The Mel Robbins Podcast - Signs You’re Dealing With a Narcissist (New Research From World-Leading Expert Dr. Ramani)

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Today’s episode is a masterclass in narcissism.  If you want to know how to protect yourself from a narcissist, you first have to know how to identify one.  You’ll learn the top 10 personality traits to look for, how to handle a narcissist in your life (that you can’t avoid), the difference between ‘love bombing’ and infatuation, and a whole lot more. Joining Mel today is Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a clinical psychologist and one of the world’s leading experts on narcissism. Her mastery of all things narcissism has made her the #1 most requested guest on The Mel Robbins Podcast. Dr. Ramani has been researching this topic for over 20 years and is here to give you the wisdom, practical advice, and well-researched tools and tricks to navigate what is one of the most unpredictable experiences: being in a relationship with a narcissist.  According to Dr. Ramani, 1 in 5 people has narcissist traits, which means you know (and may love) someone who is a narcissist. After you listen, you’ll know what to do. For more resources, including links to Dr. Ramani’s book, website, and social media platforms, click here for the podcast episode page. Follow Mel: Get Mel’s free 29-page workbook to make this your best yearWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel’s newsletter         Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I just want to thank you, first of all, for tuning in. And you know what else I want to thank you for? I want to thank you for taking the time today to listen to something that could improve your life. I think that's pretty cool. And if you're one of the literally hundreds of thousands of new listeners to this podcast, I want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author

and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. And I'm on a mission to do one thing. I wanna inspire and empower you with tools and the expert resources that you deserve to create a better life. And one of my all-time favorite things to do on this podcast is introduce you to the people that have changed better life. And one of my all-time favorite things to do on this podcast is introduce you to the people

that have changed my life. And today I am honored to welcome the single most popular expert that we've ever had back to the Mel Robbins podcast. Today you're gonna meet somebody that is a really big deal for me. Her name is Dr. Ramanidh Dversala and she's helped me do a couple of things. First of all, she's helped me understand the topic of narcissism. She's also helped me heal from the damage that I've experienced from having narcissistic

relationships in my life. And she's taught me, and I think this is the biggest piece, to thrive. To thrive even as I have to deal with narcissistic personality types in my day-to-day life now, like you probably have to too. Dr. Romani has appeared on this podcast twice, and I cannot wait to welcome her back, to introduce her to you if you've never heard from her before, because this is the first time that she's been back in over a year. Dr. Romany is a licensed clinical psychologist. She practices in Los Angeles.

She's also one of the world's most respected and renowned experts and researchers on the topic of narcissism. She hosts the award-winning podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Today, she's here to talk about her brand new book, It Will Be a Runaway Best Seller. She has brand new research included in the book. The book is entitled, It's Not You. I love that title. I love that title because when you're dealing with narcissism, you think you're the problem. She's here to teach you, It's Not You. More importantly, she's's gonna teach you how can you heal from narcissistic relationships because boy, can they do damage. And today, she's back with new insights, with research,

and with the tools and strategies that has earned her a global falling. And because there's so much to cover about the topic of narcissism, I wanna say a couple of things. First of all, if you think you know everything there is to know about narcissism, guess what? You don't. Every time you listen to Dr. Romney promise you, you will learn something new. Plus, you're in a very different place. There are different people

in your life, so I guarantee you you're going to hear something today that is relevant to you right now. We're going to cover absolutely everything that you need to know based on the research to understand the topic of narcissism and to be able to spot a narcissistic personality style in people in your life. Dr. Romany is also going to walk you through new research about the four myths on narcissism. And she's going to talk about narcissism and her research in the context of relationships, friendships, work, and family. Understanding this personality style is critical so that you can stay in your power no matter who you're dealing with.

And before we jump into this amazing topic, you ask me all the time, hey, Mal, thank you so much for supporting me. How can I support you? Very, very simple. Please, wherever you're listening or watching to this show right now, please subscribe, please follow the show, especially if you're on YouTube, hit subscribe.

It truly helps a show like this. It allows me to bring amazing guests like Dr. Romany to you at zero costs. And as you listen today, and you gain all of this transformational information, please be generous with it. Please share this with anybody in your life who really needs to hear this information from Dr. Romany. One share can change the trajectory of someone else's life, so thank you in advance for doing

that. Now, without further ado, Dr. Romani Deversa. I am so glad that you're here. It's so great to see you. It's so wonderful to see you every time, every time. Well, I know that our audience is going to gobble up absolutely everything you have to say because you are our number one favorite expert of our audience of every single person that we have ever had on the show. You are also the expert with the highest number of YouTube views. You are the person who has driven the most questions to our inbox. We have a form on our website that is ask a question.

So in that form, in the DMs, and you are somebody that gets our listeners just coming back and wanting more and more and more. And I'm really excited that you are here to talk about your new work every single time that I sit down with you. I show up and I go, oh, I think I know what narcissism is. I've talked to Dr. Romney before. I get this, but I always learn something new from you. And what I'm really excited about is your brand new book has new research, new ways to think about narcissism, to spot narcissism. And so we're going to cover all of that today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here and helping all of us. Thank you so much. First of all, thank you. I'm humbled. I'm honored. I'm going to say

something interesting to you. I'm almost a little saddened that it was the number one episode. I'm like, I'm going to hype, but you know what I'm saddened is that that's how many people are being hurt. Every time I think we've dug deep into this, the stories, the experiences, because I have clients, for example, who have been in narcissistic marriages relationships 40, 45, 50 years, and they've said to me, nothing like this was being said 20 years ago, 25 years ago, nothing. And maybe I might have taken different action at that point. And they said, so it's really bittersweet to hear this now. They feel less crazy, but they're still suffering

and taking actions a little different now. So my point is that so many people don't know. I think everyone knows and then I meet someone who says, this was a revelation. So like I said, that's why I'm sort of, I'm humbled, I'm grateful, but I'm sad. What's going through my mind right now is that this is my personal introduction to narcissism in terms of what you just said. So the first time anybody said to me that there was a person in my life who is still in my life that is exhibiting the classic textbook behavior patterns, repeated behavior patterns of somebody

who's narcissistic was my own therapist. And I was talking to her about my anxiety and my grief and my confusion about this lifelong relationship with this particular person. And my therapist just flat-out said, well, you know, they're on the narcissistic personality disorder spectrum. And I'm like, what are you talking about? What do you mean? And she started to tick off all of these classic behavior patterns that I always thought were representative that there was something wrong with me. And then of course, I met you weeks later, and you and I have started this conversation about narcissism. And today, where I want to start is just let's cover first what is narcissism because the word is thrown around all over the place.

You are the world's leading expert. You are now piloting all of this academic research around narcissism. What do you want the person listening to know about narcissism? So narcissism is a personality style. I think it's actually really important for us to break out of this conversation of it as a disorder because that's really muddying the waters. We really don't get to say someone has a disorder unless they've sat in a room with a clinician and that clinician has observed them and assessed them and issued a diagnosis. And where a lot of people

get pushback is even sometimes the therapist will say, well, you shouldn't say your husband has narcissistic personality disorder unless you spoke into their therapist, which obviously they haven't. And obviously the husband hasn't been in therapy. So let's call it what it is, which is a personality style. And let's move the disorder piece off to the side. Okay. So narcissism is a personality style. It would be considered a maladaptive personality style because it's not good for relationships. It's a rigid personality style like most unhealthy personality style

where there's not a lot of flexibility. It's not something that changes. Personality in and of itself is pretty rigid for all of us. You have a personality, I have a personality. They can only change so much, right? But with someone who's narcissistic, I like to view yours or mine as maybe like really, really solid jello. It's a little bit of flexibility. I thought you were talking about my waist. Yeah, I got a whole lot of air right here. But the narcissistic person is like cement.

There's really no mook for it. So now let's talk about what it is. It is a personality style that's characterized by variable empathy. And I want us to talk about empathy, Mel, because that empathy part is gets a little bit dicey with narcissistic folks. Variable empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, selfishness, the need for validation and admiration, a need for control, a motivation by power, dominance, again, that need for control. They envy other people or they think other people envy them. They very much often live in fantasy worlds. That's sort of how it looks.

Okay. All of that is around a core of insecurity. And that insecurity is this sort of chronic sense of shame that's almost a volcanically trying to come up. The entitlement, the grandiosity, the arrogance all acts as the armor to keep that tamp down. And so as a result, narcissistic people are very reactive when they perceive criticism, when they're frustrated,

when they're disappointed. Why? Because it means they're not perfect. It means they're frustrated, when they're disappointed. Why? Because it means they're not perfect. It means they're not the grandiose ideal that they've created for themselves to protect themselves from that cauldron of shame that's always bubbling up. That is narcissism.

And the reason I put a pin in that empathy piece, they're not devoid of empathy, right? They're not psychopathic. In fact, the challenge becomes, you know narcissistic people, I know narcissistic people, they're actually really good at sort of, if you will, faking the empathy. Their empathy is quite performative. It's very transactional. And narcissistic people know that empathy sells, that empathy creates social connections, and above all else, that empathy gets them supply.

People like people with empathy, like, oh, this empathy thing is working out for folks. So I'm going to try this. I'm worried about your feelings. How are you feeling you okay? So they can turn it on long enough to draw someone in or convince other people that they're empathic. So they're able to almost use it as a tool, as a tactic, as a stratagem, in some cases even as a weapon. So that's what I'm saying. It's not fair to say they have no empathy or even low empathy. It's variable empathy. When they feel good, when their star is rising, when things are going the way they want, they are very empathic. That's why you will see, for example, a spouse may go up to their partner

who had a great day at work. They killed it. And the partner's like, Hey, tell me about your day. How was it? And that person's thinking like, Oh, God, well, I gotta tell you, I had a little bit of a hard day. Let me tell you, how can I help you? How can I help you? So that's the Wednesday. And on Friday, that same spouse thinks, well, he was so empathic on Wednesday, I'm gonna tell him how this problem's going at work. Well, that same narcissistic spouse didn't have such a good day on Friday. Why are you telling me your problems?

Do you think I have time for your stuff? All you do is complain about work. That flip from Mr. I'm gonna give you advice and I believe in you on Wednesday to why are you wasting my time on Friday? That flip-flop is the narcissistic relationship. On Wednesday, he seemed like one heck of an empathic guy. So let's start with the narcissistic personality style versus somebody who's just vain or

conceited. What is the difference between somebody who's a little self-centered versus somebody that truly has a narcissistic personality style? It's such a great question, especially in the era of social media. Social media has brought the conceit and the vanity up to a level that's unparalleled in human history. Do you and I are old enough? Do you remember back in the day we take a camera on vacation and we'd try to get that

picture in front of the monument. And then we had a lot of pictures with just our eyes and just our mouth, right? We didn't really try to take selfies because more often then we had to get the film developed so now I've wasted like four of these precious, yeah. So you get that. So now this idea of the selfie, the performative self,

the branded self, and then how much we're looked at all the time, not only by ourselves, but by everybody else, has taken vanity and almost turned it into something normative. We got to keep that in mind, right? We have to view also narcissism on a spectrum now, right? It's not an either or, it's not that you're a narcissistic or you're not. At the mild end of the spectrum, that's where the vanity hangs out. These are what I call more Instagram narcissists. Lots of selfies. Look at me. Isn't my dinner interesting?

Isn't what I did this weekend oh so interesting? Please look at me. Don't you want to hear my review of the movie? No, Siskel and Ebert. I don't. You don't know things. Please stop. But that's the world we're in.

Those people are annoying. They're immature, they're emotionally stunted. They're probably not the person you're gonna go to on the day you get really bad news and need support. They're those people, okay? Are they harmful? You may not wanna be married to them. It would stink if they were your parent.

This is the parent who is your friend, but was never really there with emotional depth. So if you had a significant relationship with one of those mild, superficial, narcissistic folks, it's certainly not good for you. If they're your friend, I always say have a few of those mild narcissists around. They're great to have for a party. Pop them out then. So when we get to the moderate and severe ends, obviously it's a different game.

So where vanity and superficiality become narcissism is when we get into those core elements of the empathy issues and above all else entitlement. There's some really interesting research that came out in 2017 about the phenomenology of narcissism. What I loved about this research is that the one pillar that is universal in all narcissism is entitlement.

So if that vain person, look at me, look at my breakfast, aren't like, look at my shirt, look at my this, but they're never treating a server rudely. They wait their turn in line. They don't think they're more special than someone else. I'm going to tell you now, I don't think they're narcissistic. So that vain person can just sort of be superficial, maybe a little vapid, maybe a little immature.

But if they're not doing those sorts of interpersonal antagonistic things, not a narcissist. That makes me feel so much better. Because I like the distinction. It makes sense to me that somebody can be really annoying and vain and certainly social media is fueling a lot of this, but that's different than being harmful. Very different. And if I think through everybody in my life that I personally believe has a narcissistic personality style, the

entitlement piece is there. There is that sense of I deserve better, I deserve this, this sense of being wronged or kind of offended if your breakfast is taking too long or offended if you don't do what, you know, they want you to do. And so that distinction is incredibly helpful. Yes, it's everything because it's the entitled person doesn't just feel special. They have to be more special than you. Does that make sense? There's a difference. That's also something brand new that I've just learned from you. Yeah, that's entitled.

That distinction of entitlement and that they, and I think it's particularly helpful when you're dealing with somebody in your family. Yes. Or dealing with somebody that you're in a relationship with, that there's entitlement that is directed at other people like somebody that is, you know, the bartender at a bar or somebody that is working at an airport and the line is moving too slow and they're aiming at them. But I think it is profoundly disorienting when it gets aimed at you and it's a family member or it's a spouse.

One other thing I'd love to tease out because we're talking about this as being on a spectrum and that is a personality style. Is that every time I talk to you, I start to wonder, oh, shit, do I have narcissistic personality style? Is this something in everybody? Is it normal to worry that you are narcissistic? Does it mean you're narcissistic if you think you're narcissistic? So a lot of people grapple with this. It's always fun we say the ones who are

grappling and worrying that they're narcissistic usually aren't the ones who are narcissistic, right? No one thing that I mentioned, the entitlement or the grandiosity or the arrogance or the empathy deficits or the vanity or the selfishness or the admiration seeking, none of those by themselves define narcissism, right? A carrot isn't soup. A carrot is a carrot. Okay. Okay.

It might be something in a soup, but by itself it's a carrot. By itself, arrogance is arrogance. When you put it in there with the chicken and the broth and the celery and the stuff, now you got a soup, right? So we have to remember that you got to have the whole soup. I personally, Malinus this is a little bit controversial. I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I know some people use that term.

I'm not a fan because by definition, narcissism is unhealthy. So why is it unhealthy? It's unhealthy because it puts you at odds with other people. It harms other people. And here's where it gets interesting. If somebody has a personality trait that in the world, the way it's organized now is more likely to make them more successful,

more wealthy narcissistic people are more likely to get romantic partners, they're more likely to be in leadership. All the things that we think are success narcissistic people have. So you'd think, sign me up. The problem is this whole stuff that's narcissism harms other people. I as a psychologist, and I feel very grounded in this, we are a social species. We exist in social groups.

That something that harms that connective tissue is not healthy for a human being, I don't care if you have a lot of money. So I'm going to say there is no such thing as healthy narcissism. And when we talk about it, people are usually pulling out a strand like assertiveness. Assertiveness is healthy, right? But raging at other people because you didn't get your way, that's not healthy. And so I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I believe in healthy self-advocacy. I believe in healthy assertiveness. I believe in healthy sense of self. But when people stop and wonder, am I narcissistic? I really ask them,

do you stop and consider how your words affect other people? Do you stop and concern yourself with the feelings of other people? Every so often putting ourselves first doesn't make us a narcissist. Telling your friend like, I can't come to your birthday dinner. I have worked 16 hour days every day this week. I love you. I'd love to take you out to dinner next week. Your friend may be mad at you. I'm not saying your friend's going to be like, good for you, for yourself.

There. Right. And then you say, I am so sorry. I am aware, but I can't do this. I'm pushing myself too hard. And you really make a concerted effort to create the time with a friend. I don't consider that narcissistic. Here's what I am thinking about right now is that if you're self-reflective and you

are a reasonable, empathetic, rational human being who's doing their best. If you're in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, it almost seems like the default is to explain away the behaviors that you're ticking off. Oh, they're raging at this person because they're tired. Oh, they're this way because of that. Oh, now they're being nice to me." And so, how do you get to a point in your life where you can say to yourself, this is definitely somebody who has this narcissistic personality style? Is it really like looking for the entitlement piece? Because I personally have really struggled with this because I am so quick to explain away the behavior.

Okay. Here's where you can do something that I think is probably one of the greatest balancing acts that if everyone could learn this, could actually help them a lot. You can explain away the behavior and understand that they're narcissistic at the same time. One thing I talk about in the new book you had talked, referenced is this idea of multiple truths. And nowhere does that matter more than when you're in a narcissistic relationship, that multiple things can

simultaneously be true. They did have a bad day at work because they didn't get the promotion they wanted. And that's what's driving their anger. The way they're treating me is unacceptable. Those two things are true. That person's behavior, we could explain it, again, the minutiae of it, it's not acceptable. Does that make sense?

Just because we can explain something doesn't make it acceptable. And I think one of the dangers of psychology is we can explain things. But we sometimes think, well, if you can explain it, then it's okay. We have to be able to hold in consciousness those two things. This is why they did it, and it is absolutely unacceptable. I think that is the biggest breakthrough idea that I hope you're listening to Dr. Romney right now take away from this, that if you look at another human being's behavior and how it impacts you to separate yourself from that behavior, that you didn't cause it, you're not responsible for it, and just because XYZ happened, how they are erupting or how they are treating you is not okay.

And that's hard. Yes. or how they are treating you is not okay. And that's hard. Yes, that's really, really hard because the other thing we're also taught is that, and again, the world of therapy is partly guilty for this, is what are you bringing to this interaction? What part of you, think of couples therapy. What is all of couples therapy? Well, there's two people in the room.

So two people must be partly responsible. I'm like, no, no, no, not so much. And so I suppose somebody's responsible because they're standing in the room. Maybe I'll give them 5% on that. But beyond that, this idea that one person is using the other human being as their pacifier and punching bag,

I can't get behind that. They're using you to regulate. You serve no more function. They don't see as a human being. They see you as someone they can go off on, and now they've learned you ain't going anywhere. So you have to make that judgment. Is this acceptable?

In fact, if we look at the work on self-compassion, Kristin Neff's work, one thing I really love about it, and I brought to bear in working with survivors of narcissistic abuse, is so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are so far down the rabbit hole of maybe this is all I deserve, maybe I'm to blame, this is probably my fault, they've believed the gaslighting, they've internalized all the manipulation, is I'll say let's step back, I hear you. Now, I want you to take apart this episode you just shared with me and I want you to answer the question. And by now,

when the client, I know they're friends and things like, would you be okay if this happened to Mary? If you watched this happen to Mary, would you sign off on this? And I'm invariably like, no, God, Mary. Okay. So you have just said this behavior is unacceptable. So then we work backwards from there. Again, you do not disappoint Dr. Ramani. This is a tough subject, but I always feel empowered when I listen to you dig into this topic. So, thank you, thank you, thank you.

And you know what? I know as you're listening to Dr. Ramani, you feel the same way. I want to pause, hear a word from our sponsors because they are the ones that allow me to bring you this incredible episode at zero cost. Stay with us, don't go anywhere. I'll be waiting for you after a short break. ["Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"]

Welcome back, I'm your friend Mel Robbins and I'm so glad that you are still listening because Dr. Ramani is just getting started. She is cranking it up. So Dr. Ramani, can we talk a little bit about personality styles? How does this happen? Like, is somebody just born this way? When does personality develop? Like, how do you become narcissistic? The theoretical focus on where does narcissism come from largely is this idea of there's sort of two paths now. One path is a path of adversity. And the path of adversity would argue that narcissism is a personality style, is a post-traumatic presentation. These are kids who experience neglect, invalidation,

maybe frank physical or sexual abuse, that they really, really had a rough start, that that early adversity can be one path to narcissism. So are you saying that there is a whole field of research and belief that childhood trauma creates the narcissistic personality style. You can. That it literally is almost like a symptom of complex post-traumatic stress disorder. Exactly. So here's where it gets tricky.

The vast majority of children who grow up with trauma and neglect and invalidation do not develop narcissism. They may develop complex trauma. They may develop nothing at all, anxiety, the standard presentations we'd expect. The vast majority don't become narcissistic. So you might be wondering, what's path to? I am. Path to is the overindulgence, you're more special than every other kid. And this is really interesting. That's coming out of a young researcher named Eddie Brumelmans in Amsterdam,

really promising work. There's other folks doing similar work here in the States, but the work out of the Netherlands is what really has caught my attention. What he writes about in his research group, writes about is that it's this idea of telling the child not just that they're special, all kids are special, you're more special than the other kids. Basically, the indoctrination of entitlement in a child, you're the most special child. These kids, but you're the most special child. That that seems to be a pathway that even in children

starts to shift towards a more entitled style of thinking that then is probably gonna get shaped. And who's more likely to do that? An entitled narcissistic parent. The parents aren't there to teach them how to self soothe, how to hold their emotional states, how to be present with them. They want their kid to be a winner.

You're more special. And so what we also see is sort of what I call the performing pony kind of model of where we get narcissism. The kid who's loved when they're the soccer star, the kid who's loved when they get in their headed towards Harvard, that kid, the success kid, that kid knows the first time I decide not to do soccer or if I stop getting on my toes on this ballet floor, I'm toast. And that child recognizes that they are loved for what they do and not for who they are. That is another pathway to narcissism. Those kids tend to become more of the grandiose narcissist.

And Mel, I'll tell you this as a clinician, you're going to make a lot more headway with the kids with those backstories and adversity because you can use trauma-informed methods and actually make a lot more headway with the kids, with those backstories and adversity, because you can use trauma-informed methods and actually make a dent. Those grandiose kids, forget it. You're not making a dent in those people therapeutically. Is there an age range that this happens during? I mean, again, when we think of the core of social and emotional development,

a lot of this is happening prepubescent. Wow. Around puberty is where the baton gets handed to the peers. That's where peers... So there's like 12? 12, 13. Gotcha. I mean, that's why for parents listening to this, this is the heavy lifting from zero

to 13, safety, consistency, emotional availability, teaching children to self-soothe, giving validity to their emotions, not making your child feel that they're loved for what they do, allowing your child to feel special as part of a world full of special people, and not more special, not behaving in an entitled manner around your kids. So I keep thinking about something that happened a week ago.

We were away celebrating my mom's 75th, and we were checking into a hotel. And there's this family in front of us, and they're checking in. And dad is kind of yelling at the staff behind the counter. It's right after a big holiday weekend. The rooms are not ready. He's blustering. Mom has got like nine-inch long nails, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap,

on her phone. The kid is in a stroller wearing a Versace sweatsuit, golden goose glitter sneakers. So we're talking probably a $1,500 outfit on a three-year-old with the labels all over it. The three-year-old is on a phone right next to them staring at social media. As I sit here and hear you talk about the two different lanes and that something is getting modeled between the dad yelling, the mom ignoring, the kid all over social media at the age of 3 dressed as a billboard for designer clothes, it makes me worried about the state of society.

Is narcissism on the rise? So there's the big question. There's a Dr. Keith Campbell. He's a professor at University of Georgia. And his work on narcissism to me is some of the best out there. And he wrote a book called The Narcissism Epidemic back in 2012 with Jean Twenge. And they were suggesting that it was on the rise at that point. Here's what him and I were noticing.

I was noticing as a clinician. He was noticing it as a researcher. He's like the grandiose narcissism, interestingly, is kind of where it's always been. What social media has done is it's given grandiose narcissism a sort of interesting platform in place to live, but the vulnerable narcissists, their victimhood, their anger, their sullenness, their mean comments on social media, that has shot up. Because those vulnerable narcissistic folks

are seeing that other people have stuff and they don't have it. So they're seething. And all this seething we're seeing in the world is the vulnerable narcissistic people have gone off like a wildfire. And that's what the new problem is, to be quite honest. That's how I see it, is that the vulnerable narcissism is really the problem. That victimized failure to launch. I have all these big fantasies and why isn't everything going my way and how come everyone else gets a lucky break and nothing ever happens for me.

Angry, angry, angry, troll, troll, troll, mean, mean, mean. That's what's sort of on the rise. And so I think that the grandiose piece is probably, oh, there's always been that group of people. Right. Here's what I don't believe. I think if you have a person with a healthy personality and they're mucking around on social media, they kind of understand the difference. Does that

make sense? They're able to say, this is fun, but I think people who already have that personality stuff churning in their adolescence, social media is the match you're throwing on the gasoline. But with no gasoline, the match is just going to fizzle out. So all this stuff, the social emotional development, the three-year-old with the designer duds, that's the kid who where that plus the social media and the messages from the world and the non-emotionally attuned parents, the parents modeling entitlement, that's the person who is going to love, bomb, and destroy someone's life in about 25 years. Well, this is super helpful to have the distinction grandiose because I think I can think of a

million examples of people that just display it. It's out there. I find the vulnerable narcissist that you were just talking about, this deep-seated anger and victimhood. And victimhood to be really fascinating. And I can see how a deep-seated anger and victimhood then leads to this sense of entitlement that might not be displayed on social media, but then gets aimed at your family, at your friends, at your colleagues, at your loved ones. And so, as somebody's listening to this, and this always happens when you and I talk, there's

usually one of two reactions, which is, am I a narcissist? And the second one is, oh my God, you're describing my dad. You're describing my son. You're describing the person I'm dating. How would you counsel someone if you're having this epiphany for the first time? What are some things like, you see these three things, we got it for sure. What you see in vulnerable narcissistic people is a chronic grudge. That's what it is. It's the chronic grudge.

It's in a lot of it comes out in political conversations, but it could even be like, that neighbor, your brother. It's like, it's this, it's grudge. It's a constant grudge and grievance. And there's a, and it's the grudge and grievances though, even these sort of random things that happen to be happening in the world seem to be targeted at them. So that takes us to the second thing, which is this chronic sense of suspiciousness. People are kind of out to get them. Bad things are negatively targeting them. They're just literally a hair away from seeming paranoid.

It really feels as if they almost feel like people are out to get them, but it's not quite that bad, but it's this sense of he's always trying to make me mad. Like, no, I think he just parked his car there. I don't think he was thinking about it. This is a good parking spot, right? But they're thinking that the person parked the car there to piss them off.

They make the person's parked car about them. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I feel like I'm having a trauma response as I hear you describe this because grudge and this edge and the suspiciousness. And that it's like happening to the traffic. So many people have moved here

and the traffic is really terrible and somehow it's personal to me. Or you're too busy at work. and so you never come to see me. That's right. And then the third piece is that victimhood. One thing that Keith Campbell and I talked about which is it's the sense of the grandiose narcissist, they'll have a big dream and it's big

and they'll do the thing, right? And they may, it may, it might even succeed. In fact, I think all the big things in our lives, in our lives, the big, big stuff, probably there's a lot of grandiose narcissism behind that. The vulnerable narcissistic people talk about the big thing and they never take the step. And they never take the step because everyone's against them. I got the idea for the biggest book ever. It's the biggest book ever. Like, wait till you hear about this.

Like, it's going to be so great. Not one word to paper. And like, oh, you know what, Mel, you got so many easy breaks. And it was all, it was really easy for you. Like, my idea is way bigger than your idea, Mel. But you know, I'm not going to waste my time with these publisher never. And they're not able to see how great I am. It's that. Does that make sense? They're going to put you down.

They're going to lift themselves up. They never do the thing, but they talk as though they are doing it. That's a real hallmark of vulnerable narcissism. And ultimately, it looks like failure to launch. Can you explain triangulation? That was a term that my therapist used that really had me go ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And I think it's tied into the grudge and that feeling of like the world is against me. But can you explain that behavior of triangulation? So triangulation is a power move, right? So it is a, there's another piece of remember about vulnerable narcissism is there's a lot of passive aggression there, right? Passive aggression is a real signature characteristic of vulnerable narcissism and things like the silent treatment and all of that. What passive

aggressive and grudgy people do is they talk through other people. They talk through a third party, right? So it can feel at times, you can feel gossipy, but instead of coming directly to you, talking directly to you, they will plant all these victimized seeds in other people who are fertile targets. Those people might even sympathize with the vulnerable narcissist, making the person who should have been on the other side of the direct communication, the villain. So by doing this, they actually in some strange way lift themselves up.

Everyone's like, oh, I'm so sorry. That person should have been more supportive. I'm so sorry this happened to you. Let me see if I could talk to them. And then that person you may actually have a good relationship with is now coming to you and you're like, what? And now you're kind of having friction with the messenger, but the messenger is really just carrying the bag of grudge that the vulnerable narcissist gave them.

And when this happens, you can imagine where this really happens is workplaces. One vulnerable narcissist can upend a really good work team. Can you give us some examples? So a great example of that would be you've got the victimized vulnerable narcissist who doesn't want to work as hard as everyone else who feels like things should come easier, who might even be jealous of other people in the workplace that are leveling up, right? So they complain to other people. Vulnerable narcissist is savvier than you think because they're paying attention to

who the fertile targets are, who's willing to sit with them, who's willing to say, no, no, no, you're really smart too. I could totally see this working out for you. But what they're doing though too, is they're raising suspicion about, oftentimes, may the mission and vision of the organization or the people who are succeeding in the organization.

And what it does is it ruins the sense of collaboration. So it would be that person who's just like, can you believe her? Like, she's, I don't know. I'm not such a big fan of her. And then they keep talking and talking and talking. Enough people start to agree. And then you'll see eye rolling at a meeting.

Or you might see people just like a lot of that stuff. And then people are noticing like, gosh, it feels more intense here than it always was, but it was that one vulnerable narcissistic person who didn't want to do the work, who was always complaining, who was very entitled, but in this grudging way, so people felt guilty about it, felt pity for them. And now all of a sudden the energy in the room has changed in a family. Forget about it. I mean, I sound like, I feel like you're describing a family and a parent that then goes to a sibling who's mad at the other sibling. And so that sibling becomes a messenger

friend groups where the person who feels left out goes to a friend to complain that they feel sad so that the friend then goes to the person organizing the party so and so feels left out. Wow. And then what it does though is when we really see triangulation at the highest levels, the narcissistic person is almost like a puppeteer pulling the strings. They get to be above it all and they get to watch all the chaos that's starting to ensue. So what was once a healthy family, healthy workgroup, healthy group of friends is now more fractured, centralizing more power in the narcissistic person. I feel so grateful that you're here and I'm sure as you're listening, you feel grateful

as well. And one of the things that I loved about your new book, It's Not You, is that you've got these very visual examples. And you also spent a bit of time talking about the tick talk-ification. I don't even know if that's a word, but basically what tick-tock is done to spread misinformation about narcissism. We're going to dig into all of that after a short word of our sponsors. Please stay with us. You're not going to want to miss this, and I'll be waiting for you after a short break. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I am here with Dr. Ramani Deverstahl. I'm so glad you have tuned in today because we are diving deep into the topic of narcissism.

So Dr. Ramani, does the person that has a narcissistic personality style, are they conscious that they're doing this? Or is it like this immature, emotional kind of stunted growth inside them that means that when they feel triggered or they feel that sense of grudge or the entitlement or the insecurity rises up, that the emotion floods, and this is just what they do. So this is where some people make the argument that narcissism is a trauma response, right? They're very quickly trying to feel safe. As the shame bubbles up, the only way I can describe, can I use a gross reference? You can do it.

You are the world's leading expert. Okay, this is really gross and downmarket, but I'm going to say it. If you've ever had terrible diarrhea, okay, I'm just gonna be as gross, because this is as gross as it gets. And you're like, oh my God, if I don't get to a bathroom, I'm gonna shit my pants. Right?

Think of the shame associated with that. And when you think of the shame, like I'm about to shit my pants in an airplane, in an airport, in a work meeting. Think of how you feel like you're in a pan. Well, and also the urgency. Like I'm like, I got to, like this is a, this like right now I need to get this out of my body,

get out of my way. Yes. So you're not listening to the meeting. No. You're not listening to conversation. You're like, I have to get to a bathroom or I'm about to embarrass the hell out of myself. This is awful.

And it gets to the point where you don't even think. It like, overrides. Okay, so that diarrhea is how a narcissistic person feels every time that shame starts to come up. That's the best way I can describe. So they're just like, they're not listening to you. They're like, shame coming up, but then I don't even know it's shame.

At least we know it's, you know, what it is, right? But they don't know. So it's this feeling of that sort of psychological diarrhea that's been there like nobody can see this. And so what do they do? Their equivalent of running to the bathroom is to become entitled and grandiose or in most cases, rageful. When we look at a cohort's work on this, who was a theoretician, wrote back in the 60s and 70s. He would say this shame and rage is one of the central cores of the narcissistic presentation. So what will happen is the psychological diarrhea, got to find a bathroom.

The bathroom is, have you, Mel? What are you, you don't know what you're talking about. So now I'm powerful, Mel is small, crisis averted. When somebody who has a narcissistic personality style walks into a room, what might they be feeling? They're casing the joint. You know how a thief or burglar walks into a place or drives by a place and they're looking for all the places they could get in.

Where could they get in? Where could they get caught? Where might the money be? That's what they're doing with you. They day casing the joint every time they meet you like what's the way in? What who who's got the power in this room? Who do I need to sit next to who do I need to talk to? Where's the stuff? Hmm, how do you spot them other than they the kid with the Versace sweatsuit on and the stroller and the mom tapping on her phone? They're the adult for the virtual Versace sweatsersage sweat suit who are sitting in a stroller. Whatever the adult equivalent of a stroller is.

They don't look at people. They look through them. They have a remarkable capacity to be able to look at you but also be eyeing the door to see if someone more interesting is coming in or if there's someone else more interesting at the bar. It may not be that they're more attractive. It's just that they may bring something cooler, more hip cred, more validation, more supply. They're always working the room. You can always see the sort of sweet, agreeable people who will,

they'll have the long meandering, boring conversation because they're sort of, they've committed to it. And then they might find the graceful exit or someone may, you know, puncture the conversation, but the narcissistic person will just go and then they might find the graceful exit or someone may puncture the conversation, but the narcissistic person will just go and go until they find the best, if you will, target. Listen, I live in LA, so every so often, especially before the pandemic. I think since the pandemic, my dance card's been less full, but before I'd go to parties where there'd be some people of some notoriety, who the narcissistic people, when they'd see that famey-fame person walk in, it's a wonder they'd then trip, trying to get over to them.

They would just abruptly leave conversations and then they would just cleave themselves to the so-called famous, notorious, powerful Hollywood person. It was actually quite fun to watch. They're like heat seeking missiles. As soon as they found the power center of a group, that's where they're going to put their focus. You've got new research in, it's not you. And one of the things that you write about are the four myths about narcissism. Can you unpack those for us? So, you know, one of the key myths is that narcissistic people are always men.

And I think that that's a dangerous myth. And again, I'm using the gender binary here. We still are that this research is evolving. So keeping my research often has like a 10 to 15 year delay, if you will. But using the binary is that narcissistic grandiose narcissists are more likely to be men, men and women equal levels of vulnerable narcissism. Men more malignant narcissism because I think the combativeness.

Just what is some malignant narcissism? Some more malignant narcissism is actually the most severe form of narcissism. I always call it the last stop on the narcissism train before it veers into psychopathy station. It's the, it's where we see the darkrad, where narcissism, Machiavellianism or the willingness to exploit others, psychopathy and sadism all come together. And that's a lot of what we see in malignant narcissism. They are more coercive. They are more exploitative. They are more manipulative. They're more isolating. They don't tend to have the big, bright, shiny, grandiose personalities. So is this when you get into severe emotional and physical abuse?

Correct. Yes. It may not even be physical. It may just simply be severe, isolated, coercively controlling kinds of financial abuse, emotional abuse, that kind of thing. It's more menacing. And I think that those kinds of qualities, again, tend not to be selected for in women.

So we're gonna see that more in men. But when we talk about communal narcissism, that sort of savior narcissism. This is where we see everything from new age folks to cult leaders, to people who think they're saving the world. And it's, well, people like saving the world. Like, what do you mean?

They're rescuing puppies. How could that you mean? They're rescuing puppies. How could that be bad? They're rescuing puppies though, to get validation and admiration. They probably like the puppies well enough. But if nobody's recognizing all their puppy saving or their environmental saving or whatever it is they're doing, they get angry.

They have to be recognized as humanitarians. They not only put themselves out there as these great humanitarian saviors, they still treat the people their closest to quite terribly. A great example of this would be the person like, you're a dad pillar of the community. You're so lucky to be his kid. The dad and the little league and the mayor and the small town and behind closed doors screaming at that family, humiliating mayor, in the small town, and behind closed doors, screaming at that family, humiliating them, shaming them. And yet the world says, psh, your dad's a pillar of the community.

That's a great example of communal narcissism. So first myth, that men are the narcissist. What's the next myth? The second myth is that this is just bragging. It's just arrogance. It's just posturing. It's what we were talking about earlier. I think that somebody meets someone arrogant to like,

oh, that's a narcissist. And I'll always say, slow down, sister. Like, let's spend a little bit more time. I'm digging in. I'm trying to find the entitlement. It's a little bit hard to find sometimes because it might take a minute to unfurl. That's why even therapists, it takes us a minute

before we could really say definitively someone has a narcissistic personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. In fact, it's a lot more easier to discern in some ways if somebody's actually agreeable than if they're actually narcissistic because narcissistic people can really start looking kind of agreeable-ish, but they'll give away little cues. I mean, narcissistic people tend to be snobby, they tend to be elitist. Some of that might come out early on, but it's not just bragging and arrogance. Just because a person's bragging, it's a person's arrogant. Just because a person's wearing designer labels, it doesn't mean they're narcissistic.

I say we have to be careful when it's sort of these forward kind of facing characteristics. The grudge really hit me. And so did this distinction that you mentioned earlier between the difference between somebody being annoying versus somebody's behavior being harmful? That's exactly right. And that's the piece where, you know, this is what concerns me about the sort of the tick-tockification of narcissism. Because what you're seeing there, and I've run into this over and over again, a lot of

the folks out there who sometimes put out narcissism content were hurt by narcissists. Listen, I've been hurt by, I'm like a Hall of Famer at this point for the number of people. I mean, the narcissistic people have been in my life. Some still there, many not. But one, so I'll give you a classical example. Somebody's boyfriend cheats on them. He's a narcissist. I'm like, he cheated on you. Not okay, but

I need more. Okay. So I think that this idea that somebody cheats that makes them a narcissist, do narcissists cheat more than other people? Absolutely. Absolutely. Is everyone who cheats a narcissist? No. So I think that when a person's hurt in one way, they want to make that leave. We even have to be careful there. So yes, it's annoying. It is immature. We really latch onto the superficiality part of it just because somebody put selfies on Instagram. It doesn't make them a narcissist.

They could just be a sweetie. They just might just say, look, an autumn leaves tree. And this is me in front of it. And in some ways it's, I look at those and I'm like, sweet, but I mean, I, I mean, it's a little image. Well, I think what you're saying is really good. So now I feel terrible about slamming the baby in the Versace thing, but I'm willing to take that bet now.

Because there are multiple check boxes in that scenario in a certain age and behavior by parents because I don't blame the child at all. And I also, in learning everything that I've learned in a weird way, the person that I'm closest to in my life that has a narcissistic personality style, I don't even blame them because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences that stunts somebody's emotional growth. Right. And this is where it gets the most tricky for survivors, right?

Yes. Because I hear you and that's exactly what I know and many of the people I've known who are narcissistic clients, I've treated and all of that. To still keep pinning it down to and their behavior is not acceptable. Number one, you're not responsible for their history. Number two, if they are a sentient functional human being, they can take responsibility for their mental health. They have put you in the position of using you as a tool of regulation, pacifier, and punching bag. That's not okay, right? They can take responsibility,

but they will dine out for the rest of their life on the idea of I had a tough childhood. And they will, these days more than ever, will commandeer the rough childhood explanation as the explanation for their behavior. This is why I'm saying we have to be careful while narcissism may be in part a trauma response. I'm going to push back on that a little, which is a person who has had an adverse childhood and is having consistent trauma responses, for example, safety behaviors

and all that, they tend to be consistent. The narcissistic person knows what they're doing. How do we know they know what they're doing? Because you've gone through this too. Think of the dinner party scenario. The dinner party, they're so charming. In fact, someone even ribs them, makes a funny little joke at their expense and they laugh. You're thinking, maybe I judged this person wrong.

Maybe they're not narcissistic. You get in the car at the end of the night and they go off for the next hour. They knew what they were doing. They waited till they got in the car. That's not a lack of insight. They knew exactly what they were doing. There's another huge insight that's brand new for me

because I think I've probably over-indexed on the explain it away, be empathetic, have sympathy. While trying to remind myself I'm not responsible for it. So what I just shared was myth three, that this idea that they don't know what they're doing. This is why this is such an important point. That person who's careful, they make sure there's no one else in the car

when they're on speaker. They scream at you after the dinner party is done. All the dinner party guests, the family, might still think they're a cool person because they've never seen the rage. Then that person experiencing that relationship often not only doesn't have support, they're having to endure other people saying, you're whoever it was, you're friend, what a great person or like love the new boyfriend and you're like, everybody likes them. And then what do you do?

Well, if everybody likes them, what's wrong with me? It's gotta be me. And that's why the book's called, It's Not You. Wow. So the fourth myth, and this is sort of the myth to rule all other myths, which is they can change or everyone can change.

Okay, so let's start with the simplest example. I'm gonna put myself here on the shopping block. I am an agreeable introvert. That's Dr. Ramanee's personality. No matter how bad a day it is, I'll roll up to the person at the airport, hi, how are you? Because I'm thinking, I don't know what day they just had. So I'll really say, you've got to be, you've got to be sharp, you've got to be warm and

friendly, even if you're not feeling it. My agreeableness has been there. You've asked my mother, she'll say, from the day you were born, you were the sweetest, easiest baby in the world, smiling in every picture, right? But I'm an introvert. If somebody says, you know, Romani, you'd be so much more successful if you were a bit more entitled, put yourself first, could be a little bit more arrogant, like do it. My team sometimes is like, come on, you gotta like put yourself out there, Romani.

And when I do, I feel sick. I can't do it. The times I'd be like, I need to be first. I'm like, no, no, I don't. I can't do it. But if let's say somebody even said, just go out there, be more entitled, be more grandiose, be more arrogant, be all these things, Stop having all this empathy. Like, stop. What is this a likelihood I could do that? And be the life of the party. Zero. Okay. So if I can't make those changes, why would the narcissist and my personality is

less rigid than theirs? If I can't become a disagreeable extrovert tomorrow, why would the narcissistic person become a big, huggy, empathic, unentitled, open, vulnerable person. I can't do it neither can they. And they're less likely to do it because their personality is more rigid. I mean, that makes all the sense in the world. So we're actually asking something unreasonable of the narcissistic people when we think that they can change.

And when you throw in there, they're less likely to go to therapy. And when they start going to therapy, they're 60% more likely to drop out of therapy. When is this change actually going to happen? So is that the reason why we don't know how many narcissists there are because they don't go to therapy? Yeah, really.

Not only do they not go to therapy, a lot of the research now focuses on measuring how many people have narcissistic personality disorder. And that you're going to see rates of 1% to 6%. Versus a style. But versus the personality style where we're never going to get those numbers. People said, come on, spitball a number. If I were to spitball a number, 20%, 1 in 5. That high?

Enough narcissism to cause problems in relationships. Yeah. Do they have NPD? I have no idea. But 1 in 5 people, I think, has enough narcissism to cause a problem. I think if you go to major metropolitan areas, it's going to be worse. I think if you, in certain industries, it's going to be far worse. Finance, law, politics, media, athletics, celebrity, much, much worse.

Wow. There are five different patterns that narcissists have that you write about in your new book. It's not you. Yeah. So dimmers and acronym I use to sort of help not only people who are going through these relationships, but clinicians organize the pattern. The dimmer patterns and I use the term dimmers because it really turns down our light. And narcissistic people are dismissive, invalidating, dismissive, invalidating, manipulative, minimizing, but also on gaslighting isn't that manipulation. They're entitled and they're rageful. And all of those patterns, the dismissiveness, the invalidation, the minimization, the manipulation, they turn off our light because the only way we can then survive in a relationship with a narcissist,

if we don't know what it is, right? The only way we can survive is by giving in, which means subjugating ourselves to them, pretty much living in their service. Because when you do that, the narcissist views us like I view this cup. Right now, I love this cup because it's holding the water I need. I'm fond of the cup. Thank you, cup. And that's even a like I view this cup. Right now I love this cup because it's holding the water I need. I'm fond of the cup, thank you cup. And that's even a stretch to thank the cup. When this is over, I'm gonna throw this cup out because I have no more use for this cup.

That's how a narcissist views a person. Well, what if I'm fascinated about that? Is that you constantly think about the narcissist in your life. All the time. But they don't think about you. No, unless they need you. And then they think about the narcissist in your life. All the time. But they don't think about you. No, unless they need you and then they think about you a lot. So you like this cup, I'm thinking about this cup now,

I'm about to take a drink out of it. They're not thinking about you unless you serve a function or unless they think they're gonna lose you. The one thing we forget about narcissistic folks is they don't like abandonment because it is a loss of control. There's an argument that narcissistic folks also have attachment issues.

They either have anxious attachments, avoidant attachments or mix of both, but definitely insecure attachments. So the idea that their source of supply could get up and leave, and that's not what they want, means that they've lost control of the narrative and they will punish that person for doing that. Another one that you write about is domination.

So domination patterns are classical and narcissistic relationships because the function of a relationship for a narcissistic person is really to give them a place of power, domination, and control and it's the only way they can function in a relationship. So as a result, all narcissistic relationships are asymmetric. There will never be balance and equity in a narcissistic relationship. They have to have more power. So that's why, for example, in an intimate relationship, a narcissistic person will often want to have more money.

And if their partner has more money, that's not going to work for them. I remember working with a client where there's a woman and then she had a very narcissistic partner. She made the money, she was incredibly successful at what she did. And he was absolute textbook malignant narcissist. And he would cut her down constantly, cheated on her all the time.

Anything to make her feel smaller and smaller and smaller. Then one day he got into a new line of work and his career really skyrocketed. Then the balance switched. He was now making more money. And money is a very, very powerful source of supply for narcissistic people because in our culture is one of the fastest routes to power you can get. So then, he continued doing all the abusive things, but now he was much more secure in the relationship. And strangely, he started behaving a little better, whatever better is. But you see the same thing in families too, right? It's all about power, domination, and control. And it doesn't have to be the patriarch or the

matriarch. You can literally be a sibling who is the one who is exerting that kind of power, domination, and control. And so the power isn't always where you think. And obviously, when you have a narcissistic father, for example, can really, really be painful for everyone involved because that person's already more societally powered just by being a man in charge of a family. But that's a central, central motivation. I think what happens for a lot of folks who fall in love with a narcissistic person is they believe you both want the same thing.

You were in love. We're doing love things. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You're in love there in power. Understand the difference. Whoa. That's a big one. You're in love there in power.

Understand the difference. That leads right into love bombing. What is love bombing? Okay, so love bombing is a strategic approach a narcissistic person takes at the beginning of a relationship to win a person over and secure them as a source of supply. In the most classical grandiose form of love bombing, it's a relationship that feels like a fairy tale. It's dinners out, it's love texts,

good morning my angel, good night my princess, how's my queen this morning? That stuff is narcissism central. It's, this is the greatest love story ever told. Like, where have you been my whole life on Instagram? Found my soulmate. Soulmate. Narcissism. I see you're here. Soulmate. I'm like someone's in a narcissistic relationship. You know how it's like every time a bell rings and Angel gets their wings? Every time I hear soulmate, someone fell in love with a narcissist. Same thing. That is that

kind of talk. Magic connection. Once in a lifetime, picnics on the beach, let's fly to Paris, let's spend every day together for two weeks, good night, queen, good morning, king, all that stuff, that's love bombing. However, that's not the only way it shows up because some people say that did not happen to me. Love bombing also might play on, for example, let's say someone's a rescuer, and especially with a vulnerable narcissistic person.

Vulnerable narcissists are really, really good at pulling for pity early in a relationship. Like, you know, I'm so lucky I met you. You're such a good listener. Like, nothing's ever gone right in my life. You come along, you're listening. Like, I guess my luck's changed, but oh my gosh, thank you. And so you're like, my project, I am going to save them. And if that's your thing, then they are the ultimate.

They're like a fixer-upper of a human being. So you're like, no, no, no, I know a guy. I'm gonna introduce you to this guy. Like, your car's not working. Well, please take mine, no problem. Or I got you, like, we are going to make your dreams come true. That is crack for a vulnerable narcissistic person. So it can be this rather vulnerable opening up.

And that's how their love bombing shows up. But the mistake people make is we only think of love bombing in a romantic way. Love bombing can happen in families. And when a family member needs something for you, now listen, your family, your parents don't love bomb you because you kind of like, it was built into the model. Like they, you're like, you had to love them.

Like you had no choice. But as time goes on, narcissistic parents will do the equivalent of love bombing. They need the kid, they need the kid to be what they want. Like, hey honey, like you're the best. Oh my gosh, you're doing so great. Like you Like, hey honey, you're the best. Oh my gosh, you're doing so great. Like, you're gonna go out, you're gonna win that game. It is pizza, it is ice cream.

You wanna go to Disneyland? You wanna go to, I'll take you to Disneyland? So it's the parent throws the little goodies in there to get the kid in line, sometimes even to be a source of supply for them. And as you get into adulthood with a narcissistic parent or a narcissistic family member, they will do that same sort of, you're the best.

Here's all this stuff. We'll do anything you want to be able to keep you, maybe sometimes just on the narcissistic supply chain of the family. I do have one question about the love bombing because I saw this happen with somebody that I care deeply about. They like, you're my queen.

I love you Angel. And the problem is when that happens to you as a human, you literally do think you found Prince Charming or you found the one. And like all of your chemicals in your body are going bananas because you are attracted to this person and they're like, what do you do? You ask such an important question because the other thing that happens in love bombing

is that the person, the narcissistic person tries to push the accelerator on the relationship. They want it to go fast. If they want to lock down your supply, right? And remember, the narcissistic person uses a relationship not only to get supply and want to key form supply status. What do you mean by supply? Supply is the admiration you bring a person, the validation you bring a person. It could be your attractiveness, it could be money, it could be social status, it could

be sex, it could be time, it could be novelty. Remember, the reason Love Bombing works is that it's new not only for you, but for them. Narcissistic people are reward seekers, but they don't care as much about punishment. So they don't think about consequences. They think about reward. There are biological theories of narcissism that suggest like the nucleus accumbens, those areas of the brain that are very sort of dopamine happy parts of the brain, that reward sensitivity that has been shown in the research to be very much the case, that they don't think about the punishment, the thing down the road.

They think about the thing that feels good in front of them. But they are trying to lock down the supply. So if you're a good source of supply, you praise them a lot. You're so hot. You're so cool. You're so great. Let's go Instagram official. Anything that's bringing them what they want. Like, it's attention, right?

I know, but as a 55 year old woman, I'm, you know, I see it happening with so many 20 something. I'm like, you're not, you did not meet the love of your life. You're not marrying this person right now. Calm your fricking jets. Mel, I'm gonna call you out on that. Keep your IUD in. Like, let's not lock this sucker down.

Like you are in a rational, insecure, you are fall... Like, obviously I can't say this to somebody. But I'm going to call you out on that. Let's not just be being to the 20-year-olds. I am watching 55-year-olds involved for this. Oh, I'm sure, because like if you're newly out of a marriage or you've been single forever and somebody suddenly comes out of the blue, I understand like we all want attention and to feel good, but how do you discern?

I guess because a normal person doesn't go, you're my queen 10 seconds after they meet you. That thing is the narcissist is too clever to say you're my queen 10 seconds after they meet you. That thing is the narcissist is too clever to say you're my queen 10 seconds after meeting you. Well, it's like the date that goes for 48 hours. That's exactly right. It's the date that goes out for 48 hours. It's they say goodnight and think of it.

Let's say somebody's been dating a bunch of people who aren't responsive, who wait three days to text and all that, which narcissists can do as well, but a really full court press love bomber. They'll send that, are you home, baby? Can't stop thinking about you. Ding. And then in the morning, good morning, Queen. I just dreamt about you.

Ding. Middle of the day. They, but they're really good love bombers. They don't go crazy. It's not every hour. Maybe around lunchtime, like, hey, I hope your day is going well. And then they might even wait a minute. They're still not love bombers. They don't go crazy. It's not every hour. Maybe you're on lunchtime like, hey, I hope your day is going well. And then they might even wait a minute. They're still not the second day.

They're very, very tactical. So what would happen? Let's just say that somebody hears you and they're taking everything that you're saying to heart. And a couple months from now, you're getting a new relationship. You go on this absolutely fabulous date, right? The next morning, Angel, I hope

you slept well, I dreamt about you all night, like literally, and then middle of the day, can't get any work done, can't stop thinking about it, you can't wait to see you. That night, another date, goes all night. It's just like, what are the, you know, when are we getting married? This, and you start to go, oh, somewhere in the back of my mind between the dopamine rush and the sex hormones that are flying through my body. I remember Dr. Romney saying something about the fact that this could be love bombing. Like, is there a stance you could take just to test the waters a little bit where you don't respond for 24 hours? And then like, like, is there a stance you could take just to test the waters a little bit where you don't respond for 24 hours? And then like, like, is there something to do to interrupt yourself? Okay.

Because you're not going to stop the love bombing. Have you ever been on vacation at a place like Hawaii or some other tropical island? Not Hawaii, but somewhere else. Some other tropical island. Yes, yes, yes. You've been on a vacation like that, right? Did you move there? No.

You came home? Yeah. It would have been nice to stay there. I'm running the drinks, the day's in the sun, reading the book, right? Like telling people to interrupt the love bombing is telling people, you just got to Maui, come home. Staying in Maui for a week, have some fun.

But as soon as like, you know, kinda miss my cat my cat, my dog, I kind of miss my bed, come back. Right, the love bomb out. Have some fun. You want to test it, but things you'll see early on are things like the narcissistic person doesn't tolerate disappointment. Well, if anything pings their entitlement, for example, they don't get the table they want. There is a wait at the restaurant. They did lose the reservation. The bags get lost.

And they get really, really crunchy and entitled. You just got your first sign and catch yourself in the excuse like, well, we did just have an overnight flight. It's not okay to yell at somebody for not finding the back, all right? You've now gotten your first piece of data. One of the most interesting things I remember learning in graduate school was a supervisor told me, I was learning to be a therapist. He said to me, the first time something happens, it happens. The second time something happens, it's a coincidence.

The third time it happens, it's a pattern. So take the first time as what it is called the second time of coincidence. By the time the third time comes, it's time to leave Maui, pack those bags and come home. Because I, as a psychology can tell you, it's impossible for me to tell someone to leave something that feels that good. The key is that when you're getting good morning queen soulmate nonsense to recognize this for the tropical vacation that it is, and remind yourself that this is going to run out. I am going to need to go back to real life again.

And that rule of threes hits and say, yeah, no, this isn't cool. This isn't okay. But that is a really, really tough nut to crack because what the love bombing does, and this is why it's such a useful tactic, it creates buy-in. Because what has happened is you've now created the idealized foundation of a relationship. And maybe that's the thing is that idealization really has no place in a relationship. Is that we're trying to fall in love with the whole person. And the whole person isn't always a day at the beach. The whole person is the regular stuff.

But unfortunately in the app-dating world we're in, narcissistic people have the best dating profiles. They have the most curated images. They've got like their cool places and they always look good and the abs and the whole thing, it's a whole thing. And so you're really trying to catch people as they get lost in this world of love bombing and all of that, is telling them to go against human biology. That's a tough sell. And I think that teaching people more than like

when these sorts of little red flags start popping up, pay attention. If it feels too much, it is too much. And you're a grown adult. It's not supposed to be a fairy tale. I still think we live in a rom-com world and where we think this is a normal way to have a relationship. And I also think that the West is very romance oriented. Any world where there's lots of romance is where the narcissists are going to win. So I guess I'm telling, I think we're around Valentine's Day now. I'm saying say

goodbye to the romance by the chocolates the day after Valentine's are 50% off and stop playing into this game ahead of time. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love this concept in your book. It's not you of the C-suite as being the gateway to love bombings. Can you explain what that is? Yes. So, here we're talking about narcissistic relationships and how terrible they are, right?

And how it could be in a weather, especially in an intimate relationship, but in any relationship. You're thinking, well, why are we running away as soon as we see them yelling at the server because everybody's vulnerable to these relationships? And this idea that are there some people more vulnerable than others? No, and that's the C-suite. Why are we all vulnerable to them? Because they are charming. They are charismatic. They are charming. They are charismatic.

They are confident. They are curious about us. They have great credentials. And in a weird way, especially if we had narcissistic parents and we meet a narcissistic person in adulthood, they're even a weird source of comfort because it's our chance number two to win over the person who is not fully loving us.

Like, I know this game. I'm going to be fabulous and I'm going to make them love me because that's how love works, right? I'm going to earn it from them because if someone just rolls up and loves you, you're like, that's boring, right? That's the thing you push back, you get. But that, especially the charisma, the confidence, the charm. I mean, it's, it's an odd thing to tell people once I'm there all the time though It'd be not like this is the thing that's so damn good. It's a transaction

It's a transaction. They're trying to get your supply. They they know again It's that conscious knowing how to turn it on and turn it off Any of us I mean you must know now you said you know narcissistic people tell me they were not some of the most charming Charismatic shiny sparkly people you've ever known. It's true. I think there are two enormous takeaways that I have from this conversation so far. Number one, that there is a difference between their behavior and it being acceptable. Like you said this thing earlier that made me go, holy cow, you're absolutely right. Their behavior is what their behavior is and that is completely separate from whether or not it is appropriate. Correct. Regardless of their backstory.

Regardless of their backstory. And that's an enormous piece of it that I think I have explained away so much of the bad behavior and the kind of broken dynamic because of the backstory. And the overextension of empathy and consideration has put me in a position where I have tolerated the behavior, I have made excuses for the behavior, I have felt bad for the person when the tantrums or the grudges or the this or the that, I tune it out and I have not given myself the permission to say, hey, you are who you are, but how you're behaving around me is not appropriate. Right.

The second thing that has been an enormous eye-opener, because I always fixated on the fact that somebody is not necessarily born this way that's made in childhood. It's a personality style. It is like concrete. You're not going to change it. But when you started explaining how selective somebody is, how they turn it off and on, how they target you versus a sibling, or they target a certain situation versus another situation, you're a thousand percent right that there is this complete conscious direction of when I'm going to explode, when I'm not going to explode, who I'm going to gripe to, who I'm not going to gripe to.

And that is so empowering to me because it allows me to really step into that truth that is still not appropriate. It doesn't matter what the hell happened to you. That allows me to understand what's going on. It doesn't mean it's acceptable. Right, and I think that, again, I'm so glad you honed in on those two things because what I think people are often,

they're asking a question and kind of asking the wrong question and we sometimes give them the wrong answer, which is, does the narcissistic person know why they are the way they are? To which I'm gonna say, not really, and it doesn't matter. But I think the thing is that people want to say, maybe they can't help it.

I'm telling you, obviously, they can. And if they couldn't mail, they'd never be as successful as the way they are. Or they'd be screaming in shareholder meetings. They'd be screaming at everyone. Sometimes they do, but they tend to scream at what they consider low value targets. People they view as disposable.

It's pretty rare for them to scream at other people. That is disgusting. It's disgusting. If you really think about it, like if you really like get out of the victimhood mindset, like why is this happening to me? And you embrace what you're saying, which is the reason why they target you and not your sister is because they view you as

the low value target. They can get what they want out of you, which is the supply of your attention and stepping on your face in order to feel better. And you're going to come back around. Yeah, because you always do. So, Dr. Romney, I remember at one point you saying, after decades of being in a clinical practice, being a professor, researching, writing bestselling books that you have had many narcissists in your practice. Is it possible in your clinical experience for a narcissist to actually change? Okay, today, I wish I could say yes or no. Not enough to make a difference in the health of

the important relationships in their life. Micro changes that might affect how they go through the world with less important people. They may learn their pleases and thank you's. They may learn to show up on time. They may regulate their anger a little bit better. They may not flip off the person who cuts them off in traffic. Okay? Are they going to be present, empathic, mindful, and self-aware? I haven't seen that happen. One of the kind of those old emails I'd get from former clients was a person, a person who was in a long-term relationship with a malignant narcissist. When that person terminated therapy with me many years ago, the person said to me, I have to end therapy with you because

you see the truth of my relationship and I'm not leaving. It's unfortunate that this person did leave therapy because most 50% of people stay in these relationships. It's not unusual and I get it and there's no judgment. And this person said to just, I feel ashamed that I'm staying in this. And this person happened to choose to stay because they had a very well-resourced lifestyle. There was a very restrictive prenup. And the person said, I don't think I can give up this lifestyle because I am really

looking at a one-bedroom apartment for the rest of my days. I'd left the workplace for too long. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to make it work. By happenstance, a few years after the client terminated, I happened to be in a large event where the person was with the spouse. As therapists, we have a rule where not to ever acknowledge a client in public unless they acknowledge us and then rather perfunctually to preserve their confidentiality. So when I saw this person was I kind of put myself on the other side of the room, but I watched. And it was, you know, I could see this person trying to make a horse race of it with the

with the spouse. Five years after that, the client emailed me and said, nothing ever changed. It remained the same way. And at the end of it, it ended up really destroying our child's mental health. And I can't say that there was any self-satisfaction at that email. What broke my heart is that as a clinician,

you can see what's coming, especially for the children. You could see what a hard road it would be for a person like this. But that's not the only email I've ever gotten like that. And that when people would leave and they'd say, I'm going to try, I'm going to try, the trying and thinking it's going to get better is where our heart gets broken. But this person slated out the thing we know, it doesn't get better. And sadly, when ends up happening, is there's more collateral damage like children and other people close to you.

The best I could do at that point was give that person a referral and wish them well. But for that one story, there's millions more. So one of the other big takeaways today for me is that one of the other big takeaways today for me is that one of the reasons why somebody that has a narcissistic personality style is not going to change is because

you are basically disposable. It does that you don't matter enough to them, to have them put change ahead of themselves. To put change into, again, remember, to really create change, Mel. A person has to be willing to be attuned to their own vulnerability. That idea, there's no authenticity in narcissism, never belong in the same sentence because it doesn't happen. So, to be self-aware, to be self-reflective is to connect to our vulnerability. And now we're back to the psychological diarrhea.

So that constant sense of threat, it is yes, not only are other people disposable, they have to be disposable because now if other people aren't disposable, then they have too much power. And that's the challenge. So where I want to go next is to the title of your book, It's Not You. Because if 50% of people stay in relationships, whether it's with a parent or a partner, or they're not leaving, or even if they leave, there is a massive level of like wiring and trauma and abuse that you sustained that you have tools, you have all kinds of resources that you're going to share in the next part of our conversation. Thank you so much.

That's the, this new book is not about the narcissist. This time it's about healing. As I put it, it's the tale of the hunt told by the lion and not the hunter. It's time to talk about healing. As I put it, it's the tale of the hunt told by the lion and not the hunter. It's time to talk about healing. I can't wait to dig into that too, but before we do that, I want to make sure before we end, in case nobody else tells you, let me be the first person to say today that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I know based on everything that you've learned today,

you feel empowered to do that in your relationships. All right, I'll talk to you in a few days. I keep thinking about something that happened a week ago. I was just taking support. I keep thinking about something that happened a week ago. Oh, I'm still more frog, sorry. There was probably a three-year-old just sort of lounging and a stroller. And this three-year-old, oh, geez, do you have guys that have a lozenge?

I do. You do? Fabulous. Dr. Lobby. you guys have a lozenge? I do. You do, fabulous. Dr. Lovney. I could pull a lozenge out of my ass. That's pretty good. Fabulous, thank you. It's actually in my chair. That's probably the gross if that was the case.

Wow. I'm like, I mean, you know, I know this is how I know I'm an old person because I carry little wrapped candies around. I'm like, when does that happen? Apparently it's at 58, so. It does, you're right. I typically have candy in my bag too. And a banding. Yep. Yep. Yep. Walking for a state kit in CBS.

Good job. That's amazing. Oh, and one more thing. I no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyer's right and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll

see you in the next episode. Stitcher.