The Livy Method Podcast - Community Works Better Than Willpower w/ Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Still relying on willpower to see you through? How well has that worked in the past?In this episode, Gina Livy and learning strategist Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer unpack why sustainable weight loss feels so hard, and it’s not about knowing what to eat. Together, they get into the psychology of behaviour change, why overwhelm shows up even when the plan is simple, and how to choose a path that actually works for you (without burning you out). It’s a practical conversation about mastering the “how” behind starting, staying, and showing up for yourself, especially when life gets messy (because when isn't life messy!?). If you’ve ever struggled with motivation, follow-through, or feeling like you have to do ALL THE THINGS to be successful, this one will hit home.You can find the full video hosted at:www.facebook.com/groups/livymethodspring2026Where to find Dr. DeenaInstagram: @awakenedlearningWebsite: www.awakenedlearning.caDr. Deena's books:Feel Good LearningRaising Well LearnersTo learn more about The Livy Method, visit livymethod.com. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm going to be honest with you, this podcast is unapologetically a hot mess because that is what midlife feels like sometimes. Why, though? And how do we make it better? Do we all just need facelifts and gLP ones? I mean, let's talk about it. No bullshit, no wellness wangery here because we're trying to make real change and change is hard. But we're in this together. Welcome to the Living Method podcast.

You know, as much as I run these weight loss and maintenance programs, it's not, really an information problem. Like we know what we need to do. The hard part is how do you start, how do you stay and how do you come back, right? When life gets in the way without burning it all down. My guest today, Dr. Dina Kara Schaefer is a learning strategist. She is the author of the book Feel Good Learning and Raising Well Learners. She works a lot with students. But we have a lot that we can learn from her. So let's introduce, Dina. Hi. Hi, Tina. I feel like I haven't seen you in a while. I know. Well, I'm hot off a plane from Italy. So I missed the panel last week. And I got all the lovely notes from Dr. B and Dr. Linka. But it's wonderful to be here. It's wonderful to see you.

And it's wonderful to be with the community here always. Well, you really do. complete us, Dina. You know, really, because if you think about it, it's not the, it's not the what to do, right? It's, it's, it's not that. It's, it's, it's not starting. It's not, it's like, it's staying. It's, it's, well, it is starting. And it's following through. It's the, it's the, it's the beginning in the middle and the end. And it's all seems to be really messy and difficult for so many reasons at so many times. Let's get right into it today, because I have missed you. So here we are, week one. Week one. I think people are feeling less and less overwhelmed because I keep telling them not to be. It's a, it's only a bossy. You're like, now listen. Here's what we're not going to do. We're not going to freak out day one. That's, did Gina get bossy last week? I love that. I love that. Yeah. There's like a lot of information. Like, look, there's a book, right? There's a lot of resources. We have our app, of course, which is the easy way to follow. Then we have the Facebook group for community and support. We have. We have. our book, we have our journals. This book has a lot of information in it. Really the need to know stuff is simply the guidelines each week. The rest is all supplemental. So why do we feel overwhelmed when we have the resources and there's not a lot to do? But where does that come from? Yeah. Well, I think that we equate accessibility and availability. You have made a ton of

information available. But you have never ever said, well, do all of this, do every kind of pathway that I make available. Instead, what you're saying is, look, there's a lot of different humans who are along this journey with a lot of different ways of being and showing up in life contexts. I want it to be accessible for them. And those are not the same things. Just because the book and the app and the Facebook group and the journal and are available to you does not mean you need to access them all at once. You are trying to include everyone, but that doesn't mean we do everything. So as a human who works with folks with ADHD, and you know what, there's a lot of folks who are experiencing the menopausal journey. Yes. People who are caregiving. There are people who are

exhausted. There are people who are grieving. There are people who are heartbroken over the world. Let's keep going. Yeah. There's a lot of things that impact our capacity to think and plan and decision make and prioritize ourselves. So you are offering accessible pathways. And the beautiful thing is when people choose one or two or three, like I'm going to get the book and I'm going to tune in live. I'm going to choose the app and I'm going to focus on journaling. Yeah. Great. Great. Start there. You will already be reducing your overwhelm. So I just want to remind people that I don't think you've ever, ever said, do all. You've said enact your agency. You choose, you choose a combination that's best for you.

How do we choose, though? And what's the timeline on that? Like, what's the process to choose? Right? And I say this, you say this, but what's the process of, I know this sounds maybe really simplistic, but what's the process of choosing and figuring out what works for you? I'm like, oh, nothing. So I'm going to try them all and then probably get overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. And then burn out, right? But I love, I actually don't think your question is simple at all. I think it's so poignant. And look, we have been surrounded in a culture of this like Simon Sinek, What's Your Why? And I am obviously. obviously not like anti-meaning or anti-purpose. Okay. Yeah. You have to know, or it's very helpful to know, what has brought you here, what drives

you, what, like, gives you that uplift to keep going. But my entire life and career and research and teaching and my joy is what is the how. So I'm not going to turn down an invitation to be on Simon Cynix podcast. Like I'm just saying, that's fine. Like I would totally engage in that conversation. but I am involved in what is your how. So your question is the center of my life, whether I'm talking with a student or a family

or a corporate audience. We don't talk about that. I will just say everyone, learning strategies are getting their moment in the sun. Head of Google AI says this generation's most needed skill, this upcoming generation is learning how to learn. We have so much what? What do I do with it?

how do I absorb it? How do I integrate it? So when you ask, like, wait, how do I even know what I like? I go easy, easy, easy. What feels like the simplest, most easeful next step or what feels resonant or what can just fit right in to your schedule without you having to contort anything? Are you already on a commute or a walk or something that allows you to listen in at 9 o'clock? in the morning, boom, there's your answer. Do you love the feeling of book? Great, there's your answer. You're already on your phone all day and you only can do like kind of check-ins digitally. Great. You have enabled all of that. So the first step is keep it simple. What is most easeful that will slip into your routine? So there's the why. Why someone signed up to lose weight, why they are losing weight. The how is how do I actually do this with the resources that I need.

People are trying to lose weight. They're trying to maintain their way. They're trying to reach a goal. What's that next step? Is that the do? How do I do? Yeah. How do I make this a part of my every day? We're not here to like visit or drop in. This isn't a when I feel like it program. This is I'm going to do it even if I don't feel like it program. and that's where it gets interesting. So how do I engage with the material? How do I make sure that day to day is as easyful as possible to follow? And that could be around time. You know what?

I can do this. I can read a little bit of this book, you know, maybe at lunch. I'm always on my phone scrolling. That's not helping me. I'm going to get the book and I'm going to read a couple pages every day. Or I'm going to insist that between waking up and before I jump up, to bed, I'm going to do a little journaling. I'm going to engage with some of the prompts and the invitations that you give folks to think about. It's, you know what, like, I just listen to news

that depresses the crap out of me at the end of the day. I'm going to turn on the podcast. So I would look for the pockets where it is useful to just pop one engagement with the liby method in per day. Yeah. It has to be a, it's not like it's going to be, it's not. It's not. It's not, without frustration or challenge, but day one, week one, week two, we can at least make the bridge like convenient. How do you make engaging with this program at the very start? Convenient. Why? If we have too much friction right away, what are we going to do? Mom, that's not program for me. It only worked for hundreds of thousands of people, but like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're going to make up all kinds of things that like, no, no, no, no, she doesn't know this thing do everything.

Do one thing. Make sure there's time set aside. And it won't just happen. Like, oh, it'll just happen. Nothing just happens. How can you protect time?

That's, I mean, I know we'll talk about it later as the weeks go on, but that's how you foreground your own health. No one's going to do it for you. You're going to keep showing up. I know Eugene. You're going to show up every day.

Yeah. But everyone in the community has to show up in some form. every day too. I want to go 10 different places. But when you said show up in some form, some people can do all the things. Like there's so many things you could do to be proactive about losing your weight. There's a lot of things that you can actually do besides what to eat and

wet, like manage your stress, try to get better at quality sleep, moving your body. Like, there's so many things that you can do to be as proactive as possible. Some people can do all the things and have all the time in the day to follow perfectly. And some people are legit hanging on by the skin or their teeth.

How can someone honor like this is where I'm at? Like we offer so much value in this program, for example, right? So much value. The app is a value even without the 91 day programs. Watching the guest segments are a value even without the 91 day programs. Yet if I'm not doing all the things, I am failing. How do we just honor where we are at right now? and have that be enough.

Yeah. Well, thank God for Dr. Beverly when we encounter that. To be honest. So I guess I would just say that that's where it gets interesting. There's our first invitation. If I'm not doing everything, I'm failing already. Well, maybe that's our starting point, that that's what this brought us here. You said, very interestingly, some people can do it all.

And I think I would push back a little and say, some people can do it all. all, but for a short period of time, right? If you happen to be in a moment or a season in your life where what, you're retired, your health is perfect, nobody is sick. Uh, everything, like the wind is at your back. Amazing. We are cheering you on. Go. Go. Keep running. Right. But it, we're, we're looking at sustainability. We're not looking at a sprint. You know, a lot of us can do a sprint. But you're asking us for the long haul to reconsider, wait, when I get, you know, we're going to be a sprint. You know, a lot of us can do a sprint. You know, I get very upset or stressed or tired, what are my coping go-toes? When I feel very hurt by somebody, what do I do?

When I make a mistake or I fumble, what is my inside voice? Like you just offer us like one provocation after another after another of self-inquiry. This is a big project that we're on. And so yes, a sprint is doable where we can do a lot of things. You're not asking us to do that. So can we actually accept and practice on purpose an imperfect, imperfect day? Because if the benchmark is, I have to do everything or I fail, how many days then are we going to make it? And then we're going to be like, well, I just got to start over.

No, don't start over. What are we like? A couple days? No, no, no, no, no. There's information. That's feedback. How hard are we on herself? What happens if we are a nurse or we have an overnight shift or we are a travel agent,

or a flight attendant? Like what happens if we've lost our job? What happens? What happens? What happens? What happens? What happens? We don't get many moments in our life where the full constellation is just on our side.

Great if it is. But if it's difficult and you can do this much, amazing, keep doing this much. Do this much. Do it imperfectly. and that's what I mean you show up to some extent. This is a bit of a pivot, but I'm reading some of the comments. You know, there's a one of our members here struggling after her son passing away, someone else dealing with parents.

Grief is such a big part of our everyday lives. We honestly don't talk about trying to get shit done while we're dealing with grief. We got, we're carrying a lot of weight beyond our physical weight and big feels. How do we, because you have to keep going. You will never reach your goal unless. you just keep going, how do we do it carrying all that extra weight that we carry? Well, I think we set ourselves for the end, not the but, that we can be grieving and taking care of ourselves. We can be heartbroken and have 10 minutes of fresh air per day.

We can be deep, deeply bereaved and we can still make food choices that don't make us feel worse. I am, this is perhaps the thing that is the tenderest for me. You know this. I lost both my parents when I was in my mid-20s. My life has been shaped by grief and bereavement. I don't, I agree. I don't think we have nearly enough conversations about how people do life when they are also heartbroken. But I think it's a very rich and worthwhile conversation because it's not about doing this program only when we're not. We're not about doing this program only when we're. We're not. We're not. We're not. We're not. We're not. We're not. We're not. We're not. But I think it's a very rich and worthwhile conversation. I'm only when we're not a very rich and worth life is simple and straightforward. I think you're inviting the other thing. What happens when it isn't? What do we eat when it isn't? What do we move when it isn't? How do we sleep when it isn't?

You're talking about that when life isn't perfectly lined up in our favor. Hi there. I'm Terry Hart. And my podcast, The Heart of It All, is all about navigating the messy, beautiful, complicated realities of caregiving. Every week, I sit down with experts and families to talk honestly about what it means to be a caregiver. If you want to know what to expect when you inevitably become a caregiver, you should join us. The Heart of It All, that's Heart spelled H-A-R-T, new episodes every week wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I mean, this program has evolved in such a way is, yes, of course,

people want to lose weight. We have a weight loss program. Yes, after they have. lost weight. We have a maintenance program to help them maintain weight. But now with our members, that we have this support in between. So the program goes all day, every day, 365 days of the year. And sometimes there's moments in that year where it's not about gaining weight or it's just about, it's not about weight loss, weight loss, weight gain. It's about just putting one foot in front of the other. And that's what I love because everything that we're doing, like you have to eat, so why not make the healthiest choices, right? trying to get better quality sleep, managing your stress for stressful times, moving your body,

which can help with everything. You know the program, Dina. It's kind of like there is no end game because, yeah, there's no end. And I have to say there's one part of the constellation we need to name. Community. You don't have to do it alone. Like that for me might be the most compelling part of your program is that, when life gets tough, you get to be alongside other humans who are still trying to make a handful

of healthy choices in their day. You know, Gina, we got really dark there. My kid this morning said to me, well, mom, like, you're looking pretty moody today. I guess this might come on, like, wearing pink and stuff. She's like, is it the jet lag? I don't know. You look good, Mom, but it's like a whole moody vibe you've got going on. You're right. We just went dark. Everyone, it's a joyful program. My gosh, sometimes is like really celebratory and good too. Whoa. You know, I just, I'm trying to, you know, I'm going through an identity crisis lately, trying to figure out like, what am I doing here? And how am I helpful and how am I serving? And it's so complex. It's so complex. Like you help students, for example, get a A, get a B, just past. That's a goal, right?

It's like a concrete, past this class, pass this. this course, become a doctor, like there's something concrete there. It just seems like for us trying to reach our goal weights, the post is always moving. And then even when we get there, we're not happy. And then even when we get there, we can lose it. So it's, it's the same, can we use the same strategies for passing a course as we do with this? Gosh, it's because, because it's not really passing the course.

It's about the inputs, not the outputs. People will lose weight when they eat nourishing food and begin to have a different relationship with their hunger cues. They will lose weight when they sleep better, when they become more informed and attuned to this like hormonal waves. Right? Like the weight loss is that beautiful, happy consequence. Like that that's the getting an A. No, people don't come to me and say, I want an A. I know they'll get one. Yeah. What's more interesting is I'm going to teach you how to study and I'm going to teach you how to manage your time so it's not always so urgent and frenzied. And I'm going to teach you how to take notes that aren't just transcribing. I'm going to teach you all the component parts. The A will be the beautiful consequence. You and I, I mean, I'm not equating us, Gina, I'm

aiming for what you do. Come on. Stop. It are extraordinary. It is about the inputs. It is about the daily practice. And then the outputs follow. It's the natural consequence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I first created this program as a lifestyle program. I couldn't sell it to save my life. People were like, I don't want to do lifestyle. I want to lose weight. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you do these things, this will happen. You will lose the weight. And they're like, no, I just want to lose weight. And it's just like, oh, fine, fuck. It's a diet. But then you show them it is a lifestyle program because people stay. And they're like, well, I started my way. wait, I really like I really like everybody and it keeps me motivated and accountable.

And like I've got pals and then I go walking. Yeah, it is a lifestyle program. That's just in our weird marketing world, not as compelling as this, this thing that's going to happen to you. But the thing that's going to happen to you is you're going to feel more connected and more rested and more in tune with who you are and more compassionate. Yeah. What do you?

Do we journal? What do you do? Give us some strategies. I hate journaling. I love it. I like I listen I'm like a learning strategist who hates journaling I hate it I hate it I hated so much

what am I writing when am I writing I could be doing other things but I think that that's part of it. This is like my journaling a million pieces of paper all over the place and then I just recycle it at the end of the day I can't come up with an acronym Bev where are you I can't come up with an acronym it's not about journaling

Look, it's not about meditating. It's not about any singular thing. And it's certainly not about having that imposed on you. Here's what I would say. One is if you have a preconceived idea about any of the things that you offer or suggest, I would try it, especially if you feel resistant. If you're like, I don't know about that journaling thing, but I've never tried it. Great, try it. Try it.

Try it. Try it for the 91 days. Great. Yeah. But if you know that you don't just resonate with something, that you're not. That's okay. Full permission. I give you permission. Gina can get bossy. I give you permission to be like, that's cool. You don't have to do that thing. You could do the other thing that Gina is saying is a possibility. What about commitment though? What if I say, okay, gosh, darn it, I'm going to journal. I know it will be good for me.

I love the idea of it. And then I journal and it's hard or I forget or I just, like at what point is their commitment following through on something. and getting past the hardness of it and then just deciding, yeah, fuck it, it's not for me. Like, where's the line? Where's the line? Yeah, yeah. I think that's so brilliant. I mean, I would give anything a couple of weeks and then I would really, I would investigate. Like, did insight come? Did I learn something? Did something new emerge or helpful? The whole point is this is supposed to be helpful? Yes, it's a project. Yes, there will be discomfort. Yes, you will face many, many moments where you don't want to do something and you have to do it anyways. But I just don't collapse those things because you're offering tools, right? You're allowed to like one app and not another in your time management system. You're

allowed to use Google Calendar. You're allowed to use to do it. Like there's so many different things. You're allowed to experiment. So I'm a big fan of this idea of experimentation. You try this thing out. You're not not committing to the program. You're just experimenting with one of the strategies, tools or invitations. So you don't have to love the app. App is very, very helpful. You don't have to personally love it. It's the book for you.

You're committed to the program. That's a different thing. So the commitment there, I mean, and you know I'll say this anytime you have me on, we don't ask ourselves on the daily, on the weekly. We don't even really ask ourselves within the commitment we've made to do this program. Do I feel like doing this? No, fuck no.

never. That's not a trustworthy question. Like do I feel like working out? No. Has there ever been a time in the history of the world where I've gone for a walk outside and felt worse after? Never. I do it because I know that it is good for me in a myriad of different ways. So we commit to the program, but we don't have to commit to a tool that when we find out isn't working for us, we can let it go and try something else. I wouldn't want people. people to feel stuck or trapped, that feels impositional to me. And you've offered so many different tools. So if you know journaling isn't for you, you know what? You can try voice memos. I mean, that's a really powerful tool that's emerging more and more in therapeutic settings, that that can work really

well. I mean, my goodness, is there any middle-aged women who doesn't send audio texts to their pals? It's so convenient. You walk in the dog, you're cooking the dinner for your kids. They're like, okay, I need to respond to this thing from you two weeks ago. I'm just going to do it right here and now. Sorry, there's 100 different sounds. It's very helpful. So do the thing that works for you. I remember. We've always noted for you.

But like it just happens that way. Well, my, I remember, I don't even call anyone anymore. I just send voice. Voice notes. Remember when my friend Lynn first sent it to me? I'm like, what? What is this? And the first I thought it was like a voice message, but no, because I don't have to click, click, click

and put it in a password. You remove the obstacle. of the two seconds it takes to click the voicemail. Now we just listen to it's great. I read it. I just click on it and they read the train scamp. This is brilliant. Oh my gosh.

Do you think you know this program? You know what people are doing. It's very good. So anyone who are new to each other, I've done the program. I've done the program four or five times. I love it. Yeah. And what do you foresee as you talked to lots of our members as like the really the obstacles

need to know for people right now to just try to just. wrap them in a blanket of what? Yeah. So trying to do too much all at once, that sets us up for failure. So if we really think about what the theme is today is setting yourself up for success. What are the things that you can in a way like stack the decks in your favor? Okay. So what I know is that if I prep my meals ahead of time, if I plan the grocery list on a Sunday,

if I set out the things at the start of the day, if I begin the day with reading two pages of your book, Gina, if I tune in every day at nine, that gives me the boost I need. If I check in and ask one question on Facebook, like, figure out your recipe that does not include all of the ingredients that Gina has offered. Make your own recipe from all of what is on offer. That is not everything. The second is I think that we underestimate how long it can take to build routine. And that is part of easefulness. We want some automaticity. We want some of this to just be automatic. Now that's, and people are going to be like, wait, she changes the program every couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah.

There are changes that come. They're modifications. They're tweaks. But your approach to it doesn't have to change. Every Saturday, I write out the meal. plan and on Sundays I go to no frills. Every morning at 6.30 in the morning, I do my journaling or at the end of the day a reflection. Yes, yes, the little logistics of the day might be different according to what you're inviting people to do. But we don't ask ourselves too early. Is this working?

Is this a habit yet? Do I feel like it? We just keep doing it, even if we're not in the mood. You know, my favorite line, right, is like follow the plan, not your mood. Yes. That sometimes gets misunderstood as like your emotional life doesn't matter. No, your emotional life matters a lot. Yeah. But the mood is like a weather pattern that changes. And that's not reliable.

So if yesterday I said today I'm going at 10 o'clock for a walk, I don't then at 9.55 go, do I really feel like going? We don't ask ourselves that. we were very clear the day before and so we don't let the temporary weather changes so i feel foggy i'm i'm not sure i'm not motivated i'm not motivated to work out come on no come on no but you do after and you're like oh that was good i feel very i feel very proud i feel accomplished i'm not going to ask myself tomorrow if i'm going to move i'm going to do it because i know what happens afterwards motivation like comes after action yes yes so many people are waiting until they're motivated. I, um, I should probably end there, but I want to just,

let's say I feel like an absolute failure. I just cannot get my shit together. I just don't have the motivation. I want to do this. I know I should do this. I need to do this. But I just, every day I feel like a failure. How do I get past that? And then you feel like a failure because you maybe you're not, you signed up for this thing and you're not doing it. But like I, I went to the gym the other day, first time in a year. I, refuse to cancel my membership because I don't want to give up on myself. I'm like Tony's like, you're not using. I'm like, I don't care. I'm going to. And I did. Gosh, I felt like I was like the most amazing person on the planet first time in a year. But how do we, that was hard. I didn't want to

go. Tony dragged me. He's like, if you come to the gym, we'll buy you wine that I didn't end up drinking, but that's besides the point. How do we, when we're feeling like in the dump, like we're in the trash can of emotion, failure. Oh, I just cannot. How do we, like, what's a how do we get how do we do or how do we feel like we're just not epically failing it's a lot and it's a lot to dump you like okay final question wrap it up dina also could you answer the saddest most layered question sure jina no problem um well let's use your story as the moral. Your cherished partner served as a real accountability buddy there and said,

I'm going to help be the bridge until you're in the rhythm of going. That's not always a solution, but it's not a bad one to have in your repertoire of things to try. There are a lot of people who are here, who are experienced with this program, who are also feeling like it's pretty tough or like they're failing, already, find a pal here. You do not have to do this alone. The number of people that I hear from, that wind up connecting, that find that, that find that rhythm because of another per, I'm having a really tough day. I don't want to follow anything. No, keep going. Keep going. So is it around an accountability buddy? That's one really good possibility. Another one is, my goodness, if that's the thing,

like I feel like a failure, it is worth spending time on the tone and the content of what's going on up here. It's too soon to have failed at anything. It's too soon. You can't fail as long as you keep going. There's information here. So if if the only metric is, I'm going to lose 45 pounds in two weeks. Well, I'm like everyone's failing. Well, I'm failing. We're failing. If it is, Why am I here? I know that I'm here to learn something. I'm here because my heart feels heavy and I want something to shift. I'm here because my sleep is shit. I'm here because I have this intention, but then it is eight or nine o'clock at night and it feels like my day kick the crap out of me and I want to eat to comfort ensue. Great. Then there's the thing you're here to learn. There's stuff that we're

all the work. We're like looking under the rock. So what what rock are you? you looking under? And so I just, I think that that is fertile ground to do some real inquiry. How can you be failing already? What is the metric that you're using? Because that's a pretty punishing one. If you just got here and you're like, oh, I lost. I lost at Gina. I'm like, I don't think so. No, I don't want to go. You can deal. I don't, I love, I love everyone here. I love this. More questions. More complicated. I was just reading Margo, I haven't like, it, If you don't have an accountability person for you, that's what this conversation and the community in our Facebook support group or community group, that's what it's all about. I want you to know that you're not alone.

I go through these things. Dina goes through these things, right? And there is no to-do list for you today. This is just a conversation of awareness. And if somebody- Turn off the music. Gina's being very insightful right now. Jody, come on. He's like, TikTok, ladies. Don't worry. Dina is going. going to be back. You can also pick up her books on Amazon, feel good learning, also through Dina's own website, awakenedlearning.ca. You can also follow her on Instagram. She offers so many really cool things that you can benefit from, especially if you have students in your life. So be sure to go check her out. And then you're going to be on breakfast television. I saw when?

Tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning. Talking about prioritization. How can we not have everything feel urgent? Okay, Rockstar. There you go. I'm trying to be like, Tina. Stop. I'm trying to be like you. Thanks, everyone who joined us live. Listen, when you are vulnerable and you share and you comment and you ask questions,

that creates community. You are community and we are so grateful for you and we appreciate you. Thanks for joining us. Have a fantastic rest of your day. And Dina, as always, I can't wait to our next conversation. See you. Bye. Love you.

Love you guys.