The Mel Robbins Podcast - The One Tool to Transform Your Relationships: The Let Them Theory

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

If there’s someone in your life you wish you were closer to, but it sometimes feels like there’s an unspoken tension between you, this episode is for you. Today, Mel sits down with her oldest daughter, Sawyer, for a raw and transformative conversation about repairing relationships and closing the invisible distance that so many of us feel with the people we love most.Together, they share the story of how writing The Let Them Theory healed their relationship and reveal three powerful tools that can help you do the same.Whether it’s with a sibling, a parent, an adult child, or your partner, this conversation is a gift—one that will help you let go of resentment, show up differently, and create the deeper connection you’ve been longing for. Get ready to finally have the relationship you’ve always wanted. Get the book: “The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions of People Can't Stop Talking About”For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page.If you liked this personal episode, you’ll love this one, in which Mel and her husband Chris have a very candid conversation about their marriage of 28 years: How To Create Better Relationships: 6 Surprising Lessons From 28 Years Of MarriageConnect with Mel:Get Mel’s new book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel’s personal letter Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to ad-free new episodes Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so glad that you press play and that you're listening to this conversation right now because you and I are going to talk about something incredibly important. And that is that there's a relationship in your life right now where there's just this unspoken tension with another person. You want to be closer, you want to have more fun, but you're just not sure what to do. Well, that was me and my oldest daughter Sawyer for a long time.

And today Sawyer and I are going to sit down with you and we're going to unpack the issues that we had in our relationship with you and talk about this invisible distance that both of us felt. I mean, even when we were having fun, and we really love each other and we have a lot of fun together, but there was just something in the way, you know? And we both wanted to be closer and not offend each other or upset each other or say things that we didn't mean to say. And it's like neither one of us knew how to bridge the gap or create a closer connection and we didn't even quite understand what was off.

And as you listen to my daughter and I unpack the things that we realized about our relationship and more importantly, we shared two things that happened this year that we discovered that brought us closer than ever. I want you to be thinking about the relationships in your life because there is somebody in your life right now that you wish you were closer to, but there's just this unspoken tension. Or you show up and you have the best of expectations and you really wanna have fun and things are okay for a day,

but then it's just the same old argument and baggage and you just wish it could go away. And the truth is I've got some really good news because that's exactly how my daughter and I felt for years. And we've now figured it out. We've made our relationship better. And the good news is in any relationship, all it takes is you. If you change how you show up, everything changes in the relationship.

So whether you're now thinking about your mom, or you're thinking about how you've been fighting with your spouse and you wish you wouldn't, or you've got tension with one of your adult kids, or maybe the tension and this invisible distance is with a sibling. You were once close, but now you're not. And you can blame it on their spouse, but it's really in between the two of you. This conversation is one of the biggest gifts I could give you, because I'm gonna explain that that invisible distance, that's something that you can close. You can improve your relationships.

You can create a closer connection. And following the two things that my daughter and I are going to teach you today that work for us, that's one of the biggest gifts you could give to yourself and every relationship in your life. relationship in your life. Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. It is always such an honor to spend time and be together with you. I am so excited that you hit play today, that you're here for this conversation.

This one is going gonna be amazing. And the reason why is I'm sitting down with my oldest daughter, her name is Sawyer, she's 25 years old, and we have just spent the last year writing the Let Them Theory book together. And the process of not only learning about the Let Them Theory and writing this book together, it has healed our relationship.

And this is going to be one of those conversations that I know is going to be deeply personal. You're going to see yourself in everything that we're talking about. And you're going to leave not only with a deeper understanding of the let them theory, which is this mindset tool that I discovered, I don't know, about two years ago, that really helps you understand what's in your control and what's not in your control. And it helps you to focus on what you are in control of, which is what you think, say, or do, and to just let other people be. Let them live their lives, let them have their opinions, and really focus on your response.

And a funny thing happens when you start to implement the let them theory in your life. When you start to say let them and you let people be themselves, you create space for change and transformation. Like it's kind of crazy. The more you stop trying to control everybody else, the more control you gain. The more you let other people be themselves, the better your relationships become. And what I'm going to do today with you is I'm inviting you to sit down with me and my daughter and we're going to unpack our mother-daughter relationship. And I promise you, you're going to see yourself, you're going to see yourself with your siblings,

you may see yourself with your parents, you may see yourself with your adult kids, you will definitely see yourself with your significant other whether you're married or dating or whatever, because the ultimate topic that we're talking about truly is that in most relationships there's this invisible distance between you and another person. It's sort of this space that gets created over time with the people that you've known the longest or the people that you love the most or the people that you're related to. And it's this distance that gets created. It's like death by a thousand cuts.

The small things that you try to let go, the passive aggressive comments, the things that you feel kind of resentful or upset about that maybe happened in the past that you've never quite gotten over. It's not even that the relationship's horrible. Maybe it's that you really wish you were closer to your siblings, but there's just something there that you can't explain that makes it feel impossible to just feel closer. Or maybe you wish there was just less drama and friction with your adult kids or with your parents or with their significant other.

That there are times where it's fun, you really think things are okay, but you just can't quite get closer and have it be better all the time. And so in the process of working on the LetThem Theory book over the last year and using the LetThem Theory, my daughter and I truly, deeply, authentically, for real, erased the distance, and really became close in a way that we both really wanted to, but never knew how. And so I invite you to pull up a seat and to join me and my daughter, Sawyer. And before we jump in, I just want to take a moment, too,

and welcome you if you're brand new. Because if you're listening to this episode as the first episode that you're listening to of the Mel Robbins podcast, it tells me something about you. First of all, either somebody that really loves you and wants to either be closer to you or wants you to be closer to people in your life, sent this to you. Which means you have people around you that deeply care about you. And they wanted you to listen to this because they know that this conversation is going to help you improve your life and your relationships and it will. The second thing it tells me is that you actually care about your relationships because you saw this episode and you hit play.

And so my daughter and I are sitting down and we are going to unpack the lessons that we've learned the hard way. So hopefully we can save you the headache and heartache and upset and distance that we created in our relationship as mom and daughter. And you can learn from our mistakes and you can learn from the things that we learned this year as we used the let them theory.

And as we wrote about it and researched it. And there's one thing I know for sure. You will never look at relationships the same again after joining me and my daughter Sawyer. And with that, I just said your name very weird Sawyer. I don't know why I said it weird like that. Sawyer, Sawyer, Sawyer. Sawyer, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Thanks for sitting down with me. Thanks mom. And so I guess where we should start is we're gonna tell you a little bit about our relationship prior to the past year, where we've had this experience of working together on this project of writing and then releasing the Let Them Theory book.

And it all happened by accident. None of this happened on purpose. And that's another really important thing, that at any moment you can change the way your relationship feels. And as Sawyer and I are sharing with you our experiences and what our relationship used to feel like, I'm just going to ask you to be thinking about the people in your life, whether it's a sister or brother, or it's an in-law, or it's a colleague at work,

or it's a friend that, I don't know, it's like the way that I would describe our relationship, and then I'm going to just throw it over to you almost like a professional roasting, Sawyer, is that I desperately wanted to be closer to you, but I didn't know how to be. Your turn. wanted to be closer to you, but I didn't know how to be. Your turn. That's it, okay. Good setup. I think I always wanted to be, I knew I always wanted to be closer with you.

And I think if I think back to before working together, I think if I think back to before working together, our relationship, it wasn't horrible. I do have to preface. It was not horrible, but I don't think it was great. I want to dig in here because I would put our relationship story, you're 25. You're the oldest of three. I'm 56. Compared to a lot of people's relationships, our relationship is great.

We talk a lot, we respond to each other's texts, we love seeing each other, but there was something underneath the surface that made it not so great. And what was that for you? And please, just let me have it. Don't worry about my feelings. Just the more you can explain your experience as the daughter, I think the more powerful this conversation is going to be for the person that is here with us right now.

So everything that I'm about to say, I think was very unintentional on your part, but I think after a lot of therapy and just reflecting on myself, and I think especially working with you, I've recognized this since, but before growing up, I always thought it was intentional. And so I think a huge thing is the fact that you were never home and you were always on

the road. And then when you came home, all you did was talk about work. And I think that from my perspective as your kid, all I wanted you to do when you came home was like, come to my games and prioritize me and give me attention. And it just felt like it wasn't there unless we were asking you about your work. And I think on a separate note, my sister Kendall, she is younger than Mish by 18 months. She is a phenomenal singer and she is pursuing a career out in LA and she grew up as the spotlight and I think she is on the same track as you in being in the spotlight and being out in the world and people recognizing you, which is unbelievable.

But I think I saw the both of you always relating on that and feeling very jealous that I didn't have a natural talent that I could deliver that would connect me to the two of you. So I always saw you guys as on the other side of the room and her getting all the praise for all the singing and what she deserves and is amazing. But at the same time, I was just like, oh, I can't relate to my mom or my sister. Like I'm different. I don't have a natural ability. Every time I'm addressed, it's, oh, you're Kendall's sister.

Oh, are you the singer? Or are you Mel Robbins' daughter? That's awesome. It's never like, oh, you're Sawyer. It's so nice to meet you. And so as always, I was a product of you or Kendall. And I think that that really made me, I think just resent you, honestly.

And so instead of being really celebratory of your work and how much you worked and just you as a person, I think I saw it as all these fans, all these people out there who love my mom are taking my mom away from me. And so therefore, I'm not annoyed at all them, I'm annoyed at her. If you go back in time though, and if you could explain even how this dynamic was in place before the level of kind of recognition that this podcast has brought, because it's a whole, in my experience,

it's a whole different ball game in the past two years than it was when we lived in Sherbourne. And so could you share a little bit about your experience even in middle school and high school and in middle school, you were on the road upwards of 200 days in the year. And I think as you were gone, I always, I felt myself growing closer to dad and growing closer to Kendall and Oakley because we're always together. And then when you would come home, it felt like I think it was a story I was telling myself, but it felt in my eyes like you either were talking about work or you were talking about Kendall. And how are we going to grow Kendall's singing career? And how are we going to do this? And all of the plays and all this stuff, which is unbelievable. But I think that that was really my impression is she's a workaholic, which she still is.

But I have more of an appreciation for it now. And the fact that I just had this story in my head that it was like all I wanted was your attention and I felt like it was going everywhere but me. I think it was. It definitely was. And I'm sorry. That's okay. It's not okay.

I forgive you. Well, I think every working parent, especially those of us that have a job that requires travel kind of has that like, in your heart, because there are times in your life where just out of necessity, you got to be on the road because that's what your job demands. And I guess I was lucky enough that dad was home full-time. But I do agree with you that I was consumed with work because I was so scared about the amount of debt we were in and just the relentless pressure I felt for almost a decade to be able to replace all the money that we had lost in the business and to get out of credit card debt and to be able to pay for college and do some of the things that I wanted to do.

And you're right, like too many people, I spent too many years working and chasing the next thing because of the debt we were in, and I missed out on a lot. And so I can see why your experience was that I was always gone and when I was home I was talking about work or I was getting ready to leave on the next trip or, you know, Kendall who is definitely way more emotional than you are, at least outwardly, was getting a lot of the attention. And I think this happens a lot with the oldest kid that you kind of assume the role of responsibility and you became very stoic. And as much as I was trying to reach you, I didn't worry about you as much because you didn't emote as much. And that's not your problem as the parent, it's my responsibility to know who you are and to find ways to really reach you,

but I didn't know how. It almost felt like, especially in high school, that you were pissed off at me and that you had crossed your arms and you were standing off on the side and that you were like, you're not gonna get to me. You don't get access to me. Is that true?

I think looking back, I padded a little bit for sure. But it was, I think definitely a little emotionally immature acting like an eight year old, which you'll learn in the Let Them Theory book. I think another thing with families that happens a lot is I naturally am a lot more similar to dad. And Kendall is a lot more similar to you. And I think Oakley is like a beautiful combination of you both.

It's not like something horrible happened. No, not at all. This, I think most relationships have this like invisible distance. And you can feel it and you can't quite understand why it's there. And if it's with somebody that you deeply love and that you have cared about for a long time, that distance and that sort of resentment that starts to build up is death by a thousand cuts. That's what it is. It's over and over and over again, somebody feeling like they don't matter to you. And you know the parent, Sawyer, it's your responsibility to make sure that your children know that you matter to them. It's not your responsibility as the child to make me know that I matter to you. It's my responsibility as the parent to provide that to you, just

like it's my responsibility to provide you with food and water and shelter. Me showing up in a way that makes you feel seen, me showing up in a way that makes you feel like you're a priority, me showing up in a way where I'm actually emotionally calm and I'm not tantruming or taking my stress out on all of you. That was something I didn't do. And so I did not provide you with what you needed. I fully owned that. I appreciate you saying that. Love you.

And I also want to say though that I think there was a lot of times in our relationship where you really did try. You actively were constantly trying to break the barrier between our relationship. What were some of the things that I tried to do? Because I know what I tried to do. Well, first of all, you tried to, let's go to the mall. Let's buy you a few things so you don't dislike me. Which I think for those of you whose love language is gifting, I think it worked in

the moment and then the next day something would happen that would reconfirm this story I was telling myself that she doesn't care about me and then it was back to this force field between us. And that's what I was going to say is that I think there was things that happened over time that raised the force field and then everything after that just reconfirmed it and made me feel like I was always already listening for that message versus I completely shut out the, you matter, here's your gifts, here's that, the other, like, I'm showing up to your game. I already had decided in my mind that this is the story I'm going to tell myself, which

is my mom doesn't care about me and I am going to go pout in the corner so she comes closer and closer to me versus trying to approach you in another way. And I think what didn't help that is that outside of the house and outside of our family, every single second, it was getting reconfirmed by strangers and by my friends, which is, oh, your Kendall sister, oh my God, Kendall's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh my gosh, you're Mel Robbins' daughter, I love her so much, like, can you give me your number so I can get to her,

like, give me your email so I can get to her. It was always like, how can I use Sawyer to get to Kendall or mom? And so I think that that, it was in the house I was telling myself this, but also outside, it was kind of like other people were reconfirming that for me. And so it made the force field like indestructible. I think that that's a very common experience, even when someone in your family doesn't have a public-facing career.

Like if you're the person in your family that's the middle child in a big family, or you're the youngest in a big family, you feel invisible. And you show up at school and you're Joey's little brother, or, oh, here we go, we've got another, you know, one of the Mitchells, or, you know, here comes another Jones through the school. That you start to feel invisible in the kind of reputation of the family or what your siblings did ahead of you. So I think that that's a very common thing. So would you say that once you decided my mom doesn't care about me, it was going to be very difficult for me to somehow shatter that force field that you put up? Yes. Why do you put up? Yes. Why do you say that?

I think it wouldn't be until I showed up differently that our relationship would get better. Really? Yeah. I'd like to know I had more power here. I'd like to know I had more power here. Well, I appreciate you saying that because it takes time to shift the dynamic. And if somebody is committed to making you the villain in their story, or if they're committed to being the victim every time they tell the narrative of their family, it's pretty hard for people to let go of victimhood.

It's pretty hard for people to change the identity that they got screwed over or that their family, everybody's crazy or nobody cares about them or I make the effort but nobody else does. And when you get on that storyline, it's a very powerful thing to tell yourself because you feel right and anger and resentment, it can become the substitute for the love that you actually crave. And the second that you say, well, I was wrong about them, or you attempt to step out of the story where you're the victim and you step

into someone else's shoes and try to understand what it might've been like for them, just to see a different perspective, nothing's gonna change. But in the conversation today, I actually do think people can change. I do think if you're willing to examine your own storyline and ask yourself,

well, I realize that this has been the story. I realize that it's been for a long time that my sister doesn't care about me or that my in-laws are selfish or that I'm invisible in my family and nobody cares. If that's the story and it's been this way for a very long time, nothing is gonna change unless you ask yourself the question,

well, what do I actually want? Is this how I want it to be? And if you don't want it to continue to be this way, the one person that can change it is you. And I wanna be very clear, your experience as a child is exactly aligned with the mother that you had. I was not available. I was desperately trying to save our

family from financial ruin. And I was in panic mode all the time. And I didn't know how to build a business. I didn't know how to do what I was doing. And so I was constantly feeling behind and I could not do what I was doing and also be an awesome mom at the same time. And so I own that and I also though thank you and I appreciate that you can from where you are now and looking back at the dynamic, see what was on my side in terms of the responsibility, and also be mature enough to say, I can see that I crossed my arms back in elementary school and was like, well, she likes Kendall more, and I'm more like dad, so I'm just going to go over here in the corner and be silent and hold it all in and see if she notices me. I think you were trying to reach out your hand

towards the end. And I think I still was in that cross my arms, I'm mad at you and I like to be mad at you because then you give me a more attention phase. Ooh, can we just stop right there? Because I think that's something people can really relate to. That if I'm mad at you,

I'm naturally going to want to make it up to you. And I have this dynamic with people in my life where I feel I'm constantly in trouble and they're keeping score and that when they're annoyed with me and I can hear it in their tone of voice that I now have to somehow smooth this over. And I definitely felt that dynamic with you. And I love that you can admit that you liked being mad at me. Yeah, it was great. What was great about it? No, seriously, what was great about it? I felt like when I was mad at you, then you actually gave me the time of day. gave me the time of day. And it wasn't until I was in tears or I needed help or I needed some advice,

aka your career, that you actually genuinely were paying attention to me without your phone in your hand, without thinking about other things. It was almost like if I was in trouble or I was mad at you or I was in an emergency situation, that is when I would get your full attention and that is the only time I would get your full attention. And so I felt like I was training you unconsciously. Like I had no idea that I was doing this, but that I was training you unconsciously. Like I had no idea that I was doing this, but that I was training you to come closer to me whenever I was mad at you. Wow. You did.

Cause my experience of being your mother is that especially once you got to high school, you were like done with me. I don't need you. I don't want you. I want your credit card. I want the keys to your car. And I want you to shut up and just not bother me. And so I started to comply. And I wanted something different, but I just didn't know how to do anything different or reach you without you being so annoyed or angry with me.

All the time, it's true. It was all because I looked up to you and wanted to be you. And I think that that was like the same thing with Kendall too. It was like, I just wanted to be her. And I didn't know how to communicate that. And so instead of being like, I'm so proud of you. I want to learn from you. I want to go in the same direction or I don't know what I want to do, but I think what you're

doing is so cool. Instead, I was just like, I can never do that. And so therefore, I'm going to punish them. I think that's such a relatable experience. I am so grateful that we're having this conversation, Zoe, and I'm grateful that you're together with us, because I know that this conversation is going to improve your relationships, and you're going to feel so much better if you truly take to heart everything that we're sharing, and I cannot wait

to see who you share this conversation with. with. So, Soi, we're discussing the process of using the let them theory with one another over the course of the last year and how it has truly healed and improved our relationship. And so let's fast forward to the part of the story where you go through college and you're out working for this massive cybersecurity firm. You're in your early 20s. You're getting promoted. You have all this stuff. You're saving money. And you decide that you're going to take this trip and backpack solo around Asia, something you've wanted to do since you were a little girl, you go realize this dream, and then what happens?

Nicole So I quit my job and I go to Asia for four months and backpack solo for four months and backpack solo to seven different countries. And it was so amazing. I was on such a high. I came back from my trip. I immediately wanted to go back, but I had no money. And it was the middle of winter up in Vermont. I have moved back home, living with my parents at 25. So this is a year ago, almost to the day. A year ago, almost to the day. And I... What were you thinking about the fact that you're moving in with me and dad?

I thought it was temporary. And so... I hope it is. I love you, but I hope it is. Well, I'm still living here for everyone. But I thought it was temporary. And so I thought this is going to be a great refresh. I'm going to move to New York.

I'm going to get a job within like three weeks of getting back. Like this will be totally fine. And then I get back and I just crumble with everything. I am crying every day. I have no idea how to process my emotions after I just completed like the biggest goal I've ever had in my life. And it's over and what am I gonna do now? And I can't go back into the corporate world, but I will never work for my mother.

And mom approaches me and ever so slyly, she says, hey, Soy, you need money, clearly, and I need a little bit of help. How about you work on for the entire next week a little research project that I call the LetThem Theory. And I will pay you however much, I think it was like 50 bucks. No, it was like, I was gonna pay a professional researcher, like $40 an hour, because the let them theory, I had stumbled upon it many months ago. I had shared it online, it had gone crazy viral.

We had done one podcast episode about it. And that podcast episode became the sixth most shared episode on all of Apple podcasts of the year. And so when something goes that crazy, I'm like, I need to dig in deeper and I need to understand why is this resonating? Why are people getting tattoos that say, let them? Before I commit to writing a book about this thing, let's dig into the research and see what all of you are telling us the power of the let them theory is. And so I was going to hire somebody to do it. And so I thought, because I was very clear, you don't want to work with work for me.

You've always said, I don't want to work for you. I don't want to work for you, which I respect. You want to have your own path in life. Absolutely agree with that. Absolutely follow your own path. But I was like, okay, we both have a problem. Let's see if we can solve it together. And so you took on this project, 40 bucks an hour, I think it was, to do a quick research project for two weeks, where I gave you the thing that had gone viral initially, like a 60 second thing, and I gave her the podcast episode, and said, I want you to dig into the comments.

And I expected you to come back within two weeks and kind of give me a couple pages of analysis, but that's not what happened. Within 27 hours, Sawyer produced a, like, I don't know, 36-page document that was a active Excel table with color-coded drop-down menus and source links, including not only the 36 pages of citation and analysis and color coding and drop down menus, but a two page synopsis, which also included

the fact that she said, Mom, you can't write this book. Because what I'm seeing in the comments is 90% of it's amazing, but 10% of people are saying, I'm saying let them and I'm really lonely. I'm saying let them and I see that my friends don't call me back. I'm saying let them and I see I'm the one in my family that makes all the effort. We cannot do a book about something that makes people lonely. There has to be a second part. Now meanwhile, as she's saying this to me, I'm holding this very thick packet of information that looks like some sort of marketing engineer has used AI to create and I'm looking at you and I'm thinking, oh my god, I think for

the first time in your life I actually understand the way your brain works. That you basically have a supercomputer between those bright blue eyes and those beautiful like ears and smile that is crunching data all the time and if you don't have a monster of a project to aim it at you aim it at yourself And it made me want to cry because I understood immediately why you're so hard on yourself and why you're always in your head. And then the second reaction that I had was, holy shit, I got to figure out how she can work for me because this kid is a genius. I've never seen anybody do research like this before. I've never seen something organized like this before. The analysis was spot on and I will tell you point blank that the reason

why the let them theory has two steps. Step one being say let, and let them is where you detach from controlling another person and you let them be who they are. And step two is 1000% because of Sawyer. And step two is let me. And that's where you say, let me, and you direct yourself to the truth, which is the only thing that you can control in any relationship or your life or your career is you. Your response, what you think, what you say, what you do, how you process your emotions. That's where you get to take responsibility for your life.

That's where all the control and power comes because when you say, let me, you're reminding yourself that it's both your responsibility to figure out what you want to do. And let's talk about the word responsibility. Responsibility just means the ability to respond. And in our case, one of the things that has been absolutely unbelievable around the let them theory is that it's not only stopped you and me from trying to control the other person, but in saying, let them, let them, let them to each other. I say, let them when Sawyer seems intense.

I say, let them when Sawyer seems pissed off at me. I say, let them when Sawyer kind of has that crossed-armed vibe. And then I say, let me, let me decide how I'm gonna show up right now. And there are moments where I choose to step toward you and to try to make sure you know that I'm here. And then there are moments where I say, let me just give her space.

Instead of micromanaging her and thinking something's wrong, let me just respect her as a 25 year old human being who is allowed to have experiences in life that may be challenging and I don't need to step in and mother her. I don't need to step in and smother her. I can just let her, let her be intense about work right now

because there's a lot going on. And so long and the short of it is, you agreed to step on and help me write the Letham Theory book. I still can't believe it. Why can't you believe it? I am not a writer. Like I am not. I beg to differ, but go ahead.

And I just remember you saying, Sawyer, I think we need to write this book together. And after loving the research project, I signed up and said, okay, but not full-time. I will be on the side and I will be a contractor. And then I was still resistance. This is actually really important, because I got to give you massive props for boundaries. So notice what she's doing. Because here's the thing, in any relationship when

things start to shift, it doesn't shift like that. These dynamics between you and the people in your life, whether it's your mother or your father or your sister or your brother, and the people in your life, whether it's your mother or your father or your sister or your brother, or maybe it's your adult kids. These dynamics have been in place for a very long time. You both have stories about each other. And you gotta be willing to first of all go, well, what do I actually want?

I know what I have, what do I actually want? And the thing is before the let them theory book and before the tools of Let Them and Let Me, we had a lot of fun together. We could get drunk and hang out and party. We can go out to dinner. We can go on mother-daughter trips with everybody else and post all the photos. But underneath all the veneer, there is that sense of I'm not a priority and this b**** doesn't understand me because she's always working and I got to do it on my own and dad's the one that's there for me not her and I had this sense of no matter what I do

Sawyer's never going to warm up to me. I know she loves me but she is intentional about needing to separate and not let me in and I can feel. Like you can feel it when somebody in your life is like arms crossed, swords up, I'll let you in when I feel like it, or I've had a couple tequilas. Like it's just, there's people in your life like that. And you may have good reason to have those boundaries up because they've hurt you

and because they're not predictable. And the more that I was working on myself and the more you started working on yourself and the more we both knew we just wanted to be closer without the bullshit between us, that's where the opening happens. But first you got to decide, I want to change the story here that I'm telling myself

for the sake of experiencing something different. And at this point, I was not in the mindset, I'm doing this to improve my relationship with my mom. Like, that is not what I was going into this. It was, I need some mula and she's got it. So, I just want to put that out there that this was not an intentional self-discovery, I need to improve my relationship with my mother. This was how my mom marketed it was, this is a launching pad.

And I said, great. It sounds- For? For New York. Yes. And for your next gig. And you can learn as much as you want. You can stay for as long as you want.

There is no guardrails, but I really need some help with this project. So for however long you wish, it's up to you and we can get started. And I had said, okay, fine, but I'm never going to be full time. And let them. And I think it's so hilarious because growing up every single week, I think, mom would say once a week, I just can't wait to have a family business. I wanted so desperately for you guys to be part of a family business, because I saw how that kept my mom's family in close proximity in upstate New York and I just figured the world is so busy how cool would it be to all have work to keep us together and since the work is digital and interesting and media there's lots of different things you could do so I

always saw it as why would I want someone else to run this business? Why wouldn't I want one of you to run this business? And what a better way to be able to be together than to work together. And I will say the experience of seeing you as a colleague has been an extraordinary gift because I get to see how your mind works. I get to see you in meetings with Audible and Hay House and the PR teams and the Today Show and it's just incredible to get to see a completely different dimension of who you are. And I think if you've got a kid or a sibling or a parent that is an athlete or they're

an artist or they do something where you can see this side of them, you know what I'm talking about. But for those of us that don't perform, like who knew your skill was a supercomputer brain that can do digital marketing and project management and be a business lead. Like that doesn't come out when you're little. And I probably would never have seen it in you, but for the fact that we had this experience of writing the book together. And I'm saying this because I love thinking you don't know the people you think you know. That there's a whole different side of the person that you love that you've never even experienced

before. Whether it's artistic talent or a knack for writing poetry or they're an incredible sense of direction out in the woods and they can guide you anywhere, that the stories that we tell ourselves about the people that we know the best trap us in a relationship with that version of the person. And it limits your ability to experience someone in a new light. It's one of the reasons why so many of us love our friends so much more than our family. Because our friends come in and out of our lives and experience us out in the world, and our family almost never does.

Our family still experiences us as we were inside that family system as the golden child or the troublemaker or the one that's this, and you start to resent the fact that people don't see you for your full self. And that's what this experience this past year has done with my relationship with you. And it's also why the let them theory and saying let them and saying let me is a game changer in your relationships. Because when you start to say let them,

especially with family, it creates the space for you to accept someone as they are and perhaps start seeing them for who they are for the very first time. Instead of judging or wishing or managing or worrying, when you say let them, you do what everybody wants, which is you truly learn how to accept somebody instead of trying to control them. And then when you say let me, you're now cueing yourself and reminding yourself that you get to choose how you show up with

this person in your life. What energy you bring. What sort of questions you ask. And when you start to focus on the energy that you bring and how you show up with the people that you think you know best, that's what creates the ripple effect that creates change. When we started working together, I finally understood everything that you do and everything that you have gone through in the past 25 years that I've been alive. And I just had such an overwhelming appreciation and compassion for everything that you do on a daily basis and how much stress and overload, which I

am now experiencing, you experience. And it's- Running a business this size. Yes. No one knows how big this business is. It is insane. And like, I genuinely don't think Kendall Oakley or dad will ever know how much you go through.

And I would never know how much you go through. And every thing, everyone that is relying on you and needing your attention and needing things from you. And I think that that also really helped me basically look through your frame of reference and your lens. And I think it just allowed me to have so much more compassion for you and so much more understanding and just appreciation. And once I saw like the internal side of the business and truly put myself in your shoes, I think it's only then that I was like, I need to show up

differently and I want to cheer for her. I don't want to boo her. And now I understand. It's such an important point. And this brings me to kind of a takeaway for you listening. And it's, if you wanna change the narrative or the story or the dynamic with somebody that you care about, especially if you've known them for a long time,

you have to truly want to step into their shoes. And we talk about this tool called frame of reference that I learned from my friend Lisa Bilio at length and how you use it with the let them theory. But I'm going to give you a couple quick examples because this is really important. I recently heard somebody say to me, you know, I don't understand why my kids are upset by who we voted for in the election. And what I said to them is,

I don't think you're asking the right question. Because you just said to me, I don't understand why they're upset with me. Maybe the question needs to be, I need to step into their shoes to try to understand why they might be upset with me. See, I think we stand on our side of the line why they might be upset with me. See, I think we stand on our side of the line and we look at somebody else and we judge them and say,

well, I don't understand why they're like this. Have you ever stopped and asked yourself, I wonder what it was like for my mom? I wonder what it was like for my mom? I wonder what it was like for my sister? I wonder what it was like for my little brother? We're so consumed with our experience that we start to build a narrative around it, but we never actually even want to step in and consider. And I remember my relationship with my mom

shifted immediately the second I stopped to ask myself, I wonder what it was like for my mom to be 19 years old in the middle of Kansas City, married to my dad who was starting medical school, and here she has a newborn and she's working nights at the IRS. Her family is halfway across the country. It's just her and my dad who's starting medical school. She's a brand new mom. She's just got her friend. I wonder what that was like.

And when you stop and step in someone else's shoes, what you realize is most people are not monsters. Most people are doing the best that they can with the resources and the life experience that they have. In the words of Dr. Ablon, people do well when they can. And we tend to judge from our point of view, and then we sit there and cross our arms and go,

I don't understand why my mom's so upset with me. I don't understand why my sister's so selfish. I don't understand why. Well, have you stopped and asked yourself, I wonder what it must be like to be that person. If I assume good intent, I wonder what that must be like. Because there's a difference between wishing someone would understand you and actually taking the time and being interested in understanding why they might think the way that they think.

And when you're in a relationship with somebody, a sibling, a parent, an adult child, where you have got so much baggage built up, like you are literally pulling up to any conversation on the phone, any text message, any anything, I want you to imagine you have a frickin' U-Haul next to you. You got everything that's ever happened, all the death by a thousand cuts, you're both kind of locked in this. It just takes one person to change the dynamic. But here's the thing. If you're the one that goes to therapy, if you're the one that listens to the podcast episodes, if you're the one that reads the LetThem Theory book, if you're the one that goes to therapy, if you're the one that listens to the podcast episodes, if you're the one that reads the Let Them Theory book,

if you're the one that starts to calm yourself down and act like a more mature adult in the relationship, more loving person, if you're the one that's using the tools and you're saying, I wonder what it was like when my mom was such and such, or I wonder what it must have been like for my little sister, or I wonder what it was like for my dad was such and such, or I wonder what it must have been like for my little sister, or I wonder what it was like for my dad, and you step into their shoes,

do not expect the other person to do the same thing. Because expecting someone else to meet you at the same level that you are now trying to learn about and meet yourself and go through life, they cannot do that unless they've done the work. And what we write about extensively in the Let Them Theory book, in fact, the book is divided into eight sections,

and one of the sections is all about how our attempts to make other people change and our expectations that they should keeps the dynamic stuck. And so the hardest part about all of this is that yes, you can change the dynamic, no question. Absolutely. And all you need is you.

You do not need the other person's participation because your behavior and your emotional maturity is so powerful that it influences the dynamic. And if you're lucky over time, it changes the dynamic. And I want you to think about it this way. Let's say you have a really antagonistic relationship with somebody. Every time you get on the phone or you see each other,

it's like you both pull up in your U-Haul trailers with all the baggage. You both hope it goes better, but the relationship is a lot like a tug of war. You each pick up the rope, you hook it to the U-Haul, and now you're pulling each other with all the baggage and the weight. The fastest way to win the tug of war

is to actually just drop the rope. Don't play. Let them. Let them tug. Don't tug back. And what's going to happen is the person's going to tantrum. The person's going to say flippin' things. Oh, is this what you learned in there? Is this therapy speak that you're using on me now? Let them say it. I don't know mom, just tired of the tension. Really would love to have a better relationship with you so I'm trying. Oh, let them. Because they don't know how to operate in the new dynamic yet. They're still committed to the baggage and the story. They don't know anything different. And now that you're showing up different,

you're calmer, you're not pulling on the rope, you're not stabbing back, you're just showing up. You're clear that you want to shift the dynamic. Every time they say something that would normally agitate the hell out of you, just say, let them. And let me remind myself that even when they act like an eight-year-old, I'm not their parent and it's not my job to manage us. So let them.

And when you stay in your power and you continue to do it over and over and over, the person in your life reveals how much they can meet you at this level. And you might be surprised. You know, there are people in my life that I've had antagonistic relationships with, and now that I have the let them theory, and I show up very differently, and I'm calmer, and I'm more compassionate,

and I'm more understanding, and I walk away. The second I sniff any kind of stress or antagonism coming, I just remove myself from the conversation, the dynamic's different. As I step into someone else's shoes and I go, I wonder what it must be like to be. And I really play out the story in my mind from the other person's point of view. You know, the sibling that didn't get married, the sibling that can't get it together. Wonder what it must be like to be the one that

mom and dad is supporting. That can't feel that great. Huh. You know, wow, I could be a little bit more compassionate here. Maybe it's not worth my time and energy to actually get bothered by this. Maybe I should just bathe myself in feeling sorry for somebody and a little bit more compassionate that this is what their life is like. And just let them. And let me say, let me remind myself that I'm really proud of where I'm at. And I'm proud that I'm the emotionally mature person. And what you're going to notice is it takes time. Because as you said, Sawyer, and I thought it was a beautiful thing to share, that when you were angry, you got my attention. And a lot of people in your life are angry, And a lot of people in your life are angry or they're in breakdown or they treat you in passive aggressive ways because it gets your attention.

And what does that tell you? It tells you all they ever wanted was your attention. And maybe you can be the one that can close this distance because you start giving them the attention in an entirely new way. And when somebody starts to feel tended to and they start to feel like they have a little bit more of your attention, it's kind of shocking how people change.

Now, it doesn't always happen. And that's something that's important to say. Because let them doesn't change things, it creates the space for things to change. And that's why this is so powerful. I loved the visual of the Tug of War because immediately what I thought was if you put me and you on either side of the tug of war because immediately what I thought was if you put me and you on either side of the tug of rope, every single time that I was mad at you, I was tugging. And every single time you would basically hold on tight and tug closer to me because you just wanted to save me and do all this and do all that.

Whenever we fight, whenever we used to argue in the past, it would be both of us tug of warring. And I think with the let them theory, which you started implementing with me and our family way before I even knew it, I think what ended up happening is I would start to tug and you would drop the rope and I would fall down, which happens every single time. And it's not falling down in the sense of I'm less than or screw her. It's more so, oh, she's just not playing this game anymore. And I think that's what's so beautiful, what is so beautiful about the Lethan Theory is you actually can't play the game of tug of war when one person isn't playing. It takes two.

And none of us want to see that we are a participant in a dynamic. And that's why it takes one person to change not only the dynamic with anyone in your life, but it takes one person to change an entire family system. And, you know, as much as you can change the dynamic with anybody, and you can improve any relationship because you can shift how you show up, you have to always remember something. There is one thing you will never be able to up, you have to always remember something. There is one thing you will never be able to change and that's another person.

People only change when they feel like changing and when the conditions for changing are present. And that's important because if somebody doesn't want to change or they can't change due to some condition in their life right now, they're not going to change. And there's too many relationships where you're wishing someone would change

and you're working against the fundamentals of human wiring, which is people have to feel that they are in control of their own lives. That's why they're tugging on the rope. They want your attention. They wanna win. They wanna be right, so they tug on the rope. When you say let them and you don't play that game,

you just shifted the dynamic. And as things shift and it impacts someone else, now they have to question, huh, if what I used to do doesn't work, maybe I should try something else. And that means you're triggering the truth about human beings, which is they only change when they feel like it. And if you're changing the dynamic, and what has always happened and all the baggage is no longer relevant, because you're not arguing over the same old crap anymore, then all of a sudden there's a lot less to argue about.

And that's what creates this space that makes someone else actually want to change. Because most people are actually seeking your intention. They're seeking to feel important and seen, and they've just been going about it in very negative ways or in subconscious patterns that just don't work anymore. You know, as you're listening to me and so I share all this and everything that we've learned the hard way, I really can't wait to see what you do with this conversation. And I can't wait to hear from you and to hear how it's improved your life, your relationships, how it's helped to disappear this distance that we're talking about.

And I just am excited for you to share this with someone that you care about. So, you know, in the process, Soy, of you and I really learning how to use the let them theory to create more space for our relationship to change. It's really been extraordinary to get to know you in a totally different way. And I think that's one of the most exciting things about talking about this today with you as you're listening to us, is that you have no idea what's possible

in your relationships. You only know the way it's been. But I see a bigger possibility for you. There's no doubt in my mind that people in your life can change. Don't you agree, Soy? Yes, 100%. So we start writing the book together. And geez. What do you mean, and geez?

Geez oh geez. It was not a breeze. Oh my God, no. We? Mom. Yes. This was... a breeze. Oh my God, no. We, mom. Yes. This was horrible. I genuinely think if the topic of the book was not letting other people be themselves, live their lives in order for you to live your best life and for

you to finally be yourself, I would not be sitting here today. How come? Because this book writing process brought us closer, but also was, whew, weird. It was hard. It was really hard. You know, the let them theory and saying let them and then saying let me as a way to diffuse tension and frustration and stress in your relationships, it doesn't make anything easy. It makes it happen. As we are writing this book together, and just imagine the craziness

of this. We have a mother-daughter relationship, a daughter who does not want to work for her mother, a mom who is stressed out and running this massive business, dying to be closer to you. We now have this project that we're working on only because you need money. And it just so happens that the project heals our relationship. Because the tool that we're writing about is a tool that brings you closer to other people by letting go of controlling them. And it forces you to let other people be themselves, which makes you see them for the first time. And so I said, let them, let them, let them with you probably five times a day. I think I said it 25 times a day. And let me just paint the picture for you guys.

So we are living together. Which is, I would not recommend. Do not recommend. Do a project virtually or something. But we are living together. So every single day for the entire last year, this is how it would go. We'd wake up, hey mom, hey Soy, how are you? Oh my gosh, you sleep well?

Yeah, sleep well. Okay. Then we go to exercise together. No boundaries. Then we eat breakfast together. Hey, mom! Hey, Soy! How are you? Oh my gosh, you sleep well? Yeah, sleep well. Okay, then we go to exercise together. No boundaries. Then we eat breakfast together. One of us is making the same smoothie for the both of us. Then we're in such a positive mood. We go up to the office, we sit down, and then all of a sudden, our personalities come out. Mom, her brain is the most beautiful, creative, absolute disaster tornado I've ever worked

with in my entire life. She cannot make a decision. She is all over the place and you cannot contain her in structure. She wants to creative write for, I don't even know how you got your other two books done, to be completely honest. Me either. But she would love to creative write every single day for the rest of time. She wants no boundaries, no structure. She pretty much writes the same thing 20 times in a row and it sucks.

And then I come in and all I want to do is what is the organization? What is the structure? Give me the table of contents. Give me the outline. And I would literally set up outlines for her, write this sentence here, write this, this here, write this. And the amount, you should see our Google Drive. It is like 5,000 different documents

because it is me creating structure, Mel not writing, mom not writing in it, and then her creating a whole separate document where she chooses to write everything. And then coming back to me and then we come back together, it was both of our brains do not work well together. And so the entire time I was trying to control her and she was trying to basically run away from me. And so every single day it would start

off with us just saying, let them every single time. I really had to let go of my need to put this into a structure and come up with the main points and summarize it and just work in order of chapters. Meanwhile, we are all over the place and creative writing and we're doing this and then we're scrapping this. We literally went through 11 manuscripts. And when I say 11 manuscripts, it's not a sentence change. It is a scrap the entire thing and rewrite from page zero, the entire manuscript, 11 of them in the last year. All of which I said, I think we're good here. I think we can- Not good enough.

And it was not good enough. I agree. Let them. But I literally had to say let them every single time. And so that's about 12, 12 PM when we start getting hangry and annoyed. And then we eat because we both notice that we're starting to get snippy and on edge with each other. And then comes the afternoon where it can go one of two ways. Mostly one way, which is blow up fight, crying, you don't listen to me, you

don't do this, you don't do that. And then it's a total relationship, like therapy session between the two of us where we end up crying and hugging and then getting back to work. And then if it was a good day, we have a glass of wine. If it was a bad day, we have a glass of wine. And then we go to bed. And then we literally every single day, Monday through Sunday, that was our routine. And then in between that producing all these podcast episodes and giving speeches and everything, it was a lot.

It was too much. But the bigger takeaway is this, because I don't want you to be discouraged from ever working in a family business. And I don't want you to think that all of the tension and fighting was for naught because the bottom line is writing a book is a colossal undertaking. Typically, you would do it in two years. We produce this one in eight months. That is insane in terms of the timeline. And the only

reason why it got done it was because of you. And when you're not only dealing with somebody that you have a story about, and you want to have a better relationship with, but you also have very different working styles and thinking styles, using the let them theory is a lifesaver. Because every time I would say let them, because Sawyer was yelling at me that I was rewriting a chapter and I wasn't following the outline, because Sawyer was yelling at me that I was rewriting a chapter and I wasn't following the outline and why even bother doing an outline if you're not even gonna follow it.

Every time I said, let them, what happened is I recognized the genius in your brain, because this is how you think. You know, in life, there are what I call box jumpers and box steppers. So if you imagine a path, every step, A, B, C, D, E, the path leaves from point A to point Z. You are the kind of person, Sawyer, that you don't need to see point Z. You know exactly what A to B to B to C to C to D.

You are a genius. You are a box stepper. You can take any process. You can organize a structure around it. Like my brain cannot do that. It can't. Your dad is the same way. I am a different type of thinker. I am what you call a box jumper. And it is my genius to stand at point A

and see all the way down the line and go, And it is my genius to stand at point A and see all the way down the line and go, oh, we're going to W. Now I have no idea how to create a map to get there, but I know we're gonna get there. And here's the problem with most of our relationships. I want Sawyer to be a box jumper. I want her to think like me.

I want her to be like me. And that's why I feel frustrated and tensed and like anger and resentment because you're not like me and you don't think like me. Meanwhile, Sawyer just wishes I was a box stepper that I could go from A to B and then B to C and she doesn't understand why my brain doesn't work the way that her brain works. And I think most of us build up this invisible distance with one another because we've never learned how to say, let them. And when you say, let them, and you let somebody freak out

because their brain works differently or because their expectations weren't met. Like I think a lot about, especially around the holidays or big celebrations. Of course your family is bummed you're not coming. They love you. Shouldn't they be upset? Shouldn't they be disappointed? I mean what's the alternative? I'm glad you're not coming because I hate you anyway. Instead of saying oh well what does it actually mean if someone's disappointed? It just means they love me and they just wish I were there. It doesn't mean I have to change my plans because two things can be true at once. Someone can be disappointed in me and still love

me and I can be kind of sad that this year I'm going to my in-laws and I'm going to miss out, but those can both be true. And what can also be true is my daughter and I can be very different thinkers and we can be wired very differently. And through understanding and acceptance, there's room for both of us. And it's in that space where Sawyer can be frustrated because I'm yet again as an artist. I'm just an artist, that's what I am. I blow something up because I know that this isn't gonna take us to W.

And I can't explain to her how we're gonna get to W, but I know her genius will get us there. If I can create space for your experience to be sad or emotional or mad and just let them and then I say well let me, let me be honest with myself about what I know to be true and let me hold space for you to be upset. Same thing's true with you. Okay let them, here goes mom again, the crazy insane artist, let her And let me remind myself as the project manager on this, if this doesn't hit the deadline, not my fault, it's hers.

So let her blow it up, because her name on the cover, let her do it. Because she's gonna have to reap the consequences of it. And it was not easy. And that's the thing about the let them theory as a tool. It's a tool that you are going to use every day in every relationship. I literally say it every day in my marriage.

I say it every day with Sawyer because little things piss you off. Little things make you roll your eyes. But instead of letting those little things become the invisible cuts that create the distance that makes your relationships slowly die and resentment take over. When you say let them, you just let them go and it doesn't build up. And you learn how to love the person as they

are instead of constantly wishing they were just like you because they're never gonna be. I think that also using the let them theory in this book writing process made this book so much better because you let me write from a 20s perspective and I let you even though I can't relate from a 50s perspective. And so I feel like this book has so much relatable stories and so it reaches so many different age groups mine yours everyone's in between That it actually brought the fun finishing product. Oh my god incredible be so much better and I think that that like just having both of our writing styles

Woven in throughout of it. Mm-hmm is really amazing Well, if we hadn't had let them we probably would have thrown this project out the window and said styles woven in throughout of it is really amazing. Well, if we hadn't had LetThem, we probably would have thrown this project out the window and said, let's not bother. And you would have quit and moved to New York and said, see, I told you. But it was the tool of saying, let them, and then saying, let me, that created the space for us to work together on a project and have very different styles and also very different experiences. Because this is my ninth book.

We've done six audio books for Audible. We did the five second rule and the high five habit. So I've been through this rodeo, you haven't. And so it's also this experience of bringing someone into a project who is learning in the seat, doing a remarkable job, but also all the stress and anxiety that comes from never having done it before. 100%. And I think that also you, I noticed that you had done let them a lot with me when I was freaking out about things that you didn't think were a big deal and vice versa.

And I want to say two things. I want to say one piece of advice of another way that you can use let them and let me and I want to say one warning that I experienced during this process. So the first is them and let me, and I want to say one warning that I experienced during this process. So the first is that what I love about the let them theory is that you can vocalize it. And so I feel like in a lot of our conversations at the end of the day, mom, you would, I would say to you, I am trying to let you have your process and I'm trying to let you creatively write about this topic.

And at the same time, I need you to let me create these briefs and create this, this, because this is how I think and otherwise I don't understand what you're doing. And so I feel like it's a tool for you to approach a conversation as well as saying it to yourself. Whereas you can go up to your loved one or whoever you are hoping to communicate better with or build your relationship stronger and say, I am trying to let you do X. And at the same time, I need you to let me do X. So that is a genius takeaway. And let me tell you why. Just to add to this, because it's way bigger than working on a

project with somebody that thinks differently. There are going to be times in any relationship, whether it's with a sibling or a parent or an adult child or the person that you're in a relationship with, where you don't like what they're about to go do. You're worried about it. You think it's a dumb thing. Like for example, let's say you have somebody in your life who's planning on quitting a great job

to go start a business. They wanna follow their dreams, right? Of course you're worried about it. Most businesses fail. Of course you have concerns about whether or not it's gonna be successful and whether or not this is the right time. But in life, you have concerns about whether or not it's gonna be successful and whether or not this is the right time. But in life, you have to let them.

You have to let them live their lives. You've got to let them follow their path. You have to let them try things and fail. So you can say to someone in your life that is about to change their major or quit their job or date somebody that you're like red flags, red flags, red flags, which we all know nobody listens to anyway when you try to warn people. So you got to let them. But it is 1000% effective for you to go and you need to let me do what I need to do in this regard.

So you need to let me create a budget. If you're going to go quit your job and launch a business, you need to let me create a spreadsheet that shows you exactly how much money we have before we run out, which then allows me to manage what I'm worried about without trying to control you to manage what I'm worried about. Do you see what I'm saying?

And so the second that you said to me, because I kept going, I don't need a table of contents, I don't need this, just let me write. And you'll be like, Mom, I'm gonna let you do your thing. But you have to let me organize myself in a way that makes me feel comfortable when I get on the phone with the publisher. Because I need to organize myself and I realize I'm responsible for that. And you also started to realize controlling you isn't going to actually give you power. And then the warning that I will say is I found myself throughout the process whenever you and I would get into it a little bit, that I

would always let them and I would always use that tool, but I rarely followed up with let me and let me explain. So you would say I need to do it this way, I need this from you, I need this blah blah blah blah blah xyz and My initial response I would tell myself let them do not react Do not play into it do not try to be right and as a result my Response was always silence And I would always just let you go and let you do your process and I would sit back and feel very sad and emotional and left out and felt like you weren't listening to me.

And as a result, my emotions would bubble up and bubble up and then I would explode. And I think what was really crucial and that I really noticed is that whenever I use let them with you, I always had to follow up with let me, which is don't react, but collect my emotions, take a breath, say let them, let mom, let her do her process. Instead, let me communicate how this makes me feel or communicate how her not using the organization or the this or disregarding the month's worth of work that I've done and creating something brand new is making me feel.

Well, and I wanna broaden this out because we really in the course of writing the book about the Lethal Theory and how stressful it was, use these tools all day long. And so this applies in every relationship because if all you do is say, let them, and even if it's like the example of you go home and your mom is like, I don't know,

I get all stressed out when people are coming over and gotta clean the house and got it. And anybody that tries to help, I'm bristly. And if all the family does is say, let them, let her get all worked up, let her micromanage and nobody then says to themselves, I gotta say, let me, mom, when you get like this, it's not fun for anybody. Let me help you.

What that does is it breaks up the dynamic where there's invisible distance. Because your silence when somebody's behavior is making you upset, it actually creates distance. Because when you stay silent, you take a step away from somebody. And when you remind yourself by saying, let me, you now prompt yourself to say something. And every time you say something, not so that you control the other person, not so that you change what's happening, but so that you say how you're feeling or how somebody's behavior is impacting you, you actually take a step closer to somebody. And it's in hearing how my behavior was impacting you

that would have me stop in my tracks and change how I was operating because I didn't wanna make you feel that way. I was just all stressed out and worried about the book deadline. So of course I'm like doing what I think it's going to do. Same thing with getting ready for guests to come over. Everybody's running around like a lunatic because they're stressed out. And when we say, let them, let them, let them, we don't let somebody else's stress

impact us. But when we say, let me tell them how their behavior is impacting me, now I'm taking a step closer and seeking connection instead of creating more distance. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. And what's so beautiful about the let them theory is the fact that it's a gift to someone else as well. How so?

I think that like all I want is for people to use the let them theory on me. I want people to say, let Sawyer do her thing. I want people to say, let Sawyer be who she is. I want you to say, let Sawyer want to organize and have her OCD and let me be who I am without trying to control me. And so I think that our relationship improved because we both were using let them on each other. And so I think that the let them theory improves relationships because it's not only when you start

using it, the first step in proving and breaking this toxic dynamic, but I think it's such a great gift to share with other people and to share with your loved ones because when they start using it on you, you're going to be like, hallelujah, hallelujah, girl. Keep using it. It's so amazing and it's great. I love it. I do too.

I do too. It creates room for more love when you say it. And so I wanna just make sure that you're leaving, not only seeing yourself in a dynamic with a sister or a parent or an adult child or somebody that you love where this sort of invisible distance and weirdness. I wanna make sure that you really kind of get some of the key takeaways. And the first one is we all have a story

about the other person. And until first one is, we all have a story about the other person. And until you recognize that you have a story about the other person and Sawyer's story was what about me? I think my story about you was that you don't care about me and that you only care about work and my siblings and. Oh, God, I still hate hearing it even though I know it's not... It's not my current story. What's your current story?

I think my current story is that you've gone above and beyond and worked your ass off your entire life to provide for us and to show up for us and to love us in so many ways and provide and like just be the best role model in the world. And I think you're the best mom ever. And my story was that you're always mad at me and I've done something wrong and that you don't need me and that you don't want me unless I'm paying for something or you have an emergency. And that is not my story. My story now is that I get to see you every day and work with you and I have just crazy admiration for the way that you think and your work ethic and as your

mother I'm just worried. I want you to have a little fun, that's all. But I gotta let them, let them. Book launch is almost over. Book launch, then I'll have some fun. That's tool number one, recognize the story you're telling and then ask yourself, what is the story I want? And if there is this invisible distance

or this weird friction, what do you want? And it might just be, I'd just like to be a little closer. I'd like to have more fun again. I'd like to stop arguing about stupid stuff. I'd like us to both come out of our corners and uncross our arms and just realize we're on the same side. And that brings me to the next thing, which is it's very helpful to stop and ask yourself, I wonder what it's like.

I wonder what it's like to be the oldest in a family of three where mom's always working and dad's business failed and mom's always gone and she's always stressed out. Like, I wonder what that's like. And to have a younger sister that's on a stage and that is this and that, I wonder what that's like. And to have a younger sister that's on a stage and that is this and that, I wonder what it's like to feel the weight of responsibility and to feel like you're not seen or that things are never good enough.

And when you stop and go, I wonder what it's like. And you put yourself in their shoes for the sake of truly wanting to understand what their story might be. It allows you to lower your sword and uncross your arms and drop the rope and really come from more of a place of a little bit of compassion. And then you're going to use the let them theory and you're going to say, let them, whenever they're just being themselves, whenever the U-Haul arrives with all the baggage, you know, whenever the

old stuff comes up, whenever you feel the distance, the stress, the frustration, the whatever, let them. Because the more you let them be, the better your relationships are going to become and the more the dynamic shifts. And then you got to always remember to say, let me. Because that's where you remind yourself that what you feel and what you need and the actions you take really matter here. And the final piece of advice that I wanna give you

is that there's no doubt in my mind that the let them theory alone would have transformed our relationship. But it was accelerated in terms of the timeline in my mind that the let them theory alone would have transformed our relationship. But it was accelerated in terms of the timeline for transformation because we had a project to work on. And this is a really important thing to consider. I bet you've had experience in your life where something happened, maybe somebody got really

sick in your family and everybody drops everything and runs into help. And suddenly the baggage isn't there because there is something other than the history that everybody's organized around that made you be on the same side. And so I want you to consider, is there some kind of project that you could think up that could help you erase some of this distance? Could you ask for help? Maybe there's a back bedroom you need to move out and you want to set up an office and one of your siblings or your mom or one of your adult kids is fantastic at kind of interior design and Pinterest boards. What if you ask them for a little bit of help? It's a project that you could organize yourselves around

where you're on the same side. And this kind of thing isn't just what Sawyer and I experienced. I dug into the research because I was really curious about this. Turns out that there was a study done. In fact, two of them that I want to share with you because I think you'll find it empowering.

The National Institute of Health wrote about how when people have to solve a problem together, we had to write a book. Maybe your problem is you have a kid that's been diagnosed with dyslexia and you don't know what to do, but your sister's really good at this stuff. Or maybe you're going through a breakup and you don't know what to do, but your sister's really good at this stuff. Or maybe you're going through a breakup and you need help

and your mom's not that great until you actually need consoling. And so when you have a project that you can work on, a problem that you're going to solve together, number one, it creates this common goal, which is going to give you and this person in your life a shared purpose. It's gonna allow the two of you to collaborate. And the other thing that it does is it creates mutual reliance.

In any relationship where there's this invisible distance, you're not relying on each other. You're actually resentful and antagonistic of one another. When you come up with something cool, whether it's a project or a little trip you can take together, or something cool you could do together or something, it's going to help you create a stronger bond because it gets the focus off the dynamic and onto the project or the problem you're solving or the trip you're going to take,

something that creates this sense that you actually belong together. And I'm gonna share one more thing. Do you know, they actually did a study, this is out of the University of Texas, where hurricanes, they did this after Hurricane Harvey, and I'm not suggesting that hurricanes don't come with problems, but when a family or a couple

goes through a natural disaster together, there's a massive jump in happiness after the hurricane goes through. Why? Because a natural disaster suddenly reminds you of what actually matters. And all those little things that have built up over time and that created all that distance suddenly doesn't. Because you've got bigger things you need to deal with and problem solve and work on together to get through it.

And that's what that book did for you and me. That's what you can create with anybody in your life and using these simple tools and of course the let them theory. You have a couple simple things that you can do that will help you close the distance and create a different connection with somebody that you deeply care about. And I really hope you do. Anything else you want to say, Soi?

The last thing I'm going to say is something I'm really excited about is that you and I not only are going to have this tool for the rest of our life, but we're going to use this tool for the rest of our life. And I am so confident it's going to continue with every use that our relationship will get better and better. And the fact that we have this book and this tool that I can give to my own kids to improve, I'm 25, I don't have kids, but eventually. Do you use it with your significant other. Yes. Every day.

Does he use it with you? I hope so, but he will be the first to be getting the book. So I'm very excited to gift it to him so he can use the let them theory on me. And I'm really excited too. Like that's the thing is that everybody thinks that this is about other people, it's actually about you. You want people to be saying let them. You want your whole family to know this. And I am so excited for this to be out in the world. I'm excited for you to learn to use it. I'm excited for you to drop the rope and stop like doing the tugging back and forth with people.

I'm excited for you to close the distance between you and people that you care about. And if they continue to be emotionally immature, you're going to have the let them theory by your side, because it does take time. I want to thank you for being here together with me and Sawyer. I'm so excited for the people in your life that you're going to share this with and that you're going to give the LetThemTheory book to. And I cannot wait to hear how you use it for you. So I just want to say, I love you so much. It is the greatest gift in the world to have had this experience together and to get to share work together and experience a whole different side of you that I would never have

if I was just your mom. I love you, mom. I love you, Mom. I love you, too. And I also wanted to be sure to say, in case no one else says it to you today, that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the let them theory is absolutely going to help you do that.

All righty. I'll be waiting for you the moment you hit play in the very next episode. I'll see waiting for you the moment you hit play in the very next episode. I'll see you there. Do we like the pony? What's the pony? In my head?

Oh. No? Let's let her run. Okay, I can tell now that we've worked together for almost a year. No, I actually like the pony sometimes. Okay. Hey, here we go. almost a year. No, I actually like the pony sometimes. Okay. Here we go. Oh, okay. Is that sound good, Yuna?

This is where you got to slay me, Sawyer. Honored. Okay. Oh, that's okay. Sorry, Oak. You've become me, Sawyer. I'm sorry. This is fantastic though. Holiday season do do do get your let them theory book tomorrow. Hey, hey, hey. was fire. Firecracker. Thank you. That was so good. Oh! It was fire! Firecracker! Thank you. That was so good. What did I say before? Yes, perfect.

I forgot. That was great. Okay, great. Oh my God. Very cute. I love you. I love you too. What a gift.

You are. Thank you. Mwah. Love you. Wow. Good job. That was so great. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper.

This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.