The Mel Robbins Podcast - #1 Harvard Psychologist: Use Your Mind to Heal Your Body

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

What if everything you’ve been told about health, stress, and aging is wrong? Today, the legendary Dr. Ellen Langer – pioneering Harvard psychologist and global mindfulness legend, renowned for her 50+ years of groundbreaking research – joins Mel for the conversation of a lifetime. She says you can use your mind to heal your body, and she has 50 years of headline-making science to back it up. You’ll hear about people healing faster when the clock on the wall sped up.  Elderly men getting stronger and younger by pretending they traveled back in time. Hotel housekeepers losing weight simply by being told their work counted as exercise. And that’s just scratching the surface. Dr. Langer’s research shows that your beliefs and attention can boost your health, and today, she’s sharing exactly how you can apply this science into your daily life. You’re going to learn how to use your mind to heal your body and give yourself the gift of a healthier, happier life – from the inside out. You’ll also learn: -The mindset shifts that can boost immunity, ease pain, and speed up recovery -The famed research studies that will stop you in your tracks and make you rethink your health -How to reframe regret and stop getting stuck focusing on the past -What to do next time you or a loved one is facing a chronic illness or scary diagnosis Dr. Langer says it’s clear: You are more powerful than you think. Your beliefs shape your biology. This episode shows you how. For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, check out this one next: #1 Neurosurgeon: How to Manifest Anything You Want & Unlock the Unlimited Power of Your Mind. Click here to get tickets to Mel's live tour, Let Them Tour 2026.Connect with Mel:  Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel’s personal letter Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-freeDisclaimer Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm going to say something that might sound too good to be true, but I want you to stick with me. What if the way that you think could change your physical health and improve how you feel, how you deal with stress? What if a simple shift in your mindset would boost your energy, enhance recovery, charge your immune system, make you heal faster, even slow down the aging process. Well, Dr. Ellen Langer is here, and holy cow, she says, you better believe it can. She's the pioneering Harvard professor who says after 50 years of research, it is very clear. Your body follows what your mind believes.

And look, feel free to bring all the skepticism you want. Dr. Langer is unshakable. She's going to convince you that this is true because she has the science. your mind isn't just along for the ride it's driving the car and look this research this isn't just sitting around in some journal collecting dust it's having a profound effect on people around the world just like you you are so much more powerful than you know and today dr langer is going to teach you how to use your mind to heal your body and give yourself the gift of a happier healthy life from the inside out

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. It's always such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this episode with you, I just want to take a sec and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. Today, you're going to learn how to use your mind to heal your body based on 50 years of groundbreaking research done by a legendary professor at Harvard. Dr. Ellen Langer is one of the most respected psychology professors in the world. She earned her Ph.D. from Yale, and she was the first female professor ever tenured in the psychology department at Harvard. Dr. Langer is the author of 12 books, including her latest bestseller,

The Mindful Body, Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health. Dr. Langer's groundbreaking work has also earned her a Guggenheim Fellowship, three distinguished scientist awards, the Liberty Science Genius Award, and some of the highest honors in psychology. She'll tell you that mindfulness is medicine, and she's here today to teach you how to unlock the power of your thoughts to heal your body. The legend. Dr. Ellen Langer, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Thanks for having him. I am so thrilled you're here. I'm just, I can't wait to get into this. And I guess where I want to start is the person who is with us right now has made time. They have no time, but they've made time to be here with you, Dr. Langer, to learn from you. What might change about their life?

Once you understand what I mean by mindfulness and how easy it is, it has nothing to do with meditation, no matter what you're doing, whether you're doing a podcast, reading, eating, taking care of a child, playing tennis, you're doing it mindfully or mindlessly. And the consequences of being in one state of mind or the other are enormous. Everything changes. I had this slide when I used to give these lectures, as I still do, and I say on the slide, virtually all of our problems, whether personal, interpersonal, professional, global are the direct or indirect consequences of our mindlessness. Now, it's interesting because then I tell them, just among us and the other 10 million people I've said this to, I really mean all. So that's enormous, right? I'm saying all of our problems are a result of our mindlessness.

So if we're able to get people to understand how easy it is to change their mind, to become more mindful, whatever ails them should dissipate. So what made you want to study the mind-body connection in the first place? Let me tell you three stories. Okay. Okay. So I got married when I was obscenely young. Don't tell anybody.

And we go to Paris on our honeymoon. We're in this restaurant, and I order a mixed grill. On plate was pancreas. So I asked my then-husband, which of these is the pancreas? He was more sophisticated than my. It points to that. I eat everything. I'm a big eater.

Now comes a moment of truth. I still don't understand why I thought that being married meant I had to eat the pancreas. But somehow, I felt as a young person, a sophisticated woman of the world, because I was now married, should eat it. I start eating it and I literally get sick. He starts laughing. He said, why are you laughing? He said, because that's chicken. You ate the pancreas earlier. Okay, so I had made myself sick. Now, we go to my mother who had breast cancer and the cancer had metastasized to her pancreas. That's the end game. Okay, so the medical world was no longer treating her. She became crippled because they were going to exercise her limbs, which made sense,

if you assume she was going to die. And then magically, the cancer was totally gone. So somehow I made myself sick, she made herself well. And of course, during those times, I hadn't yet conceived of mind-body unity. But I had another story that was kind of fun. I think I tell it in the mindful body, but I haven't told them on a podcast before. So when I was about, I guess I was 14. I had a friend, and I lived in Westchester, and I had a friend who lived in the Bronx, and she was 15 or 16, so she was in charge because she was the older woman. And I would go visit her every Saturday. And every Saturday, for whatever reason, we'd go and have, she would have a hot fudge Sunday or a banana split. Now, I was always on a diet. So I never had it.

Nevertheless, while she was eating, I was eating it with her in my mind. And I swear, Where do you know, that when she was finished, I was full? These things together suggest in each case that here I'm thinking that I'm eating, but I'm not eating, and my body is feeling satisfied, and think I'm eating this pancreas and its chicken, which I love, and then I get sick, or my mother, however she did it, where the pancreatic cancer goes away. So do you believe your mom healed herself based on her thoughts? You know, it wasn't based on anything in the medical world could explain, so what else is left? So those are examples of things that happened before you could articulate this theory about mind-body unity.

So how do you articulate the theory now? Yes, your mind, people have no idea, I think, in general about what we're capable of. The power is enormous. And so the way I encapsulate this to make clear it's our physical. well-being, as well as our emotional, mental way of being, is to question what people mindlessly accept without knowing they're accepting it, which is mind-body dualism. Mind-body dualism? What does that mean? Exactly. Nobody knows what it means, but everybody acts. That's why you're here.

Exactly. Everybody acts as if this is true, you have a mind and you have a body, as if these are separate. All right. And so if they're separate, you run into the problem. of how do they speak to each other. Now, everybody knows that the mind is affecting the body in some way. Well, we know that because, like, if you're stressed out, if you're ruminating, if you get really negative, you know that it makes your body feel bad. Yeah, but, you know, you see somebody vomiting, and all of a sudden you feel like you're going to regurgitate,

and there's no reason except that person, you know, has stimulated this. So you're walking down the street in the fall, a leaf blows in your face, and all of a sudden you're startled, your blood pressure and pulse increase until you say, oh, it was just a leaf. So we have lots of experiences like this, but way back when the medical world believed that psychology was independent of health. And I'm sure doctors in the past still wanted you to be happy. But I think that they believed it was totally separate from the disease process. In the medical model, the belief was to get a disease, you have to have the introduction of an antigen. Now, people, and I think that I might have had some part in bringing it about, although people still get it wrong when they talk now about the mind-body connection.

That's better than we have two separate things. Now they connected. Well, the reason it's wrong, how are they connected? How do you get from this fuzzy thing called a thought to something material called a body? And you can't explain. I say, wait, these are just words. You know, this is going to sound silly, but you could have had mind, body, and elbows. And then we consider people in a different way.

Let's just put mind and body back together. You're one person. It's one thing. Now, think of it. If it's one thing, wherever you're putting one, mind and body, you're putting the other. What that means is that our minds have enormous control over our bodies. And once we recognize that, then we can harness some of our own power and cure many of the disorders or certainly help along many of the problems that afflict to many of us.

So when you use the word mindful, though, you're not talking about meditation. You've got a very different definition for what mindfulness is when you're talking about the power of your mindset and its ability to influence your body. Dr. Langer, what does mindfulness mean to you? Okay, yes, very important. So when people hear the word mindfulness, in spite of the fact that I've been doing this for over 50 years, people still think of meditation. Meditation is fine.

It's just different. To meditate, you take yourself out of the world and you sit still for 20 minutes twice a day. It's a practice. And what it's supposed to do, it's not mindfulness. It's supposed to lead you to become more mindful. Mindfulness, as I study, it is not a practice. It's just a way of being.

And it results from a deep, deep, but easy, appreciation of the power of uncertainty. You know, we're taught by our parents, by schools, everything you read, are giving us these absolutes, these rules, as if we know that this thing is true right now is going to be true forever. Everything is always changing. Everything looks different from different perspectives. So we can't know. Now, this came to mind to me years ago, but it's a really, for me, was a very important incident.

I met this horse event. I remember that I'm a straight-A student, obnoxiously so, right? And this man asked me, can I watch his horse for him because he wants to get his horse a hot dog? Wait a minute. Horses don't eat hot dogs. They eat carrots. They eat grains. They don't eat meat.

But I say yes because I say yes to virtually everything. He came back with the hot dog. the horse ate it. And that's when I realized that everything I thought I knew could be wrong. Now, a normal person would be scared about that. For me, I was thrilled because that opened up a world of possibilities. And then I thought about it. And people don't know a lot about science. But what's very important for people to understand is science only gives us probabilities. So if you were to do this experiment with horses, you'd have horses of this kind weighing this amount, on this particular day, who've been not eaten for this number of hours, given this amount

of grain mixed with this amount of meat, when you do all of that, most of them don't eat meat. It's a mouthful. So it's shortened. Horses don't eat meat. Correct. And that's the way we live our lives. And the hard part is that everything you mindlessly took in when you were younger is firmly there guiding your behavior when you're older.

And just think about it. Do you want your 30-year-old self what you're doing to be dictated by your 15-year-old self or your 30-year-old self to dictate what's coming when you're 40 and 50 and 60? And we're oblivious to all of this. So years of research, close to 50 years of research has shown me virtually all of us are mindless almost all the time. And when you're mindless, you're not aware that you're not there. Okay, so you're not there, but you don't know that you're not there. And so if you were to say, do horses eat meat, you'd say, no, horses don't eat meat.

It would just be a natural response, but it would be wrong, at least in some context. Dr. Langer, when you become more mindful, what benefits do you see in your life? Well, the first thing is that you're engaged, you're awake, you're no longer responding like a robot, so you are. And, you know, I wrote a book a while ago on becoming an artist and shared the journey. journey and as you start to paint or do some new activity, if you let yourself become totally engaged, it's exhilarating. And then, let's say the phone rings and all of a sudden your mood changes. And so you realize, wow, how you are more typically. People take as a baseline being mindless, when you're not feeling energetic, excited, or at least peaceful, you're not being mindful.

So to feel any of those things, when you're happy, a robot isn't happy, a robot isn't relaxed, a robot isn't serene. So anytime you're feeling not like a robot, you're experiencing the joys of being mindful. And again, it's so easy. All you need to do is be there and recognize that the world we've been brought up and has taught us how not to be there. Not be there, I think, in some ways to turn control of our lives over to other people. You know, for somebody that may be listening, somewhere around the world, and they've never even considered that what they're experiencing in terms of their day-to-day life is that sort of robot mindlessness that hasn't even entertained the thought that there's an entirely different way to experience your life starting today. When people, you know, if you're rushing someplace, just slow down. Not as a rule, just to see that everything is still going to work. You know, you still have the same eight hours at work or 24 hours to be alive in a day. And your mood, racing is not going to make it happen any better, any faster. Just to recognize you have options. Every time you call something by some name, call it by a different name. Take every taste that doesn't have. appeal to you and make it tasty for yourself. I don't know. It seems to me so sad that people

just go about their business, oblivious, oblivious to all of the joys that are right before them. This is a nice takeaway that people often seem to get lost, not realizing, life only consists of moments. That's all it is, moments. And so what am I going to do for the next 20 years now that the kids are out of the house, or what am I going to do now that I'm retired? Just take care of the moment. And then the next moment, and before you know it, you've had a life lived well. Wow. When we're mindless, we just think we know.

And so we're oblivious to all the ways things could be different from what we know. So if you're playing a sport and you're taught, this is the way you hold the tennis racket. For many people, they think that is the way. But who decided, you know, when I give lectures, sometimes I'll ask, is there a tall man in the audience? For reasons, I don't understand, Mel, there always is, a six-foot-five guy. I ask him to come to the stage. So here I am at 5-3, here he is at 6-5. We look ridiculous together, right?

I ask him to put his hand up. He puts his hand up. His hand is three inches longer than one. Then I just raised the question, should we do anything similar, anything the same way, anything physical, the same way? And I don't think so. Now is the important point, especially for your female listeners. If he created the rules for how to do this, the more different I am from him, the more important it is for me not to do it exactly that way, for me to change it ever so slightly so that

it more meets my own needs, physical being, and so on. And yet we just go through the world. This is the way you do it. This is the way. And, you know, so one of the titles for the book that you have there that I'm very excited about, the mindful body, you know, when you write a book, then you have to think, what should you call it? And one of the names for the book early on was, who says so? And that's what one of my pieces of advice to all of the adults listening, at some point, become your three-year-old self again. Who says so? Who decided this? Because it turns out that everything that is, everything, was at one point a decision. That means somebody said it should be like this. And as I'm saying now, the more different you are from that person,

the more important it is for you not to mindlessly fall in line. Just accept that everything is uncertain. So for the person who's just starting to have their mind open up, wait a minute, all these absolutes, I believe, I could think something different. Could you give a couple examples of what this might look like day to day in someone's life. You've already said, well, who said that? Who says? As an example to challenge kind of your own thinking? Well, when you're about to do anything new, you know, somebody says, this is how you do it. You have to recognize, well, that may be how you do it,

but not necessarily the best way for me to do it. When people say, virtually everything, you know, lots of people buy into the notion that as you get older, it all falls on. To me, it just gets better and better, you know, that when you think about it, Mel, so you're two years old, you scrape your knee and you're crying bloody murder. You're five or six, Johnny or Jane doesn't send you a Valentine's, you're going to be rejected for life. You're 13, you have a pimple. Life is over.

The belief, as you get older, it falls apart on believing that mindlessly often leads to it falling apart. You know, I'm at the age. I'm 78. and lots of my friends, and I talk about senior moments, which is cute that we have a name for it. You can't remember something. Part of the reason you can't remember is because you know so much. If you only know one thing, it's probably easy to remember it.

But at any rate, they see themselves forget, and then they worry, are they going to get dementia? And so that worrying helps facilitate more forgetting, because now you're not taking in the information. You're worried about whether you're going to be able to retain it. and so on, and then you withdraw a little from other people because you don't want to be seen this way, and just snowballs rather than recognize that when you were young, you probably weren't infrequently forgetful either. So I teach a health course at Harvard, and big lecture class, and I teach it on Tuesdays and Thursday mornings. And on Thursday, before I'm going to do the health lecture, I asked the students, what was the last thing I said on Tuesday? Nobody knows.

you know the thing is the difference is when you're 20 you don't care that you don't remember when you're 70 you know oh my goodness is this the beginning of the end could you ever some examples that you've seen in your research so let's take the word try okay well try sounds good right it's certainly better than giving up i'm going to try but you wouldn't try to eat an ice cream Kong. You just need it, right? So trying has built into it an expectation for failure. So we did a study, cute study where we have one group try whatever it is, many different tasks, another group that told to just do it, the doing group always outperforms it. And then somebody told me that's the Yoda study. I said, oh yes, okay, great. I don't have to be the first, you know, for any of these

things. It's always nice when other people have the same ideas. But the point of it is to recognize how often We underestimate ourselves, you know, that when you're trying, you know, how often we think we can't do it. And people have it all wrong. People think they want to be expert. Now, if being expert means you're 100% successful, consider this. You're a little kid. You're in the elevator. You're trying to press the button.

You can't reach it. So the adult with you picks you up, you press the button. And this keeps going. You get told them, even closer and closer to it. Great fun. Now, when was the last time, Mel, you walked in an elevator. and we're excited about pressing the button. Never, unless I'm going to bed after a long day of work, right?

The point is, we can either do things imperfectly mindfully or perfectly mindlessly. We don't want to be able to do, we think we want, you know, you're playing golf. You think you want to be able to get a hole in one every time you swing the club. And the first two games might be fun, but after that, there's no there's no there. you know if you want to win at i don't know tick-tac-toe play it against a four-year-old you know that we gravitate towards things that are going to be challenging and the problem is that i think we've confused what we call work and play and you know and i hear people so same thing there's a bad better but there's a better than better way in my view so we have work and we have life

whatever that means to people, and then somebody comes along and says, we should have work-life balance. You shouldn't be all work and no play. I said, no. What you want is to have work-life integration. You want it to be one thing. You want to be the same person you are at work and at play. Sometimes play, you've got to take it seriously. And when you work, you have to learn not to take yourself so seriously. But we've been taught there are things that are hard, that are unpleasant, and that we just have to get through it. And I disagree. I make everything a game.

Let me give you an example of this. It's going to be so silly. I don't know my colleagues will appreciate it. But a few of us, a couple of years ago, graduation, we found ourselves on the stage. I don't remember why. And then didn't realize we had to sit there through the whole graduation.

So that means Harvard is a big place. And every area was giving their rewards. And they said, oh, my God, how are we going to endure this? So the next award was PhDs were given in East Asian Studies. I said, there'll be four PhDs. My friend says there'll be six, there'll be two. And then they were, and we just kept, and it became fun. And it became easy to sit there.

But why is it important? Well, it's important because, well, for many reasons, once you think you know, you don't pay any attention. And things are constantly changing. And when you're mindless, you can't take advantage of all. all of the wonderful things around you, and you can't avoid the pitfalls because you're essentially not there.

To me, if you're going to be there for something to do it, you should show up for it, and that only then can you reap the rewards of being part of the activity. But, you know, in making it sound too confusing, you want to be a machine or do you want to be a person? And when you're happier person, when you're playing games, you know,

when you're enjoying yourself, if you're listening to me and there's something I've said that's interesting to you, at these times you're being mindful. When you're being mindful, the neurons are firing, you're engaged. Go walk outside. You've walked outside of your place every day for however long. Notice three new things.

Three isn't magic, six new things, two new things. And all of a sudden, how come I pass this every day? Why didn't I see that? Next time you're with your best friend, your spouse, notice three new things about them. And you just keep noticing new things about the things, you thought you knew. And at some point, you come to see, hey, you know, I didn't know it as well as I thought I did. And then your attention naturally goes to it. Dr. Langer, this is wild,

like in the best possible way, because you're flipping everything that we believe on its head. You know, I thought I knew about the body, but the idea that your mind can help you heal your body, that the way that you think can change how you recover, how you react to stress, even how you experience illness, that is so cool. So here's what I want to do. Let's take a quick pause and don't go anywhere because we got so much more jaw-dropping research from Dr. Langer when we return. Stay with us.

Welcome back at your friend Mel, and today you and I are learning from world-renowned psychologist, Professor Ellen Langer, who says you can heal your body with your mind. And when you do, you teach yourself how to feel better in your body, and you will see and experience the world differently. So Dr. Langer, you've done just remarkable landmark research on this. You mentioned 50 years of research. One of the most fascinating studies, at least for me, was involving elderly men. So the idea was if we can take the mind and put the mind

in a younger place, you know, and take our measurements from our bodies, will we get any effect? So what we did was we retrofitted a retreat to 20 years earlier, and we had elderly men live there as if they were the younger souls. Now, it's interesting because they're around 80, but that was when, not when 80 is now the new 60. Yes. They were really old. In fact, you know, when they would show up to see if they could be in the study, and, you know, I'm here and they're coming in and they walk in. I say, what am I doing this? Because I didn't know if they were going to be able to live through the day. So I set them up at this retreat where I'm in charge of everything in their lives. I mean, if I realized then what I was taking on, but I'm glad that I did it because the

results were very exciting. So basically, we have old men living in this place, not Hollywood, because I couldn't afford it. But as well as we could make it seem as if it was 20 years earlier. Got it. So all the books. So they're like living in a building. where it looks like, oh, wow, I've gone back in time. Yeah, yeah. And so they would be speaking about the Cuban Missile Crisis and other events of the past as if it was just happening.

All right? And they'd be watching television shows and movies from the past as if, you know, they had just been produced. All right. So as well as we could, we took them back in time. In a period, less than a week, what we found was their vision improved,

their hearing improved, their memory, their strength, and they look noticeably younger. All without any medical intervention. So it was very exciting. Now, but this is a famous study, Mel, and as I'm fond of saying, isn't it obnoxious for me to call my own study famous famous? No, because if you turn on, the Simpsons go to Havana, they talk about the study. So that study has been out there for a while now. So what does that tell you? Like, when you saw this and you're like, less than a week, I make somebody think and act and talk like they're younger.

Our thoughts are preventing all sorts of very positive behaviors. You know, what happens is, so you go to the doctor and you take the Snelling eye chart. Oh, it doesn't matter. You look at the eye chart. Oh, the E and the Fs, the Gs, and the Hs? Yes, okay. Now, a normal person just answers what letter is. For me, I say, wait a second.

this thing is rigged. As you go down, they're creating the expectation from me that soon I'm not going to be able to see. I said, what would happen if we reverse the eye chart where now the letters get larger and larger thereby changing my expectation to soon I'll be able to see? And when we do that, people can see what they couldn't see before. But just think about it.

You go and you're reading letters that have no meaning. Well, I'm sitting there looking at shapes. I'm like, is that an I or an H or a flip or a what? Is that a J or J? And it's in black and white. What does that have to do with the real world? You know, I don't know about you, but if I'm hungry, I can see that restaurant sign very far in the distance. Colors are different from black and white.

Things that are moving are different from things that are still. For me personally, I see best, I believe, probably around 10, 11 o'clock in the morning rather than 4 o'clock in the afternoon. But that's not what happens. You go to a doctor. You can't see for whatever reason. You're given a prescription. And then you put on glasses, which are now going to ensure that your eyes don't get better on their own. So we take the eye chart.

Now, most people believe when you get about two-thirds of the way down, now you're not going to be able to see. So that's a mindset, right? So what we did, we started the eye chart a third of the way down. So now two-thirds of, holy constant, the two-thirds part, but they're much smaller letters. And, again, people could see what they couldn't see. So you took away the big stuff. You started with the middle layer, and that tricked people into being like, oh, I can do the top layer. Exactly. So the whole point, as you're getting to it, is to recognize that who says you can't do it?

And you don't want to be able to do everything perfectly because then it's like playing tic-tac-to with a five-year-old. You're always going to win, but there's no there there. So based on, like, the years of work, because my mind is now, I feel like I have popcorn popping in my brain. as I'm grabbing onto these ideas and entertaining the possibility that I know nothing. Nobody knows anything, right? Nobody knows what's going to happen. And how that's exciting, even though it used to be terrifying, right? But the reason we have to understand that it's exciting is because we don't have to be afraid of, quote, negative consequences.

Because consequences in and of themselves are not good. They're not bad. They're just events. But when we frame them as awful, then we're going to be. experience them is awful. All you want is to constantly be inspired, excited, engaged in something. And when you're not sure, it's easy to become engaged. If you know what I was going to say next, why listen to me? You have a reading from your book, page 53 of the mindful body. I remember that. It's called Just Try Harder. Yeah. If we find that something is unpleasant to do,

we may try to overcome the feeling and do it anyway, given that the distaste, is in our head and not in the task, thinking differently about it is likely to be more successful. Right. So we have to get rid of the idea that there are good things and bad things, things I like, things I hate, people I like, people I hate, tastes that are good for us, bad for us. All of this is a function of our mindsets. So how do we, you did this incredible study that you ran at a hotel with housekeepers. Oh, yeah. So this is the second study in testing the mind-body unity idea. Okay. So here we take housekeepers who, first thing we did, was ask them, how much exercise do you get? Now, these are women cleaning hotel and motel rooms all day long. Oddly, they say they're not getting any

exercise. And that's because they think exercise is what you do after work. And after work, they're just too tired. Okay. So now we take these women, divide them into two groups. One group we're going to teach them that they work as exercise. They told, you know, working at the gym on this machine is like making a bed is like working on the machine. We teach them that everything they're doing is in fact exercise. A very simple study. We have two groups, one group that now knows their work is exercise, the other group that doesn't realize their work is exercise. We take host of measures before we start and at the end, the two groups are not eating any differently. One group isn't working any harder. They're basically the same, except one

group believes their work is exercise. As a result of that change in mind, they lost weight. There was a change in waist-to-hip ratio, body mass index, and their blood pressure came down. Of changing their minds. Why do you think that happens? Is there something about the lack of stress or judgment that shifts the chemical? There may be some explanation like that, but but I, you know, I believe that our minds and bodies are one, and if our mind is set to see what we're doing as something good for us, it'll generally be good for us. I think that makes sense, because if you see it as something bad for you, you're creating a stress response and resistance to it. And nothing itself is good or bad, so you can take anything.

This comes to mind, but it was just so ridiculous. But I remember doing something for somebody years ago and I thought I was being so generous and she was a very negative person and she thought it was grandiose which I imagine that I guess it was because most people wouldn't go to that length but so you can take anything even this gesture that was coming from kindness right and make it into something negative and you could take negative it's not it doesn't reside in the thing got it resides in the way we appreciate or show a lack of appreciation for the thing. Well, there's really interesting research about optimism and pessimism. Yeah, because when you're optimistic, you're more mindful. You know, when you're optimistic,

you interact with people, you're not afraid of people, you're expecting good things, so you're out there in the world being. When you're pessimistic, you cut yourself off more or less. You see everything is negative. You're bracing for the worst to happen instead of saying. And that's very important. You have these people who are called defensive pessimists. So they're always, you know, you know, prepare for the worst, but hope for the best. But hope is interesting. Talk to me about hope. Okay.

I love language. So hope sounds good, right? Hope is certainly better than being hopeless. Yes. But when I get up in the morning and I go into the kitchen, I don't hope there's going to be coffee. So again, hope also has built into it a negative expectation. I know that there's going to be, and if it turns out, there isn't.

All right, so what, I'll deal with it. But to believe in all these negative things is a burden. So the defensive pessimist, you see, when you recognize that things in and of themselves are neither positive or negative, when you're defensively pessimistic, you're seeing the negative, and that's going to have an effect on you. And those things could have just as easily been seen otherwise. Why is it important to believe that things turn out, even when you're in a moment in your life, you know what I mean, where things are really, because I'm sure that there

are people that are not, that look at the surface takeaways of your work, you're like, ah, toxic positivity, think positive thing, positive, thing, but that's not what you're saying. No, not at all. Some of the positivity follows from what I'm saying, but it's certainly not the major message. And the thing that came to mind, and I don't know if this is a good example, is the trend and the number of people that are in their 20s and 30s that I hear saying, well, based on climate change and based on this and based on that, I don't know if I'm going to have kids because I don't know if I want to, like there's, and so I can hear the rigidity in that absolute statement. Yeah, you can't know. You think you can know. People don't realize

that prediction is an illusion. We don't know. You know, so I, in an example, say, Michael Jordan and I are going to have a foul shooting contest. All right. So you'd put your money on Michael Jordan. But, now, if we're going to shoot 100 baskets, surely he'd win. We're going to shoot one basket. Is he going to win? He sometimes misses.

I sometimes make it. Also, what if he said to himself, let the old woman win? What is it going to cost him? There are so many ways of understanding how I could make that basket. You can't predict what's going to happen. And remember, as I said before, science only gives us probabilities. So when I have this medicine that I've given to hundreds of people to test the efficacy of the medicine, it's not the case that it works for every single person there.

You know, in the example of the basketball, what I find exciting about that example is that I won. Yes, anything could happen. Right. Anything could happen. Right. Oftentimes it doesn't, but anything could happen. And what I'm starting to really take away. And it doesn't matter.

You know, that's what people have to understand. You engage in it in order to hopefully bring about some event. But if you're doing it, mindfully, you're enjoying the journey anyway. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, based on your many years of work, are there other studies that you love that are less talked about, that you think are important for us to know about, that the results were exciting to you in the mind-body unity?

Well, in mind-body unity, the most recent that my graduate student, Peter and Uncle and I recently did. So we inflict a wound, not a big wound, because we're not sadists, and the higher-ups wouldn't let us do it anyway. We were. But we inflict a minor wound, and individually the person, the wounded person, is in front of a clock, and unbeknownst to them, the clock is rigged, and it's going twice as fast as real time, half as fast as real time, or real time. And the question we're asking is, does that wound heal based on clock time, perceived time, or real time? And the answer is perceived time. You know, I mean, just think of that. Well, hold on.

Let me just ask. So that means that the person who's watching the clock that is sped up, meaning their perception of time, is that time is passing quickly? Oh, two hours just went on. Yeah, that fell heal more quickly. And you're measuring the body response physically? Yeah. that physically your healing mechanism speeds up? Yeah, well, just think about it that when, you know, you ask a doctor,

say you break your arm, and you ask the doctor, how long is it going to take to heal? I don't know how long it takes, but let's make it out. Four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, I don't know. Which one do you want? Let's suppose take the average. Six, sounds horrible. Okay, we'll take five because I'm in charge now. Okay, no.

So it's going to, the doctor tells you it's going to take five weeks to heal. You can't possibly believe that everybody who's broken. their arm is going to take five weeks to heal. You know, if somebody is an Olympic athlete and somebody else is a couch potato, it doesn't feel like they're both going to, you know, so what is determining who heals more quickly? There's always some give, and what we do is we align ourselves with this absolute, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We did, you know, and we did so many of these mind-body studies, a study on diabetes.

we take people who have type 2 diabetes we give them a host of tests we're now going to have them sit in front of a computer and we're asking them to play computer games this will be clear in a moment and there's a clock next to the i'm big on clocks a clock next to the computer and we tell them we want you to change the game you're playing every 15 minutes or so so they have to look at that clock the clock is rigged so for a third of them the clock is going twice as fast as real time. For a third, they're going half as fast, and for a third, it's real time. Then we assess the blood sugar level. Blood sugar level follows perceived amount of time, not real time, whatever that is, because the mind and body are a single unit. Huh. That's amazing. Let me tell you a story

about something that happened recently that people are going to get crazed with this, but that's part of the reason I'm telling it. Okay, so my partner and I are leaving Mexico. She's, we had this giant armoor. She steps on the shelf of the giant armour, because she wants to see if there's anything that she put on top. Okay, to hide. The armor now forces her to the floor, knocks her head onto the concrete floor. Okay. She's trapped by this armoire that weighs twice what I weigh. If I hadn't been there, she would have bled to death. Okay. So, It's imperative. I have to lift this thing that weighs twice what I weigh.

And I'm able to lift it enough for her to get out from under. Now, when I tell this story that it's not yea me, that people say, oh, it's the adrenaline. It's cause me crazy. As if adrenaline has a mind of it. Oh, adrenaline, please come. You know, I need you now. It's all one thing. My adrenaline, my biceps, my fingers, everything.

it's all one thing working in a coordinated way to accomplish what need to be accomplished. When we get fooled into, in my view, mind-body dualism, then somehow it's my mind and my body. They're separate. I have to figure out how to organize them, and we give up a lot of control. Another, a very important example that's out there, not our research, is on the placebo. Just everybody accepts that a placebo is effective. I think it's our most effective medicine. So what's going on?

You take this nothing, you think it's something, and then it acts like something. In fact, the chambermaid study that we talked about is a nocebo, which most people don't understand. Nocebo is you do something, but you think it's nothing, and it wipes out the effect. So they're getting the exercise, but they don't realize that it's exercise, and so it doesn't have the effect. Okay, so we can bring it about, we can make it disappear, the control we have over our health and well-being is enormous. You add that to what I was saying before about everything that is was at one time a decision, which means it's mutable. Everything can be changed. If something doesn't work, change it. The super interesting thing that you said about the placebo

is that that is a concrete example. Of mind-body unity. Of mind-body unity. And simply believing that it's working physically made it work in study after study after study. But you know what happened is that placebos get a bad rap because if somebody gets better with a placebo, says, no, no, the pain was real, as if we have a mind and a body, and that body was really experiencing pain, and now all you've done is screwed around with my mind. It's one thing. You also can't sell the drug. Well, that's what I would say.

That's, in my view, the reason that placebos get a bad rap, like if you're a, if you're part of a pharmaceutical company, you have to do a trial with real medication and a placebo. And in order to bring this drug to market to make billions of dollars, that drug has to outperform the placebo. You're not rooting for the placebo. And nevertheless, even when it does outperform, the difference is often small. So many people getting helped just by this sugar pill. And then when you say to people, look, if it's not the pill that's making you better, what's making you better. We're making ourselves better. Right. I mean, you can't give yourself a sugar bill because, you know, it's fake. But what you're saying, Dr. Langer, if you want to apply this research to your

life, you're saying that you can use the mindfulness, self-awareness, and noticing that you're talking about, that it's been proven in studies. Simply notice your symptoms, ask yourself why you may feel better or worse, just doing that over the course of time. Based on the studies can decrease the symptoms that you feel and make you feel physically healthy, that's incredible. Do not discount the power of the mind-body unity and your own thoughts and beliefs. In fact, you have done remarkable work challenging the language that health care professionals use because it does matter based on the research. So how should you talk differently about your health? Can you share about some of that? Yeah. Well, one of the things that bothered me is when you,

people have cancer and then the cancer is gone and the medical world tells you it's in remission. Now, that was fine years ago, decades ago, before we knew that stress was crucial to one's physical health. And the reason for that is that when you're told it's in remission, you're happier than it's active. It's true, but it sounds like it's going to come back. Exactly. And so what do you, you're scared. So it started from me as most of my things in real life. I go to visit my friend, my friend Eva, she has a terrible case of cancer. I'd go see her and she had just come back from Mass General. I said, how are you? She said her cancer's in remission and then a bell went up. Wait a second. If I took the exact same test, presumably they tell me I don't have cancer. Why is it? You

have it in remission. And so then I spent a lot of time thinking about, again, things go from bad to better, but there's a better than better way that we keep overlooking. And I likened it to a cold. So you get a cold, and then the cold is gone. You don't say the cold is in remission. And then when you get the next cold, it's seen as a brand new cold. It's less scary because you beat all those that came before it. So you're in remission. If cancer comes back, in some ways, just as a cold, it'll be the same kind of cancer. But just as certain, If it comes back, it will be different. Everything is both same and different.

I'll see you tomorrow. I'm the same person. I'm also a different person. And so reasonably, you can see the cancer as cured or in remission. When we see it as cured, we go about living our lives. We become more mindful, open, happy, successful, enjoying ourselves, probably even better than we did before we had cancer because all of a sudden we realize life doesn't go on endlessly, so let me make the moments matter, and the moments can't matter if you're mindless. You know, Dr. Langer, what you're making crystal clear is this. What you say to

yourself matters. Thoughts aren't just some commentary. They act as instructions to your body, and your body listens to it and responds. I've never considered that, and I'm sure you haven't either. And I would imagine you have people just like I do in your life, they're like, oh my gosh, They need to hear this. They need to use this. So take a minute while you listen to our amazing sponsors to share this with somebody that you know and love, because everybody can benefit from Dr. Langer's research on the mind-body unity, and don't go anywhere. Because she has so much more to teach us about how to apply this in specific ways when we return to stay with us.

Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today's episode is all about the power of the mind and the body working together. Dr. Ellen Langer has spent 50 years researching how the thoughts you think, the words you speak, the beliefs you hold, change your physical health. So cool. So Dr. Langer, this is the next question that I had. Based on all this research on the mind-body unity, what would you recommend we say if you have been diagnosed with cancer, and then you just cure it. Don't use the word remission. Well, I think that if the medical world tells you you're in remission, you should remember what I'm saying now. But what would you say instead?

I would say you're cured. Great. If you cured from a cold doesn't mean you won't get another cold. Well, and I think it's important because the language matters, and you talked about stress, that if you are in, quote, remission, you are bracing for five years. It is in the back of your mind, which means you're activating the stress response, academically speaking.

Now, Mel, I believe, so everything I've said so far is based on hard research. I don't have the research for this particular statement. Nevertheless, I believe it as fully as one can and still be mindful. I agree with you. Which is, stress is our major killer. I was going to do this study years before COVID with people in China and it just didn't happen. where we take people who are diagnosed with cancer to hundreds of people, different kinds of cancer. And, you know, anybody who's just told they have cancer is not going to be a happy camper.

Everybody is going to be stressed and unhappy. So let's give them three weeks to adjust to it. And then after three weeks, we measure them once a month. How stressed are they? I believe that that degree of stress will predict the course of the disease over and above genetics, nutrition, and even treatment. Well, isn't that because stress impacts your immune system? Everything, and not just that everything on any level is impacting everything simultaneously. Okay, so now add that to what I said before is that events don't cause stress.

What causes stress are abuse of events. So we can control stress if stress is a major killer, then clearly, so let me give you a couple of one-liners for people who haven't, you know, I don't know if what I've just said is clear. or not, but next time you're stressed, ask yourself, is it a tragedy or an inconvenience? Because almost always, it's not a tragedy. You know, I spoiled the meal, I missed the appointment, I bang the car, so what? And so that you immediately breathe a sigh of relief. Now, next time you're stressed, do this, ask yourself what are, because stress requires two things. It requires a belief that something is going to happen, and when it happens, it's going to be awful.

Okay, so you're stressed. Give yourself three, four reasons why it won't even happen. Now, you're immediately less stressed because it was definitely going to happen, maybe it will, maybe it won't. Now the harder part. Let's assume it does happen. How is that actually an advantage? And once you do that, okay, so we did an early, early study with people about to undergo major

surgery. And so I taught them this procedure essentially. And then I said to them to see if they understood it. Okay, so let's say the doctor tells you the surgery has to be delayed so you have to spend another few days in the hospital. The people who think they got it but didn't would say, it's all right. I'll tolerate it. No, it's a good thing. So if I'm, you know, what are the advantage to my being in the hospital? Somebody else is controlling all that I'm eating. I won't get a million phone calls in the middle of the night. I have more time to myself. I can read. I can watch whatever, you know, movies I want to watch. It's delightful. Okay. So now you tell me I have to spend three more days in the hospital. That's great. More reading, more relaxing, more dieting,

self-imposed, you know, and so on. And so we would go through it again until they finally got it. And when they did, the surgeries went better. They needed fewer sedatives and pain relievers. Because they were relaxed and just in flow. And even with respect to chronic illnesses, which I have a lot of information on in the book, as you recall, where you're given a diagnosis of a chronic illness. And what that means to people is nothing I can do about. This is going to stay the same or get worse. And all it means, the word chronic means is the medical world doesn't have a solution yet.

It doesn't mean that there aren't solutions. So we did some research where I take people who have all sorts of chronic illnesses. And, you know, you recognize no symptoms stays the same. And nothing always moves in one direction. It's not like it's bad and worse and worse. You know, with the stock market. If the stock market is going up, it doesn't go up in a straight line, goes up, down a little up, down. And, you know, we draw a line through all those curves.

It's tending to go up. Same thing with any of our symptoms. Okay. But people hold it still and think it's just getting worse because you get whatever you're looking for. That's why I said before, don't be a pessimist because if you're looking for negative, you're going to find negative. If you're looking for positive, just look without the evaluation. At any rate. We did a lot of studies on what I call attention to symptom variability.

It's a mouthful. It just means being mindful. Being mindful is noticing change, attention to the changing of your symptoms. So we call people periodically throughout the day, throughout the week. Who have a chronic illness? Who have a chronic illness. Okay. And we simply ask them, how is the symptom now?

And is it better or worse than the last time I called? And why? And that's the crucial question. Okay, so what happens now? First, most of us when we have chronic illnesses, feel helpful. and awaiting, especially for what's the next thing the medical world is going to give. So now all of a sudden we're doing something for ourselves. That feels good.

Now when we're noticing the symptoms and we see it got a little better, that feels good because we thought it was only moving in one direction. Now, when we ask the question, why? Why did it feel better or even worse from the moment before? That engage us in a mindful search. And that mindfulness is good for our health. The neurons are firing. It's good for us, even if it doesn't tell us what the actual cause is of the symptom changing.

All right. And I believe that you're going to be more likely to find a solution if you're actually looking for one. People who are stressed think they're stressed all the time. Nobody is anything all the time. So I call you periodically, how stressed are you now? Give me a number. I call you later. How stressed are you now?

You're less stressed. Why? You pay some attention. You know, and then you find out, Mel, that you're maximally stressed when you're talking to Ellen Langer. The solution is simple. Don't talk to Ellen Langer. Or talk to me differently. But the point is everything. I feel more in control if I see that. Everything varies. So now we did this with people who have multiple sclerosis, chronic pain, arthritis, Parkinson's, stroke. I mean, biggies. And across the board. people are held by it. I'm so happy you're here, really. And I just got this very big insight because I do think that we often try to combat the negative with the positive. And what you're here to say is, no, no, no, no. It's not negative. It's not positive. It's nothing. It's just an event. And being more open to the possibility. And also being more accepting of your ability to ride the wave that comes instead of bracing and well to write it you want you know again you don't want to be living in a world of pressing the elevator button yes or you know getting a hole in one every time you swing

the golf club there's no there so it's the difficulty that makes the adventure so dr langer in your book the mindful body chapter four why decide you write there are probably few things as stressful as having to make a difficult decision and every time we're faced with these decisions, our bodies suffer. And this is one where I think all the experts, virtually all the experts, have it wrong. The thing to remember about a decision is that you can never test the different alternatives. And if you can't test the different alternatives, you can't know what the other alternatives might have been like. So randomly, flip a coin, have a rule that the first thing that comes to mind is the

choice you're going to make. Just make the decision, any decision, and then make it work for you. Look and see how it's to your advantage, how you can grow with it, enjoy it, and essentially make it work because outcomes, again, are not independent of the way we see them. So making it work means appreciating what it is rather than looking over your shoulder at some outcome that you didn't experience. You know, what people don't realize is regret. Regret is mindless. Regret suggests that if you only did this other thing, life would have been fine. And that other thing, even if you were mindless, could have been worse.

We don't know. But the important thing is that it is neither good, bad, or indifferent. It's nothing until we act on it. And so if we know why we did what we did, appreciate the good things that followed from what we did, there's no reason for regret. Essentially, Mel, what I'm telling you is that rather than waste your time being stressed over making the right decision, what we should be doing is simply make the decision right. Well, what I love about this, like, because people agonize over making the right decision. Should I have the surgery or not have a surgery?

Should I break up? Should I not? Yeah, that we drive ourselves crazy ways. Should I go back to school? Should I not go back to school? The important thing, Mel, is that all of that stress is eating at us, is destroying us slowly but sure. and making us ill. And what you're basically saying is, stop agadaising.

It doesn't matter. We can make whatever it is work. And this is an interesting thing. People actually know when you're there. And that's some way in which our mindfulness is contagious. You know, and when you're approaching somebody who's mindful, implicitly you know you're going to be, if not understood, at least appreciated, not disparaged.

so you open up more, your relationships are better, everything just gets better and it's so easy. So a big source of stress that I've noticed for people in my life seems to be about the past and just agonizing over past decisions, not being able to let things go. How do you use some of the mind-body unity research? Well, if you just think, okay, so stress about past decisions, so the first thing is to understand everything you do make sense or else you wouldn't do it. So why you chose the thing that you chose that now you're saying, oh, I shouldn't have chosen, was a good thing at the time. There was no way to know all of the things that subsequently were going to happen. It made sense or else you wouldn't have

done it. That's number one. Number two is to look at the advantages of that particular choice. You know, everything has advantages and people think they know this. I had submitted a proposal years ago to my publishers and essentially was saying that everything that's good is bad or whatever and they thought they understood it and I said no because I hadn't written the book yet do you ever experience regret do you ever experience disappointment do you ever procrastinate all of these things rely on not understanding what I'm actually saying that if you say everything is good and bad. What they mean is this thing maybe has six good things and four bad things, which means net net it's more good than bad. I'm saying each of those things is not good or bad,

can be understood as good or bad. And so life becomes what we make it. Shakespeare said this. Others have said it. There are songs and movies about it. People just need to embrace it. It's raining. It's just singing the rain. You know, who decided rain? You know, so, oh, my God, when I was a kid, I didn't want to go to school because my hair would curl. Now curls are in. Who knew?

But why did I have to accept? So what people don't understand that things either happen once in a while, so who cares? Or they happen all the time where you can adjust to it. So if my hair curled, all I had to realize was the people who see me every day know typically my hair isn't that curly. And if you see somebody just wants, who cares? Well, you know, one of the things that's interesting because you basically said there's two things you can do if you keep looking at the past and torturing yourself over it. One is to actually give yourself some grace and say, look, it made sense at the time to me. That's why I did it.

Exactly. And then again is to say, okay, this thing isn't all bad. How might it be good? Where if even this major fire turned out to be an advantage, people, this data don't come from my lab, but it's reliable, that people, that people, who just have, let's say, a heart attack and live through it, or when you're given a diagnosis for one of these dread diseases, for, I said to you before that people are sealed and unlive lives, sometimes that diagnosis breaks the seal. And all of a sudden, oh, my God, I'm not going to live forever. I'm not going to be bothered by the trivia that has typically consumed me.

Well, I can think about even, like, I have friends that were able to stay home with their kids. and now that the kids are gone, now they're torturing themselves for not going back to work while the kids got older. And yet, if you look at the advantage, which is you got that time. Right, and now you have a chance

to be who you want to be now, not to be who you thought you should be 20 years ago. Yes, and at the time, it was the right decision. But empty nest is the same experience, postpartum blues, empty nest. It's all the same, which is you become totally engaged, in something and then it's finished and now oh my god you feel lost and people don't realize transitions by their very nature are difficult transitions mean you're not where you were you're

not where you're going to be and so you allow yourself you know when you're with the kids you're not with all your friends and so all of a sudden there are all these things happening that you're not part of okay so the kids aren't there so now you have to make some effort invite some people over I guess the bottom-most line of all of it is that everything can be changed. People, I do a lot of researchers, you know, with older adults, and people are now crazed. I mean, my friends, you know, with everything, to live longer. And I think it's a mistake. I think rather than add more years to your life, what you want to do is add more life to your years,

and that will probably extend your life. and that's what you want to do in each of these sense, you know, if let's, I get people calling me and they say, they told me I had six months to live. I said, I can't tell you what to do. All I can tell you is if I thought I only had six months to do, first thing I'd have is a hot fledge Sunday. And then I do, you know, you want to not waste any of the moments. And the good thing is that all of those mindful activities are the neurons are firing, and it turns out that itself is good for your health. So when you're having fun, it's good for your health. And it feels good, obviously. Dr. Langer, this framing that whatever it is that someone else is doing, they're doing it

because it makes sense to them. And if it didn't make sense to them, they wouldn't be doing it. What I like about that framing is that it comes from a place of compassion. You're kind of assuming good intent. Like, that's why somebody's doing something that I think is idiotic. It makes sense to them. I love that you're using that to help us just be more compassionate. And if you can extend that to other people, you can also extend that to yourself. Like, instead of constantly obsessing over the things that you think were mistakes or the things that you wish you would have done differently in the past, if you extend that same frame to yourself, well, whatever I was doing in the past that I would change now, I did it back then because it made sense to me then. That's

why I did it. I mean, I love that. I can see why that would actually alleviate stress. It would help you to stop beating yourself up. I mean, that's super powerful. So what I'd say to somebody, you tell me you're stressed up the wazoo, I'd say, okay, what I want you to do, we'll talk about your stress in a minute. So I know you're overwhelmed, you're always stressed, is to just thread a needle. And so what happens is you'll thread that and I'll ask you, where you stress. And of course not because you were threading the needle. And so if we're not thinking about the stressor, it's not going to have the same effect.

I just want to unpack this because I think this is actually really important and it's a visual example that'll help. It helps me, so I'm assuming it's going to help you as you're listening or watching, really grasp this. In this example, when you're stressed out, like you're stressed about what's going on with your kids at school, you're stressed about AI taking over your job,

you're stressed about the headlines that you've read, Your mind and the premise of your work, mind-body unity, it is proven. They are, whether it's top-down, bottom-up, mind-body unity. They are one and the same. You are focusing your mind's activity on this thing outside of you, whether it's the worry about the kids or the headlines or AI or your bank account or whatever else. When you ask somebody to then thread a needle, you are now focusing your mind singularly on trying to get that little thread through that thing,

which means you're not focused on the other thing. Yeah. You have this very provocative idea that I would love to have you explain to us. It's on page 171. Yes, I remember it. You're amazing. The mindful body. You're right.

What does it mean to be confident but uncertain? Yes. Okay, so this is one of these things that I think is really important because people conflate. put together, confidence and certainty. And you have all of these people who act like they know and are very confident and are very certain, but certainty is mindless. If everything is changing,

everything looks different from different perspectives, you can't know. And so what you want to do, once you make this universal attribution for not, nobody knows, then I'm comfortable in my own skin with not knowing. And so, you know, I live my life, this way. I'm very confident. Not because I know, because I know nobody knows. When you know you can't

know, then be confident and you're not knowing your not knowingness, so to speak, allows everything to be new, everything to be exciting, everything to be experienced as if it's the first time. Well, I think there's a deeper layer underneath that that allows you to do it, which is you also trust in your ability to navigate what comes? Well, you, yes, okay, once you realize that outcomes good or bad are in your head, not in events, you don't have to worry. Right now when people thinking there are good things and bad, you have to kill people to get to the good things, run as fast as you can from the bad things. But once you recognize that your well-being, your sanity, your happiness, your peace of mind, don't depend on anything, but you're

eagerness to create the world you want, life becomes easy. I'm virtually never stressed. Whatever happens, it's fine. I'll find a way for that to be actually an advantage. How does the person who's watching or listening this start applying this? You know what I mean? Because I think when you hear the word mindful and we talk about things related to thoughts or it can feel like, okay, well, how do I start doing today? Okay, so it's unlikely that most people will fully accept that they don't know because we've been taught, you know, I mean, it's very hard. I'm periodically mindless. My response to it is different from most people.

I go, yes, I'm right. But, you know, you can't help it. The culture has taught us not to be there. And so we do to flee or not there. What we want to do then is two things. One is just the active noticing of new things. increase your novel experiences. You know, it's fun.

Summer is approaching or here right now. People go away and they look at all sorts of sites. I know in Europe, you look at the churches. We have churches here. No one ever looks at the architecture, you know, that you don't really need to go away because everything here is already brand new. That's actually a great suggestion. Because when you go away, you are in an entirely new place.

You're mindful, and you're looking for novelty. But everything at home is already not. So you could start this right now by simply whatever you're doing. Just notice and try to see something that you haven't seen before on this walk or in your kitchen or the spot on the dog. Exactly, exactly. And then the other thing that I think that we should do is that the next time you're stressed, remember some of the things we've talked about. So if somebody feels... Okay, so how to become mindful immediately.

Yeah, especially because especially if somebody's like completely overwhelmed in their life and it's easy to be right now. Well, no, if you're overwhelmed, first of all, just choose one of the things and ask yourself how you might do it differently and does it really matter if you don't do it? Because most of us, you know, a friend of mine is overwhelmed with things and she says, Ellen, help me. I just can't get through my list. And I said, all you need to do, make a shorter list. anybody could generate a list that you can't get through of things to do you know it's interesting i had mentioned procrastination before and a student made me aware of this that you know i've never procrastinated now am i bragging again no that anybody at any time can generate all the other

things they could be doing so right now i'm not procrastinating writing my next book i'm not procrastinating, taking my dog for a walk, returning the phone calls, I'm mindfully doing this. When you're fully engaged in doing what you're doing, you don't resent not doing the other things. If you respect yourself and you know you're doing what you're doing for some good reason or else you wouldn't do it, you don't cast aspersions at yourself. You don't suffer regrets. When you know why you're doing what you're doing, there's no reason to regret not doing something else. So procrastination is a form of mindlessness. Yes, yes.

It's not the not doing that activity. It's the believing there's no good reason that you're not doing that activity. Oh. All the shoulds we put on ourselves. I should be writing this homework assignment. I should be making the phone calls to put this project together. I should be preparing the next podcast. Who decided that you should be?

So what are a couple specific ways somebody could start to take this recent? Sure, sure. We can take virtually everything I said and boil it down to. One, no, you don't know. And as soon as you know, you don't know, then you sit up and pay attention. Two, every time we're judgmental, judging somebody else or ourselves, recognize we're being mindless and there's another way that that behavior can be viewed. Their behavior that we're putting them down for actually makes sense from their perspective or else they wouldn't do it. Number three, next time we're stressed, recognize that events don't cause the stress, ask yourself, how is this actually a good thing? Stress requires a prediction, predicting something's awful going to happen.

How do you know it's going to happen? How might it actually turn out into a good thing? Most important is that when we don't know we don't know, we sit up and we notice all we have to do to teach ourselves that we don't know is take another look at the things we think we do know and ask how it could be otherwise. How is this thing that seems awful? How might it actually be something good? How is this job that I hate might actually be one that is nurturing me in some ways, providing some nourishment? How might I do it differently? No matter what you're doing, just ask yourself how you might do it differently. And that if we remember that what is done by people is not handed down from the heavens as to how to do it. And so you don't need to do it the same. if you're cooking, you know, it's guesswork. Somebody decided for most things, not everything if you're making a souffle,

but for most things, and, you know, you need a cup of sugar, and you don't have a cup of sugar. Add some honey, molasses, make it savory rather than sweet. Recognize that the recipe is just somebody's idea of how to make this thing. Make it your own, and then you'll enjoy it more. And it doesn't always work out, and that's good, because if it always worked out exactly the way you anticipated, it'd be like a hole in one in every shot. There'd be no there there. Wow. So, Dr. Langer, you've taught us so much today,

if there was one thing you wanted the person to do that was the most important thing to take away, what would that be? Well, if they followed all of this, which is, it's hard to, you know, this has been 50 years of my thinking, 50 years of studying and research, I can't imagine that anybody who's listening to two hours of it read the book three times would get the full sense of it. But if that were possible, I'd say it's time to start to exploit the power of uncertainty. What are your parting words? My parting words are the same as my early words, which is when we live a life that's mindful,

we can't help but experience a personal renaissance, and health and well-being will follow. Beautiful. I agree. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for being here. And I also want to thank you.

Thank you for watching and listening all the way to the end and for being interested in learning how to leverage the power of your mind to be happier and healthier. I'm so excited to see what happens in your life when, You take everything that Dr. Langer taught us today, and you start applying it. And I also can't wait to see what happens in the people that you care about when you share this episode with them. And one more thing, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you in case nobody else does. Because as we learn, the words you use matter. I love you.

And I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And based on everything that you learned about how to be more mindful and how to live a more mindful life, If there is no doubt in my mind, you're not only going to create a better life. You're going to live one. All righty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. We have a drink for you.

I feel like we should have a Sunday. Yeah. Someone might need to take Sophia. Go, Seth. Oh, should you have to go the bathroom? I have no idea. I don't speak dog. You have this very provocative idea that I would love.

love to have you explain to us. It's on page 171. Yes, I remember it. You're amazing. Do you mind if we take off Sophie's collar? Oh, no, of course not. Okay, let's take her collar off. It's jingling a lot. I don't know if we can get heard of. Let me ask you, how much is one plus one? Two. That's what people think. But it's not, it's not something just dropped over there. The books were surprised by the answer. What do you mean it's not true? Nailed it! Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language.

You know what the lawyer's right and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice. of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good.

I'll see you in the next episode. Serious XM Podcasts.