The Menstruality Podcast - 164. How Cycle Awareness Helps Us to Follow Our Callings (Grace Winteringham)

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

Menstrual Cycle Awareness gives us a direct line to our deep selves, to what we’re here for and what we most deeply love. As Alexandra and Sjanie say in Wild Power: “The journey to realizing your Calling, or purpose, is made possible by the process of initiation, which is encoded in your menstrual cycle. Initiatory change happens through the archetypal pattern of death and rebirth – which is exactly what we experience each month at Menstruation.”Today’s conversation feels like a wild safari into the messy day-to-day reality of how the menstrual cycle helps us to live our Callings, with a woman who knows a thing or two about archetypal patterns.Grace Winteringham is the co-founder of Patternity, a conscious Creative Organisation dedicated to sharing the positive power of pattern with the world. Along with her co-founder Anna Murray, she was named one of Evening Standard’s 1000 most influential people. She’s also a graduate of the Red School Menstruality Leadership Programme, and is currently immersed in a process of accelerated transformation as she navigates her own quest to follow her calling. We explore:Grace’s journey from premenstrual rage and depression to feeling most at home in her inner autumn.The menstrual cycle as the fundamental pattern we live by. How cycle awareness holds us through the natural process of the ebb and flow as we ‘learn to live by our own code’, and Grace’s story of navigating a confronting sense of deep uncertainty when she stepped back from Patternity after a recent experience of burnout. ---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardyGrace Winteringham @grace_winteringham - https://www.instagram.com/grace_winteringham

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for being with me today. One of the things I most love about the practice of menstrual cycle awareness is how it gives me a direct line to my deep self, to what I'm here for, to what I most deeply care about and as Alexandra and Sharni say in Wild Power, the journey to

realising your calling or purpose is made possible by the process of initiation which is encoded in your menstrual cycle. Initiatory change happens through the archetypal pattern of death and rebirth which is exactly what we experience each month at menstruation. And my conversation today feels like a wild safari into the messy day-to-day lived reality of how the menstrual cycle helps us to live our calling. And I'm chatting with a woman who knows a thing or two about archetypal patterns. Grace Winteringham is the co-founder of Paternity, a conscious creative organization dedicated to sharing the positive power of pattern with the world. Along with her co-founder Anna Murray, she was named one of Evening Standard's

1000 Most Influential People. She's also a graduate of the Red School Menstruality Leadership Program. I was on the MLP with her and Anna, so I got to spend some time in person with them. And Grace is currently immersed in a process of accelerated transformation as she navigates her own quest to follow her calling. So let's get started with how cycle awareness helps us to follow our callings with the amazing Grace Winteringham. Oh well Grace, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I've got so many questions for you and I can't wait to get into this chat. But before we let us do a cycle check-in you just let me know that you're in the middle of your cycle you're around ovulation right that is correct yeah thank you

Sophie and yes so nice to be here um I'm day 14 and I'm this is a this is a good time for me generally feeling very like full of energy and positive and just yeah out in the world but it was the full moon last night and I had so many crazy dreams that I feel like I feel exhausted I think I don't I don't think I didn't sleep I think I just did multiple adventures so I need to kind of unpick them a little bit but anyway yeah that's maybe for another podcast part two exactly I'm on day six here and I've got a very untamed feeling so it's like I've been a horse in a in a paddock in a field and I've jumped the ropes or the fence and I'm just running through the landscape but I'm and I don't know where I'm going so it feels like exhilarating and dangerous at the same time I love that so I've come out of my

bleed there's a lot of rising energy now as I come into the pre-ovulation inner spring phase and I just need some containment so I've got to bear that in mind today like gain the energy don't let it like splurge you know so you and I met on the menstruality leadership program and I think that was like 2017 or 2018 something like that 2018 yeah 2018 so the first thing I'm curious to ask about is what called you to that program what made you say yes I have to be there my journey into sort of menstrual awareness has been kind of a rocky one in the sense that I I really struggled with moods I mean the the kind of term that we're familiar with is PMT and I suppose from doing the work with Red School I kind of understand that that's it's not as simple as that it's not necessarily just a label that one attaches but then I'm very aware I'm very aware of those sort of behaviors if you will almost like the moods of

those really intense fluctuations that I used to experience around well just every month every month of my cycle and I'd also you know without going into too much detail it was something I really recognized in my mum and it was something she really struggled with but women then because of the lack of knowledge then in terms of like holding down jobs, running families, just being on all the time. And, you know, she's a baby boomer. So it's like of that very, you know, patriarchal kind of way of women really wanting to sort of find their place in the world, but just not really being um acknowledged for just what they're experiencing you know so I was always quite scared of the cycle but I suppose I wouldn't

have ever called it that then it was very much just like my mum having quite challenging times and then a period of almost like apology and just saying oh you know I'm really premenstrual and and I mirrored that pattern pretty much I would say and it was actually a boy an ex-boyfriend who kind of helped me to see because I couldn't really see it when I was in it even though I was aware of what happened with my mum yeah I just you know and I felt quite isolated in the sense of I didn't really sense many friends having a similar situation and yeah through the kind of guidance of a partner just sort of saying look you know I think this might be something you need to look into it sort of took me on this journey and when I went down

a medical route initially that was sort of what was most accessible at that time, just from a basic internet search. And then that led me on to finding the Red School. I don't really remember how, but I ended up attending like a weekend workshop in Brighton, which would have been maybe like the year before. And I was just like, wow, this is, you know, this is speaking a whole other language that just feels so

real and needed. And it's been a long journey in terms of coming to that place. And one that has been slow, you know, it's almost like every cycle almost just going oh and here I am again oh and now I need to look at this again and I think the MLP was then you know with you and with I mean it was an amazing group of people I just found the whole thing just I mean it was life-changing truly. Before we get into how it changed things for you, I'd just love it if we can, if you're willing to look at what was happening for you in those PMT weeks, just to pull it out of the shadows. I know that on the podcast, I've shared a lot of my experiences of what my inner autumn premenstrual rage and anxiety and depression look like so I just would you mind sharing a bit

about what it what it looked like and the impact that that it had yeah of course yeah sure it's a little bit hazy now it's a bit like a dream in the way where you sort of try to grab hold of something you kind of you can't you kind of can't really grab hold of the feeling but it's so real in the moment and I definitely had I would say like rage like real rage to the point where I was just so angry with myself but mostly it would be projected onto others um and then with that real anger like I was never I was never physically violent with someone but I could feel that was very possible like in my being I mean I mean there were times honestly Sophie when I would I felt suicidal it was just complete like desperation and and despair but just what was

the point you know that was kind kind of underpinning it and just feeling like you're caught in a vicious cycle as opposed to a supportive cycle or a cycle that's going to change, you know, you're just sort of stuck there. And it was often about the other. If I was on my own, it was almost like I could just be in those spaces of anger and frustration just on my own and it didn't really matter but it was incredibly impactful to the people that were in my life and that I think was probably the catalyst for the change because that's just didn't feel that's just not acceptable but I really wanted to understand why that was happening yeah yeah thank you for naming that I know so many people

have felt that way and still feel that way and we've had several conversations on the podcast about PMDD and about the severe premenstrual rage that can happen I know that place personally big questions Grace for like 11 o'clock on a Tuesday morning but I can feel how a lot of that rage was that I was sitting outside of my own truth of myself and my experience. And there was something about that, the rage and the depression that forced me to look at who I am, what I'm about and what I want, what I'm here to do. And I'm just curious if that process was at work there for you since we're having a conversation here about about callings yeah I think at that time it wasn't as black and white as that for me I think at that time I was I was running a business with a friend um with Anna a company called Paternity and

I think I was just I was working incredibly hard but also 20, you know, I was in my like mid 20s. I was partying a lot, like we would go to events and we were quite sociable and, you know, like meeting people. And, you know, one minute we were doing installations and the next minute we'd be like doing photo shoots and then giving talks and so it was a really intense period of time that I was working I was overworked you know like we were overworked and that's and that's something that I've been able to reflect on a lot since but I think maybe because I was oblivious to the the sort of fundamental rhythms and seasons and patterns that were kind of existing within me, I was kind of trying to override them. And then the kind of fallout of that was then very intense PMT. So, yeah, it was at the time with regards to a calling, I was living out an ambition, I suppose.

I came out of uni and didn't really work for anyone else I just sort of went straight into setting up a business wow so that felt like a calling in a way because it was like I'm just following something really instinctual almost but yes since then having had more time to kind of go deeper and reflect and be like okay so what is it is the calling you know that that yeah that that's come a bit later but I think that is partly also to do with just age as well you know just getting a bit older because at that time you know you're just like having fun yeah yeah wanting to do everything the things we do in our 20s I know I guess what I'm hearing maybe the common theme for both of us is our inner autumn pre-monstral

window was showing us what was out of whack in our lives what was out of balance definitely it was coming out in an ugly difficult challenging kind of quite aggressive way for both of us that made us pay attention yeah the inner autumn makes us pay attention doesn't it it certainly does and I don't know how this is for you Sophie but I can honestly say that the place of the cycle within autumn used to be so hard for me and now it's my favorite part same yeah it's like I'm trying to tell you something you're not listening so I'm gonna scream it really loud and then when we listen changes happen and yeah same it's my home now of the cycle yeah yeah so thank you I really appreciate that so back to the MLP we're sitting at Hawkwood back when Alexandra and Shaina used to do this in person and um you're there with Anna who you were running paternity with and

one of the things you said which I love and we and we've quoted quite a lot of Red School, is that you experienced the menstrual leadership program as nothing short of a miracle. And also that it's like this feminine instruction manual for love. I'd love to hear a bit more about how game game-changing it was for you to be immersed in this cyclical wisdom yeah I mean there's been so much as well because I since doing the MLP I've actually done it a second time and I've also done the creative power workshop and attend you know done your sick or doing your cyclical business with you and so I've I have had the um they had these multiple touch points with red school and the philosophies and things so it's hard to it's hard to really remember that like what that really felt like then but

it was yeah I think there was just um I suppose what I've realised, it was just an alternative way of seeing and being. And that was one of our sort of paternity bylines was a way of seeing a way of being. And so there was just something so, yeah, kind of profound within that, which Alexandra and Sharni were offering us. And at a very simple level, I mean, coming into community with a group of women for, I mean, I think each chunk of time was what, like five days, wasn't it? But it was over the course of a couple of months. So sort of two chunks of time. To be able to go on that like deep dive in almost like a red tent setting which is not something I've ever really done before and to really um to to be able to like honor your own

uniqueness as an individual but held in a community or a group of women who were all experiencing something very unique but completely aligned and shared you was like, I guess it gives one a true sense of belonging. That's how it felt for me. And doing it with Anna was also then a deeper layer to that, because obviously we'd had, we'd run this business together and we were a partnership, you know, a professional partnership. But it allowed us to kind of meet each other on another level, I think. And so it gave us a language really to understand a lot of our challenges, but also a lot of our inspirations and aspirations. It's so great to hear the word belonging really stands out for me. And that's what I see now because in a way the MLP has become even more immersive now because it's three months intensely together and the word belonging comes up again and again for the women and people that

join and it was my experience too of being immersed in a kind of a space that felt ancient and timeless with other women other people who bleed and leaning into the brilliance of the wisdom inside us and having full permission to go all the way in in a world that frankly doesn't care about our menstrual cycles and would much rather we just didn't talk about them ever I can't always remember I had a boss who said that her husband her husband had been looking in her handbag for something and had pulled out a tampon in a packet unused and had thrown it across the room in disgust like I really feel like that story displays where we're at collectively still around periods yeah the way that you and you and Anna hold pattern as central in our lives and the way you the ideas you have around it and the way it shapes how you see the world. I'm curious how it was to kind of

land yourselves in spirals and cycles in this way. Like, was this like next level, like the patterns in the world are inside our bodies? Like, was that happening for you? Did you know that already? So when we started paternity, it was a big exploration into the patterns that exist in all life. So it was like the web of life. So we knew that that was patterns that exist in all life so it was like the web of life so we knew that that was patterns that were within us and patterns outside of us so it was kind of a way of like categorizing almost by pattern but I don't think at that point we were going in we've sort of talked about this idea of like Anna and I this is about this patterns that sort of up and out and patterns that are kind of down and in.

And I suppose there's that sort of external expression of patterns. So maybe how we were applying it to products or installations or we had a I mean, this was like pre Instagram. We had this very visual blog of categorizing patterns. So we would have the spiral of a galaxy next to the spiral of water going down a plug hole next to the spiral of the way the hair comes out on an animal's skin. You know, so like drawing these comparisons through pattern. And it's kind of good when you've got the visual because it's so literal. neutral whereas this going in part now the patterns that exist within us is almost harder to illustrate in the sense that it can only really be experienced red school apart and is in in that regard it's very exciting in terms of like that could be this next chapter this going in this these exploring these deep hands that exist within us and that unite us so that it's available to everyone and I think that's this

big challenge that I'm getting quite excited about getting my teeth into next a sort of phase two yeah and thinking about your calling now yeah I know this is all so challenging to talk about it's so emergent it's intangible like the calling isn't like a thing that we can claim and state and it is that forever like it's always changing I feel like I'm I feel like it's like a scent and I'm on the trail of it but I never quite I never quite see it you know it's like a like the tail of a wild animal that keeps disappearing around the corner and I just keep following it wherever it's gone like that horse you're riding today Sophie yes like that the day six horse I'm galloping on where am I yeah because we're all in this together and by we I mean all the people listening to this as to you know we're

all going what am I about what am I here for how can I serve how can I be of service yeah is yeah how is that looking for you these days I just do not know Sophie I I find it's very changeable for me for a start I would probably say like in the last six months I've maybe had more clarity in terms of more of an instinct that it's like something's emerging. But as you say, and as I totally agree with, it's no one thing. It's not like a job in inverted commas. I see it more as a sort of a state of being. And I guess if I sort of look at that through like a cyclical lens you know there are ebbs and flows there are sort of highs and lows there are moments of light moments of

dark and so it is this kind of mutable thing but linking back to what I was just saying about this idea of exploring the world through an up and out lens versus a sort of a down and in lens it's hard because I'm sort of cautious to say this in the sense of it I don't want to become so down and in that you almost become completely isolated from reality but there is so much noise out there always you know there's just so much vying for our attention. And I think to just come back to the simplicity of, yeah, the rhythms and the patterns and the cycles that kind of exist within us, that to me is the calling.

It's like getting into alignment with that is my calling because it's almost like the calling of just being human and I feel that's probably I mean this is what I'm feeling whether I'm actioning it yet who by the time we're 80 in our rocking chairs we'll have nailed this being because I feel like what you're pointing to let me know if I'm getting this right is oh it's almost like we're just here to be ourselves yeah yeah you know this culture that we live in you know the legacy of colonisation, capitalist structure, the patriarchy on our heels, like driving us through ambition to create and produce and be bigger and better and faster. And I guess what I'm sensing and hearing is this this call down and in is about being. Yeah, absolutely. And just moving more in alignment with the pace of the earth and you know it can't be on all the

time it's not a linear just more more more up up up you know it's it just can't it and you know we all we've all heard all the well I was going to say all the stories but it's they're not stories I mean it's a very scary reality that we're kind of nearing complete collapse if not already kind of there you know so it's so it's just how can we make sure we don't collapse in ourselves because you know that's that's like the only thing you can really affect change of I guess is is is yourself yeah it's a hard truth I'm home to but that yeah we only really have agency over our own reactions and responses and decisions and cycle awareness for me I'm curious about for you it keeps me in touch with myself so that hopefully I'm responding rather than reacting

more definitely and I think that that almost comes full cycle in terms of the circle cycle just how what we were maybe experiencing with that idea of the the rage piece around you know the in autumn phase of the cycle and just where how that's sort of is still there but it's shifting into something that is a it's constructive as opposed to destructive and how can we use that rage or how can I use that kind of like it's sort of enraged passion if you will to just go not go against the system. That sounds a bit extreme, but it is, it's like, there is another way. There is another way. And I think cycle awareness is,

has definitely taught me that, but it's really helping me to see that. And it's something I'd like to help others to see as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel very aligned with you in this and I'm finding my mind my crazy wild day six mind traveling to the work that you've been doing recently with Dr. Dr. Rocio Rosales Meza yeah there are ways of knowing that have existed for a long time on our planet that totally embrace what you're saying um in all corners of the world and there have been structures and forces that have uprooted us from those knowings yeah could you share a bit about what what that decolonizing work how that how that has contributed to this

process yeah I mean the first course I did was called decolonial shadow work and it's called unlearning the white colonial mind so quite sort of intense really in terms of it was not it was not something I was taking lightly but I was really aware that I guess what where where she's coming from is one of a more indigenous way of being. So she's part of the Queer Inca lineage. And not to co-opt what she's sharing and teaching, but I guess what she's been trying to help us see is that we've kind of been just conditioned into a way of being and it's not considerate of indigenous ways ancient ways pre-colonial ways you know it's not it's not really honoring earth it's not honoring cycles it's not honoring seasons

so that has been a journey to first unpick and kind of unlearn and then bring in and how can we make offerings and be in right relationship and she encourages what you to kind of connect with your own ancestry and what might be true for you and your lineage and as a as a white British woman you know I'm like, well, I don't really know what that is. So then I was like, okay, so what is it for me? And then it was just this sudden realization that the cycle can offer that. Like my own menstrual cycle can be my anchor point. point so it's if it's about a cyclical lineage suddenly that kind of opened up this work and understanding her teachings or working with her teachings in less of a sort of

feeling of guilt and shame around what the like colonization has done and more of a way of like okay so what can we do now living in right relationship how can we act and become part of this global community that is honoring of of nature and and source you know and then I'm doing another course with her, slightly lighter touch, if you will, with Anna as well. And that's called Divine Alignment. And again, it's, I just feel like it's such important work to just keep coming back to this simplicity of this practice. And that for me is menstrual cycle awareness and, you know, cycle awareness for anyone who doesn't menstruate, but, know isn't menstruating so working with cycles like the moon or just seasonal cycles or like mood cycles whatever it might be you know there are cycles within cycles and we all experience them if we pay attention I'm going to pause the conversation with Grace just for a moment to share a personal message from Alexandra and Sharni so this is from the website for the menstruality leadership program

and they say as we write this dreaming into the circle that will gather for this journey we're deeply moved to feel the smorgasbord of possibilities available to you. Our deep hope for you if you feel called to take your seat in this circle is that you have a direct illuminating life-changing experience. An experience of being initiated into the way of the feminine, an experience of the potent personalized medicine of the menstrual cycle and an experience of your own growing sense of personal power what you're made of and capable of so that you can be unleashed to more fully serve your calling and be a force for change in the world the menstruality leadership program begins in february there's a special early bird offer that ends on Thursday the 3rd of October

where you can save £390 and you can find out all about the program, explore the curriculum, hear testimonials from previous graduates at menstrualityleadership.com. That's menstrualityleadership.com. Okay okay let's get back to the conversation with grace what I'm loving about listening to you and having this conversation is that we're really inside the nuances and the paradoxes and the um just the unknownness of people who want to follow the truth that's happening inside us and listen to it and live from it it's not as simple and i think there's a lot of tropes out there in the world and what is your calling and how can you live it and lead in the world and what it really looks like is this very intimate personal

often like personally for me fumbling feeling of okay I'm out of alignment how do I get back in alignment okay I'm more in alignment now I'm receiving some new information oh it's changing how I'm seeing things oh this value is more important now you know like just we're we're tracking together and I'm loving the aliveness of this you know like we don't have to make sense we don't have to make sense right now we have to just be true to what we're experiencing absolutely Sophie and I'm really grateful for you to for just even naming that because again part of this colonial conditioning is perfection and perfectionism is kind of like the cycle's worst enemy really isn't it I mean just and we're all so caught in it all the time you know yeah everything you shared there is just it's so

right and it's but it's so bloody hard to remember yeah just to be in the space of not knowing the via negativa yes yes the second half of the cycle that dissolves our egos and turns us into mush so that we can be reborn again yeah and the cycle is such a trickster too like when it comes so when we're talking about leadership as in the definition of leadership being um how close am I to my truest expression of myself and how much am I sharing that with the world uh and helping others to do the same maybe like I'm just use that as my definition of leadership right now the cycle keeps changing it keeps throwing us into new strange experiences like I've been oscillating between 24-day cycles and 30-day cycles so that's been keeping me on my toes like am I in an autumn now am I not then when we look to the bigger cycles of say like the cycles

I've been through recently cycles of infertility cycles of pregnancy cycles of breastfeeding and cycles of illness cycles of creativity um they are where am I going with this Grace well I think you're just going with the fact that it's it's this sort of like infinitely just ever emerging ever evolving wonder yes just as you were talking there I was thinking from a leadership perspective sorry to finish your sentences I wanted you to I wanted you um yeah it's I mean it's funny that even happened because it is a bit of this sort of like passing the baton or like you know passing the torch it's almost like when we when we just get to that point of okay I I am done now I can't I need to stop it's like don't worry like I've got you and I think that's yeah not only does we obviously can all do that for each other but

that is something that the cycle does and I think that's, yeah, not only does we obviously can all do that for each other, but that is something that the cycle does. And I think from a leadership perspective, this was something I shared actually halfway through doing the second MLP. So the sort of prerequisite to doing the apprenticeship, I just completed the MLP in 2023. And I don't remember what phase this was in, but this was in one of the kind of modules, I think probably as I was like coming into my inner spring maybe, which is a time that I find quite challenging. I'm very at home in the sort of via negativa part of the cycle, but I guess the via positiva is more like, right,

now I need to do something with this. Now I need to be a leader. But I think the kind of of realization was that like no matter what one does so whether you're interested in horse therapy or um branding or you know I'm just landscape gardening these are all things I've tried recently in a bid to find my calling it doesn't really matter what you're doing yeah the the sort of cycle is the consistent part that is what's creating the sort of tone of leadership within any of those fields and so you know like this is why I love I love the the sort of community in circle um on the on the circle platform that red school obviously it's kind of hosted on um you you know you just can really see all these different

interests you know there's like a volcanologist and a philosopher and uh then there's like yoga and nutrition and but it's it's almost like the the leadership part is is not about like what you're doing it's like how you're doing it yeah our calling is who we are yeah one of my teachers I've studied with for a long time Shamali from the Awakening Women Institute it's like she calls it the river of us yeah I love because it's rivers are constantly changing and and being renewed and but they're always there so they're kind of there and not there at the same time yeah the calling yeah is is the river of us and it moves through different iterations different seasons of life like like you say horse therapy which I totally would also love to have another podcast but for me it's like um

yeah yoga teaching filmmaking being a communications director a non-profit hosting this podcast creating your secret business and they're all quite they're quite different but they're the thread is who I am the values that I hold and what I love the most yeah you stand for what I love which I feel like is what we're talking about really definitely and fair play to you Sophie I mean you're absolutely like bossing it I don't agree but thank you I feel like I'm bumbling with all of us but yeah it's I feel the same about you when I look at what you and Anna did it did and maybe we'll continue to do at paternity I mean there's beautiful things going on in this us but yeah it's I feel the same about you when I look at what you and Anna did it did and maybe

we'll continue to do at paternity I mean there's beautiful things going on in this community right yeah yeah it's a very exciting place to be definitely yeah it's great to be part of that and it's refreshing to come to something where there isn't a feeling of competitiveness. And I think that's a massive thing between women, especially. And, you know, something that Anna and I were always really aware of in our design community, you know, we were at a time in London with, you know, everything was like really just like popping off visually because it was like the sort of beginning of Instagram. And there was a couple of like popping off visually because it was like the sort of beginning of Instagram and there was a couple of uh like friends who have design companies and there was just never any competitiveness it was always this really supportive almost like sisterhood for want of a

better phrase um in in what was a predominantly male oriented like industry really and there's just something so beautiful for that to I mean it's very much within Red School and the Hive and Circle and all these all these different um sort of communities but just within the movement you know it's it's just removing that competitiveness and wanting yeah it's everyone's coming at it from a place of genuine support and care. And I think we've been missing that care piece for so long. And I think this is what's bringing it, you know, we're going to be kind of bringing that back. Yeah, and the cycle is allowing us to do that.

Yeah, the cycle allows, or when we pay attention to the cycle it allows us to take care of our own needs well we have more capacity to have a relational experience with the rest of life yeah can I just name something go on I had an inner spring experience then because you said that I'm bossing it yeah like oh no no no no no no I just want to just name like my inner spring vulnerability was present there and I just want to just name like my inner spring vulnerability was present there and I just want to receive that thank you thank you for saying that I'm bossing it you definitely are you know how quickly do we jump in to say no no no I'm not good I mean it's a never-ending work though isn't it Sophie I mean it's, and it's constantly changing, you know, even beyond the cycle.

It's not, it's not just by the week or by the month. It's just like every minute, sometimes I'm like one minute, you know, but this morning I was like doing this podcast. I was like, yes, this is going to be great. I'm really looking forward to this. The next minute I was like, oh my God, what am I going to say? Like, that is just life life thank you for normalizing that and to bring cycle awareness in it's like probably the main teaching that I've got from cycle awareness which is actually probably the main teaching that I received from years of of being in the world of buddhism and yoga which is things change yeah

the only constant is change yeah I'm in a big moment in my life right now where there's a lot going on we're about to launch our cyclical business again it's it's and I keep just breathing and going so if you're gonna be fine because you know this is just I'm surfing a big wave right now and at some point the wave's gonna possibly cough me out like coughing and spluttering on the beach or maybe I'll gracefully slide into the beach who knows but I'll be on the beach and I'll be able to rest again and um that's really vital actually when we're on this quest of listening and following for the calling. Right. We need to fully embrace the ebb and flow of it.

And I wanted to ask you about this, because I feel like you've been in more of an ebb recently. An ebb, that's the down bit. Yes. When less is happening on the outside. Oh, yeah. I've been ebbing for a good good few years now and and how has the cycle held you in that like in your moments of doubt or I mean it definitely has it definitely has I guess with the menstrual cycle that that's the foundational piece for me but but as I was kind of just saying, there's so many other cycles going on. Such a hard question to answer because when I'm in it, again, it's almost like the PMT thing I was kind of referring to.

It's like you can't I can't ever see it when I'm in it. It's only once then you're maybe out of the other side and you've stepped into almost what would be like the polarity of that thing you know to be able to see and get the perspective of what was happening or like how I've changed yeah maybe maybe could you just ask the question again so a different way yeah yeah definitely I think one of the hardest things in life and I've just been one through one of these things myself is when we don't feel like we're in touch with this calling we feel like we've lost sight of it so in the couple of years after Artie was born I had some really dark nights like literally in the middle of the night going, what the fuck am I about? Like, I can't remember who I am and what I'm supposed to be doing here. I've had such

moments in my life where I like, we were planting a million trees at Tree Sisters. That's what I'm for. It's so clear. And here I was breastfeeding, exhausted, just smashed on the rocks by early mothering feeling like I just didn't know who I was like in a real ebb and knowing that it was going to change helped me cycle awareness helped me in that way but I'm also aware that I don't know how it's been for you but that you've been in more of an ebb over the past while and I'm curious how your cycloidus practice has supported and held you while you've been in your own experience of ebb yeah so I guess the ebb started for me when I took a step back from paternity so that would have been around sort of 2021 I actually moved from London to Glasgow a couple of years before that, having really just

felt completely burnt out. And I know it was the same for Anna as well. You know, we were just, we'd been doing the business for sort of 10, 12 years by that point, just exhausted, you know, and just on someone else's timeframe, mostly because we were working a lot with brands and you know other sort of design companies so that was a sort of a quite a slow but very um quite painful like almost untethering like going into that like ebb phase yes I think I don't know if I could just say it definitely wasn't like flow flow flow all the way up to that point. But it was almost like flow and then just really intense, like water rapids and mad waterfall crashing off an edge. But then to go into that ebb phase was almost just one of really going in and when I first started that process I'm and I'm still not by no means a master of this whatsoever but learning to go into that place of uncertainty and not knowing and almost realizing I think what a big change for me was like understanding the difference between almost like my work and my job so one was sort of my work was was this deep desire for like meaning

finding a calling wanting to like really be able to live as authentically as possible, live by my own code. And then my job was like how I'm going to pay the bills, you know. And I think when I started to, I started working for other people, you know, work with friends and doing similar things to what I was doing within paternity. But it didn't take from me creatively in the same way that it had done with paternity which I think had led on to this almost like this as I'm calling it burnout but you know it's a complex thing it's like I don't really know what it was and it was maybe just again this it was maybe the ending of a cycle prior to getting a new one just I've been in an extended crossover phase

almost yes so yeah I think going from paternity to then working for other people to then starting to feel like okay I want to do my own thing again but it's not it can't be for brands and for other people you know it's got to be something that's got much deeper meaning and so really exploring that through my cycle each month so like really going in and I did I remember doing a lot of walking like I really would just walk I can be a bit of an overthinker so that would be really helpful to just kind of like move things through I guess bring a bit of flow to the ebb and and the cycle really helps with that a great greater sort of the greater cycles too in terms of seasonally like I just really took take took time off in in the winter and just tried to do quite just do a lot less you know

um and and I think in the last six months something shifted where I've almost made a commitment to want to it's not so much that I want to become solely like a menstrual educator but it's that I really appreciate the value of cyclical kind of consciousness cyclical awareness and so now I'm just starting to sort of reweave that together again so in terms of how I can best be of service and how I can support others but also how can I bring in 13 well 10 yeah 12 13 years of my life with paternity which was all about pattern you know looking at pattern in in that deeper way with that deeper lens so yeah the the and the and the cycle's been supporting me through that whole process because I'm just starting to um how how I'm trying to think how I'd how I'd sort of describe it it's like the fundamental pattern yes you know so so if I can if I'm sort of that's my consistent that's my anchor point and then

from there it's like I can build I can build on that but just to kind of come back specifically to some of the teachings of red school you know with things like the dark arts and just the inner that the sort of self-care practices of each of the inner seasons you know they have been so supportive in in this journey in this process and and also like I'd really would like to name um my friend Claire uh Claire Frances Chapman she's been incredibly supportive in this process as has Anna as has like conversations with you Sophie you know so it's this coming together of like these different um different energies and just being free to flow with that and seeing what emerges loose loosening the grip yes you know like that was something that was so

it was so intense with with that with me and Anna within paternity and it's probably why the company did was so successful and but we we had such a sort of tight grip on things like we were seriously going for it and you that's not sustainable yeah no it's a very long answer oh that's beautiful my mind's going off in so many different directions but talking about the grip that we hold like I'm thinking of the big corporation that my husband works for and how much how tightly everyone's holding and how dehumanizing it is and then that Leonard Cohen quote you lose your grip and you slip into the masterpiece nice that's what we're talking about I like that yeah it sounds like a theme of our conversation is cycle awareness innately brings us into community with each other

where we can't hold on so tight because we're in relationship with others they're ebbing and flowing we're adjusting to them and so much more can emerge from that totally yeah that's I mean that's such a nice way of putting it Sophie and much more succinct yeah but I do in in response to your quote I do have to share like I used to have this on my sign off on my paternity email and it's an African proverb and it's if you want to go fast go alone if you want to go far go together and I do feel like that is you know this this this next phase it's that it's like interdependence you know you have to know yourself be in yourself be in right relationship to yourself but it has to be with the other and with nature and with the greater

web of life and and I and I know I deeply know that the cycle allows us to do that so beautifully said well I'm watching this space avidly to see what yeah what emerges through you over these coming years and like particularly what emerges through you over these coming years and like particularly what emerges for you over these two years of the menstruality apprenticeship which for those listening who haven't heard of this yet alexandra and shani have just created a new program for the graduates of the menstruality leadership program to apprentice with them for two years going really more deeply into these um feminine leadership skills the dark arts that you mentioned earlier the the leadership skills that emerge from the practice of cycle

awareness and from menstruality so yeah just in our last couple of minutes what are you most excited for in that apprenticeship process so I mean I'm really excited just for the whole piece because for me it's a real like stepping in it's like I've finally you know I haven't been I haven't studied since my textiles degree in like 2008 you know unofficially so yeah it's it's that feels really exciting to go on this deep dive in within a space that I would say they've self-stated is very emergent you know so it's it's going to be an exploration into what feels like pretty pioneering this sort of menstruality as a profession and and also the legacy of red school so you know that's super exciting for me because I am really

interested in in in that approach you know yeah that kind of pioneering approach and just to name it because the fact is Alexandra is 70 71 now so she's looking to pass the torch on yeah and that's a big part of what this is about yeah exactly but I think for me something that's been so supportive over the many years of like connecting with this the cycle of well awareness work is the menstruality medicine circles that um I guess it would have been Alexandra and Shani that developed that process. You can correct me if I'm wrong there, Sophie. And I really, I've really experienced the value of that. But I also would really love to be able to offer that. And it's that going in, you know, that down and in of inner visions and I suppose just like intuition and like trusting what is coming from inside of us and you know

it links with like dreams and yeah I'm I'm really I'm really excited about learning how to like facilitate that. And yeah, I mean, there's loads of things, but that's specifically because it's just, it's been so supportive for me. And I've actually got a session with Abby this afternoon to do one. Yay. So that's Abby Denubiuk, who's one of the mentors on the Menstruality Leadership Program.

Yeah. She's so great. Yeah. Same. The things that come up in those menstrual medicine circle, like inner journeys are profound and sort of coming back full circle to your full moon dreams from last night. It's like dream time has so much whatever it is, there is this other dimension that exists. we're only just starting to really ignore or honor and acknowledge that as as useful information you know it's important information and again like bring it back to the cycle and the menstrual medicine circles you know it's like it's just helping to um yeah like what's the word like

just put a stake in the ground with that you know it's it's like the witch the witch wound is like finally being healed you know totally I often we could clearly talk for 10 hours we could we must somehow wrap this up but I keep talking about the podcast people we've heard this a few times if they listen that like this is such a big thing to say but maybe you know we're moving from Descartes I think therefore I am to more of what Eve Enzo who wrote the vagina monologues you know I feel therefore I am you know maybe we're inside a huge philosophical movement though people in like 300 years time will look back and go ah this this is cycle awareness was a huge part of ushering in this yeah well I believe that for sure yeah if we make it so let's all keep tracking our cycles

and creating yeah a more sustainable world wow thanks Grace it's been so great to chat with you such a pleasure Sophie maybe we can have a part two and a three and a four and a five down the line definitely definitely yeah no I really appreciate it thank you so much for having me on and yeah I'm really excited for getting started with the apprenticeship you're welcome bye love thanks Sophie lots of love bye thank you for joining me today thank you for being here all the way through to the end of this podcast I would really appreciate it if you would head over to apple or spotify or wherever you're listening to this podcast and leave us a review and rate the podcast. It really goes a long way to getting this podcast out to more people,

particularly if you can leave a review on Apple. Thank you so much. I love being part of this conversation with you, part of this community gathered around this work. If there's anyone that you'd love us to interview, if there are any topics you'd love us to explore, you can always email me at sophie at redschool.net. And that's it for this week. I'll be with you again next week. And until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.