The Mel Robbins Podcast - Reset Your Mental Health: The Diet & Nutrition Protocol From a Renowned Harvard MD

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

Do you want more energy?Are you done with the constant anxiety? Can’t seem to climb out of your funk?In today’s episode, you’ll learn the exact steps to optimize both your mental and physical health.Joining Mel today is Harvard’s Chris Palmer, MD, whose work lies at the intersection of nutrition, metabolism, and mental health. He will explain how he believes your diet is causing your brain to misfire, which is why simple changes to your diet and lifestyle can help you improve your mental health.Dr. Palmer is a psychiatrist who has practiced at Harvard’s McLean Hospital, the #1 psychiatric hospital in the nation, for almost 30 years. He is also the Founder and Director of the recently launched Metabolic & Mental Health Program at McLean Hospital. His innovative approaches to treatment-resistant mental health challenges have brought his patients relief and hope, which is why his waitlist is years long. Today, you’ll learn Dr. Palmer’s exact protocol he shares with his patients in Boston. In this episode, you will learn:What your metabolism is and what it has to do with your mental and physical health.The shocking patient results and personal story that fueled Dr. Palmer’s passion.The 7 signs that you probably have a metabolic disorder.How the Brain Energy protocol could help your mind and body heal.The exact tools and action steps that Dr. Palmer shares with his patients for better mental health.What mitochondria are and how they are the key to your mental health.How the ketogenic diet was discovered as a medical protocol by doctors.How to know if you’re getting enough sleep.What exercise has to do with your mental health.How to help someone in your life who’s struggling with their mental health.What you need to hear if you’re the one who needs support.Dr. Palmer goes deep into the science and his protocols. All additional resources to learn about Dr. Palmer and his science are linked on this page of Mel’s website:https://www.melrobbins.com/podcast.Watch the episodes on YouTube: https://bit.ly/45OWCNr Check out Mel’s book, The High 5 Habit: https://a.co/d/g1DQ8Pt Follow Mel:Instagram: https://bit.ly/3QfG8bbThe Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/49bg4GPLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/46Mh0QBTikTok: https://bit.ly/46Kpw2v Sign up for my newsletter: https://bit.ly/46PVnPsWant more resources? Go to the podcast page here. Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend, Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Hey, how you doing? I'm so glad you're here. It's your friend, Mel. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. And first of all, thank you for being here with me. And I also want to thank you for taking the time to listen to something that could improve your life.

I think that's pretty cool. And whether you're a longtime listener or you're brand new, you are part of the Mel Robbins podcast family, and we are a smart, empowering, positive group of people. And I'm glad that you're a part of us. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. And I'm on a mission to inspire you, to empower you with tools and inspiration and the expert resources that you need to create a better life. And boy, oh boy, are you in for a treat today?

I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Dr. Chris Palmer to the podcast today. And let me tell you why I wanted him to be on the show. Dr. Palmer is a professor at Harvard Medical School and he has spent almost 30 years at the number one psychiatric hospital in the nation that is Harvard's teaching hospital, McLean Hospital right here in Boston. And based on his extensive clinical experience, Dr. Palmer wants to change the way mental

health is discussed and treated. Today, he is here to explain to you his brain energy theory, which is a concept that many people in the medical field think is controversial. I personally do not, which is why I wanted you to hear it and know about it. Dr. Palmer believes that your diet can make you mentally ill. For decades, he has been trying to help people with severe mental illnesses and treatment-resistant cases. He grew frustrated with the very limited options that were available to trying to help people with severe mental illnesses and treatment-resistant cases. And he grew frustrated with the very limited options that were available to him to help make

people better. And he's obsessed with finding a way to help his patients and to help you achieve better outcomes and live the life that you deserve to live. Dr. Palmer's message is incredibly hopeful and it's also tactical. You will learn about patient studies where the results are honestly shocking. He will explain how he believes that your diet and metabolic issues are causing your brain to misfire, which is why he also believes that simple changes to your diet and your lifestyle can help you heal your brain and improve your mental health. Now I'm clearly excited that he's here because I know that this is one of those episodes

that's gonna either change your life or it will change the life of someone that you love. The information that Dr. Palmer is about to share with you, it could help someone you love finally start to climb out of their depression or get their anxiety under control or help loosen the grip of OCD or an eating disorder, or lessen the impact of PTSD, and even make a significant difference with a mood disorder.

Now, before we jump into the research that connects every mental health issue with a metabolic disorder, we will begin with Dr. Palmer's personal story. You're about to learn that there's a deeply personal reason why Dr. Palmer is passionate about changing what he calls a deeply broken mental health system and why he's on a mission to find simple and accessible options that will help you and your loved

ones. And after you hear his story, you'll also learn about a few case studies and then he will unpack his brain energy theory, which is the connection between your metabolism, your brain functioning, and your mental health. And finally, Dr. Palmer, he will leave you in action because I often say this is not just a listening podcast, this is a doing podcast, so we want you doing something at the end of this. He's going to explain the exact plan that he uses as a starting point with his patients here in Boston. Now, I'm going to underscore something that you will hear Dr. Palmer repeat throughout the episode, and it's this. If you are inspired to make any lifestyle or diet changes based

on what you hear today, only do so after consulting with your own doctor. I am so thrilled to be able to bring you this world-class resource at absolutely zero cost. Dr. Palmer has changed my own understanding of my metabolism, my brain, my own mental health, and I am confident that he's gonna do the same for you. His research is so exciting and important that just a few weeks ago, Harvard University announced that Dr. Palmer is the founder and director of a brand new metabolic and mental health program here at Harvard's Teaching Hospital in Boston.

And it is such a gift that you and I are able to spend time with him. His practice has a waitlist that is years long. But today, he's here for you and your loved ones. Now let's jump into that conversation. You have something pretty exciting and revolutionary to share. Based on 30 years of research, personal experience, treating patients, you have answers to those questions and you're here with a really inspiring message. So what is it that you want the person to know at a high level about your

work? So I think the most important thing I want people to know is that they are probably being told that their mental illness is genetic or neurodevelopmental or something else. And that the experts are doing the best they can and that people just need to accept that they can have serious debilitating lifelong mental disorders. And there's not much we can do about that. I just want to say mental health treatments work and we have many treatments. They do work. They save millions of lives every year.

But the reality is they fail to work for far too many people. Some people get those treatments, they get them year after year after year, and they just don't work. And we in the mental health field have been struggling with this. It's not that we're blind to this. And so we in the mental health field have been desperate to find better answers. And what I want people to know is that cutting-edge research over the last 20 years completely shatters that hopeless message. There is hope. We can use science now to help people get better. Wow. I think the most exciting news is that there are concrete things that most people can do

today with diet, exercise, sleep, stress reduction, managing your substance use or even the prescription medicines that you're taking, all of those common sense things, that there are ways that people can put those strategies together to actually heal their brains, to function better, to reduce their suffering. And I'm not just talking about mild anxiety or depression. Yes, I am talking about those. So if somebody's suffering from burnout, yes, this is for you. But I'm also talking about people suffering from horrible debilitating

mental disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, ADHD, whatever, whatever diagnostic label you want to talk about, this applies to those people too. diagnostic label you want to talk about, this applies to those people too. Wow. Let's start at the beginning. What made you figure all of this out, Dr. Palmer? Because this is personal for you. It is. There is an epidemic of mental health problems in the world. I have seen so many patients week after week, There is an epidemic of mental health problems in the world. I have seen so many patients week after week, year after year, not getting better with all

the pills that I'm trying. And as a provider, I definitely have wanted to help them, have wanted to understand, what am I missing? Why aren't they getting better? I look at the nationwide, worldwide statistics and they are awful, abysmal, and only getting worse. Yeah. Here in the United States, one in five people right now in any given year has a mental illness.

Over the course of a lifetime, 50%, one in two adults in the United States will meet criteria for a mental illness at some point or another during their life. There's no question all of that drives me, but I think what you're kind of asked me is, Chris Palmer, why are you a psychiatrist? Why did you decide to do this? Yeah. And then it does get very personal. So I personally had mental illness when I was a kid and it started as OCD. It was never diagnosed. It was never recognized. Nobody knew what it was. I didn't know what it was. I just knew that I was odd and different. What were you do?

Like what made you go okay? Um, oh, I was kind of a mess as a child. Unfortunately, I really was kind of a mess. Well, fortunately for the rest of us, because I think it's one of the reasons why you have so much compassion and passion to serve. It is. So when I was a kid, I was just relentlessly bullied and teased. As I said, I had OCD, so I had fears of contamination.

I thought things, you know, if I touched something, it was contaminated. At one point I actually thought like the air was contaminated. And I would go around putting my hand over my mouth every time I talked or opened my mouth. And which of course made me look, I'm sure just very popular.

So I am like this odd, crazy little kid. And I just kind of meandered through that way. And then when I was 12, some horrible, awful stuff happened and my mother's extended family were involved and she has a nervous breakdown which starts with what we would call major depression. It quickly spirals into depression with suicidality and then shortly thereafter begins to include psychotic symptoms. So she becomes convinced that she's Mary Magdalene reincarnated.

The world is ending. Jesus Christ has come back. He's a priest that she's going to for counseling. My father is now the devil incarnate. And so that leads to them getting a divorce. And my mother loses everything. She loses everything as a result of her mental illness. She loses custody of all eight kids. So I'm one of eight. She loses all of her money. She loses the house.

She and my father had started a business, a pharmacy. She loses ownership of that and doesn't get any portion of it. So she left and was living in a rooming house. And I was terrified for my mother. She got psychiatric treatment through all of this. She was hospitalized. She took antipsychotics. She took antidepressants. She took mood stabilizers, and they basically drugged her. They made it so that she slurred her speech. She couldn't walk a straight line. She couldn't keep her eyelids up open. She looks drugged and she's still crazy.

And I'm like, what on earth are they doing to her? These psychiatrists are like evil. They're arrogant jerks and they're drugging her and she's not better. Like, what is wrong with these people? Why aren't they helping her? So when she lost everything and moved out for the two reasons of number one, I'm like, she's gonna die. She's psychotic, depressed and suicidal

and she's just lost everything. She is going to be dead. So I left, I left my father and my seven siblings and I went to live with my mom. And we started off in this rooming house. The support money that we were getting wasn't enough to pay for this room. We ran out of money.

We end up homeless. My first day of high school, I'm living in a homeless shelter, going to high school. We end up getting some money from her father, get a tiny apartment by the railroad tracks. I'm living with her. That was like one of the most miserable times in my life. How on earth did that inspire you

to want to become a psychiatrist? Like, I think for, as I listen to this, I keep thinking I would have gone so far in the other direction away from mental health, away from people who are struggling with profound illness. Early on, I did. Early on, I wanted nothing to do with them at all. I hated it. I was furious with it. I saw them as a bunch of incompetent, arrogant snobs.

And yet you end up at Harvard. As the, like, literally chief psychiatric resident at the most acclaimed mental health teaching hospital, arguably in the entire world. What was it that made you then want to go, okay, I actually am going to become a psychiatrist? It's really interesting because when I got into medical school, I was still actually of the mindset I don't want to be a psychiatrist. I was going to be maybe a surgeon or a pediatrician or just a family medicine doc. Anything but psychiatry.

And when I did my psychiatry rotation, I remember going in with hope, like, oh, I'm at a really good medical school now. These are the people who know how to do it right. These are the smart psychiatrists. Like I just assumed all of those incompetent, arrogant fools that I met dealt with before. They were out on the West Coast. They were just, yeah, they were just Midwest jerks. And now I'm at one of the leading medical schools in the country.

And when I did my rotation, I was again just heartbroken. I saw all of these patients coming in when we were drugging them and they were still crazy, but they looked drugged. All of them looked drugged. They were shuffling around. They couldn't keep their eyes open. They looked like zombies. And I was thinking, what the hell are they doing?

And at that point, I actually was even more emboldened. Oh, this is definitely not the field for me. And yet my heart was breaking with every patient that I saw. Because I was thinking, you deserve better. You deserve a better life. You deserve better treatment than what we are giving you. I know that you didn't do anything wrong. I know that you don't deserve this. Nobody can see that now. You're like a homeless schizophrenic now and everybody looks down on you. But I know from my own experience that no,

this was somebody. This still is somebody. Maybe that somebody is still in there waiting, hoping to be saved. And yet all we're doing is drugging them. All we're doing is giving them pills that aren't working. Make no mistake, if the pills work, I'm all for it. I'm talking about the people who are taking their pills and they aren't working and just having horrible side effects. And it's interesting because the thing that really pushed me, I'm a little bit of a rebel. The thing that pushed me is that I actually was one of the top students in medical school. I won an award for being one of the top students.

Let's go, Dr. Palmer! There are all of these professors who are keeping an eye on me trying to figure out what should Chris Palmer become? What kind of a doctor should we steer him to be? And I remember at least two different professors. When they asked me what I was considering, I said, you know, oh, maybe surgery, maybe pediatrics. And they all said no way. Why? Don't do psychiatry.

Why? That would be a waste. It would be a waste of your talent. You are a smart, you are one of our top medical students. Don't waste it on that field of psychiatry, where all they do is throw pills at people that don't really work. You're better than that, Chris Palmer.

You need to go into a different field. That infuriated me so much. Is that why the psychiatrists are all incompetent? Like none of the good students go into psychiatry. Is that why this field is such a mess? So that pushed me. Obviously, all of my personal experience. So I ended up at McLean and Harvard. When I ended up there, I was still struggling with low-grade OCD, low-grade depression. And now I am developing metabolic syndrome.

I have high blood pressure. I'm only my 20s, and I have high blood pressure, pre-diabetes. I've got horrible lipids. So I've pretty much got all of the biomarkers of metabolic syndrome. And so, what did you do when you get diagnosed with this metabolic disorder? So, year after year, my doctor kept telling me, go on a low-fat diet and exercise. And I was already doing that. And I kept telling him, I'm doing a super low-fat diet. At one point, I was eating like less than five or 10 grams of carbs or five or 10 grams

of fat a day. So I was on super low-fat diet. I was exercising at least three times a week, going to the gym, running, doing other things. And everything was getting worse. My blood pressure was just going up and up. My blood sugars were going up. Everything was getting worse. My blood pressure was just going up and up. My blood sugars were going up. Everything was getting worse. And he leans in and is like,

we're gonna have to put you on medicine. We're gonna have to put you on medicine. And the final time he actually was very clear and firm, you've got to go on medicine. You must, like we're done. For your blood pressure and your cholesterol. For your blood pressure, cholesterol, and pre-diabetes. We're done.

We're done messing around. You've got to go on it. And I realized how serious it was, because I'm only in my 20s, I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to be having heart attacks when I'm 45. This is not cool. And I'm taking three pills a day. But I also realized I don't want to go on pills because going on pills means it's only going to be downhill from here.

I want to be able to control this through diet and exercise. So, what'd you do? And so, I changed my diet. I totally... The rebel in me came out and I had heard about the Ackens diet, which is a low-carb, usually ketogenic diet. And I give it a try, primarily to reverse my metabolic syndrome. That's all I wanted to do. I had heard through the rumor mill from other people that they were improving their diabetes,

improving their cholesterol, improving their blood pressure by going on the Atkins diet. I actually was highly skeptical at first. I didn't really think it could be true. Okay. Because I was taught that this is a horrible, dangerous diet. Don't do it. But at that point, I'm like, well, I'm out of options. Better than pills. Like, I've done everything. I'll give this diet a try. And then three or six months from

now, I'll just go on the pills. And what happens? Within three months, my metabolic syndrome is completely gone. So translation means lower blood pressure, better cholesterol, you've lost some weight, and you're no longer pre-diabetic. Yes. But here's the breakthrough that happened 30 years ago that is changing the entire mental health field. What else happened?

I noticed dramatic improvement in my entire life. And I really, I couldn't believe it at first. Before the diet, I actually really always thought that there are just lucky people and unlucky people, that there are people, there are these people who are happy and peppy, and they have energy, and they have good lives, and they have good parents, and they have good genetics. And they have this saying, they like to work hard and play hard. And the playing hard in particular never made sense.

So what's the point? Because I was so exhausted. I was laying on the couch watching television every night. After working really long days sometimes in the hospital or at medical school or whatever, I worked my ass off, but I was so exhausted all the time that I was like, why on earth would anybody ever choose to go out and play hard? Aren't you all tired and burned out like I am? I just figured I just got the bad draw of the straws.

Like I don't have good genes or I didn't have good parents or I didn't have the good childhood. There's something wrong with me. There's just something wrong with me. I'm not like those other popular people. They are lucky and I'm not. And when I changed my diet, I noticed that I was becoming one of those people, that I now had energy to not only work hard, but I wanted to play hard too. And I had more confidence and motivation and energy and all of it. And I'm thinking,

what is this? This is impossible. This is not who Chris Palmer is. Chris Palmer is that nerdy little kid who's depressed and burned out and has, you know, worked his ass off to get where he is, but I'm that loser. I'm just that loser who has to work for everything that I get. And now all of a sudden, life is changing and and it's becoming effortless. Like what is this? My brain is once and for all finally starting to fire on all cylinders. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, life is gonna be wonderful and beautiful and easy and effortless because I don't know,

like I'm not, I don't have to work for it anymore. It's just happening. Like when your brain works well, I mean, our brains are the control center for our reality. They are, like it's hard to describe. I wanna say it is everything to say it is everything. It, and it is everything. It is our experience and perception.

It's all of it. I just love his passion. Can't you just hear how much he wants this for you? And here's what I also love about this conversation. He just explained how he had this huge breakthrough personally. And then he wanted to start to dig into why this change in his brain happened after simply changing his diet. And one of the things that I found very fascinating about Dr. Palmer's work is the results that he achieved with his very first patient. This patient had such fantastic and frankly shocking results that it inspired Dr. Palmer to take this very seriously. He went on

to research this phenomenon of the connection between your metabolic and your mental health. So after the break, I asked Dr. Palmer about that patient and the jaw-dropping results he saw. Stay with us because that's what you're going to hear next. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and you're listening to an interview I did here in Boston with Harvard's Dr. Chris Palmer, who is changing the way we look at mental health disorders using his brain energy theory. Now, Dr. Palmer, as you just learned, says your food could be making you mentally ill and it's also potentially the secret

to helping you become mentally well. And now we're gonna go and get into what does that really mean? So let's jump back into the interview. Dr. Palmer has just told you his own personal story, this breakthrough that he's had. He's now been a practicing doctor here at Harvard McLean's hospital. He's been practicing for a number of years, and he's about to tell you the very first patient

he used this new approach with. So this man is actually part of the story that completely upended my career as a psychiatrist. So I had been using lifestyle strategies, dietary strategies, with patients who had depression, anxiety, even personality disorders for years, actually almost a decade and a half at that point. But those were just depression and anxiety.

And then one of my patients with basically schizoaffective disorder, so it's a cross between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, he asked for my help to lose weight. And for a variety of reasons, we decided to try the ketogenic diet. This man, I just want to set the stage. This man had been my patient for eight years. He was tormented by his illness. This illness ruined his life. He had hallucinations and delusions every day.

He was convinced that people were out to get him, that people were trying to harm him, that he had been targeted. He was essentially a hermit. He was tortured to leave his home because he was convinced that people were reading his thoughts, that they were going to try to hurt him, that somebody was going to pull out a gun or a knife any moment and hurt him, that anytime somebody laughed in public, even if they were far away, he was convinced they were laughing at him, that they were part of the conspiracy, that they were all...

And how are you treating him? Like, how as a psychiatrist, you had been seeing him for eight years. I mean, was it medication? He had tried 17 different medications at this point. Wow. None of them stopped his symptoms. They maybe decreased his anxiety and agitation a little bit. They made him gain a tremendous amount of weight.

He gained over 100 pounds. He had been in and out of hospitals. He had been in and out of hospitals. He had been in and out of psychotherapy. He had been in group homes. And the reality is he was being treated at McLean Hospital, which right now is ranked number one in the United States for psychiatry. I don't say that to brag. I say that because that is the state of affairs in the mental health field. Even when people have access to the very best care,

they can end up like that. And in my mind, that is completely unacceptable now. But that's where we were at. That's where I was at. That's where a lot of people, unfortunately, tens of millions of people still are, that they think this is just what we have to do. And so anyway, this man now weighs 340 pounds.

He gets it in his head, I'm never gonna have a girlfriend if I don't lose some weight. I think I wanna try to lose some weight. And I'm thinking, good for you. You want to do something to help yourself. Great. I'm going to run with this. Let's do something about this. He had already tried several other diets unsuccessfully. They just didn't work for him. So for a variety of reasons, we try the ketogenic diet. I'm

just trying to help this guy lose weight now. I'm not thinking anything special is going to happen. Within two weeks, not only does he start losing weight, but I begin to notice dramatic improvement in his mood. He starts making better eye contact. He starts talking more. He's smiling more. He's kind of coming to life, coming back to life in a way that I had never known him for eight years. And I'm

thinking, this is really curious that you're feeling so happy. I'm thinking, well, maybe he's just happy because he's losing weight. Yeah. Makes everybody feel better that, you know, oh, I'm succeeding at losing weight, isn't that great? Now, he was still having hallucinations and delusions at this point. So I'm thinking he's just feeling a little better. The shocking thing to me was that about two months in, he spontaneously starts reporting to me, you know those voices that I hear all the time? They're starting to go away.

You're kidding. And then he says, you know how I always thought that there were these families controlling me and they targeted me and they were trying to torment me and they were trying to hurt me? Like, yeah. targeted me and they were trying to torment me and they were trying to hurt me. Like, yeah. I'm really thinking, oh, are we going to talk about that for the millions time again? Oh my God, we've talked about that a million times now.

Yeah, what about it? He said, I don't think that's true anymore. As I think about it, I don't think they're doing that. And as I say it out loud, it sounds kind of crazy. Maybe it never was happening. And maybe what's happening is that I have had schizophrenia all along, like everybody's been trying to tell me that I refused to believe and maybe my schizophrenia is going away. What was it like for you as a psychiatrist to see somebody emerge from that cloud of a severe mental illness?

You know, early on, the early days, I really actually had trouble believing what I was seeing. He lived with his father, and so his father knew him well and was very involved in his care. And fortunately, he also had been going to a psychologist at McLean Hospital for counseling. I actually on several occasions had to go to both of them, both the father and the psychologist and say, I'm having trouble believing what I'm seeing. Are you two seeing dramatic improvement in our patient. Is he getting better in a way that you've never seen? Cause I've never seen him like this.

And both of them said, yes, we don't know what's happening. Chris, you're the doctor, like figure it out. Like what is happening? What are you doing? What is going on? And all that you did was change his diet. All that I did was change his diet. That man went on, has now gone on to lose 160 pounds and has kept it off to this day almost seven years later. That man got so much better at one point

that he was able to move out of his father's home. He was able to go to school and get a certificate. He was able to perform improv in front of a live audience, started teaching karate, has done amazing things since then. I wanna say for the record, he is not cured. He was on a tremendous amount of medication. It's been over seven years and we still haven't been able to fully get him off of everything. He's on a lot less than he ever was. And as we get him off of

medicines, a lot of times things can get worse initially and then they start getting even better than they were before. So it's this very rocky road. And by no means, I want to be clear with your listeners, please don't try to do this on your own. It can be very dangerous. It can be very dangerous. It can be very difficult. But the reality is I have many patients who have successfully gotten off their meds.

I have many people, hundreds and hundreds of people reaching out to me, actually thousands of people reaching out to me, sharing their stories of success, sharing with me how they have used metabolic treatment strategies, largely lifestyle treatment strategies that we know affect metabolism, that we know affect mitochondria. And they are sharing their stories of how they have recovered from chronic debilitating

mental illnesses all the way from chronic depression to bipolar to schizophrenia to eating disorders. People with anorexia nervosa have put their anorexia into remission for the first time in 20 or 30 years. Isn't this mind blowing? At this point in the interview, I was thinking, I wish I knew about this years ago, and I bet you're thinking the same thing, and you're probably also thinking about a ton of people that you want to send this conversation to right now.

But hold that thought, because there's a lot more that we need to dig into. I mean, personally, what I wanted to do was hear more about the research and the specific eating protocol that Dr. Palmer was using with his patients, and why on earth is it changing the mental health and the functioning of the brains of his patients and why on earth is it changing the mental health and the functioning of the brains of his patients? So stick around because there is so much more to this conversation. And after a short word from our sponsors,

you and I are gonna jump right back into this episode and this life-changing conversation with Dr. Palmer. I'll see you after the break. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and you're listening to an interview that I did here in our studios in Boston with Harvard's Dr. Chris Palmer. And I'm so glad that you're still with me because you now know the remarkable results that Dr. Palmer achieved in his own life, that he's achieving with patients here in Boston, and I'm sure you're curious. All right, what exactly is this eating particle? What are the lifestyle changes?

What do I need to do? Why is this working? And so as we drop back into this conversation, you're going to hear Dr. Palmer explain the science of why he believes mental illness is a metabolic issue. And I've just asked him, how the heck can you tie together metabolism and mental health? So we have long known that there are biopsychosocial causes for mental illness. So that means neurotransmitters, hormones, genetics play a role, stress and trauma play a role, loneliness, addiction, all of these things can play a role in mental illness.

But to date, nobody has been able to put them all together in one coherent way. What I am arguing is that cutting edge research over the last 20 years once and for all helps us connect those dots. In the simplest way to put it, what I am saying is that people who have brain disorders, their brains are either doing something that they're not supposed to be doing or failing to do something that they should be doing. Those people with brain disorders have a metabolic problem affecting their brain. And that is how we can tie together neurotransmitter imbalances, hormone imbalances, stress, trauma,

loneliness, all of it, and put it together in one clear way. You now call this the brain energy theory. I do. And explain that so that anybody listening can understand what the brain energy theory is. So, in a nutshell, it says that mental disorders are metabolic disorders affecting the brain. What does metabolic mean?

So, most people think of metabolism in this really simplistic way. They think that it's burning calories and it affects our weight. So I don't want to take away from that. There is no doubt the metabolism does influence how much you weigh, does influence your body weight, it affects your athletic performance. So those things are true, but the reality is metabolism is so much more than that. Metabolism is a fundamental part of all living organisms. So in the simplest terms, I would say metabolism is taking food and

oxygen and some other things like vitamins and nutrients and turning those things into energy or building blocks that are used to maintain or grow cells. It's humans eating and drinking and breathing in oxygen and breathing out carbon dioxide. Those are foundational to metabolism, but in fact, they play a role in every cell within our body. They play a role in the way our cells develop, the way they function or don't function properly, whether those cells live or die.

And just so that I am staying with you, doc, I want to make sure I understand when you say metabolic. So do you have like an analogy that would help someone like me that does not have a medical degree? I'm not a neuroscientist, I wanna be able to leave this conversation and both explain it to my daughter who has anxiety or to my son or myself who has ADHD

or my husband who has treatment resistant depression. I wanna be able to explain this. So when you use that big word metabolic, what are you referring to in the body and how can we understand it at a simple way? So, in many ways, metabolism is ridiculously complicated. I was afraid you were going to say that. No, it really is.

And so, I'm going to give you a few analogies. But for context, I need people to understand that I get, as a scientist and as a researcher, I get, it is very, very complicated. Great. I appreciate you being willing to help those of us that are not planning on getting a PhD in this to actually understand the word metabolic. Because it's input process and then how it changes your body. But I like visuals and I know you have a really good one. So the easiest way to help people at least understand

the complexity of metabolism is like traffic in the city. And so if I ask you what controls traffic in the city. And so if I ask you what controls traffic in the city or what are all of the factors that play a role in whether there are traffic jams or no traffic jams? Number of cars, number of stop lights, patterns of the traffic flow, whether or not there's construction, accidents. Everything you said is true. So, on one level, it's complex, right? It's really complicated. But if we really want to get to the heart of what causes traffic accidents and what causes traffic jams.

We also want to think about what's controlling all of these cars. At the end of the day, it's the drivers inside of the cars. The drivers, if all of the drivers are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, traffic is going to flow optimally. And if the drivers start messing up, if they're on their cell phone, if they're having a road rage day, if they're flipping people off, if they're slamming on the brakes for no good reason, if they're swerving into the other lane, traffic accidents, traffic jams begin to occur.

So the end of the day, the drivers are foundational to the flow of traffic. Agree. And with metabolism and human metabolism, it is equally complex. There are lots of things. There are biological, psychological, social things. Our diet, sunlight exposure, our sleep, the temperature of the room we're in, our age, all of those things play a role in metabolism. But if you really look foundationally in a scientific way, it will what's really at

the heart of it, it's these tiny things in our cells called mitochondria. And they are actually foundational to metabolism. They are a part of the definition of metabolic problems or metabolic dysfunction. And the great news is that we can use cutting-edge research about them over the last 20 years to once and for all start to piece together this complex mental health puzzle of what causes mental illness. And much more exciting news is if you then ask the question, well, if there's a problem with mitochondria or metabolism, what can we do about it?

Common sense lifestyle strategies like changes in diet, exercise, sleep, stress reduction, managing substance use. Those things can actually correct metabolic problems so they can help people lose weight if they've got a metabolic problem. They can help type 2 diabetics reverse their diabetes. They can help prevent heart attacks. What I am here to say is that those same strategies in the way that they can play a role in your blood glucose, in the way that they can play a role in your weight, in the way that they

can play a role in preventing heart attacks, they can help restore your brain function and help your brain work better so that you no longer have what's called a mental illness. Wow. I wanna go back to the analogy, because I was with you and I'm like, okay, the drivers, the drivers are the power, the drivers, okay, the drivers. And then if you now take that analogy

and we talk about metabolism, are the drivers in your metabolism yourselves or are they something else? They're the mitochondria inside ourselves. And what is mitochondria? So mitochondria, for people who've had like high school biology, they probably remember mitochondria. I had high school biology.

You don't remember. I do not remember. That's OK. OK. That's OK. So most people who have heard of them have heard that they are the powerhouse of the cell. And what that means is that they are taking food and oxygen

and turning it into energy. So mitochondria are controlling most of those processes in human cells. They are controlling our metabolism. But in many ways, the cutting-edge research part of it is that they're also playing a role in hormone production. Things like cortisol, estrogen, and testosterone, the first step in the synthesis of those hormones occurs within mitochondria. Mitochondria play a role in producing and regulating neurotransmitters like serotonin or dopamine. Mitochondria play a role in turning inflammation on and off. Mitochondria are affected by all of those lifestyle strategies, diet, exercise, sleep,

hormones, substances, substance abuse like cigarette smoking, alcohol, marijuana. But here's the thing. They're also affected by psychological and social factors. Trauma and stress affect our mitochondrial function, which then ends up affecting our metabolism, which then ends up making us or putting us at higher risk for developing a wide variety of mental illnesses all the way from PTSD to depression to anxiety to ADHD to bipolar, just schizophrenia, people with serious adverse childhood experiences. So horrible childhoods, trauma abuse, they're at higher risk for

developing essentially all of the mental illnesses. But guess what else they are at higher risk of developing? I have no idea. Obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart attacks, and they are at very high risk of dying early deaths from those things. And you're here to say that if we focus on improving our metabolic health, which is food, sleep, lifestyle choices that are largely within our control at a cellular level, from the inside out, you can heal all of this and have profoundly better health outcomes.

Yes. I think for most people, that is 100% true. There are people who probably have rare genetic conditions or hormone imbalances or infections, chronic infections or other things that are also impacting their metabolism, they may need additional strategies. So I'm not here to say that I've got the cure all for every woman with mental illness. The second thing that I want to say is that the devil is in the details. I don't want anybody to come away from this conversation thinking that Chris

Palmer is saying that if people with schizophrenia just ate a little more broccoli, it would cure their schizophrenia because that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that a dietary intervention is simple as just eat more vegetables is going to cure schizophrenia. What are you saying? But what I am saying is that dietary interventions, such as the ketogenic diet, which starts to get very science-oriented, but if we use science-informed dietary strategies like a ketogenic diet,

I actually have been getting people with horrible lifelong schizophrenia better. Some of them are putting their horrible debilitating mental illnesses into remission sometimes off of all psychiatric meds and living dramatically better lives. Whoa. I want to see if I can give this back to you because I am on a mission to make sure everyone listening can translate this extraordinary research of yours and these groundbreaking findings about the connection between food and your metabolism and every aspect of your health.

But for this conversation, your brain functioning and you being mentally well. So I think we all understand generally. All right. If I'm a smoker, if I eat a lot of processed food, if I sit around on my couch all day and I'm playing video games, or I'm just looking at social media, that's not good for my heart. That you can predict based on people's habits, who's likely to have a heart attack

because their food that they're intaking, the way that their lifestyle choices are impacting their health, it's pretty evident that that could lead to a heart attack. But what you're basically saying is that after 30 years of research, those same lifestyle choices of food and sleep and exercise and breathing and how your body metabolizes this is changing the functioning and structure of your brain? Absolutely. That is, in my mind, incontrovertible now. So in the same way that diet and exercise

can affect your heart and your liver and your kidneys and your ovaries, guess what? The brain isn't immune. I don't know who on earth came up with a concept that the brain is somehow the only organ in the human body that is immune from all of those things when every other organ system is being affected. The brain is being affected.

And what are the symptoms? How do we know when the brain is being affected? It comes out as what we call mental illness. So some people might have symptoms of ADHD, others might have symptoms of an anxiety disorder, others might have chronic unrelenting depression, and in extreme metabolic dysfunction, extreme cases, people might develop schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other debilitating conditions.

What are the symptoms that you have a metabolic issue? So, profound metabolic issue would be serious obesity. Yep. Type 2 diabetes, history of a heart attack, history of metabolic syndrome or current symptoms of metabolic syndrome, which include high blood pressure, insulin resistance, bad lipids. We're looking at two biomarkers in particular, which are low HDL cholesterol, which is the quote-unquote good cholesterol. So if you have low levels, that's bad. And then high triglycerides.

So if triglycerides are really, really high, that is a bad sign as well. Okay. So, if you have any of these things in yourself or somebody that you care about deeply or I would venture to say any of the mental health issues that are not tied to something specific going on in your life but but that are just kind of chronic. This is an indication. These are symptoms that you have something going on with your metabolism. A hundred percent. Got it. Okay. So what's interesting about this is you're basically saying

you got somebody walk into your office with ADHD or depression or chronic anxiety and or schizophrenia or severe OCD or Tourette's or anything that any human being may struggle with. You as a Harvard trained psychiatrist now see those as a symptom of a metabolic disorder. I do. And that has completely changed the way I practice psychiatry. Wow. That is so cool.

Because I think since the history of time, people have walked into a psychiatrist or psychologist or a psychoanalyst. Like, I don't know. There's a bazillion people you could see with some kind of mental health struggle or some severe issue that they're dealing with from a mental health perspective. And we attack the mental health issue without going neck down into the body. And when you say, whoa, anybody in your life that has, and you've listed a lot of things

from anxiety to depression to OCD to PTSD to being on the autism spectrum to schizophrenia to bipolar disorder to trauma, all of these things. Imagine how transformative it is to look at somebody that you love and go, oh, this mental health issue is a symptom of your metabolic system being completely out of whack. You need to understand this is a symptom of a metabolic disorder in their body. Holy shit, I think I just got this. That's, you have said it very articulately and very clearly and plainly, and I don't disagree with anything you've said.

And it has profound implications because in case people think like, well, but I'm doing okay, I have a mental illness and my treatment isn't so terrible. I wanna be clear by ignoring the metabolic root causes. People with mental illness are at increased risk for developing over their lifetime a broad range of medical conditions.

They are at higher risk of developing all of the metabolic disorders. They're higher risk of developing obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, they are at higher risk of developing autoimmune disorders and other conditions. And on average, people with mental illness are dying early deaths. On average, for all of the psychiatric diagnosis, if you take them all together, ADHD, anxiety, personality disorders, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, if you take all of them and

put them all together, on average, men are losing 10 years of life and women are losing seven years of life. And when we look at what are they dying of, the primary cause of death is heart attacks. They are losing essentially over about 15% of their lifespan because they are dying of metabolic problems, but they're dying early. They are more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease. And so the ends of their lives are not pretty. They are not great. They are things that we all want to avoid. And we, the mental health field,

are largely ignoring all of that, thinking it's not our problem. It is our problem. These are people, these are human beings coming to us, begging us for help, asking us for help. We need to offer them comprehensive human healthcare. And that means not only reducing their mental symptoms, it also means keeping them happy

and healthy as long as possible, helping them live full, vibrant lives, helping them prevent getting these other medical conditions and helping to prevent them getting dementia when they get older. We owe it to them to do that. And your work is offering a brand new pathway of treatment for people and hope. It is. Like, how excited are you that you are now the head of this new institute that Harvard just named, that people are taking your research after decades of doing this in your own practice very, very seriously. It's actually sometimes very overwhelming and humbling.

And every now and then I'm like waiting to wake up from my grandiose dream. What is your dream? My dream is to help people who are suffering from mental illness who aren't getting better with current treatments. And there are tens of millions of those people. And it doesn't just affect those people, it affects their family members, their parents, their spouses, their siblings. It affects society at large because those are our co-workers who call in sick a little more

often or maybe they just aren't as productive as they should be. And in extreme cases, those are the people that end up in our prison system. They end up living on the streets. They end up using drugs and overdosing or they end up dead from other causes. And there are literally tens and tens of millions of those people. Well, actually, if you take the ripple of the impact of having anybody in your life that you love struggling? It's every human being on the planet that's impacted by this.

It is everybody knows someone, everybody. And if anybody listening to this thinks, I don't, then I have some sad news for that person. The people in your life just don't trust you enough to open up and be completely honest with you about what they are going through themselves or what they are going through with their family members because I guarantee you, based on the statistics, everybody knows somebody. either an immediate family member or a nephew or niece or cousin, uncle, everybody's got somebody.

And when you look at the devastation to these people's lives. I'm not talking about the one in four American women taking an antidepressant who many of whom are doing well. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about people's lives who are ruined by mental illness. I'm talking about your nephew or niece that is not doing well in school. The parents are tearing their hair out, trying to understand what do we need to do to help this kid. We've already tried 10 pills. He's in weekly therapy, nothing's working. Everybody's blaming and shaming the parents.

The parents are clearly messing up. It's clearly their fault. They're not doing enough to help this kid. Or it's social media or kids these days are weak, or what's wrong with this generation? There is so much blame and frustration and anger aimed at the people that are struggling and at the systems around them

that are ineffective at helping. Yeah. And what I'm here to say is that at the same time that rates of obesity are skyrocketing, at the same time that rates of prediabetes and diabetes are skyrocketing, for those who don't know, 50% of U.S. adults currently has prediabetes or diabetes. 50%? One in two United States adults has prediabetes or diabetes. At the same time that the metabolic health of Americans is going down the toilet, so is their mental health.

Those are not coincidences. They are interrelated. The brain is an organ just like the heart is. It is being impacted by all of the same factors, whether you want to blame diet or social media or a lack of exercise or laziness, whatever you want to blame, microplastics, all of the environmental toxins. The reality is all of those things are playing a role. I'm not here to say that all of those things are exonerated. They definitely are playing a role. What I'm here to say is that at the same time that they affect people's weight and their diabetes, they are affecting

their brains and we call it mental illness. And we can in fact figure this out. We can understand the science and we can give people real solutions. Go off, Dr. Palmer. I could listen to you all day because you know what, it makes so much sense. It does seem complicated when you're in the thick of it, but the way you explain it, it does seem so simple. In one way, it's overwhelmingly complicated science, I get it, but in another way, if you really understand that science, it leads to really simple, obvious, concrete solutions.

I guess I have one thing which is, because our audience is so hungry. Tell me what to do. Dr. Palmer, tell me what to do. Dr. Palmer, tell me what to do. And I know ever since your work has become public and the Institute at Harvard and McLean has been announced and you've been appearing on podcasts, I know that people from around

the world are calling and begging you to work with them. And you are under an avalanche of people who just want your help. And I understand why, because you are offering something that feels accessible. You are offering stories of hope. And so, if I realize that this is not medical advice, but given that you've got thousands of people that call you every week begging you for medical advice, is it possible for you to give a broad stroke recommendation for people to follow like for one month, for 21 days? For people who are suffering from mild to moderate disorders, their safety is not in danger. They have not

been suicidal. They haven't tried to hurt any themselves or anyone else. They're not hallucinating or delusional. If I had to give generic advice, what's the highest bang for the buck? I would say, try a ketogenic diet for three months, and then we'll see how it goes. We actually have a tremendous amount of science on the ketogenic diet. Most people know the keto diet as a fad diet, a weight loss diet, a dangerous diet.

So, unbeknownst to most people, the ketogenic diet was developed over 100 years ago by a physician for one and only one purpose. It was not weight loss. It was to actually stop seizures. The ketogenic diet is now an evidence-based treatment. We have lots of randomized controlled trials. We have gold standard meta-analyses and the medical literature proving that this is effective, it is reputable, it is legitimate.

The ketogenic diet is an evidence-based treatment for treatment-resistant epilepsy. And what that means is that if somebody has seizures and medications don't stop their seizures or even brain surgery doesn't stop their seizures, the ketogenic diet can often work in a way that medications and even brain surgery may not have worked for those people. Why? And so that's the beautiful thing for my research.

So we have decades of research looking at the ketogenic diet, trying to figure out how on earth does this diet stop seizures when our great pills didn't, like what is going on here? And so we know that the ketogenic diet is having profound effects on the brain function. It's changing neurotransmitters. It changes gene expression.

It decreases brain inflammation and body inflammation as well. It central to my thesis, it actually improves mitochondrial function, which in a nutshell means it's improving metabolism and in particular brain metabolism. And so one of the great things about the ketogenic diet, like when it's used for epilepsy, is that people don't have to do it for life. Most often people only need to do it for like two to five years. What am I eating?

Walk me through a day of being on the keto diet. So the keto diet in a nutshell is very low in carbohydrates, moderate in protein, and high in fat. So what you would eat if you were doing a ketogenic diet, again, I want to even set the stage. There are vegan versions of a ketogenic diet. Okay. Vegetarian versions, omnivore versions, where you're eating both animal sourced and plant sourced foods. Okay.

And even carnivore versions of this diet, where all you're eating is meat and eggs and stuff like that. So this is very inclusive everybody, but let's just say you and I are going to breakfast, lunch and dinner today. What are we ordering? So what I might eat, if I were eating a ketogenic diet, I am an omnivore. I eat both animal

sourced and plant sourced foods. I would wake up and I might have eggs and bacon or sausage or some kind of meat. Let's go. It sounds like Sunday brunch, Dr. Palmer. I might add extra butter. If I need more fat, I might add extra butter to the eggs. So some people might look at me making my eggs thinking, why are you putting all that butter in your scrambled eggs? And I would say because I need the extra fat for lunch and dinner, similar meals,

I would probably have a protein source. So that could be steak, chicken, salmon, poultry. And I would have low-carb vegetables. So that could include broccoli, spinach, any kind of lettuces, cauliflower, cucumbers, pickles, things like that. I would take my pick. When I prepared those vegetables, I would put extra sources of fat on those vegetables.

I would put olive oil and plain vinegar. So that might be my serving. I might emphasize nuts and avocados because those are very high in fat and typically thought of as healthy sources of fat. So how long would you suggest that somebody, if they're going to start with the ketogenic diet, how long should you try it and what would you look out for, Dr. Palmer, to know that it's actually impacting you in a positive way? So I would recommend getting some information on a well-formulated ketogenic diet. So you

want to do it right. You want to include enough healthy types of foods. People sometimes need extra electrolytes like sodium, potassium, magnesium when they get started on the diet. And nonetheless, there's this thing called the keto adaptation phase or keto flu. So the first week or two in particular can be very rough. I'm just going to let people know. People can feel weak, hungry, hungry, dizzy, irritable, other things. Really? Why?

Because they are basically withdrawing from sugar or carbohydrates. More importantly, their body is trying to do this shift from burning primarily on carbohydrates to running on a combination of carbohydrates and fats as fuel sources. For some people, that can be an easier transition. For others, it can be a more difficult transition. Let's just say you get the keto flu. We're now on the other side of the keto flu. We're starting to perk up, what are you going to feel and how do you know if it's working?

So the first thing that most people will start to feel is an antidepressant effect. And so they will start to notice that they just feel lighter, they have a little more energy, their brain starts working a little better. Some people might notice that their sleep is feeling more restorative. So if there's somebody who usually has to use an alarm, push the snooze button several times, they might start to notice that it's easier to wake up in the morning. They get going faster than normal. Some people will notice if you're a power lifter, for instance, or a weight

lifter, you will notice a decline in your ability to lift weights for about two months. And it will come back. For people using this for mental health, it's usually not a lifelong diet. What? A lot of people will do it for one to five years. They actually reinvigorate their metabolism, or most importantly, what that means to me is that they're improving their mitochondrial health. And that actually can then persist so that you've actually done some healing work on your body. And so that if you go back to a whole foods,

still a healthy diet, I'm not encouraging people to go back to a junk food diet with a lot of processed foods. But if they start adding back carbohydrates, even complex carbohydrates, whole grains, or potatoes, and other things, they may do extraordinarily well. And again, I want to be clear. I don't necessarily recommend the ketogenic diet for everyone.

Not everybody needs it. Some people can just get rid of the junk food and the processed foods. Some people can just get rid of the extra sugar in their diet and do spectacularly well. So they might do well on a paleo diet or whole food, whole 30 or a vegetarian or vegan, whole food, plant-based diet. There are lots of options. Okay, great. So eating healthy.

What's the next step in your brain energy protocol? Try to exercise a little more than you're currently doing. Is that all I have to do? If you're... Like if I'm doing zero, are you talking one day of resistance training is enough or do you... Would you want to see me out three days? If you're doing zero, do anything.

So if you did one day of resistance training a week, but you did most of your major muscle groups and you did it to the point of failure, that would be more than enough. I love it. But you've got to go to failure. If you're only going to work out once a week, you've got to go to failure. We need to build those muscles, which means you're not just going to lift it a couple of times and say, oh, I'm tired. You're going to go until you can't go anymore. Just one set, but you're going to go until you can't go anymore. But it could be just taking a walk after dinner every night. If you can do it every night, it doesn't have to be a long walk.

It could be a 10 minute walk, whatever. Just get out of the house, get away from the screen, walk around the block. The third thing, I want you to prioritize sleep. How much do I need? You need at least seven or eight hours. The ideal way to know if you're getting adequate sleep is, are you able to get out of bed reasonably okay?

Or are you pushing the snooze button? Are you exhausted? Are you dragging yourself out of bed? If you're dragging yourself out of bed, you're not getting enough sleep. You should be able to wake up and get out of bed and it should not be torture. If it's torture, you're not getting enough sleep. Your body's begging you to stay in bed. You want to stay in bed. Well, you need more sleep. Go to bed earlier. That's the solution. You're probably waking up for

a reason because you have to be somewhere like work or school at a certain time. That means you needed to go somewhere like work or school at a certain time. That means you needed to go to bed an hour or two hours or whatever earlier that night, the night before. So get your ass in bed, turn off the television, the computer, whatever, go to bed. Try to get more sleep. Reduce your use of harmful substances. That means alcohol.

If you're really struggling with a mental health condition, give me three months off alcohol. I'm not asking for a lifetime. I'm not asking for forever. Three months off alcohol because we're trying to give your brain a chance. If you were a professional athlete training for a marathon, your coach would tell you no alcohol, none, zero, zero tolerance. If you were training for the Olympics, your coach would tell you zero alcohol.

I don't want to hear it. Guess what else? No marijuana, no CBD, no smoking, no vaping, none, period. End of story, don't argue, don't talk back, just don't do it. Don't do those things. Why? Because they're all negatively impacting your brain metabolism.

Your brain metabolism is begging for help. We see it in the symptoms that you're exhibiting. We want to give you a fighting chance. You can introduce these things again in the future when you're healthy, when you're healthier and more resilient and you can tolerate a drink every now and then. Great. But for now, while we're trying to help you heal and recover, we're going to give your brain a fighting chance. We're going to do those things. We're going to give it three months, and then we're going to see how it's going.

My honest guess is if people could really do that, it's a lot to ask, I know. And people may not be able to do it all at once. But isn't your mental health and your happiness and the vitality that you feel and the peace that you feel worth it? I mean, it's 90 measly days. The ketogenic diet, get a good night's sleep, stop drinking and smoking for 90 measly days,

and take a walk every night after dinner. That's what you're asking. And you're saying based on 30 years as a Harvard psychiatrist and the world's leading expert in the brain energy theory which you created and metabolic health, this should remarkably improve the way that you feel. It will.

I'm hearing from thousands of people around the world who are doing that alone and they feel remarkably better. If it's helpful, I just wanna say this. When people are really severely depressed and down and out, they will say and they will think, why should I be alive at all? And now you're gonna ask me to give up the one thing

that gives me comfort, which is food or alcohol or vaping. Like I kind of sort of don't even wanna be alive anyway. And the only thing that gives me any bit of comfort for even five or 10 minutes are those things. I can't give those up. And what I say, I work with people like that all the time. And what I say to those people is I'm only asking for 90 days. I'm not asking for a lifetime. I'm saying, do you want to try to feel better? Would you like to get out of this living hell that you are in right now? And is it worth a 90 day experiment? Almost always, I can convince people to do it.

Again, they may not be able to do it all at once. So maybe we have to work on diet first and then add in some exercise and then add in. Let's get you off the vaping and then add in the sleep. But start with the diet. So I would start with the diet because the diet, the ketogenic diet can have profound effects on mood and energy. And when people just start to notice that little bit of improvement after the first or second week, that then gives them the energy to then give up the alcohol or the vaping or to start walking when they felt like they couldn't walk before. It gives them that little bit of hope,

and then they add those other interventions nine times out of 10. When I start people on the intervention, they will say, I'm definitely stopping all this crap in 90 days. Fine, Dr. Palmer, I'll do it for 90 days, but then I'm stopping. If I get them to 90 days and they are dramatically better, they will say there's no way in hell. I can go back to that living hell that I was just in. A few of them have gotten mad at me.

You tricked me. I know I'm stuck on this diet. Now I'm stuck on giving up alcohol or vaping. Like you tricked me. This wasn't the plan. And I'm like that you feel better. And they're like, yes, I feel like a new person. I can't believe I feel so good. And I'm like, well, maybe a few years, and then you'll have more resilience and you'll be able to add those things back. What more often than not, what people find is that they feel so much better that they don't wanna add those things back anymore because they realize those things

are gonna make me go backwards and I'm moving forward finally and I'm feeling better. Thank you for saying that because I know that when you're really in a dark hole and you don't think you can get better, and you're being asked, like for Chris, it was hitting the vape pen every day or hitting the weed pen every day or drinking bourbon just to numb out. And I didn't even realize the extent of it until the diagnosis came in, the thought of facing it

without those things was terrifying. And what's interesting as I was listening to you is I was thinking you're not giving up weed or alcohol, you're giving up depression. And Dr. Palmer, you are offering the hope, and more importantly, the medically proven results that it can work. It can. Any final thing you want to say, because there's a lot of people that are going to forward this to somebody in their life who has crippling anxiety or depression and having been in that

place myself and having been married to somebody who is struggling, I'll tell you what, when you're in a dark place, you are a stubborn son of a gun. And so could you speak directly to that person right now who isn't listening to their family, doesn't want to hear it as giving up hope, as a Harvard psychiatrist with 30 years under your belt, having worked with thousands and thousands of people and even cured major mental illnesses with this approach. What would you say? So, I think I would actually want to speak to them, not as the Harvard psychiatrist with

all of those credentials that you just list. And now with all the scientific knowledge that I have that emboldens me to know that what I'm saying to you is true, that I would want to speak to that person as somebody who's been there myself, somebody who suffered relentlessly for years from crippling depression. I couldn't get out of bed. I wanted to kill myself. I tried to kill myself several times. I could not imagine a future for myself. I really assumed that I would be dead before I turned 20. And that was really all but certain in my mind,

so there's no way I will be alive when I'm 20. certain in my mind, is that there's no way I will be alive when I'm 20. And what I would say to people is if I can get through that, because I really did believe that I would be dead, that I could not possibly live like this for the rest of my life. And it had been going on for years since I was a young child. If I can get better, so can you. And you just have to believe and you have, if you're skeptic, if you're doubting any of this, there's so much science

to back it up. And the reality is you really can do it for 30, for 90 days, for three months. You can do it. I have patients with horrible crippling schizophrenia who can do it. I have patients with bipolar disorder who can do it. I have patients with alcoholism and other diagnoses that can do it.

And if they can do it, so can you. And if they can do it, so can you. Amazing. Dr. Chris Palmer, change in the world. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Now, can you see why I was so excited to introduce you to Dr. Palmer? I love his passion and I love how tactical the information is. In fact,

the second I finished talking to him, I knew at least a dozen people that I was like, I got to send this conversation to them. They have to hear this. And I find an episode like this one so empowering because it not only makes me think differently, I'm sure it made you think differently about how you're taking care of yourself. But don't you love having something like this to be able to send to a friend or a family member? I mean sure it made you think differently about how you're taking care of yourself, but don't you love having something like this to be able to send to a friend or a family member? I mean, it can be really hard to get through to somebody that you love and make them understand why they need to take better care of themselves. So instead of you doing it, let Dr. Palmer do it.

I mean, he's the perfect person to speak to somebody. Why? He's been there, But he also has the credentials of being at Harvard for 30 years. I can't wait to hear how this impacts your life and how this episode as you share it impacts the lives of people that you love. And by the way, this is just part one of the resources

that Dr. Palmer is gonna provide you with. Because in the very next episode that I'm releasing, guess what? He's going to give you insight about a topic that everybody keeps writing in about and that is ADHD. Dr. Palmer is going to discuss neurodivergent conditions like ADHD and how your metabolism is impacting life with it. It can either help you, it can hinder you. So ADHD is coming next and until then, in case no one else tells you,

I wanted to make sure that I tell you, that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I wanna thank Dr. Palmer for giving you the information that is gonna help you do it. Alrighty, I'll talk second. So let me go to the top real quick. Thank you. Thank you. No problem. No problem. No problem. No problem. You're a freaking fantastic.

Time for lunch. All right. Wow. All right. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyer's right and what I need to read to you.

This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.