The Mel Robbins Podcast - Don’t Argue or Fight With a Difficult Person – Do This Instead (#1 Narcissism Expert)

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Do you have a family member, a boss, or even a close friend who constantly drains your energy or makes everything about them? In today’s episode, you’ll learn how to protect yourself from toxic, self-centered personalities that can make you feel exhausted and frustrated.Dr. Ramani, a world-renowned expert on narcissism, gives you the playbook to navigate even the most challenging personalities. She will break down the signs of narcissistic behavior and arm you with the strategies you need to maintain your boundaries and your sanity. You’ll learn how to stop letting difficult people control your life and get practical advice on how to create a game plan for peace in every one of your relationships.If you liked this tactical and powerful episode, listen to this one next: How to Handle Negative People: 6 Strategies to Protect Your PeaceFor more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. Connect with Mel: Get Mel’s new free 26-page workbook, What Do You Really Want, to finally answer that question and redefine your future.Watch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel’s personal letter Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. This weekend, my husband and I are going to go to this function where there's going to be a particular person. And honestly, the person is really hard to deal with. Like it's always about them. They hate it when things don't go their way. And how do you know that? Because they either erupt or they stir the pot or they're constantly like making trouble

or they're sulking in the corner, like trying to draw the attention to them. And here's the other thing about this person and their personality. They don't have any interest in anyone but themselves, unless of course they need something from you. And then of course you're the first person that they're gonna call. Now I've bet you've got someone or maybe many people like this in your life too.

They never ask you a single question about your life. It's like, it doesn't even occur to them. And it's not like it has to be about me all the time, but it's so clear when you're around this person that it's always about them. Is this ringing any bells for you? Maybe it's your brother. Maybe it sounds like I'm describing your boss

or your dad or your mom. Maybe it's the person that your sister is now dating. I mean, you can't quite put your finger on it, but something is off. And you always know that anytime that you're gonna have to spend the weekend with them or be in a meeting with them or have a family dinner with them,

you are gonna leave and you're gonna feel drained, you're gonna feel slightly annoyed by simply having had to be around them. So now that you have that person in mind, I got a question for you. Do you know how to deal with them? I'm dead serious about this. Do you know how to protect yourself from this kind of personality where no matter what you do, it is always about them? Well, that's what you and I are going to talk about today. And we're not just going to talk about this particular personality style. You're going to

get a playbook of tactics, strategies, do's, and we're definitely talking about the don'ts. And there are going to be specific things you need to say the next time you're about to be with someone who's literally all about themselves. Hey, it's your friend Mel. And first of all, thank you for being here with me today. I just love spending time with you. It's always an honor to be together. And I also want to thank you for taking the time to listen to something that could really help you improve your life. And if you're brand new, I want to welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm on a mission to inspire, empower you with tools and expert resources

that you need and deserve that are going to help you live a more meaningful life. And on that topic, holy cow, is our conversation today going to help? live a more meaningful life. And on that topic, holy cow, is our conversation today going to help? Because we are talking about something that can be a huge obstacle to living your best life. And that is dealing with a person who has a very specific personality type. And, you know, before I describe the personality type, I'm gonna just share with you, there are two people in my life who I have to deal with in a somewhat frequent basis

that have just this weird combination in their personality, where on one hand it's all about them, and at the same time, even though they're like super into themselves and egotistical, they are crazy emotionally immature. And I just keep expecting it to change. One of these people that I'm referring to, if they're not the center of attention, it's just astonishing how they always figure out how to create some kind of distraction

and pull the attention to them. It's like whether they're suddenly venting about something or they're acting like a victim or they're gossiping in the corner and creating allies or they're sulking because someone else is center stage and they're not the center of attention or they're the kind of person that you just know any single second, even though they're like quiet,

that they could fly off the handle and snap, and they never, never ask you a single question. You wanna know why? Because they're not interested in your life. And here's the funniest thing. You know the two people I'm referring to? Like, if they listened to this episode, they literally would have no idea I was talking about them.

And I'm sure as I describe this, there is somebody coming to mind for you. And as much as you keep wanting the dynamic and the person to be different, it isn't. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter how many times you call. It doesn't matter how supportive you are, how many hundreds or thousands of hours you've spent listening to the drama in their life. It doesn't matter how many times you've made excuses for the way they always have a way of turning it back on you, making it your fault. It just never changes. Is this ringing any bells for you? Well, learning that there is a word to describe this type of person changed my life. Because according to the experts, what I'm describing is a very rigid but very predictable

personality style, and it's called narcissism. And learning about narcissism personality styles, what it is, how to spot it almost as if it's a framework, it has helped me immensely in my life because the single biggest takeaway that I've learned and that I've had to put to use in my own life and that I'm definitely gonna be putting to use this weekend is that this person, this person that you're thinking about

is never gonna change. You need to change your approach. Now, I wanna say right up front, we have done a number of episodes on the topic of narcissism. In fact, our most popular expert of all time on YouTube is back, she's the world's leading expert on narcissism. But if you think you know everything about narcissism, you're wrong, because today's conversation

is extremely, extremely different. Because we're not focused on them. We're focused on you. What you need to know, what you need to do when you have this kind of personality in your life, because maybe it's one of your kids, maybe it's one of your parents and you're not wanting to cut them out, but you wish they would cut the crap. And today you and I are going to talk about how to live with someone like this in your

life because you cannot avoid this personality style. And our expert today, Dr. Romney, is going to give you the do's and definitely going to give you the don'ts. And we're going to cover topics that you have never heard discussed before. Like what do you do if you think one of your kids or any young adult that you know may have a narcissistic personality style? She's going to talk about the difference between a true narcissistic personality and developmental phases that kids and young adults go through that are actually quite healthy. She's also going to talk about something you will have never heard spoken

about before, which is what do you do if you have kids with someone who has a narcissistic personality style and her advice in that situation is going to shock you? Now, you know that I always recommend that you share these episodes with people that you love, but this one in particular is going to be eye-opening and it could be a real lifesaver. If there's someone that you know who's in a lot of pain

or feeling a lot of friction because they're dealing with a narcissistic personality style at work, in their marriage or their family, what Dr. Romney is going to do today, the tools, the tactics, the strategies, it will change your life. And so here's how this is going to go down. I've got specific questions

and Dr. Romney is here to answer them rapid fire. Now a little bit about Dr. Romney Diversola. She's a renowned psychologist, professor and bestselling author. She is one of the absolute fan favorite experts here on the Mel Robbins podcast. In fact, she is our single most popular expert and today she's back.

So let's jump in. Dr. Romney, I've got so many extraordinary questions and I wanna start with one that just kind of sets the groundwork. Can you just explain the difference between somebody that has a narcissistic personality style and say someone who just has an inflated ego? So when we talk about narcissism

and it's something I've talked to you before, a carrot is not soup. A carrot is an ingredient in soup. An inflated ego is just a part of the larger spectrum of narcissism, which also includes things like variable, empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, the need for admiration and validation, envying other people, the need for control, on and on and on and on. A person with an inflated ego, am I willing to take the bet that they're narcissistic? Sure, but I'm not sure I'm gonna move all my chips to the middle of the table.

One of the things that you said in the first episode that we did with you was you made a distinction between somebody who's annoying and that's someone with an inflated ego versus somebody who is narcissistic, who is harmful. Yep, it's the harmful part. And I think that that's a key element because I think by definition,

if a person really does have the whole constellation of stuff you need to have to be narcissistic, inflated ego is definitely part of it. But there are people out there who have these big inflated egos, but they're actually kind of these, also can be very teddy bear ish. They almost sound like, I don't know, like circusy people like, I'm the best, I'm the greatest, come here, give me a hug. I think you're so great too. And they're actually very sweet and present. So that's why I'm saying

you can't assume. Do they tend to go together? Like it's a bet, right? If I see inflated ego, am I willing to bet that this horse might be narcissistic? Sure. You know, one thing I wanna do to defend you is that this person had asked, are we mistaking personality traits with a clinical diagnosis? You've been very vocal in your work

about saying this is a personality style and that people on the internet are diagnosing other people with narcissism. And the other thing to keep in mind is that the second that you click on a TikTok video or an Instagram reel that is about narcissism, you're going to see more of it. What you're here to say is that this is a personality style and that it is critical that you recognize the signs of it because it is a personality style that is maladaptive, that hurts other people. And I learned that in the first episode we did with you that we will link to this one.

Is it best to leave my narcissistic husband or stay for the sake of my children? My seven-year-old is terrified of my husband when he rages. I don't think it's best for me to remain, but I'm wondering if I should wait until they are older or grown to leave. This right here is the question of all survivors who are in the situation like this. Rageful narcissist, likely not a good parent, child is scared of them, but then there is that big thing called family court. And the one thing the narcissistic person knows well is how to punish you. Now, once they figure out that messing with

custody is going to destroy your soul, they're going all in. And most judges in this country will award 50% to the other parent if they ask for it, which is a lot of time spent away from the parent who's the healthier parent. And this is what people grapple with. And here's what's so challenging, Mal, and this is one of those cases where I'm not going to be able to give a good answer because you're at the crossroads where you either get the divorce, deal with the custody set up, know that there's times your child is alone with that parent that they're scared of, okay? Or you stick it out. Some parents get solace from knowing their presence, so at least they can run interference for that child with this toxic parent. They might wait until the child feels more able to autonomously make needs known. There is no right answer here. Some of this is going to

come down to money. Are you going to be able to secure housing for you and your child and for children the way you want? Getting access to mental health for that child before you ever make a decision on a divorce is crucial. Because I can promise you this, once that marriage splits and you don't make the proper stipulations in the parenting agreement, that parent will stop therapy. I see this happen over and over again. They insist on two-party consent for things like mental health services, and then the narcissistic parent won't sign. It's back to court, back to court, back to court. So get that child into therapy while you only need the signature of one

parent because you're both still married. Get your ducks in line, talk to a divorce attorney, pay whatever they charge for an hour, go in there prepared, tax returns, whatever you need, and ask them, what am I looking at? What are the laws of this state? Because they're different in every state. What am I looking at with custody? What am I looking at with money? I think what the problem is, is that too many people don't go into this conversation prepared. Marriage is a legal contract. Make no mistake, people read their rental car contracts more carefully than they understand exactly what the hell they're getting into when they marry someone. And so figure this

out, even if you're not going to get divorced for 10 years, getting that clear feedback from a divorce attorney makes a huge difference in your decision making. When I read a message like this, this is the first time somebody vocalizes that they're considering leaving. I know that they're on their way out. It may take five years, it may take eight years, they might even wait till that child's 18th birthday, which I cannot tell you how many people I know waited till midnight on their child's 18th birthday. And then they started the process. By that next day, they had filed for divorce, no custody involved. I have to be honest with you.

I really wish you were going to say get out now. No, no. Because I know I'm just being honest because I, you want a clear cut answer. There's not one. There's not, the systems don't allow it now. Family court is one of the most abusive systems in this country. There are people involved in court reform, the stuff they bring to me. I'm thinking this is not in the best interest of the child. If you get unlucky with the judge, you're screwed. Well, and also I think all of us have some friend or

family member that is watching a divorce play out a decade later, constantly going back into court because it's a way for somebody with a narcissistic personality style to continue punishing and being in control. It's called post-separation abuse. It's a formal thing. Post-separation abuse. They keep going and going and going.

But I will say this and something I tell many, many parents, a mistake they make, I think too many people are like, I'm going to fight for my child no matter what. And the narcissistic person grabs onto that and like, oh, is that your weak point? But if you, I remember once coaching a woman and she wanted to play this whole mother lioness thing. I'm like, slow it down. And instead, when she was at, they were having one of these many hearings they'd go through. She said, you know, I, I, this, this, and she was dying inside at the agreement that was coming down the pike.

And she said, okay, that's great. You know what? Actually these alternate weekends, this is going to work great for me because there are so many friends I've been wanting to connect with. And I've been, you know, I've been wanting to get back into some of this, the hiking and climbing I was doing. This is actually, I'm gonna really use the weekends as well. You know that fool, he's like, what? Yeah, no, no, don't think you're just gonna, no, no, no, wait, wait.

And so when it got framed as, that's tough, she was totally cool headed. She said, totally fine, get it. I'm actually, this is great. I mean, it's good to know this because I're wanting to do this stuff and pursue this. And so I'll be using that time well. And I'm sure the kids will love spending time with you. And by the time the whole thing was done, 80-20 instead of the 50-50. Well, you are just hammering one message, strategy, strategy, strategy, acceptance of

what it is. You're never changing this. It's only going to get worse. You got to accept it. You got to be strategic. Right. I've got rapid fire questions. And for you listening, I know you're getting so much already, but I want to

tell you to stay with us, I want to take a quick pause so you can hear a word from our sponsors, our sponsors allow me to bring somebody amazing like Dr. Romany to you at zero cost. When we come back, one of the questions that I saw the most in the inbox for Dr. Ramani, she's gonna answer it. You do not wanna miss this, stay with us. And we'll be right back. Welcome back.

Thanks for listening to the sponsors and being here Welcome back. Thanks for listening to the sponsors and being here for this remarkable conversation with Dr. Ramani Diversola, one of the world's leading experts on narcissism. Today she is taking your questions from listeners around the world. So Dr. Ramani, this next question is one about leaving someone. How do you deal with a narcissist who won't accept your boundaries? My mom is a narcissist and whenever I try to set a boundary, she will act receptive or understanding at first, then an hour or two later, she will change her mind, reject my boundary request. Unfortunately, the minute you disagree with her or upset her, she tries to, quote, punish you by cutting you out of her life. Right. So setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine. It's really a bad idea and it's a fool's errand,

right? I'm tired of people giving guidance to people like set boundaries. Wait, aren't we supposed to? Not with narcissists, you said it with everybody else, but this is a pointless endeavor and all it does is create more friction in this kind of drama this person's having with their mother who is silent treatmenting and being sullen and all these other things. So this idea of setting boundaries with a narcissistic person, I always say it's an inside job. If you say to them, I don't want you to talk about this, I don't want you to come this, you are basically inviting them to do that thing because they know they can mess with you. All right? So unless you want to spend the remainder of your time on this

planet getting into a power struggle with them, which I just said, you cannot win, then your better bet is to set an internal boundary, which is I now know that these topics are off limits. I know that if I invite this person to this event, this is going to happen. So I'm going to have to figure out an alternative. I know if I make a reservation with them for dinner, they're going to show up 25 minutes late. So I need to make a reservation at that place that seats us when we're not yet a complete party. Some people say, well, you're enabling the narcissist. You're actually not because there's no setting a boundary with them and you want to have the dinner and you may have to invite them. But at least y'all can start eating. And when they come in and say, how dare you start with us? We said to come at seven. You didn't come at seven. They seated us. We started eating.

You set a boundary. I love that distinction because you're right. When you say I'm going to set a boundary with somebody who's narcissistic, it implies that you're going to tell them about it. Versus you're just saying just understand the situation for what it is. Understand the person is not changing, recognize the patterns and set sort of this boundary with yourself. Like for me, the one that I have in my life with a particular person is it's a three night limit. That's right. Because by day four, this person gets prickly.

So you, Mel, you would never say to that person, we have a three night limit. No, oh my God, no. That would be this, what a lot of people would say, well, if a person is saying things that offend you, you need to say, that thing you're saying is offending me, tiger's cage. Try that with the narcissist. Call me up. Let me know how that works. Yeah. And like, I also don't set the boundaries that are like, I don't talk about politics with you because you're an absolutely

irrational freak that then dominates the conversation if anybody asks a question or tries to offer a different point of view. I set a boundary with myself. I get up from the table. I don't engage. That's right. That you don't engage. Because I know exactly what's about to happen. I have no hope of it being different. I have accepted it. I set the boundary. I don't engage in this stuff. I remove myself. That's a boundary. Not what this poor person, unfortunately, is trying to do the impossible with the mother and will be forever disappointed. Right. Because if you go, mom, let's not talk about, why, you don't want to talk about politics because you don't like it. Yeah, we all know how that goes. Yep. Got it. Internal boundaries only. I say boundaries are an inside game.

I love that. My child is a narcissist, teenager. How can I help them? Okay. So first of all, let's always slow our role when we're using the word narcissism and teenager. By definition, adolescence is a phase of life where the child is going through something called separation and individuation. Adolescents are tough, right? They are mean to their parents and often quite lovely with their peers. And there's a reason for that. The separation individuation process means that the peers are more of a meaningful social referent point. So they'll actually be lovely with their peers, listen to their problems, pick them up late at night, bring them soup when they're sick and scream at you if you even dare mention

emptying the dishwasher. And there's a common sort of therapist talk is that an adolescent is often going through a phase we call shitting the nest. Shitting the nest? Shitting the nest. And if they shit the nest, then it's a lot easier for everyone to say, get out and for the kid to leave like, this is gross. I don't want to be here. So all that mean behavior is sometimes part and parcel of shitting the nest. So we have to be able to figure out if it's that. Narcissism is a story that can be told beautifully backwards, but it's very difficult to tell forwards and in real time with an adolescent. For example, what I mean is show me a 35-year-old narcissist and I will show you someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who

is horrible as a teenager. I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35. Really, the frontal lobes are continuing to develop a lot of that kind of lack of social awareness, impulsivity, all that's sitting up here. That part does not fully cement and set until around 25, 26, 27 years old. Adolescents really, if you want to look at it developmentally, it doesn't matter that they can drive and vote and buy alcohol. It really is. It goes until about 25, 26.

That's when adulthood starts. So I'd say to people of narcissistic adolescents, white-knuckle this a bit. Have whatever limits you need in your household. Be realistic about them. Remember the concept of shitting the nest and put a pin in it for about eight years and then revisit. MS. So let's just kind of unpack this a little bit because I'm sure there's a ton of you that are listening right now that are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, but what if I am seeing narcissistic traits? Because one of the things that you have, okay, well, let me just stop right there because you just said you probably are.

What you're saying is that the very natural, normal and mentally healthy process of a teenager separating from their parents is for them to become more egotistical, more demonstrative, more selfish and to prioritize- Entitled. Entitled.

However, if you're seeing that and you are concerned and maybe you're concerned because you're in a family system where grandparents are narcissistic or you have an ex who is narcissistic. So you do have some concern. Is there something that you can model that helps to keep somebody on a adaptive personality track versus spinning into more of a maladaptive?

Or are you basically saying there's really not much you can do but white-knuckle yourself? If you wanna be sure, figure out how your kids are behaving with their peers. Because if they have healthy peer relationships that seem reciprocal, that seem mutual, if other adults are having good experience, if you're a friend with a parent of a kid that they hang out with and that parent's like, your kid's great, then this is definitely

the adolescent nonsense of shitting the nest, right? Because they're able to show up as solid people for other people. If however, they're behaving horribly across the board, mistreating peers, having problems in school, then you're much more likely to be dealing with narcissisms. That makes sense? That makes a lot of sense. And is there anything, if you're seeing that, that you can do or is this already just a bed that's made? It's a tough one at that point. I think that it is not getting into

a power struggle with them becomes crucial because if indeed you've got this difficult across the board, difficult with the teachers, difficult with you, difficult with peers, kind of kid, difficult in their part-time job, whatever, getting into a power struggle with them, you're going to lose it. You're not going to win because no one can win a power struggle with someone who's narcissistic and with an adolescent that's going to lose it. You're not going to win because no one can win a power struggle with someone who's narcissistic. And with an adolescent, that's going to be even more amped up because they don't feel a sense of power because they're still in your good graces and all of that. So don't get into a power struggle. Basically, don't let the dishwasher be the hill you die on because it's really not worth it. Where narcissism is in adolescence,

other bad behaviors are also likely to hang out, including things like substance use. What you really do want to watch for is actually keep more of an eye on is your kid safe, how is their mental health functioning in other areas. If you are able to encourage therapy, that kid's probably going to say no, it's worth a shot. Definitely figure out what it is that does speak to them and cultivate their interest in that. Because if there's something that they like, maybe it's music, maybe it's a form of sport, whatever it is, show some interest in what they do. Because we can get so caught up in the power struggle of you're going to empty the dishwasher if it's the last thing you do versus who's this kind of difficult kid of mine, but we get so caught

up in the difficult of it all. We don't, we don't pay attention to like, what do they like? So you might see them playing a video game, right? Instead of like, oh, these kids in their video games, it's, you never empty the dishwasher. All you do is play the video games. Like what's this game about? Like what, talk to me about, I'm just curious. Now, you probably get a lot of me, me, but you never know. Well, I think it gets in there. I think you pull a chair up and you just sit next to them. And you just sit by them while they're playing the video game. And even just doing that shows a level of interest. And so I love that advice. Now, the next question that I have is, I don't know, like it's a good question. Can a narcissist actually be legitimately in love with somebody?

Oh, I can see Dr. Romani's wheels already spinning. So we're gonna take a quick pause to hear a word from our sponsor. And she's gonna have that answer for you when we return. Stay with us. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins, and I'm here with the amazing Dr. Ramani Diversala. We are taking your questions about narcissism, and one of our listeners wants to know, is there any way for a narcissist to find true love with a partner? I mean, like a personality type that a narcissist could be with, where both people are happy?

So now we get into philosophy, right? What is love? Is there a universal definition? And the problem is, no, there's not. I think probably the most powerful thing people could do by their third date, I wish, you know how you go to the doctor, they make you sign the informed consent? I wish we had that for love. Say, put your piece of paper in front of someone, this my definition of love. Because their definition of love is very transactional. And they're not aware of what their definition of love is. Their definition of love is basically, I'm going to swallow you up whole. You're going to be for me. It's a very romantic,

passionate definition of love. What they're not good at is long-term companionate love. So this idea of true love with all the depth that's implied, the mutuality, the reciprocity, the better or worse, the standing at someone's side even when they get older or need care or need help or are starting to get more successful than you, all the things that throw a narcissistic person off. I would say the short answer to that question is probably not on the basis of what we consider healthy love to be. Theirs is a much, much more shallow, shallow definition. For them, love is very romantic, very passionate, very flash in the pan, very crush. That's what it is. It's not the deep, deep stuff. It's not give and take is what I've learned from you.

It's not only not give and take, it's not good times and bad. And it's also very status conscious and appearance conscious. This is why you see again, when a person who has been through a 30 year marriage with kids, then trades in for a 27 year old partner and they're 60. You know, based on everything that you've taught us and that I've learned from your work, when I read between the lines of this question, which I probably shouldn't, is there any way for a narcissist to find true love? I imagine somebody who is holding out hope that there could be a possibility. Or fear. Or fear. That the narcissist will go on and find true love with someone new. Cause that's the big fear of people who are left. So the narcissistic person, you're with someone, right? Yeah. Narcissistic person leaves, they find new supply

right away. Immediately. Right? Okay. And you're of course going through a real grief process, so you're struggling with it. The big fear is now they found their new person, are they going to change for the new person? Are they going to be better for the new person? Are they going to find true love for the new person? That's how I read that question. And the answer to that is no. I watched someone go through this a couple of years ago, had a very up and down narcissistic relationship with someone, went on for years, yada, yada, yada. And then they break up and inside of a few months, he meets someone new, soulmate, soulmate,

soulmate, you know what I mean? Bing, bing, bing, alarm signs. And they get engaged in like two months, right? And the person was still struggling, like was having trouble meeting people and, you know what you mean? Bing, bing, bing, alarm signs, and they get engaged in like two months. Right? And the person was still struggling, like was having trouble meeting people and was just sort of having a dark night at the soul. And this person seems like they moved on. And it was of little solace to this person who was sort of left that this is not, and there's no depth, this is all performative. For narcissistic people, love is performative. And this is where the social media has changed things, right? Because the performative love relationship is very much a staple of Instagram. Look how happy we are. Look how cute we are. We're van-lifing.

We're traveling. We're so great in love. My lovey bear lovey, never in my life could there be a hero like you. You are my love hero. And then these fools break up in three months. Nobody goes from love hero to broken up. Like this whole thing was a lie. So it's again, every therapist knows the more they gush about the relationship on social media, the more it's a train wreck. And so it's performative. Dr. Ramani, how do I deal with a narcissistic adult son who uses our grandchildren as leverage for the silent treatment, blame, and manipulation? So this is a very common dynamic, and I'm so glad someone's asking about this. So you have a narcissistic adult child, fully grown, obviously has gotten into a relationship, has kids, all of that. The grandchildren become the greatest leverage of all leverage on the planet. And this is

devastating for parents on multiple levels. Number one, because narcissism is a developmental state, many parents will say, what did I do wrong? Am I partly responsible for this? And it's particularly devastating if you did co-parent that child with a narcissist and you did your very best. You might've even been that co-parent who actually protected your kid, but couldn't get out of their relationship or they were having to spend time with the narcissistic co-parent, whatever it may be that you did what you could, but you could not outrun this thing. So that can be even more devastating. So there's a sense of complicity that parents feel that you don't see in any other form of narcissistic relationship, number one. Then they have kids and you love those grandchildren. And now your narcissistic son

recognizes that they've basically got you over a barrel. It's the ultimate tool of manipulation. With narcissistic people, the struggle is that it's very easy to create the monster by giving into them, right? They get used to it. And what we do is we have to ask ourselves from a radical acceptance standpoint. In fact, something I talk about in the book is something called a person's true North, right? That your true North is how I always tell people, don't engage with the narcissist. It's going to get you nowhere. Simple answers, disengage, disengage, disengage, right? But the concept of your true North is the one time you will take the fight, right? Whatever that might be. It might mean the work around you'll do. It might be the argument

you might have. It might be the tiger's cage you're willing to go into because it might be about you might be willing to take the fight for your kid or your grandkid. You might be willing to take the fight because somebody is saying something that's so noxious to you, it's racist or some form of bias or something like that. In this particular case, this grandparent has to assess the true north of their grandchildren because the fact is odds are that it's basically an extortionate setup, right? To see the grandchildren, they have to do the dance dictated by their son. And so the radical acceptance may very well be that there are times they may not always get to see these grandchildren and the grief that goes

with that is figuring out the true North. Maybe the birthday party is your everything. So that might mean it's almost like a negotiation. You're going to give in on certain things with this son if there's something you can do so you can be at the true north of the birthday party or the graduation or having them going on the vacation with them or not. So it becomes a constant calibration to where do I want to see these kids? Where am I willing to relent? Because he's forever going to have you over a barrel. So it's also if this person does they fully radically accept their son's behavior, they may still be trying to change their son's behavior. They may have hope for change. You're going to have to eradicate that. In many ways, their son has been brought down to nothing

more than the portal to those grandchildren. So instead of putting behavioral standards on the son, who is narcissistic, they have to figure out what the ritualistic dance they need to do is to go through the portal to see the grandkids. Gotcha. And so the radical acceptance there is really just understanding this is what it is. This is what it is. And I can hate the dance I have to do. I can hate the kind of hoops I have to jump through, but it's more important to me because I value a relationship with these grandkids and I understand this is the access point. Right. And it could very well be, we don't know this because they don't make it clear in the question. They may be talking to their son as though they think he's listening to them like a normal person would. A mistake a lot

of people make with narcissistic people is they actually try to appeal to some sensitivity in them. We love your children so much. We would do anything for them. Like we blah, blah, blah, save you the money on the babysitter, blah, blah, blah. We'll do anything. Can't you see how much we care about them? Da-da, da-da, da-da. We the babysitter, blah, blah, blah, we'll do anything. Can't you see how much we care about them? Dada, dada, dada, we've made trust from whatever the hell it is people are saying about the grandkids. They're not listening. They're not going to pay attention. All they see is that I have got the ultimate tool here to get what I need from these people. And if you have an adult narcissistic child, if I can only issue one warning, make sure your finances are in order and safe because an adult narcissistic child, it is not unusual for them to prey on older

parents, try to get their names on the note of a house, try to get power of attorney in a way they're going to abuse. Make sure that if you do have stuff to hand down, you work with a good attorney. It's hard to think of this way about your own child. But Mel, if I could tell you some of the stories I've seen with the way adult narcissistic children have completely plowed through their parents' money and really put their parents in a precarious spot. I'm not saying that's the case in this one, but you've got to be careful of all these angles. And if this son, for example, is at all trying to get into the family's money, in some ways it's almost becomes a pay to play, whatever you're paying to do, you know, to play, you've got to be aware of that. Well, I think if somebody's willing to use innocent kids

as human capital to manipulate adults to get what you want, that seems a lot more egregious than manipulating you to get your money. Yep. You know, I've seen this question a lot in the form of how do I deal with the fact that my adult child is now married to or engaged to somebody who's narcissistic and that new partner is turning them against us.

Yeah. And this feels like it's similar, but how do you counsel parents that recognize that this is actually what's happening? We had a great relationship with our adult child. Now they're in a relationship with somebody else. It feels like that person is turning our child against them. How do you counsel somebody in that situation? Is it the same thing? It's different, right? Because in the case of the narcissistic son, they're sort of a direct line to the son, right? They've known the son his whole life, you know, who knows what historically has happened. They may, you know, may very well be that they're sort of a direct line to the Sun, right? They've known the Sun his whole life, who knows what historically has happened. It may very well be that they're like, yeah, we dropped the ball

when he was little and now we've been trying to make amends ever since. And now that he's got kids and we want access to the kids, actually in some ways it's like, it's the spoiled child phenomenon. They're doing anything the Sun wants. That's their own kid. Now, if you have a kid that's yours and you have a great relationship with them into adulthood, your kid is not narcissistic, right? But they meet someone narcissistic. That's a very different situation because you know your kid has the apparatus, the solid apparatus of goodness, whatever that, at least to have a mutual and reciprocal relationship with you.

So the big mistake people will say, especially when your child is in love with someone and is about to get married and is in sort of the blissey state that you say, I'm worried that they're narcissistic is the biggest mistake you could make. You never want to do that. You want to try to illuminate the patterns without saying like, what he said was toxic or that wasn't okay, but rather dropping in the lines in the water like things like, hey, you okay? We're not hearing from you as much. Is everything okay now? You might hear them say like, gosh, what's wrong with you? I have my own life now. Say, no, no, no, I hear that. I completely understand that you want to keep feeling it out,

feeling it out. There's actually, we can take a page out of the playbook of what happens to people when family members recognize a family member is in a cult. Dr. Janja Lalich, she talks about doing something called breaking the shelf. What she means is that when you have a family member who goes into a cult, you can't say, yo, you're in a cult, because they're going to say, no, I'm not. This is my group of healing friends that want to self-develop together, right? And they're going to say, they told me you would say this. I knew it to hell with you. And the cult's going to want them to cut that pair off, right?

So what she says is, you need to do is you want to break the shelf. And what that means is, remind them of the life they had before the cult. So it's gentle conversations like, oh my gosh, you're not going to believe this. You remember how you love to surf? You know, I was, it's so weird. I was just driving down that, you know, the old street, that street. And you know, he, he made this, the surfboard shop so much bigger. Like how, how are you doing? Like, how's the surfing going? You're planting like you're not surfing anymore. Are you? Or we're getting ready for whatever, the ski trip and what you're just reminding them. Like I remember how much you wanted to write.

Like how's that going? Like have you been writing more or whatever you're writing, but you're trying to bring them back to themselves. And sometimes, so we know you're not even talking about the partner. You're talking about the them who is likely getting lost in this relationship. You might have a better chance of doing what Dr. Lodich calls breaking the shelf and letting them then be able to start to see like, okay, something's changing. It's not always a sure thing, but ideally you can then say, especially if you notice a difficult interaction, instead of saying,

that wasn't okay, you might want to say, hey, are you okay? I just saw that. I just wanted to check in. That's great. Because then you get the wheels turning. That's all you want to do is turn the wheels. Got it. Okay. This is a really juicy question. Okay. Even though it's really like not okay. It's sad. Yeah. Even though it's really like not okay, it's sad. Yeah. Dr. Romany, my dad is a perverted narcissist. I don't know what that means,

but is a perverted narcissist and has psychopathic traits. He has met a woman he is very interested in. This woman is in a higher tax bracket than him and has never married. And he has her wrapped around his finger. He's presented a version of himself to her that is not real and he's using the same methods he used on my mom. I feel like I can't let her get sucked into his lies, but is it my position to do so? It irks me so badly to see the mask he presents and it upsets me

that it took her less than a month to fall for his performance." Did this person call the father a psychopath? Yes. Okay. So let's use this question as a jumping off point on the difference between narcissism and psychopathy, right? I don't know if this person's father is psychopathic, we're just going to go on good faith, they believe they are. It's a difference. Okay? Even the most malignant narcissist is not going to be psychopathic. When we jump the rails into psychopathy, we're talking about someone who is cold, callous, calculating, deceitful, lacks any empathy, lacks remorse, is often superficially charming, can be very

intelligent, has an incredible capacity for running a hustle. These are your grifters, okay? These are people who are able to create very, very elaborate lives, live double lives, live parasitic lifestyles, go and destroy one person's life, move someplace else and leave no trace of any of that. Drawing someone into a new relationship very quickly where that person is falling under their control is very classically something that a psychopath is able to do. Because psychopathic people lack remorse, they can do far more harm to another person. In addition, psychopathic people don'torse, they can do far more harm to another person. In addition, psychopathic people don't have the insecurity and the anxiety we classically see in narcissism.

Narcissism is still a little bit more of a chaotic interior. Psychopathic people are just cold and callous. And so that seems to be what might be the case here. Now the way she's describing it is that this person was able to trick another person within a month. That's very classically either, yeah, it's more psychopathic than it is malignant narcissistic. And the question is, do you warn? Many psychopathic people can be dangerous, Mel. So I want to make sure this person is safe. I mean, listen, I don't know if you've ever remembered

the story, the really popular podcast from way back of Dirty John. Dirty John was a guy who, the same kind of grift, and it culminated quite tragically. He almost killed the woman he had twisted around. He almost killed her daughter. That's why I'm saying that these people are dangerous. And because if anyone gets in the way of their grift of their hustle, they will eradicate them. So assuming this woman is safe. Okay. So I'm just going to, okay, gigantic caveat. You are safe. Okay. I don't think the new woman's going to believe her. A month in is very, very fresh. This person is fully indoctrinated, being heavily love-bombed, right there, not going to believe this. And the psychopath has already gotten to the new partner and told the new partner, my daughter is jealous. I think she's kind of weirdly in love with me. He has crafted a whole story about the daughter.

So that makes the daughter look insane. All right? So when the daughter goes to new partner and says this, the odds are that the psychopathic father has already done his homework. This is a hard thing though, because if you value the truth, and if I take to heart everything that you taught us

in the previous two episodes that we've done with you recently about the fact that part of the biggest barriers to your own healing from somebody like this is a sense of hope that it's gonna change and the feeling of injustice. And to me, I would really wrestle with the fact that based on my values, I'd want to be like,

getting rid of this motherfucker. He's bad news, but on the other hand, how? But she can go up to her and say, I want you to know this. I don't know what he's told you. Ideally show up with documentation. This is who he really is. This is who he's really about. really is, this is who he's really about. Then she's done her God's work of the day. And when this new person doesn't believe it, then that's no longer her problem. Got it. And as long as you can do that safely. And that is something that you feel like doing, whether it's because you feel the need to get justice served on behalf of you and your mom or not is irrelevant. You might just honestly want to protect the person. Okay. Gosh, wow. This is a sad topic.

It's a very sad topic. How do you keep from getting like beaten down by this? It's not always easy. Like I do actually get sad quite a bit and I keep to myself. And I guess in some ways I live a very simple life. And I think there's a reason for that because I think otherwise it's a lot. I don't trust people as much. I mean, it's kind of a sad thing. That is sad, but I'm glad that you're putting it to use to help us. It's my pleasure.

I find the work is so, I've seen people help and that really matters. Hmm. Right. I've got rapid fire questions. My aging mother is a narcissist and I'm the one who has to take care of her. How can I make this time bearable? You have to keep orienting it to who you are. Many, many people will say, I cannot believe now that it's all coming to a close and it's falling on my shoulders. But people have to sometimes have to say like, no, I'm a compassionate person. This is an old person. I don't know what would happen to them otherwise. Really put yourself into that role of, I am showing up almost like a nurse of an abusive patient. They're prepared. They're going to yell.

They're going to scream. Do not expect gratitude. It's going to be a nightmare. Have therapy, have support, make sure you have meaningful pursuits outside of this caregiving. But you almost have to go into an automaton state, but also connected to the human being I am is compassionate, good, and empathic. And this is an old person who needs to be cared for. I can't stand her, but I'll be damned if I let this woman leave me like I'm not a compassionate person. Ooh, do it for yourself. Do it for yourself. My father is a narcissist, have not talked to him in five years. I would like to reopen

the door, but I'm terrified I'm going to get hurt. How do I protect myself? Well, he's going to hurt you. So what you have to ask yourself, what's your agenda after five years? What are you hoping for? If you what you have to ask yourself, what's your agenda after five years? What are you hoping for? If you think that in five years, because what's happened to this person in five years, Mel, they've healed. Or maybe not. There's two levels. There is the deeper soul healing that may have happened, right? But I want you to think of it as somebody's had a massive surgery that was going to be difficult to heal from. And when they're in the midst of the acuity of it, they're like, I am never going to be able

to walk again. And then five years in, they're like, I'm going, I'm running up the stairs. And so now she's running up the stairs. But what might still be happening is that internally, there's still now when you're running up the stairs again, euphoric recall, we forget what it's like. This is why this ICL list becomes a living document that matters. Remind everybody of the ick list. The ick list is a list you make of all the terrible things that are being said and done in that relationship. Everything from ruined my wedding to lied to me about who my parent was to when I asked

for a loan that would have made a difference, didn't give it to me and I'm still paying off the extortionate loan I got to insulted my children's weight, like write it all, cheat it on me with my best friend, whatever's on your list, write it down. When you think possibility of changes or you need to look at that and say, why would I even interact with this person? But in this case, after five years, some people may say, I know this person's limitations. So you have to ask yourself, if this person comes at me again, will I be able to withstand this or will this take a toll on me?

That's a question only they can answer. Some work I tend to do in therapy with clients is we play it out as a role play. Dr. Ramani, compassionate. I'm like, don't be a dumb motherfucker. This guy has not changed at all. And you're walking into the tiger's cage. Please, please. Caution, caution, caution. At least read Dr. Ramani's bestselling book, It's Not You. Listen to her podcast, watch her YouTube channel. Your advice is transformative and the message is clear. They are not changing, but you can. We love you. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Mel. You know, I kind of ended on a joke, but your message is actually really empowering. Because when you understand what you're dealing with, you can take the steps to protect yourself and still act aligned with your values. But you have to accept what you're dealing with and give up hope that it's changing

and walk into it with that understanding. And one more thing before I leave, I wanna make sure that you hear from me in case nobody else tells you Because if you're surrounded by narcissists, nobody has That I believe in you I know dr Romany believes in you too and I love you and I believe in your ability to take everything you're learning and

Use it to empower yourself to create a better life. I'll talk to you a few days I'll talk to you in a few days. Let's do this. Let me just get my hair up here because it'll flop down. All right. You want to start? Okay. All right. Dr. Romany.

Oh, no. Go. You take that. Go on. Get it. Get it. Get it. I felt like I had like stole.

I was like shoplifted. Oh, I'm sorry. What do I do with this? You do whatever you want. We're going to wait and it's no big deal. You take your time. Wait, what am I doing? Oh, oh'm sorry. What do I do with this? You do whatever you want. We're going to wait and it's no big deal. You take your time. What am I doing? Oh, oh my God.

Okay. You ready? Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Thank you. I was about to start clapping too. Oh, and one more thing.

And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good.

I'll see you in the next episode.