The Mel Robbins Podcast - What I Wish I Knew in My 20s

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

This is a conversation you need to hear, packed with life advice that will change your future. It’s what Mel wishes she knew in her 20s and the insight helping her guide her kids right now. Today, Mel sits down with Dr. Meg Jay. Dr. Jay is a clinical psychologist, professor, and bestselling author of THE book about your 20s: The Defining Decade. The New York Times called Dr. Jay "the patron saint" of 20-somethings, and today, you’re getting a coaching session with her. This episode is a wake up call, one backed byresearch and real-life stories, that will help you stop panicking, start problem-solving, and take control of your future, no matter what age you are. In this episode, you’ll learn: -The best advice no one ever told you about your 20s -The biggest mistakes most people make in work and love—and how to avoid them -Why 30 is not the new 20—and what’s actually at stake when you wait to “figure it out later” -Exactly what to do to support any 20 something in your life -Specific advice for college students and parents of college students Whether you’re in your 20s, wish you’d done them differently, or love someone going through them, this episode gives you the wisdom and tools you need to build the life you want. The truth is that no matter what decade of your life you are in, you can make it the best one – and this advice will help you do it. For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, check out this one next: Feeling Lost in Your 20s? You Need to Hear ThisConnect with Mel:  Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel’s personal letter Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-freeDisclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited about the extraordinary expert that you and I are going to learn from today. Dr. Meg Jay is here in our Boston studios. Now, Dr. Jay wrote the seminal book on what is the hardest decade of everyone's life, which is your 20s. And today, you're going to get the most important advice about your 20s that no one has ever. told you. So if you're in your 20s and you're listening right now, I am so thrilled that you're here because this is exactly what you need to hear right now. It's going to help so much. You probably thought your 20s were going to be amazing. So did I. But instead, you can't find a job you like.

You're scared that you're not going to be able to pay for the things that you want or to meet somebody. And in between crying alone in your bedroom or being ghosted by people or never seeing your friends, you just feel lost. Well, Dr. Jay is here to fix that. Or if you're like me and you have people in your 20s who you love. For example, my husband and I, we have three kids in their 20s, or maybe you have nieces or nephews, or friends in their 20s who are struggling with uncertainty, and you don't know how to motivate or support them. Well, Dr. Jay knows how to, and she's here for you. And she has some really great news. After two decades of studying and working exclusively with people in their 20s, she's going to tell you what actually matters in your 20s, how to avoid the

biggest mistakes that people make and exactly what to do right now if you feel lost or behind. Dr. Jay is also a professor at the University of Virginia, and she's going to tell you the five things every college student does wrong and the things their parents do wrong, too. She's also going to tell you what to do to make it right. I can't wait for you to listen. I can't wait for you to learn and to share this with everyone that you know. Because based on the data, Every person in their 20s is in the most difficult decade of their life, whether they show it on social media or not. But Dr. Jay also says, with some very simple steps, you can make it one of the most positive and defining decades, too. These are the truths I wish somebody would share with me, and I can't wait to share them with every 20-something in my life.

Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. It's always such an honor to be together and spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or if you're here because somebody shared this with you, I want to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. And in particular, if you're in your 20s, I am so excited for you. Thank you for listening to this. I wish I had known what you're about to hear when I was in my 20s. I mean, this is the exact advice. I wish someone had told me. And I can't wait to send this to all my kids in their 20s and my nieces and nephews and for my friends to send it to the people in their 20s in their lives because the amazing Dr. Meg Jay is here in our Boston studios. Now, Dr. Jay is a clinical psychologist at the University of Virginia. She also holds a PhD in clinical psychology from UC Berkeley. The New York Times calls Dr. Jay the patron saint for 20-somethings because she wrote the seminal and generational defining book about the hardest decade of everyone's life, which is your 20s. That book is called The Defining Decade, and her new book is the 20-something treatment. Dr. Jay has spent the last two decades

in clinical practice working with people in their 20s and teaching as a professor at the University of Virginia. Her TED talk, Y30, is not the new 20, has been viewed more than 17 million times. And today, she is here to share the advice you have never heard about your 20s. how to navigate them, how to conquer them, and how to make them count. So please help me welcome Dr. Meg J to the Mel Robbins podcast. Dr. Meg J, I am so excited to welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Well, I know that our conversation is going to be one that is spread all around the world, but I have to say, selfishly, I have three kids in their 20s. So this is for you. Yes. It's us. And your listener. Yes. And for you, you're here with us on

YouTube or you are spending time with us right now listening. This is for you as well. Whether you're listening and you're in your 20s or there are people in your life that you care about are. You wrote the defining book. And that's the perfect word for it. Because over a decade ago, you wrote this book, The Defining Decade, Why Your 20s Matter and how to make the most of them now. And we're going to dig into that and your new book, The 20-something Treatment, a Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age. But here's where I'd like to start. I would love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now.

And tell them what they could experience about life that would be different. If they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us and they put it to use in their life or share it with somebody that they love. Okay. What will be different is they'll be able to make the most of the decade in front of them, no matter what that decade is. It's never too early to live intentionally and courageously, but it's also never too late. You use the word intentionally. What does it mean to live intentionally? I think that means thoughtfully being true to yourself, being authentic,

thinking about the future while you're also living in the present. So figuring out what am I trying to do with my one life or with my 20s or even with my 40s or with my 50s rather than getting caught up and maybe what everyone else is doing or not paying attention and then 10 years has passed you by. I want to read a passage from your mega bestseller, The Defining Decade, your 20s matter. 80% of life's most defining moments take place by the age of 35. Your earning power is decided in your first 10 years of work. More than half of us are married or dating or living with our future partner by the age of 30. your brain and your personality change more during your 20s than at any time before or after.

Your social network is about as big as it is ever going to get. Your defining decade coincides with your peak childbearing years. Meanwhile, your 20s are the most uncertain years you will ever know. Why do you think so many people are freaked out by those statistics and they don't want to talk about it? Because that's not your opinion. Those are the facts. Right. Those are the facts.

definitely not my opinion. You know, I think it comes from a couple of different places. Culturally, we idealize youth. So we say, oh, your 20s, these are going to be the best years of your life, empirically not true. We'll talk more about that. We say, oh, your 20s, these are going to be the most carefree years of your life, empirically not true. We'll talk more about that. The truth is your 20s are the most defining decade of adulthood and also in many ways the most difficult decade in adulthood. The reason for that is it's a time of a lot of firsts and a lot of worsts. You have your first and worst job, your first and worst relationships, your first and worst breakups. It's a very, very tricky time. And I think older adults often look

at 20-somethings and they think, oh, they don't have partners or houses or mortgages or kids. You know, what do they have to feel so stressed out about? But I think what they don't realize is that it's stressful not to have those things, and even more importantly, not to know if you ever will. Oh, my gosh. As a parent, you just made me feel sad. Aw, it's hard. It's hard to be a 20-something, yeah. Well, because I have been guilty of saying, well, you don't have kids. You know what? You can figure it out. You can try anything. The world's your oyster. Go do what you want. Like, what do you all worked up about? Like, yeah, da-da-da-da-da-da. But I'd never really stopped to think about the fear that you might not have those things that you wanted or you might not be able to

figure it out. Right. I've had so many clients and students over the years say if I knew it was I was going to have it all eventually, I could get through this time. I don't need it now, but if I knew I was going to have it, I could get through this time so much easier. And of course, we can't see into the future. We just have to create the future as best as we can. You know, you've also said that the reason why it's so important to recognize that your 20s are your defining decade is because you've spent countless hours with 30 and 40-somethings who are devastated by the price they're paying for the lack of direction, the lack of urgency to use one of your words, in their 20s. So what do you want to say to someone who is in their 20s and who's saying, well, I'll just

figure this out later. I don't figure this out right now. I got plenty of time. You know, I think the first thing I would actually not say, it would be a question I would ask, what are they waiting for? That I think 20-somethings feel like they're. have time to figure it out without maybe fully understanding it takes time to figure it out. So the sooner you start that process, the better. If you try to start figuring everything out in your 30s, you're probably going to be pretty crunched for time. You may not get everything you want. I don't want that to happen, which is why in the defining decade, I don't say you have to have it all figured out by 30. I say, please start figuring it out by 30. I love that distinction.

the distinction of, oh, you know, I have time to figure it out versus it takes time to figure it out. And so when you're talking to somebody in their 20s, how do you counsel somebody who is freaking out about the fact that they don't have it all figured out? And now I start to feel anxious that I don't have it figured out. Now I'm paralyzed by that. And so when somebody feels paralyzed, they don't do anything, which means they're not figuring it out. So how do you counsel somebody to flip from that state of kind of paralysis to it takes time to figure it out? And my point is you need to start getting serious about figuring it out. Well, we start.

We start with something. I think one thing where people go wrong with 20-somethings is that I think they think reassurance and saying it's fine. You've got all the time in the world you'll figure it out. Reassurance doesn't actually make people feel better. Or it makes them feel better for about an hour. or a day, and then they come back for more. We call clients or 20-somethings like this. People like this reassurance junkies. Reassurance junkies? They're anxious. They get a little hit of reassurance. They feel better for a minute, but then they have to come back for more because reassurance is, it's empty.

Instead of saying, oh, it's fine. It doesn't matter. You'll be fine. I say, hey, I'm taking your concerns seriously. So what are we going to do? What are you going to do? Where can you start? Let's start now. That that actually, makes people feel better than telling them they'll be fine, is saying, well, let's make sure you're fine. Let's do something about it. You said that the 20s are such an uncertain and difficult decade because it's full of firsts and worst.

And I'd love to have you speak just a little bit to what are some of the things that 20-somethings feel a lot of anxiety about that might surprise somebody who's not in their 20s to hear... causes anxiety in that decade of first and worst. Yeah. I mean, I think really to understand what is so difficult about the 20s is that it's the most uncertain time of life. So it's probably the only time in your life where everything is uncertain all at the same time. So work is uncertain, love is uncertain, finances are uncertain, the brain is still developing, emotional stability is still coming together. So, you know, I think most of us in 30s or 40s or 50s, maybe we have, you know,

work goes sideways or romance is blowing up. But for 20-somethings, everything is uncertain at once. The brain really hates that. The brain interprets uncertainty as danger. So 20-somethings are walking around in a pretty low-level state of sort of chronic stress and anxiety around. Everything feels dangerous because they don't have those adult sources of safety. So they may feel anxious about I don't know how to talk to my roommate. So I'm sending them texts instead of saying, hey, can we have a conversation? Or a big one is, I don't know how to talk to my boss and ask for this weekend off that I need for my sister's wedding. Or I don't know how to go on a date. I've never kissed anybody before. I've never had sex. I'm worried I'll never be able to pay my bills.

They're feeling anxious and worried about just about everything that's uncertain. Well, what's interesting is if you've had a child that has gone off to college or gone into the military or gone to a trade school, especially if they leave home, there's this assumption that they're maturing and they're gaining those skills and that by the time they get out of college or trade school or the military, okay, they got it all figured out. And what you're making me realize is, wait a minute, those are life skills that you don't just stumble upon. Right. You have to have experiences or people in your life that teach you those life skills. Right. Experiences, usually. And I have to say, college is a whole other conversation. Have me back and we'll talk about that.

I have a lot of strong opinions and thoughts and feelings about college, which I love. But people get too hung up on whether to go to college, where to go to college, what to major in. The biggest question in higher education is how to go to college, how to do college. That is what is going to determine whether or not college pays out off for you is how you did it. Not whether you sort of showed up for four years and then got a piece of paper. The most important stuff in college happens between classes. It's the did you or did you not go to the college center or career center? Did you or did you not go have a conversation with your professor and get more comfortable talking to people in positions of power or learn about an internship? Well, let's talk about

What are five things that people get wrong about college that they need to be doing that make the college experience what it should be or could be? Number one, go to class. People out there, I just gave a talk at UVA orientation a couple days ago, and I said, I know all the parents out there. You assume your kids are going to class? I work at UVA. I can tell you I wouldn't be assuming that. Because with technology, it's never been more possible to not go to class, look at the slides, not look at the slides. not look at the slides, but going to class, it's just showing up for life. It's like we were talking

about with work. It adds structure to your day. You might start to kind of have a relationship with a professor or think, oh, I'm going to go visit that person in office hours. So just going to class is some very low-hanging fruit, but an amazing way to start. Another piece of advice is to make a calendar, take all your syllabi, put them all in one place. You've got, you know, all the classes, the assignments, all the readings, all the deadlines all in one place. Most students don't do that. Another one I'll mention one of the biggest predictors of whether college pays off for people, which is very important to people right now, is whether or not they had an internship in college. Because the best preparation for work is work. The best preparation for work is not showing up to a

college class in your pajamas and shopping on your laptop, which is, you know, frankly, what a lot of college students are doing. So no judgment. I'm just saying that will not prepare you for work. So the best preparation for work is work. So I want to see you as a college student having at least one internship, at least one job before you graduate. If you graduate from college and you're looking for your first job, you've done something wrong. I love this. What else? I could go on all day. No, keep going about this. What else? Like, because Because just that visual of showing up in your pajamas and shopping online, it may seem cool to your friends, but it's disrespectful to you.

Not you, the professor, but it's disrespectful to you as the student and the consumer. And if somebody else is paying for it, disrespectful to them. Right, right, absolutely. But I think a lot of kids go to college because they think they should and it's a box to check and their friends are going, and they want it to look a certain way on Instagram, and they've lost sight of what it's actually meant to do and what it could do until senior year rolls around. And, uh-oh.

I get it. I went to college myself and didn't do everything perfectly. But if that's entirely where you're coming from for the four years, you're really not going to be prepared. And, you know, I said the most wonderful thing about working with 20-somethings, they're like planes just after takeoff. very easy to help them course correct. The toughest 20-somethings to work with are the ones whose lives never took off after college so that they didn't even get the lift-off because then

you're you're having to create that. Well, in your new bestselling book, the 20-something treatment, I'm reading on page 76, you say, let's clear something up. Contrary to what popular culture and social media may suggest, your 20s are probably not going to be the best years of your life, at least not emotionally. These may or may not be the years when you look your best, but they are unlikely to be the years when you feel your best. In fact, statistically speaking, your 20s are likely to be the years when you will feel your worst. That's right. It's funny, I've been working with 20-somethings for 25 years. And again and again, when people say, what do you specialize in? And I say 20-somethings, they say, why would you do that?

Just sort of imagining they couldn't possibly have any problems, but it's actually they are, I'm sorry to say, the mental health low point of life, which is why I've been working with this age group for two decades, because it is the most challenging time from a mental health perspective for all the reasons we just talked about. It's also a time which we'll get to where you can feel better pretty quickly. And a little bit of advice goes a long way.

So, you know, it's up from here. Well, I can't wait to get into how we move from panicking in your 20s to problem solving and how those of us that have 20-somethings in our life can be more of a support system in moving to problem solving. But I do want to read a little bit more from the 20-something treatment. This is page 110. And the reason why I love this section of the book is because you helped me to really drop into sort of that quiet psychological state of worry that a 20-something has that you're aware of because you've been in clinical practice focused on this age group for decades,

and you're a professor at UVA who is teaching students this age. But I found this really interesting. Young adults are the loneliest people in the United States. These are the sort of things that I hear every day from 20-somethings. I don't really feel like I have a group that I belong to. I'd like to delete the Snapchaps for my old friends who haven't been great to me, but then there would be nothing on my phone. I don't know how to get close to people.

There's not a handbook for that. One of my best friends ghosted me and the other one found a boyfriend. I don't know how to take friendships to the next level. I lost interest in my social life because I'm embarrassed. going anywhere at work. I just feel like I have no one to turn to when I need something or when I have a hard day. I don't know a single person in my life. Life in my 20s is hard in all sorts of ways. I feel like what I really need is a friend. That's really sad. Many people are surprised because when we think about the 20s, we think about people at music festivals and they're partying

and they're at raves and they're going on trips to Abiza. And that's maybe what it looks at looks like on social media. But yes, empirically, your 20s tend to be the loneliest years of life because you left, you know, you grew up in a home with some family of some form. Yep. And you may be statistically speaking or headed toward your own family that you're going to create in the future. But you're between families. You're often between friends. You're often between relationships as people move around. So it really is the loneliest time of life. One of the other problems I wanted to just touch on before we jump into what we can do and the good news here is that I hear from the 20-somethings in my life, particularly two of our kids, that they feel a little, whether the word is deceived or disappointed or confused by what they thought their 20s was going to be like and what it's actually like, that instead of having fun and traveling and figuring out their purpose and going to new cities, that instead the reality is

they're at a job that they don't like. They're in the bathroom crying because they don't know how to deal with stress at work. They're getting ghosted nonstop by the dating apps. They never see their friends. They have no idea where their life is going. They're terrified about their money and the lack of money that they have and how expensive everything is. Where do you think this disconnect comes from? And is this a very common thing that you're seeing with 20-somethings? Oh, absolutely. I would say that's the main disconnect is that people think, you know, maybe because of social media, also because culturally we idealize youth and say, oh, it's so fun and great and easy to be young. When really, we could talk about this later, but I think it's more fun and great to be

older. But, you know, back to what you said, empirically speaking, your 20s are probably not going to be the best years of your life. When I have a client crying in my office saying, I thought the 20s were going to be the best years of my life, you know, I said, if the 20s turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong, that what you want to do in your 20s is put the work in so that life keeps getting better across your 30s and your 40s and your 50s. And every study done shows that on average, life gets better across every decade of adulthood. I want that person that I'm working with to be one of those people where they feel more confident, more competent, their relationships are better, their career is better, their partnership

is better, they have kids if they want them, they're experiencing, you know, the joys and the struggles of that, they're finding their purpose, that there's really a lot to look forward to in your 20s, but even more so beyond. And that's just sort of the opposite of what people hear. you know, not only do they hear 30's the new 20, they also kind of hear, ugh, life is over when you're 30. There's nothing good after that. When in fact, I have to tell you, Mel, I've been doing this for 25 years. I have never heard from an old student or client who said, gosh, I wish I was back in my 20s. They all reach out and say life is so much better in my 30s or in my 40s. You know, 20s were the worst decade of my life. I will literally have talked about it a lot.

I do not like the person that I was, I was going through a lot of what you're talking about and never would have been, that's totally normal. That's a sign that you're doing your 20s correctly? You're on track, yes. I would love to kind of break down each area of life and career and love that you see 20-something struggling with in your practice and that you've seen in the research. And I want to read to you from your best-selling book, Defining Decade, The world of work has officially been disrupted, which means there are more choices but more confusion, too. Because short-term work has replaced long-term careers, the average 20-something will have about a handful of jobs in their 20s alone. Young adults are more educated and engaged

than ever before, but dishearteningly. Their first jobs out of school may not even require a college degree. Other entry-level jobs have gone overseas, making it difficult for some young adults to gain a foothold at home. For those who can swing it, an unpaid internship is the new starter job. And at any given time, about half of 20-somethings are unemployed or under-employed. Wow. Wow. And we didn't even talk about student debt. No, right. And we didn't even talk about the fact that we are now in a hybrid work and a remote work environment. The reality is brutal. How are you supposed to build a successful career coming out of school and having no work experience in your 20s? You build it one good piece of identity capital at a time. So identity capital, it's actually a really fabulous and flexible concept.

It's not mine. I'm the middleman teaching people about it. But it's really about doing things that add value to who you are. So maybe you get the best job that you can, even if it's not a great job. You go for the advantage. degree, you get the certifications or the skills that you can build on, that on average, actually young adults will have nine different jobs by the age of 35, and most will ultimately wind up in careers and often be successful in careers that they had never heard of when they were in college and that didn't even exist when they were in college. So gone are the days when you need to be thinking at 24, who am I going to be forever? You can't predict it. You don't know it. But if you're just going one good job at a time, one good piece of identity capital

at a time, then that builds over time. And you continue to build on it. I mean, you and I are really probably both great examples of how we had lots of different pieces of identity capital in our 20s and our 30s. And now we're doing things with it that we could have never foreseen. But it's just getting out there and doing things that add value, that are investments in yourself, skills, that you can take into the workplace that lead to other skills that lead to other skills that lead to other opportunities. Can you give the person listening a few examples of what identity capital might be? Because I think, you know, when you're in it and you've got that job and you're working

at a coffee shop, or you're a hostess, even though you were an economics major, or you're facing a brutal kind of environment in terms of hiring, and you're just sending resumes and nothing is clicking and you're not quite sure what to do. What does and what can identity capital opportunities look like as a 20-year-old? I mean, the great thing about identity capital is it can be a lot of things, depending on who you're trying to be or who you think you might be trying to be. So obviously, college degree, that's a piece of identity capital. Any internship or job you have, even if it's not a great job, you have to be learning something. It has to be adding value to you somehow. Now, if you're a barista or a bartender and you don't want to keep doing that, if you want to keep doing that, awesome.

If you don't want to keep doing that, you can still be earning pieces of identity capital on the side of maybe you're getting a certification and X, Y, or Z to signal that you're trying to pivot into this industry. Maybe you're leading a community group on A, B, or C that shows your engagement with philanthropy or community. So it's really anything that shows how you've invested in yourself and what you have to offer the workplace. So identity capital is very flexible, and one piece leads to another leads to another. Is there anything that you say, Dr. J, is somebody who is currently in a job? They don't like it. They know it's not the end game. Might not even be in the industry they want to be in.

They have no idea what to do next. How do they begin to start to solve this problem? of figuring out who they want to be or what they're interested in. Okay. So to the person who has no idea, they do have some idea. They're just not aware that they have some idea because they've been on the planet for 20 or 25 years. They have thoughts and experiences, but they just often young adults haven't articulated that to themselves. So that's part of what we do together. So four questions to ask yourself when you're feeling, like, I have no idea. One is, what are you good at? Two is, what do you enjoy? Three is, what might

pay my bills? And maybe not immediately, but one day, what's going to give me the lifestyle that I think I want or need? And four is, what is the world need? And I'm going to come back to these for a minute. The reason these four are important is I, for example, I'm good at a lot of things. I don't enjoy. So part of my young adult trajectory was figuring out just because I was good at something didn't mean that I had to go do it. And actually maybe wasn't the best part of my self to be focusing on that. I'm also good at a lot. I mean, I'm also enjoy a lot of things that I'm not that good at. So those are hobbies. Those are probably not careers. They're probably not going to pay my bills. And then, you know, thinking about what the world needs is often where purpose comes from

also helps to pay your bills if the world needs what you have to offer. So really thinking about those four questions. And of course, you may not know the answer to all of them yet, but you start with what you know, you head in that direction. I mean, again, to the nine jobs by the age of 35, I tell people when you're going for a job, think of it as a one or two year commitment. Go one year at a time. And if you like what you see, you're learning a lot.

you're adding value, earning identity capital, sign up for another year. But if you're not, then it's time to pivot to something else. You know, Dr. Jay, what I love about your work is that it doesn't sugarcoat the truth, but it also doesn't shame someone for not knowing it sooner. I want to take a moment so we can hear a word from our sponsors and give you a chance as you've been listening to share this with the 20-somethings in your life because clearly they need this information and it will really help them make this decade count. Because Dr. Jay, is laying out the roadmap to make smarter moves in your life. There's going to be more with Dr. Jay in a moment.

Don't you dare go anywhere because we're going to be waiting for you after this short break. So stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today, Dr. Meg Jay is here. And we're learning the serious truth about making the most of your 20s. She's also giving you the mindset shifts that you need to start making better decisions, no matter how old you are, no matter how uncertain you may feel. You know, one of the things that you write about in the defining decade is that your lifetime earnings are determined in your 20s.

What do you mean by that? That's the data talking. I'm a very data-driven person. Data-driven help and hope is what I'm trying to help people have. So that's from the World Economic Forum and what they found, basically, is that you're learning curve in your sense. 20s predicts your earning curve in your 30s and your 40s and your 50s. So the skills that you're learning, the experiences that you're having at work, the degrees that you're getting, the jobs that you're having, that this is what sets the foundation that you have to build on in your 30s and

beyond. And so what I tell 20-somethings is put yourself on the steepest learning curve you can in your 20s. Think of it as school, but get paid to learn. I don't, you may not get paid the most you'll ever be paid in your life, but get paid to learn. Put yourself on that steep learning curve, because the learning curve slows down after the 20s, and you kind of have less to take to the marketplace to get those learning opportunities. I'd love to read a question. This one comes from a listener named Mark. Dr. J. I'm 25, and I've been working as a barista since I graduated. At first, it was just supposed to be a temporary thing, but now it's been three years. There are things I actually want to try, like architecture, graphic design or something

creative, but honestly, it feels way scary to try and hate it than to not try it all. I know I don't want to be a barista forever, but somehow doing nothing feels safer than potentially ruining these possibilities for myself. What would you say to Mark? Because I'm sure you've heard that kind of thing before. I heard that many times. I would say doing nothing isn't safer. It's actually pretty dangerous, that we know that 75% of 20-somethings who are underemployed are still underemployed a decade later. So underemployment is sticky. It's easy to get into, harder to get out of. So the nice thing about Mark is that it sounds like there's a couple of things he does. He knows he wants to try. So it would be pretty easy to move him into the 25%

who go from underemployment to employment. But he's got a couple of things he wants to check out. So he needs to get going on that. That there's, maybe it's graphic design, maybe it's architecture, those are different. So he needs to take a step toward either one of those, find something out. Maybe he finds out he doesn't like one. That's not a failure. That's information. That means, okay, well, now it's time to try the other one. This may sound like a dumb question, but how do you know if you're under-employed? That's not a dumb question. And believe me, I was definitely underemployed at times in my 20s. Technically speaking, underemployment is a job that doesn't make use of the education that you have. So when I went to University of Virginia is an undergrad, great school,

and graduated. And my first job out of college was as an outward bound instructor, which I did for five years, no apartment, lived out of a car, took people around in the wilderness for five years. Technically speaking, that was under employment. You do not. need a degree from UVA to be an outward bound instructor. However, it was amazing prep for graduate school. I knew I wanted to go to graduate school in psychology, so I was working with special populations, Vietnam vets, survivors of violence, corporate CEOs. So I learned a ton about leadership and group work and helping people get from A to B in the worst conditions. So technically, that was under employment, but it had a ton of identity capital.

So I was able to take that identity capital. When I went to go pivot to graduate school and I went around to do interviews, people said, oh, you're the outward bound girl. Tell me about outward bound. And so I think, you know, not to have a too black and white view on does this or does this immediately use my degree as much as what capital is in this for me, can I turn this into the next thing. I would like to ask you for some advice. Let's say that I'm Mark's mother. And I know that Mark is working at a coffee shop or working, you know, as a host at a restaurant.

And as the parent, my opinion is that by now, you know, this was fine for the first year, but where's the get up and go? Right. Where's my high school athlete? You know, where's my person that I know you are? What happened? It seems kind of obvious that you should be either learning. Canva or taking AI certifications or going to orientation for an architecture school.

And so I feel like it's a common experience to as the parent or the loved one or the friend to be like, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, take a class. Like, this is not rocket science. What do you want us to know about what it's actually like to be in that state where you know kind of what you need to do, but you have so much of that fear that is a normal part of being a 20-something, uncertain about everything, that it paralyzes you. How do we approach these moments? Because I think that is a very relatable and extremely common dynamic right now.

Well, there's a, I mean, joke for lack of a better word in the therapy community, which is How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? And the answer is just one, but the light bulb has to want to change. But I actually would answer it even differently. The light bulb has to need to change. And so I think sometimes 20-somethings change when they need to, that it can get painful before they change of, wow, this really isn't going to work forever. I really can't pay my bills. I really hate this a lot. That that's okay to have that experience. for Mark to have that reality of, you know, I really need to change. This isn't going to work for me. You know, I think as parents, you know, there's a lot of research around how people change. And one of the biggest pivots there is taking people from like the pre-contemplation to contemplation of I'm not even thinking about changing to I'm thinking about changing. And so people ask me, how do I get my kid to think about changing? And I say, give them something to contemplate. give them a book to read, send them a podcast to listen to, send them something you saw on Instagram, and just to start to put it in their minds that maybe there's something I need to

start thinking about here. Well, Dr. Jay, I feel like I can hear share, share, send text right now because while the data and the research around the factors that create a lot of uncertainty in this decade can be very overwhelming, you say there's a lot of good news. And you say that it is possible to cut right through the noise and to move from that paralysis that we keep hearing to like, well, let's just solve the problem. Well, right. Well, actually, that's one gripe I have with the media right now is I feel like every story is about how bad it is for 20-somethings of what's happened to them, the pandemic or recessions or unemployment that we're always talking about what has happened to them, rather than what can they do about it? That in life,

things are going to happen. And we always have to say, okay, well, what am I going to do about what's happened? We're kind of leaving it at what's happened and why it's so hard instead of saying, but you can do something. We've talked about career and work, but I would love to now shift to something every 20-something seems to be struggling with, which is dating and love. Okay. And you've said that the person that you choose to be with might be the most important decision of your life. Let's talk about that. Yeah, glad to. So we were talking about work, and one reason I talk so much about work, it's the biggest source of growth and change across adulthood. Relationships, however, especially romantic relationships, are the biggest source of happiness

and unhappiness. So if you're listening and you have a partner, you know that if you're partnered with someone, you are now in a three-legged race in life, that everything you do from where do I live, what's my job, what color are we going to paint the living room, where are we going to go on vacation, that you're now joined with another person on that. And if your relationship is going well, you're doing well, you're feeling well. And if your relationship isn't going well, you're not doing well, you're not feeling well. And, you know, it's a lot easier to change your job than it is to change your spouse. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways to create a family, but most 20-somethings I know would eventually like to find their person. And they generally

want to try to find that person one time and stick with it. And I hope they do. You've also said, Dr. Jay, that dating apps are not the problem. So what do you think is wrong about the way the average person, particularly in their 20s, thinks about dating? You know, I think a lot of people are using dating apps similarly to how they're using job boards and that people will say, I'm looking so hard for a job. I am on job boards 20 or 30 hours a week. And so I would like that person to maybe take a more targeted intentional approach to looking for a job by reaching out to weak ties or, you know, we could talk about that in a minute. But similarly to dating, I'll say, are you doing anything about your love life? You said you were lonely. You said you wanted someone. I am. I am on the

apps, five, 10, 15 hours a week. I'm on. I'm having conversations. I'm sending messages. And I feel like people are using apps to say, look, I'm doing something. I would rather see that person's been three to five hours a week, going out, doing something they enjoy, hanging out with people that they like, getting involved in a cause that they believe in, and kind of be a little bit more targeted and intentional rather than, oh, I'm scrolling, I'm surfing, I'm swiping, I'm on it. it's often not that productive. Well, it's true.

It's a way to, like, say, I'm doing it. It's sort of like, you know, in college where you could go to a particular place in the library to be social, but say you're studying? Or not. Versus you go to a different spot when you actually need to get the studying done. Right, right. Exactly. And, you know, I definitely have had many clients, many 20-somethings who have found their person on dating apps, but they tend to be approaching it in an intentional way,

not, you know, I'm surfing, I'm scrolling, I'm swiping and messaging. They tend to sort of know what they want and they're not afraid to go out there and look forward or ask for it, whether that's in person or on an app. I want to read from page 207 in your best-selling book, The Defining Decade.

Being single while you're young may be glorified in the press, but staying single across the 20s does not typically feel good. A study that tracked men and women from their early 20s to their later 20s found that of those who remain single, who dated or hooked up but avoided commitment, 80% were dissatisfied with their dating lives. And only 10% didn't wish they had a partner. So 90% of people wish they had a partner. Being chronically uncoupled may be especially detrimental to men as those who remained single throughout their 20s. experienced a significant dip in their self-esteem near 30. What does this passage tell you, Dr. Jay?

Dating is important and scary. So I think a lot of people postpone dating because going back to that uncertainty, it's scary, it's anxiety-provoking, it's very uncertain, and it's not mandatory. So most 20-somethings have got to get a job. They have got to get a roof over their heads. They've got to buy groceries. But dating, they can sort of keep kicking the can down the road. And so a lot of people, young men especially, will say, well, I'm going to get work totally

figured out, and then I'm going to start thinking about dating. Life is really rarely that linear. And, you know, work doesn't get, quote, totally figured out until easily 30s. And I think if you start looking for a partner, haven't had any experience in that in your 20s, you've really lost opportunities to learn something about what kind of relationships work for me, what kind of relationships don't. You know, we talked about nine jobs by the age of 35. I don't know if you'll have nine different relationships, but you'll probably have more than one or, you know, likely have more than one. And so really to use them in the same way of

what works, what doesn't, what am I learning? And when you see something isn't working, it's time to move on. Dr. Jay, you've also said that when you pick your partner, you're picking your new family. Why is that mindset so important? This is such an important reframe. So we grow up hearing the saying, you can't pick your family, but you can pick your friends. You've heard that. Yeah, of course. Everybody grows up. Friends are the family you choose, right? So everybody sort of grows up hearing that. But then when you're in your 20s and beyond, suddenly you do pick your family when you partner with someone and create a family of your own. So to realize you're not the recipient of a family anymore, you're the agent, you're choosing. And this is particular,

I mean, this is important for every 20-something. From my heart, It's especially important for those 20-somethings who grew up without unhappy families. A lot of young adults say happy families are for other people. Other people had happy families. I don't get to have that. And the great thing about working with 20-somethings like this is you do get to have that. We get to reboot this. You can go pick that, create that for yourself.

How do you create a happy family if you grew up in a family that wasn't happy? Oftentimes people who grew up with adversity are the most motivated. to have happy families, the most clear on how important this is and what they want and what they don't want. And so oftentimes, a really powerful piece of work with a 20-something is to get shift to them from, you get to do it differently. You actually know what's really important, what to be careful about. Some of the best parents and partners that I have worked with or have seen came from unhappy families because they're so motivated to do this right and to do it right for their kids, which is amazing. So you also talk about how something called perceived desirability

affects how successful you are romantically. What exactly is perceived desirability and how does it impact dating and your love life? Yeah, yeah. So perceived is desirability. That's a mouthful. But it's really how much you think people want you. Like how wanted you feel like you are. This is actually a bigger predictor of self-esteem and relationships than career success or popularity or attractiveness, it's how much you think people want you. The tough part is a 20-something or 20-year-old will come in my office and they'll say, nobody's ever wanted me before. No one ever will want me. So their perceived desirability is based on what happened with the knuckleheads in high school. So they're going off some scant and bad data. And then they take that data into college

or into their 20s and they spend 10 years making dating and mating decisions based on whether the boys in high school or the people in college wanted to be with them or not. So a big part of my work with young adults, or if you're listening in your 20s, you know, a big course correct for you can be shifting those conversations that you're having in your head about that data, about your perceived desirability. How do you do that? I'm going to give you some of the things that I've heard 20-something say, people don't find me attractive. When I go out to the bar, everybody's interested in my friends. Nobody comes up to me. Nobody wants to date me. People will hook up with me, but nobody ever wants a relationship. Everybody else has a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Why can't I

find somebody? How do you change that story that you tell yourself? Yeah. So most of those comments, what you just described, it's kind of black and white thinking or, you know, what we call catastrophic thinking. So when people are uncertain, they tend to catastrophize. They have, you know, worst-case scenario, a lot of what-ifing. What if no one ever wants me? What if no one ever chooses me? What if no one thinks I'm attractive? So I try to shift people from what if to what else.

What else could you be saying about the situation or what else could you be saying about yourself? So you haven't met anyone that's right for you yet. Or, okay, the people at this bar preferred your friend, but maybe in a different setting, they might be more interested in you. What else can you be telling yourself besides it's hopeless, you're powerless, there's nothing that you can do? Because the really wonderful thing about finding a partner, you just need one good one. You just need one match.

It's not like college where you need to get an A or a B in the majority of your classes in order to get a degree. I mean, imagine if you went to college and every class you took you could fail or get a D. And you just had to get an A or a B and won. and you'd be good. And it's, actually, that's kind of what dating is like, that you can have a lot of relationships that don't work out, a lot of people who don't want to be with you, you just need one person, you know, one right person for you to want to be with you. So you can't really take all those data points and apply them to yourself. I love the strategy of going from what if to what else. I have another question from somebody, this one's from Hannah. Dr. Jay, I'm 27 and single.

and honestly, I'm starting to get scared. It feels like everyone I'm into doesn't want to settle down, and the ones who do I'm just not into. I've spent years trying to be the cool girl, not pushing for commitment, not asking for too much, but now I'm here, still alone, and it feels like I have zero prospects. I just keep thinking, what if no one I want ever wants the same things as me? And what if by the time they do, it's too late for the life I've always pictured for myself? Is this a common experience? Very, so common that in the updated version of the defining decade, I added a chapter

called 29 conversations. And the 29 conversations are presumably 29 conversations you would have with a potential partner of, hey, do you want, do you, as a concept, do you want to get married, what about religion in your life, what about money, what about kids, what about work, with kids, all that. But really the most important person to have those 29 conversations with is yourself before you start dating or as you're dating so that you're clear on what you're looking for as you're looking, that a lot of young adults go into relationships saying, who wants me, who wants me, rather than, well, what is it that I want? And if you go in without thinking,

it's like going into a grocery store hungry, that you're hungry, but you don't know what you're looking for and suddenly you're grabbing this and you're grabbing that without really thinking about, what did I come in here for? So I would tell Hannah that we need to slow down for a minute and do the 29 conversations and figure out what is it she's even looking for. I love that. And the questions, and this is why I love this book so much, are so helpful. They're on page 149 of the defining decade. And here are some of the ones, just so you can hear it. It is a cool exercise to do this with someone else. But actually getting your own answers straight. First, absolutely.

Yes. Do I make you a better person? Are you religious? How are we going to manage our money? Do you want to have kids? What do you think of our sex life? What are my political beliefs? What kind of parent do I want to be?

How traditional are you when it comes to gender roles? How do you like to keep a house? How will we keep our relationship alive over the long run? What does your future look like? Why do you like me? I mean, even asking that of yourself, like, why do I like myself? And if you have answers, I really don't, then start there. How important is travel to you? How do you spend your free time? Have you ever cheated on a partner? So when and why? Do you think it's possible you would cheat on me? I think these questions are really important. What makes you feel loved? What do you need after a tough day? Wow, this is so cool. You know, one of the things that you talk about that is very dangerous when it comes to relationships in your 20s is sliding into a relationship.

Can you describe what that means when you are sliding into a relationship? Yeah, this is a concept. Scott Stanley, University of Denver, it's called sliding, not deciding. And it's when we sort of slide into a situation without being intentional, without really actively deciding to move from a. A to B or from B to C. And so it's very similar to under employment, which we were talking about, which can be sticky. You can slide into under employment and then get stuck there. The same thing with romantic relationships, you can sort of slide into dating down. So it's like, well, we were going out a lot, spending all the time, our time together, sleeping over at each other's places. So we

just decided to move in together. And well, we were living together and everybody started getting married. And so I guess we're probably going to have to do that next. That's what sliding sounds like. Deciding sounds really differently, which is, hey, I've been going out with this person for a while. Do we or don't we want to take it to the next level and move in together? And should we talk about that and what that means to two different people and what are our intentions there? Hey, we've been living together. How's this going or not going?

And do we want to take it to the next level again? Or do we want to say what you see is what you get and this isn't working? So, you know, it's very similar to sort of sliding into bad jobs. We can slide into bad relationships, and it's easier to slide in than it is to slide out, that you can slide into a bad relationship. You're living together. Three years go by. You've got a lease.

You've got a couch. You've got a dog. Everybody seems to have a partner, and it can be hard to say, okay, I'm going to have to get out of this. Dr. Jay, where were you when I was in my 20s, sliding all over the place? I mean, I'm kidding, but I'm not kidding. What you're sharing is life-changing. And that's why I'm going to share this with not only all three of my kids, but almost all of my female and male friends and my group chats that have kids,

because every 20-year-old needs this. This is life-changing advice. It is a lifeline. It is a resource for you. And so I personally encourage you to take a moment and send this to somebody that you deeply care about. And look, you may be great with deciding, but I bet you've got a bunch of friends who are sliding into the wrong career or sliding into the wrong relationship.

You don't have to tell them. Let Dr. Meg tell them. Send them this episode. And don't you dare go anywhere because we've just basically scratched the surface. There is so much more that she's going to share with you after this short break to stay with us. Welcome back. it's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are getting the truth about what it means to truly be in your decades from the expert, clinical psychologist, and New York Times best-selling

author, Dr. Meg J. And the truth that she's sharing is a gift, because when you know better, you can do better. And I know that this episode can save you and the people that you care about from years of stress, uncertainty, and regret. So I want to thank you for listening and for sharing, and let's jump back in. You know, I read in your book that, this sliding into a relationship where you kind of spend time together, so you slide into moving together, then you're living together, and then you slide into getting engaged, and then you get engaged, and you slide into getting married, that that represents a large number of couples that you see in their 30s and 40s who get divorced.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, that people often say, I didn't, I wasn't thoughtful, I didn't listen to myself. So the person out there who's listening, what I have to say to you, which is do the gut check. Ask yourself, what if I'm still in this situation five years from now? What if I'm still in this relationship five years from now? As I ask that question, what are the feelings that you're having? And if that feeling is, oh, my gosh, no, then I really have to ask why you're still doing it now

and how much longer you're going to spend on this. People know when they're not happy in a relationship. I don't have a magical power to see that when they don't. The person I'm sitting across the room from, you who's listening, you know if the gut check feels bad and only you can act on it. How do you know, though, if you're settling? Because if your 20s are a defining decade with a steep learning curve, it's also going to be full of starts and firsts and worsts and growth.

And there's a big difference between you being compatible with somebody versus somebody just needing to learn some life skills. Right. I often say to my daughters in particular, look, you can look at your father right now and idolize him. That is not the person I married or I met when he was 26 years old. Right. He was not a good cook. He was not particularly clean.

Right. You know, he would have rather lived in a tent than in a house. And so you're looking at the accumulation of 30 years of skill building and a partnership. and I'm not the same person. And so if you're in that zone, because I do feel that this is one of those areas where either 20-somethings over kind of... Right. Under or over, always.

Like, oh, is it got to be... Or they under. But there's so much questioning. Yes. And are you questioning the right things? Are you being realistic? So how do you know... Right, right.

if you're being too picky, or if you're actually dating down and sliding into something you're going to regret. Right. I mean, that is, you know, the $64,000 question, which a lot of people come to me with, and they want me to answer it of, oh, the algorithm says that this is sliding or this is fine. You know, I think one thing to understand about the 20s, and I saw this on your previous podcast about the 20s as well, and it's in the 20-something treatment, is questions like, who should I partner with, what kind of family should I have? There aren't right answers. There are only your answers. So a lot of people in their 20s are looking for the answer of, is this person right for me? Is this person the one? There isn't an answer. There's just a choice. And so I think just seeing what am I signing up for, how am I compatible with this person,

how am I maybe not compatible with this person? Are there things we want to change, to that? How am I going to deal with those incompatibilities? But yes, that perfect partner, that obvious answer is probably not out there. I would love to have you speak to somebody who right now is sliding. Because I know that this is going to be friends sending it to other friends. They can't tell them you're sliding, but Dr. J can. That tends to be my job. I'm sure. You know deep down this isn't right. But maybe you've been with this person for four years. They're a good person.

You're just realizing they're not your person. But that sense of, oh, my God, am I really going to go back to the drawing board? Like, am I sure there's something better out there? Like, that agony that you feel particularly, like it's one thing if the person's a jerk. Right. That's an easier breakup.

But when it's a good person, and you're scared that you're never going to find anybody that you're more compatible with, what would you say to that person who deep down does know they're sliding into something that just isn't quite right? You know, I'm thinking of a client I worked with a couple of years ago who was in a relationship. It was okay, but it just all the gut checks were saying this wasn't what she should spend her lifetime on. And she literally one day said, okay,

we're obviously going to get married. They were living together, but they weren't even engaged. She said, we're obviously going to get married, but I really think my second marriage could be a lot better. And so I said, hold on. If you're already planning or already looking forward to already anticipating needing a different partner later, we just need to do that now. And so what I would tell the listener is what my supervisor told me 30 years ago when I was learning to work with young adults is the best time to work on your marriage is before you have one. And so that is to take it very seriously around this big decision that will probably have more to do with your happiness than anything else of, and be really honest with yourself about how does this relationship feel to me?

How does it feel across the long haul? I mean, usually you know people are asking everyone else for the answer, but usually you have a sense of this. Well, it's interesting is if you're asking other people for the answer, then you might have questions, right? Yes. What does the research say about compatibility? I mean, is there something that you wish every 20-something new about what makes people compatible? You know, at the end of the day, it's really not whether you have differences from your partner, because you will. It's more of how you deal with those differences. So if you're doing the thing that therapists call, you know, treating differences as deficiencies, that's going to be toxic for your relationship. It's, oh, you like this, what is wrong with you? Or, oh, you do that, that's not

so great, just because it's different from you. So this is where your let them theory is amazing, because you just let people be different from you. So I have a client whose husband now was a fiancé, boyfriend, then fiancé, now husband really likes to go to music festivals. She's over it. She doesn't want to be doing it anymore. He's not. He likes it. And nothing terrible happens. He comes home, life goes on, and I've really had to with her say, this is just a difference. You've got to just let him do this. And maybe he'll stop in five years. Maybe he won't. But this is not a deficiency that this is something he still enjoys and you don't. I want to shift to something that a lot of people are afraid to talk about, like in their 20s in particular, reproduction and family planning.

But I love that you go there. I love to go there. Well, can you share the story of walking into your advisor's office at the age of 34. What happened in that moment and what did it teach you? Yeah. So when I was in my early 30s, I was a grad student, UC Berkeley. My dissertation advisor was a famous psychoanalyst who literally wrote the book on feminism and motherhood and how they can go together. So we're sitting in her office one day talking about probably my dissertation and she's asked, I don't know why, but she said, you know, do you want kids? And I kind of dismissively said, oh, yeah, yeah, I think so. And then she said, well, how old are you? And I said, 34. And she looked at me over her reading glasses, and I remember she kind of slapped the papers on her lap,

and she said, well, you better get on it. And I was so shocked. That seemed so politically incorrect for her to sort of come at me like that about having kids, which was so ironic because she'd written the book about feminism and motherhood. And what she was really doing in that moment was role modeling for me. Smart and ambitious women can be smart and ambitious, not just about work, but also about love and about family. And that was when I really clicked for me that feminists want families too, that having families is how you create more feminist. So I think a year and change later, I had a baby. And then not long after that, I had another one. And so I gave a talk at her retirement party probably a year or so after that. And I remember saying, you know,

I really had heard a credit not just for my career, but also for my family because she was willing to say, wait, what are you doing? You don't have all the time in the world. You're going to need to get on this. And I appreciate that. Well, I'm glad you're saying that because there is a big kind of broad brushstroke about people are having, you know, families later. and while that may be true, there is a biological reality for women, and a lot of what you write about is, yes, the decade of your 20s is the defining decade. Yes, you're going to feel the worst. You're going to be the most uncertain. You're going to have the most first experiences and worst experiences. You're doing it in a great way, and it's normal if you feel stuck and overwhelmed

and paralyzed at times. That means you're doing it correctly. And for women in particular, it is also very important to understand the realities of your biology and to get very clear with yourself about what you actually want. Absolutely. It's real, I don't have a horse in the race on whether people have kids, don't have kids. It's really about educating yourself, about your body and thinking about what do I think I want, what might I want. Another thing she asked that when we were having that conversation, I kind of pushed back. I said, oh, I think I'll only want to have one child. I was trying to end the conversation as quickly as I could. And she wouldn't let up. She said, you don't know that. And then, of course, you know, I had two children within three years. So it really is just about educating yourself, doing the gut check with yourself so that you can get what you want, not so that you need to do something that you think I think is important. What do you want the person listening to know about their reproductive future, especially if they're in their 20s that nobody's just telling them? Well, everything we just said, and I would say the other piece, and this doesn't get talked about enough, is that I think because people are having kids later. And I also, I mean, I had my kids in my 30s, so then they're done that. But as we think about how far out can I push this, maybe it could be 40, maybe it could be 42. I think the thing to understand is that having a baby is not the end, it's the beginning. And I think what you maybe don't understand until you have kids is, Hey, now that I have kids, I actually want to be around for them as long as possible. And so waiting to have kids until the last possible minute is not necessarily the win-win

that we make it out to be. I love that. That having kids is a beginning. It's not the end of something. It's the beginning of something. That's really empowering. Right. And for many people, it's the beginning of, you know, one of the most meaningful, most powerful, most important parts of life.

And we want it to go on as long as possible. possible. But for a lot of women in particular, you think, well, this is the ending of my career ascension. This is the end of ambition. This is the end of a lot of it. I will tell you, Mel, I'd be interested in your perspective. I was more productive, more ambitious, and more successful after I had kids because I was more pressed for time and because it was more important to me to succeed than when I was a single person, I was fine, you know, with my mac and cheese and my ramen noodles and whatever. But once I had kids, I was pressed for time. I was ambitious. I had purpose. I had meaning. My career exploded after I had kids.

That was my experience, too. Didn't make it easy. But 100% made me more ambitious, gave me a sense of purpose, and the time crunch thing also does make you more productive. Yeah. Let's talk about social anxiety. Okay. Because you write a lot about it, and I see a lot of people in their 20, he's talking about how they have social anxiety. What is social anxiety? What is a normal amount of angst? When do you know it's a problem? I'd love to just hear you kind of talk about what that concept is. Yeah, yeah. And if you see it as a big issue for people in their 20s. Yes and no. So social anxiety is the most commonly endorsed or most common mental health

complaint. There was actually a questionnaire that's given to students in student health centers all over the country and has a bunch of questions on it, obviously. And the most endorsed question is, I'm worried other people don't like me. So this is a normal primary concern amongst college students, young adults. I'm worried other people don't like me. But there's a difference between being worried and being clinically anxious. And so the way I talk about it with 20-somethings, or if you're listening, my question to you would be, is your social anxiety, are we talking about clinical anxiety? Are we talking about uncertainty? Are you feeling socially uncertain? I don't know if people like me. I don't know if what I said was stupid. I don't know

if I'm going to be in the club. I don't know if I'll have anyone to go out with on a Saturday night. That's social uncertainty. And I think that is more commonly than not what 20-somethings are dealing with. because remember we said, their friendships are unstable, their romantic relationships are unstable. So there's a lot of social uncertainty there. I am cautious about people jumping to diagnostic labels. There's something called the Nasebo effect, which is kind of the power of negative expectations where you hear, oh, no, I have a disorder. I'm going to have this forever. And now people really won't like me because on top of them already not liking me, I'm deficient and disordered and messed up.

And so I try not to label people with clinical problems when maybe what we're dealing with is a developmental problem. So if you're listening and you're able to be honest with yourself and say, that's me. Like, I do have social uncertainty. How do we move from the paralysis of that into problem solving? So you're not plagued with that uncertainty. Right. Well, fortunately, it doesn't really matter whether you want to call it uncertainty. to your anxiety because the treatment is the same. So experience is the treatment. Life is the best

therapist. So for the person who is feeling socially uncertain or socially anxious, the worst thing you can do is avoid and just stay in your head about that. The best thing you can do is put yourself in social situations that go well or, you know, start with people you trust, make sure you're showing up for your job, make sure you're having those difficult conversations. And then you start to have a little bit more social certainty or more social confidence. And to remember that most people are not socially confident until the end of their 20s are beyond. So I'm not talking about do this for a couple of months and then, oh, you're going to be socially confident. We become socially confident when our relationships come together. We have our group. We have people we know we can rely

on. Maybe we have a partner who loves us. We start to deliver at work to have those experiences. I talk a lot in the 20-something treatment about skills over pills. And that's, you know, whether you're on medication or not or need medication or not, everybody needs skills. And so in your 20s, I mean, there's just such an explosion in terms of the social skills that you need to function at work, to make new friends in a big city. You're not all sitting in a classroom together anymore. You're really going to develop a lot of new skills. That's where the social confidence is going to come from. It's going to take a minute. You actually write about that. It's on page 46 in your best selling book, The 20-something treatment. And you're talking about medication. And you're talking about

the fact that a lot of the psychoactive drugs, which, you know, many people do have a clinical need to be on. You're not saying that's not important if you're working with a licensed medical, you know, expert. Provider, sure. Provider. And sometimes those prescriptions help you access the therapy. So you're saying they may provide relief in the short run. And while some patients may fare well on them in the long run, research suggests they may worsen long run outcomes for most others. One reason for this is that medications alone don't teach us anything. Maybe they take the edge off or turn the volume down on unwanted thoughts or feelings, but they don't help us learn how to handle unwanted thoughts or feelings or prevent them in the first place.

Then once the medication is removed, our ability to cope or to manage our lives may be no better than it was before. And what I've seen over and over again, it actually becomes worse because they weren't building the skills. And so what are some of the skills that 20-somethings need to focus on building to be a functioning adult that grows throughout your lifetime and lives a good life? What are those important skills that you can't learn by reading a book in college? Right. You know, I would say one that cuts across work, love, friends, life is having difficult conversations, having conversations with new people, not the trusted few that you already know like you. So in terms of work, talking to weak ties, this is how we learn about new jobs,

learn about new opportunities, this talking to new people when you've moved to a new town and you sign, up for the walking club or the running club, this is how you make new friends, this is how you talk to someone you think you might like in a bar or at a conference, that being willing to talk to people that you don't already feel comfortable with and maybe they're different or older or in positions of power or just new, that that is the single most important skill because it branches out, it gets you out into all those areas. We've talked a lot about the reality of the defining decade in your 20s and the just number of reasons why

it is a decade of a lot of uncertainty, a lot of change, a lot of opportunity. But one of the things that you wrote about that caught my attention in the 20-something treatment is hope. And how hope is the biggest predictor of future happiness. But Dr. Jay, what gives you hope?

I mean, what do you see in the 20-somethings that you work with? even the ones that are really, really struggling, that makes you firmly believe and know that everything is going to turn out okay, even if they feel lost today. This is what I love about working with 20-some things, is that I really have development on my side. The data is on my side. So, yes, I mentioned 20s or the low point of life, sorry, mental health, low point,

and low points in lots of ways, but all the data show life gets better across the 30s, across the 40s, across the 50s. So I have that confidence and that belief. And positive expectations actually go a long way in terms of giving people belief and hope. So, you know, whether it's a college student who comes into my office or a 25-year-old or the people we've talked about or you who's listening, when people come into my office, I assume that they're going to grow and change in a positive direction. And I feel very confident that I can help them do that or they can do that. that. You can do that from listening to a podcast, reading a book. And one of the best parts of my job

is that every day I hear from students, clients, readers who say, oh my gosh, it's been five years and this has happened. I get saved the dates all the time and baby announcements and new job announcements. And so, you know, I have that belief that things are going to work out, can work out. And I think that helps people. I know that helps people. It's one of the best. predictors of positive mental health. Well, what I've really learned from our conversation today is, first of all, I have a much greater level of compassion and a much greater and deeper understanding of the drivers based on the data that you've shared of why exactly this decade can be so fraught with uncertainty

and an emotional roller coaster. And I also see the mistakes I've made. of just assuming that they knew exactly what to do, assuming they knew what the problem was in the first place, assuming that the thing to do was obvious, and also offering reassurance, because I thought propping them, oh, it's going to work out, you'll be fine, you got plenty of time. And it's done the opposite.

And what I've learned now is that it's normal to feel all these things. They're very valid reasons to understand that this is exactly how you should feel. You're doing your 20s correctly if you have these moments. and that helping somebody move from feeling uncertain to solving the problems, whether the problems are in work or problems are in the right next step or problems are in how can I earn money now or problems are how can I build some skills or problems are how can I start to create some experiences for myself that help me figure out what direction to move in in my career, that these

are all things you can help somebody do. And that's really, really encouraging. You know, I'd love to have you speak to the person who's listening who's thinking, oh my God, I am not my 20s. I blew it. I did not be like, ah, ha, ha, Dr. Jay. Now I'm really screwed because I'm not in the career I want. I'm not where I want to be. I feel under everything that you're talking. I slid right into my 50s and don't even know how the hell I got here. What is your advice to the person who is feeling that regardless of the decade they're in. Yeah, I would say you're not off the hook. Everything that I've said still applies to you. So the defining decade, here's the sneaky part about it. It's really about adult development. Everything that I'm telling 20-somethings is how adulthood works in every decade. I'm just trying to

tell people as soon as possible, as early as possible in the process. And some of my favorite messages and conversations have been from 40-somethings or 50-somethings who said, I read your book for my kids and realized it was exactly the book that I needed as a 40-something. I had a 50-something woman say, you need to do a different edition of this and just change some of the words around and call it the redefining decade, that it's really all the same. That, okay, you're further on your journey, but you're flying your plane. You can still course correct. I mean, we're all just, you know, starting from where we are every single day at every age and all the same advice applies. If the person listening takes just one action today from everything that you've shared, what do you think the most important thing to do is?

Have the courage to imagine your life going well, that I think 20-somethings, and all of us at every age spend a lot of time with, what if it doesn't this, what if it doesn't that, when we spend all our time doing that, which is kind of convenient because if you have the courage to imagine your life going well, you're going to see some things. that means something about what you need to be doing today to get there. And so that's what I often have people do is have the courage to imagine a life going well. What does that mean you need to be doing today? I think all this what if my life doesn't go well is in some ways avoidance and distraction over imagining what it is you actually, what your hopes and dreams really are. Fantastic. Fantastic piece of advice.

I think that might be one of my most favorite things anybody said on this podcast. Thank you. Have the courage to imagine your life going well. Dr. Meg Jay, what are your parting words? My parting words similarly are take care of the minutes and the years will take care of themselves. That's just a very wise proverb. And it's really about when we're being intentional, we're being courageous today, our tomorrows are going to be just fine. Wow. Well, I have so thoroughly enjoyed the minutes where you took care of us today, Dr. Jay, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here in our Boston studios. Thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for sharing everything that you shared today. You certainly have made me a better parent and I feel better equipped to help my 20-somethings navigate this decade. And I also see how it all applies to redefine.

finding myself in all the decades to come. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. The pleasure was mine. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that is going to help you and the people that you care about in their 20s to create a better life. I learned so much. I'm sure you did too. I cannot wait to hear how it helps you, how it helps the people that you care about. So thank you for being here. And one more thing, in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you. you, that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life no matter what decade you're in. I hope you take the steps to make it one of the best

and most defining decades of your life. All righty, I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. All right, Trace, ready? Okay, good. Here we go. Yes. Okay, that would be great. No, no, I'm okay. No, no, I'll slow down once we're actually, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Do you want me to wait a beat? You're not picking it up?

Okay, great, because that was a really good piece. See how close it is. I might run to the bathroom if it's right. Whatever Tracy says. I literally, she's like, Mel, like, okay, Tracy. Excuse me. Sure. After two decades of studying and working exclusively with 20-somethings,

20-somethings, was that what you say? people in their 20s. Oh, thank you. Can we just read, just read all those out? I can't, you know what I'll do? Actually, you know what? I actually think that we will do that. I am learning so much for you today.

I cannot watch. You like that, guys? Okay, great. Great job, honey. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely

for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Thank you.