The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish - Santorini Wine with Panayiota Kalogeropoulou

Episode Date: January 5, 2017

The island of Santorini has not only has breathtaking views but also a fascinating history. Traces of its first inhabitants have been linked back to 4500 BC. In 1613 BC the most powerful volcanic event in the last 10,000 years took place – completely destroying all the islands within a 60 km radius. It has been estimated that 90 billion tons of molten rock was injected into the air, the sea swallowed the volcano, and a massive tsunami swept across the Aegean Sea. Along with the obvious devastation of nature, it is believed that the eruption also sealed the deal for the most civilized nation on the island at the time, the Minoans. Thanks to the thick layer of ash cause by the event, the Bronze Age settlement of Akrotiri was so well preserved that we are able to see how prosperous the area had once been with an elaborate drainage systems, multi-storied buildings, incredible wall paintings, furniture and vessels. The site has as much of a significant importance as does Pompeii. The island’s main volcanic rock, its mineral rich soil, and the amazing climate, has produced some incredibly unique wines. Santorini is known for some of the oldest vineyards in the world. And we know that wine is one of my favourite topics. On today’s podcast I speak with Panayiota Kalogeropoulou about Santorini’s wines. Panayiota is the Director at the Domaine Sigalas vineyard. Paris Sigalas, a mathematician with a goal to make his Santorini vineyard a world heritage site, focuses on grapes that thrive in Santorini (these include the Aidani, Athiri, Plantana – and the prime Greek grape Assyrtiko). *** Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/   Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/   Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host Shane Parrish, curator behind the Fernham Street blog, which is an intellectual hub of interestingness, covering topics like human misjudgment, decision-making, strategy, philosophy, and culture. The Knowledge Project allows me to interview amazing people from around the world and deconstruct why they're good at what they do and get inside their head. It's more conversation than prescription. It's about seeing the world as they see it. The next episode is the second of two interviews that I conducted while traveling in Greece this summer. The island of Santorini has not only breathtaking views, but a fascinating history. Traces of its first inhabitants have been linked back to 4,500 BC.

In 1613 BC, the most powerful volcanic event in the last 10,000 years took place, completely destroying all of the islands within a 60-kilometer radius. It's been estimated that 90 billion tons of molten rock was injected into the air. The sea was swallowed. The volcano in a massive tsunami swept across the agrian sea, along with the obvious devastation of nature. It's believed that the eruption also sealed the deal for most civilized nation on Earth at the time, the Minoans. Thanks to the thick layer of ash caused by the event, the Bronze Age settlement in Santorini was so preserved that we're able to see how the prosperous area had once been with the elaborate drainage system,

multi-story building, incredible wall paintings, furniture, and vessels. The site has as much of a significant importance as does Pompeii. The island's main volcanic rock is mineral-rich soil. The amazing climate has produced some incredibly unique wines. Santorini is known for some of the oldest vineyards in the world. And we know that wine is one of my favorite topics. On today's podcast, I speak with Peneotia. Penaotia is the director of Domain-Sagalus Vineyard. Paris Seagallis, a mathematician, with a goal to make Santorini Vineyard a world heritage site, focuses on grapes that thrive in Santorini. She walks me through the different types of grapes and wines,

and explains why wine is so unique and special on the island of Santorini. This was certainly a fun one. I hope you enjoy it. If you're planning on visiting Santorini, I highly recommend you visit the vineyard Domain Sagalis and check out the distinctness of their wines. Be sure to ask for a glass of your favorite. So I'm here on the famous domain Sigales and we're going to talk about the history of wine on Santorini.

Where did that all start? For sure, after the volcanic eruption. We are talking about a continuous vineyard for more than 3,000 years. the huge volcanic eruption took place in 1620 BC but this is what is now the production in Santorini, the volcanic soil. We are talking about, as I mentioned before, a continuous vineyard in Santorini

with that phyloxera never infected the vineyard. So we're lucky, we maintain in the same varieties. As you know, the most important variety is called Assyrtico. And then we have a thiri, Aydani, Gajdury, Gajan, Cacchano, Greek, and, sorry, white grape varieties. And for the red grapes varieties, there is Mavro Tragano and Manddiala. And so those have been in continuous production since? Since, for more than 3,000 years here. That's insane.

insane yeah but hopefully right now where does that put it on the world scale is that one of the oldest places it's it's the oldest it's one of the oldest vineyards all over the world and how did they used to make wine i know uh number six here the uh the history about the nichteri yeah yeah you you want to talk about that it's a nice story i do i love that wine too i want to know more about how it was made and Okay, well, this is their own house wine. This is the wine that they used to produce for their own consumption.

There was, in Santorin, there was a big trade here. We were under the Venetians for many years. We were selling, they were selling their grapes in Russia or different places, Italy. But for sure, they would keep for their own. consumption their own house wine, as we call it. I will tell you the small story behind that. And if you are interesting also, I will tell you what we are not following for this small story.

We're talking about acyrtico, also in Nichteri, but it's a late harvest wine. It's a wine that remains on the vine for 20 days to one month after the natural ripening of the grape it's when we say late harvest

you understand that it's we receive more residual sugar and higher alcohol because the grapes get bigger there is a sugar concentration and water evaporation because maintaining on the vine

this is what they do they were all gathering together to do the nichteri, not to sleep at night and press the grapes by feet. We follow the same procedure, not by feet, but we are receiving the best quality of grape. As you understand, it's the friarine juice that you can receive if you press the grapes by feet, we do the same. It's 100% of assyrtico, like they used to do, to use assyrtico, to use assyrtico. It was the, at least the 60 percentage of all the vinegar di Santorini used to be something,

it used to be ascertico. They were fermenting the wine, used to ferment an age in old oak barrels. There was a tradition in making barrels, oak barrels in Santorini, and they used to seal the barrels with cement. Oh, wow. But they left a blank in between. They didn't top up the barrels. Okay.

Why? Because they might live it like that for at least three or five years. So they might have a re-fermentation. This is what we don't follow. We follow exactly the same way. Late harvest wine, only acyrtico. We're talking about higher alcohol and some residual sugar that you will find.

For sure, it's a dry wine. We age our ascertico for at least 30 months to 36 months in old dog barrels. The only difference we don't follow is that because of the climate conditions that are in our cellar, we don't leave the blank and we top up the barrels. The most important is to remember that they used to produce nicteri with 17 degrees of alcohol and 20 degrees of alcohol. And they had the floor appearance, the floor that we can find also in the sherry, in the Spanish wines. So the floor was protecting the wine and gave this oxidative aromas to their wines. There is a great potential of aging in this wine.

because of the sugar content and because of the high alcohol content. If you are lucky on the island and taste an old nicteri from an old man, you'll be amazed. They still make it today. Yeah, for sure. Oh, really? For sure. Are they still aging at 30 months, though, in an oak barrel? More.

Three years, five years. Oh, man. And that's been going on for hundreds of years. Yes, exactly. Is this one high alcohol content? What would be the alcohol? 15 degrees. 15%.

Wow. That's insane. They must have had a great time after a couple of drinks of that. You know, in Greece, you have birthday, you have a feast. You don't have birthday, you have a feast. But for sure, you drink wine, obviously. So everybody tells me to try Santrini wine. It's so distinct. It's so flavorful. What have you found that you love about it in comparison to other Greek wines?

I will not compare it with other Greek wines because it's a totally different approach because of the soil, first of all. Right. With the lava. It's ash, sand, and pammistones. Right. And that's why we haven't had the pheloxera here, because we have sand, a lot of content of sand, which is not a friendly environment for feloxira.

For me, the uniqueness of Assyrthico is the extreme flavors and the extreme potential for, the wine. You can work on this variety. You can have it in dry version, in sweet version, in nicteri that I told you already, barrel-aids, stainless steel, stainless steel on the list for 18 months or for 30 months. So it's a grape that generally, it has very fresh aromas of lemon, citrus, white skin peach, lime, grapefruit, although we are a hot climate, this is the extreme that I'm describing. You see a very hot climate, but with aromas that you would receive from a cold climate like Shabli. Let's say these aromas is more evident

and occur in places that are colder than us. We are Mediterranean and the GNC. So we have these aromas. By the time it starts aging the wine in the bottle, two years after the bottling, we have very evident the minerality that you can smell on the wine. There is an austerity in the aromas. And when we're talking about the flavors in the mouth,

we are talking about a very refreshing wine with aromas of lemon, citrus, also the same aroma. like in the nose, but with a very long-lasting after-taste and high acidity. So it refreshes your mouth and... Is it the acidity that are fresheny? Yes. That's what makes it refreshing. Oh, that's interesting.

Also, the aromas that are evident in the mouth, but this is what makes it unique. Very high acidity because our soil. lacks of potassium so we receive wines with very low pH grapes with very low pH and it's very easy for us

to produce wine with very high acidity content can you walk me through from harvest to bottle in my hand the process of making wine okay it depends on what wine

you want to produce you could say the simple Santorini that we are produced 100% of acyrical in stainless steel tank the first bottling the wine stops the fermentation and it can remain with the lease for two months

and then we're released in the market you might want to produce a wine that you want to the wine to ferment an age in a new French oak barrels for example this is a totally different approach

because you receive wine after six months in the bottle and for sure it needs time to remain also in the bottle in order to be very balanced and to consume generally what I believe is that Asirtico

in order to give you this extremity I was telling you and to be very balanced after the bottling needs at least one year in the bottle. And with a great potential of aging, at least seven years in the bottle.

Oh, wow. So we are starting from fresh aromas, and then we continue with very mineral, nutty aromas, with, we continue something like, you could smell apricot, fresh apricot,

but the wine can be five years old. You can smell lemon peel or lemon pie it's how you make the procedure of fermentation and anything in order to be bottled and what you want to produce what's your favorite one that you produce

end omensigalas yes it's our single vineyard it's called Cavaleros the man that rides the horse it comes from a single vineyard that it is stated in immerovigli a high altitude

village. It's near to Fira. High altitude, we are talking about 350 meters. Above sea level. Above sea, yeah. And this is the first vineyard that Paris Sigales started buying grapes. It's a long, huge story behind this label. Let's get into that. Tell me the story behind the level. Okay, I will tell you. He started buying the grapes from Mr. George, in Greece in 1991 this old man decided to sell his grapes

to a private winery and not to the cooperative as it used to be done since then so he was receiving these grapes and every year he knew that he was receiving the best quality of grape

and the wine and the juice that was producing had a very very well balanced finesse very evident the minerality content and very gentle aromas of the fruit

so in 2009 he decided to vinify separately than from the other ascertical that he was receiving and we produced a label with the name Cavaleros

the name of the vineyard Mr. George said that this wine, this specific vinegar used to override all the others and it was his best, that's why he called it Cavaleros, the man that rides the horse and all this, etc. So in 2009, we produced the new label of Cavaleros, 100% of Assyrtico, but with something different, he released it in the moment. market in 2011, the 2009, and the wine remained on the list for 18 months in stainless steel tanks with a great potential of aging and very, very evident the minerality and the fresh

aromas of lemon, lemon peel with very high acidity. It's an amazing wine with a great potential of aging. Why do you age it in stainless steel tanks and not... In barrels, you mean. But we have the other labels in barrels. Okay. What would that do do to the flavor of it, do you think, if you... If we did it, this specific vinegar in barrels, you mean? Yeah. I believe that the aromas of Assyrtico are very gentle and not that evident and pronounced. So the oak might change. a little bit and will not give all this austerity that we would love to have. If you would ask me, if it's to compare the grape acyrtico with something else,

I would compare it with an Alsatian Riesling or a German Riesling. Okay. But for sure, the mouth is a totally different from the Rizzlings. Can you walk me through what them is difficult and fragile? state of the wine-making process is. What do you mean difficult? When is it most fragile? The wine.

When you're making the wine, is it like immediately after you put it in the barrel? Is it when you're picking the grapes? If you receive very good quality for the grapes, there is no fragile in something like that. At least what I have seen from the wine maker here and our inologist. I would say the pressing, this is... The pressure. The pressure is the time that you press the grapes.

Oh, interesting. And it's not for the good or bad quality. It's as less as you press, the best quality you receive for the juice. So this is the difference between the winemakers. And the more volume you get, the higher you press, right? So you guys do, what, 300,000 bottles eat? year? We have the potential, this potential, of 400,000 bottles.

Okay. Our aim is the quality and not the quantity. So I would say that we produce approximately 250,000 bottles. But we are talking about six dry white wines, one rosé, two dry reds, Vincando that now we have released in the market 2006, the vintage. So as you understand, it's approximately 24,000. thousand cases of 12 bottles. And are most of those exported to other countries, or most of them consumed?

The percentage is the 35% is in Greece. And the rest, in Greece, I will say, with no Santorini. In Santorini, it's approximately the 15%. Oh, okay. Because of the wine tasting room, so as you understand, there is the people and the guests here that buy a lot. And also the market of Sandorini, it's more easy for you to sell a Sandorinian wine. You are in the wine region.

Right. And the 50% is exported, yes. Okay. The States, Canada, Germany, Belgium, Belgium, Japan, Hong Kong, China. And can you, just to go back for one second, can you walk me through why you produce so many different varieties? Is that just because the grapes? So many different varieties or labels. Yeah.

Labels. Yes, great variety is the same, but the labels are... It's the wine maker. Yeah. He will never stop experimenting. How do you experiment with that? Do you kill them off if they're not working or they don't turn it the way you want? Of course we kill them off if they're not working.

And I noticed the vineyard was called an experimental vineyard. Yeah, we are sitting next to our first experimental, the eretical vineyard, as they called it in 1997. First Parcigalas started experimenting on the variety, which the name, name is Mavro Tragano. I won't be spelling that. Mavro means black and Tragano means crunchy. Okay.

So it's black and crunchy in a word. So Parisigalas is one of the first winemakers and Hajidakis. Another winemaker from Pyrgyz village that they're starting experimenting in red grapes. Until 1997, the red grapes used to be used for their naturally sweet dessert wines. And they used to be a small percentage

in red grapes in the Vincando. Since 2002, and under the legislation, you are not allowed to use red grapes in the Vincando production. So there were, as you understand, a very small percentage for the red grapes, 0.05, something like that. So they started to report.

planting this variety that was under extinction and until today we managed to produce 8,000 to 10,000 bottles of 100% of mavro-tragano in dry version this is the first vineyard that surrounds the wine tasting room in 1997 and until today we own 10 hectares of high-density planting of mavro-tragano we're talking about about 7,500 plants per hectare. Okay. Oh no, 750 plants per hectare. Oh, no, no, 7,500,000 per hectare.

And we do a green harvest. So we receive the same yield even from the trellis system. Because as you understand, on the traditional pruning, you receive very low yield. Yeah. So we receive the same yield even with a trellis system and with a high density in planting. and we do a green harvest.

We cut approximately half of the clusters 20 days before the harvest of the Mavro-Tragono for the dry red wine. And with these clusters, we are producing our rosé wine from Mavro-Tragono. With the ones that you cut 20 days before. Exactly. That's interesting.

Do you guys use any pesticides or anything or is it all natural? It's an unorganic land. Okay. It's a volcanic soil. We might use copper or sulfides, but with a very low percentage if it's needed for the mildew or oidium. But 10 years now, for me, it occurs twice. For sure, you put for sulfide, some sulfites in order to prevent something like that, an appearance.

But there is no reason for pesticides. It's an unorganic land. Volcano saved us. Not only us, you know, it's the fava beans, it's everything. It's tomatoes, it's the white eggplants, everything. The wine maker on the back, photo shooting. Just switching directions a little bit. What is the best part of showing people from all over the world the wines that you're producing here?

What do you mean, sorry? What's the best part of that expression of what you guys are trying to? do and people come here and they sit down I mean there's 12 there's a pruning there's traditional pruning is that different ways of unification is the history of course the names are very hard to to say like asyrtico a thiri a idani it's not merlo shardonnais or but most of the people that are visiting domain sigalas at least they live and they remember asyrtico right this is very important and for sure They get familiar with a variety that it's very rare and it has a great potential of aging.

Are you guys open all year round or is it? In the wine tasting room, you mean or the winery? No, the wine tasting room. We will try this this year. We are for sure open from March up to the end of December. January, February, it's a little bit difficult season not only for the people that live permanently on the island. but also for the guests that are visiting. In any case, if you send an email, someone sends an email,

is always more than welcome in the wine tasting room. January, February, it's not that often. Right. But for sure, we will open if someone asks for something like that. But from March and up to the end of December, we are for sure open every day except the Easter day. Okay. every day. And how can people find you? You mean that we are out of the caldera.

How can be, like, do you recommend, like, I guess, how do people get here? We are lucky because after 14 years now of the wine tasting room, we started like, you know, taste the four different labels that we own. Now we have 11 different labels for the wines, plus seven labels for the new release that we did right now for. a case of seven wines from different villages and we produce also some distilates. Oh, cool.

After 14 years, first of all, the internet. So Domain Sigal is mostly for people that are from the States or Canada. It's a very well-known winery. The hotels, it's a huge help. The hotels from

all the island. And it's something you have to do. You know, it's like you're coming in Sandorin. It's not the beach, the caldera, the food, the gastronomical destination. It's also the wine. Here we have also a restaurant that we do something like a food pairing. We use our own local products. We plant our favel, we plant our tomatoes, our zucchini, everything.

So it's our production. And also we buy from the growers, anything that it's in season. and we do a food pairing with our wines. So would you recommend when people come here to visit the tasting room that they do the food pairing with the wine? Yeah. And would you recommend that they do all the wines? I noticed that you distinguish between just the dry wines

and then the dry and the sweet. Yeah, most of the people do not prefer the dessert wines. For sure, if you are visiting Sandorini, you have to drink Vinciando. Yeah. It has such a distinct... It's, for me, it's one of the best dessert wines that are produced all over the world. Yeah.

I want to talk about short term. But for sure, Vinsando is something like a totally different approach, we would say. And just one more question before we, I let you go here. But what would you like all tourists to know that they don't know on Santorini? Ha, nice question. For sure, all, all. The visitors, I would say guests. It's people that for sure drink wine, yeah?

Yeah. I mean, who doesn't drink wine, really? Yeah, no one. To explore the wine region, not only the caldera and the sunset of Santorini. Hopefully, listening to you will help people come here and explore this. Highly recommended. Yes, hopefully, you know. Hey guys, this is Shane again.

Just a few more things before we wrap up. You can find show notes at Farnhamstreetblog.com slash podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G dot com slash podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript. And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to Farnham Streetblog.com slash newsletter. This is all the good stuff I've found on the web that we that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more. Thank you for

listening.