The Livy Method Podcast - Let's Talk Working Through The Messy Middle with Dr. Deena and Dr. Beverley - Fall 2024

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Gina chats with Learning Expert Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer, and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Beverley David about working through the messy middle of The Program.You can find the full video hosted at:https://www.facebook.com/groups/livymethodfall2024Topics covered:There's a middle to every journey - Let's explore this with Dr. Deena and Dr. Beverley today! Defining the language we use to describe the middle of our journey. Name it to tame it! Self-Talk: The words we use matter! Why it's hard to slow down - even though a pause is very helpful. Reflecting on the journey so far by feeling into it and getting perspective. You can show up even when you "don't feel like it" or "don't wanna." Do it anyway - you'll be glad you took a step forward and got started. Praising the Process - let go of a focus on the outcome and stay present with the process of what you are doing. Thought Trap: All or Nothing Thinking. Is there an alternative explanation? Compassion as good medicine for perfectionism. Adjusting expectations - finding the small, imperfect moments to do what's important now. An active pause: Capturing, Canceling, and Correcting our thoughts that are not working for us with Compassion. When weight loss seems trivial to whatever else is going on in our lives or in the world. Goal setting: There are many strategies to get us there from here. Tapping into our inner resources while being in service to others and the world. It's not failure, it's learning! Tips to stay in the game: Dr. Deena and Dr. Beverley share their wisdom and best tips! Where to find Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer and Dr. Beverley David: Dr. Deena Kara Shaffer:  Instagram: @awakenedlearning www.awakenedlearning.ca  Dr. Deena’s new book is available at:  https://pandamoniumpublishing.com/product/raising-well-learners-helping-parents-support-students-from-stress-to-success/  Dr. Beverly David: Instagram: @drdrbeverley www.yourpsychologycentre.ca  To learn more about the Livy Method, visit www.ginalivy.com. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Gina Livy and welcome to the Livy Method podcast. This is where you'll have access to all of the live streams from my 91 day weight loss program. With a combination of daily lives, guest expert interviews and member stories, there is something new almost every day. Miss the morning live? Want to re-listen to one of our amazing guest experts? Well, this is the place. This podcast is hosted on Acast, but it's available on all podcast platforms, including the one you're listening to right now, Spotify, Apple,

and Amazon Music. This is an opportunity to become curious. And then some things, how do we help you feel less overwhelmed so you can continue on your journey? Keep believing in yourself and keep trusting the process. Just be patient. Actually reaching your weight loss goals. I mean, actually reaching your weight loss goal is hard. It can be a long road. There's a lot of feels. I mean, frustrated, wanting to give up, giving up, and then deciding to get back at it. It can feel like a lot. So

today I have the perfect guest joining me. Dr. Dina Kara Schaefer is in the house. She is a learning strategist, also the author of Feel Good Learning and has her brand new book, Raising Well Learners, coming out today. Thank you. Also joining me today is clinical psychologist, Dr. Beverly David. Hello, ladies. Hi. Hi. It's very hard to leave the green room. It's so fun being with you both. We were just chatting behind the scenes. We need to hang out. We need to hang out personally, but you guys are actually going to be hanging out with me in the next couple of weeks.

You're going to be at the national women's show and you were going to be on stage. We're going to be sharing or spilling our secrets to sustainable weight loss with everybody there. And people have an opportunity to come and meet you, which is so fun. Bring on the squeezes, everyone. Let's go. I'll be squeezing you. I got an opportunity to meet Dr. Beverly last year at the Ork Living show.

And then we just hung out this last Saturday at the menopause show. I don't, Dina, we haven't met face to face. No, you keep promising like pajama cocktail party by the pool at your house. I'm waiting. Don't be. Where's my invitation? Okay. Busy.

Sorry. I get that it's messy middle. Congratulations on your wellness, national, like huge celebration. You had millions rooting for you. Thank you. You and your team are extraordinary. Thank you. Thank you.

That was super fun. I was thinking, so you had this book out. And I was thinking there must have been a middle part to writing your book. Like there must be, like writing, I'm currently writing your book. Like there must be like writing. I'm currently writing a book. I'm only on like chapter three. So I'm not at the middle part yet. But there must be a stage in everything that we do that is just like, why the fuck did I decide to do this?

Even though you want it so bad. And then you just you're so close, but so far away or you're just so far away. And we really want to reach our goals. And many people, when it comes to weight loss, have reached them before. They've actually achieved their goals. And then, you know, they've gained that weight back and they feel like they're starting all over. So that's what I want to pick your brains about today, if we can. Do we call it the messy mental? What do we call it? And why is change and growth so hard are we back to rock paper scissors dr beverly like

i'll get you you go first all right okay okay it's like a whole bunch of really kind polite people in a room like no no you it's okay you go yeah um I do want to say two things about this and also when you were talking about like why the f I like that wtf part I think is important because it's not so much like like what the fuck here but it's why why am I when you're in the slog it can feel like but wait why why this is so. And so why is change hard? For so many reasons. You're habit shifting, but you're also identity shifting. There's something that you are aggravating and recalibrating. And that is really difficult to like sense make around. And I think requires or invites a great deal of care. And so when you talk about messy middle,

one of the things that's meaningful for me as a learning strategist is what are we benefiting by calling it that? Like if that's helpful for folks and if that's motivating and mobilizing like, oh, messy middle means I can, you know, pull myself out. I can find my way through the mess. But if messy isn't helpful, if that's not something that feels like a lifeline that's carrying you through its fuel for a week, then what is better language that's meaningful for you? You don't have to use pre-given language. You could say, is it like a mysterious middle? Is it mischievous middle? Is it a motivating middle?

Like this is where I find my motivation. That could be more useful if you make it meaningful, the meaningful middle. That sometimes the wind is at our back. Sometimes we find ourselves utterly gripped and it's easy, but what are our tools when it isn't? And so for me, that's like, okay, great. It's a meaningful time of tool collecting and practicing and experimenting for when it feels somewhere between the very new and exciting and the celebratory end you should write a book i'm telling you yeah

number three i'm just saying i'm just saying after all this hard work big publisher came to me and said right now the proposal for number three i'm like well it took you a decade and on it on it i honestly your use of language Dina is very is very beautiful and it really does tap into to what we like in psychology is to to name something to name it to tame it to find the word that feels right for us and and there's lots of things that we do put words to, like a writer's block. How do we feel when we hit the writer's block? Or when we're running a marathon, what does it feel like to hit the wall, to plateau?

If we know what's going on, we stand a better chance of being able to think, okay, I know what this is now. A bit like transition, when we're about to maybe have that last bit before we meet our baby when we know we're nearly there I know what this is then somehow we can store energy push on and keep going and know that it's it's not just us it's lots of people feel this we're not alone um we know where we want to get to we still want to finish the marathon we still want to deliver the baby we still want to write the book we still want to finish this program and it's the process it's not just thinking that's the only thing i want this is where i want to get to and that's the only thing but the journey along the way every every step that we learn each week

Gina's helping people learn upon learn upon learn and we stack and I don't want people to to think that don't look don't forget to look behind to think wow where did I come from what have I already learned um what have I already noticed about myself Which will help if you're not seeing those things that you really want to remember, what are you seeing as well? But words are brilliant. I think I'm really glad you focused on finding how we perceive and how we speak to ourselves about these very human, inevitable experiences. So let's dive into that because, well, first of all, I love what you said, Dina, about aggravating and recalibrating, right? And this is where I find the tweaks that we're changing each week. So this week, we are doing feeding the metabolism, which people can have a very strong reaction. They have to

do even more work and it seems like inconvenient inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and it you know it's it's meant to it's meant to aggravate and recalibrate but both of you have mentioned words which i i truly believe the right things at the right time i i truly believe in making sure we're talking about like are you actually starving and deprived or actually just slightly uncomfortable and a little unsatisfied. The words that we use are really important, but let's talk about self-talk then. Let's talk about the things that we, well, not that just self-talk, but I guess also after that, let's get into the things we say to other people. Cause I think that's relevant for where we're at.

Let's talk about self-talk then, like how detrimental can that be to someone's journey if they're just in their head and they're frustrated and they're festering in their funk? Whenever we get to talk, I talk about slowing down because in order to find our self-talk and in order to find our judgments, because we judge others, we judge ourselves, we've got to be able to bring some presence to it, to be able to think, what am I thinking? Am I thinking, I can't do this. I suck. I'm not there. And you know, I add the powerful word yet. I'm not there yet. I might, you know, I don't know everything yet because we want to have that growth mindset for ourselves and for other people. And to remember why you're doing it.

And often before change comes chaos, something's telling you that you want something different. We've got to remember that because we could absolutely go back to doing what we were doing before. But then we would miss out on the possibility of stepping forward. So catch the internal critic. Notice when she or he or they are around. I think what are they saying? Are they and actually use it as a motivator? Because sometimes our competitors and sometimes these people that say we can't can ramp us up to think yes I can I am doing it I'm already on this journey I've already signed up I'm already successful I'm part of the group um and then and then watch out for the this should

have happened already because change takes time you know the we have been probably doing this for a very long time and the length the length of time you've been doing things that habit it takes a long time and a gentle step stepwise progression to start using that to change the rail to change the road to make a different choice so that our brain follows, our body follows. And then we start thinking, right, this is happening, you know, and habits thrive on success. The more we notice that we've done it, done another day, then we're more likely to keep on going. And even through the less successful days.

Do you have a trick for this though? Because I met so many people and talked to people at the, um, on the weekend and they're like, I'm struggling and I'm whatever. And Oh, that's fine. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, let's break this down. Like what's going on? What's what's happening in your life? Like, how are you feeling? If you could describe it and put a word to it, what I'm finding is that people aren't taking the time to do that. Do we do that when we're in bed? Do we do that sitting meditating? Like when do we actually, like, when do we take that time? Like, can you give us an example? Like, do we talk about it with a friend? Like, how do we do that? Because I find that's the problem is that people aren't

taking the time to do it. So what does that look like? I think Dr. Beverly's first words of slowing down, like to be even able to notice, that's the invitation. And so when is there a moment that's easeful and doesn't have very much friction in a day where you can slow down? I also, you know, I really want to normalize that it's difficult to slow down. None of us are in contexts that make it easy to slow down. We're all spinning. This time and place is spinning. And so it's quite counterculture to be like, just give me a minute. I'm going to feel my feelings yeah I'm going to notice that I'm in a body I'm going to notice that my body's giving me feedback so if that's hard for people for all kinds of reasons oh like you are not alone that that's really a shared experience

I don't like talking on behalf of anyone but I think that's a really shared experience. So I would just say like, to be able to tap in to, to Beverly's point, like, um, having that consistency is really helpful. We don't have to think so hard. It doesn't cost us so much. So it could be the first few moments of the day. Hey critic, what do you got on store for me today? because i'm turning your angry football coach voice into kind granny because it's not just the content of what we say to ourselves it's the tone what's the tone of voice you know all of this work around compassion and loving kindness turned inward like what would happen quite genuinely if you were like hands on face on the sides of your neck or on your heart be like oh I see you trying so hard like we got a lot going on in your family

and your business and your health and your body and your community and you're taking care of your house and your finance like list goes on so yeah no wonder it's hard to take a moment. No wonder it's hard to even notice how you're feeling, to even stop and go, how are you? But I do think the beauty of when you're talking about encountering people at the menopause show and saying, no, no, no, you don't have to go so fast. Tell me how you are. We could ask ourselves that. We don't have to just zip through the day. How are you? It doesn't have to take more than 30 seconds and the beauty of your program is it could be done in writing it could be done in the app in a note section it could be done in contemplation in the morning it doesn't have to have any kind

of artifact i don't think that there's a prescriptive thing but it is an invitation it is like a can we just pause for a moment and and invite to the question of how am I in all of this chaos and all of this transitional time? How am I doing? How am I feeling? How are things going? How is my context? Is it in support of what I'm doing? And that this building, the motivation that comes through the small daily wins those glimmers over time

that's what you want to notice right that we are in a a fair stretch of time and so to dr beverly's point like oh look at all the days i've racked up nothing about perfection just look how look how long i've been here i'm showing up to another live. I tracked my water another day. I did like 75% of what Gina bossed me to do. Like I'm doing all right. It's pretty good. Let's talk about, I don't know if it was either you, one of you said about collecting data. Because I think we get so, when we get on the scale in

the morning, we're just in the moment on the scale and then all the fields that are coming up with the scale and being triggered by the scale. And then we're just, that sets the tone for our day. And then we're just going about our day, not actually spending time, you know, being like, okay, what is this about? But we don't tend to look back and the fact that we're still here i keep saying every day like you've made it to week seven like that's amazing seven weeks you've been showing up and maybe it's not been perfect and maybe it's been messy for lack of a better word but you are still here so can we talk about what that means to reflect back on your journey, whether it's this program, the last 10 programs, whether it's your entire weight loss journey in

general, can you give us some tips for that? Because I'm always saying, take time, reflect on where you've been. And so you know where you are, so you know how to move forward. What the fuck does that mean? What does that mean? How do we we do that well we we didn't land here in a vacuum we we've accumulated life that's a really nice thing you know it's a nice thing to look back and think okay how many times have i been in the middle of something middle of a relationship a middle of a um i was speaking today this morning to somebody about what we were going to talk about. And I was like, what do you think? What do you think? And they're like, well, think of a new sports team, you know, that gets a new coach. And they're like, oh, that last year's

season was terrible. Now we're going to have the new coach. We're going to do this and this. So we start off really, oh, you know, we're going to do this. And then, you know, change takes time, you know, to make a team happen or whatever it is. And then we get into this middle and we're like, oh, and we don't want to give up on that team. You don't want to give up on that coach in the new process. So we want to be thinking, OK, how many times have we been in a place where maybe we're painting the house and we get fatigued in the middle or we forget our goal or we let go of that series that we're following you know we start strong and we're watching one every week and then we're like oh goodness how many Grey's Anatomies have I missed so looking back on anything

whether it's sporting or education or a relationship or family building it's important to see what did I do how did I know that I was like withdrawing a bit or stepping away um what did I feel like when I when I knew I had it you know just before when we were in the green room Jeannie was saying you have lots of messages to get back to and we suddenly think oh has it been too long you know there's that uncomfortable can I jump back in you know and we can we can we can just say hey my goodness I've been so busy thank you everyone and we can do it with ourselves here we can think okay I've noticed that my eagerness or my motivation has waned that's all all right. Because that's practice. That's a really lovely tool to think we can still join back in.

You know, this isn't like one and done. And if you didn't do that, you're out. Your name's not down. You're not coming in. No, this is you doing it for you. Everybody is here doing it for themselves. You're not doing it for Gina. You're not doing it for your partner or your person or your pet. You're not doing it for themselves you're not doing it for Gina you're not doing it for your partner

or your person or your pet you're not doing it for your colleagues I told my little boy that the other day at school I said the penny dropped at one point for me I remember being pulled aside and Mr Jones my chemistry teacher said you will fail you will fail if you keep doing what you're doing and it just mum said something. And I realized I'm doing this for me. If I want to become something, or if I want to move out of my town, whatever I want to do, if I want to open the door of possibility, I am in charge of that. I have to do it. And so ask yourselves, has that ever happened where you're like, this is up to me? It's up to me and I'm going to do it for me. And it takes time.

I wasn't suddenly smart the very next day. I apparently cleared my desk. I started being methodical. I started making boundaries for myself. Wasn't on the phone until after midnight. You only had one phone. You know, those were the days. But I decided I want something.

And that's what you've got to decide because anything that's worth having, it's, it's worth working for. So keep that in mind that we, that we can just do it anytime. If you think, oh, shoot, I have strayed, you know's okay come back and feel I find feel the energy of that right like because you can tell when you're just it's going backwards or you are stuck right and then if you start thinking about the things that you are doing you're like oh I can see it step back I can see the big picture here this maybe isn't as happening as fast as I want but I can see where it's going to get me. For example, I've had a lot going on. It's been a lot of work, but I can feel it when I say I want to be the number one weight loss company out there in the world. People have to know about our

program. That means we have to do marketing and then marketing. That means we have to do, we have to be coming up with ideas and writing this and doing that and supporting our members. And it's all that. But I said to Tony the other day, I can feel it. I can feel it getting me one step closer. Now I'm like, I don't know, like I'm still in Canada and I'm walking to Disneyland. I feel like that's my goal. I'm walking, but at least I feel it. I feel, I can feel the energy of it. And I don't think that you need to feel motivated every day to do it. You don't say to your team, you know, I know we've got a marketing meeting plan, but like, I'm just not, I'm not feeling motivated.

You can show up even if you're not feeling motivated yeah yes when I work with in my work with students and procrastination some beautiful um work and research and literature around procrastination that we don't have to be in the mood in this moment to start our work because the truth is we're not going to feel more like doing it tomorrow either and in fact the like little wins the little glimmers the little accomplishments beget more accomplishments that's what is the driver of motivation so we're motivated to start like yay shiny new but then what keeps that going is the little chipping away that builds up that collected data. And sometimes there's like a great metaphor back to your, the sports team analogy that, you know, if you're an athlete, you've got the big goal, you're really working hard at something. You don't go, you know, it's raining today. I'm just not feeling like training. That's not how that works so we don't have to have fair weather we're

not fair weather trainers here we can show up and do a week of whatever gina has designed whether we feel like it or not towards the goal that we have have outlined for ourselves because we will on some days feel like it and the more that we chip away the more some days feel like it. And the more that we chip away, the more we will feel like it. And there are other things than motivation we can turn to. So if you, for example, look at something that you do love to do, that is hard work, but because you love it, because it's easy, you keep chipping away and finding your way around hurdles, lean into those behaviors, lean into the self-talk over there. So a very good friend of mine, a psychologist who I collaborate with a lot, she'll say, look, I love to swim. I love to swim. That's my goal is to swim every day

of my life. She's in her mid-60s. Well, sometimes the pool's closed. Sometimes she has an injury. Sometimes the schedule gets all out of whack. So what does she do? Because she loves it, she finds workarounds. Okay, I'm going to go swim in another pool. I'm going to change my schedule around. I'll have lunch a little later so I can swim a little earlier. Oh, injury over here. I'm going to go get some physio and I'm going to swim with this arm or just work on my flutter kick. So we can borrow the strategies that we already internalize all the ways that we're resilient over here and bring them over to doing this program that we've articulated matters so much to us. We have them in us. We practice them all the time. We just need to see, identify, and bring them on over.

It is really important what Dina is saying there, because we call that outside in. We often are waiting for our inside to feel like, I want to do it. And how often does that happen? How often does my little boy think, yeah, I feel really motivated to put the bins out for my mum okay it's it's not it's often not gonna happen but that's when and we often we often assume things like oh I should I'm feeling tired I

should preserve energy I should reserve it I should protect it and it's the opposite it's when we then expend it when we do the thing anyway so that's the outside in we go for the walk even though we don't want to and gina you always encourage this because it doesn't matter if you just say okay two minutes walk i'm going to go for two minutes or a seven minute walk it inevitably builds energy we while we're going we start charging our battery and we're like actually i could go for another seven and and then dean is um you're asked to then bring in the data is what then reinforces that you'll do that again because you'll think remember last time i didn't feel like it but i

did it anyway and i felt so happy that i did you know or i felt better or more energized or i slept better or i ate better or, you know, I came back and I felt like putting something proper on for dinner instead of just going to something quick and quick and easy. So yeah, very important to know. Don't wait for the insight to tell you. Do the things anyway. And like Dina said, draw on things that help you do that you know how many of us will walk our dog whether we want to or not because we love our dogs we love our pets we do the things and often isn't it around the starting place that task initiation yes so okay oh like monday oh i didn't have a great weekend i really started the week but but oh, I might be Thursday. I'm like, I'm on a roll. I didn't

to start. So, you know, in working with students who are, you know, big time procrastinators, it'll be like, well, what is the shortest distance? How can we reduce that friction piece around starting? Cause once you get started, that essay is a lot easier. The reading flows a little bit. We're not talking about hours and hours. We're not talking necessarily about years and years. We're talking about how do we get started on this day? How do we get started on this meal? How do we get started on this walk? And the piece that Dr. Beverly, you always are reminding us of this yet piece is we can be careful what we're praising praising are we just praising ourselves for the bookends

of this program like good for starting and then like okay it only counts if you finish yeah we need to praise all of the labor and effort and care uh and like oh those uncomfortable new behaviors the things we're trying out that are counter to how we've been doing them all the way along. So watching to praise process instead of just the final product, how many pounds did you lose? Not really, not really the thing. Can you praise yourself for, I was very, very emotional. I had a loss. I had a life change. I had bad news. I had very low mood. I low energy. And here's what I did. That was a healthful, health promoting, nourishing, deeply caring, deeply compassionate choice instead this time. Praise the process. I love that. I was writing down words like, it's good once we get started,

but that I think with dieting, there's this need to do it perfectly, probably in life too, but this need to do it perfectly every Monday, or if I get back at it, I have to do all the things and I have to do it perfectly. Like I can't just go for a walk around the block. I got to go, I have to sign up and do a marathon and start that, you know, and then I'm thinking about the tweaks also that we introduce each week. So people who are new to the program are just finding out what to do yet. They have this expectation of doing perfectly. And then I saw Alicia here who said, I love this so much. I'm in the mind of, if I can't be a hundred percent, I am nothing. So how do we, I don't, I'm not sure why this is, I don't know if it's just a life thing that I'm picking up on and it's in and around dieting, but people do.

And I've had people who've been like, well, I haven't been perfect for, you know, the last week. So maybe I should just start again in January or I haven't been perfect. You know what I mean? Like where does that come from? I mean, I will probably need five hours to dig into that. But how do we get around that? We would call that a very, very powerful thought trap, you know, where it's all or nothing, black and white thinking. If I'm not this, then I'm nothing, you know, and we've really got to catch that out. We want to be curious and go, whoa, that was very strong and very sure and very, you know, my goodness. And then we want to think, okay, that would be a

wonderful time to sit with that and think, okay, is there, you know, is this an accurate conclusion? Am I actually nothing? Am I 100% nothing 100% of the time? Okay. Is there an alternative? Is there another way? Is there a fairer way to think about this? Like maybe, okay, I didn't do this and this today, but am I nothing? Because I think, wow, if we heard somebody else say that, you know what I'd say? Think of what you'd say to your friend or your person, partner, child, and take time. Start to think, is there an alternative explanation? Because you're never nothing. Because that's almost an easy one to catch.

Because it's so wrong. It's so 100% wrong. You you are always worthy you are always valuable regardless of what did or didn't happen today um but that's when we want to think okay how many times does that turn up where we equate something with our our worth okay because if you want to think of a tree and the roots the roots are our our our sets our real self our worthiness and yes we can go up the tree to the branches and the leaves and the leaves can fall off sometimes but it doesn't mean and that would be like decisions that we wish we might not have made if we could go back or you know fractures in in relationships or whatever that is but the root is that you are worthy you matter this is a journey and catch out those

fibs they're fibs what's a fib in Canada it's it's a it's a false it's a false bullying message it's that internal critic at its loudest. But why is it, what's it doing? What's the function of it? Who said that to you? Where have you learned this from? Is it going to motivate you? Did, you know, sometimes, sometimes that sort of voice for some people then does motivate them.

For others, it crushes them, and they stop. They give up. So decide how you want to respond, but say, why are you here? What are you telling me? What are you worried about? I've got it. We're okay. Just the other day, I was talking about something that we're doing,

and I said to Tony, it's either going to be a complete failure or a huge success. And he's like, wait, what about somewhere in between? Like, why does it have to be a complete failure or a huge success? I was like, shook. I was like, what? But isn't that lovely you You have someone to say that to because then that person often brings a bit of reason. They bring the wise mind. And that's really nice because when we're by ourselves, sometimes it's harder to find the wise mind.

We're in the emotional mind. So if we use the group, if we write into in the community, if we write into the facebook and somebody else goes yes i felt that too or i said that used to say that to myself we might be able to find somebody to help us find that more balanced reasonable thought like tony did for you so and imagine it we can write it you know sometimes i'll get somebody to draw out sort of a way in scales with the, it's absolutely going to be a disaster this end. It's absolutely going to be a success this end.

And it's probably the realistic middle bit or like somewhere along that continuum. But well done. Well, that's why we have the two of you here today. Dina. Compassion is a really good medicine for perfectionism. So, you know, I come from a world, like I was the long learning strategist on a campus for students with disabilities. And so I'm always going to be informed by people who have had particularly tough journeys. And I just, that kind of disability justice part is

loud in me. That's like perfection, perfection. Like where, where is that coming from to Dr. Beverly's point? And I love your tree, the tree metaphor struck me as well. Cause if you, if you go for a walk in the woods and you will see trees that have been struck by lightning and grow and have been um you know kind of being squeezed out but then flourish like branches that have been broken and new ones come so all of that tough stuff actually makes that tree so much stronger and more interesting um it's what lends itself to like robustness so the perfection piece that like i'm a hundred percent in or not i'm like oh what is the what's the energy and the vibe underneath that like what is the fear what is

the rage what is the thing that's lending itself to like well it's entirely black or white yeah um oh like um so much softening so much gentleness nothing is perfect not in nature not in our bodies not in any given moment in time when you walk really slow if you were to do a walking meditation, you would notice you're always a little off kilter. If you took one step on an inhale and placed another step on an exhale, you would always be a little wobbly. We're always a little wobbly somewhere. The stars don't align and we're like, well, I am wildly wealthy. Everyone is healthy. My body is in the best shape in my life. My house has no repairs that it needs it's a really

sunny day like what and all my kids are thriving everyone is doing so great it just doesn't happen so the work is like when well like what are the tools we turn to that aren't just like holding on so tight it's all or nothing when we're wobbly oh look i never get the sparkles i like are you howling with laughter so telling you it's like it's some mac zoom stream yard thing okay can i so here's a top secret totally this is your energy dina's got some for people who are listening dina's got some fireworks going off behind her that's right story it's a podcast in time right i did a hand move i said something you know you're always trying for the mic drop with me because because she always leans

back and she's like oh my god it's so yeah that's the best moment on earth so I did something there were sparkles on screen I it was totally unintentional but there was this one time very genuinely where I said not dissimilar to Gina I want to be you know number one I said I want to be the Brene Brown of education I was talking to somebody who's like really extraordinary global leadership speaker and at that exact moment all the confetti came up some hand gesture that the ai in the computer was like oh we're gonna turn this into some like graphics it was but it was the first time it had ever happened and we both just like jaws dropped wow universe moment yeah it's a message from the universe. It's a message. Okay, Brene. I'm available for your podcast.

But I do believe that they are messages from the universe. These are these glimmers that we look for. Like, you know, things are aligning for you. The universe is working for you. How do we, when you talked about like the sun shining and my kids, everything's wonderful and amazing. That's not reality. So how do we adjust our expectations? Like really? Can I please talk about to all of the parents of all the students, like here's how students study. It's so beautiful. I'm going to first arrange my schedule so that I only have three days, like in post-secondary, I'm going to have three days of classes. I'm going to have Monday off and Friday off. And those days, like the temperature is going to be right. I'm going to be perfectly hydrated. I'm not going to be hungry. The sound, whoa, it's quiet and I'm ready. My brain is all the way on and the studying that I'm going to get done never happens that way. It just doesn't happen that way. No much better approaches spread those courses out over the week. Be so happy when there's a two hour gap between them. I know it feels annoying and frustrating and it's the small windows when we get shit done it energizes it

activates the time so how do we do this we do this in small pockets that are imperfect and wobbly and maybe sometimes messy if that's the language like that's the secret we have to be honest because once we notice that's happening we we have to be able to think, right, can I tweak this? Can I be honest and know that on Friday when I set out myself to do all my notes, actually, I'm going to go and volunteer at school, read with the church, do anything but. So if that keeps happening, we've got to try and catch it and think, hmm, so I've got to try and do something else or I'd like to try to do something else. How can this work? Well, because people are like, I'm going to meal plan and then I'm going to sign up and run marathons and then I'm going to journal. Like it's just they and then that's where you got that all or nothing attitude that's just not sustainable.

Beverly, I know you have that all or nothing attitude that's just not sustainable um beverly i know you have that capture cancel correct technique can we can we talk about that for a second because i i hear some people talking about you said that to us a long time ago and it's really stuck with a lot of people which is helpful that draws on trying to catch those thoughts that that's that's the pause because if we notice something's happening where we think see I knew it you're set you know I knew this would be a flop or I you know my so-and-so said nothing would happen or another diet because people are misunderstanding what this this is when our families are going you're doing something else you know that we we might notice that we've thought it

or we've heard it in our internal voice. So we want to catch it. We want to go, oh, I heard the voice or I felt the feeling. It's about noticing. I felt disappointed in myself or I felt, oh. And then we want to be thinking, you know, if we've managed to catch it, we want to think now the cancel is almost like, hmm, could, am I right? Am I what this, that's the question. Am I a hundred percent right? 100% of the time, or could there be something else

going on here? Am I failing? No, I'm still turning up. Am I going to look at the bigger picture and actually see, okay, so some of the parameters that I wanted to move haven't. But has anything else moved? Do I know more about what to put in my body? Have I started drinking more water? Am I learning about the prioritizing my sleep? Like what else are those things? So we've now started to cancel that. We're like, hmm, that very firm thought perhaps wasn't right. And then we want to correct it by giving the alternative. What we would say to our child or our friend to say, hey, keep going. I see difference already. You're talking differently. You're standing straighter. Your complexion is clearing. You have so much excitement about being in part of the group. Okay, I've never seen you go down to Toronto before

and you just did it. Wow. Like something else might be happening that is a stepping stone, a domino. So that's it. Like it's catch it, have a look at it, consider it, and then see if you can correct it with the compassionate tone.

Compassionate focus therapy is bring the nice voice in. Okay. And even answer the critic nicely, like, why are you here? How has this served me before? You know, why do you turn up? Is it because I back off and it actually makes me in the short term feel like I've won? Because when we step away from discomfort in the short term, we think, good, that's enough. I was feeling terrible every time. Yeah, I knew it. That's exactly. But actually we've moved away from our goal. Well, people do this in weight loss, right? I see it all the time. Well,

it's not working for me. It's whatever. I'm just going to like your program sucks. It's, you know, whatever. And then you're okay. And the mom was like, and then what, then you're going to, you're going to get over that feeling. Then you're going to realize and remember why you signed up in the first place, even though it's hard to work through. So this is all a lot. This is all a lot. And now you imagine that life gets difficult on top of that. You start going through things physically, mentally, you have things beyond your control happening in your life so So many times, because someone's goal when it comes to weight spans a long timeframe. For some people, it can be a year, if not years or months of our lives, and things tend to still happen in our lives.

How do we keep working towards our goals when weight loss seems like so, I don't know, insignificant or just not even like worth spending time on when we have bigger things going on in our lives? I think this is such a good and ethical question because of how much fat shaming and fat phobia there is. And I really am so grateful you don't participate in that. So when I understand what you're doing, the weight loss piece feels almost as if it's an afterthought, like an inevitability, because really the first things are about the deepest and laid out transparently practices for taking care of yourself. And it's not patronizing. It's not condescending. It's not like you should know how to take care of yourself. In fact, it's laying bare the many different ways

of what that means. So what does it mean to have a good and consistent and nourishing sleep? And if that's hard, here's why and how do you do it and how do you repair it and why it's valuable. And you do that with each piece around movement, around mindset, around menopause and hormones. So I just, when it's like when I work with students in a way that A is inevitable by doing the other pieces that are tending to one's own needs and bringing that honesty that Dr. Beverly is talking about. Honesty to what we're saying to ourselves, honesty to the self-sabotage. So when we're talking about goals, the two things I like to think about are one, the softening around control. There is only so much that we're in control of. That's not meant to have people be passive or surrender,

but like we really try to control a lot. We think about time management and we think about goal setting. We like really in all of the busyness and the frenzy and that chaos, we really try to, if we just structure it just so. So like that deep breath, big pause, big compassion, big kindness, big gentleness, we cannot control everything. And part of sometimes where, why we get so excited about

any kind of system that another human lays out for us is it is a kind of illusion of control. Great. This is going to solve everything. Well, the cool thing about this program is it's not going to solve everything, but it is going to help you take care of yourself, even in times where there are many things out of your control, where there is caregiving and sickness and bereavement and loss, and the world is on fire. You can still keep taking care of yourself. You are not in the background. You are foregrounding your own body, your own life needs needs the thing around goal setting I just want to contribute to is that it isn't we don't want to throw out goal setting when we so an example my husband found so we live in Ontario and there's something called the Bruce Trail and it's a very very long hiking system and all of these trails and and sub trails side trails and we're big outdoor folks and he he

brought the book home and it was like oh we were going to go on a hike on Saturday anyways let's walk the whole Bruce Trail bit by bit for the next 10 years I don't know what's going to happen, but it was so fun. It was so fun. And it actually made it seem like, oh, we always want to go on a hike, but sometimes our kids are tired from dance or we've got marking to do or both lectures. So, but we could see the way that a goal helped serve as a kind of barometer, like as an organizing principle for something that we wanted, which is we love being inside and anything that can support us doing the thing that we love. Awesome. So just to say, if a goal setting system feels useful, please know that smart is one of them, but not the only one.

I have a little bit of a tussle with smart, you know, the specific, sure, the measurable, great, the actionable. But when we get to realistic, they're just it's born out of the business world. We can bring a little question mark. Does that harm anybody? Does it harm anybody? That's like realistic. That reminds me of when my teacher said, like, you have to kind of be realistic with where you're going to head. I'm like, I just don't want to touch that so if it feels shaming don't do it there are others there's packed purposeful actionable continuous trackable there's whoop so what would happen if we set out and named our obstacles the o in in whoop like if we actually named oh what's going to get in the way of me reaching my goal and if i encounter it what will i do so we can pre-think what's going to interrupt our movement towards our goals so sorry if that's a lot goal setting is helpful we can't control

everything and there are many many models if you want a little extra architecture or support in moving in the direction of your goals. No, I'm thinking if you take the emotion out of it in terms of weight loss, and I'd say, okay, I have my business. And while I've been running my business, people have died. You know, my, my, my kids have needed me. There have been hard times. I've been, I've been not feeling great. You know, there have been some pretty significant things happen, but I'm just keep showing up maybe not well, but I know where I'm going because I have that goal. And I think because maybe weight loss is a personal goal, people think that it has to be at the expense, whatever's going on in their life, especially if it's other people has to be at the expense of what they want in their lives,

right? Like their goal is not important compared to this happening or that happening, whatever. And I think you can do both, maybe not both really well, but you can handle the things in your life and still do the things that honor you wanting to reach your goals. Yeah. And you're, you're sorry, you speak, Dina. Well, it's just, just this tiny little thought around, we need resources. We need inner resourcing to reach our goals. We need inner resourcing to be able to keep showing up and be present for the humans in our lives. We need inner resourcing to care for people in their grief, to be alongside their journeys in this lifetime that are pretty difficult. And so I just, I remember so distinctly having a meeting with

somebody and it was like, I think we get it all wrong. It's like, we tend to ourselves when our cup is empty, but really it's around, we have to have our cup full enough and overflowing in order to be able to tend to others and the world and the causes and the humans who need us. And that's for me, what your program does. It helps us have our cup be full enough, if not overflowing. Otherwise we're running on empty all the time. But I want, Dr. Beverly, over to you. Yes, there goes my thought gone. No, I was just thinking that it is a life, it's a lifestyle approach. It's helping people know their anchors, that if they can return to these things, when life is happening, you've heard me say it before, a smooth sea never makes a skilled sailor. We're going to be navigating.

Some of these things will have never happened to us before. Gina, you've never lost the father of your children ever before in this way. Things are going to come and hit us in the nose. And then we've got to manage it and somehow somehow for the most part we do we we just keep going but it's really really hard and these resources that you're giving us are going to help us in the hard they're going to help us think okay am i i have not had a drink of water today. So we want to try and hopefully give this lifeline. You've all heard it.

If you've gone on the plane or if you've heard any psychologist speak, put your oxygen mask on first so you can help others. So even if you just remember a little bit and think, okay, I'm going to get some sleep tonight. I am going to ask somebody to come over and help with the baby or help with my mom or help with the whatever it is. If we just do a little bit of that, then you're already giving us so much. You're giving us these lifelines. And to notice, to be mindful, to think, when would I know when I'm running on empty?

Our car tells us, you know, the red light goes on and it says, hmm, you're running on empty. So how long do you go until you think I really, really have to stop? Like we want to plan. We want to think, what can I do here? And some things are less impactful. Some first things will be somebody's first halloween's about to happen somebody's first thanksgiving might have happened somebody's first christmas is going to come you know whether or not that's because it's involving food or whether it's because also we're

missing somebody for that first thing yeah yeah it gives us practice for the next time if you think okay that was tough I I lost track of things I neglected myself I unrailed a little bit so next time what could I do like how could I use the data to think you know I'm going to take a banana with me I'm going to take an extra water bottle with me um so it's not failures it's learning I want you to always learn how could I do that a little bit better for myself? Yeah, that's it. We had that all or nothing attitude. So when we fail, we think that's it, we're done, rather than that's a learning opportunity to set itself up for success moving forward.

Before we go, ladies, we have our active listeners and our members who are here seven weeks into the program. Um, some have been here before. Some are new words to a wisdom. I don't know if you call it that, uh, we've shared so much already today, but words of motivation, words of wisdom, words of, I don't know what to share, uh, with our members before we go. Watch your shoulds. Shoulding. And what Dina means is, you know, I should do this. I must do that. I have to do this.

You know, I'd like to. I should have. I get to. I want to. I'd love to. I'm going to try to. You know, it's really nice to be able to think that way. And what's your if and thens? If this, then that. If I've done that, then I failed. No, you haven't. If then you've learned something. You know, if this, what could I do next time um but keep going seven this is think of this as a journey don't think of this you know most people that that fail at things like not as in my version of fail first

attempt in learning but give give up maybe step away from things often expect things too quickly they're thinking it's a quick fix. They then stop believing in themselves because it's not happening fast enough. We don't do that for other things. We don't do it when we're correcting our teeth or we're going to university or we're building a house. We trust the process that the basement has to start first before the chimney is put on. So take time. Notice if you're stuck in the past. Notice if it's intruding on the here and now the past is the past yes it informs us but it doesn't mean it's going to happen again notice if you're frightened of the future what does it mean if you succeed is there something

that's saying don't succeed because you don't know how to do that you know how to do this okay so really start tapping into what you're thinking um notice if you're feeling sorry for yourself and change it allow yourself to empower yourself if you're feeling down or you want you're thinking oh why me think right i'm gonna do it i'm gonna imagine mr jones is telling me i'm gonna'm going to do it for me, for me and nobody but me. So stay in it. You are in this. You are.

What was your beautiful? What was the, you know, what did you say earlier on the patience with the process? It was something beautiful. But just stay in the game. Stay in the race. You know, learn how you feel about whether you're hitting the wall whether you're plateauing whether you've got writer's block stay in stay on keep yeah congratulations this is a lovely community you know if that if it feels good that's enough

it feels so good yeah it's just lovely i'm inspired I'm inspired okay Dina anything to add yeah um you're more tenacious than you think and this is challenge by choice so people have entered into this on purpose and they have brought on a challenge. And I think we're made for those moments much more than we sometimes think, especially when it gets difficult. So ever the learning strategist, what helps you be gritty? What helps you be ferocious when it's hard? And so is it around scheduling? Is it around having a buddy from the group? Is it around community? Is it around telling the people around you you i need you to nudge me this week because it's hard hard hard super hard i need extra care because uh this it's bringing up the feels for

me and i need a little extra patience and love and understanding so i would just say like you have that doggedness in you you've had it be tested you've practiced it in other spaces have it come alive for you right now I just you know realizing the magnitude of this conversation how people need it so badly and just it's not you know it's not fixating on what you're eating and when. I know I say that all the time, but this is a conversation that, you know, is it worth an investment of someone's time when they're trying to lose weight, living method or not? I suggest to everyone that is watching us live or listening out of the book market, save it, come back to it, listen to it at different moments in your life, especially when you are struggling or you're looking for that motivation.

Ladies, I am so appreciative of you. Honestly, I just am in love with our conversations. We are also grateful for you, but I also know you have your own things going on. So Dina, you have your new book out. I'm actually just about to hit purchase. It is through Pandemonium Publishing. Oh, we have the link right here. So we will add this for those of you who have access to the actually hard copy of the video in the group. We'll add the link to it. They can go, I'm assuming, to your website. They can head over to Instagram. They can find you and find the links to your book. Raising Well Learners, correct? Okay. Anything else you got going on? So congratulations on your new book. Anything else you have going on that we need to know about?

Yeah. So I am teaching students one-on-one, but I'm also teaching parents because parents are finding their kids pretty stressed out in the wee hours going, I don't know how to help you study for your midterm tomorrow. Oh, the homework is late already. So I, I am offering all kinds of low cost parent circles so that it's, you know, soon it's exam season and I want them to go better, but feel better for everyone involved. So you can head on over and jump into one of those groups. Thank you for always asking Gina. That's at awakenedlearning.ca. Tina, what you got going on? I mean, sorry, Beverly, what you got going on? I'm halfway through my current CBT cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia group and halfway through my carmiorex your anxious brain so there's three weeks left for for those wonderful people um but and i don't know actually that's the honesty i don't know when i'll release the next groups but if you go over to your psychology center.ca um or follow me on

instagram i've got 5 000 people now 5 000 gina i had like three or something so my little boy watches it so yeah go do that dr dr beverly it blows my mind um but yes if you do want to to jump on the waiting list for the next groups or be informed about when the when the things are happening head over there um but thank you yes like dina said, thanks for asking. It's lovely. I love it. And you will, you'll also have an opportunity to meet these lovely ladies

if you want to join us at the National Women's Show in November. I think the 8th, 9th and 10th, if I do believe. So you can also check that out. Ladies, I don't want to go. Thank you so much.

What an amazing conversation. Thank you for joining me. Thanks to everyone joining us live. Until next time.