The Menstruality Podcast - 154. From PMDD to Power and Ending Menstrual Suffering (Kate Shepherd Cohen)

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

For many of us, the inner autumn can be a provocative, messy and painful part of the menstrual cycle, where old traumas and wounds can surface, and for some this becomes deeply debilitating and disruptive. Our guest today, Menstrual Cycle Support founder Kate Shepherd Cohen, shares generously about her personal experience of PMDD (Pre-Menstrual Dysphoric Disorder) and how menstrual cycle awareness gave her the skills to manage the fear, rage and meaninglessness that can arise in the premenstruum, so she could find the power within them.This is part-two of my conversation with Kate who is a graduate of our Menstruality Leadership Programme and the founder of a ground-breaking programme which is bringing menstrual cycle awareness to thousands of people on social prescription via the NHS. We explore:PMDD as a signal of our power awakening.Approaches to support ourselves through challenging premenstrual times, including how rest at menstruation is key to accessing our premenstrual power and the importance of practicing the art of ‘holding the tension’.  How Kate redirected her rage into her calling to change the world and end the injustice of menstrual suffering for all (and the interesting nudges she is receiving from her calling these days). ---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardyKate Shepherd Cohen: @menstrualcyclesupport - https://www.instagram.com/menstrualcyclesupport/

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hi there. Thank you so, so much for joining us today. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are in the terrain of the inner autumn, the pre-menstrual phase of the menstrual cycle,

which for many of us can be a provocative time, messy and painful, a time where old traumas and wounds can surface and for some this becomes deeply debilitating and disruptive and our guest today, menstrual cycle support founder Kate Shepard-Cohen, shares so generously about her personal experience of PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder and how menstrual cycle awareness gave her the skills to manage the fear the rage the sense of meaninglessness that can arise in the premenstruum so that she could find the power within these experiences so this is part two of my conversation with Kate who is a graduate of our menstruality leadership program and the founder of this groundbreaking course which is bringing menstrual cycle awareness to thousands of people through social prescription via the NHS

here in the UK. It's tremendous. There's so much permission and relief in this tender and heartwarming conversation. I particularly loved how Kate explored PMDD as a signal of our power awakening and her moment of tender premenstrual insight on the sofa, which is one that I imagine you'll be able to relate to, I definitely could. So thanks for being with us today and let's get started with From PMDD to Power and Ending Menstrual Suffering with Kate Shepard-Cohen. Oh, hi, Kate. It's wonderful to be back with you. It's lovely, lovely, lovely to be with you today. Yeah, it's so good to be back. Thank you for inviting me to come back and have another deep dive conversation. Yeah, see where we are two years on from the initial conversation we had before we get into that though it would be good to hear great to hear how you are I think you're on day

23 how's that feeling for you today yeah so today I am day 23 so it it really couldn't be better timed to have a conversation about PMDD and power and suffering. And I am, where am I? I'm really noticing the shift and a change in my body in this place in this in the autumn place it almost uh it almost feels like a hollowing out of my body or like as though my body is beginning to show there's almost like holes and um and in and in that feeling there's i can feel lots of old wounds just sort of becoming more noticeable um metaphorically speaking and and and it's quite there's you know it's like holding a sense of a little bit of panic there of you know that there's something happening here my ego definitely is beginning to dissolve and um just really staying present to that holding the tension of that and it's not it's not easy it's not easy oh no ego dissolution it's never easy no yeah how how beautiful well firstly to feel the depth

that you go to in yourself when you do a check-in you know I could watch you journey inside it's very moving and it takes me more inside myself and maybe our listeners could also pause for a moment and follow Kate's impulse and just check in you know how are you doing cyclically what day you want if you're tracking your menstrual cycle um with whatever cycles you're tracking in your life how is it impacting you it's uh it's such a profound practice and particularly in the premenstrual when the ego is well often kicking and screaming in the face of the coming dissolution it's not easy I'm I'm at the apex of the ego in my cycle I am I'm on day 15 and something's changing where I'm not able to track when I'm ovulating anymore I used to have a pain and I haven't had it for the past few months

which is I guess is good but it was helpful in terms of me understanding what was happening in my body so all I know is I'm full of energy and I'm very outer focused and my body's starting to show me that it's too much so we might be about to turn into into autumn but yeah just the impulse to go go go and do do do is is very strong in me in this inner summer place yeah so you know in our first conversation which I really want to recommend that people listen to along with this it was episode 11 so two years ago this is going to be episode 140 150 something so that was called how menstrualism can birth social and environmental change it was an epic conversation and we looked at how yeah your journey through menstrual suffering how it awakened this calling to end

this suffering for everyone and then what you've done with that calling, creating menstrual cycle support, how it became the first program of this type to be rolled out through the NHS, which is hugely groundbreaking. Your TED talk, which was called period. Period problems and why there's hope. Yes. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. And this, this movement, menstrualism, this social movement, this cultural trend, cultural evolution of feminism, I think you called it. So please do go back and listen to that. It's a fantastic conversation.

And today we're going to check in about how is menstrual cycle support going you've just done your first impact report i can't wait to hear about it um and i would also because of the depth of your practice kate i'd also really like to unearth more of your menstruality wisdom that we really looked at your menstrual visionary explorations last time and today as you mentioned PMDD power we're going to look more at the premenstruum so wonderfully you're on day 23 yeah so on your website your personal website you have this section called courageous gratitude and one of the courageous gratitudes that you share is for surviving and for my years of PMDD and PTSD that followed. And I wonder if you could walk us into that time and perhaps through the lens of menstrual cycle awareness and how it supported you through that.

You know, I think if I just come back into where I am today and my day 23 and how I just described the experience of it. And it just leads me into a huge sense of compassion for my younger self. Because the feeling I'm having right now today is really scary. It's a scary feeling. It's very unsettling. And it is dysphoria. It is dysphoric. It is a feeling of unease in myself, which is very different actually to day 14 or 15. And I don't know if this is where you are, but if we think about the word euphoria, this is sort of an intense feeling of happiness and self-confidence and yeah, and I'm not feeling those things. And so I have a real sense of compassion when I look back at my younger self, because I had no language. I had no guidance in myself, no support around me to be able to say,

let's just sit with this feeling. It's okay. Hold the tension. You know, this feeling of hollowing, I think I described it as hollow, like hollowing out. I had it last night, actually. And nighttime is where it just really comes into, you know, everything sort of lights up for me. There's no distractions anymore, of course. So I had it last night and that hollowing feeling just felt like there was no purpose in the world. It was nihilistic. There's no point. There's no sense to anything. And again, last night, hold the tension. I'm in my inner autumn. This emptiness that I'm feeling, the terrifying feeling of emptiness is where the light is going to come in. Hold it. Hold the tension. Without that language and without knowing that I was in my inner autumn and that this is something

that I can move through, I have the strength and capacity to move through every month, um, the world becomes an extremely unfriendly place and, um, you know, PMDD kind of rolls on, that feeling of emptiness and dysphoria rolls on. It's not just one or two days that I now have this kind of day 23, 24, 25. It becomes like almost like half of the cycle and beyond that, because it spills over this feeling of uncontrollable fear. And that's before we've even added in the rest of the world, the stress of the world, children, noise, old traumas coming to the surface. So I'm extremely grateful when you asked me that question about, you know, that journey, just to be where I am right now and so grateful to this work, to be able to name it, to name it beyond a diagnosis of PMD, beyond that, to name it as something huge, a power that

is moving through me on day 23 sometimes it's like I can feel our our audience listening I can I can feel the people listening and the sense I'm having is a profound relief for what you've named because how many of us have those hellish moments and I choose that word deliberately in in autumn where the meaning is lost and I'm also thinking of our listeners who are in the years running up to menopause and in menopause and are in an elongated phase often of meaninglessness that limbo place is um the way you contextualized it I feel relief in my body even from my robust day 15 in a summer place the yeah the relief I feel it's um huge medicine for all of us it is and again I'll go back to just and then this is so key isn't it with uh menstrual cycle awareness just coming back and we we set some intentions before this um

before the conversation um was we began recording and just you know what really came to me was just to stay present and actually this coming up again. So this description of this sort of the wounds, I think I said, coming to the surface. And I think this time in our cycle, this inner autumn phase, the premenstrual phase, they are there. They're very, these wounds, these old traumas suddenly become very present. And that's painful. It's really painful to kind of, first of all, remember, oh gosh, they're still there. And also that they can still be so affected by our own voice and the outside world. And what I've increasingly learned is to invite that in. So not resist it. Say, okay, here they are. And I've worked with those wounds. And there's still plenty of work to do for sure but I've

really worked through those I've I've really sat with those old stories of um what's happened to me in the past um I've begun increasingly to think more about um to take the blame away from myself that things that have happened to me that I've done in my lifetime and start to think more about um my ancestral line um and you know the world itself but you know herein lies exactly what happens in the inner autumn when that ego dissolves you know the weight of the world is also there it's also there so yeah I think this this journey for me has been about getting to know these wounds and not being so scared of them and recognizing them and naming them and being with them and holding the tension of them and that enables me to move through the cycle, witnessing the awakening of the power that it brings with it. power can feel so raw and destructive actually I've told this story before but I just feel like

it's helpful for some reason because I think we've all had these moments when I was probably 30 or 31 and this was at the height of my premenstrual suffering my ex-husband who was a wonderful man he said something and what he said awoke deep traumas in me around the masculine and abusive experiences from the past around the masculine and I found myself in floods of tears uh and I couldn't be in inside I had to be outside it was pouring with rain but the I often experience this in inner autumn I'm curious if you do too that there's I need to be in nature because it's big enough to hold the wild force pushing through me so I went outside and I was underneath that the apple tree that was in our garden and it was pouring with rain there was mascara streaming down

my face and my tears were mingling with the rain and I was actually clawing the earth I was so desperately in pain and it was when you mentioned the ancestral piece it was my pain and it was unfelt past pain I this is my dreaming I don't know I don't know what it was but that's what it felt like. It was more than my pain roaring through me. It was the pain of all the women who had been abused. That's what it felt like. And yes, without the context of knowing this is inner autumn, this is, there is medicine here. It kind of roared through me un unheld uncontained without my capacity to hold the tension and yeah the way you're saying that mental cycle awareness holds us contextualizes it's not that it necessarily makes sense of but it makes it contains yeah it does and just something a couple of things really come through for me listening to your story one is I'm is is Alexandra um um saying um it's something that Alexandra says she says that you know PMDD is a real power awakening and and that really spoke to me at the time because it was so it was so different to the pathological route

that I was being pushed along with a diagnosis of PMDD, a disorder. So, yeah, you have dysphoria and it's disorder because it's just sort of the container's not there and it's impacting everything. And something that your stories come through is that, actually, how wonderful to have that space in the garden to claw at the earth and just feel that full force of power. our world and we're having to look after others as we've all experienced this really premenstrually it comes out as complete rage um and negatively impacts others and i think the guilt of that actually for me if i think about the guilt that i have felt um when that rage almost feels like it has no container or space any longer and it's just being it's like fury just just unleashing on everyone and everything including

myself um guilt comes in and shame and that's where PMDD for me wasn't just a few days a month it was so much longer that's what I was talking me wasn't just a few days a month. It was so much longer. That's what I was talking about where it just kind of spread through because and then even when I'd come through my period, it didn't necessarily go away the feeling because I was then coming through and thinking, oh my gosh, what did I do? What have I done? And then that what have I done? And then that, what have I, or, and then it just is on repeat. So when this power doesn't have a place to go, it begins to sort of implode in a way. That was my experience. And it is power. PMDD is a signal to power awakening. And, you know, as Alexandra had said to me, many years ago, she validated my experience beyond something that needed curing or medicating, or fixing.

Like, oh, I was curious, this really is a power, what? it is and so um yes it's it's really difficult isn't it to distinguish um this power that we're speaking about and then the rage and the how horrible it actually is when you experience it when it inflicts pain on others and you can witness the pain you're inflicting on others um it's it's extremely hard this is not a one woman show you know and actually the menstrual cycle isn't this isn't an individual experience this is something where we we all support one another um the family ideally can support you and and and where I would just take that of course is through MCA is that resting deeply and in a winter is the thing that actually starts easing it then that's how I can sit here now and and hold the tension because I have the resources of that deep rest that I've taken last winter and the winter before the inner winter um deep rest yeah

and the context for this for you is that you have three children yeah and you're doing this big work with menstrual cycle support so there's a lot that you're tending to in your world and they're just two of the things that I imagine that you're tending to in your life so there's a lot that you're you're holding for others and yeah thank you for always the reminder that it's the rest that makes that makes the power possible in the cycle and I would love to track with you if this is possible this might be my like inner summer euphoria I'm trying to think we can do the impossible but to track somehow how that the the suffering and the power that was pushing through you through the PMDD times

how how that has transmuted into or how some of that has transmuted into the gold that we're seeing today with what you're doing with menstrual cycle support? I mean, I think first and foremost, when you find a practice that actually is incredibly simple, as so many of us have experienced when we've encountered menstruality for the first time, I've seen it myself in teaching and facilitating the work. There's a penny drop moment of, oh, oh, right. Okay, oh, we're cyclical. All right, there's the seasons. Oh, okay, there's different energies.

I think because when I, it was revolutionary to me, this idea that there was this container of the menstrual cycle. There's such a deep truth, a truth that I had never heard anywhere else before from the teachings from Red School that was so relatable. And I think then because it had such a revolutionary effect and by revolutionary effect I mean I don't have PMDD anymore. You know, I didn't go down the medical route. Now that's not to say those that are choosing that route is not, I'm not

sitting here in any judgment at all, because we all take our own routes to finding the way through for healing. So I would say that. But I wanted to, because it had been so revolutionary for me, and had awoken the power in a way that I could hold. More than that, appreciate and enjoy and actually find a sense of euphoria somewhere in the dysphoria of it. I wanted to share it with as many people as I could. But I'd also really noticed that, you know, it wasn't like enough

just to share it with individuals. I wanted to really, I had a real calling just to change the system, to change the way that I had been pathologized, which of course I hear so many other people share similar stories, you know, where I'd gone in to see the doctor and I was diagnosed with long-term depression and prescribed medication and had gone to different therapists over the years as well as the same experience as going to see the doctor. And not one person had ever asked me where I was in my menstrual cycle nobody had ever made a connection between my experience and the menstrual cycle and I really wanted to change that because it felt like very a very simple thing to really in theory would be a simple thing to change I've just got head to toe shivers just so I'm shaking it's it's incredible isn't it because we're so immersed in this work but it's the most obvious thing to us

okay where are you at in your cycle how is that impacting but of course it isn't in the mainstream and that's where your calling is changing everything yes yes okay so you're with the doctor no one asked you where are you at in your cycle yeah yeah no one ever asked me that question I'm really hopeful that that's actually really shifting now um because of all of the work that we're all doing um actually the menopause work is is shifting it too I think because there is so so there's loads more work to be done but there's so much more understanding now of the impact of menopause and that policy is changing slowly and I just feel like that's going to trickle down into the

menstrual cycle too yeah I think so yeah I mean you'd hope so wouldn't you because um you know it's a good uh 40 years that we have a menstrual cycle so um and uh you know good uh half the population so yes it would be good to have more focus on the menstrual cycle but even the fact that actually my my program um through menstrual cycle support which really is teaching um menstrual cycle awareness um uh the very the very sort of tip of the iceberg of menstrual cycle awareness so just grounding people in what day they are um how is it making them how do they feel in themselves and um can they can they start to chart that in a way that feels good for them as simple as an emoji um and and then after three you know three cycles of tracking

to start to recognize patterns but then you can actually go what what's normal for me so so that's really the level that i'm i'm teaching ultimately part of that is to then um speed up getting the support that they need to recognize okay actually i actually, I'm getting two weeks a month, I'm feeling really, really bad. Because my experience was I didn't know that my symptoms were cyclical for a very long time. I just thought there was something wrong with me. So I hadn't even thought about my period. I really didn't know. And it was only when my box of antidepressants sort of sat and opened that, and I came, I must have come through my period, that I realized that I felt differently.

And then I just felt shame, you know. Oh, God, this is my period. Oh, God, you know. And that's where the work really began of, like, unpicking and unpacking that relationship with my cycle you know I did look for different ways of training doctors initially but what came through um is that there wasn't enough data around menstrual cycle awareness at that time um that doctors would be able to use it as a training actually since covid the the continuing professional development

for doctors has changed slightly so um any any extra courses they do classes as cpd so that's interesting in itself but But when I was first looking, that was the case. I wasn't going to be able to change the training of doctors. You quickly realize, don't get very much gynecological training anyway. And you quickly realize that's because they're learning an awful lot of other things. I'm not saying it's right that they don't have any gynecological training, but also, you know, it was a more challenging route in for me. And that led to a conversation about creating a course that could be available for patients. And that's where just fortuitously or perhaps it was destined by the universe and through many months of kind of tuning in to my own calling through my menstrual cycle, this opportunity came up of putting it into the NHS on social prescription. hey i'm going to pause for a moment we have an invitation for you particularly if you're feeling called to connect to your menstrual cycle more deeply perhaps because you recognize

the kind of premenstrual challenges that kate's describing in this episode today or you're navigating other menstrual health symptoms or you're simply passionate about the menstrual cycle because of a deep knowing or an inner yes that you're navigating other menstrual health symptoms or you're simply passionate about the menstrual cycle because of a deep knowing or an inner yes that you're feeling if so we'd love to invite you to join our menstruality leadership program we start in february next year in 2025 and we're hosting a free introductory webinar on july the 25th all about the menstrual cycle and leadership and we'll also tell you all about the program you can ask any questions that you have you can register for the webinar and find out all about the menstruality leadership program at menstrualityleadership.com okay let's get back

to our conversation with Kate when you say through the process of working with my cycle and hearing my calling I'd love to unpick that a little bit because I know so many of our people listening are in inside this process me too my calling is telling me something really new these past this past year and I'm like okay I'm like decoding something new now what did that look like for you because I imagine there's a tangle of shame in there still because there's still healing going on but there's also something pulling you from the outside you're seeing that that this suffering needs to end could you walk us into that a little bit what did it feel like and sound like inside you well in a way it's almost like

redirected rage isn't it it's the kind of like okay right we've got I know that we've got this huge amount of um anger that I that anger as a source of saying i'm gonna get out there and change the world i'm i feel incited to i feel the injustice this is injustice yes no this hasn't all just because this is not all me this is not my fault like there's an injustice here i'm not disord Actually, I was beginning to see how I was completely unsupported, had never had any support with my menstrual cycle, didn't have any support through the abusive experiences I'd had. Everything had just been sort of hidden down. But, you know, the PMDD wasn't allowing it to be hidden anymore it's like it's like it's coming out it's coming you know and and then and then being able to sort of see

the wood for the trees in a way through the deep rest and then using that sense of injustice to go out and say do you know what I'm going to go and change the system here so there's there's there's that piece and then there's a much gentler piece which is the visionary experience. You know, with deep rest, I was able just to dream. And in dreaming, I was beginning to see, and I think I told you this story before, but it's a story I will tell again, because it's sort of a motif that has come through over many years of this journe stone, huge standing stone and then with the sword in it. And I took the sword out. I mean, at the time, I think I did

it while I had like really bad period pain. You know, I was really journeying into this period pain I was feeling. And I took the sword out and I realized that that was the sword of suffering. I had this sense that this is the sword of suffering I'm holding. And I looked at the standing stone and it was suddenly sort of, it represented the pain. And it was suddenly sort of glistering. It almost had like quartz in it and it had a real magic to it that was took a new um it had a new characteristic to it that was was very important and it was something almost to be

I was in awe of it this pain I was actually in awe of it. And meanwhile, I'm holding this sword of suffering. And coming through that vision, I had a real sense of clarity that my role was to end menstrual suffering. And that turned into then being the strapline for menstrual cycle support. And, you know, so that for me is calling, you know, it's that, that's the, even the interpretation of it is not sort of necessary questioning it was just like going with that sense of clarity that came through on you know in in that chamber that clarity and direction was just yeah yeah it's a it's a poetic mythical experience that we're pointing to and i think the word motif that you brought in there is really valuable for all of us to sit with and not think about necessarily but feel into especially when we are able to claim rest at menstruation what what are the motifs that are coming to me and

often the ones that come back again and again or the ones that feel especially big and then it's such a process of believing ourselves and trusting ourselves, isn't it? Trusting that there was something in that experience and then the trust allows the meaning to be revealed more and more somehow. I love that. And actually to anybody who is experiencing

or identifies with PMDD, it's that, it's that trust, trust in the power that's calling to you um and and I I feel quite moved by that idea of of trusting in ourselves when things are really dark yeah and and and trusting that we we can hold it and to move through it and we're forgiven as well to forgive ourselves for for for for exploding which is part of the power of awakening and we are unsupported so we don't have that moment of you know if only we could just go out and just claw at the earth Sophie you know and under the apple tree and actually I think even that is a real sort of

invitation I love that so much your story of um I'm really going to remember that next time that feeling comes up of just deep breath and just step out and go and so that that power can be unleashed because it wants to be and we need to allow it to be in a safe safer space as possible but it's okay if it comes out in other ways because we're just learning we're all just learning all the time aren't we I'm seeing a volcano like does a volcano blame itself for erupting. And no, you know, it's like there is a wild power. It's Alexander Shani's book that's pushing through us. And yeah, I feel like we're teasing out two levels of support here.

There's the support of the natural world, which is always available, even in the middle of inner city London, there's the sky and there's the earth underneath. And there's usually a park within a 10 minute walk. I've just been in London and it was amazing to feel yeah the difference of the energy there but there are always wild spaces but also community like I think Red School exists so that people can come and say I just roared at my partner family friend mum dad whoever from this place of of pain and rage and I feel shame and I just want to know that there's nothing wrong with me and I'm okay and then

we rush in and go there is nothing wrong with you you are okay you know you are okay yeah and I think that's it we think about the power of the you know the check-in is where it's so useful is that we we're we're giving ourselves that chance to articulate really deeply how we're feeling. And then having now articulated it this morning with you, I will be able to probably repeat almost exactly what I said to my husband and possibly to my children as well in that kind of like, look, this is actually where I'm at now. So I've empowered myself to think about where I'm at and articulate it in the best way I can and then share that with others so that, you know,

and be okay if they say, do you want to take a moment? And to take that moment because, you know, if it's offered. Sophie, I wanted to talk a bit about this word suffering some more because, as I say, I had really perceived this word suffering through my vision and ended up sort of questioning that word as I probably as I went out into the into the world into my spring summer oh hang on oh that was quite a big vision um what's that actually mean oh my gosh end menstrual suffering I don't know if I me um and I really sort of

looked at this word suffering and and it's it's quite challenging you know because you do we think well hang on it's suffering it's suffering part of the human condition just like happiness sadness pain you know if you end one will will you end happiness? You know, is it not the full spectrum to feel into these things? And actually, I ended up, for menstrual cycle support, I've actually used the word ease menstrual suffering to just as a way of kind of stepping to the side of that questioning around suffering. Now, you know, we could speak a lot more here, like, is there such thing as unnecessary suffering or necessary suffering? And it's really we as peaceful, as peace activists that we are, you know, you know, all suffering really is unnecessary, we hope.

And so, yes, so I had I had prescribe mental cycle awareness alongside or preferably before medical intervention so people can understand their own cycle. And also so that people could do the course before they go and see a doctor so that they feel more empowered in what they're asking for and what their needs are and what support they need. But it was very interesting, this word suffering, because the clinicians that we worked with to get the program into the NHS prefer the word symptoms. And so they saw suffering and symptoms as synonymous these menstrual symptoms and this is quite an interesting again this is a sort of the line I think and I'm feeling my way here Sophie I haven't fully thought this through but before now but I that line again of the pathologization of the experience into symptoms that can be fixed and suffering, which actually in itself has a more philosophical, you know, we've just spoken a little bit unnecessary, necessary suffering has more of a philosophical side to it um for me suffering has been when I think about my vision suffering was separating the pain from the experience I was bringing to it yeah the sword was the suffering

and the stone was the pain and you were creating a distinction yeah yeah and that And that really helped me through my PMDD time as I was coming into relationship with my daily menstrual cycle. Because when I would be lying on, I had very young children at the time. And when I was lying, I'd be lying on the sofa just thinking, I just can't do this. Now that would very quickly spiral into, I'm a terrible person. I'm a terrible mother. I'm not good enough. You know, very quickly. And actually, frankly, that goes to, I don't deserve to live. And it's very quick from just lying on the sofa. And so the big shift, and I guess the revolutionary moment was lying on the sofa and saying, well, you know, last week I was, we were out collecting shells on the sofa and saying well you know last week I was we were out collecting shells on the beach and that was lovely and now I'm in a place of just needing to lie here and there's such a self-acceptance and so that suffering was just starting just to to move away still having to be with the kind of hollowness of lying on the sofa not feeling up for doing anything but the suffering of this is because I'm not good enough to live

just sort of move to the side and so that distinction I think is is and has been very important to me yeah I'm really present to the space between the stone and the sword that there's space there and that when we do this you know Alexandra and Shani often refer to it as the spirit as a mindfulness practice of menstrual cycle awareness it gives us that buffer of a little bit more space between the thought the suffering and then the immediate shaming reaction the cascade of shaming thoughts there's a bit more space for you to remember the shell moment was good and for you to have a moment of self-compassion and now this is what I need it's everything it's the tiniest thing and it's everything it is well it's the difference between

living and not wanting to live you know and that's the extremity of it you know um of of pmdd um it's it's the fight of of of reality isn't it so there was a real fight there in a way I've noticed more you mentioned about decoding your own um calling lately and I have noticed a shift for me and it could be as I'm going in now I'm 43 and my energy is is is changing I'm shifting through my life cycle and what I have really perceived is that there's been a bit of a fight with this sword you know that I've there's an element of warrior energy to it which I think in a way you need to go and sort of combat the system and change the system there's more of a gentleness coming in now and I'm starting to have a different relationship to it in a way which is still coming through I don't know what that is yet I don't know what the future of menstrual cycle especially on day 23 but I don't know what the future now is for

menstrual cycle support in a way I felt like everybody needs to know in the medical system that this practice helps ease menstrual suffering. It improves life. And I really set out to do that. And in order to do that, I had to make it as robust as possible. Now, we know who practice it. It's as robust as it possibly needs to be. We know from our own experience, actually actually that's really all that counts um but in a way we're still at a place where in order to get things in the door of like mainstream health care um i had to sort of like retrospectively with um red school's blessing um to to almost retrospectively underpin it with therapeutic and evidence-informed practice, to get clinical backing and input into it, signed off, to get it endorsed by the Royal College of

Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, get the Women's Health Ambassador to endorse it, get all the menstrual health charities involved in it in order to say this thing has legs and it's not going to be any surprise to any of us who practice this that the the impact report showed exactly that everyone shows that mental cycle awareness eases suffering. This is amazing. But it is amazing. It is. I told you so. You know, but we need it.

And actually, it's still the beginning of the journey, because the thing is with the via positiva world, so that, you know, the reality that is the current society is, is my goodness you just have to constantly prove prove prove prove prove and that's quite exhausting which is also why I think we come around to our inner autumn feeling pretty exhausted with all of that we don't I've got nothing more to prove like I am credible as me I don't need you know I don't need to prove myself anymore um you know but but it's like a constant journey of that and um and I'm telling you that's not been easy but I either um it's like a firewall to go through to be to be sits sitting in a room with um um MPs and clinical psychologists and research um into pain menstrual pain from oxford university

and you know the and be questioned in this it's it's really really tough and um thank goodness i get that time every month just to go back and just be with sit with this sword and the stone and just or and whatever else comes through yeah I saw it in your TED talk what I saw is you standing fully in your tenderness so we could say the via negativa this energy flow of the second half of the cycle I can't remember what day you're on in your day six so I was like in a tender like day five or day six or something there was such tenderness but you were you were it was how I'm trying to think of a metaphor um a tree really is a good metaphor I could feel the robustness of your trunk how rooted you were in your own direct experience but in all of the research that you were doing to be in this

place and then I could feel the courage of being willing to be vulnerable and share and share the depth of menstrual cycle you did it so skillfully in the TED talk to share the depth of menstrual cycle awareness in a way that was accessible for people um and I just I am so so grateful I just speak on behalf of everyone listening now that you were willing and that you have the mind and the metal and the the muscle to be able to sit in those rooms and bring forth what people need to hear in order I I think that um I'm ever willing this is about doing it together in community and you know this this work that I've done and the impact report so the robust data that has come through is independently put together by two academics about mental cycle

awareness I really want to make it available for anybody who's working in menstruality. If you're a menstruality mentor, you take it into your work. If you feel like, I mean, we know we don't need it. We can stand and say, we know this works. But if you do feel like you want to just put that bit under it to help it go where it needs to go then please all get in touch with me but also it's there on um on my website um mental cycle support.com it's there and please just use it this is this is this is not um mine this is ours just as the practice has been yeah the amount of times aid has said to me so one of the things that would really take red school to the next level is if you had two years of qualitative data of interviews with

people which showed how their lives have been transformed and i'm like i know i know but i don't know when we would have the time to find the time to do that and i think what you're saying is there is this data here now there is this report could you like some summarize what the report says could you just in like highlight what the report holds you know in terms of how people could could use it and share it I think the um main bit that we can share really is that menstrual cycle awareness has been um endorsed this is a really important word it's been endorsed by the royal college of obstetricians and gynecologists about being you know to use these words i'm feeling quite inspired now actually from this conversation just to put this down in a way that can be shared. And I will do that based on what I've done with this work.

And it's available in the NHS already on social prescription. So even that, these words are important. So straight away, even that alone. Then in the impact report that we did, it showed like a very significant positive statistical increase in people's confidence in speaking to health care professionals, in people's relationship to their menstrual cycle. Those two big pieces, you know, have the confidence to get the support you need and your relationship changes because what we know is if you have confidence to speak about what you need it helps you get what you need faster so you have better health outcomes and if you have an increased relationship positive relationship to your menstrual cycle what we know and what my whole story has been is that

improves the relationship with everyone and everything around you and the ripple effects are just exponential aren't they yes yes we've all seen them in our own lives everyone's nodding along with you for people who are thinking I want to help I want to contribute to this I want to be part of this are there opportunities for people, how can they help your work? To reach out and get in touch and let's explore ways that we can work together. I think really, you know, so open to collaboration in this work. And a little bit, I think initially I really set out as alone alone with a fight you know and um this utterly senseless you know this is a this is this is a job for for us all and and it's working that's the thing it's working because all of the doctors that I have spoken to, all of the GP surgeries. So it's in over 500 GP surgeries across the UK, which is astonishing, really.

But actually, it was really welcomed because there was a recognition that actually, no, we don't. We have very limited choices of what we can give to our patients. So, so, so I think also if you want to go in and work in your local surgery, particularly through social prescribing and you want help, you know, if you'd like some help from me and guidance, I'm very willing to give that. And you can contact me through the website. Great. I'll put the link in the show notes so that people can, what's next for you? What are you working on at the moment and what can what what's next for you what are you working on at the moment and what's what's coming up now with menstrual cycle support and with your work well I'm interested to see what comes up in the next uh bleed this next week um

because there was a real sense, we launched a course for teenagers at the House of Commons. So again, this is also extraordinary, really, how that came about. So that's a course on mental cycle awareness for anyone aged 13 to 18. And that's really aimed at getting into schools as well. And we worked with lots of schools to develop that. So also there's data here to show that it works across the lifespan. And what's next? I don't really know, because I think I felt like I needed to take my foot off the accelerator a little bit and just take a pause. And that's exactly what I've done. I've just taken a little step back and just take a breath to check in with the calling because I

noticed that it was starting to change a little bit. The relationship to it has changed and so wanting to ever stay present to that and um because you saw what happened last time you listened exactly what could happen now exactly exactly I'd like to see menstrual cycle awareness continue on its journey into you know what I'd love is it for to be an actual clinical intervention um I see that one day for menstrual cycle awareness I really do um let's explain the difference between clinical intervention and social prescription yeah so social prescribing is um uh the phrase that describes when a healthcare professional refers you to a non-clinical treatment in your local community. So for example, it might be a walking group for loneliness. So actually mental cycle support just

fits so beautifully into that because it was a non-clinical. So what does non-clinical and clinical mean? If it's a clinical intervention, it's gone through more trials. That's essentially it. So it's been tested. There's been a placebo versus a blind testing. You know, so that's a whole other area that actually I don't know a huge amount about, but that's what I really see for menstrual cycle awareness although you know this is again about well how much more do we need

to demonstrate you know in a way it's there it's on social prescribing um there's space for so many more to come in and offers you know every surgery um uh in England certainly and in Scotland and Wales too um offers some kind of social prescribing. So if you are offering some sort of menstrual support in your local community, you could probably do it through social prescription as well. If you contact your local surgery or local social prescribing group and social prescribing is all over the world now. I think it's in 17 or 18 countries all over the all over the world, including Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and, and the U S so, um, so there's a lot of potential there. Um, yeah, so I think it's just waiting to see. I, I, I, um, still very much feel into this identity of being a menstrualist and what that what does that mean? And the idea that we are part of this bigger movement called menstrualism, as you mentioned at the beginning of this evolution of feminism.

And so I'm exploring researching and writing that, I think, a little bit more as the next step so we shall see. Wow well I'm watching this space. Doing a sub stack, a sub stack. Could be, could be. I'll probably have much more certainty in two weeks time right now where everything is literally like I don't really know what's going on or what I'm doing and just normalizing that is such a gift right now where everything is literally like I don't really know what's going on or what I'm doing and just normalizing that is such a gift right now this happens every I've been lucky to have good conversations with you twice and both those times I wanted to speak to you again and I already have many more things that I want to talk to you about so hopefully we can welcome you back to the podcast again soon and yeah as I said my gratitude is is profound for well for the courage that it took

to take your PMDD journey to the place that you're in now and then for how you've sat in these rooms in these spaces and done all of this work to profoundly change people's lives and you go menstrualist I'm right there with you. Thank you so much, love. And thank you for today. Thanks, Sophie. Bye, everyone. Hey, thanks for being with us all the way through to the end today. I was so touched, so moved by everything that Kate shared about her personal experience with PMDD but also about how her calling was

working her through the rage that she was experiencing and how it continues to work her today I find that so fascinating if you know someone that's really struggling with their inner autumn with the premenstrual phase please forward this podcast to them please share it with them as a way of supporting them and as always thank you so much for being part of the community gathered around this work I'll be with you again next week and until then keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm