The Mel Robbins Podcast - A Toolkit for Love: How to Find It, Keep It, and Let It Go

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

In this episode, you and I are getting a masterclass on the topic of love. And it’s not what you think.  This is not an episode about relationships – it is an episode about YOUR relationship to love and how you can let more love into your life.  My mission with this episode is to inspire you to stop and consider the profound subject of love, how important it is, and why you deserve to feel more love in your daily life. If you have felt alone or feel like your relationships are on autopilot, this episode is a real gift. I am also excited because as you listen to this episode, I get to introduce you to someone I really love.  He and his wife are very dear friends of ours and he just finished a two-year-long research project on the topic of love.  This friend of mine is also a former monk with a tender heart and a global fanbase.  His sage counsel on life is sought after by celebrities, world leaders, professional athletes, and the most successful artists in the world. I’m talking about none other than my friend, Jay Shetty. He’s the #1 New York Times bestselling author of Think Like a Monk, and his latest book is 8 Rules of Love. Climb into your favorite chair and get ready for a wild ride.  I threw out the talking points from Jay’s PR team and just went for it. I love this episode because Jay delivered.  He gets personal and reveals more about his own experience and mistakes with love than ever before. This is a must listen and a must share. Listen as a family. Listen with friends. Listen as a couple. Listen by yourself. Love is what we need. And hearing two dear friends go deep on the topic will make your heart swell. Even an old dog like me learned a few new tricks about how I can experience more love and be more loving in my life ❤️ Xo Mel In this episode, you’ll learn: 3:40: Hear Jay’s 3-part definition of love I’d never heard that is so spot on.4:30: According to research, this is how many hours you need to spend to make a casual friend, a good friend, and a great friend.6:40: Are you doing this with your partner? Jay says that’s not love.8:00: Okay wow, here’s where I realize I’m not doing something for my husband, Chris, that I should be doing.11:15: If your relationship is new, be careful you don’t do this.13:40: Why do we chase relationships in order to feel worthy?18:15: Rule #1 for finding love.19:50: What research shows will happen if you enter a relationship simply because you’re afraid of being alone.21:00: Hear Jay in a rare moment where he talks about his childhood trauma.27:00: Here’s why you keep dating the same kind of person over and over.29:00 One simple exercise you can do today to start building a healthy relationship.31:30: Jay leads us through a powerful meditation.38:15: There are four phases of love: hear them unpacked and explained.40:00:  Dating someone new? Then you need to know about both the “halo effect” and the “context effect.”43:30: Jay’s best piece of advice if you want that new relationship to last.47:00: Here’s Jay’s Rule #4 of love and why it’s my favorite.53:30: Is someone caring for you or controlling you? Here’s how to tell.55:00: What you might be doing in your relationship that’s hurting it.57:30: Here’s what I disagreed with Jay about.59:30: What is the purpose of love in your life? Jay answers. Want to go deeper into the topic of relationships? Listen to the last episode, “I Don’t Usually Share Advice Like This: 6 Lessons on Making Any Relationship Work.”  Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to an extraordinary episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. My name is Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the most trusted experts in the world on behavior change and motivation. And you know, I often say that the Mel Robbins Podcast is our podcast. And today, it truly is because of all the people that you have requested that I interview on this podcast, there is one person who you have asked for over and over and over again, more than anybody else on the planet of eight billion people. So today, it is my pleasure to welcome the most requested

human being of all time in person on this podcast, none other than the amazing Jay Shetty. Wow. I had no idea. That is so humbling and that is incredible. I thought you were going to say all of that and then follow it. Someone else's name. Oh, when you say it. No, no, no, I literally thought you were going to say all of that and then follow it. Someone else's name. Oh, when you say it. You're sitting here. No, no, no. I literally thought you were going to. That is so kind. And everyone who's requested me or has connected with my work or has liked a video, read a book

or listen to a podcast, thank you. Thank you so much. That honestly is, wow. That is incredible. Thank you so much. I want to tell you how comfortable you are. Thank you so much. So people not only love not comfortable, you are. Thank you so much. So people not only love you, but for those of you who may not know Jay's work or have

ever met him, I want you to know he's an award-winning podcast host. The show which you need to follow is on purpose. He is not only a former monk, he is the number one New York Times bestselling author of Think Like a Monk, his second book, which will absolutely be his second number one bestseller, Eight Rules of Love. I have this sucker right here. I have dog ear to it. I have post it noted this sucker. You can buy it at eight rules of love.com or wherever books are sold.

And by the way, Jay is a rock star. This guy is going on a global tour, Love rules, and that starts on February 21st. You are dedicated, Jay, to helping people train their mind for peace and purpose every day. Your viral videos have been viewed more than 10 billion times. You're followed by over 50 million people across social media.

And I am also like you honored to call you and your wife, Roddy, friends of Chris and mine. And so welcome, welcome, welcome. People have been not only requesting you, they've been asking for relationship advice. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. And thank you to everyone who submitted me. I mean, I've been wanting to come on your show.

Well, I've been wanting you to have a show for a long time. So I think everyone's very lucky that they get to have you every single week in their life. And, you know, as our friendships developed and blossomed, it's been so wonderful getting to know you better, to getting to know Chris better. And I'm just so grateful that you're doing this. I'm so grateful that I get to do this with you. So thank you. Thank you so much.

I want to start by just asking you, how would you define what love is having now research this book and unpacked the eight rules of love? Ultimately, I came up with a definition that I shared the book and through all the research that I did and I would encourage everyone to honestly come up with their own definition that I narrowed it down to three things. I define love as when you like someone's personality, when you respect their values and when you are committed to helping them achieve their goals. Wait, there was something missing there. when you're committed to helping them achieve their goals. Wait, there was something missing there.

What about attraction? What about, I really, I mean, I realize there's a difference between lust and love and connection and chemistry. But I mean, doesn't that have to be a part of it? Absolutely, absolutely. It does. But that's my definition. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That's your definition. That's your most definition stocks. That's the, no. That is a given, and I fully agree with that. I'm massively attracted to my wife, and that was a beginning spark of a big part of our relationship for sure. So very completely agree with you on that. I think these are the parts that are hidden.

So my definition of love is more looking. So it's liking them. Let me break each one down. So when I say liking someone's personality, you'll like this. All the studies show that if you consider someone a casual friend, you should have spent 40 hours with them. Yeah.

If you consider someone a good friend, you have to have spent 100 hours with them. And if you consider someone a great friend someone a good friend, you have to have spent 100 hours with them. If you can sit at someone a great friend, a best friend, you should have spent 200 quality hours with them. When I say do you like someone's personality, the question you should be asking is, do I want to spend 200 hours with this person? Am I intrigued enough? Am I curious enough?

Am I excited enough? That's liking someone's personality. Now I use my language very carefully in the second one, respecting their values. What I often find in relationships is that we want people to value what we value equally to how we value it. Most relationships fall apart because we're forcing someone to change what they value. We're trying to mold them and we're hoping that they'll contour and that they'll move and that they'll fold into valuing something else. So an example is, if you asked my wife what her number and value is, she would say family without a doubt. It would be her family. She told me that before we got married,

I've known that through our marriage. If you asked me what my value is, my number one value is my purpose and my service. And as I'm saying this, Radhi is back in London with her grandma. We've been in hospital for the past two weeks. And I'm here hoping that I get to serve your community and audience through this conversation. And both of us respect that, knowing that we'd be there for each other if we needed to, I said to Radeh, it was like the moment you need me in London, like I will be on a flight right back. Right. But at the same time, there's a mutual respect where I don't have to feel guilty for doing

what I love, and she doesn't have to be made to feel guilty for doing what she loves. And so I find that's where respect and value comes in. And the final one, this is like the hardest and the biggest and the truest, are you committed to helping them achieve their goals? Not the potential you think they have, not the goals you project onto them, not the life you think they could lead, but are you committed to helping achieve their goals? That is a sign of love. I think we think of lovers. I love this person so much. They could be so many things. I see their potential. That's not love. It's about you. And so

when I think about a practical example in my own life with my wife, a lot of the time when Rady would cook, as everyone knows, she's a vegan chef and recipe developer and she's a food scientist, like she's unbelievable. And every time we'd go somewhere, everyone would always say, Rady should start a restaurant. That's what she must do. And I remember at the beginning of our relationship, Rady would hear this all the time. And she started feeling the pressure that if she didn't start a restaurant, then that wasn't a sign that she'd achieved her goal. And we sat down and we said, well, is that what you want? Is that something that's really important to you?

And she realized maybe one day, but not right now. And I feel what could easily happen is we take all this outside input and we make it our partner's goal. But if we can stay committed to helping our partner with their journey, with their healing, with their path, that's a sign of love. And I don't think you have these three things with anyone else in this depth. So I want to stop right there because you've already dropped a bunch of like amazing wisdom

bombs on us all. And just make sure that everybody got what you just said. First of all, it strikes me that in an amazing, close friendship, those three things are present too. And one of the things I loved about your new book is that this is really about love, period in your life, and thinking about love as a skill, and how to both let it in and let it out and give and receive. And I also just got something from you that I want to acknowledge that this is probably an Achilles heel of mine. And in the example that you just shared,

I just realized something that I am not doing with my husband, Chris. So you talked about the example of other people saying to your wife, Roddy, you should open a restaurant, you should open a restaurant, and I could see that, because I'm like, oh, I'm a cook, that's a bad option, you should open a restaurant.

Maybe I'm getting a run. Yeah, and then you feel the pressure. I think often in relationships, we either want our partners to change, so we're pressuring them to change because we don't respect their values. We want them to conform to ours, right? And so then the resentment builds. Or you have this fear. And I just realized in listening to you that I have this fear with Chris. So Chris has started a men's retreat that he's been running for six years.

And as it gets more and more popular, I realize, Jay, that I have been subconsciously trying to steer him away from expanding it because I'm afraid that he's going to get very busy and that's going to impact our family life negatively. That is my fear. I haven't even sat down with him to have the conversation, what's your goal? And instead of being afraid of it or trying to manipulate it, that I actually listen and figure out out of love, the skill we're talking about, how to support him in achieving it.

Thank you so much for being vulnerable to that degree because it takes a lot to be that conscious to notice your subconscious that's happening. And I think it's very natural. I don't think that you doing that makes you a bad person. I don't think that makes you a selfish person. I don't think that makes you a manipulative or controlling person. I think it makes you human and it's natural. But I think as soon as we locate one of those fears or insecurities that we're projecting.

We have to do something about it because we could potentially derail our partners from the life they want to live. And I've coached and worked with couples who've been together three months, three years and 30 years. And I use that as a form of learning. I don't consider myself an expert when I'm with someone who has more relationship experience, including yourself and Chris. I'm taking notes. I'm learning from that person and I have so many clients that have had the experience that after 30 years, one partner has lived their dreams and the other partner has either sacrificed theirs in building the other persons, or forgotten

what theirs was in the first place. And that is such a common story that that person now in their 50s is reflecting and thinking, I can't get those studies back. Now I actually believe you can start right now and start there. I don't think you have to get those 30 years back. But for those of us who are in an earlier stage in our relationship, I want you to pivot away from that happening. And so our insecurities and fears get projected

on our partners. Yours is interesting because your fear is of him not being around. Often our fear or insecurity is our partner doesn't work as hard as us. So we want them to work harder. Often our insecurity or fear is our partner doesn't work as hard as us, so we want them to work harder. Often our insecurity or fear is, my partner doesn't put in as much effort as I do, so I want

them to put in more effort. So usually it's the other way around, but I really appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that because I think a lot of people who are listening and watching, that will really resonate with them. Okay, Jay. So I want to back up a little bit and start at the beginning of the spectrum when we talk about the topic of love because you and I both receive questions from people around the world every single day. And I see so many people struggling with this topic of feeling like

you aren't worthy of love unless somebody else is loving you back, that it's when you get into a relationship, Jay, and you find the one that you now know that you're worthy of love. And that's where you say in your new book, we've got it all wrong. So when we come back, that's where I want to start. I want to start with the story that we are telling ourselves about love and our self-worth. Stay with us. Hey, I'm Mel and I'm here with the number one New York Times bestselling author, Jay Shetty. We're talking about his new book, The Eight Rules of Love, and we're starting with this really important topic, which is why do so many of us chase relationships and love in order

to feel worthy as an individual. We all have a story that we're writing about love. And the interesting thing is that our mind makes us fiction writers, and we're writing our own fictional version of what our love story looks like. And it changes every single day. One day we feel like anyone would be lucky to have us, but then there's months that go by when we feel we're completely unlovable and we're not enough.

And I think it's really interesting because we both know this that the story you're saying to yourself, the story you're telling yourself naturally becomes your reality because you're looking for the facts, you're looking for those truths in your life. So if you think to yourself, you know, no one's attracted to me right now, you're looking for those truths in your life. So if you think to yourself, you know, no one's attracted to me right now, you're now going around looking for how many people are not attracted to you and don't look at you. And so if the story is, I'm not good enough, I'm not ready and I'm unlovable, which is a very true and real story of the people that are writing in for us, that unfortunately

is what you're going to perpetuate. And that's why rule one is about what you do alone. Because if you're waiting for someone to love you, to believe you're lovable, that means you're saying that the day they change their mind, you're now immediately unlovable. And so you're deciding whether you're lovable or not based on whether someone else thinks you're worthy of love. And I think that that sets us up for a lot of pain, a lot of stress, a lot of pressure. There's this beautiful thought from Paul Tillich. And he talks about how in the English language we have two words for being alone, but we only talk about one of them. And that word is

loneliness. I'm lonely. I feel alone. It's been a lonely day, it's been a lonely year, I'm experiencing loneliness. But we never use the other word. And the other word is solitude. It's just not used in other vocabulary. And he says that loneliness is the weakness of being alone and solitude is the glory or as I say the strength of being alone and what I want people to understand is that when you take the time on your own to do three things the first thing is you have to learn about yourself you have to learn what you like, what you don't like, what experiences you're into,

what you're not into, because what we don't realize is when you start dating someone, you adopt all of their likes and dislikes only in a few years to feel like you don't know who you are anymore, and you lose yourself. Well, this is going to sound like a dumb question, but I have to ask. Yeah. How the hell do you figure out what you like?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, relationships through high school and college J and the last person I was with cheated on me. And every time I go out to the bars with my friends, all my friends get approached by people. Mm-hmm. How do I find love? Like how to coach me. So, so first mistake and I wouldn't say this in a coaching session, but to speed it up for us.

First mistake, you're already thinking it's about what do you like about the partner. I'm saying what do you like about yourself? And where do you like it? What do you like in your partner? I'm saying what do you like about yourself? And where do you like it? You don't know. So very simple. When you go out for a dinner, as soon as you get back, you know whether you like the food at that restaurant or not, don't you? Yes. If you went out for a burrito, you know whether you like it or not. If you went out for Italian, you know whether you like it or not. How about we start doing that with people, places, and projects? How about we start reflecting when we take on a project

at work after we complete it, let's sit down and reflect. Don't reflect while you're doing it because that can often be misleading. Sometimes a piece of food comes out and it looks awkward or uncomfortable or it's a weird color, then you try it and it's incredible. So it's only by trying, do we know? And so after you've finished your project at work, did I like it or not? What did I like about it? What didn't I like about it?

Was that my comfort or was that my discomfort? Three questions, really easy. Did I like it or not? What did I like about it or not like about it? And what I didn't like about it was that just because it was uncomfortable or is it because I actually found it terrible? And if you did that with people, groups you spend time with so many of us, never change our friends over a decade because we never reflected when we left. You'd never go back to a restaurant if you had a bad experience. That's true. But you keep going back to the same person. Oh my God, we crawl back.

We crawl back. We beg them back in our lives. Because we never took that time to reflect because it was always about them We make it about them. Okay, so stop. I want to make sure everybody's heard that Skill number one rule number one let yourself be alone But what I want to say is this was the huge paradigm chiff for me so much of us are chasing and seeking love and Step one that I just got from you is you got to make it about yourself

and not about the other person. And until you understand the things you love and the things that make you come alive, when you're alone, that's the beginning of this. Yeah, we keep making lists of what we want in someone else, right? We keep making a list of I want them to be kind, I want them to be tall, I want them. So all of our energy is being pointed outwards rather than saying, who am I becoming? Who am I striving to grow into? What is it that I'm passionate about? When you're focused on all of that, all of a sudden you feel you have so much more to offer in a relationship, you walk into it, recognizing that someone would be fortunate to be with you and you'd be fortunate to be with them because you have something to share. I think most of us

we walk into relationships because we're scared of being alone. And when we do that, study show we do three things. If you're feeling alone, if you're scared of being alone and single and you're going into a relationship because of that fear, research shows three things happen. The first thing is you're guaranteed to settle for less than you deserve. Guaranteed. The second thing is you're more likely to be dependent on that person because you think they're out of your league and so now you will become do moldfold, become anything they

want you to be and the third is you're going to be scared to leave them Because being with them in your mind is better than being alone and so you think about all of us who've been in that situation before and by the way It's not your fault movies have done this. I have been in a situation before many times in my teens where I, sadly, and I regret this, I showed love to people in order for them to validate me. So it wasn't that I didn't like them, but I showed them more extreme forms of passion and love because I thought they'd say, Jay, that's amazing. You're the best person I've ever been with. I just wanted to hear those words.

And that comes back from my childhood trauma of being bullied for being overweight, for being bullied for being Indian, for having a group of girls who lined up next to my football match when I was 11 years old shouting, she's out of your league. to my football match when I was 11 years old, shouting, she's out of your league. What? Yeah. So I was 11 years old in primary school or elementary school, as you said in the US. And I was, there was one girl in school that everyone had a crush on, right? You're 11 years old.

And there's one girl that every guy had a crush on. And all the guys knew and all the girls knew, but she didn't know we had a crush on her. And one day I came in late from, I think a doctor's appointment or something like that. And Emma was laughing when I came in. And I didn't know what they were laughing about. So I sat down and Emma was giggling at me

and pointing at me, I was thinking, what's going on here? And then one of my friends slid me a note. And And the note I opened it and it said, she knows. I was like, she knows what? I realized that all the guys and all the girls had told her that the only person in the class that had a crush on her was me. And I was considered one of the least desirable people in my class because of my weight and the color of my skin. And so for the rest of that week, all the girls bullied me standing behind literally playing football.

When I say football, I mean soccer, but we're playing football and I was a goalkeeper because that was the only position I'd be allowed to play. And the girls lined up behind the goal and shouted out, she's out of your league. I can't believe you thought you could get a, I can't believe that you thought she could be with you. And I realized that trauma, that experience, transferred over to my teens, where now all I wanted was a girl to say, you're the best, you're amazing, you're incredible. Because of that other statement I'd heard

all those years before. I feel like you spend your life seeking validation. You then don't get it in the way you wanted it and then you finally decide you have to validate yourself. And that journey can be 10 years, 20 years, or even 50 years. And so the shorter we make that journey, the better it is. You know, it's amazing how we have these experiences and it just blocks our ability to let love in because we don't believe that we're worth it. That also, I'm realizing impacted how you first showed up when you started dating your wife Roddy.

Yes. So, can we talk about that? Yes. You know, I know that you were in business school when you first heard a monk speak at the age of 18 and you felt the you first heard a monk speak at the age of 18 and you felt the call to become a monk. And did you meet Roddy before you became a monk or how did you guys meet? Yeah, so I met the monk when I was 18 years old and I met Roddy just before six months before I was about to go and become a monk so my final year of university.

And the way we met was I was using the last six months, I would use all my weekends to go to the temple in my local area to train and to be honest, just to stay out of trouble because I was like, if I'm at university during my weekends, I'm gonna get into trouble. So I need to go and practice. And I was asked to show a lady, came in one day,

she was around my mom's age, and I was asked to show her around to do some services and some rituals at the temple. I've never been asked to do this before this day. I've never been asked to do it again. And at the end of it, she said to me, she has, she said, I have a daughter that I'd loved to introduce to you. I'd love for her to meet someone who's into spirituality and meditation. She's probably around your age.

And I said, well, I'm so sorry I'm going to go off and become a monk, but I'd introduce her to my sister. So that woman that I'd met happened to be Rathi's mom. And she brought Rathi in to meet me and I introduced her to my sister. And I saw Rathi. I'd probably exchange like three words with her. I thought she was stunning, but in my head I was like, no, no, no, I'm training to be a monk

and it is to stay focused, like don't worry about it. And so her, my sister became friends. When I came back from the monastery, her, my sister had become really close. Rady was at my house all the time. My sister was at hers all the time. And then my sister was our middle person, who our wing person, who helped us get the message across.

So we met before, and it was four years from, and then I found out that her mother that day prayed that her daughter would find someone like me, and I found that out many years later, and now I know she hates me because we moved to LA. So. Oh, my mother-in-law hates me. Yeah, my mother-in-law hates me because we moved to LA. So you mentioned though that you made you you've made mistakes in love and I want to just connect that that experience of being bullied as a kid and then feeling like if you just really get somebody

to love you back, then you're going to feel worthy for how you've showed up in the beginning with your now wife. I think another big thing for me was chasing the approval of a male figure. My dad was quite a luf when I was growing up and I've always considered my dad to be more of a friend and a father. And even till this day, my dad's my friend. I can always talk to him, but it was my mom who taught me how to like shave my beard,

and like, that's why I've great grooming, have it. I was gonna say, is that why you still have a beard? Did she not do the job with that? No, exactly, but my mom told me how to take care. My mom was the one who was teaching me, and guiding me through all the things that you think a dad would do. And what was really interesting about that

is I think the monks became my first male role models. And I was looking for them to validate me. Now the interesting thing when you're trying to get validated by monks is they don't validate you. They're just trying to teach you the truth. And so that's when I learned to validate myself during that time and it was really powerful. But here's the interesting thing.

We're conditioned so deeply. We've watched so many movies. We've listened to so many songs We've seen so many clichés and examples of what love truly is that we snap back into those habits as soon as we're back So as soon as I came back from the monastery and I started dating Rathi around six months later I snap back into all my old habits rather around six months later, I snap back into all my old habits because that's how strong it is. So if anyone ever feels compelled and you keep thinking, I keep dating the same person again and again.

I don't know. It's wrong with me. Why is wrong with us, Jen? Well, that's the thing. It's that the conditioning of the gifts and gaps that our parents left become the map of how we look for love. So if our parents gave us gifts, we're looking for people who give us those same gifts. If your parents were present, if they turned up to your dance recital, if they turned up to your soccer game,

you now are looking for someone who's forever present, unlikely as an adult. That's not always going to happen. And if your parents left gaps, maybe they didn't believe in you, maybe they criticized you, maybe they compared you to a sibling or a family member or a cousin, now you have that gap and you're hoping someone else is going to fill it. And what I learned during my time as a monk was whatever you want from someone else, first give it to yourself. If you're looking from compliments from someone else, give it to yourself first. If you're looking for understanding from someone else, understand yourself first. And if you're looking for validation and affection, do that for yourself first. That's why I love your high five habit. Like it's perfect. Right? The reason why it works is you're asking everyone to look in the mirror every morning

and give themselves exactly what they need from the day. And they can give it to themselves in the mirror. You're high-fiving yourself, like that is a perfect demonstration of how deeply you believe in this. I just want to offer up something to someone who may be listening and feeling like, but, but, but, but, but, one of the most simple exercises you could ever do, if you feel like you just can't break through in this area of being in a healthy relationship or truly finding or attracting love with the right person. Just write down on a piece of paper everything you're looking for and then be that person yourself.

And something funny happens. You're like actually looking for things that are avoid. And if you be those things for yourself, that person starts to show up. But Jay has an even deeper tool. You have this younger self meditation. Would you be willing to walk us through that meditation even just for a minute when we come back from the short break? I'd love to do that.

Awesome. Stay with us. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm here with my friend and the number one New York Times bestselling author, Jay Shetty. We are talking about the eight rules of love. And I promised, or I should say, Jay promised, that he would walk us through this meditation that you can do for your younger self. And it's beautiful. So I'm going to turn this over to J. So for anyone who's doing this, I'm just adding a disclaimer that this can be emotive, it can be challenging. And so please do this when you're in a safe space, when you are feeling more steady and you're feeling at ease. And maybe do it when you can follow it up with a bit of journaling or a bit of moment of reflection and maybe even a conversation with

a partner or a friend or someone that you trust. And so just to give that before before we dive in, but just want everyone to gently and softly close their eyes. And just take a moment to be present with your breath, the seat or bed or floor beneath you, and whatever sounds are in your environment. I want you to visualize yourself meeting your 13 year old self. Visualize what you were probably wearing. Visualize yourself at that age. And as you get closer, give them a warm, loving embrace. And now wish, you are told, you can give it to them right now. You are enough. You are worthy of love. You have what it takes.

Whatever it may be for you. Show them with all the love that you deserve then. And now ask them, what wisdom or insight they have for you? Just listen carefully, and if nothing comes up immediately, allow it to arise, even after this meditation, tomorrow or this week, what advice or insight or words does your younger self have for you. Once again, give them a warm loving embrace, all the love, all the connection,

and know that that inner child is forever within you, and you can revisit them, shower them with love whenever you like. And when you're ready, you can gently and softly open your eyes and just be present. Thank you for allowing us that space. I literally... Can you modify, Sharon? Please, I'd love to hear if you're so willing to. Yeah, I saw myself standing there with this Dorothy Hamill haircut, which was that famous Let me tell you the 13-year-old no ravens just don't look like the average

That's why I picked that awkward age like no at 13. I don't give you a very wide I've got this like better ton sweater on. I don't know why I'm focused on clothes. That's good. No, that's really good visualization. Like the more, I mean, if we had longer and as I described in the book, the more detail, the better. That's great. That's fantastic. Yeah. And I, I just was struck by how little I was.

And I remember what I said is, I've been waiting a long time for someone to say this. And then the wisdom was, please say this to me every day. And that whole thing that you said about showering yourself with love. And one of the things I want to point out about your book is that it's not only about the rules everybody, but you know, I'm on page, for example, 71 where he's unpacking rule two. And he has meditations in here where you can meditate on solitude. He has step-by-step guides for writing letters to your younger self. So it's

not just the science and the rules. It's also the tools. And one of the other places that I want to go, Jay, because I think there's so many people that struggle with the beginning stages of love. And we were joking earlier about lust versus love and chemistry versus true connection. And in your research, you talk about the need for us to define love for ourselves before we think about it, we feel it and that we have to know the four phases of love. So you can walk us through like these four phases of love. Yeah, absolutely walk us through like these four phases of love. Yeah, absolutely. So.

And I want to try to figure out which one you're in and which one I'm in. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And what's really interesting is that I found that someone can say I love you, and it means they want to spend their life with you. And someone else can say I love you, and it means they want to spend their life with you. And someone else can say, I love you, and it means they want to spend a night with you.

And the definition of love can truly be that large of a spectrum. Right, when someone says, I love you, you don't stop to say, where are we, what do you mean? You just say, I love you back. And what you forget in that moment is that you signed up to your contract of the word love, but they signed up to their contract of the word love.

If they're love men, I like this right now, that's what they meant when they said, I love you. And if you said, I love you and that man, I want to be with you forever, then that's what you signed up for. And you never checked whether your contracts matched. You never checked whether your definitions matched. And the unhealthy part about that is you're expecting what you signed up to. It's so true. Right. And so that's where it comes in. So the four phases of love are attraction, dreams, disappointments, and adapting, and trust. Okay. And so the first one is attraction, as we said.

Right. You have an attraction, you get excited. There's a spot. There's a spot. It could be something there. Now, if there isn't a spot on the other side, that with is a way it's... Can we just start right there? Yeah. Because I think especially mother of daughters.

Yes. And a son, but I'm more worried about it with our daughters. The attraction piece seems to flood everybody's ability to think. Yeah. What are like the red flags that this is the, I love you tonight. Don't text me tomorrow. And I have signed up for, I love you means we're at least going to breakfast. Yeah.

So I'm serious because as you think about the attraction phase, there has to be the spark. There has to be that moment where you're like, I'd spend 200 hours with you, even though I don't even really know you right now. What are red flags for when you realize my concept of what I'm signing up for is very different than what this person's concept is? Yeah, so what's really interesting about the way

I see red flags is, I think a lot of people think red flags are things that other people show you. And for me, it's more about how strong your radar is and what you're looking for. Okay. Because people just think, oh, someone's just going to show you all their flaws and mistakes very unlikely, because most people walk into dating or meeting someone as a job interview. And so they're presenting them themselves. And so the way you know a red flag, the first one is the halo effect.

You are giving them qualities that they've never shown you. So what is the other thing? I'll give you an example. If someone is attractive, you assume they must be trustworthy. If someone is smart or they went to a good school, you assume they must be organized at home. If someone is wealthy or famous, you assume they must be likeable. So what we're doing is we're giving people qualities they haven't shown us. If someone is kind in the moment, we think they must be kind all the time. We've never seen whether they're kind when they're stressed. We've never seen when they're kind when they're stressed. We've never seen when they're kind when they're tired. We've never seen if they're kind with their mom,

their family or anyone else. They've just shown us one moment of kindness and we've amplified that to be that they're kind all the time. Another red flag is something called the context effect. So, studies show that if you're holding a warm drink while on a date with someone, you're more likely to have warm feelings towards them. Really? Really, with that biologically simple. The context effect also refers to if you bump into someone at a wedding, you're more likely to think that could be the one because love is all around.

No way. Truly, the context effect is also that when you walk out of a theatre and you just watch the romantic comedy and they went off into the sunset happily ever after, you're more likely to believe you're going to bump into someone that you could do that with. So we have to be so aware of are we actually with this person in environments that don't promote and flourish love, but in the realities of life. How the heck do you do that when your hormones are like going crazy and yes, you've worked on knowing yourself and what you love?

But I just want to, yeah, I want to just come back to this idea of in the attraction phase, where you're not thinking rationally. How do you notice this in yourself? Do you start like bargaining with yourself? You start to notice that your crossing lines with your own values, what would you counsel somebody

to really pay attention to? If you continue to fall into a problem of making themselves available to people who are not actually available to you? Yeah, so the first thing that I'd look at is, is that person responding at the pace you're responding? Oh, right. Is that person responding at the pace you're responding?

Or are you constantly having to force play games? So what's really interesting about what you're saying is that the biology shows also that that spark we feel at the beginning, what we're really experiencing is excitement and stress at the same time. So the excitement is, I think they're hot. The stresses, do they think I'm hot? Yes. The excitement is, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I just texted them, I have their number.

The stresses, when are they going to text back? Yes. So we think chemistry in the spark is something that we just feel, but actually it's excitement and stress together. And what's really interesting is that as you get to know someone better, the stress decreases and comfort increases. So we think the sparks gone, but actually you've just become more comfortable in their presence. Now, how does this answer your question?

The way it answers your question is the idea that you can't control your hormones, you are going to go through that. You are going to feel all of these things. What you have to do is get past those feelings as they naturally will and then use your reasoning and logic to be thoughtful, to be mindful and slow things down. That's the number one thing I can say. Slow it down. You will make better decisions when you actually take time to see the other person,

but take time to reflect that you message them, but then you also take time again to slow down and say, I don't need to see them every day. I can see them once a week and see how this goes. And I think people are scared of doing that. And I want to validate, your hormones are going to push you and take over and you can't control that. You can only control what happens when they finally calm down and you can either look at that and go, oh, the spark went or you go, oh, now I actually get to see. It's almost like it's been foggy this whole time and now the fog's cleared. Now I can actually see. So sometimes you're just waiting or hoping that happens quicker and then you can actually see so you could do two things You can slow down the pace of a relationship emotionally

But you could spend more time with them to learn more about them in different scenarios And I think this is one of the biggest mistakes we make when we first see someone We only see them in a very specific scenario. We see them on date night. We see them at a movie We see them at a dinner What about you see them with a few of their friends? What about you get to know them over an activity that puts you both in an uncomfortable situation? What about you go to an escape room? What about you go to a pottery class? What about you go to something where neither of you have any skills, but you get to try something new because now you get to see how they deal with new things.

I remember the first time I took Rady to an escape room and we did a lot of activities when we first started dating and got together after we'd some, you know, gone past the first few dates and the escape room she could tell that I am obsessed with figuring things out. I'm obsessed with time management and I'm pretty intense to be with when we have one hour to get out of a locked room. And I'd be like, Rady, come on, we've got 55 minutes left. We've got to stay focused. Like, come on, okay, you look at that. I'm like, given all these directions.

And she's just like, whoop, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, you know, she's just like, bumping around and then she'll push something and the trap door will open, right? Like, she's an amazing, lateral thinker. And it was interesting because that's where I started to learn that I'm an intense obnoxious person to be around. She got to see that, thankfully she's still stayed with me. But the idea is you see so much more of a person

if you do things with them that are not an interview. And I really believe that if your relationship starts as an interview, it will end like a rejection and a firing. Ooh, hold on, hold on, and everybody hear that. If your relationship starts like an interview, it will end in a rejection or firing. And I keep thinking about this idea of slowing down

because if it's meant to last, you have plenty of time. And the speed is what's gonna make it break. Yes. One of the things that I wanna really focus on next because Jay unpacks the four phases of attraction, dreams, struggle and trust in the book is I think my favorite rule, honestly, of all eight is number four.

Your partner is your goal. I thought it would be, when you said your favorite rule, I was thinking it would be the same. Why did you think that? I don't know, I just feel like you, obviously you're in crisis of such an incredible, hard work based, like genuine, real relationship and marriage. And it's like, I think as you spend more time together,

you start learning so much more through your partner and from your partner. And I don't know, I just felt it. It was intuitive. I was just like, Mel, yeah, I can see Mel being Chris's guru and I can see Chris being Mel's guru. Well, you explain what that means because I think when you first hear

your partner is your guru, I didn't realize what it meant because it didn't mean what I thought it meant. Yeah. And I want to encourage people to understand that this step comes as you deepen a relationship. This isn't something you want on day one. Like if anyone's listening to that rule and you don't read the book and you're thinking, oh, yeah, my partner is my business mentor or they're my coach or they're my therapist. Like that's not what I'm talking about at all. What I'm saying is that as you deepen your friendship, as you deepen your relationship, as you

actually get to know each other better, your partner becomes the one person who exposes all your flaws, all your weaknesses and all your truths to you without even trying. And I'll give a personal example of this. When I first met Rathi, I didn't have anything. I didn't have a job. I was in $25,000 worth of debt. I didn't have any job offers or prospects. And I was being rejected by 40 different companies during the time we were dating.

And so I would tutor economics and subjects that I was great at college and university to students save up to pay for our dates. And I always felt intimidated that we'd go on dates and I'd be with her friends or family and they'd be like, well, what are you doing? What are you up to? And I really had no answer because I'd just come out of being a monk and surprise, surprise, no one wants to hire a form a monk. And then it was really interesting because as my career took off, I started to hit these external milestones.

And I'd hold them up almost not physically, but mentally, I would hold them up and I'd be like, Rathi, love me for this. Look what I just achieved. I did this, love me for this. And she wouldn't love me more for that. And so then I achieved something bigger. And I'd be like, well, look at this. Look what I did, look what I did for us. Look how amazing I am, like, love me for this.

And she didn't react differently. And so then I kept going and then I held it up. And it was at that point, I realized there's only two truths. Either my wife doesn't love me, which I know wasn't true because she showed me love in so many ways, or that there was something I was missing. And so what I realized was I was trying to get my wife to love me for what I achieved

when she actually loved me for who I am. She didn't teach me that by getting out of whiteboard and drawing bullet points. She taught me that by loving me only for my essence and who I was, so every time she would acknowledge me or appreciate me, it was not about the views or the downloads or the amount of people that were commenting. It was never the stuff she congratulated.

The things she congratulated was, I really love what I learned from you in that moment today. Or I really loved how you dealt with that challenge. Or I saw that you were being criticized for this and I saw how you responded. That's what I love about you. So just in the way she loved me, she was teaching me how to love myself. And I think that your partner is the only person who can do that for you because they know you so intimately. But the interesting thing is a guru in the way I learned from a guru and a ashram in the way I studied, gurus don't judge. They don't critique.

They're compassionate and empathetic. They don't complain and compare to show you your flaws. They reflect the truth back to you just by being present with you so that you can see yourself. And so a guru isn't a partner who's telling you what to do or manipulating and controlling you because that's ownership, that's not a relationship. And I think people hold on, hold on everybody. There was another one. The monk is in the house, drop on the wisdom. I love making you laugh. Oh gosh, you make me laugh so much. But you just said

Oh gosh, you really love so much. But you just said that when somebody's controlling you and when somebody is, I would even add in knit picking, criticizing, manipulating, judging, being cold with you, silent treatment, that's ownership. Will you talk more about that? Because I think there's a lot of people listening to you right now going, your marriage sounds amazing.

Yeah. And my relationship sucks. Yeah. Because I do not have a partner that is like that. I have a partner that's criticizing me. I have a partner that is doing all those things that make me feel bad. So talk to that person in this notion of partnership versus ownership.

Yeah, absolutely. And so we come into relationships based on the imprints that our parents gave us as we talked about before or even our first partners gave us. And we also have so much inside of us that's unresolved that that comes out in four ways. And these four things are comparison, criticism, complaining, and control. We think that if we do these four things, we feel better about ourselves, our partner may change. And overall, this is the language we've learned in how to talk to anyone. And so what we do is we compare them to someone else thinking that if they know what one of our friends did for their anniversary, then our partner will get their act together. No one in the history of comparison has ever changed their life because they were compared

to someone else. You don't make someone act better by making them feel inferior. It doesn't work that way. People act better because they feel inspired too. They feel called to. They feel energized in their life. But we try and use comparison. If someone else is trying to control you, it can often come in the form of care.

It can look like care, but it's actually control. And there's only one way to know, is someone giving you care in the way you want to better you? Or are they doing it to make you more comfortable and convenient for them. Are they telling you what to wear? Are they telling you which of your friends are a good influence on you? When you hear that, you think, oh, they might actually care about me. They might actually care about me because they're telling me these friends are a bad influence, these friends are a good influence. But wait a minute, I've never actually told them what I even do with these friends. I've never even told them. And by the way, I did some of this when I met Rathi, when I met Rathi, I would

look at some of her friends and I'd think, well, I don't think they're a good influence on her. And even if it came from a place of care, I realized that wasn't my position. Some of these friends had been in her life far longer than I'd been in her life. Wow. That whole paradigm of ownership versus partnership. I hope that's a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Is somebody controlling you and trying to change you and own what you're doing, or are they truly in partnership supporting you with your goals and hearing you? And it applies the other way too, Mel, I think a lot of us who are in personal growth, who are in self-development,

we have a bad habit of wanting to improve our partners, but not in the way they want, in the way we want. The amount of people that come to me and say, Jay, I'm like, really begging my partner to read your book, and I'm like, please don't. Like, please don't. I mean it because I want you to actually stay together, And maybe what they need to do is they need to watch one of my interviews with an athlete. They love. Maybe that's what they need to. Maybe

they don't even need to learn from me. Maybe they need to learn from a completely different person and maybe it's one of our friends. Maybe it's someone else. Maybe it's someone from decades ago. The point is, are you trying to get them to the next step in their journey? Or are you trying to get them to the next step in your journey? Oh, okay. Hold on, everybody. Did you just hear that? Because that is literally...

That's it. That's it. It was so... Like, I really like to stop because... Yeah, yeah, no, it's beautiful. You do it so well. I just want everybody listening to get the wisdom that you are weaving together because I think that's it right there. Are you trying to get them to step forward?

You said it better. So I was saying, are you trying to get them to the next step in their journey? Or are you trying to get them to the next step in their journey, or are you trying to get them to the next step in your journey? So you may love listening to me and Mel, and that's beautiful, and I love that. And if your partner loves listening to me and Mel too, awesome. But chances are, they might learn from a different voice and a different coach and a different teacher and a different guide, and guess what?

That's okay, because what inspires them may be completely different. I've had clients before where I'm working with the wife I'm working with the husband, and they want me to work with each other. And I'll say, if they want to, if that person wants to learn from me, I'm all for it. But we have to allow people to select their own mentors.

We have to allow people to select their own path. And by the way, I'll give an example. There's a couple that I know, and one of them finds knowledge and learning to be what growth means to them, and one of them finds service. So one of them will happily go to a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, and help out every week.

And to them, that's growth. And to the other person reading books, listening to podcasts, trying to study and be better is their form of growth. Now, could we honestly say one is better than the other? No, it's just two different parts and probably they'll cross at one point if we don't push the other person away, but sometimes we push away the other person so far that our parts of growth never get to come together. Yes, and I think you also have to be present enough to know when someone that you

quote love is pushing you off your path. Mm-hmm. That you're busy supporting them on theirs, but they are not meeting you halfway. Yeah. Now one thing I am going to disagree with you on.

Please. Is that I do think you should send this episode to a person that you're in a relationship with because I think it provides a tremendous amount of things to talk about. And it might not be the same things that you think you want to talk about. But, you know, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you. And that is, I just keep thinking about this idea that the whole purpose of your relationship is to help your partner achieve their goals. And if you're in a relationship where you are focused on their goals and they are focused

on yours. That is true partnership because you're showing up in a way that somebody really feels honored and seen and heard and supported and you will feel the exact same way. And it's so simple and we make it so complicated. Obviously we're friends, but I did research before you came on and I noticed this article in the telegraph and I did not realize that you had officiated JLo's wedding.

If you were to give someone listening because I think that moment of a wedding, right? Where you are really holding space for somebody's love and relationship. If you were to give the person listening right now, one final thing to think about the purpose of love in their life. What would you say? What a great question. I would say that we think that the greatest act of love is to give love, share love, feel love. But actually the greatest act of love is loving someone so much that they learn to love themselves. And that's the act of love that you have loved someone so beautifully and deeply, not that they feel loved by you, but that they've learned to love themselves. And I think that's hard when we love out of ego

and selfishness and pride, we make people feel impressed by how much we love them. I would not feel proud if Rady would just feel I feel loved by my husband. That's great. That's awesome. I'd feel more proud if she said, the way J loves me makes me love myself more. My only goal is to hope that the way I love them will help them fall in love with themselves and that what I see in them, they'll see in themselves and that what I don't see in them, they'll discover within themselves. And so I think whether it's marriage, whether it's moving in, whether it's a long-term relationship, that's what I'd have to say.

Beautiful. And what I want to say is, in case nobody else tells you today, Jay and I want to tell you, that we love you. Yeah, absolutely. And we believe in you. Absolutely. And your ability to feel, express, give and receive the love that you deserve in your life. And start noticing all the love that is there in your life and you'll start

feeling and finding the one that isn't because you are loved by your brother, sister, family, child, dog, cat. Like, you are loved. You're loved by me and me. You are loved. And if we start noticing how loved we are, we'll find that we're not as drained of love as we feel we are.

I don't know about you, but I just feel my heart swelling with love. So thank you, Jay. I love you and thank you for being here. I'll talk to you in a few days. Oh, one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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