The Mel Robbins Podcast - Understanding This Will Change How You Experience Your Entire Life

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

Today’s episode is going to fundamentally change the way you think about spirituality — and what it truly means to live a deep and meaningful life. Mel sits down with Dr. Lisa Miller, the world��s leading expert on the neuroscientific benefits of spirituality. Her groundbreaking research proves that every human being is biologically hardwired for spirituality — even if, right now, it means nothing to you. Dr. Miller’s work shows that spiritual connection — however you define it — changes your brain for the better. It can protect you from depression, anxiety, addiction, hopelessness, and burnout, and it gives you powerful tools to get through the hardest times in your life. We are living in a moment where believing in something beyond yourself can feel impossible. You might be feeling uncertain, anxious, or even pessimistic about the future — but this conversation will open your mind to possibilities you may have never considered before. Dr. Miller will prove to you, using science, that when you awaken this innate part of your brain, you unlock resilience, clarity, connection, and a deep sense of purpose. You’ll learn: -The #1 thing that separates people who are resilient and hopeful from those who struggle -The enormous difference between spirituality and religion (and why that matters for your mental health) -How to unlock your brain’s “awakened” network — the key to creativity, intuition, and deep meaning -How to nurture spirituality in yourself and your kids (even if you don’t know where to start) -Why crises, heartbreak, and hardship can be portals to spiritual growth and personal transformation.Whether you’re deeply spiritual, skeptical, or somewhere in between, this episode will inspire you to see that spirituality isn’t just a “nice to have” — it’s an essential part of being human. If you’re feeling stuck, lost, hopeless, or like there must be something more to life, this conversation is coming to you at exactly the right moment. For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked this episode, you’ll love listening to this one next: How to Find Your Purpose & Design the Life You WantConnect with Mel:  Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel’s personal letter Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-freeDisclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad that you're here today, because today's conversation is going to fundamentally change the way that you think about spirituality and what it means at its core to live a deep and meaningful life. Our guest today is the world's leading expert on the neuroscientific benefits of spirituality. Her groundbreaking research has found that being spiritual, whatever that means to you, even if right now it means nothing, her research proves that being spiritual changes your brain for the better, and it can protect you from and help you overcome

hopelessness, depression, addiction, anxiety, and other mental health conditions. See, you and I are living at a time when believing in something beyond yourself can feel impossible. Right now more than ever, you may be feeling uncertain, afraid, anxious, and maybe even pessimistic about the future. I am so grateful to have the conversation today because it will raise the stakes on life.

It'll open your mind to possibilities that you may have never considered before, but after listening, you will know deep in your heart it is true. Because our guest today is going to prove to you, using science, that every single person on this planet is hardwired for spirituality. She will also explain the enormous difference between religion and spirituality. They're two different things. And that when you understand what spirituality is and how you are hardwired for it, and that when you awaken this particular part of your brain. You unlock something extraordinary within you.

You unlock resilience, clarity, connection to something deeper, and meaning. You tap into joy. And if you're already a spiritual person, today's conversation, it will make you go so much deeper. If you're not spiritual at all, you're very intellectual, I have a lot of people in my life like this, are like, eh, I don't know. Just trust me and listen.

Because you're going to find a way to start that is simple, easy, and makes spirituality and this innate wiring in you work for you. So if you're feeling lost or stuck or hopeless or empty or just like there must be something more. This episode has come to you at the exact moment that you need it. And I'm so glad you're here. Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited for the conversation that we are going to have today. I have been anticipating this one for months and I'm going to start by saying it's always

such an honor to spend time with you, to be together. I think today we are both going to feel honored that we got to share this experience together. And if you're a new listener, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm glad you're here and I know by the time you're done listening, you're going to be so glad you took the time to listen to this today. Because you made the time to listen

to this particular episode, here's what I know about you. You're the kind of person who values a meaningful life. You value connection. You wanna feel fulfilled in how you're living your life, and you're looking for inspiration on how you can do that, how you can bring more meaning into your day-to-day life.

And I also want to point out that if you're listening right now, because someone in your life shared this conversation with you, that is so beautiful, because it means that you have people in your life that care enough about you, and they listen to this,

and they're like, I think you should listen to this, because you deserve to have more joy and peace and meaning in your life and this conversation might help you tap into it. Because that's what this conversation is all about. Our guest today is the, as in capital T-H-E, world's leading researcher on the intersection of spirituality, psychology, and mental health. Dr. Lisa Miller is a graduate of Yale and the University of Pennsylvania,

where she earned her PhD in psychology. Dr. Miller is a professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University. She has held over a decade of joint appointments in the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University Medical School. And she is also the founder of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute at Columbia,

which is the first Ivy League graduate program dedicated to spirituality in psychology. She is also the editor of the Oxford University Press Handbook of Psychology and Spirituality, and a two-time president of the American Psychological Association Society for Psychology and Spirituality.

Dr. Miller's innovative research has been published in more than 100 peer-reviewed articles in leading journals, including Cerebral Cortex, the American Journal of Psychiatry, and the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. For decades, Dr. Miller has been looking at brain scans of people who are experiencing spiritual moments and seeing exactly what that looks like biologically and physiologically in the brain. Her research has shown that spirituality creates changes in your brain that protect against depression, substance

abuse, anxiety, and other mental illnesses. She is also the New York Times bestselling author of multiple books, including The Awakened Brain, The New Science of Spirituality, and Our Quest for an Inspired Life. And I'll tell you what, living an inspired life, doesn't that sound good? It sounds pretty good to me too. And Dr. Lisa Miller is here to help walk us step by step through how we can do exactly that. So please help me welcome her to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Dr. Lisa Miller, I am so excited for this conversation. We haven't even had it yet. And I can already feel the hair on my arms lifting up. I can feel the energy in this room swirling around us. And I am just so grateful that you're here. I am so thrilled to be here, Mel. I love what you have put into our world. And it's a blessing to be here

with this extraordinary woman. Thank you. Let's start by having you speak directly to the person who's with us right now. And they don't have any time, but they have found the time and made the time to be here with us. Could you tell them what they might experience in their life that could be different if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us and teach us today. You will be able to see into the deeper nature of life and live a far more profound and meaningful journey.

And that is you, there is no one left out. Everyone can do this. And is that true regardless of where you are on sort of that scale of spirituality from I don't believe in anything, or I used to but I don't anymore, to somebody who wants to but is skeptical, to somebody who considers themselves spiritual, but not religious, to somebody who has a devout religious practice. No matter where you are on that scale, you are a spiritual being, you are built naturally spiritual.

And so this conversation applies to everybody equally. There is no one on earth who's not spiritual. Now, when you say that though, for a person, because there's a lot of intellectuals that work here at 143 Studios, a lot of smart people. Not them. Yeah, who want to be more spiritual, but don't know how. And so when you say, regardless of who you are, what you believe or where you are in your life right now,

you are by design a spiritual being. 100%. Dr. Lisa, what do you mean by that? Yes, Mel, might we try and invite everyone into a practice? Sure. Okay. This is a practice that was given to me, I always thank the teacher by the late

Dr. Gary Weaver, whose focus was on working with people who said, ah, not for me, the spiritual stuff. Okay. And it's a direct practice in the language of life, shall we? Yes. Let's do it. Okay. I invite you to close your eyes if you'd like, clear out your inner space with five breaths. clear out your inner space with five breaths. In your inner space, in your inner chamber, I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. To your table, you may invite anyone living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind. Anyone living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind and with them all sitting

there, ask them if they love you. Ask them if they love you. Ask them if they love you. And now you may invite your higher self, the part of you that is so much more than anything you may have done or not done, anything you may have or not have, your true eternal higher self, and ask you if you love you. Ask you if you love you. Ask you if you love you. And now finally, you may invite your higher power, whatever word is yours, however you know, your higher power. And ask your higher power if they love you.

And now with all of these people sitting here right now, what do they need to share? What do they need to tell you now? What do you need to know? What do you need to know? When you're ready, I invite you back. So how did you experience that? Well, what was interesting for me personally is I immediately dropped in.

Like I could see the table, I started to slot people immediately, you were actually there. Thank you. My husband was there, my son was there, my mom was there, and Daven, my therapist was there. And I could easily answer the question, do you love me? Because what had dropped into consciousness in the visualization were those people. When you asked me to visualize my higher self

and you asked me to ask my higher self if they loved me, I immediately said yes. And I reflected though, on the fact that if I had done that visualization 10 years ago, I probably would have said no. Wow. Because I would have had judgment over who I was, where I was in life, things I've done in my past. And so I kind of had this moment where I was thinking about somebody who might be listening,

who can't access the I love you from their higher self or who when you said higher self, immediately thought, well, what is that? I don't even know what that is. And then when you asked us to call in the higher power, whatever that means for us, I have all kinds of things that came to mind, images and symbols and things that have deep spiritual meaning in my life that connect me to something bigger than myself

and to a higher purpose. But after I asked that for myself, I wondered for somebody who doesn't consider themselves spiritual, I wondered if they saw anything. So for you, the third chair, the higher power, who or what came? What came for me? Well, the first thing that dropped in was an owl. And the next thing that dropped in was the view from where we live in Vermont, which is a very grounding place that I go visually and physically to just feel connected to something bigger. This

is very funny, but I'm laughing because it's kind of a cheesy image. But I have this visual of the Harry Potter mythical animal Buckbeak. And Buckbeak is this image that has come to me in meditations that is a very protective force that circles above and really is looking out and it represents safety. And then the other thing that came as a visual is on the cover of the Let Them Theory book, there are all these little raised dots that you can feel that are gold.

And they represent kind of beams of consciousness that are going out into the world, because the cover is a lot like a burst. And so I think about everything I do, how I show up every day and the energy I bring to every episode that I put out, to every hug that I give, to the way that I move through life as individual little points of light that I am sending out, but I also see those dots as the same thing coming back to me. And so those were the things that came as an image to me when you said, what is the higher consciousness or power for you? So Mel, you're living an awakened life.

What does that mean? It means that you are aware in all those beautiful images that we are loved and held, we are guided, and we are never alone. Every one of us is built to be able to perceive that we are loved and held, guided, and never alone. These are not beliefs. These are deep lived experiences. So Dr. Lisa, what is spirituality? So human spirituality has three pieces. One

is that we are built to see into the deeper, profound nature of life. The second is that the deeper nature of life is real, alive, and guiding. And the third is that when you put the two together, every single day we have the opportunity to choose to live in dialogue with the deeper force of life, every one of us. So spirituality is three things. I just want to make sure I get this. That number one, that there is a deeper nature of life and the experience of living it that is available to you. And you are physically wired to be able to tap into it. That's number one.

Number two. You're physically wired to tap into it. You're physically wired to tap into the deeper nature of life. Number two, it is real. Yes. It is not a belief. It is something deeper that you know and feel.

Is that true? And alive and working. And alive and working. Even if you ignore it, it's alive and working. But point three is if you are in dialogue, your life unfolds entirely differently. What does in dialogue with the deeper forces of life mean? Every moment of my waking life, I'm not controlling my life, I'm not wishing my life to go a certain direction.

I'm an open observer to what the universe is saying to me now. At every moment in my life, I am an open observer ready to perceive the direction of the universe. Some people call the deeper nature of life the universe or source. They'll say, I have felt touched by source. Some people experience the deeper nature of life within their own beautiful faith tradition, whether they're Hindu or Catholic or Jewish or Muslim, whatever their faith tradition may be. They experience the deeper nature of life and call it, my word is God. But some people say Jesus or Heshem, the universe. It doesn't matter what your word is. And I've never in my entire life heard anyone argue that there are two sources

of all life. Everyone seems to agree there's one source of all life. And then there's simply a beautiful range of words that we apply to the source of all life. And is the source of life energy? Is that why this is all happening? That it's energetic waves, it's electromagnet, like I'm going to come up with some big words that I don't know. But you know what I mean? Like now my intellectual brain is trying to nail down and knock on wood. What actually is source? I mean? Like now my intellectual brain is trying to nail down and knock on wood what actually is source.

The source of life. So the source of life in your own quest, I invite you to consider is the source of life conscious? Does it know you? Does it show up for you? I don't know. Is the source of life loving? Yes. The source of life is loving? Yes. Does the source of life come forth in everyone?

If they allow it. If they allow it. The dialogue, the choice to be in relationship to source. And those are the questions that every single one of us has the opportunity to explore our entire life as a quest. I guess what I should ask you is what's the difference between being religious versus being somebody who's spiritual? Spirituality through the lens of science is innate. Every single one of us is born with a natural capacity to awaken, the capacity for an awakened

brain, every one of us. Religion for many people is the way that their natural spirituality is cultivated, built, given language and direction. But whether or not we are religious, and no matter what religion we may be, we all have the same inborn natural spirituality. There is one awakened brain, and 10.2 billion people on earth have the same awakened brain. You keep saying the word awakened brain. And so I want to dig into this, but first I want to make sure that the person who's listening, yes, really grasps what you're saying, because I think this is a critical distinction.

It's important because the word spirituality is thrown around all over the place. And I don't think until I really locked in and read your book and I'm sitting here hanging on to every one of your words that I actually now understand the term. And so whether you're atheist, whether you are a skeptic who wants to believe, whether you are somebody who's called yourself spiritual or whether you have a faith tradition that you practice of a particular religion. Every single day. Every single day. There is no difference in the innate wiring of every one of us and that we all have this capacity that we are designed for, for a spiritual life and an awakened brain. Precisely. What is an awakened brain?

The day we're born, we have the wiring to awaken. We have the circuits in our brain. And the human journey is innately a spiritual journey. That's not like just a beautiful idea, though it is lovely. It is a scientific fact. Here's the facts. Through the lens of science, we look at twin studies to see if any capacity is inborn or environmentally formed. So eye color, height and weight, the tendency to get diabetes, all these things have inborn, heritable components, personality, temperament, right? So whether I'm an introvert or an extrovert, whether I'm laid back or tightly wound, that's our temperament. And temperament is half inborn, half environmentally formed.

If I'm an introvert, I can push myself to go to the party. The same methodology, a twin study, can be applied to the extent to which spirituality is inborn or environmentally built. And it turns out that the human capacity for spiritual life through the lens of a twin study is inborn. We've known this for 20 years. I would have thought that it would, people talked about it morning, noon, and night.

We are naturally spiritual beings. Everyone, look at who we are. I'm wondering, why do you think there has been such a crisis in faith around the world? Because you know everywhere you look as I was preparing to have this conversation with you, it seems like spirituality or people practicing a religion has been in decline around the globe and particularly here in the United States. I mean, is that true?

And why is that such a bad thing? There's enormous confusion about the difference between spirituality and religion. Okay. Spirituality is our birthright. We are all naturally spiritual beings. Religion is a gift of our environment. And we may or may not like the way and religion. Spirituality is our birthright. We are all naturally spiritual beings. Religion is a gift of our environment, and we may or may not like the way that it was walked and taught in

our childhood or growing up. Whether or not we are religious, we are all spiritual beings. Unfortunately, because people might have a discontent with how religion was practiced in their childhood home because people might not like their encounters with their own faith tradition. Many of us have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Many, many people. And the question is, wait a minute. If you throw the spiritual baby out with the bathwater, what do you lose?

You lose your own authentic spiritual path. Take back your own spiritual path. There's no need to be reactive against people who did it differently or in your eyes wrong. That was their walk. Everything that you need, you already have to open up a spiritual awareness, to awaken and live in dialogue with the deeper force in life. I read in the New York Times this weekend as I was preparing for this conversation, there was a big article actually about the fact that Americans have not found a replacement for religion. That in the 1990s, there was a massive exit from traditional faith religious

practice and people I think have been searching ever since for something. And one of the things that I was thinking a lot about is that, you know, when you have a religious practice, so you have a place that you go, and you are in community with other people, that practice in and of itself is giving you a number of things that every human being needs. Number one, you're in community, so you have this experience of being seen and feeling a sense of belonging to something. You have a guidance and belief system that hopefully is helpful to you to help you navigate life. And you have behaviors and ways of thinking

that help you stay connected to the deeper forces, that help you reframe the challenges of life, that help remind you that you're not alone in your struggles, and that hopefully lift you up. So Mel, there's no question that if there is a religion where you feel at home, it is a wonderful thing. If you have found a religious home, that is absolutely wonderful because religion

pulls together all that we need to nourish natural spirituality. There is a language of transcendence and a practice of a way to get there. There's a roadmap of the sacred reality. There's elders and babies all around you so you understand the human journey as a spiritual journey. Yes, and you have the ceremonies for the beginning of life, you have the ceremonies when somebody passes over. And so you're constantly in the wash of that river and the forces of life that are undeniable. We all come in the same way.

We all leave the same way. So if you don't feel at home in a house of worship, you have three choices. Where do you find it? Because I think that's the hardest part for me is where do I find it? I used to go to the church at Harvard when Peter Gomes was alive and it felt like a home. Beautiful, so you did have it there. Oh yes, absolutely. The service, the community, the big baritone voice,

it was open, affirming, welcoming, it was of the works and the spirit. It was the force and I've never found it again. So that, which you discovered, is available to all of us. Option one is go find a house of worship where you do feel alive, and you do feel the presence of the source of life, who I call God. Go where you feel God's presence, and go where you feel people truly living out the truth.

And if you can't find it, walk down the street, or for some people across the country, there may be somewhere else other than where you grew up, such as you found Mel in the church at Harvard. The second option, the notion of Dharma that you can pick and choose in your own spiritual journey from different faith traditions. There might be something from Buddhism that speaks very deeply to you. There might be something resonant from Catholicism in your childhood. That Catholicism is wonderful, helping people see the deeper sacred reality

in the daily material reality. That might be something you keep if you grew up Catholic. There's much to learn from every faith tradition. As we are on our own spiritual quest, we can effectively say, what is the me and not me that I pick up from different faith traditions? And then of course, along those lines is what from my very own childhood faith tradition is me and not me.

Some people say, well, I didn't like the guilt and the shame, but I sure liked the fact that people showed up for each other. If someone was ill, there was food at their door and there were knocks on their door. Well, that's the piece that I miss. Like I think the piece for me that is hard about the quest, and I know a lot of my friends certainly feel the same way,

so do my kids, is this sense of, I don't know where to go for the community piece of it. Mm-hmm. Because if you're grappling with what you even believe, and you're not somebody that is really into doctrine, or you bristle when you see the complete disconnect between what's being said versus what the people who are saying it are actually doing in the world,

and so there's zero integrity there, then it's hard to find the community part of it. Because I do feel that it's a lonely thing at times. It certainly can be. And when you don't like the torchbearer, when the torchbearer doesn't walk the walk, but you know the flame is real, then the quest is to find other flame carriers.

And it can show up in a parenting circle. We're not gonna talk about like, who's kid got into what college. We're here to walk with each, we're not keeping up with the Joneses, we're walking with the Joneses. And this is a spiritual parenting circle. Dr. Miller, I am just so grateful that you're here.

And this feels like the perfect time to take a pause, give our sponsors a chance to share some important words with you. And I also want to give you a chance to just reflect on all that you're learning so far, all that's opening up for you, and be generous with this. Share Dr. Miller's wisdom with people in your life that you care about and that you love. There's no doubt in my mind that what we're learning today absolutely is transformative for each and every one of us. Don't go anywhere.

Dr. Miller and I are gonna be waiting for you after a short break. ["Dreams of a New World"] Welcome back, it's your buddy Mel Robbins, and today you and I are learning about the neuroscience and research surrounding the benefits of spirituality. Dr. Miller, I'm so excited about the prospect of living an inspired life and tapping into this innate spirituality within all of us. You know, something I was fascinated by in your book

is that when you looked at brain scans of people who are experiencing something spiritual, that the scans all look the same, like different places on the globe, cross genders, races, types of spiritual experiences. Can you tell us like what you actually saw when you look at brain scans and somebody's having a spiritual experience? Mel, just like there's one visual system

and there's one auditory system, there's one spiritual perception system. And you actually see it in the brain. We see it in FMRI studies, live action in the brain. It doesn't matter whether our participant is Catholic or Hindu or Jewish or spiritual and not religious, the same neuro correlates run. There is one spiritual brain and every human being on earth is endowed with the same spiritual brain.

Now, of course, we can strengthen the spiritual brain. There's human variability, just as there's human variability for music or math. But the foundational components of the spiritual brain are identical in 10 billion people on earth. Everyone has the same spiritual brain. So first note, religious war is obsolete. You're fighting about nothing because there's one seat of human spiritual perception

and you all have it and it's identical. The only difference is the words that you say and the beliefs that you have, which you were taught, versus the innate wiring, which activates during a spiritual experience, which is those moments when you are in dialogue and connected to the deeper forces of life. In our MRI study, whether someone said I was praying in the pews of my childhood church

when I felt God's presence, or if they said I was walking in Glacier National Park and I saw light on the ice and I knew there was something more. The identical neuro correlates run. Spiritual but not religious, deeply religious. The same spiritual brain allows us to feel the transcendent relationship. There is in and through us the deeper loving transcendent relationship. If an awakened brain means you're tapping into this capacity to be

connected to the deeper nature of life. Yes. If you're not tapping into it, what is the state of your brain? Nah, prepared and ready to go. You were born with the circuits to awaken. You were born with everything you need to awaken your brain. But this is a choice because while the wiring is in every single one of us, lived spiritual life is one-third innate, two-thirds cultivated and built. We've got to do our job. Got it. Okay, so what you're saying here and you write about this in your best-selling book, The Awakened Brain. I'm on page 58. I want to read this to you because you're talking about this study. So you've just said,

Dr. Lisa, it is a proven, researched, scientific, medical fact that every single one of us has the wiring for an awakened brain and a deeply spiritual existence. And so I'm reading right here, our spirituality is, substantially, roughly two-thirds a factor of how we're raised, the company we keep, the things we do to build the muscle. But still, a significant degree of our capacity to experience the sacred and transcendent, one-third, is inscribed in our genetic code as innate as our eye color or fingerprints. And for a long time, you write that spirituality had just been seen in the eyes of clinical science as synonymous with religion.

It's like an understood belief, a set of views, a choice, perhaps a crutch to rely on in hard times, not as an aspect of human experience that might be core to our innate being. And the study that you're talking about, Dr. Kenler's study, was the first time that the scientific community had published research exploring the possibility that there might be a genetic capacity within us for spiritual experience. This is the part that I love.

This new research raised the possibility that just as we are cognitive, physical, and emotional beings, we are also spiritual beings. In other words, it's possible that we are built to be spiritual and that spirituality might be a fundamental and necessary part of our human inheritance that contributes to our mental health. This groundbreaking study suggests

that spirituality isn't just a belief, but something each of us is born with and the capacity to experience. In fact, you say the ability to be spiritual, which is to be connected to and in dialogue with the deeper nature and forces of life is our birthright. Yes. Science says you are spiritual.

Science says spirituality is your birthright. No one is left out. Everyone is spiritual. For somebody that does that meditation and you can visualize the table, you start to drop in the people, right? That you said, see people at the table. Who truly have your best interest in mind. Who truly have your best interest in mind.

And then you ask the question, do they love you? For somebody who immediately starts to put up resistance or go, oh, this is so cheesy, or for crying out loud, here we go with the thing. What is happening in their brain? Well, first of all, I invite you to be curious. Whatever you might think about your parents' religion or your grandparents' religion, or the torchbearer who didn't walk the walk. You know, the flame is pure and bright. The fire is divine. But the torchbearer who didn't walk the walk. The flame is pure and bright.

The fire is divine. But the torchbearer was a human being who may have talked the walk, but not walked the walk. Whoever you met and whatever you thought, this is your spiritual path and no one can do it but you. This is your authentic, sacred spiritual journey. So let's start with the word God. I have heard so many people say,

I just don't believe it with the guy in the beard. Okay, that's how a human being on earth described God, but what about you in your precious shot at life? How do you experience God? And what is God based on your own direct lived experience? What does your heart say? So okay, for you, God might not be a guy with a beard. Is there a presence in and through life that holds you and loves you so that when things have gone

wrong, you actually didn't fall through a black hole of abyss? Where are you held? Have there been moments where you were guided? Things way too unprobabilistic to have happened by chance. Synchronicities, use your word. You were guided. No question asked. And have you found that in your deepest, darkest moments, you actually were not alone, someone shared up. You were loved, you were guided, and you were not alone. Wow, do you wanna call back God or you pick your word? Maybe you wanna say higher power.

But this living presence in a source of life, current of life, the river of life, whatever your beautiful word, in your own lived experience, have you felt loved and held guided and never alone, ever, even once? And who was that? For somebody who feels alone, how do you tap into this innate wiring so that you can feel held by that force? And I love the word you used, river, this sort of current of life, the nature of life. How can you tap into that?

Because that's basically what you're talking about. Absolutely. Many people find that there was something that they were raised with. They dust off a rusty prayer. There's a place for their family one every summer. There's somewhere where they return to source. And deep, deep, deep within you,

is there a joyous awakening? Is there something deep within you that feels peace? Is there something where suddenly you know you're not alone? You're part of all life, whether it's the beautiful vista in Vermont. For some people, it's light on the water. For some, it's fellow living beings. And for some, it's going to their house of worship from their childhood, sitting in the pews where they sat with their parents and grandparents or being part of the

pilgrimage to a sacred site. Two-thirds of people say that it is through my beautiful faith tradition that I do experience the presence of the deep river, the force of life. And one-third of people say I feel the river as the river. It doesn't matter what you call it and what your map is, there's one river. And you are built to be able to have a relationship with this deep current through your life. Why is it important to have this? Ah, life unfolds entirely differently. You know, Mel, you've done such pioneering work on the little me, the controlling me, telling other people what to do is really a dead end. And when we open and take people as they are When we decide to paddle with the river not against the river as you say so beautifully and let them

We're going with actually the deepest force of life. The question is then what is the deepest force of life? Well, I invite you to be curious. I invite you to explore how the deepest force of life has shown up for you. Dr. Lisa, what are some of your favorite simple ways to introduce a spiritual practice into your life? Yes. And I'm looking for things that might be surprising to someone. That that is in fact something

that can help you awaken your brain and connect to the deeper forces of life, that it actually is spirituality. You've mentioned taking a walk. Can you give us a list of some of your favorites? One of the most spiritual things you can do is go next door and shovel your neighbor's driveway. When you serve other people, you are enacting love held guided and never alone. When you simply help the elder person down the road whose spouse has died.

When you show up to the mom's home as a new baby and say, can I bring you two nights of dinner and take your kids to the park? That is spiritual. Why? Because you are walking the walk, you're a living prayer of loved, held, guided, and never alone. What's another way you can practice spirituality and awaken the brain?

When you perceive remarkable confluences in your life, when you have moments of, wow, there's a synchronicity, wow, how remarkable that I've really been searching for where am I gonna put my kid in school? And this mom who sat next to me at the coffee shop is telling me about her, her child just flourished at the school down on the corner. That's a gift. Thank you, universe. What a wonderful gift. Thank you to the mom who told me. Thank you to the universe. Take note. Notice that unique, most unprobabilistic meaning. Know that that is a real event, that form of

synchronistic knowing is real knowing. Reflect on it and then act on it. Go look at the school. Bring your kid. Another way, you know, many people have had extraordinary experiences in their life, a moment of unity of reality. I'm standing on the hilltop in Vermont and I feel the sun and the wind and I hear the birds and I know there's a oneness of which I'm a part in all life. It's a unit of experience and it's precious and it's sacred. Whatever your views of the higher power, it is in itself a sacred moment. Many people, particularly children, when they're young, we'll see parents who've passed or grandparents who've

passed. This is not rare. It's not freaky. This is how we're built. We're built to be able to feel and know our ancestors and that they watch over us. These events fill our lives. Dr. Miller, I could listen to you all day long. I just love what you're teaching us. So thank you again for being here. I want to take

a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors. And I also want to give you a chance to truly share this conversation with people that you care about, because every single one of us needs to understand the power of tapping into spirituality within ourselves in our day-to-day life. And don't go anywhere because Dr. Miller and I are gonna be waiting for you after a short break, so stay with us. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins.

And today you and I are learning about the research connected to spirituality and living a more inspired, happier, and more healthy life. So Dr. Miller, you know, one of the things that you write about in The Awakened Brain is that you say spirituality is not a belief. And I think that's for me, I was raised in the faith tradition of the Methodist church. But for me, it just started to feel more doctrine and less of the spirit and the current. The torchbearers did it that way. Yes, and so I think a lot of us, I'll speak for myself personally,

get hung up on the belief system versus the feel of it. And you write in the awakened brain and as you're unpacking the science of spirituality that it isn't a belief, that you call it a perception. Can you explain what that means? Your spirituality inside of you is a seat of perception. It is your ability to feel and know the presence of guidance in your life, to see synchronicities. It's your ability to feel and know the profundity. Why did this person show up in my life of all times now? It's your gift to be able to

sense that even when everything falls apart, you are not going to and you're actually buoyant. It's your sense that no matter how much I mess up and the things I'm ashamed of that I've done, there's something deep and alive and eternal, the flame that's worthy. Your soul is worthy. And your understanding of this doesn't need to be intellectual. In fact, through the lens of science, spirituality is not a belief. It is a deep seat of perception. Science shows us that we are built and wired to see and know the deep reality of life. It is a feeling of being loved. It is the sense of being buoyant.

And it is not just a nice feeling like happiness. It is a perception of the truth of the way the world is really built. Spirituality is the relationship between one, your ability to see and know the deep sacred current in life, two, that this current is real, and three, that every single day you have the opportunity to have a relationship to ride with the current of life and see where the river is taking you. The brain is not a factory that makes spiritual thoughts. The brain is an antenna that receives spiritual truth. Okay, I need just to expand on this because you wrote about this in your bestselling book, The Awakened Brain.

I mean, this is where I took out the highlighter and was like, wait, what? And this is on page 102. And I really want you to unpack this for us. You basically had this kind of aha moment as you're getting your PhD where you're like, okay, wait a minute. Psychology talks about human beings as this closed loop and that, where you're like, okay, wait a minute, psychology talks about human beings as this closed loop and that, you know, the assumption at the time is that your brain

creates thoughts, that all meaning is interpretation, and that we can feel better by rearranging our thoughts, which, you know, I talk about a lot in conversations on this podcast with world-ren renowned experts in terms of your mindset and how you think about things and reframing things from the positive to the negative and not being so pessimistic, but being more optimistic, right?

And that by disputing negative thoughts or thoughts that make us unhappy and replacing depressing thoughts with a new framework that helps you tell a brighter story, that that's sort of the thrust of psychology and reframing. To feel good. Yes. And then you write, but what if the brain didn't create thoughts so much as receive them? What if our brains were less like idea generators and more like an antenna or docking station for receiving a larger

consciousness. What if to feel better is actually to detect and be in alignment with that consciousness. And what if emotions direct us into the world as it really is? And you were discovering the science of synchronicity, that feeling better isn't just a matter of creating new thoughts, of replacing unhappy ones with happier ones. It's also about noticing and aligning ourselves with whatever life is showing us.

There's never a guarantee that we're gonna get what we want or what we thought we wanted. When we become spiritually aware, it's a sign that despite the uncertainty, we are aligned with the force of life. So when you had that aha moment, is that when you're like, wait a minute, we're thinking about the brain and the way we live life and the way we think about thoughts and emotions and what's possible the wrong way? Yes, absolutely.

So the brain actually is built, we are built to be in alignment with the force of life. When we feel deeply aligned, when we use our inner compass to align ourselves with the deep force of life, then there's the fluidity of moving down the river. We have spent so much time in psychology trying to make people feel good, pumping people up with self-serving thoughts that we've lost the deeper purpose as spiritual beings to whole person flourishing, which is to live in alignment with the deep force in life. What does it mean to be in alignment with the forces of life?

Your emotions are accurate. If you're feeling guilty because you cheated on a test, you cheated on your spouse, that is an accurate index of your alignment with the force of life. You just made a betrayal. If you're feeling guilty, if you're feeling sad, those are not pathological emotions. They're telling you something about your alignment with life.

Those are a gift. Your emotions are for you, not against you. They are an index of your relationship to reality. Now, where do I go from there? Well, I'm not stuck. I'm not stuck feeling guilty, or I'm not stuck feeling sad. That is the knock at the door to shifting my way of being.

It's the beginning of my new way of being. It is not a failure. I'm not off the spiritual path. I'm on the spiritual path being told, eh, course correction. And as I start to align, open my heart, feel the guidance, start to just be very kind to people, care for fellow living beings, care for myself. As I start to walk the walk of love and care, as I start to be nice to the people who totally annoy me, they're not evil, they're just annoying.

Right? Let them. Let them. So this takes us out of the seat of control. It're not evil, they're just annoying, right? If I don't. Let them. Let them. So this takes us out of the seat of control. It's not about where I wanna go and what I think I want. Because everything I think I want is actually outdated. It's based on today backwards. You know, I want this apartment, I want, that's what I think I want,

but it's actually based on historical information. The synchronicities that guide me, the deep current in the river is taking me somewhere that I've yet to discover. I've yet to imagine where the river's taking me. And when we awaken and say, okay, life, I'll ride with the river. Okay, higher power.

What are you showing me now? What do you want from me now? And go with the river. We are on a glorious adventure. We are going somewhere we never dreamed. And it is not what we wanted. It is better than what we wanted or better for us. What immediately came to mind

as you were talking about this glorious vision of just, it's like, let go of the oars and stop like paddling against the current and fighting so hard to get God knows where. And this liberating feeling of trust that when you let go of the resistance and the grinding and the kind of day to day to day crap that we're doing every day. It just felt so much easier to drop into the current and trust as hard as that can be. What am I trusting? Am I trusting that I'm going to be okay?

Am I trusting that the current's taking me where I'm meant to go? Am I trusting that everything's happening for a reason? Like how, what are we doing when you let go? Because the need for control is like, no, I'm going to are we doing when you let go? Because the need for control is like, no, I'm gonna keep going. What do you mean, Dr. Lisa, I don't know what I want. Like it's all based on the past.

I'm supposed to just go with the flow and trust that life is guiding me? May we do another practice? Sure. Okay, this is called the road of life. The road of life. The road of life, and it's in the awakened brain. Okay.

I invite you to take five breaths again and clear out your inner space. The road of life. The road of life. Okay. And it's in the awakened brain. Okay. I invite you to take five breaths again and clear out your inner space. I invite you to think of a time where you wanted something so badly, that job, him or her or them to say, yes, you wanted that school, you wanted it for yourself, you wanted it for your family, you wanted that red door. So you did everything right. You researched it, you planned, you tactically were on for your family. You wanted that red door. So you did everything right. You researched it. You planned.

You tactically were on the ball. You go for your red door and it stuck. You can't believe it stuck because A plus B plus C, you had done everything right. But the red door is stuck. You might kick it. You might shake it. No red door. No red door for you.

And only because that red door is stuck, you have no choice. You turn 50, 80, 110 degrees over there. Over there is a wide open yellow door. A wide open yellow door. You didn't know yellow doors existed. Hadn't heard of them. On the other side of the Yellow Door is someone more right for you, is a job that makes you feel alive, is a mentor at a school that sees you in a way that you didn't even know you were capable of. That Yellow Door was not what you had wanted.

It was better and better for you. wanted. It was better and better for you. You've crossed the yellow door to a whole new golden landscape. And as you sit back now, take a breath and think of that stuck red door and the hairpin turn that took you to the wide open yellow door. Was there anyone at that hairpin turn? It could have been someone you met for two minutes at a coffee shop. It could have been a grandparent who confided in you a story that she'd never told before. There was a trail angel, someone at the hairpin turn pointing you to the wide open yellow door, giving you information. the trail angel at the hairpin turn. And as you sit now, finally way back, stuck red door, hairpin turn, trail angel, and wide open yellow door, the yellow

door that has so much to do with who you are and where you are today. How really are the most important parts of our lives formed? Yes, we have to plan and yes, we have to do our part. But do we really have radical control? Or are we more deeply in dialogue with a force that guides us in us, through us, that closes red doors and opens yellow doors and puts trail angels in our path? What do you call this deeper force in us,

through us and among us? And your ability to be an open system and listen, listen with an open heart and full eyes to the force of life. Have you been on a spiritual path all along? What's wild about that is that the ultimate question is, have you always been living a spiritual life? You just weren't in dialogue with it. This deep river, who I call God, is the force that pulls us along. And when we choose to be in dialogue,

when we say, hey, what river are you guiding us to now? What higher power are you asking of us now? Okay, I just didn't get the thing I wanted 11 times. Maybe if I pivot, there's a wide open yellow door. Maybe, thank goodness, try as I might, bang my head as hard as I can, that red door is unyielding because there is over there, if I would just pivot, a wide open yellow door. In your book, you share so many amazing stories of how spirituality can really save your life in many cases. Do you have a favorite story? Is there one that you could share with us today?

I share in The Awakened Brain that I wanted dearly and deeply for five years to start a family. So sure enough, my husband and I went to all the best doctors up and down the East Coast, the one who invented in vitro the highest rates of conception, and still no children. And in this path, I got the picture after about 11 failed in vitros and plenty of little pokes and prods and disappointments. You know, every failed in vitro felt like a hideous funeral. Oh, you're not pregnant. That felt like going to the funeral of the baby

that wasn't born, the tiny little dead cell, right? So it was a very painful journey. And in this journey of struggling to conceive, I started receiving guidance. I received guidance from trial angels, some of whom were people. A guy on the bus came up to me and he said, you know, lady, and I was pretty depressed this day, you look like just that kind of lady that would go all around the world adopting kids.

Well, maybe we should. Another synchronicity. My mother calls out of the blue. She said, I just want you to know our neighbor adopted the most adorable little boy, little John Joseph. Just wanted you to know. Oh, and he's from Russia. Click, which is where we found our son.

The synchronicities that guided us to our beautiful boy, Isaiah, on the other side of the world. The most profound of which was at one point, I have a big cousin Mel, my big cousin, Big Jane, I'm Lisa Jane, she's Big Jane. And she called me and said, you know, Ms. Columbia professor, you think you're so smart, but you're missing the point.

You want to understand spirituality, you need to come out here to a healing ceremony. And together with the Lakota and Big Jane, I joined a group of women who were all praying for healing. And on that day, Mel, in that Inipi in South Dakota, every woman had come to pray for a son. One woman said, my son, he's not coming home. He's been using drugs. One woman said, my son, he's starting to leave his wife and kids. I'm worried for the family. Every woman was worried about his son. Until we got to Big Jane, who said, I'm here with my cousin, Little Jane. Little

Jane has come looking for her child. I'm wondering if we could help her. And for the first time, I felt confidence in this journey to find a child. Every woman nodded. Sitting in an anipia in South Dakota, knowing that there were people scouting for our child in Eastern Europe and Russia, what did the two have to do with each other? What did those two seemingly distant physical events have to do with each other? We said a prayer led by the medicine man's wife. The prayer went up through the top of the anipi, a collective prayer. And Mel, that night, after five years of weeping and pain and tears, that night our son was found in Russia. Just as we are loved and held and guided,

when we show up for others and are loving, holding and guiding, we fulfilled who we really are as spiritual beings. And it doesn't work just through a ping pong match. It doesn't work always materially or mechanistically or things that we physically do. It all often passes through source. What does the research say and what have you found about spirituality in kids? Oh, so important, Mel. So, you know, I'm a parent like you. I have three kids. Your parent

culture is driven by all of us wanting to help our kids. We want them to get the best education. We want them to live in a safe community. We want them to cultivate themselves. But very often, parent culture has a quiet, it's like a little sleeper cell in it. I call it radical achieving awareness that everything is actually measured by, well, how well are you doing? And what it sounds like at pick up and drop off

is how'd the math test go? Did you guys win today on the soccer field? Well-intentioned, well-intentioned, available parents, but the child often hears radical, ongoing, running, achieving awareness as contingent love. Am I doing a good enough job? And in fact, Mel, I have a friend and colleague, Dr. Sunia Luthar, who published 10 years of studies, looking at the fact that when children feel contingent love, they actually get anxious. They actually get depressed because there's no such thing

as good enough. It's really just running on a habit trail, running on a treadmill. What is the alternative for parents to unyielding achieving awareness? It's to bring awakened awareness, to bring spiritual life into every single moment of our parenting. So spirituality is not the thing we do only on Sunday or Saturday or only at prayer at dinner. Spirituality is the golden thread that we've through every moment of parenting. Spirituality is the conversation in the front seat of the SUV when you just lost the game and you just didn't get into

your first choice college. And you know what? Maybe the universe has a plan for you. Maybe God wants something for you that you don't even know exists yet. Let's do the red door, yellow door practice. I wonder what's on the other side of this hairpin turn." So parenting from a spiritual perspective is making ourselves available as spiritual moms, as spiritual dads, as spiritual grandparents. Grandparents are tremendously important. How do we do that? How do we help our children understand us spiritually and support? How do we support our children spiritually? There's four things we can do as parents. The first is be transparent about your own spiritual life. So meditate in a visible place and say, do you want to sit by my side? Read poetry in nature, two roads diverged

in a yellow wood as we're hiking at a fork. Say a prayer out loud. When you do that, it says something tremendously important, life-changing to your children. We talk about the spiritual reality. It has a language and a way in. It is real. The spiritual reality is real. And our relationship in our home, in our family, goes to the bedrock depth of the spiritual reality. That's a whole different family. What's interesting is I've always felt really guilty because we did not bring up our kids in a traditional faith religious practice. And so I've always felt like, okay,

my kids missed out on something, they don't have a foundation for belief, but as you were going through those four things, I was like, check, check, check, check. Fantastic. I mean, I don't, I mean, I guess I have to take a step back and say, I hope it's fantastic. And what I'm getting from your work is that my spiritual journey is my spiritual journey.

Yes. And my children's spiritual journey is their spiritual journey. Oh, yes. I'm not looking to reproduce myself. I'm not looking for three little leases. Yes. I hope that by speaking authentically of my spiritual path, praying out loud,

using the roadmap of spiritual reality every single day, my children then are authorized to listen to their own inner spiritual compass. Is it true that young people are far less, well, I gotta adjust now based on what I'm learning, everybody is a spiritual being. Is it spiritual? But is it true that young people today are far less awakened and connected to the deeper forces in life? Young people, these are very open, spiritual young adults.

Meaning what? Well, they're born with an exquisite wiring to experience the deeper nature of life and see that in one another. And in fact, they're reaching for it by being careful about how they speak to each other and about human rights and animal rights. They're reaching for it. Gen Z is beautiful. We have given them a pretty empty two-thirds

embrace, a pretty empty bucket of how to cultivate natural spirituality. And so they're searching. And to Gen Z, I say, you've got everything you need. It's a quest. You've got hardwired and ability to feel and know the deeper nature of life. But what we failed to give you was the certainty that that was hard, valid knowing. We told you that things are only real if you can point your finger and touch them. We became really, it's called radical materialism. It's only real if you can touch it. It's only real if you can measure it. That is tremendously disavowing of the birthright of inner knowing. That is tremendously abnegating. It gets in the way

of natural spiritual awareness. So Gen Z, we're sorry, but you still are built to be on a quest. And I know that you will find a relationship to your higher power. It is there. What are the steps? One, find your way to the presence. Some people do this through meditation and prayer. Some people find their way to the presence through pilgrimage. Some people use hallucinogens. It doesn't matter how you open, right?

But once you find your way to the presence, it's important you can get back. And how do you get back? That is your practice. Find the presence in your practice to get back. Are you at it alone? Well, sometimes, but you need to be able to share this experience with other people, your spiritual people.

So you have your practice, your people, and now it's time to understand what life throws you. What is life showing me now on spiritual grounds? That's your path. And finally, what's this all for? Not am I gonna be a doctor, a teacher, a media presence, I'm gonna be a soul on earth with a higher purpose. And when you can take those five pieces

and go from feeling the presence, maybe once a fleeting time on a mountain top, on an ayahuasca trip, in a moment of love. If you can take that fleeting moment of feeling the presence and turn that into a life, a fully integrated spiritual life, then life will do more than meet you halfway. I think it's more than Gen Z.

I really do. I feel like we're living in a moment because we see it with our global audience. And you may be listening to Dr. and Lisa and I or watching us on YouTube from somewhere halfway around the world. But it is very clear to me that the level of stress and overwhelm and fear and isolation that people feel is not how we are supposed to feel. That the headlines that we're seeing, the greediness and the power grab and the othering of people and opponents and turning everybody else into the problem, that is not how we

are meant to be. And it all comes from one source, which is the atrophy of our spiritual core in global civil society. There's an antidote. There's an antidote to all the stress and depression and addiction and suicidality. There's an antidote to the horrific ethics right now in our culture. There's an antidote and it's one source. And it's the reignition of our natural spiritual awareness. Everyone on earth can do this. We can shift the conversation to be a foundationally spiritual conversation and that pulls forward

who we really are. You know, we have to because you write in The Awakened Brain, this is on page four, we live in an age of unprecedented mental anguish. Depression, anxiety, and substance abuse have reached epidemic proportions globally. In 2017, 66.6 million Americans, more than half of the respondents on the National Survey on Drug Use and Health

reported binge drinking within the past month, and 20 million meet the criteria for a substance use disorder. 31% of American adults will develop a full-blown anxiety disorder at some point in their lives, and 19% in any given year. The World Health Organization reports that 264 million people on the planet are depressed. Depression is the third most costly disability worldwide. Each year, 17 million American adults are depressed. Over 16% of youth and late adolescent currently face depression.

And the impact of depression on suicide accounts for the second leading cause of death in adolescence rivaled only by death by auto accident. And I would imagine that those statistics in the last eight years have gotten horrifically worse. Much worse. You say that the anecdote is spirituality. The antidote to the mass mental health crisis is spirituality. Mel, when we look at the statistics with the sharp decline in mental health, there has

been concomitant decline in personal spirituality. The two go hand in hand statistically. Why has this happened? Well, I think many people in struggling with their family faith tradition have thrown the spiritual baby out with the bathwater. They have lost sight of their deep spiritual bearings. Let me ask you about depression and mental health issues

and the amount of anguish and struggle that people are experiencing right now. Because in your book, on page 153, I'm going to read this to you, you say, depression and spirituality appear to be two sides of the same coin, vastly different experiences that in fact share some significant physiology. I had long wondered from an epidemiological and clinical perspective, if some types of depression might be a symptom of a person's craving for spirituality and a call for the spiritual self to awaken. Dr. Lisa, can you talk about the research and the science that explains the connection between spirituality and depression in particular?

Mel, when we do MRI studies of the brain, we see a thick cortex across the regions of the awakened brain and people who day in and day out sustain their spiritual life. It could be walks in nature, it could be meditation or prayer, it could have been right action, service. Whatever their MO, their spiritual MO, people who live and breathe every day, a dialogue with the deeper nature of life have a thicker, stronger brain across the regions of the awakened brain. So you have a healthier brain when you are living a spiritual life? You have a much healthier brain. And in fact, the regions that become thick and strong

through sustained spiritual life are the very same regions that are not thick and strong, but thin in people with recurrent major depression. What does that mean? I don't even understand what that means. So that means that we all have a brain that's very sensitive to how we live. And if we live a spiritual life, it gets thick and strong and we see deeper dimensions and yellow doors. But if we ignore this opportunity that we've been given to see life through spiritual eyes,

the brain itself is weaker, thinner, and less likely to perceive huge opportunities that lay before us. And I don't just mean opportunities for money or fame or him or her. I mean, the opportunity to live in alignment with your spiritual path. But I thought it was really compelling in your book and reading about the science of spirituality that two-thirds of it is actually addressed by spirituality. And when you look at the research that's recently been done about people that have a religious practice is what the research was around, that they found over and over again that people who had a religious practice were happier, tended to be healthier, tended to have less

rates of depression and anxiety than people who didn't. Yes. What does that tell you, Dr. Lisa? Well, it's absolutely a fact over hundreds of peer-reviewed studies that a strong spiritual, often spiritual and religious life, but a strong spiritual life is more protective against the diseases of despair than anything else to have been examined or the clinical or social sciences. A strong spiritual life is more

protective against addiction, depression, and suicidality than anything else to have been examined in the clinical sciences. There's no question that if we want one thing for ourselves and one thing for our kids, it's to strengthen the deep inborn spiritual core. We can strengthen our spiritual core in religion. Many people do, about two-thirds of us. We can strengthen our spiritual core in religion. Many people do, about two thirds of us. We can strengthen the spiritual core outside of religion in nature. You know, you've talked a lot in your book, The Awakened Brain,

how your innate spiritual nature vibrates at the frequency of the Earth's core. What does that mean? When we recover from despair through spiritual awakening, our brain tends to give off a very specific wavelength. You can measure it? We measure it with an EEG cap, and it is called high amplitude alpha. High amplitude alpha. Now, we talked about how two-thirds of depressions are actually spiritual hunger for more, for meaning. So two thirds of depression are spiritual hunger. Two thirds of depressions are spiritual hunger.

The yearning for more, the existential empty bucket, the sense that there's somehow I'm not enough actually is the not enoughness of how I'm being in the world, what I'm feeling in the world. It's not that I'm not big enough or rich enough or doing enough, the not enoughness is a sense that there's a deeper, fuller way of being and connecting to the force of life.

It could be that we are built to move through phases of despair so that we can deepen our spiritual awareness and connect more profoundly to the nature of life. And that the spiritual awareness is there to help us move through those stages of life where life is hard. Yes, we are built for tragedy and despair because we are built with a spiritual way

of seeing and knowing. There's nothing that can break us because there is absolutely nothing that is more powerful than our direct spiritual connection to the deeper nature of life. That is such an encouraging thing to believe. Well, I don't believe it. I see it through the evidence of science. Even better. I don't have to believe it because science is proving. Science has proven that there is nothing as protective against deep depression than a strong spiritual life.

And there's nothing as curative in the path of trauma and addiction as in learning to hand it over to be in the transcendent relationship. If the person is listening right now, because I know that this is going to be one of those conversations that people are sharing with so many people in their lives. So this might be someone who is listening and spending time with us right now. And it's the first time they've really considered this, even though I agree with you. I agree with you that we are wired this way. And if we are wired this way, I do think that everybody has an experience in their life

where they feel called to want something deeper. Yes. You know, you want a deeper sense of purpose and meaning in your life. Yes. That that is this quest that we're on and that we're all on it, whether we're present to it or not.

But if somebody is listening and they're like, I wanna feel exactly, but I don't even know what she's talking, like how would you start? I guess you already have if you've listened to this, this far. Yes, because curiosity is the force talking through you. If you're curious, if you're hungry, if you wonder, if you don't want to just kick it aside because you sense you might have short-circuited something in your own life, then that may

just be the force moving through you. I invite your curiosity. Science does not say that the people who have all the answers are healthier and less depressed. Science says that the people on a spiritual quest are happier, less depressed, healthier, and have more deep running committed relationships, more purpose and meaning in their life. We don't need to have the answers, but we are built. In fact, it's a human imperative to be seekers and on a spiritual journey. If the person listening takes just one action out of everything that you have poured into proven, taught, and awakened in us. What is the most important thing for them to do?

No, your deep inner experience of love is the double door to the sacred reality. Dr. Lisa Miller, what are your parting words? You are on a spiritual journey. My hope for you is not that you get what you wanted, but that you discover what the universe has in store for you. Ooh, that is so good. That is so good.

Oh my God, I hope that too. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For everything you do. Thank you for being here. Thank you for inviting us to really lean in and be curious and embrace what you're teaching.

I am so excited to see how this conversation sends ripples throughout the world, reaching people that you and I may never meet, but we already know. What a joy to be with you, Mel. Thank you for who you are and what you put in our world. Thank you. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time and making the time to listen to something that will absolutely change your life. And what an extraordinary gift it is to have an invitation and a roadmap to be able to awaken your brain and tap into the forces of life

and nature and existence and why you're here. I am so excited for you. I can't wait to hear what happens. I'm excited for the people that you share this with, But mostly I'm just grateful that you took the time to be curious about this and to really take this invitation on. In case no one else tells you, I'm gonna tell you that I love you. And I love you for listening to this. I love you for being here.

I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And boy, I'm convinced that tapping into this innate spirituality is the way to do it. Alrighty. I'll talk to you in a few days. I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you play. I'll see you there. Are we ready to roll? Magnificent. Okay. All right. We're ready.

We are ready. Oh my God. You're the best. Thank you. And so the next question I wanted to ask you is this. Okay. Another one? Okay.

No, I'm just kidding. Amazing. All right, Trace. What's next? Did we get it? Yeah. So Dr. Miller, I... So Dr. Miller, the next thing I wanted to ask you.

So Dr. Miller, my next question is... Oh wait, you don't want me to do that? Okay. Great. Okay. Great. Great. Okay.

Wow. Holy shit, woman. Thank you. Thank you, Mel. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.

This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

Sticher.