The Mel Robbins Podcast - The Exact Words You Need to Hear Today If It Feels Like Nothing’s Working

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Some days, the world feels like too much. The news, the stress, the noise. You start to wonder if you’ll ever feel right again. Then, out of nowhere, something lands in your lap that reminds you of what really matters. That’s what today’s conversation delivers: the exact words you need to hear if you’re feeling stuck in that negative place. In this deeply personal and moving episode, Mel sits down with one of the most extraordinary thinkers and poets of our time: Mark Nepo, the #1 New York Times bestselling author of The Book of Awakening, which has changed millions of lives – including Mel’s and her husband Chris’. Mark’s words have a way of cutting straight to the heart, gently opening something inside you that’s been closed for too long. You’ll learn: -The two questions that instantly open the door to connection with others and yourself -What it really means to follow your heart and how to trust where it’s leading you -How to find purpose, peace, and meaning - right where you are -How having a daily ritual can ground you when life feels overwhelming This episode is not just an interview. It’s exactly the reset you need. For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, check out this one next: A Process for Finding Purpose: Do THIS to Build the Life You Want. Connect with Mel:  Get Mel’s newsletter, packed with tools, coaching, and inspiration.Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-freeDisclaimer Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Have you ever had one of those days where the world, it just feels like too much, whether it's the news that's depressing or there's just so much going on at work or your life is so overwhelming and you just are not sure how you even going to get through the day? But then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you crack open. in a book and you read a passage or you hear a song playing or you see a quote online and it just boom drops into your day like an anchor cuts right through all the noise of the world and the headlines and it lands square in your heart and suddenly you can't explain it but you just feel

a little bit better it's almost as if that passage that you read or that song that you heard was meant just for you at this moment. Your shoulders drop. You can breathe again. You feel a little better. Well, I believe that this episode is going to do exactly that for you, that it was meant to find you at this moment in your life, that it's going to cut through the noise of the world and land deep in your heart. That's the magic of my guest today, Mark. Mark Nipo. He's the number one New York Times bestselling author of the seminal work, The Book of Awakening, which has changed millions of people's lives, including mine and my husband, Chris. This book is so important to me, it sits on my bedside table. I read it several days a week,

and Mark's writings are so important to me. They have shown up for me time and time again, exactly when I needed them most. So I am absolutely thrilled for him to be here for you and me. And wherever it is that you are at this exact moment, I promise you the sound of Mark's words, they are meant to find you. The rhythm, the poetry, there's something that you're about to hear that's going to touch something deep inside you. It's like being moved by a song, even if you don't know all the words yet. All you have to do is listen. And the priceless life wisdom that Mark Nippo is about to share, it'll do the rest. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

It is such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or you're here because someone shared this episode with you, I just want to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. You're about to meet a man whose words have lifted me up more times than I can count, and I guarantee he is going to do exactly the same thing for you today. Mark Nipo is the number one New York Times best-selling author of The Book of Awakening, which is one of my favorite books. I give it as a gift.

It sits on my ninth stand. I love it because it has 365 daily meditations that you can read that help you grow as a human being. Be in the moment. Live with more courage. Deep in your relationships and connect more deeply with, life itself. And I'm not the only one who loves Mark's writing. My husband Chris has read from the Book of Awakening for the last 10 years, and so have millions of people around the world, because it's celebrating its 25th anniversary this year. Now, Mark has also published 25 other books, including

his new best-selling book, The Fifth Season, Creativity in the Second Half of Life. Mark Nippo received his Ph.D. in English from the University of Albany, where he served for decades as a professor. But today, you and I are going to dig deep into the wisdom and the stories and the lessons from the book that has had one of the biggest impacts on my life. And I'm also thrilled that my husband, Chris, is joining me for the first time in our Boston studios to be a part of this remarkable and life-changing conversation. It is my absolute honor to welcome the extraordinary Mark Nippo to the Mel Robbins podcast. It's an honor to be here. I'm so appreciate you. You've all made me so welcome.

I'm just so looking forward to being together. Me too. And Chris Robbins, this is your debut in the Boston Studios. Thank you for being here, too. Thanks for having me in. So, Mark, I'd love to start by having you speak directly to the person who's here with us, who made the time to spend it together with you today and me and Chris and to learn from you. And I'd love to have you just speak to them and share what they could experience in their

life that could be different? Yeah. So first, thank you for being here and taking time to gather like this. I think some of the things that are so important and available to everyone is that life is always where we are. I think one of the big menacing assumptions in the modern world is that life is other than where we are. It's over there. You know, the FOMO, fear of missing out. You know, there is no there. There's only here. And great love and great suffering are the great teachers of this. I think one of the things in our age right now is that so many people seem to have lost their direct connection to life. And it is so isolating, is so challenging.

My job, whether it's in writing or teaching, my calling is to open a heart space that we can enter together. And in that heart space, we start to discover that we're more together than alone. I'm so happy you're here. Oh, me too. Well, your work has had a profound impact on my life, on Chris's life, on our family's life. And I'm talking about the book of awakening that I just have to say, Chris is the one who introduced your work to our family. And so before we share some of our favorite passages, can you talk a little bit?

about how you discovered this book or what this book means to you or what Mark's work has meant to you in your life? Everything. This book came to me when my heart was not open. I had gotten pretty heavy into meditation, was studying Buddhism, and somebody, we were talking about this concept of quieting the mind and meditation, and somebody said, oh, well, I just read one of these passages

before I drop in. And that was sort of the beginning of me finding this book. And I, you know, I think just looking back on what has been a decade plus of both reading and rereading this and sharing it profusely, it has been the source of my own awakening, if you will. And also just a reminder to your point about, how we don't you know nobody has the answers i love what you said earlier like we're all just here comparing notes and uh and this is a book that i give away in all of the men's work that i do thank you um it provides a light and a lens into uh our own humanity my own humanity Oh, thank you.

Thank you. You're welcome. It means a lot. I went through a large part of my life, closed off, and in my head, or detached or disassociated or anxious, or just like the doing and the climbing of the ladder and the getting to the next thing and go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, disconnected from life itself, as you would say, in terms of this feel of it. Like, there was so much of the doing and the achieving, and I just thought this is what life is. This is, and that is a form of life, and too many people get to their deathbed and realize that there could have been a different way to experience life and a different way to slow down and really, truly connect with what matters, and it's right there in front of you. And what I hope out of this conversation, because it's the thing that I've gotten out of your work, is, this ability to wake up from autopilot or from the feeling that you're in a relationship

that feels like roommates or that you are stuck or resigned or closed off, but you don't know how to access something else. There is something else that is possible. If the person listening really resonates with that sense that I've lost the direct connection to life or there's somebody in my life that I'm worried about who seems to have lost their direct connection to life. The spark's gone. They seem really stuck. You see the potential. You see the light. You're holding it out for them, but they don't see it. Or maybe the person listening doesn't feel it. What would you say to them, Mark? You know, I think two questions, non-judgmental questions. that I find myself asking both loved ones and students

and people I'm with, especially people who are struggling, is what's it like to be you right now? What's it like to be you? And the other is, what do you care about? And I invite them to tell that story. And not even, you know, tell them they're stuck. what good does that do or cheer up that ever work yeah what's it like to be you what's it like you know and this this came i learned this from you know i mean one of the best things for me about

teaching is in opening that heart space when people enter and are real when who's the teacher moves around the room it doesn't get better than that And in one of this story where this question came to me was I was teaching in Charleston at the Sophia Institute, a place I love. The question I had asked was, can you in pairs, broke up in little groups, can you share one thing you hold to be true with the other person? So this mother and son came up to me in the middle and the mother spoke. And she said, well, we're stuck. I said, well, what's going on? And meanwhile, her son, who was probably 28, 6, 4, you know, he's just got this wry smile on his face.

And she says, well, I told Jack what was true for me, but he said that he doesn't think anything's true. So we're at an impasse. And I didn't know I was going to say this, but because they share it, my heart said, well, I'm inviting you to listen to each other. So if your son moved to China, would you ask him, what's it like to live in China? What brought you there? Do you like living there? Do you see yourself staying there? Well, he's told you he lives in the land where nothing is true.

Can you ask him, what's it like to live in the land where nothing is true? What brought you there? And he's smiling the whole time, not saying a word, and they went back. Well, what happened in the retreat was there was another month. grieving that she had a son of a similar age, about a month earlier who died in a car crash. And watching this mother and son, she, a little later in the weekend, burst into tears and left the room.

And we took a break and made sure she was okay. And when she came back into the room, this young man who didn't believe anything was true was the first one to run across the room and sweep her up in his arms. Just. And so at the end of the retreat, as we were saying goodbye to different people, and he was taller than me. And I went up, he came up and I said, can I share something with you?

He said, sure. And I put my hand on his heart. And I said, whatever caused you to reach out to that grieving mother, that was true. Now that, you can't, you don't plan things like that. he who believe nothing was true was the teacher that weekend it's one of the reasons why i think this some of your teachings and your writings are so profound because you you're not offering answers and um even this book of awakening i think uh it doesn't lead people to what is true um it doesn't It doesn't force people to ask for help, but it does invite by way of the prompts and the reflections.

It inspires people to ask those questions. And I think for, at least for a lot of the people that I sit with, particularly men who are not inclined necessarily to ask for help or, hey, I'm going to get this done. I'm going to go it alone. I'm not sure that it's always so clear what is true or what help is required. And so I'm seeing, at least even in this conversation, that that's part of what, without me even knowing it, has spoken to me because it's given me the space and the presence of mind to even ask these questions of myself, or, I mean, in the case of Mel and I, just doing it together with friends and with one another, it's your story of that young man speaks volumes to that.

Oh, thank you. And this is the blessing, you know, because for me, it's, this is how I learn. The Book of Awakening sits on both sides of our beds because we do not. want to share a copy, although I am holding Chris's copy because I forgot to bring mine. And so I'm like, Chris Bringers. And it is a beautiful collection of daily reflections that were born out of a very challenging time of your life when you were dealing with a cancer diagnosis. So can you talk a little bit about that period of your life and what was happening that led to this series of essays? So when I was in my early 30s and, you know, I was, I was in just finished graduate school and I was, you know, I was a young poet who I hope maybe, maybe if I worked really hard, I might write one or two poems that maybe would matter or be thought of is great, you know. And then all of a sudden I was, you know, I was stricken with a rare former lymphoma and everything was upended and I was in the hospital.

and it was in my skullbone. It had grown to the size of a grapefruit. And then when someone told me I had cancer, I walked out that door, and that was the first life-changing moment because the door I had come in by was no longer there. Life before that appointment, there was no way back. And now I was in the new world. And now in that moment, everything was difficult, fearful, and then I had to somehow, you know, everyone, and this is the kind of common passage, everyone that all the spiritual traditions talk about, everyone will be dropped into the depth of life at some point. And sometimes, you know, a lot of times we talk about it because difficult, life challenging things bring us there. But it's not just that. It's not, we're not deifying suffering. It's not just that. It could be

wonder it could be beauty it could be being loved unconditionally for the first time you know it could be all kinds of things but it happened to be cancer for me and so in that journey i had to uh drop under the pain the fear the worry again not to run from it but to access something larger than me And this is maybe the difference between effort and grace, you know, so that you, the effort is to be ready so that when grace comes, you receive it. And, you know, and we can talk about grace very simply outside of religious connotations as the larger currents of life that we're always connected to, and if we're open to them, they will carry us.

I had never been through anything difficult, so I was terrified. I mean, every doctor or nurse I met, I said, I'm Mark, put me out. They thought put me out was my last name. And of course, I couldn't be put out because this was my journey. In order to be ready in case I needed to go into surgery quickly, they couldn't give me anesthetic ahead of time, so it wouldn't be used up. So I had to go through all these things pretty much. awake or with local or things. So there I was being challenged to feel it all, to face it all. So I had my first chemo treatment. I went into a holiday inn with my former wife and

dear, dear friend, who were still dear friends after all these years. And the only medicine they gave me was oral, so I started getting sick. This was after I had a rib removed in my back. So two weeks earlier, so I'm getting sick and throwing up every half hour and feeling like, It's got to stop. And I was feeling afraid in pain, not sure what's going on. And somehow, and this is what I mean about being ready for grace, all of a sudden the sun's starting to come up. And because I was open and maybe open because of all the pain, exhausted, it had occurred to me that somewhere nearby a baby's being born. And somewhere nearby a couple's making love for the first time.

And somewhere further down the road, a father and a son who haven't spoken years are finally sitting down and having coffee. And it was in that moment that I discovered that to be broken is no reason to see all things as broken. You know, I was raised Jewish. I have a great tie to the Jewish heritage. But through all this, I became a student of all paths. And that's informed all my books, all my teaching. And because then, and even all these years later, because the tumor in my brain vanished, that was a miracle, the surgery removed the rib, that was a miracle. Even the damn chemo was a miracle.

So I was not, and I'm still not wise enough to know what worked and what didn't. And I feel like I was challenged to believe in everything. And so I really see the common center of all formal and informal paths, the unique gifts of each, and how do we share them? How do we make use of them? Well, what I love about this book so much is, first of all, I really appreciate the format that there is an essay every day that you can read that takes you five minutes or less, but that, has you, as you say, drop into the depth of life. And I read a page and I drop in and feel very centered and connected to something larger and I feel very present in the moment. And then I close it and feel very satisfied. And if I read it the next day, great. If I forget about it and I open it up a

month later, great. There it is like an old friend to greet me. Yeah. And I would love Mark to have you read one of your favorite essays to give the person a sense? So yeah, so this is one of my favorite passages. It's June 6th, and it's called Two Monkeys Sleeping. We wandered into a corner of the Central Park Zoo, and there, despite the dozens of tourists pointing and tapping the glass, two monkeys were squinting on a perch of stone. To our surprise, they were both in deep sleep. Their dark heads bowed to each other, their small frames limp. What was amazing was that their delicate hands were touching, their monkey fingers leaning into each other. It was clear that it was this small, sustained touch that allowed them to sleep. As long as they were touching,

they could let go. I envied their trust and simplicity. There was none of the human pretense at independence. They clearly needed each other to experience peace. One stirred but didn't wake, and the other, in sleep, kept their fingers touching. How deeply rewarding the life of touch. Each was drifting inwardly, dreaming whatever monkeys dream. They looked like ancient travelers praying inside a place of rest made possible because they dared to stay connected. It was one of the most tender and humbling moments I've ever seen. two aging monkeys weaving fingertips as if their touch alone kept them from oblivion. I pray for the courage to be as simple in asking for what I need.

You know, I read that and I can picture it, and then I immediately have a very small-minded thought. How is it that Mark goes to the zoo and sees something? so profound and I see the other monkeys throwing poop and my stomach grumbling. And, you know, I'm joking, but we're talking about the heart space and we're talking about the depth of life. And we're talking about kind of the noticing of what's right here. What do you hope that that essay stirs for somebody? the courage to stay connected both to ourselves each other and this larger this larger mystery of life you know one of the things that is so important and so it's about you know chris as you

share we all share we all have times when we're closed and we don't realize it and so the first kind of practice is to open but then the next practice is is to connect, because, you know, if I open my eyes, what's the point if I don't see? And if I open my heart and I don't love, what's the point of opening it? So we have to open, and then we have to reach and receive while all the stuff is, while the poop is being thrown, while the, because, you know, we talk about things in life, we separate them so we can make sense of them, but that's not how they exist in life. So we talk about suffering and we talk about beauty.

But, you know, there's a great table, a beautiful, organized table of all the elements. But if you go and you cut into a mountain, they're all jumbled up. And that's the way life is. And so while we're suffering is when we need to let beauty in. While we're closed is when we need to find the quiet courage to open. While we're afraid. And if I can't do it, I need to ask you for help. that's the whole point of friendship you know one of the great i think central paradoxes of life is that

no one has been here who's you no one can see what you've seen or or live your life and no one can do it alone i think one of the modern psychological diseases is that we think we should do it alone and And so this, you know, this sense which goes back to manifest destiny in America, no, we're interdependent. We're interdependent. No one can live my life for me, but I can't do it alone. And I know this from all the things I've been through. Mark, I can't tell you how many times I've already gotten goosebumps in this conversation. And Chris, I am so grateful that you are here.

And I love that we are only getting started. so much more that we're going to dig into with Mark Nipo and my husband Chris. But let's take a pause so we can hear from our amazing sponsors. And I also want to give you a chance to share this conversation with people in your life. There's someone that you know and that you care about who needs this wisdom and this encouragement at this exact moment. So please take a moment and share this and don't go anywhere because we're going to be waiting for you after this short break. So stay with us. Welcome back at your friend Mel, and today you and I are spending time with a man

whose words have helped me and millions of others see the beauty in their lives and the world around them. I'm talking about the one and only Mark Nipo. He is here to do the same for you, and I am also joined by my husband, Chris. So Mark, my next question for you is, why do you think these simple things can act like such a lifeline or open you up when otherwise in life you kind of are going through life feeling very closed off and lonely. Yeah, I think that one of the things I mentioned earlier, but it's really been a great teacher for me is that great love and great suffering are the great openers. And, you know, there's two ways that human beings will basically learn.

by willfully shedding, and the other is by being broken open. And if you don't willfully shed, don't worry, you'll be broken open. And often it's a combination. And so words and phrases and expressions that matter are expressed in those openings. And therefore, whether it comes for me or you or a friend while you're struggling, those are the great openers. And then it's open, that's why it's important to have that heart space open. So when that comes, yes, a phrase, you know, I had a dear friend and mentor who lived to be 102, Joel Elkies, he was a child of the Holocaust, he was a doctor, he was a watercolorist. I met him when he was 80 and thought, how much time do we have?

and we had 22 years and you know one sentence he said to me when i was just beginning years ago was such an opening for me he said um you have a gift honor it and let it be your teacher and you know at a time when i wasn't sure i had a gift you know that was such uh such an such an opening for me that really has stayed with me my whole life. What does that mean, you think? Like, can you unpack that a little bit? You have a gift, honor it, and let it be your teacher. What is that?

Because you also said everybody has a gift. Everybody has a gift. So how do you honor your gift and how do you let that gift be your teacher? It could be, you know, you might have a gift for growing things. That's the call of your soul. Where we use it in the world, what is, how are you going to, grow things. Are you going to grow plants? Are you going to grow people? Are you going to grow children? Are you, you know, what are you going to grow? And so this is where we apply it in the world. So all of this is a journey. So to honor, and this is a very, so the word honor, you know, I love, as you know, from my writing, the origins of words, not because I'm a word geek, but because I've noticed that words erode over time, just like stone and wood, you know. And so when we go back, more often than not, their original, or as close as we can get,

their original definitions are more whole and so much more helpful. So, honor, I love the original definition of the word honor. Honor means to keep what is true in view. I love that to keep what is true in view. So for everyone who is with us and listening, how can you personalize, the practice of honoring. How do you keep what is true in view about what you know about yourself and your gifts? So I think that, you know, the first step for any of us is to, you know, the word trust literally means follow your heart. So to follow our hearts in a daily way, what brings you

more alive? What is heartening? Forget about whether it's a career or a project or just what do do during the day or that brings you more alive and then do more of it. It could be staring at the sky or it could be making meals for friends or it could be stamp collecting or it could be, you know, I have a dear friend, the friend Paul who helped me through my cancer journey all those years ago. And one of his great gifts, I mean, he did all kinds of things to make a living, but he followed so beautifully, you know, he, when we were in our 20s, he created an art gallery and that brought him alive. And it was a wonderful art gallery in Albany, New York, and then it changed.

And, you know, the next thing I knew, he was, you know, doing Sumi painting himself. And then, you know, another 10 years, he was apprenticing with a foreign car mechanic. and he just followed what brought him. And it wasn't, whether it was, quote, successful or not. It was just that what brought him alive shifted. I wouldn't even see, as long as we take the judgment out of it, not no longer works or didn't produce something. So, you know, one of the things that happens to all of us when we're young,

you're spinning in recess and the teacher says, boy, you're so graceful, you'd be a good dancer. or hear somebody singing la la la over in the corner you you should be a singer and now all of a sudden it gets in our heads from society and from okay what do i have to do to become a singer does that mean i have to take lessons does that mean i have to get a record recorded do i have to perform or if singing brings you alive whether you sing well or not you're a singer so how do we stay a verb and not become a noun and this is at the heart of finding our own gift

you know I think it was Howard Thurman who said we don't need we don't need people oh I can't remember the exact quote but the essence of it was we need people who are alive not people who are quote good at what they do because if we're alive we will be good at what we do well one of the things that brings me alive is reading from your book because i always drop in and so i want to read one to you and then i'd love to hear you kind of unpack this one so this one is may 19th and it's called the bee comes the flower doesn't dream of the bee it blossoms and the Be comes.

Oof, why am I crying? Mark, damn you. Oh, um, okay. Uh, at times of my life, I have wanted love so badly

that I have reimagined myself, reinvented who I am, in an attempt to be more desirable or more deserving, only to discover again and again that it is the tending of my own soul that invites the natural process of love to begin. I remember my very first tumble into love. I found such comfort there

that like narcissus, I became lost in how everything other than my pain was reflected in her beauty. All the while, I was abdicating my own worth, empowering her as the key to my sense of joy. If I have learned anything through the years, it is that though we discover and experience joy with others, our capacity for joy is carried like a pot of nectar and our very own breast. I now believe that our deepest vocation is to root ourselves enough in this life that we can open our hearts to the light of experience and so bloom. For in blooming we attract others. In being so thoroughly who we are, an inner fragrance is released that calls others to eat of our nectar. And we are loved by friends and partners alike.

It seems the very job of being is to ready us for such love. By attending our own inner growth, we uncannily become exactly who we are. And like the tulip, whose blossom petal is the exact shape of the bee, our self-actualization attracts a host of loving others more real

than all our fantasies. In this way, the universe continues, through the unexpected coming together of blossomed souls. So, if you can, give up the want of another and be who you are. And more often than not, love will come at the precise moment you are simply loving yourself. It's so beautiful. Oh, thank you. You read it beautifully. And you also give a prompt that helps you take it deeper.

You say, identify one trait that makes you feel good about who you are, your laugh, your smile, your ability to listen, or the sound of your voice. Take a moment and give thanks for your small goodness and for the potential love of others. It's so beautiful. The next time you exhibit this goodness, notice how who you are affects others. You know, what I get out of that, Mark, is how... It's so easy to kind of trash yourself and chase outside validation, but not many of us stop and actually appreciate small traits that we can love about ourselves. And these prompts have really helped me to slow down and to build this muscle where I just

notice things that I admire about myself. And that's, you know, it sounds kind of cheesy, but learning how to see things within yourself that make you proud of the kind of person that you are and really witnessing it, it does open up more feelings of appreciation and love and a sense of pride in who you are. And it's easy to look over these small things. We see it in other people,

but I think it's a new skill to learn to see it in yourself. So is that what you're trying to teach in that essay there, the importance of loving yourself, and how to start doing it? So one of the things about all my writing is that, like, the bee doesn't, the flower doesn't dream of the bee, it blossoms and the bee comes. I didn't know that when I started that.

And this is where over time I've discovered that the creative process and the introspective process are really the same thing. I just happen to write it down. And so there are so many lessons. and one of them, which is, again, the sense that we don't know. So for anyone, by being authentic, we are given insights. And so when I start things, I am following what is real or troubling or wondrous or confusing for me.

And then if I am true, I'm rewarded with an insight. And that, of course, is the insight of that whole entry. And I didn't know that. And then so now that becomes my teacher. And so this is how we can give our hearts attention, and what comes by being real gives us clues to our own gifts. And so one of the things that that reveals about a kind of like a law, if you will, of a spiritual law. You know, and often we see this with first love, you know, where in high school you love me, which means you see something in me I haven't yet seen. and now my god and i think you've got the switch to my light i can't let you out of my sight

which actually is very self-centered but nonetheless um you know i'm just like oh my god i'm head over heels and you know and what we learn over time is the greatest respectful gift we can give to someone who loves us is to own our own light you saw it but it's my switch And I see it in you and it's your switch. And we have to honor that in each other. And so this is one of the beautiful things is by being who we are, I mean, we do have to love ourselves first.

How, though, would you invite somebody who really wants to be more loving of themselves first and to, like, find the switch? So with all the things we're talking about, I would always try to come down to small, steps. Okay. And so one is, can you identify and spend time with one thing you feel good about yourself? Can you give me an example? You're a good listener. You're a good storyteller. You're good at showing up when people need you. You're good at asking questions. You're good at

the missing piece, you know, you're good at, you know, it could be a thousand things, but something little. And then to pay attention, not just that you feel good when you do it, but what is it opening in you? What's going on? You know, I always encourage people to use their own life as a case study. Just like DNA, everything's embedded, all of biology is embedded in DNA. Well, in our heart, everything, you know, when we touch something real, all of humanity is embedded in there. And so how do we, you know, so if I am good at listening to a friend, what does that tell me about my gift of listening? How do I then listen to myself? How do I take that listening and apply it to myself? Not to achieve anything.

but to grow more intimate with who I am. And once we're intimate with who we are, we also be, we enter our kinship with all things. Why does it begin with being intimate with yourself before you can be connected to everything else? Do you see what I mean? So to speak that, let me go out a little bit. And, you know, all those traditions speak about it,

But I really love how the Hindu tradition speaks about it. And so we all have heard the term namaste or namaste. I say namaste. That's the Brooklyn way of saying it. But what it means is, I honor to keep what is true in view, the portion of universal spirit that resides in you. So in the West we call that soul. In the east, they call it Ottoman, Buddha nature.

Christianity calls it the Holy Ghost. Judaism calls it Yahweh. You know, I mean, there's a thousand names. And so what I believe, and that's just my point on the circle in the Elder Council, is that just like the air in a bluebird house is a little portion of the sky. We call it the soul here. But we each carry a portion of universal spirit while we're here. So to become intimate with that allows us to be the inlet or the conduit between the world of spirit that's existed forever and going to the grocery store.

And so the heart again has to stay open, has to stay this open vessel between all of time and all of life and the person you help up who drop their groceries. And that's why we need to be intimate with our own nature so that we have access to more. There's a paradox that by knowing who I am, I can gain access to all I am not. I'll give you a very personal example that really when my father was toward the end of his life, and he lived to be 93, and we were estranged for many years. and then in his 80s we reconnected which I was so grateful for and um he was a master woodworker and you know so we never I was his firstborn son but we we never spoke the same language although I learned so much about creativity from him didn't he didn't teach it but by watching him

so at the end of his life he had had a stroke and was in the hospital and And he could speak, but it was so difficult, he just didn't try. And so I found myself in a very busy, he didn't have a separate room. And I was in a very, very busy hospital setting and beeping and TVs and clattering. And all of a sudden, I'm feeding him applesauce with a spoon. And it was sad and beautiful and bittersweet. And all of a sudden, it was my whole life. and that was putting a spoon in his mouth without hitting his teeth and he was, you know,

getting the applesauce and I'm crying and there we are. And again, going back to, you can't prepare for these things, but because my heart was open, all of a sudden I was in a moment of wonder. All of a sudden, not because I was looking for it, but because I held nothing back and I gave everything to that moment, I suddenly was in the moment of every adult child who ever fed a dying parent. And I wasn't alone by being thoroughly who I was called to by love, not by some exercise or because, oh, I'll try this. Just all of a sudden, I tripped into this amazing, inexplicable space. and it's changed how I think about resilience.

I think another form of resilience is when we are thoroughly who we are. So if I feel your pain, I am in suddenly the river of everyone who ever felt pain. If I feel your wonder, I'm in the river of everyone who ever felt wonder. And by being who we are, gaining access to the kinship of all things,

is an amazing form of resilience. You know, Mark, just like the words in the Book of Awakening, everything that you're sharing is giving me a lot to think about. And I can see you, Chris, nodding along, and I can feel you as you're either watching on YouTube or listening right now that you're nodding along to. So how about we take a beat? I want Mark's brilliant words and wisdom to sink in.

And I also want to give you a moment to share this with people that you care about. this is really a gift that you can give to somebody else that will awaken something within them at the exact moment that they could use it most. And don't go anywhere because we'll be waiting for you with more insights and more inspiration and more wisdom on how you can have the life you want by being present to the life that you have. Stay with me. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel, and today you're getting the exact words that you need to hear today from number one New York Times bestselling author and poet and philosopher Mark Nipo. Mark has had a huge impact on the Robin's household for the last decade, and I'm thrilled that he's here in the studio along with my husband, Chris, who introduced me to Mark's work in the first place. Yeah, I'm still here.

So, yes, I have a passage. April 26th, the way is hard but clear. Though it is the hardest going, the way is clear. The naturalist and environmentalist, Kevin Scribner, tells us that salmon make their way upstream by bumping repeatedly into blocked pathways until they find where the current is strongest. Somehow they know that the unimpeded rush of water

means there is no obstacle there, and so they enter this opening fervently, for though it is the hardest, going, the way is clear. The lesson here is as unnerving as it is helpful. In facing both inner and outer adversities, the passage of truth comes at us with a powerful momentum because it is clear and unimpeded. And so where we sense the rush of truth is where we must give our all. As human beings, the blocked pathways of our journey can take on many forms. And whether it be in avoiding conflict with others, or in not taking the risk to love, or in not accepting the

call of spirit that would have us participate more fully in our days, it is often easier to butt up continually against these blocked pathways than to enter fervently the one passage that is so powerfully clear. In this regard, salmon innately model a healthy persistence by showing us how to keep nosing for the unimpeded way, and once finding it, how to work even hard to make it through. Some say it is easier for salmon, since the power of their drive to end where they begin is not compromised by the endless considerations that often keep us from the truth. Still, it is the heart's capacity to rise one more time after falling down,

no matter how bruised, that verifies that such a drive lives in us too. Like salmon, our way depends not just on facing things head on. but in moving our whole being through. Thank you. I love that passage for a lot of reasons, but not the least of which, because I love fish and fishing and all the above. But it's part of the origin story, if you will,

in finding some of this work and your writing. is that I think that there were there were a lot of elements of what was going on in my life that were true. But they were all sort of in that confluence of water rushing, if you will,

and me not seeking that where the water was flowing the hardest, if you will. So when I read that, it just speaks to not only maybe some of the breakthroughs that I had for myself, but also just I'm often sharing this work with other men who are often working as hard as they can and feeling like they are. trying to nose their way through the tough stuff, but, you know, it's not when you're in the middle of it, certainly for the salmon in the middle of the river. Like, it's not always that, it's not always that apparent. Yeah. Of course, a lot easier to sit in the eddy and catch

your breath than really go for it. And so this is a lot of what I, find myself in conversation about is finding that at least discussing what could be true yeah and then trying to inch ourselves towards that rushing water well thank you and i i also feel it's important that in facing these openings that we can't do it alone and we don't have to do it all at once like I may find like oh there it is but I don't know if I can do it today and but I think it is and and you know for me I think my native the language I was born with was metaphor and and so I've always seen things in looking at things and and then work to find out what the teaching is and and in that one you know I think it also speaks speaks to how we're often humbled into letting go of where we think we're going. I wanted to dig more into that essay, Chris, because when you read it as the salmon, and if you've ever seen salmon swimming upstream and they're leaping up with the water

leaping up and they're efforting their way, I think if I had to guess why there's so much emotion, It's that oftentimes where the water is rushing, you are actively resisting going there, whether it's ending the relationship or admitting to yourself that you're not happy, or it is getting sober, or it's deciding that you want to have a deeper spiritual experience that you deeply... Or all of the above. Just do them all in once. But that you know and you feel the pull, but you spend for many of us years, if not decades of your life, bumping against the rock,

feeling the pull, and scared to turn toward it. And I think that's when you get this lesson and you get it over and over in life and you go, oh, of course. Oh, I wish I would have made that decision five years ago when I first felt the water rushing there, but I was scared. And then you, like, I feel like your tears, because you sit in circle with so many men on sole degree your retreat, that you see the pain that we cause ourselves unknowingly because we are scared of that rushing water. and scared of where it's leading.

And so I'd love to hear, is that, I mean, I'm just throwing it into the circle here. I mean, I think the way you describe it is spot on. I mean, it's, if you take the salmon out of it, I often think about it, kind of like, you know, Superman must feel right before he breaks his face through the brick wall and sort of gets to the other side, if you will. That is where the most force or to what you're saying, Malo, just about resistance and how, of course, resistance pops up often and just fear.

Well, if I go back to what you said, Mark, the word trust, is follow your heart. Yeah. And a lot of times in life, that rushing current, you know deep down is where your heart is leading. Well, and so let me, so, you know, and I think it also can be up here in many ways that, that clear rush way. It can be, it can be admitting what is true. It can be admitting our limitations. You know, it can be putting down a dream that turned out to be a cocoon for the dream we didn't see coming. And I also think that, you know, I mean, you're a compassion.

for those you work with is so touching. And it challenges us that we can't rob anyone of their journey. And all we can do is help them. I mean, certainly, if you fall down, I can help you up. If you're bleeding, I can get a band-aid or call the doctor. But inwardly, this is what compassion really means. The word literally means to be with. And so to be with you means I agree to feel your pain.

man yeah i agree to feel your joy but i can't this is another example of like no one can live your life but we can't do it alone you know one of the things in our world that that that's that we suffer in the modern world especially in the west is you know we feel like we're entitled to a stress-free uh conflict-free sensation-free existence well that's death you know if we're here the full what we learn from is the full range of being human which includes all of it and so you know to follow your heart and trust that you'll feel things and you may get nicked and you may break a leg or you may break your heart but the portion of universal spirit that you're blessed to carry is stronger and more whole

and we'll carry you through it. And also the humbling thing to always ask for help. Is there something that you say to yourself when you are standing before one of those walls of fire in life? You know, there are cloudy days, but the sun never stops shining. That doesn't mean that when you're under a cloud and it's strong, that's real, it's wet, it's damp,

you get cold and the sun doesn't stop shining and we are challenged with the open heart to relate to both you know the old saying that is the glass half full or half empty it's always both i find that such a useless because then we spend time either trying to be in the head full side or the it's always both and what we're talking about the challenge of being fully here is how do we stay in relationship to both? I always say when people say that, it's really about the glass. And you can fill it with whatever you choose.

And you can empty it out, which forces you to be in relation to what's in it. That's wonderful. You know, if the person who's listening, Mark, is like, I just want to look at life the way that Mark does. where do you suggest that they begin well the first thing is i encourage you not to look at life as i do but to find your own direct connection with life and i'll meet you there and this is so important because it's not about being like anybody else we start by admitting what we've done

don't know. We start by opening our heart. And there's a practice, the word admit, and I love this because it has two meanings. Admit means to declare or confess what is true, but it also means to let in. And these things work together. The more that I admit what's true, the more I let in. The more I let in, the more I'm capable of admitting what's true. So I invite people to start by admitting what is true. You know, Mark, I love that you said that because one of the things that I believe and I say a lot is that all it takes to change your life for the better is to admit that how your life is right now or certain aspects of it doesn't make you particularly happy. That just declaring that truth allows in a different possibility.

I think, you know, in one of my poems, I don't have it with me, but there's a line that the most powerful thing we can do when feeling powerless is admit what is true. Because so often, you know, I'm afraid of being lonely and I already am. I'm afraid things are going to change. They've already changed. And often the heart knows first and we play catch up. And so this is also why it's so important, again, because we're human. And so a lot of the things we talk about about being blocked or being struggling and all these different things.

I think of them not as deficiencies, but as developmental aspects of our journey. What do you do when you wake up in the morning? I mean, I wake up, I get out of bed, I make the bed, I brush my teeth, I go for a walk, I read a, you know, page in your book, a lot of mornings to anchor me. But what do you do first thing in the morning? So the first thing I do, and this opens up a wonderful thing I'd love to talk a little bit about. So I'm up, my wife, Susan, is kind of a night owl and I'm a morning person, which actually gives us kind of good alone time at either end of the day.

And we don't have kids, but a very spoiled yellow lab, Zuzu. And so the first thing I do is I do three simple things. as rituals to start today. I open up the blinds to let light in. I take care of something living, but I take care of feeding Zuzu. And then I do something for someone

I love. I make coffee for Susan before she wakes. So I invite people who are with us and watching or listening to think of your own simple rituals, because when I inhabit them fully, they change

the whole day. so this brings up the difference between ritual and habit so when I'm present to it I'm letting the light in caring for something living and doing something for someone I love and that aligns me going back to the the will in the river that aligns me um for the day now if I'm late I go oh no I got to open the damn blinds I got to feel feed the dog. I love you, but uh, well, that just turned into a habit. I just had a huge breakthrough. I realize that there's something I do every morning that I didn't even realize as part of the morning. I literally, when I open my eyes, especially when we're home, I look right

out the window. And I say, because we don't close the blind. And I savor what I see. And I had never thought about the grounding ritual that keeps you connected to something bigger rather than the things that I do that are part of the way I set up the day that do feel like the doing versus the being. So what is the difference between ritual and habit in your words? Like how do you define that? So it's being present and openhearted. So the thing about self-awareness, and this is a good example of the work of self-awareness. So I'm rushing through. I'm late. Oh, I got to open the damn blinds. But I can stop and go back and say, I'm going to be present and make it a ritual again. We can do that like that. So it led me to look, to find the orange in the word ritual,

which goes back to a Sanskrit word R-T-A-R-T-A, Arta, which means the hidden order of the universe. So rituals that we make ritual by being present, an open-hearted, reveal the hidden order of the universe. And it's something that anyone can do, even in the middle of the day, if you realize you're not,

present. Stop. Okay. No judgment. Back up. Do the simple thing openheartedly. Can you give us a couple examples of a ritual or a number of rituals that the person listening can start to implement in their life or start to practice in their life to be able to tap into this power? Yeah. So, you know, anything that you do either beginning the day, ending the day, or during the day, just choose three simple, simple things. It may be watering the flowers. Be open to the water, feeding the flowers as they grow. And what that mirrors in you that is growing. or you know even you know dropping something off for someone you're leaving a meal for someone anything that you can open your heart to to take in what it really means what it really means and so and that become you know it could be you know it could be making the bed you know i have a poem i don't have it with me, but it's a poem where the first part of the poem, I go, oh, I got to make

the bed every day. What's the point? And I got to pay the bills. And I, uh, you know, and I, and then in the poem, a friend calls up and says, you know, it's such a wonderful day. I get to make the bed and I get to pay the bills. And so, again, the glasses both half full and half empty. Being human, there will be days when we feel like, I got to do this again. But by staying open-hearted and admitting and being present, we recover the miracle of it. And the goal is not to eliminate one of the other because we're human. So how do we be kind to ourselves and go, yeah, there will be days that I'll feel like I don't believe I have to do this one more time. But let life unfold. And tomorrow will you say, oh my God, I get to make the bed and wake up and look out the window.

And one other thing I'd say about this for me. And I don't, you know, so years ago, I would always do the tedious things first and save the really sacred things when I got all that done. Nobody taught me to do it that way. Somehow I did that. I had it backwards. By doing what matters first, it changes the entire day. How?

Because my lens, my aperture of heart and mind, is wider and deeper, and the tasks are not as tedious. It doesn't mean I enjoy, you know, it's not like reframing that something tedious is suddenly wonderful, but it takes the edge off of all that. I really want to get to your new bestselling book, The Fifth Season, which is all about creation. creativity in the second half of life, and you write beautifully in this book about growing older with purpose. And I'd love to have you talk a little bit about what you've learned about purpose and creativity as you have gotten older, that you wish you had known a long time ago. And look, I realize that you couldn't have known it a long time ago because you now know it based on your experience. But... Yeah. And one of the things I find myself saying more often,

as I get older, is whatever it is, like, you know, I wish I'd known this five years ago or this, is that we're always right on time. As much as we wanted it to happen, we can't. You can't, you know, the things that I'm writing now, I couldn't have written 20 years ago, 30 years ago, because I hadn't experienced what I've experienced. So, you know, I start the book with a metaphor that has been such a teacher for me, And it's the metaphor of a meteor. Now, as a meteor comes into the atmosphere, very few land on Earth.

Most of them are burned up. So what happens is a meteor comes into the atmosphere, and as it starts to flake off, as it gets brighter and brighter until there's nothing left but light, I think this is a good metaphor for the journey of a spirit and a body in time on Earth over a lifetime. Right. Now, you know, we don't like the flaking off. You know, my back surgery was flaking off.

You know, the arthritis I'm starting to feel is a flaking off. But I am getting brighter and brighter. And in letting that light that's coming through me be my teacher. So I think, and so one of the things that happens, too, is I think our horizons shift. You know, I'm 74. I sure hope I live to be 100. You know, my great-grandmother lived to be 105. And my grandmother, 94, so, you know, I'm hoping. But regardless, there's more years behind and ahead. And so the horizon shifts in that, you know, the true purpose of looking forward or back, is to make my light brighter now. So this brings in the true purpose of memory.

Memory is not nostalgia. Nostalgia is wanting to go back and live in a time because it feels like that was better than now. The true purpose of memory I'm finding is if there was a time in my past where I felt a certain aliveness or a wonder or a gift or love, can I revisit that to remember what it feels like to trace and see where it is in me now?

So I can recover it now, not go back to then. And the same thing with dreams at this stage of life. If I'm dreaming forward, it's because, because I'm allowing something in me that wants to be born to come out. And how do I take that and see where it lives in me now? So actually, I'm learning this later in life. It's actually very helpful practice no matter what age you are. If there's kind of one message that you hope someone carries with them after being here with us,

and really taking in the gifts that you've given us today, the things that you've shared with us, what do you hope the person carries away from this conversation? Well, that we are more together than alone and that we need each other. And I would also, you know, I would want to share maybe two notions. about faith and a poem. Sure.

And the notions about faith, one is the Buddhist word for faith is sadha. And it means, and I love this expression, it means resting the heart in what is true. Resting the heart in what is true. And I think that's an inner definition of not faith in a doctrine or a tradition or a saint or a sage, but functional faith.

and all the things we've been talking about, opening, admitting, opening a heart, you know, ritual versus habit, all of these things, courage, surrender, there are ways to rest the heart in what is true. And that lets us stand by our core. And the outer sense of faith, functional faith, is I refer to Paul Tillick, who was a Protestant theologian, and he said, faith is an act of ultimate concern. I love that. So what I love about both of those is by resting our heart in what is true, what's in the heart comes out through the hands in the world. so how do we practice personally

resting our heart in what is true and giving ourselves to acts of ultimate concern and I think those are two wonderful practices to devote ourselves to so the poem I'd love to end with is one of my poems called free fall if you have one hour of air and many hours to go you must breathe slowly if you have one arm's length and many things to care for you must give freely if you have one chance to know god and many doubts you must set your heart on fire we are blessed each day is a chance we have two arms fear, wastes, air.

Mark Napo, what are your parting words? You know, my parting words is that life is more than anything we could dream of if we truly meet each other and meet ourselves right here, right now. Well, I want to thank you for teaching me how to do that. And I want to thank you for getting on a plane and coming here to our studios in Boston and sharing everything that you did. It has been a real honor to finally meet you. And I am so excited by the ripple of positive change and consciousness. that will spread around the world in ways that we will never know

because of the person that is listening today who shares this experience with people that they deeply care about. So I want to thank you. From the bottom of my heart for making a huge difference in my life, I want to thank you, Chris. I love you. Thank you for being here. I love you too.

And I want to thank you for choosing, to spend time listening to something that could open up your heart and change your life. And as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you in case nobody else does today that I love you and I believe in you and your ability to create a better life. And opening yourself up to the magic of life itself, that's certainly going to help you create a better life. And I really want that for you. So that's all I got to say, because I think I've got to go cry or read. a Mark Nipo passage, but I'll be waiting for you in the next episode. I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there.

I don't want to run into the bass. I do too. Okay. We're connected in the spiritual river running energy. All right, good. Yes, we all have to pee. Okay, I do anyway. Oh my, why am I already crying? Damn it, Chris. What? over a crest. I'm a bad influence. I see him welling up over every word that you say. I hear that like

narc, Narc, why can I talk, Trace, like nar, this is actually a flower, Narcissus. Narcissus. Why can I? Oh boy. Wait, is that?

It's outside. Oh, it's outside? Oh, my God. It sounds like it's next door on the left. Wow. Well, thank you both. this has been so wonderful to be in such a deep space with you both. Chris don't do shallow. I try, but Chris always drags me into the deep.

His damn questions and is listening and his open heart. All right, great. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyer's right and what. I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute

for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Thank you.