The Livy Method Podcast - Learning to Embrace Change with Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer - Fall 2025

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

In this powerful episode, Gina welcomes back Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer, learning strategist and author, for a conversation that hits deep. Together, they explore why real change can feel so hard—especially when you want it more than anything. As the Livy Community steps into the downsizing week of The Program, the discussion gets real about food scarcity, fear of hunger, self-sabotage, and why it’s not just about what you eat, but how you relate to your body, your past, and your big, hopeful goals. With raw honesty and insight, Gina and Deena unpack purposeful frustration, the discomfort of growth, and the difference between just losing weight and actually healing. This one’s for anyone who's ever asked, “Why is it so hard to do the thing I know I want to do?”.You can find the full video hosted at:www.facebook.com/groups/livymethodfall2025Where to find Dr. DeenaInstagram: @awakenedlearningWebsite: www.awakenedlearning.caTo learn more about The Livy Method, visit livymethod.com. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Gina Livy, and welcome to the Livy Method podcast. This is where you'll have access to all of the live streams for my 91-day weight loss program. With a combination of daily lives, guest expert interviews, and member stories, there is something new almost every day. Miss the morning live? Want to re-listen to one of our amazing guest experts? Well, this is the place. This podcast is hosted on ACAST, but it's available on all podcast platforms, including the one you're listening to right now, Spotify, Apple, and Amazon Music.

We're focusing on sustainable habits, not quick-fixing. Is it an opportunity to get curious? We're here to help people get to their health goals. One piece each of time. You build and build and build. Ah, man, we know we have to make change to see change. My goodness, it's so damn hard. To change. Why is that? That's the big question today. We are going to be discussing what Dr. Dina Karas Schaefer, world-renowned learning, learning, author of a few books. I hear you're working on your third. Feel Good Learning, Raising Well Learners. And what's the third book? Can you say? Yeah, a new way to learn. For first years, for first year students, international book, this one is. And so all those humans who are wrestling with the same, with transition, how to go a little more smoothly.

Oh, I love that. Okay, let's get right into it today. So we're week four of the program and we are downsizing. So people have gotten used to following the basic food plan. They're eating all their meals and snacks, making them nutrient rich. They've been eating enough to feel satisfied. And now this week, it is slightly unsatisfied and it is throwing people. All sorts of thoughts and feels are popping up. Food waste issues, food scarcity issues, afraid to be hungry, worried that they're going to fuck it all up. And so we need to make change. We cannot just keep doing the same things that we've done before. But rather than why is it so hard, why is it so important to change? Let's talk about that. Well, that's what I think folks are here to do. That's why folks have signed up. Right.

Because if they kept going the way they were going, the same things would happen. And so folks are here with big hopeful hearts, trying to shift something to learn or see something a new, trying to heal something that hurts. They're trying to relate, I'm guessing, but I don't want to speak for any human, but I mean, I've done this program a number of times too. I think this community is here to relate to their bodies and their relationships and food and movement in a different way. That difference is the change we're talking about. That's what we're here to do. We want it to feel and go differently. Oh, and we want it so bad, big hopeful hearts. Even just you saying all of that,

that's so deep. And it's a lot. I love that. Go back and rewind and listen to that again and again, because it really encompasses what most people here are here to do. There are people who follow along, do the guidelines, lose their weight, easy, peasy, one and done, and off they go. And I love that for them but for most of us it's way more complicated than that and that's a lot because I think so many of us feel deserving because we've been at this for so long so much time energy money you've done all the things that everyone said to do it's not from lack of effort that you haven't reached your goals already so it means so much to so many and then so many are like when I lose my weight I'm going to this we're going to start dating I'm going to start a business going to quit my job

I'm going to move. I'm going to do all these things. So so many people are waiting on reaching this big goal to really start living their lives in a way that they feel they should be living. And so obviously that takes a lot of change. And yet we are sabotaging ourselves. We're freaking ourselves out. We get paralyzed by the fields that we have because it's a lot.

Mm-hmm. A lot. Yeah. So shifting the structure of our life. So we're creating a different pace or cadence. So when we eat and how we eat and when we move and when we sleep and when we tend to our stress. So there's like a structural piece that we're shaping that's the habits.

We're making new habits. We're making different signposts in our day. We're changing the flow of things. We are also shifting any shame we feel. We're bringing it to the surface on purpose. Use the word like this can be an unsatisfying week. People are dealing with dissatisfaction this week. Yes.

Yeah. I think of that as like, purposeful unsettling like you're purposefully frustrating people it's a provocation on purpose because those issues are there they reside in us the scarcity piece the what if the connection with money the connection with waste are upbringing every message we've been bombarded with in words and images it's all there it's all lodged in us but in order for us to kind of heal and smooth that it needs to It needs to rise up. So you're doing it on purpose. So there's structure and there's shame. There's a sense of kind of can we feel safe? Can we tend to our own sense of safety? There is trust. You're asking us to trust, to practice trust, to come to terms with that. We've been kind of duped along the way. So it's very, very purposeful. So in my field of work, working with students of all ages, I would parallel this to like purposeful frustration,

to be able to sit with frustration on purpose. Why? Because you're asking us to build skills. You're asking us to come up with a different toolbox. You want us to cope with life's challenges in different ways than eating or self-deprivation or moving too much or all of the unkindness, the mean, meanness that we carry in here with self-criticism. You're asking us, you're inviting us.

so warmly and so skillfully, hey, why don't we try it a different way? So of course it is unnerving. Of course it doesn't feel good. And of course, by design, is inflaming the sorrest, most tender spot. It is. And thank you for saying that. It is intentional by design. And yes, I've had many people in the past say well why don't we just do this later on in the program because for four weeks including prep week one week two week three you've been following along you want more you want to do more and you are ready for it it's just some people they run they're like they they they try to find a what i call a loophole or well can i do can i switch weeks can i do this differently can i just do this can i just do that can i whatever and trying to to change it or run

from it because they they don't want to do it because it's making them feel uncomfortable. Awesome. And then that's where we lean in. That's exactly where we lean in. When it feels like we're flying without a safety net, that's when we lean in. So if we're feeling like, okay, Gina, can I do a little switcheroo here? Can I do this, not this, this, this, not this? Wow, look at what's coming up and you know if we can bring humor bring lightness and all the self-compassion you can muster because there's that old stuff there's all of that deep patterning the deep grooves going like wait what's my way out surely i don't have to be uncomfortable wait what if what if what it let's if we can if we can even if it's in super small ways can can we lean in to where it's challenge

So in the kind of outdoor education world, there's this idea of challenge by choice. So why do people go in really arduous treks? Why do people put themselves through really difficult adventures? It's challenged by choice. And there's like an accompanying thought of there's more in us than we know. If only we were made to see it. And so for everyone here who's like feeling unsettled and feeling unsettled and feeling like they're trying to find the workarounds. Remember that this is engaging with challenge

by choice why, because we're going to face all kinds of challenges that are going to throw us. And so what differently can we turn to? What new patterns, new ways of tending to ourselves, new ways of treating ourselves are here for the making. A lot of people look for motivation to do that. They're like, I'm not motivated. I need motivation. I see this comment popping up from Laura. Thank you. I would love some ideas to get motivated the second time around. I keep getting stuck in the I already know this loop and struggling to get going this time around. I mean, right there, and I love this, Laura, but you don't already know this because you don't know what you need to get motivated and move forward, right? Like right there, you kind of already know what your struggle is. So a lot of people struggle with this motivation. Can you just talk on that for a little bit? oh yes so we have four hours right like there's nothing i love more because think of who i support right it's like learners who have to keep going to school and they've started a semester and they're like this semester it's going to be different i'm not i'm going to i'm going to study earlier i'm going to

write my i'm not going to procrastinate as much and then what happens right without different systems that hope had no structure it had no new architecture to it so then what Right? Hope is not a plan. Hope's not a plan. We want hope. Of course we want hope. We would love. We would love if motivation was on our side. That's like having the wind at your back. But that's where it's interesting is when we're not motivated. So here's what I have to say about motivation in a nutshell. So I work with so many humans who have, for example, ADHD and their attention is fragmented. And what's a really common experience is novelty seeking. I want this to be new. I want this to be new. I want this to be new. We love it, right? Like, we're, we're wired to be like, ooh, I love new things. I love a new outfit. I love a new trip to plan. I love, I love, I love new. Who doesn't love new? Yeah. Okay, so I just, the challenge is you talk about set points so well, right? Set point and you're shifting set point. There's also a set point in our kind of like inner psychological world. And I'm very good at staying in my lane. We're going to

let Dr. Beverly do her work. I'm here as a learning strategist and specialist, but there is also a set point, hedonic adaptation. We very, very quickly adapt so that the new thing isn't new. So what we can, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Conversation. Okay, sorry. I just am like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, bless, bless. I was so glad. So first, understand that we are wired to like get over the new vibes real fast. That's just in all of us. Whether or not you have any kind of challenges with attention or like that novelty piece. So just know that we love new. New can feel really thrilling and then it goes away. And that's what we're planning for is like when it's not

new, when it goes away. Okay. So what you can do is replicate that novelty seeking and going fresh eyes. You always use the language of fresh eyes. I might with my kind of inclination and use the language of beginner's mind. So how can you bring a sense of novelty to this? Is it different meals? Is it focusing on different questions and prompts? Is it using one of the like 15 modalities that you present to people? Okay, well, I've been focusing on the Facebook check-ins and lines.

I'm going to focus now on the journal. I'm going to focus on the app. Okay, so find novelty within all the offerings. Okay, so that's one thing you can do. second is tap into your emotional buy-in you need emotional buy-in you have to remember why you care about this or find a different reason to care if you can have that positive emotion that's tied to this the like what are you looking forward to why does this matter to you that can be helpful next is accomplishment motivation doesn't knock on our door it doesn't announce itself and go like

I'm here. I'm ready to carry you through your day, but instead, it is built almost like a skill, a little bit tending to each day. So you look for doing, and when you amass enough doing, look at how many days, look at how many, look at how many steps, look at how many hours I sleep, whatever the metrics you're using for success, begin to notice those because they rack up. And that accomplishment and continuing continuity is motivating. So for my learners who are struggling to see with attendance, I'd be like, get a calendar out, cross off each day, you go to class, connect the Xs in a row. You know what happens after 32 Xs in a row?

You don't want there to be a drop off, right? So what can you do to encourage continuity? That's motivating. Okay. And the last, last piece, this is so important. If you want to read more, actually, there's a lovely book called Tiny Habits, B.J. Fogg. And so one of the ideas is celebrating the small wins, which helps with the rewiring. So it's so funny.

I just lectured about part of this yesterday at TMU. And it's this idea of like, we are Velcro, Velcro for the bad, for everything that's not working. sticks to us oh yeah this isn't working and this isn't working and this happened crap today and this was shit and this is we're like latch on and then we are we are teflon for the good it just slides right off we barely take notice we're hard on ourselves on to the next so not very motivating right if we can help our brain notice the good and the good might be small the good the good might be subtle and nuanced, but that's where change happens. It's in the small and the nuanced over and over and over again. Look there. I was very upset. Normally I would turn to food. Instead,

I took myself for a walk around the block. Boom. That becomes your motivation when you notice it over time. So motivation isn't singular. It doesn't come from a singular place. It is not a constant. It is not reliable. But these are the things that we can do. about it. Okay, I'm going to summarize that in a post later today for everyone. Let's hear from our sponsor today. It's Bombas. It's a feel-good company.

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Livy, L-I-V-Y, for 20% off your first purchase. And it's like people that Velcro for the bad because people just, you know, I have an opportunity to talk to so many people and like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong and the scale hasn't moved. And I'm like, okay, well, it's still normal for the scale not to move at this point. So why is your assumption that you're doing something wrong. Well, I'm following the food plan. I'm drinking my water. And I'm like, okay, are you taking any supplements? No. Are you, what are you doing for exercise? Oh, I'm walking my dog. Okay. Is there anything maybe more you need to do for that? How's your stress? It's fine. What do you got going on in your life? Oh, I'm, you know, I'm dealing with like my aging parents. I'm getting a divorce. And they just,

they can't see it or they don't want to see it. Which one is it? Because I hate to point out the obvious to people, Right. And I'm just like every day we're talking about every day on the check-in. I talk about how it's so normal for the scale not to move yet, except that's people's takeaway. Well, this isn't working for me. What am I doing wrong? And I'm like, I literally have told you every single day. It's normal. And then I tell people what to do. I don't want people to spend money on supplements they don't need to spend. But if they're deficient in vitamin D and not getting omega-3 or magnesium, it really impacts your body's ability to function. And then we have a whole week talking. talking about sleep and stress. And yet I know so many of you listen to those conversations. You're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, but you've done fuck all to make changes about it this week, me include it. So like I'm in the list, right? I'm in the list, y'all. I've got home for my sunny vacation and, you know, working out and meditating. And I said to Tony, why do I feel like garbage? Well, because I'm staying up till 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock watching Netflix and getting up at 6 in the morning. So why do we just, we know what we need to do, but we're not doing it.

and we're resistant to it. So how do we break that? Because it looks like the Velcro for the bad is just like. Yeah, I mean, when I listen to that, like one, how human, that's all of us. We're there. We're all. Yeah. So that, from a strategist perspective, I want to offer people at strategies around habit formation.

Because if what you're describing is sort of like, what you're describing, is I'm going to go on vacation and I'm taken out of my usual context, usual environment, usual flow, and then I'm doing this other stuff, feel good, feel restored, I'm topped up, gas in the tick, and then I come back to the same context environment, and then the habits come right back. Okay, so I'm watching that flow. So what you're describing to me would be well helped by playing around with habits. So one thing you can do is called habit stacking. So for example, if you're trying to, oh my gosh, if you're trying to exercise more, but exercise is new for you. And you're like, okay, I really want to build some foundational functional fitness, like squats and

being able to pick up stuff. That's called a desired behavior. That's the new action that I want in my life desired behavior what i'm going to do to make it simpler because that's what we want we want it to be simple we want there to be a kind of seamlessness we want to streamline this in our lives because it has to fit it can't be complicated then i'm going to insert for example 25 squats or 10 squats and 10 plies and i'm going to insert that either before i brush floss wash my face my usual sequence. I don't have to think about brushing, flossing, washing my face. That's an already set sequence. So habit stacking has me take the new desired behavior and insert that before an already established habit sequence. After, so okay, I've finished washing my face, then I'm

going to do 10 squats, 10 plies, or right in the middle, say, between flossing and my face. That's habit stacking. That's one modality or one approach to turning those new wished for behavior. behaviors, we repeat them enough times, we make it easy enough to fit into our lives, it becomes the new groove, it becomes the new rut, just happens to be a more healthful rat. The other thing I want people to think about is either removing friction or adding friction in. Here's what I mean, the classic example. I want to walk, I want to have a weighted walk, I want to run in the morning. I need to like, because by the end of the day, I'm beat, I'm done for, it's got to be early morning, right? Okay.

So I'm going to what? I'm going to lay out all my clothes. I'm going to have my runners at the door. I'm going to have my playlist set. I'm going to have pre-decided my route. I'm going to have my ID. I'm going to have my, if there's some like reflection or something that's luminate, I'm going to have the stuff that I need to go.

Why? Because if there's too much friction, I get up. Oh, where am I going to go today? Oh, man. My shorts are in the wash. Where are my running shoes? Anyone see my running shoes? What do I want to listen today?

A podcast, an audio book. Pre-decide, set yourself up. It's not just for success. Set yourself up for ease. Set yourself up for like an easy win here. So that's removing the friction. The other way to think about it is in. asserting friction. This is the classic one, but I want people to adapt this any which way.

So nighttime snacking, the classic advice is after your dinner and you're like, I'm done, the body doesn't eat any more fuel. I'm going to brush. I'm going to floss. Now there's friction if I go to eat. Why? Because flossing is effing annoying. Yeah. You have to do that like that sucks. It's so important though. So important. We're all doing it and we hate it. Yeah. So Not that it's about brushing and flossing. It's just about inserting enough friction. What's another one? I work with my clients all the time.

Turn your phone off if you're studying. Put it in a desk off all the way. Why, it is very annoying to power back up your phone to check a social post. Okay? So we're thinking about habit stacking. So inserting desired behavior before. after or in the middle of an already established sequence, so that stacking is one, or around friction, removing friction to create ease to get going, or inserting friction to make it a little

bit harder for you. And these are small ways actionable right away if what you're talking about is, I'm in a set pattern. Why? Your starting question is like, why do I keep doing the same things. And what I want to remind people is we want to move from a place of being disempowered to a place of agency. What can you do? So we're not throwing up our hands being like, there's nothing I can do. I'm doing everything. Instead to go using your agency, the self-efficacy, what's in your toolbox, that you can combine, try a little differently, play around with timing. So it's not, I can't. But what? What can I? It's a different stance.

That was a lot of me talking. I was so motivation. I'm sorry if everyone's exhausted. No, I, well, we got to wrap it up in a minute here. This is so good. I mean, we could get into, but you're going to be back. Again, this is a, this is awareness, right? And if you're walking away, feeling heavy and oh, my God, I have a million fucking things to do, you're already doing so much by just following the program. That routine is so, so, so important.

And this is just awareness and tips. So go back and listen to this again. Grab a pen, piece of paper, write it out, right? I think there's a couple of things going on. First of all, I wanted the desired behavior. We can all feel it. We can feel it. You can feel how you want your life to be.

You can feel how you want to feel in the morning getting up or not worrying about your weight or stressing about what you're eating. You can feel it. It's just connecting the dog to get. you to that place and that's where that change of behavior needs to happen. I think the problem that we have is that if it's not perfect, if I lay out, this is my change behavior and I don't, my day is not perfect, then it's just like, it's that all or nothing, not understanding like, okay, maybe I just got the morning bit, right? Maybe the afternoon went to shit and I didn't do what I,

the exercise or whatever I wanted to do in the evening, but the morning bit counts. But we just look at, well, I blew it, right? I already blown it. It's that need to do it perfectly. I think that messes us up. It's so punishing. And I mean, that's probably 50% of my learner clients.

Perfectionism is an adaptive response. It is we're terrified, right? Where it's a fear response. So I'm so nervous about failing. I'm so nervous about being embarrassed. I'm so nervous that I misunderstood. I'm so scared. Right. So the thing is like that perfectionistic stance isn't just coming alive here. Where else does it appear in your life? And what are the other ways that it's interfering, that it's holding you back? You know, when you talk about desire and you're like, I wake up and I want to feel, I mean, one of the interesting things is you can. Like what would happen if you lived from the place of it already being here, if you lived as if? So I am practicing

living with peace of mind. I'm I'm practicing living with more mobility. I'm practicing living with more tools for stress reduction and restoration in my toolbox. I'm living as if right away. I don't have to wait. I love that. That makes it seem so easy. I'm living as if I'm living as a moment. I'm living as if I'm not worrying about the next thing. I'm living as if I am taking care of myself making time for myself i'm living as if i'm grateful for the things that i have that seems so easy so easy not it's simple but not easy right like living from your future self you're living as if it's here because there isn't going to be a point of arrival there isn't going to be a threshold that you cross those pieces well like that perfectionistic tendency the inside dialogue

that doesn't go away, even if you lose 100 pounds. So you're eventually going to have to come to terms with angry football coach, with really mean aunt who is like, oh, you're so big-boned. Like, it's going to be there. Yeah. So can we practice living right now today from that future self? What are the decisions they would make? What are the choices they would make today around rest, around pendulation,

this idea of like sometimes I'm on, sometimes I'm rest and like recuperating. Sometimes I'm really like mobilized ready to go. Then I can put the work down and take care of myself. So can you live as if today? And you know, it's funny, not funny, but like, do you know when you talk about like this is offered in the spirit of awareness, like this program is around awareness, this conversation is about awareness. And I think I want to add like a subtitle or a sub theme. I think it's about love. I think that this is a gesture of love.

I think your program is a loving program. I think having all these experts on, like nobody gets paid, right? The conversations aren't orchestrated or contrived. They are alive and spontaneous, and they are offered out of love. Like love for your community, love for this, like the deepest hope

that maybe we can experience more well-being and health. this love in the form of like you don't have to wait for the romantic relationship or the entrepreneur you want to become. I actually think there is an undercurrent. I don't mean to be too woo about it, but that's what it feels like to me. It feels like a very, very loving offering, the Livy method. Yeah. Well, I always say it's a, I always say to myself and not out loud to people out of the woo-ness of it. It's like a lesson in self-love. It's keeping your energy directed at yourself, understanding where you're at, what you need in acquiring the skills and tools that you need to live the life that you already feel you are deserving of because you are.

Wow. Okay. Oh, I fucking love you. Honest to goodness. Like, did we not all need this today? Did we not all need this today? I mean, that was a great place to end. But I'm going to offer you final words of wisdom.

But before that, what have you got going on? You can follow Dina at AwakenLearning or go to our website, awakenlearning.ca, to check out all of her offerings. But do you have a workshop? What do you have going on? Thank you. You're so kind to ask. Thank you. So I love of learning and unlearning.

I was just on a conversation with a beautiful human yesterday, a professional. He has to take this exam. What was he doing? Rewriding all of his notes. Punishing himself for me like, I can't remember. And I'm like, stop what you're doing. can make it go and feel so much better. That's what my life is dedicated to. It can all go and feel so much better. So for the month of October, I'm offering a series called The Essentials. It's half

an hour of strategies, 15 minutes of personalized Q&A. It doesn't matter that it started last week. It's always accessible. I send the recordings. And so for less than meeting with a strategist one-on-one, come and I'll teach you everything to this Thursday is about prioritization. How do I know what to do first next, then what studying is going to be next week, then how to take tests, like multiple choice tests and not feel so shit about it. So whether you have a learner in like grade seven or grade 12 or second year college or university or you're professional being like I'm writing my CPA exam, like we work with all learners, all learning identities, all learning profiles, it's an all welcome place. So that's what we're doing. Thanks for asking. That's great.

before we go so our members are embarking on downsizing this week week four learning to embrace the change make change and work through all the fields final words of wisdom oh my goodness you can't ask a long-winded person like to be concise i just think that's such a shit move jean i love you but i do i do it to challenge you because i love to see what you come on there we go challenge so let's remember that this was um we're entering challenge by choice. So when the feelings arise, when the thoughts arise that make us want to quit, write Gina and her team a real nasty post or email, when we start thinking the words, I cannot possibly do this. All of that is the best.

And that, that aliveness is the invitation to go, what can I heal? What can I listen to? what can I try a little bit differently? What edge can I soften? What edge can I soften? And what skill can I build? What strategy can I try for this to go and feel differently? So many great tips today and so many ways that people can really individualize what's resonating with them.

And again, this isn't a walk away with a massive to-do list. This is just if you just at one point went, oh, oh, oh. right you know what you're saying is the truest thing it's the truest thing especially for a program like yours that offers so many different modalities you can listen you can write you can uh it's never about all and when we try to do all that's when that oh word comes in overwhelm and so what we're really trying to do is resonance resonance you know that like marie condo does it spark joy Yes. So what of, what of the words here? What of the insights on spill the tea? What in the journal? What on the app, not sparks joy necessarily, but feels like the inside of when a chord is strum, when you're like, that, that, that, that wording that Dr. Link has said, that, that's what, that's what I need. Oh, Gina, the, yes, the thing you just asked there. That's what I needed to hear. And then that's enough. That's the school food. That's enough. That's enough. That's it doesn't help me more than that this day or this week so when we can listen and lean into

the places of resonance that's what heals all that friction like what what draws you closer that's like do more of that yeah and that's enough you know i'm suggesting go back and listen but you don't have to go back and listen you had your moment you resonated with it that's enough to that's enough to thanks for everyone who don't have to go back at like no no i mean i'm going to listen to it 10 more times because you're fucking brilliant. But I love that. You don't have to go back and listen and do more work. You had your resonating moment.

That in itself is enough. That's brilliant. Thanks, everyone who joined us live. We see your comments and your questions. Thank you so much for everyone who's listening or watching after the fact. I know there was some good takeaways. Dr. Dean and Caroshafer already looking forward to our next conversation. As always, thank you so much.

My pleasure. Thanks, everyone. Bye, everyone. Thank you.