The Mel Robbins Podcast - How to Stop Procrastinating, According to the World’s Leading Expert (It’s Not What You Think)

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Are you always the one who is late for everything?Do you find yourself procrastinating, no matter how hard you try to stay focused?Does managing your time to get everything done feel impossible?Mel sits down with THE world’s leading researcher on procrastination.Dr. Joseph Ferrari is a distinguished Professor of Psychology at DePaul University in Chicago, where he has spent nearly three decades researching with colleagues around the world about why we procrastinate. Today, he’s sharing those surprising findings with you. Topics discussed include:How research defines procrastination. (It’s not what you think.)Why procrastination is an epidemic.How procrastinators see the world.The difference between someone who procrastinates and a procrastinator.Signs you may be a chronic procrastinator.How the Premack Principle helps you get stuff done.The REAL reason you procrastinate.Why “social esteem” is so important to procrastinators.The ONE word that can change how you think about yourself.A powerful strategy to use when you feel stuck.The link between procrastination and perfectionism.The difference between an excuse and a legitimate reason.How to deal with procrastinators in your life. You can purchase Dr. Ferrari’s latest book, Still Procrastinating, here: https://shorturl.at/aJPR0Watch the podcast episodes on YouTube: https://bit.ly/45OWCNrCheck out my book, The High 5 Habit: https://a.co/d/g1DQ8Pt Follow Mel:Instagram: https://bit.ly/3QfG8bbThe Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/49bg4GPLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/46Mh0QBTikTok: https://bit.ly/46Kpw2v Sign up for my newsletter: https://bit.ly/46PVnPs Want more resources? Go to my podcast page at melrobbins.com/podcast.Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today because today you and I have a doozy of a topic. This is something we all struggle with. What are we talking about? The Big P. Pocrastination. That's right. We're going there.

Is procrastination a coping mechanism? How do I stop? How do I focus? How can I help someone I love who is a procrastinator? Why do I do it when I know it's not good for me? I feel like I do my best work when I'm under pressure. Is that procrastination? I'll tell you what. I want to know the answers to these questions. Don't you? I bet you do.

So I brought in the best of the best. Dr. Joseph Ferrari. I can tell you right now This professor is fast like a Ferrari. He has got one hell of a personality and I got to be honest with you When I thought about the world's leading expert on procrastination I did not think about the word personality But boy oh boy. Does he have a big one one and he's also warned me that once he gets going he revs that engine up and he just can't stop. So who is Dr. Joseph Ferrari? He's a renowned psychologist and professor of psychology at DePaul University. He's an international researcher

author of seven bestselling books on this topic and he is here to get you moving forward. Dr. Joseph Ferrari is here to cut through the crap and deliver you the truth. He's gonna tell you that you can unlearn it and he's gonna give you tools that you can start using today to stop procrastinating and to actually overcome it for good. Why?

Because you don't have to live the rest of your life doing this to yourself. You can stop hating yourself for never following through, and you can start doing your best work. There is a solution to procrastination. And our guest today is going to teach it to you. This episode will enlighten, inform, and inspire you to change once and for all. And yes, this is the biggest takeaway regarding the science.

Change is possible. So let's not procrastinate on jumping into this any further. We're going to just let it rip. Please help me welcome Professor Joseph Ferrari to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm so delighted to be here. So let's just start with the question, what is procrastination? Okay. Crastination is not the same as delaying. If I'm stuck on the tarmac and my plane isn't getting off and I'm four hours late for some appointment, I didn't procrastinate.

That's delay. It's not the same as pondering, pondering is to pause and to stop and think because you're actively thinking about what should I be doing? It's a misperception, a procrastination, is poor time management. What is procrastination? It's the intentional delay of a target task that is irrational and prevents you from reaching your goal.

So you're purposely not doing something, all right? And it doesn't make any sense to do that. And it's gonna prevent you from reaching your goal. So you're purposely not doing something, all right, and it doesn't make any sense to do that. And it's going to prevent you from reaching a goal. And people feel uncomfortable about it. And it's maladaptive. Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, Oh, there is pro-crastination. You know, there's a good side to procrastination. Right. True. Everything shows that procrastination is a maladaptive lifestyle. You're missing out on life

because for the procrastinator they think the world is all about me. And the world is not about me. It's about we. And if I don't do what I have to do, then you can't do what you have to do. And so it's not about me. I don't like it. I can't do it.

I find it aversive. It's unpleasant. It's too much time. Yeah, life ain't like that. So what? All right, life is about us getting things done. All right. You know, there's that expression. If you want something to be done, you give it to a busy person. Why? It makes no sense. Why a busy person? Because the busy person values your time and values their time and knows that there are things that have to get done. All right. So this is not an adaptive strategy. Let me stop there and say, I'm not shaming or condemning anybody's procrastinator because I hope as we get there, I'm going to show you how procrastination is a learned tendency. And that means you can unlearn it. It's irrational. It prevents you from reaching

your goal. But that's how I would define it. So Dr. Ferrari, you said it's the intentional delay, which made me wonder, do you have to know that you're doing it? Oh? Most procrastinators know that they do. I need to clarify for you something. Everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator. What's the difference? I'm sorry, thank you very much. Uh, 20% of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators.

And as a research psychologist, those are the people I want to study. 20% now you might say, that's all for our, that's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism, right? And yet we treat this humorously. I procrastinate. Well, do you procrastinate on one task? Then you are,

then you procrastinate. Or do you procrastinate on a variety of things that makes you a procrastinate tour? 20% of men and women, no significant gender difference, 20% of people, all right? And we'll not RSVP on time and wait till the gauge goes on empty before they get more gas or get the third bill before they pay it. You know they're going to miss your birthday and your anniversary and Christmas and you'll get the cards later if you get anything and all that. And they'll always have an excuse. That's me.

For them. That's me. Yeah, of course. 20 minutes. 20 minutes. Okay. Well, you showed up 20 minutes late. No, I did not. The schedule was to start the pre-interview at 10 o'clock, because most guests tend to

be a little overwhelmed and a little nervous because of the reach of this show. We have a pre-interview process in place. I was not intentionally delaying. I'll defend myself there. I expect that I'd see you right away, but it's a good example, a good example of what we're talking about, how, you know, how would someone else know that?

That's true. They don't want us to atow that. The person who, quote, non-quote, shows up late, says, this is what's going on. And that's believable because procrastinators are very good, as I was saying, good excuse makers. They always have a reason and it's logical and it makes sense.

The problem is the next time, the same thing happens. And the next time, one another setting. So that's what makes us suspicious after a while. And we say, wait a minute, it's never your fault. It's never your fault. I don't know you, so I'm not saying this is true of you. Please, please do not be offended. I'm trying to explain how this is a good case of what we're talking about. Yes, I agree. So let me ask another question. So how do you know if in fact you are a chronic procrastinator

that you're part of that 20% what are some of the signs so that somebody can go, this is beyond just a funny thing or something that frustrates me. This is something I really need to sit up and pay attention to. Okay, again, this is somebody who RSVPs shows up late who may show up consistently to different events, misses sporting events and concerts

because they never get the ticket on time. You know they're going to be late for gifts. They drive their car on fumes, because they're always late getting the gas or whatever they may need. So you notice in a variety of settings. And if you find yourself doing it at home, at school, at work, in relationships,

that you're always doing this way, then, and if other people can get annoyed by you and tell you that you're a procrastinator, you may be a chronic procrastinator because you're doing it in across time and across space. In science, that's what we look for for consistency. Does it happen from day to day or time to time, and does it happen across location to location, time and space? Now, if it's only one task, I really don't like doing the dishes. I really don't like, for me, it's cutting the grass. I am dressed like I'm going to go cut the grass. So I have all these excuses. It's been

raining and it looks like it's going to rain again today, but I'm not a procrastinator at all. You ask me to do something, you'll get it done. But that's something I will delay doing. Ask yourself, do you do this in different locations at different times? Have people told you that you're delayed? And as I said, this is men and women. There's no significant gender difference. This is young and old.

Urban and rural, different cities and the farm areas and the rural areas, no difference, all races. There is a difference between white collar and blue collar, white collar procrastinate more. Let me make your listeners understand because I understand you have a lot of countries here. This is not just a US thing, this is not only a Western culture because I've collected data with colleagues in Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany, Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Peru, Venezuela, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia,

Japan, South Korea, Iran, and Turkey. And I'm finding 20%. So this is really global. Now the next question is, well then this is this genetic. Are we just human nature? Are we born this way? No. What? No, we're not born, progress.

Oh yeah, some people will say, well there's nothing I can do about it. That's just who I am. You know, I'm just, I'm always, no, no. You know, you learned to be a procrastinator. From who? You can unlearn it.

Oh, from dads. Dads. Yeah. So you learn to be a procrastinator, all right? So you can unlearn it. That's very optimistic. That means you're not condemned this way. Yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks.

You just use a different bone and it takes them longer, but you can unlearn it. If you're boring that way, that's just who you are. Then you're screwed. Then it's over, and it's nothing else you can do it. And that's one, fortunately, too much of our culture is this way. Well, that's how they are.

That's how people are. No, no, people can change. Let's be much more optimistic. Dr. Ferrari. In my rambling, you are just as happy. I's be much more optimistic. Dr. Ferrari. In my rambling, hold on. I need to tell you something. Okay. I love you.

Thank you. Don't tell my wife, but that's okay. I love you because I believe the same thing. Of course you can fricking change. Yeah, it's hard, but of course you can. What you just said made me take a deep breath because I a thousand percent fall into the category of being a chronic procrastinator.

Do you mind sharing a little bit with that means to you? Please publicly, are you okay with that? Oh, of course. Absolutely. So before I jump in and describe the ways in which I procrastinate, I want you as you're listening to me to be thinking about all the different ways that you know that you procrastinate in your life. But I'll go first. So let's just start with when I was a student, let's go back to Dartmouth College and Boston College Law School. Every single paper was an all-nighter.

Every test, a cram session, I was late to every class. You asked me to do something, I'll forget. Birthdays, oh my God, it's like the bane of my existence. I cannot remember a birthday or remember to send a card or to buy a gift to save my fricking life. I forget to book plane tickets. I leave things everywhere I go. I also have dyslexia, I leave things everywhere I go, I also have

dyslexia, I was diagnosed with ADHD. And so I have this story, Dr. Ferrari, that there is nothing I can do about this. And that in some ways, when I think about the creative process, that I need this burst of adrenaline, like there's something about the last minute scramble that gets my ass going and gets my brain churning. And I don't know if that's a story, I don't know if that's a habit. I don't know what the hell it is, but it drives me crazy. It makes me mad that I'm terrible at time management. It makes me embarrassed when I'm late. My husband calls it mel time. Let's say we have to be at a dinner with friends at 6 o'clock. The drive is 10 minutes,

it is 20 minutes to 6. Chris is dressed, he's already fed the dogs, he is walking toward the car. I am running around looking for my phone, I have one shoe on, I go into the bedroom and now I think I have time to make three calls and make the bed and change my clothes. And Chris literally will be sitting in the car in the driveway while I am running around the house like a lunatic trying to find things. And it never equated the last minute scramble actually with procrastinating. I equated it with poor planning with

Excuse making excuse making No, no, no, no, it's true because when you when you stop I've got a whole bunch of stuff to say but keep going What I procrastinate on is paperwork. I miss paying bills. I lose my credit cards all the time, I constantly without a cord charger for my phone, my gas tank, I feel like my form of gambling is to see how far I can go. And then I'm like, why do I do this to myself? And it's this constant battle. to myself and it's this constant battle. May I jump in now, Ms. Robbins? Yes, you may.

Dr. Ferrari. So you were said quite a few things. So thank you for sharing with us all of these items. And in no particular order, I've jotted down some things as you were saying them. So I want to go through them. You started off by telling us about your academic procrastination. All right. You started off by telling us about your academic procrastination. All right. What I have found is that 70% of college students will delay writing,

studying, going to that mentor, doing all these things. At 70%, remember, everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator. So the college student might delay studying, reading, writing a paper, cramming at the last minute doing all the thing We do it, but if there's a free kega beer in the dorm They're there if lady Gaga is given a concert for the first 50 people Lizzo's in the other room there Then they're not procrastinators. They procrastinate when you started off. I was saying, okay

Then she's an academic procrastinator, not a chronic procrastinator. But then you did move into other realms. You know what, Professor Farah, you're right. I did move into other realms, and I hated admitting this to myself. I hated admitting it to you, but I'm afraid that I check every single box that you mentioned. And I fall into that camp of chronic procrastinators.

I mean, like I'm always late to RSVP. I lose everything. I'm always running behind schedule. But never in a million years would I have thought that I'm doing this intentionally, because you said it was the intentional delay that is the hallmark of being a procrastinator or a chronic procrastinator. So here's where I want to go next. If you recognize that you're procrastinating or that like me, you clearly struggle with

chronic procrastination, is this just an issue of time management? It's not going to work. Okay, okay. Well, I'm sure you have a lot to say about why time management doesn't work. But what I wanna hear next is what is going to work. And I need to take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors and Dr. Ferrari, I am not intentionally delaying.

I just wanna ponder what you've already taught us that everybody procrastinates, but not everybody is a chronic procrastinator and that this is a learned behavior and there's something we can do about it. And we are gonna learn exactly what to do about it when we come back. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins and the amazing Dr. Ferrari. Thank you very much.

and the amazing Dr. Ferrari. Thank you very much. You just make me like, I did not expect to enjoy an episode about procrastination as much as I'm enjoying listening and learning from you. So Dr. Ferrari is explaining to you in me that procrastination is the intentional delay of a task and it is irrational, it's mal-adaptive, it prevents you and me from achieving our goals, it makes us feel terrible. Here's the good news. He's about to teach you and me what the research says about how you unlearn procrastination

as a behavior. And before we jump into that research, I want to invite you again as you're listening to this, whether you're driving a car or you're walking the dog or you're at the Gem or folding laundry. I want you to think about the areas of your life or your procrastinating or a project that you have that you may have been Avoiding for quite a while and as Dr. Ferrari starts to teach us what we can do about this. I want you to bring everything that he's saying to whatever it is that you've been avoiding that's frustrating you or the way in which procrastination is impacting you. Okay, so Dr. Ferrari.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with maybe some of your listeners are with a concept called meta-analysis. It's a research technique. Yep. Okay. And so those who are not familiar, a meta-analysis, a scientist takes previously published studies, takes all of them, enters them into a formula, and looks to see what's most effective based on these bodies of literature. Two of them have been done on interventions to deal with procrastination. The least effective technique, the technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, because you need to change the procrastinator's way of thinking cognitive and the way they act,

because it's not a type of question of time management. way they act. Because it's not a tip question of time management. Time management stop, it's not gonna work. Change the way you think, the way you act. How do we do that? Well, you start with this. You read the book, super-crastinating, awesome. You start with the book, and then you go find a good a PhD, clinical psychologist,

who's cognitive behaviorally trained. And you stop the excuse making. One of the things I talk about is they're very good at the but however's. Oh yes, I was gonna do that but I would cut it however. So your listener who's a chronic, well listen to this go, well that was very interesting. There was interesting but in my case, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, oh, I really understand however for me. See, so no, you case, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I really, I understand. However, for me, see, so, you can, look, there's, as you know, the concept of, well, let me write something else down, please, if that's okay. Sure. Okay. So there were three myths and you touched on one of them about procrastination.

And that is, I work best under pressure. You told me about that one too. I got to wait till the last minute. Do these procrastinators, that they work best in the pressure? The short answer is, no. All right, so we bought them in the lab. We had them work on a series of tasks and experiments and a series of studies. They had more errors, but when you asked them, how did you do?

I did great. I did so much better than everybody else. All right, so you don't work best on the pressure. That's one of the myths. I did so much better than everybody else. All right? So, you don't work best on the pressure. That's one of the myths. You don't work best on the pressure. You think you do, all right? But you actually do more failure. Thriller seeking. And I heard ADHD and other kind. There's only been one study ever looking at ADHD and procrastination, and I did that in the 90s. With three samples, two normal and one clinical sample of people diagnosed with ADHD and

found no relationship on yourself. Why didn't you manage your time? You can't in decision is a form of procrastination. It's a cognitive form. It's called decisional procrastination. Our culture reinforces procrastination. We don't reward doing things early. We punish for being late in our culture.

If I don't pay my bills on time, I get a fine. I get an extra charge on my credit card. If you're like me and my wife, in our 39 years of marriage, we pay ahead of time. All the time. I get the bill, I pay it because I don't. I just want to get rid of it. All right. All right. So at the end of the year, did they ever come back and say, thank you very much. Here's a little extra gift. Here's two percent. No. Our cultures don't reward us for doing things ahead of time. They punish us for being late. That makes perfect sense. I've actually never thought about it that way. Do you have any other examples about how society reinforces procrastination?

Christmas shopping. How many seasons coming up? If I wait to Christmas Eve, I get 70% off. I get 80%. Why should I shop earlier? I better wait till the last minute because look at what I'm gonna get In fact give me a gift card and I'll go after Christmas and I'll get even more because people aren't stupid I say flip it baby. I say do it the other way around make that 70 80% off Thanksgiving time And then it gets less and less and less and if you wait to Christ receive, there's a 20% surcharge. April 15, taxes. Why should I pay my taxes earlier? There's no incentive. Let's just say the person has to pay. Well, I'm going to send it in on April 12th, April 14th. I'm going to do it the last minute. No, government's got it wrong. Again, reward for doing early. We have to

reward for doing early, not punish. I am not in favor of punishing for being late. That makes sense. So how do you as an individual that recognizes that you are a procrastinator apply rewarding being early to your own life. We can talk about that, but let me also clarify from the beginning, I'm not a clinical psychologist, all right? And so I don't believe as a psych research psychologist that we should be doing street corner philosophy like this, tell me the magic bullet because that doesn't how life is. You know, you need to understand the person and their dynamics, all right?

You're asking me as everybody does. Just tell me the cure. Thank you for the causes, thank you for the consequences, but I want the cure. As well, life isn't like that, but I'm gonna respect your question in terms of asking of that. One technique you can use comes back from the 1960s, the pre-Mac principle.

David Pre-Mac was a psychologist who found that you can use high rates of behavior to reinforce low rates of behavior. What does that mean for Ari? In other words, you can take something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. So you don't like doing the dishes. Okay. So you say to yourself, I'm going to wash these five dishes. If I wash these five dishes, then I'm going to watch real fortune for five minutes, whatever the heck it is that you like. If I do 10 dishes, I do 10 minutes. So you're making something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. Been around a long time, all right? That's called the pre-Mac principle.

Public posting, another thing from the 60s, that was around, or 60s and 70s. Very easy today. Publicly post, research is found years ago that if you publicly post something in those days, it was a piece of paper outside your office door, or something like that. So people could see it, some high traffic area.

This is what I'm going to do. This is what needs to be done. Then you're much more likely to do that than not. Today with social media, use it. Say publicly posted to your friends. Guys, I need to do this and this is what I do. And if I don't do it, don't let me buy the tickets to the concert.

I can't come out with you Friday night to go to the bar, okay? And hold me to that. There's a fundamental question that is like, why do people do this? Yes. Why? Yeah. It's so maladaptive for Ari. I hear you now. There's these myths and it's irrational and it prevents me. All right. And it causes pain. And it causes pain for you and others. And by the way, another set of studies we've done procrastinators don't like other procrastinators. They don't want to hang out with them. They blame them for the failures of everything. They have very interesting things. So if you're a procrastinator and you think I'll get sympathy from other

procrastinators, you're not. I am so friggin tired. I am so tired of people thinking it's time management. And just you're lazy, you're not lazy. Hmm. What are the causes of procrastination? It's a self-handy-capping strategy, fears. I'm afraid of failure. See, if I never finish, I can never be judged. Let me explain what I'm talking about.

Okay, if I take my time doing some, if I don't meet the deadline and I delay, then I can simply say, you know, I didn't have enough time. I know this is not the best thing. This is as good as I can get it. But if I had more time, I would have them better. So lack of effort is not a positive image, but it's a better image than I did it and it's a piece of garbage. You know, if you put something together and it's good. So people would rather have other people think that they lack effort, hence I procrastinate, then lack ability, because I can't change ability the next time I can try harder. So there's this attribution tendency to people.

Chronic procrastinated prox are very concerned about what we call their social esteem. As a social psychologist, procrastiners are very concerned about protecting their social esteem. Now, you know what self esteem is. That's how I feel about myself. Social esteem is how others feel about me. And I would rather have others think I lack effort because I want to maintain a good image with them. I want them to like me. And I would rather have others think I lack effort because I want to I want to maintain a good image with them. I want them to like me. Some researchers these days are calling itself regulation failure. What does that mean? It's in it's a new name for an old concept called delay of gratification. What these researchers are saying is that people procrastinate

because they can't regulate the pleasure. They want the immediate pleasure now and they can't delay it to the future. So they're unable to self-regulate. Well, I agree with that, but that's not the only reason. People tend to either choose or claim to seize, choose or claim handicaps in life. What does that mean? They choose to put something in their way, I was just talking to a person yesterday,

and the person was saying that their teenage son loves pizza, but also is pretty good on basketball. So if he doesn't think he's gonna win that night, he eats a pizza. If he does poorly, he can say, yeah, I lost, I shouldn't have had that pizza. See, it's not me that I didn't have the skill to show. It was the pizza.

So people will choose handicaps, or they claim handicaps. They'll say, I'm shy. Just saying that's what the literature says. My dissertation showed women who are procrastinators choose handicaps. So that was kind of novel. No one had shown that before.

But men tend to choose, women tend to claim. If I fail, I have an obstacle. I can discount me, we say. It's not my fault. It's that thing. But life is interesting. I want to ask you a question, though, because you just use, you know, the quote, choosing a handicap by saying, I'm shy. Which I'm sure everybody listening that feels like they're introverted or shy or has quote social anxiety went, but I am, but I am. What does that mean I am? Did you learn that?

Is there a gene for that? I have no idea. There's no gene for it. It's a learned tendency. So that is the way you are now. I am not dishing you I am saying you can change and isn't that amazing? You're not born that way. Don't tell me that is how I am Say that is how I am now. I can be different. I can be better

We have 70 years 80 if we're strong. Yeah, that's all you got. Why are you procrastinating? Leave a legacy, make the world better. Ms. Robbins, I hope that's what you're doing here with your podcasts. You're making the world a little better for those who are listening. Thank you for acknowledging that. And that certainly is my mission here. And it's exactly what I'm trying to do with every single episode of the Mel Robbins podcast. And, you know, Dr. Ferrari, it's also what's so cool about our audience.

See, as you are listening to Dr. Ferrari right now, you're driving around, you're in your car, you're on your walk, I know that you tune in because you wanna improve your life. You wanna change, you want to leave a legacy. So thank you for doing that. I think that's really cool that you're investing time in yourself. And thank you, Dr. Ferrer, for helping us understand this topic of procrastination and

learning how we can change. And I think this is a really good moment to also acknowledge our sponsors of the L Robbins podcast because they support this show and allow me to bring this conversation to you at zero cost. So let's hit the pause and hear a quick word from our sponsors. And I'm gonna be waiting for you right after the break with two really fascinating topics that we're gonna dig into next.

In Dr. Ferrari's research, he writes about two different types of procrastination. He's going to dig into those and we're also going to talk about what do you do when you live with somebody who is a chronic procrastinator? All of that when we return. Stay with us. Welcome back. Thank you so much for taking time to listen to our sponsors. I'm your friend

Mel Robbins. We're here with Dr. Ferrari and we're spending the rest of the time together today focused on how we unlearn the behavior of procrastination. You now know that this is not an issue of you being lazy or defective. This is not an issue of time management. This is a learned behavior. And so Dr. Ferrari, let's start with, what are the two forms of procrastination? There is a behavioral and cognitive. The cognitive procrastinator is the indecisive, the decisional, I call them,

we call them in the field, decisional procrastinator. Why would somebody engage in decisional procrastination? Because it's beautiful. I live out here in the Western suburbs of Chicago. There's a movie theater with 31 movies. Now, imagine going to the movies with an indecisive friend, what would happen?

You'd walk up and they were looking and they said, ah, I don't know. And you say, come on, what do you want walk up and they were looking they say Oh And you say come on. What do you want to see and what did they tell you? I don't know. I don't know and you go come on come on pick one now This is a brilliant move on these people's part Because what happens? You decide and you decide now if the movie is great when you leave everybody's happy But if the movies are done,

what are they gonna tell you afterwards? That was a terrible choice. Yeah, you picked that. You made me waste $14. Why did you ever pick that? Why did we go there for a vacation? That was terrible. Why did we ever buy that car?

I think it sucks. Oh, well, what's the matter with that dining room table? I never wanted that kitchen set. You see, the problem with the indecisive is they let other people do it. I call it in my book, bailing them out. All right? It's okay to let other people, if you want to not make a decision, you have every right not to do it.

Not making a decision is a decision. That's true. And therefore shut up. In other words, you don't have the right to complain afterwards. You've profited your right. You gave up. Your ability to complain about it. If you let someone else make the decision,

do you got to live with that indecisive? I'm sorry. All right, you had a chance. I think this is an area where tons of people struggle. Oh yeah. So the first thing is you limit the options. You don't take the indecisive to 31 movies. You take them with as only a couple.

You don't bring them to a smorgasbord buffet because they'll just stand there and go, oh my God, look at all the food. You go eat. Okay. No. You limit the options for the indecisive. Do the math, as they say. There are pro and conless also not considered effective, but if you do this twist to pro and

conless, it works. You create the pros and cons list, and don't just look at which ones longer. Look at within that list, which items do you value? What's more important? The pro list may be short, but it has things that you value more than the con. And this may sound odd, but take your time. All right, in other words, make an informed decision.

Don't stall, ponder, pause, but produce. If you wanna walk on water, you gotta get out of the boat. If you wanted to succeed, you've gotta take that risk. And so what would you fail? So what, okay?? So what? Okay. What happens in your brain when you procrastinate? Why are you going there? Okay.

We just said it's learned. Why are you looking for the physiological explanation? Because first of all, we don't know. Okay. And I don't mean to do that just because I'm a pompist, but it's also the truth. Let's stop turning for the excuse that there's a brain thing going on, and therefore that's why I procrastinate.

If you're gonna do that, then you're not gonna change, and that's okay. I mean, you have a right to live in misery as one wants to. I think it's incredibly encouraging that it's learned, because I agree with you. That means you can change it. And I also heard you loud and clear, forget the time management crap,

based on the research, none of that stuff is gonna work for you. If this is something that you're chronically doing. And you also said very clearly, there is no quick fix. There is no top 10 tips when it comes to procrastination, because this is about the story you've told yourself, the habits that you've formed, and that you avoid, avoid, avoid or seek pleasure

instead of doing whatever the hell it is that you need to do. There is a link, but they are separate concepts. It all goes down to that failure. You see that perfectionistic person has to believe that I do well all the time. I've got to be perfect. It could be, as I said, others imposing this to me, society imposing this to me, or it could be, I'm concerned about my failures. So again, it's multi-dimensional, all right?

Procrastination is also concerned about the failure. And so I want to avoid it. It's an avoidance strategy. That society says is okay. It all has to do with failure and that public image. You know, I don't want other people, I think, with the procrastination, is that public image.

I think a lot about the person listening and the ache that you live with when you can't get out of your own way. We're in 194 countries. Most of the people listening can't afford the PhD cognitive behavioral therapy program that you're talking about. And so for a person who really is in their own way, They see themselves sabotaging.

What can somebody do in their own life after hearing this? What are the baby steps? This is what cognitive therapist would ask you to do. Start small. First of all, what you're doing is you're looking at the forest and you're missing that the forest is made up of trees. Okay. Don't miss the forest because you're focused at the forest, and you're missing that the forest is made up of trees. Okay. Don't miss the forest, because you're focused on the trees.

That's not the procrastinators' problem. It's the other way around. They see the forest. Oh my God, this is a huge task. Holy cow, I can't get all of this done. They forget that the forest is made up of trees. So listen, a viewer, all right, it's made up of trees. And so what if you

cut down one tree at a time? Oh, that's too much for you. Then let's give me three branches. You can't do three branches. I'll take a handful of leaves. Start small, do something. And so what if you fail? What would be the worst scenario? Let me give you some of the examples of things that people listening to the show. You have to do the street corner, street corner therapy again. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no intellectual topics and research and conceptual ideas into tactical takeaways so that somebody knows what the hell you're talking about when you say, I don't want the cures. That's bullshit. I want just one step because I see people writing in every day listening to conversations between PhDs or people that are talking at a level that is all academic,

but when you finish listening to this podcast, Dr. Ferrari, I don't want somebody to feel worse because they don't know what a tree means in their life. And so if somebody writes in and says, I procrastinate on working out and it's chronic, like this is one thing that really bothers me. What would a tree be in that example? Sure.

I take exception. I'm known in 40 years of teaching to take the jargon and to make it the street wise. I think you do. I'm taking it a step further because I don't have a pH block. I don't think it is either. You don't need to get offended. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just I am I am the advocate for the person listening. Absolutely.

So I who I would say that person is giving us that 80% I asked the person first. Is this the only thing is working out the only thing you procrastinate on? Do you procrastinate in other areas of your of your life? And if they start telling me, well, yeah, I know why I do that. And yeah, that's true too. And I'll do that. Then I was okay, now, then you're moving from that procrastinator to procrastinate team to the procrastinator state. And that's something different. And I understand that some of you, many of you, can't afford a good professional to help you through that. I understand that.

Don't look at a time management. That's one of the, I gave a number of takeaways, but I think one of them is, don't think you just have to manage your time. That's not going to work for you. It's like dieting. You'll start in the beginning, but you'll give it up. The person with the, who doesn't exercise, can you make something you like to do, reinforced that you'll exercise?

I don't like working on a treadmill. So when I'm on the treadmill, I'm reading my prayers. I know it'll take me about a good 20 minutes to do that, and so I can get at least 20 minutes of exercise. Pay it with something you'd like to do. That would be my street corner answer to that one. That help? Yeah, that's a lot. You know, in my opinion, that's not street corner counseling, Dr. Ferrari. That is you taking something that's very thematic in terms of advice and giving us a very specific,

actionable, relatable thing that I could do tonight in my life. And so I want to take it a step further and talk to you as you're listening to us. Think about something that you've been procrastinating on. Okay, so that means something that you're intentionally delaying. You know it's irrational that you're delaying it. You know it's going to come back to bite you in the you know what? It could be paying bills or maybe it's getting holiday gifts ordered or maybe you've been wanting to update your contact list. This is a big one for me.

I look at my contacts and my phone and there are so many people I've been talking to in years. I've got coworkers from five jobs ago whose email addresses don't even work and I just constantly avoid cleaning it up, but it bothers me. So what Dr. Ferrari is saying to you and me is tonight, how about you pair the thing you've been avoiding with something you enjoy, full laundry in front of the TV?

I could delete the old contacts while I'm sitting next to Chris tonight in front of the fire. You could order gifts tonight while you are relaxing in your bed instead of just doom scrolling on social media. You could listen to music that you love while you're cleaning out your closet. That is one way that you can use science to stop avoiding and start unlearning this behavior. And you know, I gotta say one other thing.

I have admitted to you that I struggle with chronic procrastination, but I have not said I have been working on this and what doctor Ferrari is saying works. I absolutely see myself getting better and you want to know why because I want to. And so from one procrastinator to another, I am going to tell you something. You will be surprised by how just chipping away at this is so effective and you can unlearn this and get better at this faster than you think. And the other thing that I have discovered is you won't believe how much time you are

wasting avoiding things. And you're going to feel more peaceful. And in fact, one of the things that I've found taking baby steps and just forcing myself to do this stuff is that I've got more time to put myself first. I've got more time to take better care of myself, which only makes me do this less and less. Yeah, it's all part of self care. Show care to yourself. Listener, please. All right, you've got to make time. Take time for yourself. The next day, do a little bit more. Make love a habit of the heart. Wow, last week I only spent two minutes on it. This week I'm up to seven minutes. Now you could say only seven minutes. I say, wow, Yahoo! That's seven minutes more than you did before.

I love that. And one other thing I want to point out, Dr. Ferrari, and to you listening, is that he is now teaching you a strategy that's back by research that we've talked about extensively on this podcast, and that is the power of celebration. Celebrating small wins, focusing on what you're doing right, calling it out. It is the most effective motivational force in the world. Instead of the beat down in the excuses, if you were to do what Dr. Ferrari just suggested and what you and I have talked about on tons of episodes on this podcast, you do the Yahoo! You celebrate, you fold laundry for two minutes tonight, high five.

Yahoo! You know what else? Scientifically speaking, it's gonna make you more motivated. You celebrate what you do tonight, you're gonna feel motivated to do it again tomorrow night. And now you're starting to roll in a new direction. And this is so important. I want to remind you that every single episode of the Mel Robbins podcast has so many resources.

We link to them. You can go to MelRobbins.com to the show page. You will find everything that you need about Dr. Ferrari. You will find episodes of the Mel Robbins podcast that relate to what we're talking about. And the power of appreciation and celebration is a motivational force. I call that the high five habit. We've done episodes on it. That will be there for you as well. But that actually makes me think of something else, Dr. Ferrari. When you're procrastinating, you always have an excuse for why you're doing it. How do you know the difference between whether or not you are making an excuse or you actually

have a valid reason to not do something right now? That is such a wonderful question. Why are you shopping now instead of later? And that was fascinating because I found two categories of these procrastinators, excuse makers. Some of them attributed to themselves while I'm shopping now because I can't decide on gifts. I really don't like shopping. It's really unpleasant for me.

So it's my fault, self-reason. So people will give external excuses. And so therefore, these people will give us excuses that can't be judged by others to be true or false. So that's fascinating. But you know what I found fascinating about that? Is that when you said the excuses aimed at you, it's my fault. That made my heart sink. Because when you always aim it at yourself, I would imagine that that makes you feel even more stuck or more ashamed or more beaten down.

Yes. You know, make a change. Yes, you're absolutely right. The self-evaluing, the self-criticism, it can be paralyzing and demoralizing and it's just not right. People shouldn't be doing that. It'll take you a while, but it can happen. And that again goes back to the importance of something that you had just said, Dr. Ferrari,

and that is every time you catch yourself procrastinating. And instead of delaying, you push yourself to take the action, you make the call, you fold the laundry, you start working on that proposal, as Dr. Ferrari said, yeah, whoo, you celebrate the two minutes and then the seven minutes and the baby steps, start rolling from baby steps into you doing it all the time. And next time you know, you're not a chronic procrastinator

at all. You're the kind of person that gets stuff done and see how this all works together. You catch the excuse, you push yourself to do it, you congratulate and celebrate the fact that you did bada bing, bada boom. We're now moving like a Ferrari, Dr. Ferrari. I know, I love it.

You know, we've talked a lot about procrastination when we do it, but Dr. Ferrari, can you give advice to us for when we are dealing with a procrastinator or we live or love somebody who is a chronic procrastinator. Okay. I'm asking on behalf of my husband, who lives with a chronic procrastinator named Mel. Is there any advice or counsel or insight that you have to give to somebody who's dealing with someone like this? I'm laughing because you've touched something personal, but it's hard to change them because they're great excuse makers

They'll always tell you you don't understand they'll pull up something in the past. This is what happened Don't you remember how dare you force me? I'm my own person. Don't be a therapist with me You know something like that. They'll throw that one in your face So it's not easy. You have a wife who's a procrastinator? I'm not allowed to say. Okay. She's now in the other room. And so I've been a lot of thinking.

You're not supposed to talk about me. That's right. Oh man. Well, I got to thank you. I really learned a lot. And I love how you don't hold back. No, I do. I really do. I love your passion for this. And yeah, listeners, too. This is passion. This is not a rudeness. That's why I can go toe to toe with you because I'm equally passionate about what I do. And I deeply respect your research and your expertise here here by feel a deep level of hope from your message.

Knowing that this is a learned behavior, knowing that society rewards procrastination, knowing that you are completely lying to yourself with these excuses and you are more capable than you're telling yourself. That's right. And today, you learned that just because you have spent decades procrastinating does not mean you are sentenced to being a procrastinator for the rest of your life. This is not your identity. This is a behavior pattern that you learned and this is absolutely something that you can

and should change. It begins with you making a decision that you want to change. And today you have learned so much about this topic and you've also learned very specific things that you can do. Every time you catch yourself procrastinating or making the excuse, stop. Choose to do one small step forward. Pair what you've been avoiding with something that you love. Celebrate the single baby steps that you're making. And wake up every single day. And change one small step forward at a time.

That's how you make your life a little bit better every single day. Thank you, Dr. Ferrari. Thank you. And you know, you're touched on something. Life is short and I can make my life and other lives better enriching other people's lives. Well, thank you. Woo. I don't know about you, but after spending a little bit of time with Dr. Ferrari, I feel like I got to go do something, you know what I mean? Like I know more procrastinating. But before I jump off the mic, and I go tackle that pile of to-dos, I want to to make sure I remind you that I love you and I believe in you.

Stop listening to those stupid excuses I've got them to, put your head down and start to chip away at it. And the most important piece for me is the self-compassion. As you do start doing the work to change, please, savor it. Be kind to yourself and cheer yourself forward. Alrighty, I'll see you in a few days. Here we go.

Oh my God. There he is. Don't want it only. I'm probably talking beyond your script, so let's go and back. You mentioned you need that creative juices. I love it. So, there's, as you know, the concept of,

well, let me write something else down please, if that's okay. Sure. What does that mean? I got to get rid of water. Do it. You know when you have good food in your mouth, you want to save for that.

I got to keep that in my mouth. So, savoring. So, which one are they doing? All right, should we go there? Yes. I love that. Let's do it now. There you go.

Yes, of course. So, I told you, once I start talking. I love it. I do have some questions about that though. Hold on a second. How do we apply this? I didn't finish my stick. I got to figure I do have some questions about that though. Hold on a second. How do we apply this? I didn't finish my stick. I got to figure out how to ask questions about interrupting you is what I got to do.

I know. And I told you, Amy, before that, I do this. That's fun. I don't know what you said. I'm on a roll. I need to go down. I got to ask you a question. And you have to go up.

I'm sorry. I'm going down this path. I love it. Keep going. No, I love listening to you. Keep going. No, I know me to offend any of your listeners, but I am have to be who I am.

The crit, the loss of my train of thought. The, the, the, the. Uh. Oh, and one more thing. I know this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyer's right and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.

I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. you