it consignment. In Quebec, we call it importation privy. It's basically the same thing. Most wineries here are represented by an agent, who does the importation, who does all the paperwork, but it's sold through the SAQ, right? but they have an agent, so there's agencies in every province

that represent the different wineries present on our market that work here, that they're the ones who will bring me samples, or invite me to a tasting, or send me information on that product. They're the ones making sure it's where they want it to be on the shelves and the stores and so on. And so those agents also have wines that are not distributed through the monopoly stores. And frankly, one of the reason why in the region here,

I wanted to be on the Quebec side and not on the Ontario side was because I wanted to work with the wines we have on offering Quebec. I have nothing to envy from cities like New York or London. I can basically get anything I want in this market through private importation. And private import is not only for restaurant owners, it's for everybody. I was just going to ask. Yeah, anybody can use it. And for years, it was thought, it was reserved to restaurants.

And unfortunately, actually, some unscriptless agents did that. They didn't make the prices known to the public so that the researchers could make horrific margins on those wines, right? Sell you a $10 bottle of wine for $60 because the price was not known from the public. But now, as consumers are more and more into wine, consumption is increasing, the whole wine scene is just very dynamic right now. There's more individuals that don't have restaurants that buy wines through these channels. The only inconvenient is because it doesn't transit through the stores.

It goes directly from the monopoly warehouses to the consumer. It's by the case. They don't open the cases. You have to buy a case of six or a case at 12. But as I normally say, that's not really a problem, right? Just get yourself some friends. Exactly. And like you said, wines for bringing people together.

You touched on something I want to talk about. briefly people associate price and value is that true in wine to what extent how do you think about that like everything else right like everything else you get what you pay for up to a certain extent just like watches like clothing like cars at one point you get into the luxury market there's no single bottle of wine in the world that costs more than about 30 or 40 dollars to produce so why are their bottles selling for 1500 a bottle or 2000 though you know you get into that luxury segment where you're starting to pay for rarity for reputation for all the

marketing that goes around it right there's there's you know one of the off the demand supply and demand you know and wine is like anything else we do pay in in our markets in Canada in general what we don't get is the dirt cheap wine is the wines you pay like two three four euro rose in a supermarket in France. Right, or two-buck-chuk in the U.S. That we don't get. But frankly, not usually the best wines anyhow, right?

And from, you know, $20 to $50, I think our pricing can actually be quite competitive. Regularly, I see wines that I can buy here for cheaper than what I see them, you know, at the producer in Italy or in France or when we're in that, especially that kind of $30 to $50 range. and then yeah of course there's wines that are $2,000 a bottle or more but that's again we've crossed over to the luxury good department it's not wine as food anymore right it's it's wine as a collector's item have you ever tasted something that changed you changed you as a person and like the world didn't look the same after having it I've I've tasted a lot of things that made me feel really good And the more you taste, the better you feel, right? But no, even without going into that factor of the effects of alcohol. But there's just wines that, yeah, they just move you.

And that's, I think, what I look for the most in wines. I used to, and it was all part of the learning process, right? So many people see me, oh, yeah, you are the one taking the... I filled up, I don't know how many notebooks during my life, taking notes on every single wine I would taste that would go to a wine. wine fair, but I was writing, writing, writing, writing. Now my tasting technique, I mean, sometimes it's that precise, it has to be when I'm training for competitions or things like that, but for buying purposes or for simply, more simple evaluation purposes, I just taste the

wine and pay attention to how it makes me feel. I look for liveliness in wine, for something I often say of a wine when wines are really this wine is just dead it's not speaking to me it's not and that's often very manipulated wines again there's nothing wrong with them

technically they're perfectly sound but they don't have a soul they don't move you they don't speak to you and a lot of wine I mean the consumption would also be about the romance I would imagine like the wine maker and the craftsmanship that goes into it and when you start thinking about the mechanics of mass produced wine

or wine that is manufactured to taste a certain way, you lose that. Yeah, exactly. And we could go on for hours and hours about the values are not of blind tasting, right? Because knowing the story behind changes, yes, it can influence you, right? Just like, you know, when you're tasting an expensive wine, you might rate it higher because it's expensive and prestigious, although we try really, really hard not to do that. So blind tasting in those cases is good. But sometimes I've, you know, evaluated certain wines quite poorly, tasting them blind because they were kind of out of context and not in the right place.

And had I known what they were, what the winemaker was trying to do, I would have had a better understanding, right? Well, so much of our understanding comes from context. Exactly, right? And again, that's what I think is great about wine. It's all those, you know, and I love. imperfections. I always say perfection is boring, right? When something is so almost asepticized,

is that a right word? Something that's so clean that it's soulless, right? It's too technically perfect, right? I think in wine, in people, beauty lies in the faults.

I have to be careful saying that. I don't want to... Well, it's as imperfections that I care. I don't want to say that a wine is is good because it's faulty. No, a wine should not be faulty. It should be good. Right?

But it should have character. Exactly, right? And that's one of the ways that you get character. Yeah, yeah. By not having this perfectly technical, except of size wine that, you know, all the processes you've used have basically stripped all the character and the life out of it.

So how do you look at a wine menu when you go into a restaurant that's not a wine bar that's not known for their wine, but you want to have a bottle because you're there with your friends? Yeah. How do you go the evaluating that from, you know it's not going to be sort of chilled, you know it's. But I scroll through the list and right away you see, you know, somebody who's from the trade knows right away. You look at the, you go through it and you look at the producers. And is it all only industrial, big, you know, producers or is there some interesting stuff in there?

And nobody knows everything. I mean, there's, you can be a specialist of a certain region. there's so many producers, you know, even if you're a Burgundy specialist or a Kiankei specialist, you never know everybody that's making wine in that area. It's just so, that's fascinating. That's great, right? We're never done discovering. So did you try something new or do you go with what you know?

Like, is there any hacks for the consumer going in? Well, I won't try something. I don't know if I see it's mainly industrial, right? Right. If I see a few interesting producers, well, then I'll start talking out. first thing. Ask the staff there. They know, right? That's one way to, for the consumer to make good use of the staff in a restaurant. Do you ever ask them if the wine is good or do you ask them different questions? Different questions. I mean, asking if the wine is good? I always thought

that was a bit weird and almost insulting when consumers go in a restaurant. So how, you know, is your state good or is your question you get, right? I know, I know. But who will honestly tell you, no, it sucks. Exactly. Oh, that's horrible. I know I just recommended it. Yeah. Um, no. But, Again, you know, if it's all industrial producers, I know it's not really worth talking to anyone because nobody has put any heart into making this wine list. Because it's probably been made by the rep of one of those, you know, big producers or... And sometimes still, I shouldn't say that because sometimes there's staff working in restaurants

that, okay, that's the place they found a job. They don't necessarily agree with the wine list, but, you know, that's where they're working. And so just chat with them and find out, you know, find out quickly from their attitude, from if they're, because it could be little gems in the making, you know, and in terms of staff and in terms of wine. So if, always scouting. If I'm at home and I don't have a wine fridge, I think I just want to make sure I understand this, you would recommend taking a red and putting it in almost like an ice bath for five or ten minutes. There's a super simple rule. 20 minute rule. What is the 20 minute rule?

Take your whites out of the fridge 20 minutes before serving them and put your reds in the fridge 20 minutes before serving them. In case of doubt, just do that. That's an awesome. That's a very basic thing and it will work for most, right? And in the summertime, when it's super hot, it's 30 degrees outside, you're always better to have the wines a bit more chill, too cold than too warm. Because they'll heat up as here.

Exactly. They'll heat up and they'll take a degree per minute once they're in the glass, right? So they heat up pretty quickly. If the wine's too warm, you know, other than putting ice cubes into it, which isn't great, there's not much you can do. I'm cognizant of your time. I just want to circle back to the Wine Atlas again. Yeah.

Do you recommend going through that and learning about the regions by then going to the LCBO or the liquor store and then getting bottles from that region? Exactly. There's nothing I like more than reading a book on a certain wine region and sitting with a glass of a wine. When I read about a certain whiner region, it actually makes me want to try it, right? Reading in wine, it's like a match made in heaven. Exactly. So you're reading on Burgundy, go grab a bottle of Burgundy and, right?

And will you grab the same producer in different years and taste them at the same time, like in 2012, 2013? Yeah, I mean, those kind of tastings are super educational, right? But it's not always easy to do because usually there's one vintage out on the market. So that's something you can do when you visit producers, right? But so take your book, pick your region, whatever, read on Burgundy, go buy a Burgundy, but then organize a tasting with friends, right? Again, it's all about coming together, and it's going to be fun when you're sitting there with your book and gicking out all alone, but it'll be even more fun when you can, okay, let's, okay, today, get a little group together. People are just making up tasting groups, and you don't need to have any great knowledge. You're all going to learn together, right?

But, you know, pick a region and ask everybody to bring a wine from that region, and, okay, that day, you're going to be presented. That's a great idea. read up on it and give us like a 10, 15 minute I love that overrun of what the region is and let's taste these wines to go. How do I become a member at all of these? You'll give your own.

It's easy. Just get some friends. Last question. Is there anything that I can do if I do start a wine tasting group that would make a big difference that probably would take a while to figure out that's different about how you approach it

in terms of stay away from certain things? Yeah, well see, if you really want to learn Again, I can't stress enough the importance of having rigor and the methodology and a certain discipline, right? Because, of course, alcohol comes into playing at one point, you know. The learning goes out the window. Everybody's just too happy to make any sense, right? Which is also a good outcome. Yeah, exactly.

Spitting is not a bad thing, right? It's one of the first things we learn how to do, spit wine. It allows you to taste 50 wines and wine. I just can't do that. I have this aversion to it. You have, what's important to stress is that the learning process is different than the case. You will get everything exactly the same out of the wine except for the effect of the alcohol, right?

Your appreciation of it, the evaluation of the body, of the structure, of the acidity, the tannins, everything, the aromas, the taste, spit it out or swallow it. Same thing, except for the effects of the alcohol, right? So when you're doing your official tasting with your friends, it doesn't have to be, don't, you know, make it. next time you're having a dinner party to say okay we'll start half an hour earlier everybody brings a bottle let's make it a theme like they just do pinot noir let's just do burgundy let's just do argentina whatever everybody brings a wine and okay so we're tasting them we're learning we're trying to and again get get some help from you'll find somebody's you'll find wine consultants in stores that are super talented and more than happy to share and give you a few

pointers on okay here's what you should do you need a tasting grid okay here's a good okay something to go by but that's super easy to find if you do a little bit of research and have it validated by somebody who knows what they're talking about because like everything else there's a lot of you know useless information out there yeah so and that's it well thank you so much this has been absolutely fascinating thank you thank you hey guys this is Shane again just a few more things before we wrap up you can find show notes at Farnhamstreetblog.com slash podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G.com slash podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript.

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