The Mel Robbins Podcast - 5 Signs You’re Dealing With a Narcissist & How to Protect Yourself

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Narcissism is on the rise and you need to learn how to spot it in other people and have tools to protect yourself. We all know those people who constantly turn a conversation toward themselves, who only call you when they want something, and who have a way of making everything someone else’s fault. Well, guess what? Turns out narcissism goes far beyond that. I’m telling you right now, even if you THINK you know what a narcissist is, you need to listen. I thought I knew, yet I’m still reeling from all my breakthrough moments. Do you have a narcissist in your life? Maybe you grew up with one. Maybe you work with one. Maybe you married one. Maybe you don’t know what the hell a narcissist is! Pull up a seat at the table with me because class is IN session. Narcissism is a term that gets thrown around a lot these days, so how do you know if you’re *really* dealing with a narcissist? You have been blowing up my email and DMs about this topic, so Dr. Ramani Durvasula is here to answer your questions. She’s the world’s leading expert on narcissism and someone I’ve followed and admired for years. I love how she breaks down the topic of narcissism in a way that’s understandable, simple, and packed with tools you can apply the second you learn them. Listen in as she shines a light on the REAL definition of a narcissist and the 5 warning signs you need to know if you’re dealing with one. This topic is so juicy – and so surprising – that you’re going to be shocked by what you learn. One part in particular will change how you approach narcissists in your life from this day forward. That’s exactly what happened to me. I have somebody in my life, a very prominent somebody, who absolutely displays narcissistic tendencies, and I have spent years in therapy dealing with it. So I actually got out of my chair and hugged Dr. Ramani after everything she taught me and you in this amazing episode! If you get something out of this episode, or if you have a friend that has struggled with a narcissist in their life, please share this with them. And if you think a person is a narcissist, don't even bother sharing, because if there's one thing you're going to learn: you don't want to EVER call one out… That's just one of the many rules you're going to learn to follow in order to protect yourself from narcissistic behavior. This episode is jam-packed with teachable moments that will leave you seeing the narcissists in your life with 20-20 insight. You’ll learn how to not only deal with them but also end this episode with the tools to heal. And that, my friend, could be the takeaway that changes your life forever. Xo Mel For full show notes, visit www.melrobbins.com

Hey, it's Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Everyone, today we have a killer episode. What are we talking about? Only public enemy number one, narcissism. What I've done is I've brought on the world's leading expert on narcissism to talk about this topic with all of us. Because you know what? We have to hear about it. We got to understand it. And most importantly, we got to know how to protect ourselves from it. Because here's the truth. Narcissism, it's everywhere. And so here's what

I've done. I have asked a friend of mine, Dr. Romani, who happens to be the world's leading expert on the subject of narcissism. She is so fascinating to listen to because not only has she studied narcissism been an academia for over 20 years teaching about it, she's a best-selling author, she's the host of the podcast navigating narcissism. And I am so excited for you to learn everything that she is about to teach us today. So without further ado, welcome Dr. Romani. It's so good to see you and thank you. So what is narcissism? Narcissism is a person who has a lack of empathy,

and I'm gonna talk about, or a performative empathy, which I'm gonna get to in a minute. So, but they have inconsistent or low empathy. They're very entitled. They're arrogant. They're egocentric. They're chronically validation and admiration seeking. They need to be in control all the time.

They are poorly emotionally regulated, prone to show strong shows of rage. If they're frustrated or disappointed or aren't getting in their way. They're very easily provoked and very thin-skinned. If anyone gives some feedback or criticism, like, blah, blah, they just rage very quickly. They can't regulate themselves at those times. They're very pretentious. They tend to be very superficial.

I mean, the list goes, it's that kind of stuff. Narcissism, I find to be an absolutely fascinating topic. I believe that when you understand what it is and what it isn't, and when you have tools, all of a sudden, there is a light at the end of the tunnel that you're walking down. And you realize, you're not crazy. You're around somebody who's making you believe you are. Correct, that's beautifully put. And I agree somebody who's making you believe you are. Correct.

That's beautifully put. And I agree with you in a way what it is. I'm hoping to give people a guide to what they're dealing with. And not an inaccusatory, you're bad, I'm good way. But in more of a, this may not be good for me. So let's start at the beginning, because people are fascinated by the topic of narcissism. The word is now thrown around all the time. Okay, so I we even want to go to step zero from step one here to say narcissism is not a diagnosis. Okay, wait, what? It's not everyone's like, don't diagnose

people. I'm like, okay, I roll up to someone. I said, if I called you stubborn, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you they're like, no, if I told you you were agreeable, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you know, then why are you saying narcissism is a diagnosis when it's not? It is a personality style just like agreeable, this just like introversion. All of those are personality styles nobody's getting themselves all be in the bonnet when we say those other things. Wait a minute. I thought that this was like a diagnosis. See, already I'm learning stuff from you. So narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis, right? Okay, that is. Okay, that's a very specific three words specific. It's like, let me put it

this way. No one would get mad at you if you walked up and said, gosh, you're sad, you seem a little depressed. Don't diagnose me. We'd be okay with you saying, oh, you're sad, you seem a little depressed. Why? Depressed, actually, this is a kind of a clinical term, right? Depression, it's actually called

major depressive disorder, is a diagnosis. That's actually more on point. So let's start here. It is a personality style. It is a maladaptive style. It is an antagonistic style, but it's a style. No different than any other personality style. Now, the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity. And that's the piece we forget. These are not people actually who, at their most primal unconscious level, believe their hype.

They are, all of this stuff is to create an almost a suit of armor around that unprocessed insecurity. The narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame. And the shame is that at an unconscious level, people are gonna see, they ain't all that. So if anything even pokes them, that like even someone makes a joke at their expense,

they lash out to maintain dominance, because that's, that you also wanna know what motivates the narcissistic person, power, dominance, control, and frankly safety, because all those things keep them safe. If they're in control, if they're the boss, if they have all the money, then they feel, okay, all the power, whatever the fame,

whatever it looks like, then they're okay. That's narcissism. Okay, so just so I make sure that I'm tracking and everybody's tracking. So basically, we've collapsed two things when we talk about narcissism in society. There is narcissists and narcissism, which is a personality style that is maladaptive that we all might exhibit at some point. No

No, okay. Oh, no, no, no, no. I got a personality. You got a personality people listening and watching this They've got a personality and that's their personality. I know. I'm for example melt. I'm introverted Okay, everyone's like, no, you talk so much. I'm, oh heck no. There was a day the other day where I didn't speak to a single human being that I didn't leave my house. It was the best day of my week. And people, aren't you sad? And you're, we're going out.

I'm like, have fun. Don't call me. Like, we're good. So I am a naturally introverted person. I am never going to be the life of the party. I am never going to be the life of the party. I am never going to want to go to a party. I am not a joiner. And after I spend time with a large group of people,

I collapse into bed, okay? Yep, that's my personality. So this leads us to then what is this personality style? What is this? So there's two things, just so I'm tracking it, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about narcissism as a personality style? What is this? So there's two things, just so I'm tracking that we're gonna talk about. We're gonna talk about narcissism as a personality style. And then narcissistic personality disorder,

which is a diagnosis. It's a diagnosis, and you know what? I don't even think we should talk about it. Because the fact is only one to maybe 4% of the population has this personality disorder. The vast majority of cases are never diagnosed because they're never across the table from a licensed mental health professional who's actually the only person qualified to issue such diagnosis.

And I'm going to be honest with you, even the majority of people who have the disorder, it's never documented anywhere because the insurance company ain't going to pay for therapy for it because you can't do anything about it. Okay. So, setting aside narcissism as a clinical diagnosis, and let's go back to the personality style stuff, because I think that's fascinating. What do we need to know when we're dealing with somebody who is displaying these narcissistic traits?

The challenge in this space, the narcissism space, is so many people invest themselves and can I get this person to change? Can I be better? Can I do different to pull something different out of them? And it's to say, stop. That's not going to change, right? It's like trying to change the weather. There's nothing you can do to make Chicago warmer in February, is going to be cold,

bundle up, great city, but it's going to be cold. Okay, there was a wake up call right there. When you're done listening to this episode and you understand what narcissism is and you learn the signs to spot it, take away number one is you cannot change the weather in Chicago and you cannot do anything to change somebody with a narcissistic personality. Yeah. And let's push this a little bit further, okay? So this is, I'm gonna be sort of a provocateur here.

Personality's tough. There's different schools of thought and how much personality can change, all right? There's a little wiggle room. And I think the more, the greater a person's flexibility, psychological and personality, the healthier the person is. It's almost like your body.

The more flexible you are, likely the more you work it out, the less likely you're going to develop osteoporosis and break bones and all that flexibility is everything. But I would say it matters more psychologically than it even means physically, right? So I people stretch before I work out. Oh, that's interesting, because what I'm thinking about right now is there's a pretty famous TED talk

by I think it's Dr. Schwartz talking about personality. And what he basically says, and now I'm realizing it's the flexibility you're talking about. He, like you, said, I'm a professor, and I am very introverted. But when it matters to me, I can be flexible. I can stand in front of that classroom and I can profess. But the second that lecture is over, I collapse. I'm done. So the flexibility you're talking about is that an extrovert, like me, can shut up and be alone when it matters.

An introvert like you can step in front of the mic and invite people into your home when it matters. But that flexibility is very limited. It's tied to when it's important to you. But then you go back to your baseline. Is that what you're saying? Always personality. In fact, there is a theory. The idea of the rubber band theory of personality. And the idea of the rubber band is that you have a personality. The rubber band is just sitting there in its state. That's who we are. But we can stretch it. Okay. We can stretch

it a bit. But when back to baseline or even at times of stress, we go to our baseline personality, right? The challenge is that that person with the narcissistic personality not only has trouble stretching, it's not even the stretching as much as the changing. The challenge with the narcissistic personality is that it's a very egocentric self-serving style, right? It's designed to get them what they need, it's what they, what helps them feel safe, what helps them feel happy, with very little regard for anyone else. Other personality styles, agreeableness, in fact, agreeableness is considered the

counterweight to narcissism. So, narcissism is actually what's called, it's, it's a real personality style is disagreeableness or antagonism, right? So if narcissism's disagreeableness agreeableness is the other side of that. Agreeable people are, I love agreeable people. They're the best. Like, I just would like a, like a little commune full of them. We're never going to take over the world and we're not going to make a lot of money, but let me tell you, so fun. Empathic, warm, flexible, make accommodation for other people, follow the rules highly ethical.

That's agreeableness, opposite of narcissism, right? What's tricky about narcissism is there's different, I forgot to tell you something, they're very grandiose. So they live in a fantasy world. I'm going to have the perfect love story. Look at my perfect life. You can see how social media took this grandiosity and blew it up into something

that I've been studying narcissism since before. There was social media and I was like, what the holy hell just happened? What did it mean? I mean, what happened was, narcissism's always been around. As long as there were human beings, I'm guessing like a till of the hunt was probably

a narcissist, Napoleon might have been a narcissist. I think if you go all the way back in the history books, in fact, when I helped my daughter with all of her ancient and even modern European history, I'm like, narcissist, narcissist, narcissist. I said, you see how much they shaped history to this day. So I think that what it's always been there. Yeah. Okay. The difference was back in the day, if you needed validation, okay, you and I are both old

enough to know about rotary dial phones and no answering machines and no social media, okay. So there was a time if you needed validation, you actually have to clean up and leave the house. True. Right? Like you actually have to get up and go, you couldn't become famous, right? Even if you wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper on some kind of rant, the editor was going to get a hundred of these or they'd get a hundred of these and pick one. So there was no public place to do this. So where narcissists really did their dirty work was, they would harm the people around them.

Very dominant, probably cruel to spouses, cruel to children. I think if you look at family lines of this intergenerational, they'll say, like, yeah, really brutal father, really brutal grandfather, really brutal great grandfather. And it often links to things like hierarchies, patriarchies, things that are all very, very hierarchical. One person gets the final say, not because they're a good person, but just because. So these systems have always been there.

And so what happened though, is one day, I remember it so well, I remember the house I was living in, somebody said to me, have you seen this thing called Facebook? And they're like, you need to go check this out. They said, created an account. So I did. And I was like, oh, this is going to be a disaster.

You know, it must have been like being like a, like a pulmonologist or cardiologist when cigarettes were out. Like, what? It's happening. And so at that moment, I thought the game's about to change. I had no idea what was going to come with the Instagram and the influencing and all. I had no idea what was coming there. But I thought, wow, nobody needs to leave the house. They can put forth a false version of themselves, the grandiose version, the fantasy version, and sit at home and let the validation come in. My concern was that this was going to make

their narcissistic symptomatology worse overall. And I think that has been born out. Can I ask you a question? Because this is one of the things that really changed my life. When you taught me that narcissists are not born, they're made. What is it, can you explain that to everybody? Because this is a game changer.

Yeah, understand this. So nobody's born this way, okay? I mean, I get, I get, I get, even in a family structure where you have a grandfather, a father, like these dominant or mother person, you are not born a narcissist. Everyone listening to this, and we'll say there are four kids in our family,

and I have a brother who's narcissistic, and the rest of us are really cool, and nice and kind to each other. So I think of how many people out there who have siblings, like I'm, my sister's really kind, and my other sister's really, really narcissistic. So if that was the case, it should appear in all siblings, or at least

at least 50% of them. It's not exactly made. So here's the most likely explanation. Is that there may very well be, this has not been isolated yet, but there may very well be a biological vulnerability to it. And that would be probably delivered through something called a child's baby's temperament. Temperament is the genetic part of our personality. Anyone who spent time around a baby will know some kids sooth really easily. Some kids are just, they're easy. They're easy, smiley, friendly babies.

They're really sweet kids, right? Right. And as they grow up, they stay sweet. And like teachers like them and they have friends and they're just sweet, sweet, sweet. Then there are those kids who will not stop crying. And they're demanding. And as they grow up, look at me, look, sweet. Then there are those kids who will not stop crying and they're demanding. And as they grow up, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. And they're always doing things for attention and they're disruptive and they won't sit still. And as

they enter preschool and school, the teachers always sit down and stop that. So they're already starting to get kind of bad vibes from their constant attention-seeking behavior. It's probably an interaction effect the kid may not be getting enough attention or attachment needs met. So you have this biological vulnerability. In the hands of a skilled, attached, warm, present, loving, consistent parent, that might be manageable. And that sort of energy might get turned into athletic interest or creative interest, and that child won't feel pathologized for their style. But I hate to say it probably for the majority of kids

with that style. It's a lot of stop, that sit down. Can't you be more like your sister? You're going in the corner. You're making a mess. You're going to the principal. So that kid is getting invalidated every time they turn around, that invalidation plus the temperament, plus the possibility that they don't have an environment where there's a possibility for secure attachment, plus

the possibility of trauma chaos and neglect. That's one pathway to develop a narcissist. So if I can just make sure I'm understanding what you're basically saying is, even regardless of temperament, if you're not getting your emotional needs met, if you do not feel safe and secure in your house, if you have a parent that abandons you, a parent that's abusive, you know, somebody with mental illness and addiction, somebody who's unpredictable, that you as a child don't feel safe or you don't feel seen, all those emotional needs and that's what leads to narcissism. But not always. In fact, I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time. Many, many, many, many people grew up in situations like that of trauma, of neglect, of abuse, of chaos. And they do not go on to become narcissistic. They typically go on to become rather anxious adults

with poor self-apraisal who don't know their value and worth, a whole nother different burden to carry. But the narcissist in me, oh no, no, I was actually talking about myself, my dear. So, yeah, that was all me. You know, so it's a, but at the end of it, what we see is that the problem is that these paths aren't linear. I always say narcissism is the story, the development of it, what we see is that the problem is that these paths aren't linear. I always say narcissism is the development of narcissism. As a story, we can tell backwards, but never forwards. So, I'm thinking I have some clients who have been through horrific early childhood trauma horrific.

Physical abuse, sexual abuse, violence, a group in chaos. To tell you that these are some of the most empathic, loving human beings I've ever met would be actually missing the mark. They're just solid people. If anything, they don't understand their value. Their harm is very internalized. It's like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing enough, but there's so much goodness, so much empathy. They've gone on to become amazing parents, all of that, right that. So that early chaos does not damn someone by a long shot.

But it does set up what are called adverse childhood experiences. And definitely if we view this from a probability standpoint, there's more negative outcomes that could come, either internalized, disliking oneself or externalized, and that's more of what narcissism could potentially look like. Now, there's a secondary path to narcissism. And that secondary path is actually one we probably should be monitoring in modern times quite a bit, which is the over-indulged child.

The child who gets whatever they want, the money is spent on them lavishly, you're so gray, you're so smart, there was a study done out of Amsterdam. Now, it'll be interesting to see what happens when these kids turn into adults. He was studying children. But what he found, this guy I think is an aim as Eddie Brumelman's at the University of Amsterdam and what he found was that children who were told

they are more special than other children. Those were the kids that were already showing entitlement and other sort of soft signs of narcissism. So it's not that you're telling your child they're special. It's that you're more special than somebody else. Oh. That was sort of, that was the penny drop moment, which is very much what you could imagine

a more narcissistic parent doing. My child is more special than the other children. My child deserves special treatment. My child should play the whole game. My child should get this. My child should get that. But you're looking at kids where they're not taught the most critical things. What are the three most important things that you want to foster in a child? Healthy secure attachment, a capacity to self-sue and regulate, especially in the face of disappointment, and empathy. All right, well, let's dig into each one of those because they're intrinsically tied to understanding narcissism. Secure attachment happens when a child has at least one primary caregiver that is consistently available, that the child feels that they can call that

caregiver when they need them, that secure attachment develops over the early years. I'm more talking birth to like two or three. This is something where you got to get, you got to lock this in early, right? That securely attached child in those early experiments done by John Bolby and Mary Ainsworth sort of seminal work in the field. What they found was that the child who was securely attached, when mom would leave them in a strange situation, that would be preschool or babysitter or something like that, the child would whimper a little like, where are you going?

But then they would actually calm down very quickly with the soothing of a caregiver. And then when the parent came back to pick them up, the child would be thrilled to see them. In children who are more anxiously or avoidantly or insecurely attached, there would be almost difficult to soothe when the parent left, and when the parent came back, the child would actually either go into absolutely like another meltdown, almost like, how could you leave me? Or they turned their head away from the parent.

You see, whereas that securely attached child would actually be happy to see the parent when they return, see? So now that secure attachment is number one, and that's created by consistency and availability in that early environment. You need one parent doing that, and one primary caregiver, to be honest,

is that anyone who ever that child identifies as such. Number two is that children need to, they need to learn how to suit themselves and they need to learn how to be disappointed. Okay, and we're not letting them do that. Like sometimes you fail, sometimes you don't get the teacher you want. Sometimes they run out of chocolate ice cream by the time you get up and you know what, sometimes you lose at shoots and ladders. I remember like saying, I'm going to win this game and you know what I'm going to let them win, am I going to let them win? So I'm getting up to the top of the little shoots and ladders and I'm going to win and

I'm saying, wow, that felt good. And when my daughter said, that's not fair. I said, oh, oh, oh, oh, I won this game. Let's be present with me winning. You want to play again? Sure, we can do that again. But you need to learn to be present that not every outcome is the way you're going to want it to be.

That's number two. Number three is empathy. You've got to foster empathy in children and foster compassion. That can be through books. They read stories, they experience sure, but above all else in the home. How do they learn that? It's modeled for them. They see parents empathizing or caregivers empathizing with each other. They see extended family empathizing with each other. They see extended family empathizing with each other. They see empathy in the classroom. They see empathy in the world. You can imagine a child who sees none of that,

or the parent is acting in a very entitled manner like, oh, let's just go to the head of the line. We're more important than these people. Oh, gosh, you know, we're not sitting in that line. All these things, parents do that. They think are innocuous in an airport, at a soccer game, at a theme park, your kids learning.

And their brain is just an explosion of neurons and dead rights. And that's getting filed away under, we're special. You know, the reason why this is so interesting to me is because I think one of the challenges when you have either a narcissistic parent or sibling or boss or somebody that you're in a relationship with is that you think that somehow everything is your fault. And when I learn from you that narcissists are made in childhood,

that narcissists are made in childhood. It just opened up this door for me to go, oh, wow, so they didn't like choose to be this way, they're not consciously doing this. What it is, it's a regulation issue, right? So it's the sense that a narcissistic person never quite feels safe in the world, right? Because they never feel safe, they're always on the offense and the defense simultaneously, right? I'm going to win, I'm going to dominate, me, me, me, and you're looking at me, you're looking at me and rrr, and then rage, rage, rage. So that constant offense defense that they play makes them very antagonistic unless things are going exactly the way they want. And when narcissistic people are tricky,

is that if they feel safe, I gotta tell ya, it might be one of the most engaging and trans-ing exhilarating, charismatic, charming experiences you've ever had. They've hung the moon, they've hung the sun, only for you, it is, I mean, it's dopamine. Okay. It's literally a jackal and hide experience. It is, but then at a time they don't feel safe or they're bored, it's over. And people will spend their lives trying to get back to that hung the

sun, hung the moon kind of a moment. And they said, they really don't have any more use for you anymore. Then that's it. You think I'll do that again. This is so fascinating. I have to stop you right there for quick word from our sponsors. But when we come back, I want to dig into the warning signs. What are the signs that we need to know that you're dealing with a narcissist. So, Dr. Romani, what are the five warning signs that someone is a narcissist? So I would say number one would be that they're very reactive if they experience any form of feedback or criticism. So if you say anything, even like a really thoughtful critique, like, you know, I would consider rewriting this paragraph to write with a paper in your face.

Really? Oh, so your James Joyce, you write it, you know, that kind of thing. So very reactive, very quick. Number two, oppositionality. If you tell them to do something, they'll go out of their way. They don't like being told what to do. So you might ask them, could you wear a mask?

That was a big one during the pandemic. Could you wear a mask? How dare you tell me to do this? Could you not park there? That's reserved parking for the people who are coming to get, I don't know, coming to, for every reason. How could the days parks are, these spots are,

you I'm parking right here. They, if you tell them to do something, it is as though they feel they're being dominated in control, they ain't having that. That's another thing, as you see oppositionality. They are, their empathy is very superficial. Some people say, no, no, no, they had empathy. I'm like, talk to me about that empathy.

And what you'll see is that it is very performative. It's very superficial. So can you give us an example? An example might be, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, your brother's sick. Oh wow, that's got to be really, really hard. Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?

That sounds nice. Okay. Then very quickly it'll be like, you're, and now you want to talk about like, you'll say, I'm the other person now. Yeah, I know he's been sick, but it's brought up all this other stuff for me. You know, like, I'm really feeling like lost and I'm realizing how much my brother is how I, they know on here. So they'll come in with, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll, I always say this narcissistic

folks are great at thank you cards and thank you gifts, but they're really bad at, I true gratitude. So they will be seemingly impassive, but as soon as you go in a little deeper, like you're actually really talking about your brother's illness affected you, now you'll see they'll tune out like, woo, too much of emotion coming their way, too much need. So it's very quick silver. I would call thank you, card empathy. Like it'll seem so on point,

but they're not really present with you. They'll cry at a movie, but when that same exact thing happens in their life, they're actually treating the other person badly. And they don't even connect it to. Like you were just crying when crying when that man beat someone in the story and then, yeah, you were threatening something. How do you not see it?

They don't see it. They do not see it. So there is a performative quality to the empathy and there's also a transactional quality to their empathy. They'll be really warm to you when they need something, but when they get it, they'll actually click out. And that's a really bad feeling, because you recognize, oh, there were just nice

to me to get that thing. So I'd say it's this inconsistent, performative sort of pseudo superficial empathy. That's another thing. The fourth, I would say, is egocentricity. It's really hard for them to not hijack a conversation, interrupt people, and constantly make it about themselves.

So even when somebody might say, I went abroad from my very first trip and it was amazing and I went on an airplane and I did this and I did that. I got my first passport. Like really sweet. It's so beautiful to hear people. And you just sort of drink it all in. The narcissistic person, give them like three minutes and they'll like, what airline did you take? Yeah, and I take that airline, it's not that great. What hotel do you say? And like the hotel I'd

recommend in Rome is this. It's, I, I went there, I went to that restaurant and it just becomes, now it's there, a travel log and they're yammering on. They just love to hold court and my ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, it's always, the conversation always steers back to them. They cannot simply be present with somebody else telling a story or will interrupt or will sort of be contemptuous and be like like a lot of like oh my gosh we're listening to this sort of like summer vacation story great. What a good use of my time. If anyone's ever watched succession, I'd say the best contemptuous, narcissist performance I've ever seen in my life is Roman. And what is the fifth sign? I would say that it is.

It's constantly having to put other people down to lift them up. You know, oh, yeah, he thinks he got the right Tesla. Yeah, that's actually just sort of the baseline model. Or like, oh, nobody stays on that side of that island. It's very, it's putting other people down. And it is contempt. I would wrap up contempt in that. Narcissistic people are notoriously contemptuous. It often comes out as snobbery, but it can even come out,

even like, oh god, dude, nobody's doing that. And make fun of someone, and it can really, it can hurt the other person. And then what the narcissistic person will often do is they will then turn around and say, oh, I was just making a joke. So now if you react to it, it's a joke. But if you say something to them,

you say it's just a joke, they'll still rage at you. And I'll throw in a sixth sign, or it could be 5a, is gaslighting. They're constantly doubting reality. I never said that. I never did that. I didn't put that there. That never happened. And then when you try to push back on that, they'll say,

oh my god, you're so sensitive. Or have you seen a shrink? Because people don't usually react the way they are. So they leave you feeling as though you're impaired. So I'd say that gaslighting is like, is it five a. Because I gave you contempt as five. Well, okay. So I don't know if anybody else listening is having the experience I'm having right now, where I, I have a pit in my stomach. Because I have at least one person, very prominent person that I have in my mind in my life, and I'm like, check, check, check, check, check.

Somebody's talking at the table, they're rolling their eyes at other people, somebody leaves the room, they just immediately trash them as they leave. What I wanna know is we'll get into what to do, but now that you're really kind of pulling apart the signs, and we've learned that there are sort of two tracks in childhood where this behavior and this personality type is made, what is the impact if you have a parent What is the impact if you have a parent that is like this? Like if you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these, or you're like,

oh my God, I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist. Like check, check, check, how does that impact you now that you're an adult? So it's not good. That's the best answer I can give you. It is not good. That's the best answer I can give you. It is not good. So let's remember two things. First of all, I'm going to add a 5B to that list. Look for entitlement. Like that idea of they won't wait in line. They're special. They expect special treatment and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment. That's another sign to look for. But let's

remember this about narcissism. It's on a continuum. Not all narcissists are the same. So a person who is dealing with more of what we call a milder, lighter narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe narcissistic person. And I think that what that has sort of muddied the waters in this conversation because of a person dealing with a milder narcissist, here's the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narcissist who's saying, well, maybe I'm not dealing with a milder narcissist. Here's the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narcissist or saying, well, maybe I'm not dealing with a narcissist because I'm not living in terror. You know, I'm not isolated from all my friends. I still think that person dealing with a lighter narcissist is still feeling unseen, unheard, self-blaming and all

of that. It's just at a different level. The reason I bring this up is with the parents, right? I do think that any narcissism in a parent is never good for a child, but at the most of your levels, it's absolutely devastating. What it does is it hijacks a child's sense of self identity, autonomy. They don't believe in themselves. They believe that their needs are not, in fact, they've been shamed for their needs their entire life. You want something from me? You know, like, that's what the parent attitude is, maybe not that explicitly, but people who are grown

with narcissistic parents, the vast majority become rather anxious adults who are not aware of their own self-worth, who have very inaccurate self-opraisal, usually in the wrong direction, they do their devalue themselves entirely. They don't trust themselves. They downsell themselves. They don't aspire to things that they actually could do because in some ways they've so internalized the way they were shamed by that parent. But above all else, they sort of lose their entire sense of self because their parent never let them develop it because in essence the parent really experienced a child as an extension of themselves.

What does that mean when the child's the extension of the parent? So it means that the child should have no needs outside of that parent. So if the child goes along, everyone gets along. If they're, mommy, mommy, you're so pretty. And what do anything you want? And they eat the way the parent wants. And they do the sport, the parent wants. And they excel at what the parent wants. And they do the sport the parent wants. And they excel at what the parent wants.

And they just become literally the parent and have no identity or need outside of that. Everything's gonna be just fine. But that's not how kids work. The whole point of being a child is to individuate and become autonomous. And once that happens, the parent is not interested in that. And they don't like it.

So the child will always feel that they're almost in psychological servitude to that parent. They're not allowed to have a reality outside of the parent. Wow. Let's talk a little bit about this sort of whiplash because when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent or spouse or boss, it feels like I keep reading these comments

from our audience about like on one hand, you're like, okay, there's the tantrum behavior, but you still feel responsible for them. You still feel guilty when you're mad at them. You still want to please them. Correct. Why? Because there's a guy named Daniel Shaw who writes about this brilliantly. And I want to please them. Correct. Why? Because there's a guy named Daniel Shaw

who writes about this brilliantly. And I want to credit him because I'm going to use his language. He talks about, and it's going to be a technical term, and I'm going to bring it down to what all of us, how we'd make sense of it. He calls having a narcissistic parent. He calls it a loss of intersubjectivity. That's a real fancy way of saying, it's my reality, it's my way. You

are, you're almost like a non-entity here. You, everyone exists to serve me. I don't want you to have needs. I don't want you to be something separate. In a healthy parent, the child will be sad and the parent will sort of, even at the child parents in a good mood, the child will stop and be with their sad child and listen to them and empathize, whereas a narcissistic parent will say, this is my birthday, what is happening here? Like, wait, you're not, get this kid away from me. Like, well, how do you cry on my birthday? It's that kind of thing, right?

So, the child is not allowed to have any sort of experience outside of that of the parents. And then the parent really expresses the resentment at the child having needs, thus, the child internalizes a sense of shame and even guilt over having needs. So when they go into adulthood, that shame and guilt persists. Because that relationship, a lot of therapists

don't address it that explicitly. It's not an easy cycle to end, because remember, unlike an adult narcissistic relationship, the child needs the parent. The child needs the parent for safety, for shelter, for food. It's not like you can divorce a parent and say, I'm going to start dating again and see if I can find someone better. That is not how this works.

The child knows the parents, the only game in town. And identity is very much shaped by that attachment relationship, by that caregiving parental relationship. So what you're learning is that you're a pain in the neck, don't need so much, you're not good enough, because if you were good enough, that parent would be regulated, that parent would be happy. So you're doing something wrong,

and the narcissistic parent explicitly and implicitly communicates that to them. I wish you'd never been born. I wish you're so much trouble. I would have had such an amazing career if it weren't for you. Child shouldn't be hearing that. They'll shame a child's weight.

Like goodness, that somebody's eating too much. It's your cause you're a bad reflection on the parent. If you don't look the way the parent wants, you're not doing what the parent wants. Oh, my kid. He wants to play a violin. He won't even play sports. All of those things are the child

is supposed to be a violin. He won't even play sport. All of those things are the child is supposed to be a Functionary for the parent and so as that person goes into adulthood I would actually say it's almost a three-part whiplash. There is the sense of you know what the tantrum is you see it coming you then have the experience of Is this my fault? I need to calm them down, I feel bad. And then you have the third experience that you may still have some good moments with that parent. That parent may be really smart, really interesting,

really fun. I mean, in fact, a lot of people say, as I got older, there were parts of my parent I enjoyed because I'd noticed there was something fun, but I still felt the shaming and the blaming. And it's very interesting for a lot of narcissistic parents. They like babies because babies are sort of like an accessory, like a bag. You can kind of take them around, like, you know, and show them around town.

Once they can stop being baggable and carryable, not so interesting, but not so cute on social media, then there's this long period where that child needs more than it can give back. Then the child gets into late adolescent and early adulthood, the parents interested again. They can go out to dinner with them, they can go to a bar with them, they can go on an interesting vacation with them, they can bring them into the family business. And so now they're interested in their kid. And for some kids who desperately wanted that love, they go all in on that.

They're like, I'm gonna play tennis with my dad, or I'm gonna help my mom in her business, because no, no, no, I'm gonna get that love. The love you wanna when you're a four, you couldn't quite work in the family business. And that's where we get to this idea of the trauma bond. So what do you do now? If you're sitting there listening to this

and you're going, oh my God, that's me. And I do keep jumping back into the fire. It's like this, are they super hostile or, you know, are they loving me? Did I get it right? And now I'm getting affection or are they trying to annihilate me because they're not getting what they need for me? And I'm not behaving. So as an adult now, if you're going, this is me.

What do you do? So a couple of things. All right, number one, I am not gonna sugarcoat this and say there's like three easy steps to pushing back from a narcissistic parent, this ain't TikTok folks, like this is hard work. Okay, there is no three step, five step, 10 step, or even 172 step plan here.

Okay, I'm gonna take a deep breath. Yes, I need every one of you to hear. This is not TikTok. Okay. You need to wake up and realize that, first of all, you're not changing the weather in Chicago, and you're not gonna change the personality type if your parent is a narcissist,

or you are in love with one. Okay. Okay, so number one is the acknowledgement. parent is a narcissist or you are in love with one. Okay. Okay. So number one is the acknowledgement. And this is the hardest part of all. Although you're this person's child, narcissistic people view all the people around them as objects. Like my coffee maker or my tea maker this morning, I made a cup of tea. I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea. When I want a cup of tea, me and my tea maker or my tea maker this morning. I made a cup of tea I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea when I want a cup of tea

Me and my tea maker interact the rest of the day don't think about it once at all at all Why would I I don't need a cup of tea right and that's how narcissistic person result? Things about other people do I need some for you? Yeah, do I need something from you? Oh, yeah I do need something from you now. You're my central focus. I'm thinking about you only you. But just like, if that tea maker waddled over to me and said, Hey, could you listen to me? I'll be like, What? You're a tea maker. Like, go away. This is not beauty in the beast. Appliances do not talk. Get the hell away from me. You are a tea maker. Learn your place. So for a narcissistic person, we all serve a function for them, whether it's your, their lover, whether you're their accountant, whether you're their cleaner. That's

why narcissistic people always have like a team around them. So always about the team. I'm like, of course, you have a team around you, because everyone serves a function for you. I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor because this is a revolutionary idea for me. That a narcissistic person isn't ever thinking about you unless they need something for you. Exactly. And yet, if you have ever been in a serious relationship with a narcissist or you were raised by one, you think about them all the time. All the time. You're ruminating them. They're not thinking about you unless they need something from

you or you're a blockade to something they need. Right? Like you're not signing the deal or you're because you're sick, they can't go to something. Now they're thinking about you because they're mad at you. Right? Going back to that parenting issue. So as you get into adulthood, you are an object to them. So like, what can I do? What can I do? You're never going to be able to read their mind and give them everything they want. There is not there. You will never be able to, none of us are mind readers. You're never going to be able to fully anticipate. And what's so sad is people who are all in with narcissistic parents or even narcissistic partners will literally try to devote their

lives to anticipating the narcissistic persons every need so they can finally win them over that they could do it just right. So that's not possible because none of us are mind-reduced. Remember that? So what do you do? You give up, you get up,

you get up at that point, you're like, okay, I can only be the best person I can be. Live in a way that's in line with your own values, right? Now, this is what I'm saying that this is not an easy TikTok strategy, because even as you do that, even when the day comes, you realize, my parent is never going to change.

None of this is my fault. It's really just my genetic bad luck that this is the parent I pulled. Yeah. Again, I am not responsible for any of this. I need to stop taking my bucket to an empty well. They are never gonna notice me. They are never gonna have empathy for me. I cannot live my life as a sacrifice to them

and forever keep trying to please them and not living my own true authentic path. All of those things are important. Here's the part that I'm saying is never, this is just the work, is, and then when you tell your parent, no, I'm saying is never, this is just the work is and then when you tell your parent, no, I'm not coming to dinner this Sunday. I'm not. I didn't feel good last month. I'm taking a pass. Really, you're not coming. I was making that special thing and I really miss you and I'm thinking of you. And you know, I'm getting older 90%

of people are going to break under that one, and they're going to show up, and guess what's going to happen at that dinner again. The criticism, the humiliation, the devaluation, the invalidation, right? So I say to people, you got two options here. Either be with the guilt of saying no, or go to the dinner with realistic expectations. That when you, and almost make it a game, like a personal bingo, you know, it's not quite a drinking game because if you took a shot every time

the invalidated way to be loaded before the main course came. But if you, I literally have done this where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna collect points at this dinner for every five invalidations, I'm going to go like, I'm gonna get a scoop of ice cream. All right, and then like, and then it's like a little thing that pays out during the week

Like Tuesday. I'm going to get ice cream and on Thursday I might get a massage like 15 invalidations is usually a massage for me and I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm gonna And I'm like to do it again to it again. We're 13. I really want a massage. So let me ask you this question So should you ever confront a narcissist like somebody's gonna come listen to this podcast and be like, all right, that's it. I'm calling dad. Nope. Nope. I can't, if we only said one thing

in this entire podcast episode is never, ever call out a narcissist, we were giving this single most brilliant piece of advice. Wow. I need to hear more about this, but I gotta take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors. But when we come back, Dr. Romani, I want to know why is it that you say we should never call out a narcissist?

So, Dr. Romani, why do you never call out a narcissist? I'm going to temper that with, it depends on what you want. If you're doing this, because you want to say, it's like a gotcha moment, ha ha, I see you. Okay. And they're going to rage at you and they're going to scream at you and there might be a smear campaign now. And they may be telling everybody out there that not only you an ungrateful kid, but you are the narcissist and you're

the one who's harmful and everybody needs to keep their distance from you. And I mean, they will really do such a number on you that and they're not going to change. So if all it is for you to say, I see you, I think the better way to do to play that is you see them, not change your behavior. Stop being supply for them. Stop engaging with them. Stop taking the bait. So are you saying if you call home and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is, haven't

heard from you in a long time, you should not say, you know, the phone works both ways. No way. No. If you know this person's narcissistic, absolutely not. So he's like, haven't heard from you in a long time and you'd say, no, you haven't. Oh. And, well, where are they gonna go with that? Cause what you've done is you've taken away the volley.

They're playing tennis, you need to play solitaire. Can you give us some other role plays? So puts, put another conversation starter out there for me. Why don't you come to Thanksgiving? And the assumption in this one is why don't you come to Thanksgiving as this person's committed fully to not go away? Yeah, you gotta come to me. Okay, so you go, this is work. And I'm gonna step back before I roleplay that.

I'm going to introduce the concept of true North. Okay. True North. True North is a big healing, we call healing technique for folks, or at least it's a more of a management technique than healing I should say. True North is that you need to figure out what in your life is worth fighting for. So maybe you're not going to thanksgiving this year not only because you don't want to see them, but it's your Your kids playing football that day, right? And you do not want to miss that football game or

You have you do actually have a big deadline at work that Monday after Thanksgiving and you want to get it done or You said tack with it. This is the year. We're actually gonna go to We're gonna go camping and we're gonna go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving, okay? You're because that's what my family has always wanted to do. Whatever your friends, you've decided to take a trip with your friends. Your true north is what is healthy for you. So you've got to be clear on that. It sounds like it's a balance between how much guilt can you tolerate.

It is, it isn't. Because the guilt is people feel guilt. People feel guilt when they believe they're doing something wrong. So to which I'd say, what did you do wrong? You feel guilt if you committed a crime, if you guilt if you stole something, if you're guilt if you cheated on someone. So when people, my clients tell me all the time,

I feel guilty, I'm like, tell me what you did wrong. And that's when I get the pass. They're like, I don't want to go to Thanksgiving. I'm like, where's, I'm sorry. So help me understand where that's wrong. Well, that's what they want. I'm like, I hear that, but how is that wrong? Because the axiom to that is not doing what they want is wrong. Okay. Everybody, did you hear that? This is a huge takeaway. So if the lights are going off in your head and you're starting to go, wait a minute. I definitely either had a parent

that had some narcissistic personality or I'm in a relationship with somebody like this. The reason why you feel guilty is because if you don't do what they say, that's wrong. Correct. That's exactly what you were trained to believe. You were trained to believe that is. And if you had a parent like that, let's say this is even happening in your committed relationship or your marriage, then that's another time when you were, you were almost indoctrinated

into believing not doing what another person wants is wrong. And I like make the argument about it for me. This is foundational. Like because what happens is the tantrum throwing yes the shaming the gas I didn't say that like all the adolescent tantrum behavior lesson toddler. Yeah, is what actually has trained you to believe That not doing something that that person wants is wrong. That's why you feel guilty. That's why you feel guilty. Holy shit. Yeah. Wow.

Mm-hmm. How does, how do you get rid of that programming? Well, first of all is, one of the only paths forward to healing is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, right? I don't like that answer. And I know people don't like that answer, and I'll tell you why. Everyone goes to the damn gym, and they lift the weights, and they do the damn gym and they lift the weights and they do the this and they have cross-fitting that and and they're in pain Because they want a hot ass or they want abs or they want arms and they want to look good

Why are you willing to tolerate pain there and you're not willing to tolerate pain here? Pain's pain folks Huh, okay. I mean I'm I thought I had learned everything there was to learn about narcissism from you, but I'm having major breakthroughs right now and insights. So should authentic or empathetic people, how do we protect ourselves from narcissists in life? It's a tough one. I think that it's every so often,

every so often, and they're like that perfect seashell that's not cracked you find on the beach. I find these people who have never encountered narcissism. They had two loving parents. They grew up in a happy home. They love all their siblings. They met someone in college. They fell in love, they both got good

job. I hate these people. I'm just kidding. I do. I wish this was everybody, honestly. I'm happy for them. I'm happy for them. And those people just, like you talk about narcissism to them, and I could be talking about

like the, you know, like just some sort of, like they think I have a tinfoil hat on. They really do. And I get it, I get it because they have absolutely no schema for that. But going back to the world of the authentic and the empathic, that's also, especially the authentic folks, it's a rare group. Being authentic, here's the thing about authenticity,

man, something we lose, and I think it really gets brought into stark relief when we're talking about narcissism. People talk about authenticity like it's an easy thing. The hardest thing in the world is to be authentic, because to be authentic is to be unpopular. To be authentic is to blaze your own trail, even when other people are clock-clucking at you and stigmatizing you and looking at you the side eye, what are you doing? People don't do that. You're supposed to do the sort of missionary position,

follow the rules kind of life. And authentic people say, no, that's not who I am, that's not what I'm about. Authentic people are very clear on their values, what they stand for, what matters for them. And so I'm not saying that authentic people don't feel guilt, they'll feel tremendous guilt, but they'll also feel committed to the potential within them

and the people they care about. And to say, ultimately, giving into this person's abuse is not doing, honestly, me any favors for sure. It's not doing my kids any favors. It's not doing the people I care about any favors. And it's actually not doing them any favors because it's reinforcing them in this sick cycle and I don't want to be part of this. So we've got to get away from the idea that authenticity is easy.

Authenticity, authentic people actually often have smaller social networks than other people because they've called away all the dead weight. They've cleared away all the branches that are dead. Like they said, no, I will not have people around me that are unhealthy, that are invalidating. I mean, it is a brave stand, and it's not an easy stand. And some people say authentic people are selfish, they're cold, they're up in e,

they'll really paint them in like, oh, who do you think you are that you get to do that? And all the authentic person is doing is trying to draw boundary against unhealthy people. It is not easy to do because a lot of people feel like you have to put up with the unhealthy people. That's what we do, family stick together and all that kind of stuff.

And to which I say, no, I mean, why would we punish a person for, again, genetic bad luck for the rest of their lives? Is it normal for people to listen to you and start to worry, am I a narcissist? Because I'm also sitting here going, oh my God. Like, I kind of sound like this sometimes, like when I'm frustrated, like, is this me?

Like, now I'm starting to worry. Like, did this get like, ah, is this my personality? So here's the thing, not all of us, all of us, since I've been even every day, have moments when we're not graceful. What we need to look at is how quickly and how authentically we make amends. So if you snap at someone at work that you catch that and within, you know, very quickly say, ah, that was not okay. I am, I take responsibility for that. You are not responsible catch that. And within, you know, very quickly say, that was not okay. I am, I take responsibility for that.

You were not responsible for that. I was having a bad day, but that's not your problem. And so I apologize. That when we do those things now, no narcissistic person in the world is ever gonna do that unless a publicist makes them. Or, and then you can tell.

And then you can tell. That they don't wanna do it. Or, or because they're trying to save face or they'll say my favorite the The narcissistic apology, which is I'm sorry you feel that way That's how narcissists apologize. I'm sorry you feel that way. Oh, I'm like oh hell no the minute I say I hear that in my conversations done and I don't snore them off. I usually I'm very you got to learn your sort of like done. And I don't snore them off. I usually, I'm very, you got to learn your sort of like, not, Mona Lisa smile and say, you know, I got to jump. Now some people say that's passive aggressive. Well, there's no, there's no path forward. And if I'm not in the mood for a fight,

you'll say, you know, okay, you know, I got to, I got to jump. Thanks again. Are we, and then close off the conversation on whatever else needs to get done? Can you talk a little bit about family roles where they are narcissistic parents? I found that to be fascinating. Yeah. So, in a narcissistic family, and assuming there's more than one child, and even if there's not, that child could still be placed in a role, we have some sort of classical roles that kids fall into.

And roles are never a healthy in a family system, because in a way, you can see that each of these children are either being put in the role or have taken on this role as a survival need versus a child just getting to be a child, right? So the number one classical role sort of the golden child, right? This is the child who has been anointed by the narcissistic parent. It could be that that child is, it resembles the parent, the child is getting a lot of validation from the world. They may be good at something. And so they're the one who is always,

I don't know, doing well at sports or people like them or they sing well or whatever it may be that the parent is getting a lot of validation. So they make that child the golden child. Now usually to have a golden child, you need another sibling to sort of create that dynamic because that other child's not the golden child.

So it's clear they're sort of a chosen child and the household. Do golden children remain golden children permanently? Not necessarily. There's a point at which the golden child decides to step out of ranks or do something that aggravates the narcissistic parent. They will, the crown shall be removed from their head. The other primary role in these families is the scapegoat. Now, the scapegoat gets the worst of it.

And I would say in some cases, the scapegoats get it so terribly in narcissistic families they come out of childhood with something that looks like complex trauma. They are constantly criticized compared to other kids. They're literally not given. One kid's tuition will be paid for and the scapegoats will not. The scapegoat will be expected to get a summer job to help the family. The Golden Child will get to go to some special camp. Like it's a stark market difference. The scapegoat will endure abuse that other siblings and they family don't endure. Why is the scapegoat the scapegoat? It's hard to know.

I've heard every reason in the book, the scapegoat simply knows they're the scapegoat. And it is actually a, because the scapegoat is a terrible legacy to take into adulthood, because they will forever wonder why, what was it about me? What do you have to say to somebody

who's listening saying, that was me? You know, I would say, we do, we will start with trauma work, you know, validation of their experience, because for a lot of scapegoats, they were told, you were treated no differently. So, we start with straight up, you were treated differently. What that happened. And that's the foundation, and you kind of jump,

you keep grow from there, and that this was real. And then you explain to them how narcissistic families work and how narcissistic personalities work. Because ultimately it wasn't their fault. It wasn't the scapegoats fault. The next type is what I call sort of the helper. The helper child is almost like a sort of a personal assistant. They are constantly exhausting themselves

to do things for the parent. They may watch younger siblings. They might try to keep the house clean. And they'll feel like they themselves to do things for the parent. They may watch younger siblings. They might try to keep the house clean. They'll feel like they have to do this, not to be like a responsible player in the household, like everyone doing their part, but because they feel that this is the only way to get seen, recognized, or avoid the narcissistic parent's abuse. Another type of child we see is the fixer. The fixer is almost like this mini-dipple mat

who's trying to insert themselves in it all times, trying to make sure, like for example, if you have a narcissistic parent and a non-n narcissistic parent, there can be really terrible verbal abuse, sometimes even violence, but more verbal emotional abuse, and that fixer child will constantly be inserting themselves in it, almost like a court jester, to keep the parents from fighting. They will stay up later than they want to

to make sure that the parents don't argue. They'll try to, they'll often sometimes even fall on the grenade so that they'll sometimes try to protect the escape go. So that's the fixer. One thing that really struck me and what you're saying is having one parent versus two. I guess I just assumed there was always one.

Oh, there can be two. Two narcissists are attracted to each other. Oh heck, yeah. Why? Flashe, superficial grandiose. We're going to be the greatest thing ever. We're going to save the world together. I'm hot.

You're hot. Let's go be hot and save the world. You don't think those people are joined together? Oh, actually, that's true. You see them all over social thinking, social media, LA, all the time, and that's a nightmare scenario for a child because nobody, they only pay attention for their children when it's a good social media moment.

Like, I'm a mom-logger, and they've got their teeth-whiteened kind of husband smiling, and the children are in white shirts. White shirts! Who puts a child in a white shirt? and they've got their sort of teeth white and kind of husbands smiling and the children are in white shirts. White shirts, who puts a child in a white shirt? I don't think, I never owned anything white for my children now, they're like their 20s. So no, but they've got the white shirt

and the white teeth and the look at us. But then when the cameras are off, not so interested in those kids anymore. That's true and kids know when it's not. And kids know when it's found exactly. And that's a new way. This is the first generation of kids that were raised from social media, with social media from front to back. The data now needs to be collected.

But we've now also, but we've forgotten about the truth teller. The truth teller is a profound child in the narcissistic environment. This is the kid who sees it and gets it. And they don't have a vocabulary for it. In some ways they're a bit horrified because they're like, oh God. And the truth teller struggles. The truth teller may have fantasies of like, oh my gosh, I wish this parent would leave or I hope they never come back.

They're terrible. This is awful. Now, the truth teller can overlap. You'll have scapegoats who are truth tellers. You'll have helpers. The helpers not so much. Poor helpers are sort of like lost in there trying to make mom a martini kind of thing. But the scapegoats can sometimes be truth tellers. But the truth teller can sometimes ultimately be scapegoated because in a weird way, the narcissistic parent almost has this sense that that little kid has their number.

And it brings up a lot of shame for that parent, so they'll try to silence that child. And almost through the equivalent of almost like excommunicating them, like putting them in the cheap seats. And ultimately, I said, scapegoating them. And then every so often, there's the brainwashed child who thinks the narcissistic parent is just great and doesn't see it even into adulthood. And when other siblings say, you know, moms and narcissists, and they'll say, don't say that. She gave up everything for us.

You know, you're too selfish to see. So they're like, they are fully in the cult. Dr. Romani, you are unbelievable. Thank you for my personal therapy session. It's funny how that happened. Oh my gosh. I learned so much and I think there were a number of things that really stood out to me. Obviously, you can't change the weather in Chicago.

That's relieving. I also love that insecurity is at the core of someone who's a narcissist. And that helps me distance myself by feeling a little empathy. I know that's weird, but the empathy's kind of tied into the guilt a little bit. Like I actually feel bad. I wish this person were happy.

And I think that the, are they happy? Because they don't know? They're not. And in that balancing act, Mel, of, one thing that so many survivors are afraid of like, bathernarsizes, if you'll, if you're so dismissive to them is, I don't want to lose my empathy and my compassion.

Empathy and compassion doesn't mean you hang out and be someone's emotional punching bag. Empathy and compassion means that you can gracefully step away and even if they're raging at you, you don't need to get in the mud with them because you do recognize that they're having their pain. But empathy and compassion doesn't mean you forever remain someone's prisoner. Mm. That's beautiful.

The other thing that I learned in this episode that was incredibly helpful, and I'm sure it was helpful for everybody else, is the moment that you said, when we were all played about the calling, you know, like I haven't heard from you in a while, that idea that they're not thinking about you unless they need you. Correct. Even though they're suffering, they need supply, right? Norse statistic people care deeply how things look to the world. So it looks good to the world if you

show up for dinner, if you show up for Thanksgiving, whatever it is, right? That's what it is. That's their supply comes from it's not, did we have a loving compassionate Thanksgiving even if we ate it out of take out boxes? Does it all look good? Doesn't matter if everyone's miserable. So I mean if I screamed at everyone, I need the picture. I need the picture. I need the picture, right? So it's supply. It's all about narcissistic supply. So they need you there. They need someone there.

Buy and large narcissistic people, need other people. Some narcissists are introverted by buy and large as an extroversion pattern. We see in them. But it's the I need, I need to look good. I need you to tell me I'm great. I need you to come over and I need to feel like, look at me. I've got a big family. Not that they care about the people in the family,

just like, look at everyone around the table. This is my family, like you're a thing, versus human beings who may actually that year may have had an incredibly difficult year and that's a year you don't wanna get on the plane or you don't wanna drive the four hours or you've been not feeling well and you're for a compassionate family member to say, hey, listen, I'll even send you, I'm

going to send you some take in, get some rest. I love you. Like Thanksgiving is about that we keep. Wait, people do that? Yes, they do. And again, those are our agreeable folks, but no narcissistic persons ever going to do that. Imagine though that was your reality, that someone's like, hey, you need to do it.

You'd want to show up. You're like, hell no, I'm driving to a snowstorm to get to you. It's too cool to spend time with you. So the very person who'd give you permission to say, you need to do what feels right for you, is exactly the person you would probably trudge through like the rain to get to.

Whereas the narcissistic people, they feel entitled to you being there when they want you there. Which is why you also experience a lot of rage, right? Okay, this has been so amazing now. When we let our audience know that we were going to have you on, the comments, the forums blew up with questions about dating and work, and so we're going to have you back. We got to do part two of this conversation. And we have to focus on dating, how to spot it,

what to do, I wanna talk about work. And so we will definitely have you back. But you also have a tremendous amount of resources for people. And I know that you're thinking as you're listening to this or you're watching us on YouTube, that okay, I gotta dig in deeper. I wanna go deeper into my own healing.

And so I'm super excited that you have so many resources. And so we're going to link to everything in the show notes and also in the comments here on YouTube because here's the thing everybody. She's the world's leading expert in this. And I know that we've spent a lot of time talking about narcissism and understanding it, so you can spot it, so you can get some distance from it, so you can understand the biggest takeaway, she kept saying, it's not about you.

It really isn't. You did nothing wrong. It feels like it is. And you're not changing the weather in Chicago. Correct. Absolutely amazing. You are a complete gift. Thank you for all of your wisdom, your time, your expertise, the tools, the learning today.

It's just every time I spend time with you. It deepens my healing. It makes me smarter. I just love having you in my life. So thank you. Thank you so much, Melisade. My pleasure. I can't wait to have you back. We're talking dating and work., people. Here we go. And for you, in case nobody else tells you today, I love you. Dr. Romani loves you too. We believe in you and we believe in your ability to not only create a better life, but to heal from the things that are painful in your life. And we are both here to support you. So thank you for spending your most precious time with us. spending your most precious time with us.