The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish - #120 Chris Bosh: Hunger and Greatness

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Two-time NBA champion and 2021 Basketball Hall of Fame inductee Chris Bosh goes in-depth on the skills it takes to become a winner on the basketball court and in life. On this episode Bosh discusses the rare combination of talent and hunger, emulating others before becoming your own person, individual success vs. team success, the subjective traits that set championship teams apart, what it means to lead by example, where confidence comes from, and so much more.   Bosh is widely regarded as one of the best big men of his generation and was part of the Basketball Hall of Fame’s celebrated Class of 2021. An 11-time NBA All-Star and 2008 Olympic Gold medalist, Bosh won two NBA titles with the Miami Heat after being drafted fourth overall in the 2003 NBA Draft by the Toronto Raptors. He spent 13 seasons in the NBA and is the author of the 2021 memoir, Letters to a Young Athlete.   -- Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/   Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/   Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yeah, when you put that NBA in your chest, it's different. When we always had jokes like, yeah, that popcorn, once that popcorn gets to poppin, it's a different, it's a different show. Think about it. Do you smell popcorn like that at high school basketball games? Kind of, but not really. Popcorn, people are here to see the show. So now it's about performance.

It's about consistency. And it's about doing your job and making sure you're helping this team win. And if not, there's a problem. People will move. people get traded. Man, it's professional now. Welcome to the Knowledge Project podcast. I'm your host, Shane Parrish.

This podcast sharpens your mind by helping you master the best of what other people have already figured out. If you're listening to this, you're missing. out. If you'd like special member-only episodes, access before anyone else, transcripts, and other member-only content, you can join at FS.blog slash tribe. Check out the show notes for a link. Chris Bosch is here today, one of the best to ever play basketball. He's an 11-time NBA All-Star, a two-time world champion, NBA Hall of Famer, and Olympic gold medalist. Originally drafted by the Toronto Raptors' fourth overall in the NBA draft, he also played for the Miami Heat, where he won

two world championships. This episode isn't really about sports as much as it's about life. Chris had his playing days cut short by a freak medical condition. There was no farewell game. There was no last shot that he knew of. And he had no idea when his last game was going to be. We talk about the rare combination of talent and hunger, emulating others before becoming your own person,

individual versus team, the subjective things that set championship teams aside, self-doubt, what it means to lead by example, where confidence comes from, and so much more. It's time to listen and learn. Where did your love of basketball come from? It came from my father. I watched. He would take us to the recreation centers on weekends,

and he played in the church leagues quite a bit. You know, he was a very active dad. And then, you know, even as he didn't have time for doing those things, we still would go, like, to the park, play basketball. Pretty much when I saw Michael Jordan in 91, 92, every time I went over my grandmother's house in Dayton, Ohio for the summer, the Bulls would be playing. And I thought that was so fascinating that the same team was playing. And then they get a trophy. And later on, I learned that just, oh, this is, oh, this is. champagne that they're spraying around and not only that it was everybody watching or huddled around

the TV watching the TV like my dad and his friends and you know any any any little boy uh anything that the dad does is the thing to do right yeah i saw those things i retained those images and really i just the feeling too once i felt once i felt what i felt when i watched these things like the whole, I felt like the whole world disappeared. You know, if we're watching the finals game, late night, I just felt like it was me and the TV. It could have been 100 people there. I mean, my whole family was there sometimes. It just felt like it was me and the TV. So, like, it was just in there. And once I saw that, I said, okay, yeah, I want to, I'll just do that. I want to do that. So, yeah, that's it. A lot of talented kids lack hunger. Where does the hunger come from? And how do you

keep going back to that well, even when you don't feel like it. Like, when you're doing suicides in the gym, like, how do you keep going back to that? I did suicides early. That's like a good practice to shock them early. You know what? I wanted to, I just wanted to be the best that I could be. That was important to me early. And to be honest with you, I realized how you realize the difference in treatment, to be honest with you, when you're playing basketball or not only playing basketball, but you're excelling in the classroom. You put those things together. I learned very quickly. The first time I played basketball in front of people was in the fourth grade. I distinctly remember to this day, people, oh, Chris is good. I mean, people always call me Chris

Bosch, my whole life. And so it's like, oh, Chris Bosch can play. Chris Bosch can play basketball. And I was so interesting. I had never heard that before because up until that point, you're just a student. You just kind of mix in. But after that, I said, okay, yeah, I want to do that. And then I kept getting the confirmations. And the exterior treatment, I suppose, that's what kind of aided, like, okay, that goes along with how I feel. I feel good about it.

And then people are smiling when they see me play or see me after a win or even a loss sometimes, you know? It was a good feeling. How did you deal growing up with all those eyes on you? Like, everybody's watching you. I think back to some of the stuff I did as a teenager and I'm like, oh, shit, man. Yeah, it's tough, man. I mean, even looking back on it, it is crazy, right? Yeah.

And I can't even really explain to you because those are the times to make mistakes. Right. Those are the times to be like, no, no, no, you can't do this. But for me, I was already so focused. I wanted nothing more than to be a basketball player. That's all I ever wanted to be. And so every inch of my being was towards that goal. I had other likes. I had friends. We went to parties and all kind of stuff. But I went to a tremendously different amount of parties than my friends. You know, I didn't, I had my focus. I had what I wanted to do.

And so I went, I went all for it once I started. There's a couple things I want to talk to sort of about the high school experience here. And I think the first is in your book, you sort of talk about you love playing, you know, the wealthy kids from the prep schools because they just didn't want it, I wanted as bad as you. Talk to me about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, you were asking about hunger. Those were some of the things that I was hungry about. That's that inspired, lit the fuse for me.

When I say those things, and it's no knock against them because now my kids are those kids. Isn't how, in life funny? You know, I knew what we had or we didn't have. We did not have the resources, right? And I love nothing more than the summertime so I could go and play summer league basketball and see these Texas schools, which are like malls. You know, they've got McDonald's and Chick-fil-A in there for lunch. It's crazy.

It's like mind-bottling things. And then you go to the gym and they've got a weight room. They have all these amenities, you know. And to be honest with you, I heard kids that weren't appreciative of it. They could only find the faults in those things. And so when I saw that, I was like, man, I want this. You know, I want to, I want air conditioning in my gym. That's something.

That's something we should all want. And the fact that they weren't appreciative of it, it just drove me more. I mean, yeah, they had the things that I wanted. They had the PlayStation, you know. They had their own room. I didn't get my own room until I was 17. You know, I shared a room with my brother my whole life. I mean, small stuff, right?

Like, if we're playing a team and even if I beat you, you get to go and have some pizza, I'm going to eat leftovers at home. You know, nothing wrong with that. It's fine, but I want pizza. You know, I want those things that are out there. And it was just such a motivating factor because basketball was always the ultimate equalizer. It didn't matter, you know, your parent status or your status or if you had a car or not, when we play on this game, I'm going to take it out on you. Yeah, that drove me. I wanted those things that they had. So I wanted to exercise. that feeling of getting out my frustration and showing how bad I want them. And then when you got those things, so you kept going, like as an adult, you know, playing professionally drafted forth overall by the Raptors, millions of dollars, now all of a sudden your environment is all those things. How do you still keep going?

You know, I never, it was never about those things. I never, to be honest with you, I never had a concept of money. I do now as I'm older. Of course, I have kids and bills that need paying and taxes and stuff like that. You become more aware as a citizen. But at that time, I hustled for everything I had. I was joking earlier today. I tell people like, yo, the NBA was my fourth job.

You know, it wasn't my first job. It wasn't. It was just the amount of money being talked about was so astronomical. There's no reason to talk about it. I want it to be like Kobe. I want it to be like Michael. I want it to be like KG. Now it's about the glory.

It's about the name on my back of my jersey. And, you know, it's about me establishing who I am and achieving and continuing to achieve great things. Because, yeah, now I'm here and I see that from so many young athletes. They make the mistake of just saying, I made it, and they don't have to work anymore. No, you have to continue to work. As a matter of fact, it gets harder. Because you're making millions of dollars, take money out the equation. You can't complain about money anymore, even if people are still in it from you.

Okay, put that to the side. You can't talk about being happy anymore because everybody assumes that you're happy. So for me, it was just about putting everything into the game and hopefully getting some out of it. Sure. You got five kids, right? I have five children. Yeah. How do you instill hunger in them?

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That is a great question, man. Right now, what I do, I want to make sure I encourage what their likes. And sometimes it takes a little reverse psychology. You know, I had coaches that did that to me like, oh, well, if you don't want to work today, it's fine. You probably, yeah, sit down. You're tired. You're tired. Hey, get him a boo.

He got a boo. Sit him, you know, sit her down. She's not feeling well a day. And, you know, sometimes that works, but that will be a continuous thing that I have a challenge. And that will be their challenge as individuals, you know, finding that hunger. For me, yeah, it was a bit of motivation, you know, going after some of those material things that you want and saying, okay, chasing that ideal and saying, oh, if I just made this, I could take care of your family. Nobody wants to take care of a family, you know, to be honest, you know, unless you're a father or a mother, you know, but taking care of your family, they can take care of themselves, you know. Let me take care of me. You eventually get to that point. That'll be something that they'll have a challenge with. And I look forward to trying to help them figure it out, you know, because, yeah, I don't have all the answers. Not telling them that. I don't have all the answers. You asking that question, I've since writing this book, really, I've, understood that. I mean, they have their own room. That's a level of understanding that I don't

have. And so I try to, you know, just be patient with them. And you know what? They teach me quite a bit. So I'm sure that they'll teach me the way of how they need to be fed and what type of hunger they want to pursue. People called you KG in high school because you wanted to emulate Kevin Garnett so badly. And I'm curious as to the relationship between emulation of somebody, like one of your heroes, and at what point does that turn into creation on your own? I think when you emulate so much to where it just becomes a part of you, then you're doing it without thinking about it. Then you're able to put your own sauce on it. It's going to happen anyway, because your personality will come out. I never encourage people to just try to copy.

everything, but copy the things you like, you know, and put them together and it makes it makes you you because we all have influences if we're lucky. But, you know, for me, when I saw him just having the face-up game, like that was the thing, the face-up game, the mid-range jumper, handling the ball in the full court, the finishing, that's what I tried to emulate. You just start saying, okay, well, I'm left-handed. So, and I like that. get here. So since I'm left-handed and this is where I am, this is how I'm going to do it now. And you have to take your own data, right? The data that you gather from playing in the games or being in the boardroom or doing that speech, you want to take the things that work and take the things that

don't work. Just because you emulate, it doesn't mean it's all going to work. Right? So you continue to take things that work and put your own spin on it. And, you know, I was always confident that, yeah, naturally, it would just kind of just show through in my playing. Because the ultimate, you know, pinnacle for me as an athlete was just to go out there and express myself without thinking. You know, that was the holy grill for me. And so I just wanted to take in all that knowledge, but then come approach each situation with an empty cup and just fill it and then just empty it again and just

go through that continuous process. you're a Texas boy how'd you end up at Georgia Tech I wanted to I wanted to play in the ACC I wanted to play in an ACC to me that was the best league short of the NBA most of my heroes had gone there it had the storied colleges

it had tobacco road had the rivalries and I was into academics as well and the coach Paul Hewitt at the time He was a black man. I felt it was necessary to play for somebody who could understand me a little more. And he did.

And it was just a natural fit. I had been to Atlanta, I had family in Atlanta, been to Stone Mountain, Atlanta many times. And it was a place that was familiar. And so it was like the perfect mix, you know, academics, ACC ball. It just seemed right. And when I took my visit there, I was. was where my heart was. It just felt right. And I can't tell you why, but for whatever reason, I was listening to my gut way back when I was a teenager. So I'm one of the lucky ones. And,

and, you know, I made the right decision. When you make decisions off the court, how much of that would you say is your gut versus reflection and sort of thinking a bit more, slowing down that thinking and thinking through it a bit more? I do, I do all gut, man. Have you, um, it's this book, I believe is by Malcolm Gladwell called Blink. And I'm so related to the idea that you know the answer. When you're asked a question, if you don't know, you don't know. But if it's like, oh, where are you going to go to school? You know.

You know where you feel. Even if you feel it's like, ah, nah, not that one. What we do is that secondary thought, that third thought, justifying well no i mean i should go here because it is closer to home that's when we start tricking ourselves but that blink that minute when we know like yeah i'm going here this is where i feel i you know i couldn't describe it but i was in tune with it you know even if i didn't know what it was i had the knowledge of it so you know it just seemed natural for me because i wanted to go to the NBA. You've got to go to the ACC because that's where all the talent is. And you've

got to play right away. And Georgia Tech needs this forward. It's a pretty good school, academically sound. You're going to play right away. It just made sense to me. But I'm, you know, I go with all gut. And I say that because before I educate myself, I take in all the information I can. And then eventually you have to make a decision. But yeah, you all. always go with the gut, man. You know, it's a reason why we have that as humans. And play you did, man. You ended up fourth overall selection by the Toronto Raptors. Did you know they were going to take you? I knew, but I didn't know. I had hunches. I remember meeting scouts. And believe it or not, Miami had the fifth pick. Oh, that's interesting. And a lot of people know that because

they could took D, but they were looking at me as well because, you know, a seven foot kid that can run and jump. Yeah, we're going to look at him. And they kept telling me like, yeah, you won't be there. Yeah, we take it, but you won't be there just from people I met along the way. And, you know, they made the right pick for their franchise, obviously. But yeah, at the time, you know, you want to know, but then it's so incredible just to even be the fourth pick. For me, like, okay, yeah, Brian, yeah, sure, he's the best player. And then Mello, yeah, sure. I mean, we played them. They they beat the crap out of us. He's pretty good. But to think of yourself as a high, in high regard, that's a different ball game. So I had to get used to that. People think when you're

drafted, it's over. Like you made it. You're good. But such a dangerous thought. Talk to me about the difference between college ball and pro ball and the work difference. Man, it's professional now. before in college you had class you had obligations that you had to fulfill to be able to be on that team well in pro basketball

there's nothing else everything is dedicated toward that time and you give more time actually I thought I was putting in work at Georgia Tech and I was but when you've got buses and passports

to keep up with and, you know, flights to catch and food to eat, you know, and then, you know, the obligation for being a public figure, those start to come in a thing, your days, you know, those late night video game sessions, they kind of get axed a little bit because you're on the road now. Or, you know, you have obligations with your team to do an appearance. You know, it was the business changes. And you're very aware. of that. And so for me, yeah, that was the main thing for me, just like getting used to everything. And, yeah, when you put that NBA in your chest, it's different. When we always had jokes like,

yeah, that popcorn, once that popcorn gets to poppin, it's a different show. You know, you, when you smell that popcorn, it's time for the show. Think about it. Do you smell popcorn like that at high school basketball games? Kind of, but not really. Popcorn, people are here to see the show. It's about performance, it's about consistency, and it's about doing your job and making sure you're helping this team win. And if not, there's a problem. People will move. People get traded. You know, it's a harsh reality out there when you get into the pro levels.

And I would imagine if you think you made it at that point, you're not going to last more than a year or two. Man, I mean, and that's the thing. Like, I never want young people in that position to feel like, oh, I made it. And it is true. You did. Bravo. Excellent, excellent, excellent. Now that you've made it, get to work. Get to work, baby. I like the talk. Talk to me about the practices. Like, how do you relate the difference between basics? Like, to me, as an outsider, Tim Duncan was a master of the basics. He was just really, really good at the fundamentals. He made an entire career out of that. That's not to say he wasn't talented at all, but like he just had the foundation.

Yeah, the greatest of all time, right? But like how much in practice is it like you're trying to get too cute, too fancy, and you get away from the basics and then you've got to come back to it? You know, that's all about your work ethic and your personal taste and really just how the coaches take it. Eric Spostra, he always had a saying when we were in Miami, do not get bored with the process. because and you find and I think that's a huge part where greatness lies because yeah like you were saying yeah the fundamentals somebody will want to do something fancy let's say you do it in and out between the legs behind the back step back fade away three awesome somebody passes it to me I catch I shoot it three they count the same there is a mastery to staying within those

fundamentals. You know, Tim Duncan was known as the big fundamental. Kobe Bryant does not get enough credit for how fundamentally sound he was. And the most technical of the technicians was Michael Jordan. He was the most fundamentally sound player I've ever seen. Talk to me about that. Break that down for me. Well, I mean, just in the fact, if you ever watch him play, look where he catches the ball, look at his pivot, his footwork, the way he shoots it, the way he keeps the ball in the pocket, snaps the wrist every time, his ball handling. He went Air Jordan when it was in the air. That's when his fundamentals allowed him to get fancy. People saw the fancy parts. It's like, yeah, that's the last half second. You missed the whole 20 seconds of him just dismantling

somebody with angles and footwork. And it's a reason that he was able to be so successful. And yeah, I mean, you know, that's always like a young player's thing, and I went through the same thing as a young player. Like, nah, you want to, and I fight this every day myself. You want to do the fancy stuff. You know, you want to get right to the fancy. You want people to go ooh and I. But at the end of the day, it's about being successful and about putting the ball in the hoop.

That's the object of basketball. Fundamentally, wouldn't you want to be as efficient as possible? Because then you have more energy. And it's like, okay, yeah, while you guys are tired, now I'll do the fancy stuff. yeah it makes it easier yeah did social media change the game at all like just going back to that last half second michael jordan in the air that's a shareable clip everybody sort of wants that attention that spotlight but there's also a whole mental health angle i would imagine to being a player and social media it's changed you know and there is um there is an aspect to it that

i do not understand i do but then i didn't grow up in it you know my My experience with social media, I remember social media on the desktop. Once we got to Miami, that's kind of when the supernova sonic boom happened. And then the video and the ability to have the bandwidth to share all these things. That's when those things happened. I was disinterested by then. I wasn't all the way in. I was more concentrated on my craft, you know.

It's different now. Everybody wants that moment, but do you want to put in the work? That'll be the easiest thing you do is to pick up a trophy. Now, do you want to go through everything in between that? And then once you're successful, do you think that that's going to make your life perfect? It will not. So I love the discussion around mental health because you don't want to be in a position to where I'd be like, man, I didn't even really enjoy this ride the whole time.

It was just everybody's happier than me. and I'm the one that won. I did all the work and stuff like this. And sure, we got the team and we did that. But I don't feel like it's fulfilled me like I thought it would. And, you know, you have to find those reasons to play the game or whatever your game is. You have to find those reasons for yourself. I have to ask as a Canadian, you were Mr. Canada.

You had our entire country almost on your shoulders playing for the rafters. Yeah. And then you broke everyone's heart. You went to Miami, man. What happened? Talk to me about that decision. Yeah, you know, it was hard. I tell people, it was hard. It was very difficult. And, you know, I try to tread lightly around these things because a lot of people's feelings are always involved, but I try to tell the truth. I even had people come to me like, how could you say that? Like, so you don't want me to tell what my experience was.

Like, come on. Of course you want to win a championship. Yeah. Of course I want to win a championship, you know, and it was right then and there. We had the opportunity to go down to Miami. But that was the main thing. It was always about basketball. I tell people this all the time. I had, I had went and seek knowledge from guys who have been through this and had this whole decision to make. And I was just on the fence. I didn't know whether I wanted to come or go. And the Raptors were doing everything they could. Yeah, they, as an organization, they're telling me everything that I want to hear. They're doing everything that they feel that would make me happy to compete and it wasn't you know it wasn't about money that was the thing that messed me up

yeah it wasn't about notoriety you know it wasn't about the adoration from fans because i i've had guys in the NBA come and visit me in Toronto when they see the fan reaction they look at me and be like what the hell is going on here you know and i tell them you know i can't explain it they love basketball. Thankfully, they love me. It's been amazing. And I was that guy, but, you know, I wanted, I wanted to win. I wanted to, I told you, like, Michael and Kobe were my heroes. And I wanted to be able to raise that trophy. And my experience in Toronto taught me how hard it is to win in this league. And yeah, it's cool being Mr. Basketball in Canada. You know what else isn't cool being Mr. Basketball in Canada and you didn't make the playoffs. You know, and it's like, man, we just kept coming up short and kept coming up short. And I just, I saw an opportunity and I took it. There's this Bill Belichick quote that the Miami super team sort of brings to mind here. And at one point, he answers to a reporter that, you know, he's not interested in assembling the most talented team. He's interested in assembling the best team. What's your reaction to that? I mean, yes. It doesn't necessarily mean that, yeah, the best team is talented or the most talented team is the best, right? But in our case, the best team was the most. That was our goal. Well, you lost to the spurs too, right? So like you guys won twice and you lost.

We lost the first championship. The first and the last championship that we competed in, we lost. So that doesn't guarantee anything. A lot of people. You know, because it's a sexy thing to talk about, super teams, and, you know, people can point the blame at us for that. Because, yeah, we did introduce a different way of thinking in free agency. It's just a creative way of winning. Yeah, it's just a creative way of winning. And it's always been like that. What am I going to wait for a trade to happen, a miracle trade, and say, oh, we're going to win one. That's two early 90s, late 80s.

You know what I mean? that was a nostalgic idea. The actual realization of business is that, hey, these teams, they spend a lot of money. There's a reason that the salary cap parameters are in place. There's rules to this. And at the end of the day, do you want to win or do you want to go home? That's eventually what I came to. And, you know, you win it by any way. A lot of people like look at Yannis, Somebody, it was interesting. They said, yeah, you did it the hard way. And I'm like, you know, let's not, let's not take a crap on every champion before with all due respect to what those guys did, which has been amazing.

Anyway, is the hard way. It's just your way of doing it. How do you get it done? And on top of that, nobody picked Milwaukee to win anyway. So that's theirs to enjoy and reflect on. We made it happen a totally different way. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know? How hard was it to learn to blend these three superstars on the same team?

Was that instant chemistry or did that take a lot of work? It took a lot of work. I think we all came in with the intent of saying like, oh, yeah, this is how it's going to go. And it was not like that. And that's even in LeBron's shoes. That's even in DeWain's shoes. You know, we had to all do different things. And we all have to play roles.

Leading scorer is a role. The second leading score is a role. That doesn't make it easy. Matter of fact, they're going to, you know, the first two people, people, you know, point out will be them to if we're not successful. You know, my thing was to find that gray area and sometimes be magnificent like I can be, but for the most part, bring your work hat, bring your boots. This is what we're doing today.

This is the Miami Heatway, and this is how we're going to play basketball. but figuring out how to gel together as a team. It was difficult, but it always is. You know, there's sacrifices that have to be made. You have to check your ego in one way or another. You have to be a leader to ensure that you guys can be successful. Aside from the objective talent, what would you say are the subjective factors that set the championship teams that you are part of apart from the other teams in your career? I would say the thought from day one coming in, say, hey, this is, you know, the ethos of the team, the identity of the team and the organization.

And I'm not trying to knock, you know, any of the prior organizations before, which Toronto is a championship organization, right? We all have to get better. But having that, that was the main thing that I found. Like Pat Riley said it best, it's either winning or misery coming with that. idea from the first day in camp. And then, you know, the day-to-day work, knowing that we need to win, we're going to win, and this is how we're going to win, and having that attitude. And even for myself as a leader in Toronto, those were things that I had to learn eventually, you know, setting the tone, uh, being that person, you know, that that has to lead these, uh, group of

teammates into, into something, hopefully, uh, that'll materialize into something. But I, saw how the attitude, just the attitude, in embracing the tough situations, if you watch the finals or watch playoff basketball, any championship, in any sport, every team goes to a moment where they want to quit every time. You know, that is indescribable. How about not quitting? How about you keep doing your job? And matter of fact, let's do it even better. Let's turn it up a notch when it gets hard. That was the main difference that I saw that was really a difference. a huge, huge, had a huge profound, you know, impact on me, you know, just seeing like, okay, I've learned to use cliches, right? I, you know, used to hate them now. I love them.

When the tough get going, going get tough. Boom, there you go. Take that witch. I gave that to you for free. Take heed to that one, man. What do you think makes an effective coach? Being prepared, being ready, having a game plan, and being, being ready to deviate from that game plan whenever, if it's not working. There's that fine balance of sticking with what you said you were going to do and just, all right, guys, hey, that game plan, throw it out. This is what we're doing now. You have to know, you kind of have to know, in my opinion, when to deviate from that.

But I think overall, just someone who can connect with their team can communicate effectively with each member of the team, and that's including their staff as well. And that can get everybody on the same page and keep everybody on the same page. I think that's really what a coach does, because at the end of the day, the players are going to go out there, and it's about the players. It's nothing a coach can do outside of saying the right things to get the right response out of their players. Other than that, it's just all preparation and, you know, thinking ahead.

Is there a difference in your mind between losing and being beaten? It's all the same to me. It's all the same. A loss is a loss, man. And that's to say, you know, I never... Hold on for a sec, because I remember this thing. It was a couple years ago that, and I forget what happened, but it's sort of like losing is, you know, you didn't put in the work. Getting beaten is like the other team was better than you.

And like, yeah, objectively speaking, you're still losing either way. But is there a difference between like, man, if I practiced harder this week, we probably wouldn't have lost that or? I mean, you said the word already right there. You said we wouldn't have lost. Yeah, yeah. We lost. We are losing.

And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want that to have a negative connotation on the thing. You know, and I was brought up in a harsher reality when I was, you know, being taught the game of basketball around extremely competitive people. So there are very extreme competitive thoughts that I have and myself, but this is how I think. Loss is a loss, you know, but whether it's by one or 100, I've, you know, one of, that makes me think like somebody like,

would you rather lose like on a last second shot or just like lose by a hundred? They said lose by a hundred. I said, man, I'm losing on the last second shot. shot that doesn't even mean you had a shot if you didn't have a chance like you won't even want a chance you know I'm that person and yeah loss is a loss if you get beat okay a loss yeah and that's okay and that's okay you got beat that is a loss it's a win column and a loss at the end of every game you either win or you lose you can take whatever you want to whatever lessons you want to afterwards but let's not

let's keep it. Let's keep apples to apples, orange, the oranges. Loss and wins. Okay, that doesn't mean that doesn't unnecessarily, you know, speak to your character or speak to your approach. And yeah, if you're not successful, if you lose, that doesn't, you know, mean that you can't take away. Well, if I would have done those things, no, no, no, how about we do those things this time? And how about we don't lose the game this time? How about we win that joke? That's what I love. And then win it. You know, that's the attitude that's required to be successful, in my opinion, to go for the win. And if you don't, all right, I'll be back.

If you don't, I'll be back, you know, until I win. And then when I win, we're going to keep it going. How do you get out of a losing streak? Like, you had five game losing streaks. I think you had a little, a few that were longer than that. Like, I've had 10 game losing streaks, dude. So, like, talk to me about, like, what does it feel like to be in the midst of that? how do you turn that ship around and how do you how do you go forward you want to know one of the

main differences and this is going to be a secret that's going to go over a lot of people's head and it's so simple to be like ah yeah whatever that doesn't work i'm telling you listen to me what i'm about say have you ever watched a game any game baseball basketball volleyball football and it's that moment where the team that always loses they're winning right they're winning the game. And then they get to that point in the game. You said, up, here we go again. Have you ever experienced that? Yeah. You watched the Raptors, so you probably watched us go through it a lot. The secret is to continue doing what you're supposed to do, not worry about, not to slouch the shoulders if the team ties it up after you've been up 20 points. It's about the next

evolution. It's about moving on to the next play. It's about when you or your teammates make a mistake, hey, it's all right. Let's get the next one. Or if you make a mistake, not to slouch your shoulders and start feeling sorry for yourself. Nobody likes a pity party. Everybody hates pity parties. Trust me, I tried to throw them. Nobody came. So as opposed to saying, what was me, how about you get back on defense? You know? You know, how about you dive into those fundamentals of what makes a team a team? How do we win this game? How can I bring the right attitude?

You know, those things alone will tremendously turn things around. Because I'm telling you, man, that part and those who know will know be like, but that part in the game where it's like, oh, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. It's like, bro, it's the first quarter. You know, and even if we do lose, so what? How about we just do the things we're supposed to do? Yeah.

You're a fan. How about you cheer and we'll worry about the outcome later? But don't look it in the eye and be like, oh, boy, here we go, and find reasons to escape, not trying. Did you watch the switching sports here just for a second, but did you watch the Super Bowl where the Patriots came back from 28 to 3 against the Falcons? Yeah, it was incredible. Yeah. And one of the things that I noticed about that was Brady never looked worried. I mean, he looked upset, but he didn't look like defeated. Right. He didn't look. But you have to play the game, right? Why would you look defeated if the game is not over? Brady's job at that time and every person on that team, their job was to say, all right, hey, it's 283. We suck right now. What do we need to do to change the outcome? That does not, as shouldn't, you know, dictate your effort and your mental capacity to be able to be like the game of football, you want to score a touchdown and you want to stop the other team, point blank, period.

So if you're not into that, then you're doing yourself a disservice. If you're not thinking about that wholeheartedly, you're doing yourself a disservice. And it's not his job to come out there and be like, oh, well, let's just, they're the best team ever. We're losing. Let's just get out of it. No, no, no, no. you look at that and say that's the maniac in the confident person say okay hey we're only down 25 points guys if we get a score and then a stop and then a score hey that's what you need i'm i'm looking for that

person that's going to find me a reason that we should win yeah you know that's what it's about not saying you don't need to be looking at the scoreboard anyway because we're getting smashed so stop looking up there and let's get into this game because, you know, they're still, I'm sure they were like, hey, I guarantee you one of the things they said, hey, there's plenty of football left, guys. I guarantee you that's one of the motifs that they were working with during that Super Bowl comeback. And then, guess what? You put yourself in a position, you stay down and you keep going. What did Atlanta do? They stopped. They probably were looking at the scoreboard and said, please just run out. Come on, just run out.

No, no, no, no, no. You play the game until it's over. Yeah, I loved his sort of the way that he just deprived. I remember just the camera angle on the sidelines, and I'm like, he's still in this game. Like, he's not, he hasn't checked out. Oh, yeah. And everybody's looking at you. He's looking at, they're looking at the leader. Like, what do we do, Tom? Hey, we do this. Hey, we look confident. Even if we lose, back straight, head up. Hey, you, you lost to a good team. Or you got beat by a good team. There's no shame in that. You shake.

their hand, you congratulate them, and you move on. But you keep that chest up and you keep those shoulders back and you keep that head up. But never, never, never slouch. I hate that. Talk to me about coming back. The first year in Miami lost the World Championship. Talk to me about what that offseason was like. I got married that off season. So it was a lot of planning, of course. That was one of the things that I felt really helped the team. That was like our kind of peeking our head out after we're all depressed and down and just saying, okay, man, we had a good time together. Man, that's all right.

But it was work, you know, work with a passion. And you're motivated. Motivated. Work with a passion. It's like, I'm not losing again. You remember that last drill? I kind of drug-assed a little bit last time. You know what I mean?

But, no, not this time. I'm gladly going into this work ethic, you know, during this workout. with the enthusiasm, with passion that I need to get going. One of my buddies, who's the assistant coach for the Lakers now, he was working me out back then. And he told me, like, I came down, the first day we met, I came down and I already had the film to break down what we were doing wrong in the finals.

And I had this move that I wanted to steal from dirt, and I couldn't figure it out. And so I pretty much gave him this task. Like, okay, yeah, I can't see it. Yo, let me know what you see. And that was our introduction to each other. Breakfast and film. Every day getting after it.

Because, you know, even if I was tired, as tired as I was, it couldn't hurt more than losing. You know what I mean? So I had to train my body and my mind. So when it got hard next time, I wouldn't give up. You know, I would continue to push through and I would get that loose ball. I would get that rebound. I would make that play instead of thinking. What if I don't make it or thinking about, oh, what does this mean? No, no, no. Just do it because you do it. And it's the game. And I, you know, we worked our way up to that. Didn't you win the next year? Yeah. Is that offseason, are you as hungry? That's the challenge. That's the true challenge that I found out. When we won that, and I've had people tell me this, yeah, anybody can do it once. And I said, oh, boy, here we go.

Now it's about staying at the top, baby. Anybody, yeah, any, and I truly do feel that too. And I mean, that's no offense to one-time champions. There is greatness in that. All I'm saying is there's more greatness into sustaining that. How can you sustain it? Can you? Can you?

You know, can you do those same drills that you did last preseason at the beginning? beginning as a team and not get bored that you're diving on the floor matter of fact you got to dive more now matter of fact there's less shots now there's more of a challenge now because it's harder uh to repeat as a champion because everybody knows your best punch everybody can see you coming and everybody's motivated to beat you and your team you know that was that was the true that's what we wanted we wanted to be one of the dynasty teams uh to be mentioned and that was a a part of it. And I know how I was in my head, but then I would have conversations. I remember I had a conversation, quick conversation with Bron. Not too long after the season. You know,

when you play the season and it's like, okay, guys, I see you in a, you know, two and a half months. I hit up Brian probably less than a month later and he said, yo, man, I've been working on my game and, yo, you should see this now. And I was working on mine too, but I'm like, okay, damn, I didn't think, okay, yeah, I got to get back in there. Yeah. It was. an individual, you know, competition between the team. We pushed each other to be the greatest that we could be as well. You know, there's a mode to that too. What does it mean to lead by example to you? And are there any examples that come to mind from your career where you sort of maybe led in a different way? Lead by example, I've truly learned how to lead by example being a father.

I thought it was about being early to practice and lifting before practice. is getting the shots up being the first one there and the last one to leave. And there are aspects to that. But I truly, truly understood it once I had children because they're watching every move that I make. And I want to make sure that I'm making a good move because I want to lead by example. I want to treat you nice on a day that I'm feeling bad. That's like to me, that's leading by example in the truest form because it's not about me. You know, it's not about how I feel particularly at that time. It's about our team.

It's about our family. It's about how you see me and your experience in this day. And just because I'm having a bad day doesn't mean I get to take it out on you. And I always say that any, you know, I always have the big saying like, no, this household is a sanctuary. We should be able to let the wall down. We cross these doors and we're on the same team. So let's watch how we talk to each other. let's watch how we treat each other.

And I truly did understand that once I became a parent for the fifth time. You know, getting these boys and girls to be on the same page and go after this one goal, which is just daily happiness. You know, that's something I take with me. And you can do hard things just because they're hard, right? But no, do the hard things when they're hard. Like, yeah, I'm tired. And I worked all day and I don't feel like doing anything.

Anything else, but if my boys and girls ask me, hey, dad, let's go for a hike. Oh, well, you said to lead by example, you said we got to walk outside every day. Let's go. And to me, that's what leading by example is. Where do you think confidence comes from? Man, that's a good question. I don't know, man. Because I can't tell you what gave me my confidence.

And the crazy part is, right, I can tell you what took my confidence away. I think we can all talk about that, right? The things that took it away. But, you know, for me, confidence is, it comes through putting work in. It comes through working on your craft. It comes through, I'm coming into this test confident because I busted my butt and I studied all week. I put the work in. And now I'm here, I'm confident.

And that doesn't mean I'm just like, oh, yeah, I'm a pass test. That's what in the book I try to like, that's the ego. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm a pass without studying. Yeah, that's the ego talking. Confidence is like, no. To me, confidence comes from work, you know, putting the work in, you know, attaining that goal. So I put in thousands of shots, thousands of dribbling drills, thousands of hours. So when I step on the court, I am confident that I can do this task that I've been assigned.

you mentioned the training yourself mentally what does that involve and how important is the mental aspect I mean it's everything to me um to me and there's you know it's a totally different thing but you have to be strong mentally to get to where you want to go there will be obstacles unforeseen obstacles as a matter of fact that you don't see coming and you have to be prepared for that and you know you're going to take a few punches I'm not going to sugarcoat that especially if you want to do something great, you know. So being able to continue to do that job, to continue to stay with the fundamentals, even when you feel like you should be doing more,

or to get your body out of bed when you don't feel like it. Those days when you don't feel like it, that's where the magic happens. And Kobe told me this, like, yo, you got to get in that day where you don't want to go in a gym, you got to go. You have to. because one of the things that helped me was to think like, okay, how many people are stopping now? How many people felt what I'm feeling right now? Nobody's looking. Nobody cares. Am I going to that gym or not? And you got to continue to do your job, do those things that you said

you were going to do to help you get there. Or if you have a mentor, have the trust and to say, okay, I'm going to do those things that you said you wanted me to do to be able for me to accomplish my goal. I like that. What are some of the lessons you learned from playing with LeBron James? Just being able to watch him, just enjoy himself being the best player in the world for years and years and years, to find that joy in the game, to have that confidence in what you're doing. But most of all, to work hard to put the work in. Anytime that I thought that I was putting the work in, him and Duane and Ray, they were always my reason to do more. And just their skill level and talent level and handling it with the grace that they've handled it with, you know,

there's a reason that people are successful and people, you know, continue to be successful. I was able to see up close for four years what that takes. And I'm not talking about off the court. That's a whole other monster. I'm just talking about in your craft, playing the game, loving the game, but working extremely hard at it, putting the time into your body, weight room routine, what you eat, how you act, how you move. But most of all, when it's time to play, you play the game. You know, LeBron plays the game with joy. You know, I've never seen so much joy being experienced by an individual. He definitely brings that to the game.

And so I tried to make sure I brought that to say, oh, man, man, he really loves playing this game. And this is just a great thing to watch. Let me make sure, you know, let me make sure I'm enjoying it too. Am I enjoying it today? Yeah, yeah, even if it's a grindy day, you know, there's those days. But at the end of the day, you have to be doing something to, to where you enjoy it. That stands to me as in like stark contrast to sort of the last dance and Michael Jordan,

who had that beautiful sort of quote on leadership, right? So he's like, so I push people when they didn't want to be pushed. So I made people work harder than they wanted to work. But you know what? That's what it meant to play on this team. And I set the bar. Kobe was very much so like that as well. He and, you know, that's no knock against those guys.

they played the game a certain way. You know, I don't know what it was like to play with Jordan, but I know what it was like to play with Brian. I don't know who had most cameras. I don't think it matters. But to play on that team that is on the balance beam of the NBA,

Kobe got five and Brian got four. Exactly. I know how hard it is to win one, not even two, just one. six as the player to lead the charge. I mean, that's a, and then two, three-peats. I've had my, you know, experience trying to three-peat. It's damn near impossible, man.

You know, we got the four finals in a row, and we had the shot, but boy, the spurs were pretty darn good that year, and they were motivated bunch of guys, and they played their asses off, you know, and we just didn't have it. We got all the way to the finals to understand that we weren't the best team. And that sucks. Looking at that, there's only so much that people can understand. They did a great job in telling the story. But those who know, which I'm blessed to be in that thing, to know that I don't know,

it's like some other, bro. That's another mental landscape, bro. 3P is something else, dude. Unfathomable. I remember your playing career was, you didn't know your last shot. There was no farewell tour. Right. You know, it ended in a doctor's office just saying you can't play.

Not because you couldn't physically play. You might die if you play. Right. And is there a message to everybody that you have about that? Because it strikes me that we have the same thing in life, too. You don't know when your last hug is. You don't know when the last time you talked to your parents. I think make sure you talk to your parents.

Make sure you do that. give that hug and not in a sense to where it's got to be like this might be the last time ever bro come in no just do it because it really might be the last time i really did play my last game and didn't know it so thank goodness i was just in a mode to where this was my practice to say what's up to the popcorn guy when i'm coming out to give the high five to janitor to help to help the young fella with their game when it was time to go through my routine to better myself and my game, to listen to my coach, execute the game plan and be the best leader that I could be because one day it was over. So yeah, I mean, yo, yo, hey, yeah, call that person.

Yo, I just wanted to call you because I wanted to call you. Hear your voice. Yo, you good? Okay, yeah, it don't have to be long. It doesn't have to be win one for the Gipper status all day. But it does have to be a part of the process, right? It does have to be, hey, just call and check on you. Hey, give me a hug. Come on. Even with my kids, hug them every day. You know, and, you know, boys, I have three boys.

They're in that mode. It was like, ah, ah, ah, ah. Like, no, no, give me a hug. We hug each other. I see my good friend and I haven't seen in years. I give him a hug, tight one, you know? Because, yeah, you never know. I mean, I didn't know that I would play my last game.

I didn't know when I had dinner with Kobe in September that that would be it. But you know what I do know? We talked about film. We talked about dreams. We talked about writing. We talked about bettering ourselves and getting to that next level in our lifetime because he was one of the only people in the world that could understand what I was going through. You know, so just be fully present and just take it all in. Put the phone down for a few minutes, you know, nothing crazy.

just take that moment in just you know just take it all in because you never know if that'll be it and in a sense that made it perfect for me um i didn't have a fail world tour it probably wouldn't have been cool anyway to see a seven-foot dude shooting threes like ah yeah you know okay chris you know at least uh it was just a normal regular day at the office and nobody knew it and And to me, that is perfect because that's the reality of what I was facing at that time. I try to end the interview with sort of a legacy question. How do you want to be remembered when you're 95 and you're, you know, what do you want people to say about you? You know, great father, family man, man of his word.

But most importantly, you know that he wasn't afraid to try. you know basketball is only the first act for me and that's kind of like a lot of people see me say why are you going to be in a front office or are you going to coach like you should coach and and maybe one day maybe one day i don't i have not closed the chapter on basketball at all you know it'll always be a part of my life i love the game my challenge is to just dive into those other things that complete me as a person um i have goals in my mind that I want to do. Being an author is one of them. Damn, I didn't even think it'd be that quick. But I want to be a multifaceted, seen as a multifaceted person who, you know, was able to put out

great content, great art. But most importantly, the person that I am and hopefully the people that I helped and helped inspire, you know, that'll be the message that transcends me. So it's not about me so much as it is about the message as it is about going after your dreams and trying to accomplish them. You know, that's what I think is most important. I'm kind of just just in the weeds, just trying to, you know, continue to uplift the message. And the message is bigger than me. There will be many other dreams by individuals hopefully lived out in this hopefully infinite lifetime and after i'm gone maybe even the bosh name lives on maybe who knows you know what i mean but more so for those that do remember they'll remember if they think of me

you know let me help this person out let me make sure this person has a good day or or hey how are you today let me do this extra tutoring session so that i can get better at my craft let me pick my team made up because they just had a shitty day. I've watched the whole thing. Hopefully that's the thing that people do if they think of me or when they think of me when I'm going. That's beautiful. Thank you so much, man. This was an amazing conversation. Yeah, no, I appreciate you, man. I appreciate it, dude. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Farnham Street. I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to. Email me at shane at

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