The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish - Aristotle Koskinas on Greek History

Episode Date: January 5, 2017

This is one of 2 interviews that I conducted while visiting Greece this summer. Greek history is deep routed in many things as philosophy, democracy and culture and has laid the foundation of so much of what we know and how we live today. Today I speak with Aristotle Koskinas (@aristotlekoskin), a guide with Athens walking tours. He's one of the best guides you can find in Athens. In order to be a guide in Greece, an individual must complete a 2½ year program at the School of Tourist Guides in Greece - which is a state school under the Ministry of Development. Some of the courses in the curriculum include Ancient Greek history, Byzantine history, Prehistoric Archaeology, Mythology, Geology, history of Theater –and psychology of the tourist. Listen in for details on the history of Athens over the past 3000 years, the influence Greek culture has had across the world, and some insight on what surprises him meeting visitors from different countries.   Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/   Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/   Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parrish, curator behind the Fernham Street blog, which is an intellectual hub of interestingness covering topics like human misjudgment, decision-making, strategy, philosophy, and culture. The Knowledge Project allows me to interview amazing people from around the world to deconstruct why they're good

at what they do and get inside their head. It's more conversation than prescription. It's about seeing the world as they see it. The next episode is one of two interviews that I conducted while visiting Greece this summer. Greek history, which is deep-rooted in many things, as philosophy, democracy, and culture, has laid the foundation of so much of what we know and what we live today. Today I'm going to speak with Aristotle Koskynos, one of the best guides you can find in Athens. In order to be a guide in Greece, an individual must complete two-and-a-half-year program at the School of Tourist Guides in Greece,

which is the state school under the Ministry of Development. Some of the courses in the curriculum include ancient Greek history, Byzantine history, prehistoric archaeology, mythology, history of theater, and the psychology of the tourist. Along with completing the required written and oral exams, the professionals must also complete 110 hours of lessons in a museum about archaeology and 260 hours of visiting sites and practicing guides. like you just walk up to the bus and get a guide here. I contacted Athens walking tours to find out who their best guide was, and that's how I came to meet Aristotle. With his first degree

in archaeology, Aristotle decided to continue his studies in order to become a certified guide in Athens. And we're lucky that he did. Today you'll hear us speak about the history of Athens over the past 3,000 years, the influence of Greek culture has had across the world, and some insights on what surprises him meeting visitors from different countries. I hope you in enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Hi and welcome. Thank you. Welcome.

Welcome to Greece in Athens. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, Aristotle? Well, yeah, my name is Aristotle Koskinas. I'm an archaeologist and qualified tourist guides. I was born in Athens and I have lived in this city for most of my life although I had to go out from my university studies to be trained as a tourist guide

so I have been outside of Athens for several years but I have returned to this big city and I'm working since 2003 as a tourist guide which is my full-time job and archaeology now has become passion I wouldn't call it a hobby but I pursue my research

when I have some spare time which fortunately it is limited and unfortunately financially because I'm busy I'm working on the other hand I have a ton of roof tiles waiting for me

to study them and I'm getting phone calls from my from the directors of the Dickson, okay Aristotle we have found some new roof tiles where you're coming over to see them. November, December, next year, probably. How many people

live in Athens? How many? About 5 million people. Although those who are registered are about 4 million. It just happens that during the census people leave and go back to their villages or towns because they believe that if they are registered

there, the government will have a different approach and attitude towards the the local communities. But the population of the Greater Athens area is 5 million, which is about 40% of the population of the country, were about 11 million, according to the census of 2011. What do you find most interesting about being a professional tour guide? That's a strength, that's not a strange, that's a difficult question. Well, first of all, Well, is that I come in contact with different people every time,

and I have the opportunity to talk to them about the history of Athens and Greece. Of course, it's my version of the history of Athens and Greece. I try to make them see the country through my eyes. And, yeah, that's what makes it interesting. Sometimes, however, you have people who are not. not particularly interested about the history, they just want to take a selfie, in which case, yeah, it's not that interesting for me to do that. Because, okay, you can find a place to take itself. There are plenty of opportunities in the city to take itself as now you cannot

see it. The audience cannot see that, but wherever you have, you have a look of the acropolis, so it's great. The history of Greece dates back so far and goes on for so long, and it so vast it seems like there's an endless amount of threads that you could pick up for someone who wants to learn or somebody looking for where to start where would you suggest well start reading or visiting because that's for example you want to you visit the country you want to have an introduction to its history I would say Athens will be the first place of choice because you're having You have the National Archaeological Museum, which has antiquities from all the periods of Greek history,

from the Neolithic, say, 7,000 BC to the Roman. Although, now just a note, when we say the history of Greece, we must make a distinction. You have the history of Greece as a country which starts back in the Paleolithic period, 200,000, 300,000. You say then you have the history of the Greek people, which started a little, later than that. It goes based on the, although there's a debate about it. The archeologically, we can prove that the Greek people arrived in this region during the second millennium BC.

So if you want to be very strict and precise, the history of the Greek nation starts in the second millennium. But in the narrative of the formation of the Greek state, if you read the books, you'll see that the Minoan Cretans are also included in the history of the Greek nation, the people of the Cyclades who were living here since the, well, probably since the fourth millennium BC, were also included in the Greek, so we're not certain if they were, actually, we don't know what language they were speaking, so we're not certain if there were Greeks or a different

ethnic stock. So, yeah. But anyway, visiting Athens, you'll get to see all that continuity from the 7th millennium to the Roman period and then you have other places so you can see the modern revival of Greece and the modern sequel of the country after the war of independence against the Ottoman Turks when Greece became a sovereign state in 1831 to the present so yeah I know that Athens hasn't got the beaches and the white-washed churches that people are accustomed and they know from the commercials But, yeah, staying in Athens for at least a couple of days. I think it's important to get to know the history of Greece.

What's the history of Athens, the city itself? Well, we have to go back to the fourth millennium, about 3,400 BC, when we have the first inhabitants who settled on the Acropolis and in the surrounding plain. And since that time, the city has a continuous. So you say that the city has a history of 6,000 years and several meters of archaeological remains beneath the modern city. You had a period, well, until the 10th century BC, we cannot say that, well, you can't say if we have the city state of Athens. Just not in ancient Greece, we have hundreds of independent city states. Athens, Sparta, Corinth, just to name three of the most important.

But we believe that the city-states were formed during the 10th century BC. So since that time, since the 10th century on, you have the formation of the ancient city, started spreading out around the acropolis, and the heyday of Athens was the 5th century BC, when it had the strongest navy. the strongest navy. They controlled all the Aegean. They had multiple sources of revenue from the harbor of Piraeus, that had silver mines, manufacturing activities. And in this period

when the Athena democracy was developed, you had philosophy, art. So when we say the 5th century BC, was in a period between 480 to 430 BC about that period. When Athens is that it's strongest and the most prospers. Reading, playing, learning. Stellist lenses do more than just correct your child's vision. They slow down the progression of myopia. So your child can continue to discover all the world has to offer through their own eyes. Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control.

Learn more at SLOR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for SLOR Stellas lenses at your child's next visit. TD Bank knows that running a small business is a journey, from startup to growing and managing your business. That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs. No matter the stage of business you're in, visit TD.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD Small Business Banking Account Manager. And then after 430 BC, they have to fight. a long war against the city of Sparta and its allies. It lasted for 27 years.

And that's a very controversial period in ancient Greek history. Because, well, we can say that all the sophisticated and refined Athenians would attend theater, they wouldn't hesitate of exterminate an entire island because they oppose their policies and their expansion. In 4.17, they destroyed the island of Milos, because the millions refused of paying tribute to the Athenians. And in 404, when the Athenians surrendered finally to the Spartans, Athens was at its knees. Even their democracy was abolished for a year or so. The city was revived, but not as a major political or military. power, it retained that aura of cultural center throughout the ancient times, I would say, not

just in the classical period. So, and then we had periods of prosperity, especially when it was supported and endowed by the rulers of the time, precisely because it was Athens, the center of civilization and the fountain of culture and art. During the late Roman period, after the 3rd century AD, the city itself had been destroyed, so it had become a much smaller settlement. After 267, once it was destroyed by the barbarian tribe of the Heruli, the city was confined in the zone around the acropolis.

But then in the 6th century AD, the schools of the city were closed after an imperial edict. And that was the final blow to the significance of Athens as a major educational center. During the Middle Ages, it was a prosperous market town. It still had the memory that it was Athens, of all the Athens of Pericles and the philosophers. In the 12th century AD, a bishop was sent to Athens. he was highly educated in the classics he imagined that he would see the city that was described in the ancient text

and he was completely disappointed and he's making references that okay this is not Athens that's something that's something completely different that's something entirely alien to what I had in my imagination the city in the 15th century it was occupied by the Ottoman Turks and it's interesting that during the first 200 years of the Ottoman occupation, Athens, Prosperts.

And in the census of the 16th century, it had a population of 17,000 people, which makes it the fourth largest city of the Ottoman Empire in Europe. Well, and I say this interesting because it wasn't an administrative center. Was it a trading outpost? Not even because we don't have in other cities the Ottomans would build large markets. In Athens there was just the bazaar which was developed over the ruins of the ancient market and the ancient libraries. That's fascinating in Athens that you see a building of a Roman period which was a library and then it was repurposed into a bazaar during the Ottoman. So you have the same location, but it was changing through the centuries.

So, no, it probably has to do with the thriving countryside, because during the Ottoman, the process of the Ottoman occupation, the countryside of Athens was not ravaged. So you had a strong population base, and you had the interaction between the city and the countryside. That's the only reason as far as we understand. Then, because in the 18th century, the revenue and the taxation system changed in the Ottoman Empire. So instead of collecting the taxes directly, the Ottoman state would lease out the taxes to tax farmers, which would collect the taxes with interest for their own profit. And by the late 18th century, this population has dropped to 11,000 people. We have references that people would leave the city to be released from the tax burden.

People would motor their farms to the monasteries or to wealthy Greeks or wealthy Ottoman. So gradually had the accumulation of land to more and more people. And that was the financial and socially that was a fatal blow to the city. Was it they were trying to extract? too much taxes, or was it just a revolt against... The idea was that every year the Ottoman Treasury would have the Sam that they had in the budget, and they wouldn't bother of collecting it to build up the mechanism to collect it. So you had these entrepreneurs.

Actually, they were usually members of the Ottoman elite who would hire other people to do the dirty job, would be the facade. The dirty work, yeah. And they would say, okay, look, how many do you want, for Athens, you're supposed to take 40,000 coins? Okay, this is 40,000 coins. Yeah. At the beginning of the year. And then, coming back to Athens, these people would collect the taxes.

I'm suspecting a lot more than 40,000. 60, 70,000, because they had not only to make a profit, they also had to come up with the money to pay the assets. other Ottoman officials where they are superior so they would get that grant that concession there was a network of bribing or not bribing I know that people in Turkey would we can for saying that gift a exchange from the lower to the to the upper level and of course those who suffered the most were the people on the lower level who had to give the money the tributes yeah and it was a distribution system so if a small community had to pay it say a hundred coins it didn't matter if you

had a thousand or ten people it would be still hundred coins yeah so when people started living you ended up with a couple of well a few families taking all the burden of the taxation so that there were at least two riots against those tax collectors in Athens during the 18th century were Greeks and Muslims participated. So it was not just an ethnic thing. It was a social and economic phenomenon. So in 1821, when the Greek War of Independence was declared, the people were more than ready to join and expel the Ottoman authorities and the Ottoman population from the city. Although Athens suffered a lot during the War of Independence, especially between

1826 and 1827 the Greeks were in possession of the acropolis which was a castle always the acropolis was a castle the the Ottoman army was besiezing them so imagine that we know that by the end of that seeds there were only 40 buildings standing with eros out of 2,000 buildings 1834 three years after the end of the war Athens was declared the capital of Greece and again that choice was ordained by the history of the city, not its significance as a town during the 19th century. It was Athens. It was the city that was mentioned in all the ancient texts. It was a city where democracy was created, was the city where philosophy. So the first king

of Greece, who was a German, by the way, and his advisors decided to establish the capital in Athens to showcase the link between modern Greece and its ancient glories. There was even a plan which was just

only a plan fortunately to build the royal residence on the acropolis. It never happened, thank God. So the city that invented democracy ended up with a monarchy? Yeah. Well, it's not just the city. It was Greece. During the war of independence, we have made a declaration of independence. We had the parliament. Right.

And the constitutions that were drafted during the War of Independence were very progressive and liberal for the standards of that time. Don't forget that is the War of Independence started a few years after the end of the Napoleonic Wars. So the monarchies of Europe wanted to retain the status quo. So they didn't want to hear anything about parliament. and elections. During the war, unfortunately, the Greek people also were fighting a civil war. That is interesting.

We were fighting, actually, we fought two civil wars during the War of Independence. We're fighting against each other to establish who would be the ruler or the power broker when we would become independent. We also contracted two loans from British banks.

All that money were just squandered during the civil wars and to irrelevant purchases of military material, we purchased six steamships, because we thought that this superior technology would give us an advantage over the Ottoman Navy. Of these six steamships, only one arrived during the war, and it was deployed. It's actually the first steamship that was used in battles. The other two arrived after the end of the war. The three were never built, although we had paid for them.

And we even bought a frigate from the United States. We have commissioned. We have ordered three, only one arrived. We have paid for all of them. Right. It's another story. But these loans were very important because by taking the loans, Greece acquired an entity.

And the governments of England wanted, well, they had to. take care of their own interests, economic and political interests. So in a form of legitimizing. Yeah, in a way we were not recognized officially as a people fighting against the Ottoman Turks, but, yeah, essentially we were. When you give money to someone, first of all, you have a vested interest that someone will be able to pay you the money or give you the collateral in the end. So, yeah, that's in a way, we've been.

be, although they're historians that would disagree with that, but an important factor in the success of the War of Independence was those two loans. They were, yes, they were divisive. They were never used for the war itself, but politically they played an important role. And I think we pay those loans in the late 90s, anyway. That's a Greek joke. They were still paying the bonds of the Greek War of Independence. Then in, and in 1827 finally the European superpowers decided to intervene. They sent us a joint fleet, England, France and Russia. They destroyed the Ottoman fleet.

And then it was just a matter of time when the Ottoman army and garrisons would leave the country. And originally the plan was for Greece to become a vassal state to the Ottoman. to the Ottoman Empire, but due to the diplomacy of the first governor of Greece, who was a very competent diplomat, we were able to become an independent state. And part of the agreement was that Greece would become monarchy. And since we didn't have any nobility in Greece, there were people who called themselves barons and princes, but they didn't have any real claim. But also because of the civil war, people were

reluctant to accept one or the other of the factions. So when we were offered... So going outside actually kind of made sense. Yeah, that would be Greek people believe that an outsider would bring stability in the Greek society. So the prince from Bavaria, Otto, became, was appointed the king of Greece. For him, it must have been quite a shock. When he came to the country, he was 17 years old. Maybe he knew about the history of Greece. He must have seen the warriors who came as the delegation to offer him on the ground. But yeah, we have these descriptions of his arrival that he was a little shaky. He even lost his foot when he came off the boat. So he was grabbed by one of his bodyguards who have been a quite humiliating arrival for a king just to fall. Right away.

in this again anyway and otto well the father of the father of the king ludwig of bavaria was was fascinated with greek history and culture he had created a large collection of greek art the glyptotech in munich is actually started as his collection and of course he was happy to have his son of the as the ruler of course yeah of greece so athens was chosen as the capital and so that's actually the the milestone for the modern history of Athens is 1834 and since then you have a history of of expansion and growth in 1834 the city had only 4,000 people because it was after the war people had left just in 60 years when the first Olympic games were held in Athens

the population was more than a hundred thousand yeah and you have that increase there were two there were also two periods of dramatic population increase the first was in 1922 by that time the city had about 700,000 people but within one year a quarter of a million were added to the population oh wow that was after the after the First World War Greece got a mandate to garrison the area around the city of Izmir Greek Zmyrna where more than 80% of the population were Greeks. And the idea was that after five years, there had been a referendum.

The inhabitants of that region would decide if they wanted to be united with Greece or they would have an autonomous status. The plan of the Greek government was that the Greek populations that were Greeks and Christians would live the areas in Anatolia and come into this district, so we'd have 150% Greeks in that area. It didn't work that way because the Turks started their own war of independence,

and it was up to the Greek army to pursue them. By 1922, we were defending the frontier 700 kilometers long. At one point, our army reached 50 kilometers of Ankara. My grandfather who was in that campaign had stories that, okay, we could see Ankara somewhere in the distance, but then we had to retreat. And in 1922, the Turkish army counterattacks, the city of Izmir is destroyed, and thousands of people were killed. And the next year when the peace treaty was signed, they agreed for a mandatory exchange of population. one and a half million Greeks left their villages and towns in Turkey. They were settled in Greece,

and about half a million Turks and Muslims left northern Greece, and they went to Turkey. And I think I don't remember the name of the villas, but there is a ghost village in Turkey, which used to be 100% Greek. And you have the houses immediately after the, when the people left it. And they all left at the same time. Yeah. And imagine that you have several municipalities in Athens who started as refugee camps.

And then they became communities that were added to the city. Whenever you see in the map, New Smyrna, new Philadelphia, these are actually, they have the names of the communities from which these people came originally. I want to talk a little bit about Greek culture. that's kind of taken on its own term and own meaning throughout the world and it sounds like more and more we're meaning Athenian culture historically can you walk us through what is

a culture historical culture or the modern culture a little bit of both I mean like what does the modern culture connotate and where did it become that way from the historic perspective well the modern culture well Greece Modern Greece is a curious mix of the memory of its ancient glories and globalization.

First of all, you have the culture of Athens, it's a melting pot where you have Greeks from all around. Someone have said that Athens is just an agglomeration of thousands of villages. Because you have people from Corfu, you have people from southern Greece, you have people from Crete. These people brought their own customs, their own ideas. They had to adjust in the environment of the big city. Don't imagine that every year during the festivals you have, in every neighborhood of Athens, you have a traditional festival. No, it's like has been Greek,

all elements of traditional Greek culture have been put into a mixer. And now we see them through a modern filter. filter. So you have, we celebrate all the religious festivals, which is a great opportunity for eating and drinking and meeting with friends. Yeah, you see that now modern Greeks using devices and computers and all that. On the other hand, sometimes they'll still have the social restrictions that they have carried from their villages. They say, okay, let's behave this way because the people of our environment will start making comments so they still have the mentality of the of the small community although they live in a big city

and they live in the way I don't know if it's is it's historic Greek culture really Mediterranean culture in the sense that I believe the Romans conquered Greece but Greek culture permeated throughout Roman Empire. Well, Greek culture, the Romans recognized that the supremacy of the Greek civilization of the Greek culture. Actually, one of the Roman author says that Greece was captured with our weapons, but the culture of Greece managed to, we are the captives of the Greeks because of their culture. So what did they mean when they said Greek culture?

Well, you can say philosophy, the art, primarily the arts, and literature. That's when you say, in a historical perspective. What the Romans took from the Greeks was, first of all, the arts, which they adjusted to their own social and political requirements. They also took the luxury of the Greeks, because by the, by the, the time the Romans had occupied Greece, you had Greek and oriental elements. They were fused and you have all this idea of good living, of drinking, of commensality, perfumes, textiles, carpets, things that the Romans, there were some Roman traditionalists who said, no, no, these

are degrading things. We don't need them. We don't even need their statues and poetry. They're not worthy for us, Roman warriors. But by the first century BC, you start having all the Roman elite assimilating the Greek ways of life and entertainment, collecting Greek arts. When the original, when they ran out of originals, they started producing copies. So there was an entire industry of producing copies or reworking of earlier Greek. statues. You go to several all around the world

and most of the statues that we have, the exception is Greece, but we have a lot of originals but anyway, you have their Roman copies of ancient Greek originals. That's interesting. And to be, you had Romans

who would study in Athens because Athens still had that distinction that if you want to be educated, you'll go to Athens. It's like they're going to Harvard or Cambridge or Oxford. That was the and during the Roman period Athens was that. That's a nice calm college city where you have all the philosophers and you have students from all around. What did it mean to get a Greek education? Like what was that? What did

that consist of back in? Well first of all there was a small number of people who could do it by the Roman period only the elite could be educated and in that high level. I'm not talking about know how to read and write about being trained in the art of

rhetorics to study philosophy. Yes, poets, authors, politicians could do it. Other wealthy people could also do it. Sometimes it would be just I think that some people

would visit Athens, I would study in Athens, just as a Nuvorish sow off. I've studied in Athens. And I'm speaking, and I'm writing the Athenian dialect of the Athenian way. So, yeah, I think that

during the Roman period, that's what they perceive as Greek culture. The Athenian expression of Greek culture. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee and more.

Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. And let's face it with, because most of the history of Greece was written by Athenians or by people who were living in Athens or what they were writing about Athens. It's an Athenocentric perspective that we get about ancient Greek history. Of course, during the third and the second centuries BC, you had other cities which were even more important. For example, we have the city of Alexandria. It was a metropolis of half a million people with its own center of production of art.

You had there the museum and the library of Alexandria, which was a major center of advanced research and studies. You had the city of Beirut, which was a city of Beirut, which was famous for its law studies. But even with that, Athens was still that the first among equals.

Because it had the long tradition, because everything started, started from Athens. Speaking of starting in Athens, can you walk me through a little bit of the history of philosophy in Greece, specifically in Athens?

Despite my name, I'm not much of a philosopher, but anyway, You have the, we divide Greek philosophy more or less in two periods. We have the pre-Socratic philosophy and the philosophers after Socrates. Socrates is the, say, it's the pivot in all that. So during the 6th and the early 5th century in BC, philosophers who were particularly active in cities such as Miletus or Ephesus, the big cities along the east coast of the Aegean started researching the origins of nature.

You can call them more like physical philosophers. Some of them were also pursuing issues such as morality, but primarily they were looking what the world is made of, is it air, fire, fire, soils, a combination of all that, what happens when these elements come into conflict and all that. With Socrates, in Athens who was active during the second half of the 5th century BC, at least the Socrates we know through the writings of Plato, because Socrates never wrote anything.

So personally, I think that Plato used Socrates as his own mouthpiece. And, okay, he has 30% real Socrates and 70% Plato. Yeah. But okay, that's my, that's my view. What is good and what is evil? And what makes you good and evil? Isosat's love. Things that characterize the pursuers of modern philosophy.

And with his student, Plato, and then with Aristotle. Aristotle is about a generation after, two generations after Socrates. Of course, there was a difference Plato was searching about spiritual and elevated issues. Aristotle was more down to earth. And that's why in the painting the School of Athens, which is in Florence, I think, they saw Plato pointing upwards and Aristotle is pointing downwards. It's interesting. So what Plato believed that there were the ideas were these internal elements.

And what we see in real life is just a pale shadow of the ideas. And you have to reach further to find the true meaning, the true essence of things. And Aristotle was more about what we can get from experiencing and studying the environment and the nature around us. So he was writing books about physics, about mathematics, about zoology, about plants, about politics. So he was more like the what today we will call the scientists with a wide field of expertise. Then again in Athens you have philosophers who, such as the Stoics or the Epicureans, who were trying to find a way to cope with the adversities of life.

So they were creating their own ideas of how you behave and what is your life in order to deal with anxiety. The goal was to reach apathy. that you won't be you're not affected by okay your your daughter dies no problem you will see that you'll you'll you'll think it over you say yeah okay it just happens yeah but that's because during the the fourth and the third century's busy was a time and and and later was a very insecure time first of all the Greek with the campaign of Alexander the Great the Greek had

expanded tremendously from what used to be a small area of a few hundred city-stays became a cosmopolis of hundreds of thousands of kilometers. A Greek would travel the way to modern Afghanistan, and even there, Alexander Great had created Greek cities, cities that were according to the model of Athens, because that's interesting. He was a monarch, but he was using Athens. as the model for his new creations. Greek had become the common language for thousands, millions of people. People who were not ethnic Greeks, but they would learn Greek because that was the lingua franga of the time.

You have politically things change. Your life dependent not on the decisions of a small city council of your fellow citizens, independent on what a key. would decide hundreds of kilometers away so because of all these changes because life had become very fluid societies were also changing there were also a lot of sources of stress and anxiety so they had to find a way to deal with those that's why you have the different approaches and then after the during the Roman period you have reworkings of the same play of the ideas of Plato

of Aristotle, of the Epicureans, of the Stoics. The Roman emperor, Marcus Aurelius, was a Stoic himself, and you can see in his writings that he follows the tenets of the Stoic philosophy. What else happened, the Alexander the Great Period? Can you walk me through a little bit of that in Greece? Well, in the period of Alexander, you have, first of all, in 338 BC, because as when, things started for Greece and

Alexander Philip II, the father of Alexander defeated the Greek city states at the Battle of Caronnea and according to most of ancient and modern historians that battle spelled

the end of the independence of the Greek city states Philip had I think his policy was little more complicated than that. He guaranteed the dependence of all the Greek city states. But what Philip considered as independence was that, okay, I'm not going to be involved in your internal affairs, but I'm going to guarantee your territorial integrity and status, but you were not going to be able to expand or attack another city state because

I'll be here to guarantee the piece. And that's... That's why he created, we call it the League of Corinth, because he would meet in Corinth, where all the Greek city-states, were not all of them, but most of them participated. And they declared Philip the commander-in-chief of the army of that league, which would be the police force enforcing order in peace in Greece, but also he would be the commander-in-chief of the campaign against the Persian Empire. And Philip, and then Alexander, Hussain, presented that campaign as a common Greek endeavor

against the Persians to revenge the Persians for what they have done in Greece during their own invasion. There were some Greek cities would retain their independence, even the nominal independence, such as the Spartans, as the Spartans who never participated. Although they didn't have any way of affecting the situation, they said, no, we are the Spartans and we don't want to participate.

Say that when Philip asked them, do you want me to come to visit your city as a friend or as an enemy? And the reply was neither. We don't want you in the city. Well, they're asking a very laconic Spartan way. When Philip visited Sparta, he destroyed the character. He destroyed the countryside around them. He saw them who's the power now and he left.

And when later Alexander, he had his first victory against the Persons, he dedicated 300 suits of armor, which are made of gold. They were dedicated on the Acropolis here in Athens. And there was an inscription saying Alexander and the Greeks except the Spartans. Ha! Ha! So, in 336, Philip is murdered. And Alexander becomes king of Macedonia. And of course, he takes on the mantle of being the commander-in-chief of all the Greeks.

And he began, and three years later, he stars his campaign, which was indeed a very fast world tour of conquest. In just 10 years he destroyed the Persian Empire and he created his own empire well actually in a way he replaced the hiking of Persia and he became the hiking of Persian that's interesting about Alexander

he didn't say okay now all of you become Macedonians I am the successor of the hiking when he went to Egypt he said I'm the successor of the Pharaohs When he went to Jerusalem, he said, yes, I recognize that there's one God and, okay, he had a very, in his diplomacy was very wise not to suppress the pre-existing situation. He just used it for his own needs. Alexander died early. He was 36.

He was, I think, about 30, 33, about 30, yeah, but he died in 323. He was on the very, being Alexander, he wanted to continue his campaigns. That was interesting that he had plans of conquering the Arabian Peninsula. He had plans of conquering northern Africa and Carthage. I think if he had another 10, 15 years of life, the map of the world and world history have been very different. never had the Roman Empire. Yet. Because he would have conquered Rome.

If you have the tactical and strategic genius of Alexander with the battle-hardened army, with all the resources of the East, I don't think that the Romans could stand against it. But when he died, he had two minor sons who were used as pawns in the political games. Afterwards, both of them were assassinated. a few years later, and that empire was dissolved into three, then they became four kingdoms, then they became actually you had started to have spin-offs from all different kingdoms, which were splintered. And did Greece go back to city-states?

Greece, you still have the city-states, but most of Greece was under the control of the Macedonian. So you had Macedonian garrisons in the cities, important fortresses were under Macedonian control, all, the kingdom of the Ptolemy's who were ruling Egypt, who wanted to fight against, to undermine the Macedonians, were supporting the Greeks when they wanted to start a rebellion against the Macedonian garrisons. It happened a couple of times, but with meagre successes just for a few years. And that's why when the Romans finally arrived and they defeated for the first time the kingdom of Macedonia, they declared the dependence of the Greeks.

It was very fashionable of declaring the dependence of the Greeks. But always the dependent men, you can take care of your own affairs, but we call the sorts in important issues of diplomacy and strategy. Independent to an extent. Yeah. You have a municipal independence. Right. Okay, and within your territory, outside your territory.

It's very much how politics still works today, right? Like you have municipal dependence and then provincial or... Modern external say that in the fourth century BC, the institution of the city-state started declining. And you can say that politically, it did, because now the Greek world was not all that a mosaic of small or large city-states was interacted with each other. In order to survive, you either had to pledge your religions or to be subjugated by one of the great kingdoms,

or you had to participate in a federation or an alliance, which were formed to stand against these kingdoms, where again you would lose part of your independence. But on the other hand, the idea of the city-state as a model of civic organization thrives. during that time. First of all you have all these new cities that were created by Alexander the Great. They were modeled on the system of the city-state. They would have their citizens, there are city councils, there are the Agora, the theater, the sanctuary, the gymnasium where people would work out and educated. Then you have several more cities that were created by the successors of Alexander. So the

The model of the city-state, I would say that it thrives throughout as an organization system. Not politically, yes, it had declined. Because they had lost, they didn't have the resources to cope with the greater powers of the time. If we were going to start reading about Greek history, where would you start? What would you recommend people start with in terms of they want to come visit, but before they come, they want to learn about? Well, definitely, they must, they should read a general overview of Greek history, and they're a couple in English. And then, again, as a general, for general reading, there are books, say, companion to Greek history, or the Oxford Dictionary of Classical Greece, or the Cambridge Diction of Classical of Greece, where they would get, first of all, the... the frame of Greek history, but also details about politics, about religion, about everyday life, about warfare, about all that, about technology.

Yeah, for ancient Greece, I think that should be the approach. And then, of course, but Greece is not just its ancient history. Greece has a very rich history during the Middle Ages and I would say in the Middle Ages it was especially rich in military events anyway and then and modern Greece which is very interesting to see the wave of ascendancy and collapse ascendancy collapse triumph and disaster

now we're in the disaster curve down curve the there are also books who have been written recently about this so yes I think first general overview about ancient Greek history and it's and the different aspects of its culture and then move on to the to the modern because the modern history of Greece it's it's unknown to to the general audience when they hear Greece they know the the acropolis baby my Mycenae, which is the late Bronze Age citadel because it's related to Troy, but the modern history of Greece, it's what happened here in the Second World War, or happened after the

Second World War, because knowing the modern history of Greece, they will understand what, where we have this situation now in the last five years. You interact with tourists all the time. What most surprises them about Greece? Well, first of all, especially the last five years, a large number of people are surprised that we still operate. And that the museums are open and because I've been told with people, you see they're doing construction. I say, yes, why? Because you have, you're bankrupt. Well, not exactly.

Yes, we are, but not exactly bankrupt. Yeah, there are, because they get through the media completely. A distorted view of what's going on in Greece. Even when, for example, we had the, in 2010, in 2011, when we had all these demonstrations and riots, people believed that they would come to Athens and they would find a post-apocalyptic landscape of buildings on fire, police patrolling in the streets, helicopters, not even, no. And probably Batman jumping from roof to roof, but anyway. I guess it never been to France either.

We had situations like this, but they were just for a couple of days confined in a very small area of the city. I will give you one example. It was in 2011, May. I had a tour on the Acropolis, and then we come the Agora, and then we had lunch in the Plaka, which is not very far from Syndagma Square where the demonstrations take place. So, we finished the tour and I made the mistake of switching on my radio to listen to the news. And I listened that, there is a demonstration and the National Garden is on fire. Say, what?

The National Garden is on fire. So I walk towards the square, which is just about five minutes away if you are in a hurry. Because I want to see the National Garden on fire. And what was the National Garden on Fire? just a pine tree slightly singed on the fence now if I was in my house yeah being in Athenia yeah and I would and I would believe that the yeah the National Garden was burned by the demonstrators so you get what people listen and see through through the media and the idea they have about the so yes they are I

think that's when they're surprised about the the current situation Other times, other people are surprised that the archaeological sites don't close at 3 o'clock because there are some archaeological sites that even in the summer close at 3 o'clock. And then you have to explain to them that is limited where the Greek minister of culture hasn't got the budget to hire the extra personnel and they think that is better to have their sites closed instead of hiring extra people. So I have to ask the last question. If we are going to spend 10 days, if somebody is going to spend,

spend 10 days in Greece. Knowing what you know about it, how would you recommend that people spend those 10 days? Definitely a couple of maybe three days in Athens as an introduction. And to allow also time for the jet lag because arriving from a transatlantic flight and then going immediately for a tour,

it's not always the best idea. I know, I had three hours of sleep last night. Also in Athens, it may sound strange, but you can take the tram and you can be at very nice business in just an hour, maybe half an hour. Then do a small, you can do, say three days, then you can do a small tour of the Peloponnese. Or maybe you can use Athens as a base and you can do a full day tour, you go to the city of Naftlion and to visit Mycini, which is. a bronze-aids citadel and to a very impressive side.

The city of Nathlian is also very, very beautiful. It was the first capital of Greece. Unfortunately, for Nathplio, the capital was transferred to Athens. Wait, why was that fortunate for them that it was transferring? Because the city, it remained a very beautiful small city. While Athens was also a very beautiful city, especially during the development of the 60s, I don't know if you have walked through the placa already, but imagine that until 1960,

most of the city of Athens had very beautiful architecture of the 19th and the early 20th century, and a few apartment office buildings of the modern style. But with all the development of the sixes, all the old buildings were condemned. So I would say Athens, that if we were wise and we have kept Athens, as it was in the 60s, we have been a city as beautiful as Prague, even more beautiful. Northern Greece is usually

out of the itineraries, and that's a bit because it's a very beautiful area and with also very rich archaeology. So if you were interested about Alexander the Great, and this period definitely a couple of days in Thessaloniki or in the cities

close Thessaloniki. And the islands. Now the islands, they can be I know that people definitely would like to go to Santorini and Micronos, because that's where everyone is going. But I would recommend if you want to visit the Cycladic Islands to visit Naxos, Paros. Yeah, I think that in 10 days, that would be, 10 days are barely enough just to have a... A good taste. So Athens, the mainland, the Peloponnese, and then the islands.

Or you can visit just fly to Thessaloniki, which saves a lot of time, fly to the Saloniki. Use Thessaloniki as a base to visit the sites related to Alexander and that period. And then return to Athens and go to the islands. What's one part of Athens that people don't see, because they probably don't know about it or don't think about it, that you would recommend they check out, maybe a historic site, maybe a cultural site? Well, historic site, the site of the Caramaicos, which was the formal cemetery of the ancient city,

is usually, because it's the furthest away from all the sites, and, well, usually we don't go there. And it's a very nice, it's a very beautiful site, and very interesting. Now other areas of Athens, well I would say there is a residential area called Metz, it's a small area, but it's not touristy at all, but it works just, say, just the hour to walk through to see, because it has its own particular character architecturally and the way it is organized. Yeah, these are areas that personally don't see people, I mean tourists, they don't visit those areas a lot. And then there are other, well, depending, if you want to see the, an interesting area, not very beautiful, but it's interesting, is the area of Gazi.

It is very close to the Carameikos, and it used to be an industrial neighborhood. So from where you can see the construct is a large brown building. Yeah. It's that general area. Okay. And it is an area in flux. So you have the old industrial buildings which are used for as entertainment venues or as cultural venues. You have small houses where refugees and immigrants are staying.

And then next to them you have the lofts and super modern architecture. And it's also one of the has become one of the main entertainment areas of the city. It has been gentrified. It's good, for some people it's good And also it's an excellent gallery of street art So just it is an area where Well, people go but The Athenians go

But not a lot of Of tourists Because usually people visited in Athens for the first time They go They walk through the placa They walk in the area around the acropolis They may go to Syndagma Square Maybe at the hill of Likabedus

sometimes they don't have the time to visit other areas and it's difficult from the perspective of a tourist guide to tell them, okay, you have only one day in Athens let's go to Gazi or let's go to the hills of the outside of the acrobles where you can see an ancient street

and the ruins of houses it's difficult to recommend things like that because people say, Okay, we want to see the highlights, not just a random ancient street, which may be even more interesting than the Parthotan. Aristotle, this has been fascinating. I think I'm going to have to come back next year to learn all about the Greek gods and the myths.

Oh, yeah. That's an inexhaustible subject. We'll save that for another time. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this. Hey, thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy the conversation with Aristotle as much as I Having had the opportunity to speak one-on-one with him gave me a greater appreciation for the city. I'd highly encourage that if you're curious about a place you're traveling,

seek out a guide for professional tour to enhance your experience and learning along the way. In the second episode from my Trooper to Grace, I talk about one of my favorite subjects, wine. I hope you check it out. Thanks. Thank you.