The Mel Robbins Podcast - Dr. Gina Poe: How to Get Better Sleep and Boost Your Learning, Memory and Energy

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

Are you getting the sleep you need? Do you wish you could improve your sleep, but you’re not sure how? Dr. Gina Poe is an accomplished researcher and trained neuroscientist with a PhD in basic slee...p. Currently a professor at UCLA, Dr. Poe has been researching the functions of sleep for over 30 years and has authored nearly 200 publications on the topic. Today, Dr. Poe is here to answer your questions like, Why do you sleep? What is your brain doing as you sleep? What is REM sleep? What are sleep cycles? What are circadian rhythms? And perhaps most importantly, you’ll get 5 research-backed recommendations from Dr. Poe on how anyone, including you, can not only improve their sleep but also get a “perfect” night’s sleep, as defined by a neuroscientist. In this conversation, Dr. Poe discusses topics such as:What is the “perfect night's sleep”?How long are you supposed to sleep every night?What is a sleep cycle, and why should you care?What is N1 sleep?What is N2 sleep?What is N3 sleep?What is paradoxical sleep and how can you tell someone’s in that state?What REM sleep really is and how often we must be in it.The physiological and neurological difference between being awake and asleep.What a neurotransmitter is and how it changes composition when asleep.What the functions of our brain’s two hemispheres are.How sleep cleans the brain.The connection between sleep and neuroplasticity.The link between sleep and brain health.The scientific reason why they call it “falling” asleep.How sleep directly affects longevity and vitality.Why you don’t remember your dreams.How sleep impacts how we learn during the day.What happens to your body and brain when you close your eyes at night.The one phase of sleep you cannot miss.A neuroscientist's top 5 recommendations for better sleep.What the purpose of vasodilation is.Which hours of sleep are absolutely critical for memory processing.How many hours of sleep you really need for optimal functioning.Why a consistent bedtime is the start of the best sleep of your life.  Follow Dr. Poe: Instagram: instagram.com/poe.gina Webpage: bri.ucla.edu/people/gina-poe-ph-d/Watch the episodes on YouTube: https://bit.ly/45OWCNrMy book! ‘High 5 Habit’, here: https://a.co/d/g1DQ8Pt Follow me: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3QfG8bbThe Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/49bg4GPLinkedin: https://bit.ly/46Mh0QBTikTok:  https://bit.ly/46Kpw2v Sign up for my newsletter:  https://bit.ly/46PVnPs  Want more resources? Go to my podcast page at melrobbins.com/podcast. Disclaimer

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Today, you and I are going to learn all about the science of sleep from one of the world's leading neuroscientist and researchers. I'm talking about UCLA's Dr. Gina Poe, and before I jump into her credentials and everything that we're going to cover, I just want to thank you. Thank you for being here. Because when you're here with me, I know it's not about me. It's about you. You listen because you want to learn. You want to feel inspired. And you're investing time in yourself right now. And I don't take that lightly because I love you for being interested in improving your life. I mean, that's why I'm here too. So I'm proud of both of us. And today, we have a private class with one of the most renowned experts and researchers
Starting point is 00:00:49 in the science of sleep. Dr. Gina Poe is here. Now Dr. Poe is a neuroscientist at UCLA. She's been studying the science of sleep for 30 years. Her lab has done pioneering research right now. She's looking to the connection of sleep and healing mental illness. Dr. Poe is going to cover the fundamentals today and questions like, why do you sleep? What is your brain doing as you sleep? What is REM sleep? What are sleep cycles
Starting point is 00:01:15 and how many do you need? If you've been hearing about circadian rhythms, she's going to break it down and explain what they are and why they matter, and you're going to leave with five recommendations from Dr. Pose extraordinary research, recommendations on how anyone, including you, can improve your sleep. And if you're sitting there thinking, ugh, mal, sleep, this sounds like a snooze fast. I think I'm going to skip this one. Don't you dare. Because I thought I knew what I needed to know about sleep too. And then I started preparing for this episode. I learned so many things that I didn't know
Starting point is 00:01:50 but you and I need to know we should know. I'm talking profound, profound information about how sleep is critical for your memory, for neuroplasticity, for locking in new habits, for creativity, for healing, for so much more. This is one of the fundamental pillars for better health and for a better life. And so that's why I'm excited. That's why I'm glad that you're here. Classes in session, sleep is on the docket. And guess what? The amazing Dr. Gina Poe, she's not only smart. She's super in demand. This woman is hot off a plane because she's been lecturing at conferences all over Europe, but she is here right now for you and for me. So Dr. Gina Poe, I am so excited to be here with you.
Starting point is 00:02:33 Thanks so much for having me. I am so thrilled that you're here and I want to start off with what might sound like a really stupid question. I'm sure not. Can you explain why we sleep and why it's so important? It's a great question, actually, not stupid at all. It's something that we've been looking for an answer to for the last probably 70 years.
Starting point is 00:02:58 And it's actually longer than that. Wow. There's so many things happening during sleep that can't happen at any other time. Sleep is great for the immune system. It's great for cognition. It's great for the emotional system. It's great for growth and repair.
Starting point is 00:03:17 What is the difference between being awake and being asleep? Is there a physiological or neurological difference between the two? Yes, huge actually. So when we fall unconscious and into sleep, neurotransmitters, chemicals in our brain completely change though their composition. So there's a set of neurotransmitters that are associated with wakefulness and being able to intend to the environment, have conversations, think thoughts, and they just completely switch when we fall asleep so that one main one,
Starting point is 00:03:52 which is called acetylcholine, which is really important for attention to the environment, switches off. And that's very characteristic of non-rem sleep, which is the first date we normally go into when we fall asleep. So acetylcholine turns off in animals that sleep unahemospherically. Oh, okay, that's a big word. What do you know hemispher?
Starting point is 00:04:13 I can't even see the thing. How about me? The thing's very history. Yes, unahemospherically means one hemisphere at a time. We have two hemispheres in our brain, and each hemisphere controls half of our body. And so the right hemisphere controls the left half of our body, and so one hemisphere of the brain is asleep, and the other hemisphere is awake.
Starting point is 00:04:35 And the hemisphere that's asleep switches off the attention, acetylcholine, neurotransmitter, the chemical. Your brain is doing all kinds of essential things that can't be done during wakefulness. It's another quote unquote work time. It feels quite different than waking work. Then you can justify, hey, I need this. I'm gonna feel better.
Starting point is 00:04:57 I'm gonna be able to tackle my next day better. You know, I don't think I've ever thought about that it goes way beyond rest because what we're about to learn today is there's all these really critical health and mind like functions that can only happen when part of the brain is in sleep mode. Is that right? Am I explaining this correctly? Absolutely, yeah.
Starting point is 00:05:21 Holy cow. So, why don't we start with, based on your 30 years of research, right? What does a perfect night's sleep look like just so that we have a benchmark for what would be ideal? I think if you just look at a 10-year-old you'll get what the perfect night's sleep looks like they sleep beautifully. They have a beautiful homeostatic which means it responds to what you're doing during the day, response, and how long you've been awake. They have a beautiful circadian, which means their body knows what time of day it is and
Starting point is 00:05:55 what time they should go to sleep and what time they should wake up. And so the 10-year-old's sleep is perfect. Don't ever wake up a 10-year year old if you can possibly help it. They're doing a lot of really important things. After that, our sleep changes during our teenage years, and we need just as much sleep as a 10 year old, which is about 10 hours or 8 to 10 hours for sure, but teenagers circadian rhythms change a little bit so that they fall asleep a little later and want to wake up a little later. So it's also a beautiful night sleep if they are calm and not too engaged with social media at the wrong times.
Starting point is 00:06:40 But anyway that's a great night sleep. Our sleep is actually pretty great until we're about 40 or 50 years old and then varying, depending on the individual, your sleep can start to become less efficient. What does a perfect night sleep look like in terms of how long you sleep, the various phases of sleep. Right. Okay, so the perfect night's sleep for health as an adult is something around seven and a half, eight hours plus or minus an hour. Okay. You should be awakened by the sunlight essentially, so that's something that resets our clock
Starting point is 00:07:23 every day. So you kind of work back from there, the you need to wake in to get at least seven and a half eight hours of sleep a night. Different people need different amounts of sleep. Some people need more like nine. Some people are fine with six for a while. How do you know? You just have to know from your own body. Some people, if they get six hours of sleep, they know immediately when they wake up and going throughout the day, it wasn't enough.
Starting point is 00:07:51 And so your body will tell you. And other people wake up at six hours and they're fine. And one way to know is how sleepy you feel during the day. Okay. You already said one takeaway that I want to make sure that you listen and got from us, which is you start with the time that you want to wake up. And then you roll the clock backwards. And you're basically saying that it's seven to eight hours, give or take an hour. Yeah. So you roll the clock backwards probably seven to nine hours. Yeah. And that's when you need to fall asleep. That's right. And what happens when you fall asleep, the cycles that we go through and physiologically,
Starting point is 00:08:30 neurologically, what's going on and why does this matter? The very first stage is, of course, dosing. And we don't really know when we're dosing except that, you know, we sort of come conscious once in a while and say, oh, wow, okay, what happened in the last couple of minutes? I don't know. Because our memory starts not recording what we've been doing. For example, if you're reading a book and you fall asleep reading the book, you won't remember the last two minutes
Starting point is 00:08:57 of reading, or if you're listening to a podcast, you won't remember the last few minutes of the podcast before you actually fall asleep. Or if I was talking to my husband and next thing, you know, he's snoring. Right. He does it around the last minute and a half of what I said. That's exactly. Exactly.
Starting point is 00:09:11 So there's that dozing period which I rather like. I love that sort of, you kind of drift from your mind spinning to all the sudden, almost like you're floating in a pool. Right. That only lasts two minutes. Stage one is variable. It's about two to five minutes, something like that. Okay.
Starting point is 00:09:32 And you need that sort of stage one of dozing to get into stage two. What happened next? Then stage two is really an exciting stage. So between stage one and stage two, there's something called hypnagogic hallucinations, which I've got even a try. stage. So between stage one and stage two there's something called hypnagogic hallucinations, which I've got even a try. Hypnagogic hallucinations. Helucinations. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:09:51 Okay. It's a brain losing hold of reality and all kinds of imaginary imagination things happen. For example, it can be as boring as feeling like you're falling off a step, because not all of parts of your brain are asleep at the same time as you've kind of drift into it. And so you feel the muscles relaxing and part of your brain says, I'm falling and and the hallucination is incorporated into that feeling of falling.. So you think you're falling off a step. Wait, is that why they call it falling asleep? That makes so much sense. And I have had that experience before,
Starting point is 00:10:34 where I do that dozing. My favorite part, you can drift off into the pillow, but then I every night have like a jerking sensation. And it is like falling. It's almost like you're moving into the phase where your body is clumsily trying to turn your muscles off so you can drift into the deeper one. That's pretty cool.
Starting point is 00:10:55 Now I know why I do that. Or it can be as horrifying as feeling like there's a monster jumping on your chest. And it can be very, very disturbing as well if you wake up from it. So, there are pretty vivid hallucinations. Almost like the dreams we have in REM sleep, only you don't have the atonia, which is all your muscles being inhibited to prevent you from acting out the dreams. So, oftentimes people, if they have a vivid hallucination, you from acting out the dream. So oftentimes people, if they have a vivid hallucination,
Starting point is 00:11:30 that's scary, you can wake up from that and then feel like, oh, what just happened, you know, was there a monster in my room really? Nightmares comes from that idea, just the hallucinations, the weird hallucinations. And this is as your brain is sort of trying to drop itself into a deeper state of sleep. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. And most people, in fact, don't wake up from that end to it's called end one is dosing end two is that state of sleep, which has pretty vivid dreams kind of, but they're not long story-like dreams like we have in REM sleep, but we'll get to that in a minute. So then from N2, which our brain is very active, we go into N3, which is also a time of activity, but it's really synchronous activity, like waves of activity going through our brain, and it's disconnected in time one wave from another. So consciousness can't be maintained. And if you
Starting point is 00:12:25 wake someone up out of N3, sleep, slow-wave sleep, and ask them what they were dreaming, they will not report having dreamed anything. It will be, you know, a blank slate. And it's actually pretty hard to wake someone up out of that state. It's called the deep sleep. And what's the purpose? You use the word wave. Like what is what is actually happening in your body? Yeah, when you're in that third phase and the wave is yeah, yeah, so that's A time when we know that our brain is cleaning itself actually what? Yes Cleaning itself. It's cleaning itself like a All the junk that builds up during the daytime when we're awake and alert.
Starting point is 00:13:05 What kind of junk build up? Well, proteins get unfolded and things break down, energy is used, all of that gets restored in that deep state of sleep. So, what would happen if you didn't get that deep stage of sleep in the wave, the cleaning wave? I'm seeing like somebody coming in after a big party and cleaning up all the time. That's right.
Starting point is 00:13:26 It's like this wave comes through your brain. It's like a wave cleansing the brain. Yes, there's one per second actually. And it sweeps from front to back. And it just pushes all the junk into your cerebral spinal fluid and out into your... Is that why my back hurts? I don't know. I don't? No, I don't think so, but yeah.
Starting point is 00:13:50 That's a good question. Yeah, so if you don't get it, you actually don't get a chance to clean your brain like that. So you really need it. And that's the sleep you get most at least in the first half of the night after you fall asleep. So you go from N1 to N2 to N3, N3 lasts, you know, 20 to 30 minutes or so, and then you
Starting point is 00:14:13 go back into, into briefly and then into REM sleep. How is that different than the wave? It's very different. It's actually also called paradoxical sleep, because if you look at brain activity, it looks just like someone's awake. Really? Why? Thoughts are going through and Dreams are happening. It's really strong imagery in your dreams and if you wake someone up out of that state of REM sleep, they will always report a dream, you know, 90% of the time, even people who, if you ask,
Starting point is 00:14:47 say, oh, I never dream or I never remember my dreams, if you wake them up out of that stage, they'll remember. I think the reason why people don't remember their dreams is because they are solidly asleep and don't wake up out of that state. So, don't worry, you are dreaming. What is your brain doing when you're dreaming? Yeah, in that ram stage. Yeah, you are. Well, first of all, you're creating dreams. It's also important for the process of creativity and for changing your mind. It's actually an extremely plastic state. So it's paradoxical because electrically, it looks like wakefulness, but chemically it's very different. So two of the neurochemicals
Starting point is 00:15:32 that are off during dream state are two neurochemicals that keep you attuned to things that are novel and they're coming in from the outside world and help you learn from things in the outside world. And those are neuropinephffren and Saratonein. They are off during REM sleep, so you instead you're attuned internally to internal thoughts and internal images. And so you can actually build your own schema from the things that you learned during the day that are now registered in your brain. It's not a time for new learning,
Starting point is 00:16:05 it's not a time for listening to new podcasts and getting that information in. It's a time to assimilate the things that you've already learned into coherent patterns that make sense. I wanna see if I can give that back to you to make sure that you listening are tracking because I just had a big like, whoa,
Starting point is 00:16:27 aha, kind of moment here. So you said that the first four hours of sleep are critical for creativity. And I've also, I think, read in your research that it's also critical for the making of memories. Yeah, for the assimilation of memories. What is the difference between making and assimilation of memories?
Starting point is 00:16:51 So making memories requires us to pay attention to things in the outside world and put them together. And assimilating means you've taken those things from the outside world. And now you're putting them together into packets we call schema, which are related pieces of information. And it's good for creativity because these new pieces of information get assimilated into different schema in ways that we can't do when we're awake. Okay, I think I'm actually getting this. Okay.
Starting point is 00:17:25 You're basically saying that neuroplasticity isn't happening when we're learning. The neuroplasticity is happening when we're sleeping. Yeah. There's that saying in the exercise world that your abs are made in the kitchen, not in the gym, because of food being medicine. And what you're basically saying is habits are made in your bedroom while you're sleeping Not while you're out in your life living because that's when your brain locks in all the learning that you did today. That's so freaking cool. Mm-hmm. The chemicals in your brain which are
Starting point is 00:17:58 serotonin and neuroeperafford or whatever you say. Nourpinephrine neurodrenaline. If youdrenaline. That's easier for me to say it. Neurodrenaline. They're not present. And because those two chemicals aren't present during this sleep cycle, your brain is locking in these new patterns and habits and skills and memories. You're calling them from an academic standpoint, like each one of these memories or this new skill or this new neurotransmitter that gets created is a schema.
Starting point is 00:18:28 Yeah, it goes into a schema. Schema are things like, you know, what is Christmas? There's a whole host of things that are associated with Christmas or, you know, what does summer mean? And there's a whole host of things. And that's a schema into which a lot of things get built. Yeah. So it's almost like our own internal search architecture.
Starting point is 00:18:49 Yeah. I think about it like Legos. Yeah. Summer Lego box. It's a whole lot of little Lego cubes in it. Of different colors, and you can create different things. This is really cool. And so neuroplasticity and habit formation, one of the huge takeaways that you've already given us is that
Starting point is 00:19:10 sleep is critical for that to happen. Like you have to have sleep in order to have that formation happening in your brain. That's right. Because during the day you can collect these Lego pieces, but you don't assemble them into a coherent schema. Wow. Yeah. I think if you think of sleep as laziness or a time when you're not doing anything, then it's harder to justify in our workaholic world that, you know, that time we spend asleep. But instead, if you know that your brain is doing all kinds of essential things that can't be done during wakefulness, it's another quote unquote work time, even though it's a pleasant
Starting point is 00:19:53 work time and it feels quite different than waking work. Then you can justify, hey, I need this. I'm going to feel better. I'm going to be able to tackle my next day better. And so you can schedule it in just like you schedule everything else into your life. That makes so much sense. Schedule it into your life because it matters. I think this is so cool.
Starting point is 00:20:16 And you know what else I think is cool, Dr. Poe? You've done a really awesome job of explaining what's happening. I get a sense, don't you, as you're listening to Dr. Poe, that our brains are working so hard while we're sleeping, and there's so many important things happening in that cleaning wave that comes through like a zamboni. That's pretty cool. And I bet as you're listening to Dr. Poe, explain all this to you, that you're starting to feel motivated and inspired to take your sleep more seriously. I know I am, but there's still so much to learn. So let's take a quick pause for a word from our sponsors, and when we come back, let's go even
Starting point is 00:20:53 deeper. What is REM sleep? What are sleep cycles? And how many do you need in order to wake up and feel refreshed? Plus, we're going to cover exciting new developments in the connection between better sleep and healing. So don't go anywhere because Dr. Po and I will be waiting for you after a short word from our sponsors. Stay with us. Hey, welcome back. It's your friend Mel.
Starting point is 00:21:19 I'm so glad you're still here with me and Dr. Poe and learning about the science of sleep, it's not as newsfest as it. It's kind of cool. I think so too. It's also cool how it's helping your memory and neuroplasticity and your energy. And so now that you and I have the fundamentals and we kind of understand why this matters so much, Dr. Poe, how about we go deeper into the depths and mechanics of how sleep is happening in our brains and the function of it, like REM sleep, circadian rhythm. What do we need to know about sleep
Starting point is 00:21:53 cycles? So, Dr. Po, let's start with sleep cycles because I read that sleep cycles last, I think about 90 minutes. Yeah. What does that even mean? What is a sleep cycle and why do they matter? Yeah, on average, it's 90 minutes, and that's when you go from N1 to N2 to N3 to N2 to REM. And that whole process takes on average in us about 90 minutes. In other animals, it's shorter or longer. We don't know why it takes the amount of time it does, but it seems to be important that it happens in the order that it happens
Starting point is 00:22:29 because if you disturb that order, if you get rid of one element of it, the whole process does not work nearly as efficiently or at all. So, for example, if you just eliminate the REM sleep part, you can't consolidate your memories and put them together. If you eliminate the deep, slow-wave sleep part, the N3 state, the cleaning part, you will wake up with a junky brain and not be as efficient and able to handle the day. Well, that kind of makes sense because if you haven't brought the zamboni into your brain, clean out all the junk, then you're not working with a clear palette when it comes to locking in the things that are new. That's right.
Starting point is 00:23:10 Okay, that is so helpful to understand that your brain is working while you're sleeping. And here's what I wanna do now. I wanna clarify something, a few minutes ago. When you were talking about like N1 and N2, you casually mentioned that the N1, the N2, all the stuff that that's the sleep that you get in the first half of the night.
Starting point is 00:23:28 And I was taking notes, and I know as you were listening to Dr. Poe, you caught onto that too, didn't you? You've been waiting for, okay, well, that's the first half, what's the second half? And so if I'm locking in memories and cleaning out all the junk in my brain with that zamboni during the first half of the night, Dr. Poe, what the heck is happening
Starting point is 00:23:43 in the second half of the night as we're sleeping? Yeah, in the first half of the night, Dr. Po, what the heck is happening in the second half of the night as we're sleeping? Yeah. In the first half of the night, after you fall asleep, thoughts are going through and dreams are happening. It's really strong imagery in your dreams for kind of locking in and sealing the things that you learned during the day. But the second half of the night, or REM sleep more like every REM cycle, is more for
Starting point is 00:24:10 building new schema and baking new connections and changing your mind and resolving the emotional aspects of your memory. So how many sleep cycles do we do in a night? About five, five would be ideal. Okay. The first sleep cycle is a little longer than 90 minutes. Probably because that N3 state is a little longer and you don't have as much of it in the later part of the last half of the night. You don't have nearly as much N3 sleep. So if you miss the first half of the night, you'll miss most of that N3 sleep, which is the cleaning stage. So you don't want to miss that first half.
Starting point is 00:24:50 No, I definitely don't want to miss that first half. And did you hear that from Dr. Poe that you can't cheat your sleep, that your body knows when you go to bed late and when you do, you miss out on all the cleaning and the memory assimilation that your brain needs to wake up refreshed and be able to do its best to help you through your day. So I just wanted to make sure you got that because I think that's important. And Dr. Poe, now that you covered the first half of sleep, tell us, what is the purpose of the second half of sleep?
Starting point is 00:25:21 The second half is for, I like to think that it's more creative. It's creative part. It's emotional resolution and creative building of new new schema. So yeah, so the first half of the night is let's do a little correction. It's more for kind of locking in and sealing the things that you learned during the day, but the second half of the night or REM sleep more like every REM cycle is more for building new schema and making new connections and changing your mind and resolving the emotional changing your mind and resolving the emotional aspects of your memory. So, for example, if you remember a painful event, whether it's emotionally painful or physically painful, that happened a year ago or 10 years ago, you will want to remember that because it's adaptive and it's good to have those memories, but you won't want to recall when you're remembering
Starting point is 00:26:23 the event, the actual pain. You don't want to feel the pain again, either emotional pain or physical pain. That's not adaptive. You don't need that part of it. And so in our research right now that we're doing in collaboration with a few other laboratories, we're discovering that it is that REM sleep period, specifically the REM sleep period, and you get much more of it in the second half of the night, that helps to separate out the novelty and the immediacy and the physical reality of the emotions of those memories from the facts that you can recall for the rest of your life. And that's what happens normally, but people who have insomnia and they don't have a good quality of REM sleep,
Starting point is 00:27:14 their norpeneffin or noradalin is too active because they're too anxious while they sleep, then they don't have that distancing from the immediacy and the saliency and the sense that it just happened today. So that's what we're looking into. That's really profound and exciting because if you think about it, I would imagine it's also applicable to somebody that has a lot of trauma. Yeah. It is somebody that has a lot of chronic pain, that all of that is a very real, lived, stored experience in your body.
Starting point is 00:27:56 Yeah. And if your brain is not able to get that seven to nine hours of sleep where it can do all of this functioning for a health and a mindset and neuroplac, I mean, I think the implications of that, because what you're basically saying is that having good sleep habits and consistent sleep habits actually can help you heal.
Starting point is 00:28:23 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Not only can it help you, but it's necessary. It's necessary to heal. It's necessary to heal. Dr. Po, thank you for pouring so much into us already. And I bet as you're listening to Dr. Po, you're probably saying the same thing that I'm saying to myself, I never knew that. And it's certainly making me feel more motivated to prioritize this.
Starting point is 00:28:43 And that brings us to what we're going to cover next. Dr. Poe has five recommendations based on her 30 years of research that will help you get better sleep. It'll help you wake up refreshed. It'll help all that amazing stuff that needs to happen, happen. And one of those recommendations that she's going to talk about is getting light
Starting point is 00:29:00 into your eyes first thing in the morning. So when we return, we are jumping right into the topic of circadian rhythms. What are they? And how can you use them to get a great night's sleep? And I bet you're also still curious about Dr. Poe's sleep routine. I mean, what does the world's leading researcher
Starting point is 00:29:19 on sleep do every night before bed? The answer may surprise you. It certainly surprised me. So stay with us. We'll be waiting for you after a short word from our sponsors. So don't go anywhere. I'm going to be a part of it.
Starting point is 00:29:38 Hey, thank you for still being here with me and Dr. Poe and investing the time in yourself as you listen to this episode today, because as you're learning how you can use the science of sleep to sleep better and feel better, you're getting smarter because of it. And Dr. Poe has five recommendations on how anyone, including you, can improve your sleep and one of them is understanding your circadian rhythm. So Dr. Poe, can you explain what the circadian rhythm is? So every cell in our body has a clock in it. And these clocks are aligned by a master clock in our brain called the superchiasmatic nucleus
Starting point is 00:30:16 SCN for short. And that nucleus is reset every day by light coming in through our eyes. And reset every day by light coming in through our eyes. And is our clock running on a 24 hour cycle? Roughly, roughly. And that's why it needs to be reset every day because everybody's clock is a little different. Bright light in the morning tells you time zero. Oh, so when you wake up in the morning, whether it's raining or it's cloudy
Starting point is 00:30:43 or it's a bright sunny day, that is the clock hits zero in terms of your brain going, okay, the day has started. Right. So you really do need to control your light exposure to make sure your timekeeper sets it to the world that you need it to be. So if you were to use this research around circadian rhythms to improve your sleep, how would I go about figuring out what's the first thing I need to do in the morning to reset my clock to start training myself to get a better night's sleep? Yeah, if you want to reset your clock so that you're up to say it's six in the morning or
Starting point is 00:31:20 whenever the sun comes up, get outside and expose yourself to that sun, eat your breakfast, and then do the same with lunch and do the same with dinner. Don't expose yourself to bright light at night, especially blue light. If you expose yourself to a lot of the strong blue light at night, then the circadian system will say, wait a minute, is it morning time? I guess it's morning time and we'll shift you forward. Did everybody hear that? So there are some very free and specific steps there, which is gay, some bright light exposure, and I take it even a cloudy or rainy day,
Starting point is 00:31:54 it's going to suffice. So much brighter than indoor light. Okay, and how long? It doesn't even take that long. You know, 20 minutes is plenty of time. And if you can be exercising during that time, all the better. So get out and walk. If I can only get out for two minutes, would it make a difference? Two minutes make a difference. Yeah, makes a difference.
Starting point is 00:32:12 Okay. And then you also heard everybody that based on the exact same research and principles, staring at your phone, your computer screen, your television, for like in the evening, is a big no-no in like you've got the blue light block. Right? Because it is signaling to your brain that it's like not time to go to bed. Right. Which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it says it's morning. I should be awake. Which is why you're screwing yourself up with this. Yeah. And why you're getting a bad night's sleep. Who knew sleeping was so complicated. Yeah, and I love that you're elevating the fact that this isn't about getting rest.
Starting point is 00:32:51 This is about your brain health and your overall health and your body functioning. And you being able to live a better life, we have a circadian rhythm for a reason. Because our body functions better when you track to morning light and you start like getting yourself ready to go to sleep again when the sun sets. Yeah. One of the things that I found really interesting in your research is the of a consistent bedtime and a growth hormone that gets released. And why is that connected to a consistent bedtime? Right. Well, growth hormone is the thing that helps you repair
Starting point is 00:33:36 your muscles, build proteins, involved in consolidating your memories and just rebuilding damaged parts of your body. That gets released in little spirts, if anything, all day long and while you're awake. But when you go to sleep and your circadian system is aligned, in other words, you're going to sleep at the right time relative to your clock, which means that melatonin is being released. Melatonin and growth hormone together gets the release of growth hormone to be 10 times higher than it is when you're awake. So it's a big spurt of growth hormone that can do things that little spurt can't do.
Starting point is 00:34:22 What does a growth hormone do? Growth hormone helps you build proteins. All those amino acids that you eat during the day needs to be built into proteins and proteins that get broken down during the day can get built back up during sleep. And it's really only sleep if you delay sleep so that it's past the time when your melatonin surge is going, then
Starting point is 00:34:47 the growth hormone surge can't be nearly as big. You know what question I'm about, just. I mean, does melatonin supplement help spike that? Is that a way or not really? We don't know him, actually. We don't know, but I doubt it because it's not just melatonin. There's a lot of other things that are happening simultaneously with that melatonin. And it signals other parts of your body. The other thing about melatonin supplements is that
Starting point is 00:35:17 they're not regulated by the FDA. So in any one melatonin supplement, there may be zero melatonin or there might be 10 times what you need. Anyway, those can can actually help all of the processes that happen normally in the first few hours of sleep. I start to see how now the importance of a consistent bedtime. And that's even more important it seems than the quality or the length of the sleep. When our three kids were little, they had a bed night routine. Same bedtime, the same routine,
Starting point is 00:35:53 we're winding down, we're picking up the toys, we're saying goodnight, we're going up for the bath, we're reading the bedtime story, you're in your pajamas, you have the little song or prayer, whatever, the kiss on the forehead, turn off the light, and it was this intentional pattern that was training our kids. It's time to wind down and sleep. And it sounds like that's exactly what we need as adults. We need the same thing as adults. Exactly, you've put it really well. And in fact, you mentioned a bath.
Starting point is 00:36:28 Yes, I take one every night. Yeah, it really helps you sleep better. Why? It's thought to be because you are warming, you're periphery, and vasodilating your hands and feet, because there's ice and warm feet. That's why I'm when we say to Chris. Chris, I'm going to go visit dial-ate.
Starting point is 00:36:47 My hands and feet in a hot bath, honey. Right, yes. And visa dilation is good because what that does is it then helps cool your core, which is something that happens as you fall asleep. The core of your body cools by half a degree, something like that. And people get the best night sleep if they can have warm hands and feet
Starting point is 00:37:12 out there, exposed to the air, helping to cool your core. So that's great. Also, to have a great night sleep, exercise during the day. Our bodies are made to exercise. They are made to move. And if we get a good time of exercise where our blood is racing and our hearts are pounding and our breathing is deep, then for some reason, and we don't know
Starting point is 00:37:37 exactly why it might be due to adenosine buildup or needing growth hormone and the signals your body gives you says we need to repair ourselves. It gives you a really wonderful night's sleep. So those two things are beautiful. A bath and exercise. You're in here and bright light in the morning and a consistent bedtime. Those four things that you are giving everybody for free based on decades and decades of research. And not too much caffeine too late. Oh yeah, that's right. That's number five, not too much caffeine, everybody.
Starting point is 00:38:09 Thank you for explaining that, Dr. Poe. And one of the things that I love, as I listened to you, is I'm realizing, you're designed to sleep well. Like this is part of your hard wiring, your natural intelligence, your DNA, you run on a circadian rhythm, and sleep is a critical function. So this is something that we can all learn how to do better. Right. So you're one of the most renowned sleep researchers in the world.
Starting point is 00:38:36 What is your sleep routine? What time do you go to bed? Walk us through your evening. Yeah. Dinner. Then what do you do for your optimal sleep? Yeah, sometimes I have to work after dinner in the evening, but the best time for me to go to sleep is around 11 or 10, 30 at night.
Starting point is 00:38:56 So if I can put away my work by an hour before that, that's the best time for me. Take a shower. And then in bed, what works great for me is either just prayer and relaxation, deep breathing, or I can distract my racing brain with a really dumb little game on my phone. With my phone set to non-blue. Wait, I'm like, wait, wait, wait, did the sleep researcher just tell me she's playing a game on her phone? Right, but I turn off the blue light. I'm like, I need to delete this.
Starting point is 00:39:37 It's a dimmer screen. I'm gonna be like, you look at Barris, that you're actually saying, I'm proud of you for admitting it. Everybody was just like, she's normal. God, thank God. I play a game called- How do you block the thing on the-
Starting point is 00:39:53 The blue light? Oh, it's a setting on my phone. Just, you know, you can take away the blue light. Oh my God. And so the dumb game recommend that you buy the right everybody. The dumb game is something that's not mentally challenging. And of course, if I lose, it's, okay, so I just, a mess by the way everybody. The dumb game is something that's not mentally challenging.
Starting point is 00:40:05 And of course, if I lose, it's okay. So I just, you know, it's three, where you stick numbers together to form three. And then anyway. So yeah, and within 10 minutes, I'm usually, I'm out. Wow. I don't even bother putting my phone all the way on my nightstand. I just don't drop it.
Starting point is 00:40:24 Okay. I don't even like to have the phone in the bedroom. No, it's better to have it not in the bedroom. And of course, my phone is set to do not disturb mode so that it's not disturbing me. And it doesn't. Yeah. All right. It's better to have it not in the room.
Starting point is 00:40:39 And for some people, actually, what works great also is reading a book, whatever it is. It's just relaxing. And within 10 minutes, 12 minutes, you should be asleep. Well, I could talk to you for hours, obviously, Dr. Poe. I just want to thank you so much on behalf of everybody listening for really breaking this down for us and sharing simple things that we can do. Because as I said from the very beginning,
Starting point is 00:41:06 my mission in having this conversation with you is to help you get the best sleep of your life. And there were so many takeaways from Dr. Poe and I want you to try three of them. That's all that I'm asking. And I'm gonna share with you the three that make the biggest difference for me. Number one, bright light, first thing in the morning. I get my my self outside first thing in the morning to reset the circadian rhythm. It's made a huge
Starting point is 00:41:30 difference. Second, get serious about going to bed earlier. The happier I am, the more successful I am, I notice the earlier I am in bed at night and the more I prioritize my sleep. And third, I am in bed at night and the more I prioritize my sleep. And third, I'm hanging my hat on the bath. I'll tell you what, just like I would train my kids to go to sleep, I take a bath or a shower at night, it is part of the routine. And so I want you to find three things that you're gonna implement based on
Starting point is 00:41:59 what you just learned from the renowned researcher, Dr. Gina Poe, and of course, let me know. Let me know how it's working for you. And one more thing. In case no one else tells you I want to be sure to tell you that I love you, I believe in you and I believe in your ability to apply all this science to make your life a little better. And in the meantime I'll talk to you in a few days. Here we go. First, wait a minute. Today you and I are going to learn from today, you know what, this is not centered.
Starting point is 00:42:35 I'm looking over here. Like, can we, the computer is one third of the way over here. I'd even go even more. There you go. Perfect. Thank you. It's still way over here, I'd even go even more. There you go. Perfect. Thank you. It's still way over here. Something's way off. Oh, that is scary. All right, you want to try that one more time. The computer is so crooked and it's flipping me out. Can we just get a different thing? Don't we have like a different thing somewhere? I'm sorry. It's just like, I know you hate that thing too. Launch it in the trash. Let's see if that'll work. Oh, that's probably too tall
Starting point is 00:43:10 Perfect. Yeah, it's perfect. We're Gucci. Okay, we ready ladies. Sorry, here it comes. Oh Man Does that help you sleep? There's another one. What is that? I don't even know what that is. Sorry everybody. I know I'm disgusting, but I'm also human. We all burp. Okay, here we go. 11, 42. Well, 11, 42 everybody.
Starting point is 00:43:37 All right, but that's okay. All right, I think we got it. Okay, we went to New Territory there. Yes, we went to new territory there. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist,
Starting point is 00:44:18 or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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