The Menstruality Podcast - 193. Cultivating Resilience and Preventing Burnout in Perimenopause (Jolinda Johnson)

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

When we enter the autumn of our menstruation years in our 40s and start to experience what many call perimenopause, we can easily think we should keep pushing through even though our bodies, minds and emotional landscape are transforming profoundly.  (Alexandra and Sjanie, the co-founders or Red School call this phase the Quickening, or the autumn of our menstruating years). Our guest today specialises in helping women in midlife recover from burnout so they can rise stronger and thrive longer. Jolinda Johnson is the author of Resilience: 10 Ways to Recover from Burnout and Exhaustion, and works as a Life and Health Coach, as well as a Menopause Coaching Specialist. In today’s conversation we explore the four phases of burnout; from feeling wired and tired, to health challenges to full-on exhaustion, all the way to an official burn out diagnosis and major life changes. Jolinda explains how tracking these phases offer us many opportunities for course correction before we find ourselves flat on our back. So this one is for you especially if you’re in perimenopause, but it relevant to anyone experiencing burnout in any life phase.We explore:Jolinda’s definition of burnout, which is chronic stress without recovery, is characterised by exhaustion, cynicism, and decreased capacity for your life roles. What menstrual cycles changes, as well as other health symptoms can show us about our current levels of burnout. Why we need to set better boundaries with ourselves, and how to do it. ---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardyJolinda Johnson: @coachjolinda - https://www.instagram.com/coachjolinda

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for being with us today. So most of us live inside cultures which value productivity above everything else. So it's no

surprise that we can easily keep pushing through even when our bodies and our minds and our emotions are telling us that we need to stop and this can be especially true when we enter the autumn of our menstruating years in our 40s and start to experience what many call perimenopause and what Alexandra and Sharni at Red School call the quickening and the results can be incredibly challenging. Our guest today specializes in helping women in midlife recover from burnout so they can rise stronger and thrive longer. Jolinda Johnson is the author of Resilience, 10 Ways to Recover from Burnout and Exhaustion and works as a life and

health coach as well as a menopause coaching specialist. In today's chat we look at how she describes the four phases of burnout from feeling wired and tired to health challenges to full-on exhaustion all the way to an official burnout diagnosis and some major life changes. Jolinda explains how tracking these phases offers us many opportunities for course correction before we find ourselves flat on our back. So this conversation is for you, especially if you're in your 40s and experiencing perimenopause, but really it's relevant to all of us who are exhausted and want to know how to prevent burnout in any life phase.

So let's get started with the wonderful Jolinda. Well, Jolinda, thank you so much for making the time to join us today on the Mentoriality Podcast. Well, thank you so much for having me, Sophie. It's a pleasure to be here. We always start with a cycle check-in. So I was curious to ask you, you know, you share and teach a lot about perimenopause, about your cycle experience at the moment. Yes, my cycle experience at the moment is very different than it would have been, let's say, two years ago. And that's not simply as the result of being in perimenopause, but also because I made the decision to use a hormonal IUD in the fall of 2023. And that has definitely changed my relationship with my cycle because I went from someone who I really did not have any problems with my menstrual

cycle. So when you talk about the four seasons and the inevitable changes, I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed going through the ebbs and flows and tracking everything. But I reached a point where I needed a reliable form of birth control. And I noticed that my cycle was becoming more unpredictable, as does happen in perimenopause. And I, after much research and discussions, decided that the hormonal IUD was the best choice. And I'm very happy with the experience as a whole. I know that some women do have side effects, but I really do feel like it was the right choice for me. But I, at the same time, miss knowing exactly what's coming.

I've lost that sense of predictability and there are months where I don't have a bleed. So I suspect that based on past experience, I suspect I know where I am in my cycle, but I don't actually have that report card. I always felt like my period was definitely a way for my body to say, hey, this is what's happening. Despite what your mind is telling you, you need to take better care of yourself yeah the pre-mentions come comes back around and shows you exactly you know you need to slow down you've taken too much on or or on the flip side you know every everything's great and um good work so um not having that feedback has been for me the biggest adjustment of going on the IUD but I think overall it's been as I said it's been the right choice.

I'm curious if there are other cycles that you notice yourself tracking in place of the menstrual cycle if you feel connected to the moon for example the seasons yes I do actually a few years ago I became a certified moonologer which is something that I don't actually use in any capacity but I went through this online program just following my interest in the lunar cycle and um i like many women in perimenopause who have had to um let go of that reliable cycle as our hormones change um have found a similar comfort in leaning into the cycles of the moon so yes and i recommend that uh as well as the seasons yeah you know I have really been a proponent of sick little living for years and I feel like as I get older that's something that is I really am quite grateful for that I I can um see myself as as part of a larger tapestry and allow myself to trust in those those ebbs and

flows of the natural cycles as well the moon's been looking especially gorgeous lately and this yes present this i'm just leaning back lazily at the moment i'd love to have a whole conversation with you about moonology that sounds i'm here to talk about perimenopause and burnout which is a hot topic for a lot of the women and people in our community and so you're a menopause coaching specialist and you're also author of resilience yes 10 ways to recover from burnout and exhaustion could you walk us into a bit of your story of how you came to be these things? Well, I would say about seven years ago, when I first started my coaching business back in 2017, my focus was on fertility. But after a couple of years in that world, helping women to maximize their chances of conception through diet, lifestyle, and mindset,

and really loving that work that I did one-on-one with my clients. I became increasingly frustrated that women who had no interest in having children, but who had things like irregular menstrual cycles or a tumultuous relationship with their bodies, the obvious signs of chronic stress. I felt called to help them, but they didn't see me as someone who could work with them because I was so entrenched in fertility. And so then I decided around 2019 to cast a wider net and focus on women's health in general. So my title was Women's Health Coach. And once I did that, I started working with women who were anywhere from their mid-20s to their mid-60s and I started seeing a recurring set of symptoms and let's say larger issues that all had to relate to stress and all of them were high achievers high achieving women in their fields. And I thought there's definitely a pattern here. And the exercises that I was recommending were kind of on repeat. And I was thinking,

this is what's going on. This all has to do with chronic stress and burnout. And at the time, I was in my mid to late 30s, and I didn't really have a relationship with burnout, or so I thought, because the person that I associated with burnout was kind of a very driven corporate type who had way too many things to do and way too little time, was being pulled in a million different directions. And I didn't have that specific background. I also associated with someone who was very high powered for some reason. And I was, you know, a teacher and teachers definitely experienced burnout. But my current, you know, my circumstances then were just like many. I didn't relate to the image in my mind of someone who, who should be burnt out. So I didn't identify with the word. And then I started learning about burnout and what it actually feels like. And that teachers actually have a very high rate of burnout, by the way,

as do many of the caring professions. And I realized, oh my gosh, I've actually burnt out without even realizing it. I didn't have the language for it. That was back in 2012 when my burnout came in the form of my autoimmune disease diagnosis, which many of us find out that we're burned out when we get an autoimmune disease diagnosis. Especially if that is Hashimoto's hypothyroidism, which in my case, it was not, but especially if we're talking about women who are in midlife, that's very typical. And so I am a lifelong learner. And if something catches my attention, then I want to know everything I possibly can about it. of color, burnout as it manifests in other marginalized groups who tend not to talk about it as much, and eventually burnout as it intersects with perimenopause. Because I was thinking all of these symptoms of perimenopause are just exacerbated. They become

worse when we're dealing with chronic stress. And we have so many women who are headed into perimenopause, which is inevitable, that have no idea what's coming for them and this is a period of life which can last 10 to 15 years that again we all know is coming but very many of us approach it from this stance of being proactive and and making changes before we hit a crisis point. And so that's when it really became my mission to specialize in both burnout and perimenopause. And that is how I arrived at my current focus, which is midlife burnout. And it's an interesting thing to be the coach who receives so many women in midlife who are experiencing burnout and to constantly have to hold up that mirror to myself and recognize the places where I'm not setting limits or I'm not

practicing self-care or I'm not leaning into collective care as much as I could. But that's where I currently am on my journey. And I enjoy speaking about it on podcasts like these, of course, corporate talks, my book, which I have a second book in mind. Exciting. Can you tell us the story with your book? Because on your website, you said that your life is best told in your tattoos. Yes. that your life is best told in your tattoos yes one of them was your 12th tattoo which is the last three lines of still I rise by Maya Angelou yes and you say when I got it in the spring of 2022 I had no idea that the conversation I had with my tattoo artist that day would become the

introduction to my first book resilience yes tell us the Well, they reached out to me. Wellbeck Publishing reached out to me in the fall of 2022. And the interesting thing is that I had recently returned from Melbourne, Australia. I used to be a trainer for a life coaching academy there. And I had flown down for the graduation day and I had given a talk on a panel of other life coaches and one of the audience members asked, what's next? And I said, I would really love to write my first book. And then a month later, I got an email saying, we love your content on Instagram and wondered if you'd be interested in writing a book about burnout. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this is, you know, I felt like a master manifester.

I just mentioned a month before on a stage with a microphone in my hand that I would love to write my first book. So if you want to do something really badly just get on a stage somewhere declare it publicly yes uh declare it publicly and um and have witnesses but um interestingly enough they said by the way we need it in six weeks yes so my first book became an experiment on how to write a book about burnout without experiencing burnout. And so I had to put a lot of other things on hold for that time. Fortunately, I think there are some of us who feel like we are always going to write a book. I thought that everyone felt that way, but I've talked to enough people to know that no, not everyone feels like they have, they have a book in them or that they have the goal of writing a book. But I can remember even from, you know, six, seven years old

feeling like I was going to be a published author someday. And so I had a lot of things that I had never shared, pieces of writing that I had accumulated throughout the years that I had never even posted online. But that became the skeleton for resilience and um the next book that i have in mind is going to focus specifically on the experience of midlife burnout and midlife burnout um for those of us who are going through perimenopause um because it's something that I feel like is just hidden in plain sight that so many of us are going through, but that we feel like we shouldn't be going through. We should be able to handle it. despite our body changing in massive, massively significant ways. And a lot of us do struggle with, as human beings in general, we struggle with change, but a lot of us in midlife struggle with navigating this new reality. And I found great comfort in other people's words when I'm trying to make sense of my own struggle. So that's what I would like my next book to be.

So I'm using this podcast as my as my stage and even I don't have a microphone in my hand this time but your listeners can be my witness we are honored to be to play that role would you be able to share your definition of burnout and something I've really appreciated from you is how you name the four different stages of the process, which I think goes a long way to helping people understand, okay, actually I am experiencing burnout, but I just thought you had to be flat on your back in bed for a month in order for it to kind of count somehow. Yeah, exactly. We do that to ourselves all the time. Um, My definition of burnout is chronic stress without recovery. And if you look at the official definition of the World Health Organization, for example, it's characterized by exhaustion, which everyone associates burnout with that feeling of just being flat, of having nothing left in the tank.

Also, cynicism. So if we're talking about burnout in a professional context, it's that feeling of not wanting to engage with work that once excited you, of not wanting to open the laptop, of not wanting to send the email, of just, you know, not wanting to be bothered, tapped out. And then the third characteristic is feeling like, it's called reduced professional efficacy, but basically feeling like you are no longer doing your job as well. And that's when the inner critic loves to take center stage and point out all the things that you could be doing better, all the ways that you've let people down, et cetera. And the thing about burnout is that it does, as you mentioned, it has these four stages. So we actually have many opportunities to course correct. We don't have to wait until we are at the doctors with a diagnosis, for example, or if we are already at the point where we have to take a leave of absence, where we really cannot do anything more but surrender into the rest that our body so desperately needs.

There are a lot of ways, and rest, by the the way, something that we should give ourselves at any point. But the first phase is what's really become normalized as just being, because we're talking about perimenopause and burnout specifically, it's, for me, it's just a part of being a midlife woman. It's the going to bed wired and tired. It's the feeling like you're constantly beyond capacity, but you, you know, it's like, I would love to say no, but I still have a little bit more left. So I'm going to give that to everyone who needs it, whether that's my team at work or my children or my parents or my partner or my pets you know all of these things that we have these commitments competing commitments that all need our time and attention um it's the myself like i have to say so so yeah you've got energy hun you've got some energy use it for you exactly

exactly you have to be i have to give myself a talking to all the time exactly and it's so triggering for a lot of us I mean it's triggering for me sometimes um because I was raised by one of the most selfless women in the world who um would never say no, would always put herself last, and didn't really have boundaries. And definitely boundaries that she modeled for me. So that's something that, you know, for those of us who have children, I think midlife is also a time when we have to figure out what kind of mother am I going to be going forward if we haven't already done that exploration um because I really don't need my son I'm the mother of of an only child um a 10-year-old son, and I really don't need him to see me as a martyr. I don't need him to have that expectation of if he decides to get married one day and have

children, I don't need him to have that expectation of his future partner um and I don't really see how anyone benefits but it can be really triggering to step away from that model it's like it just feels like the water that we're swimming in especially because women especially are expected to do this unpaid labor like absolutely but for the older like especially as we enter midlife we can be that sandwich generation can't we where we're taking care of older parents or relatives and I watch myself do it all the time like why am I the one that knows everything that's going on at nursery aid can do that too you know what what's going on and as I've learned from educators of color and black women often the burden is even placed even more on women of color on black women there's a lot that we're swimming upstream against culturally here isn't there

absolutely yeah and I really noticed that with the interactions I have with my ex-husband because I do not take responsibility for things that he needs to be responsible for. We've been divorced for seven years, but as our son gets older, you know, I decided that it's not my responsibility to remind him of things, chase after him for things. He is perfectly capable of of he receives the same emails from the school he receives the same he's in the same text message groups so if he doesn't want to participate then it's not my job to chase him up on that um but so many of us so many of us who are who who are still in those relationships, we'll take that on. Yeah. And I think that's, I'll get back to the stages in a minute. But I think

that's one of the things that really does contribute to burnout in midlife is that, you know, these little things, same thing, you know, you see the same thing in physics, but, you know, the fatigue, you know, these constant minor stresses that wear us down until eventually we just can't anymore. And that's where you see the, you know, in addition to the hormonal changes that are supporting this, the irritability, the snapping out of nowhere, the need for complete space away from people that you love. I have no idea what you're talking about. No, I mean, I don't relate to that at all. If my partner listened to that, he was listening. And if he were flying the wall, he'd just be laughing his head off because there's some times where I've always been someone who likes to have her own time and her own projects. I'm very much an introvert in that I get energy from being alone. But in this season of life that's even

more exaggerated and I knew that that was coming um that's definitely not something that's specific to me maybe you can write a book next after the next one you can write one for introverts in very menopause yes exactly um but going back to the stages so um we have you know the wired and tired feeling that um the capacity to constantly do more um because you know you are a lot of us are addicted to stress as well so we like that feeling uh that you know of pushing ourselves and proving ourselves through the struggle um and being the one who um is the go-to person brings a lot of meaning it brings a lot of meaning exactly and we tie our worth to our productivity and how much we can take on um but then we you know at the end of the day we numb ourselves with the doom scrolling or the ice cream or the Netflix or all three.

You know, a lot of us turn to the very things that are making our physical stress as well as our perimenopause symptoms worse, like the caffeine and the alcohol and the sugar to modulate our stress response. Because we feel like, well, if I can, you know, I can get through the day, I can get through everything I can push through if I just have the cookie at four, four o'clock. Or if I just have the drink of the, you know, the glass of wine or two, once everyone else is in bed. I've got lots of energy as long as I have the coffee as soon as I get up and then an hour after, and then, you know, in the these things that we just kind of take for granted as part of modern day living, but they're all signs that your body would like you to slow down and start paying attention.

Most of us don't. And so that's when we go into the second phase. And that's where even before perimenopause, you might notice changes to your cycle. has chronically heavy periods, painful periods, really difficult time with PMS or PMT, any history of fibroids, you know, these are all things that can be worsened as a result of chronic stress, because when cortisol is chronically high in the years before the late stages of perimenopause, estrogen is also going to be higher. Progesterone is going to be lower. And so that's also going to contribute to that feeling of irritability, increased anxiety, the typical symptoms of estrogen dominance that, you know, along with what I just mentioned regarding the heavier periods and the PMS, the water retention,

the breast tenderness. This is also where you might see digestive issues, the irritable bowel, or even just, you know, kind of fluctuating constipation or diarrhea, gas, that feeling of heaviness. These are all warning signs that something needs tending to. But again, a lot of us, depending on our relationship with our bodies, because so many of us, as women, especially, we're conditioned to ignore our body signals, feel like our bodies have some kind of agenda other than just keeping us alive. You know, my body has betrayed me, for example, and we need to combat these things. You know, we use such violent language towards our bodies. And even in perimenopause, when it feels like they're really trying to make things difficult, our bodies are simply trying to get through this time of change as best it can with the things that we are supplying it with. But our body is never intentionally working against us.

I'm going to pause my chat with Jolinda just for a couple of minutes to share an invitation with you. Whether you're in the quickening perimenopause in your 40s or 50s, or if you're in a different life phase and want to get to know your needs and how they shift through the cycle month, Alexandra and Sharni, the co-founders of Red School, would love to invite you to join their cycle power course it's their most comprehensive menstrual cycle awareness course ever and it's a really powerful way to connect to your cyclical intelligence it's designed to work for you whether you have regular cycles or irregular cycles and at any life stage you can explore the course at redschool.net forward slash cycle power. And here's a story from Jasmine about her experience of the course. She says, I've been in a huge chamber of personal transition going through an eviction, relocation and harsh wake up calls.

But menstrual cycle awareness has really held me throughout, an anchor in darkness and light. I wanted the answers on how to have less unsettled crossover days. I now know that only I have the answers and to find them takes rest and listening to myself, my needs and setting boundaries to allow self-care, revelation and to prevent burnout burnout it's beautiful to be part of something so radical and yet so natural thank you so much for sharing that story jasmine so if you're intrigued by cycle power you can find out more at redschool.net forward slash cycle power and let's get back to joelinda's wisdom about how we can approach our bodies and symptoms in perimenopause you know for example I'm feeling tired I'm not supposed to feel tired so I'm going

to push through that feeling of tiredness instead of saying no to something and going for a nap. And, you know, I say that because I, you know, thinking back five years ago, I remember doing that myself or it was, I just needed to slow down, but instead I took on more to show that I did not need to slow down. So, you know, as going back to what I said earlier, it's very interesting being a burnout coach because you constantly have to examine your own choices as well. And I definitely, you know,

speak from my own personal experience and those experiences of my clients. And so the third phase, if you choose to not make any changes, that's when things really start to ramp up. When it comes to the exhaustion, especially a lot of my clients don't care about the stress.

They care about the exhaustion. So especially if you're a high performer and all of a sudden you are losing your edge, you're being affected by the brain fog, which as most of your listeners probably know is another symptom of perimenopause. You feel like things are just becoming increasingly more difficult. Um, thyroid function might also be suffering at this point. So you might be noticing, um, you know, things like, um, increased weight gain or, um, hair loss, um, dry skin, um, irregular periods, which again, if it depending on where you are in the perimenopause cycle, irregular periods are kind of, you know, absolutely part of it. But let's say that you are not even 40. And you're noticing that your periods are spaced really far apart, you know, that should be a sign

that something is not quite right. And then the final to make some very serious choices going forward, or you might have a chronic disease that you need to manage for life. That's also my case. But fortunately, when I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis in 2012, that's a form of spinal arthritis. My symptoms actually gotten much better since 2012, largely as a result of my willingness to lower my stress and support my body. But still it's very confronting when you realize, okay, this is the end of the road. Um, I cannot keep going like this. And some of us have to reach this point more than once. You know, I, I've had clients who before working with me have said, I've, I've been in the hospital already.

And as soon as I got better, I just went back to my same patterns. And so, you know, it's not as though burnout happens. A lot of us will stay in the cycle until we decide that enough is enough and I can't keep doing this you know I think that's that's the the thing that I that I hear over and over is you get to a point where it's I cannot keep going like this yeah it makes me think of the collective care piece that you were just bringing in like the more of us that are speaking about this helping each other working working together, so that we don't have to hit the rock bottom. I hit my own rock bottom in like, when I was 28. So early, but it made me learn. And it hasn't happened since, although I've got close. We need each other, don't we? Together, we can change. Well, this is a big, this is a big goal, but I do believe it's true. Together we can change the systems that are driving us to keep going in these patterns.

You know, there's so much in the world affirming us for our pushing. So we have to affirm each other for our resting, right? Yes, and absolutely. And thank you for highlighting that piece of collective care, because I posted something a couple, I think it was a couple of months ago saying self-care is a sham. And of course, self-care is vitally important, but it's a sham to think that you can get out of this all by yourself, that it's just a matter of you not doing enough. One of the things that will massively impact your risk of burnout is how much support you have around you. How much you can carry in this season of life has to do with your systems and networks of support. And unfortunately, a lot of the things that, that frustrates me is that, um,

when you look at the model of midlife that a lot of us have been sold, you know between like 45 and 55 who has the house and the two kids and the partner who she's probably bored with but she's still in that relationship um maybe she doesn't like her job but she's you know, senior something and has a lot of responsibility. And that's not true for so many of us. So many of us get to midlife and for whatever reason, you know, we chose our own sanity over our marriage. And so we're, you know, we're divorced. We don't have financial stability because we didn't make investments, you know, that we wish we would have. We don't have property. We are expected to care for our children and our parents. And no one is actually giving us you know giving that care to us and then in the middle of it we have perimenopause which is just completely shifting the way that we see ourselves and taking away the capacity that we once had to face these challenges and it's something that we don't talk about enough but that's the reality

for a lot of people um and of course that contributes to burnout yes and that's why i say burnout is chronic stress without recovery, because midlife is a time when you might not have those opportunities for recovery, because someone else is constantly asking you to show up, as you always have. And until you say I'm not available, people are going to continue doing that yes boundaries boundaries you're you're very practical in your sharing like you wrote this book ebook um I was just looking at five big mistakes that even brilliant women in midlife make it's so good it's so clear I just recommend that everyone reads that but um you were very practical and you named lots of different

you know course corrections or you know ways we can approach this I'd like to ask a couple of them but firstly just a question that's really relevant for me so I'm 43 so I'm on my way into this terrain and I what I'm noticing is I find it really hard to reach out for support because all the other women around me are also dealing with so much and I wondered what you'd say for to those of us who like I've got good friends but I'm like I really don't want to like just call them out of the blue because I know they're putting their kid to bed or I know they've got that thing they're doing tonight and it's like what can we do if we're all in you know we're all inside this together how can we do if we're all inside this together? How can we make little course corrections?

That's one of the reasons why coaches are so great. Yes. But we really do have to be willing to, if we feel like we're not getting it from our friend group, look at what kind of professional support might be possible, whether that is coaching or therapy or counseling. But, you know, that's not, whether that's not appropriate or just not possible for you. When you're thinking about your intimate relationships, think of what kind of support do I actually need right now? Is it that I need fun and connection? You know, like the opportunity to just not be responsible

for another human being and have a good laugh? Is it that I have a really specific problem that I need someone who has experience with this problem to help me solve? Is it that I just need time to vent with no solution, but for someone to witness me and hold space? And I think when we get clear on what it is that we actually need, then it becomes easier to identify the person that would be available for those things. If you know that you have a friend who is stretched really thin and dealing with her own chronic stress and burnout, then she's probably not the person to have a venting session with, you know. Or if you feel like she's the one who would really understand you, then give her a heads up, you know, I have this thing that's really been on my mind. but i know that you've been really busy lately do you

think we could find some time you know this week or next to you know talk on the phone meet up in person some people don't have i think that's the other thing is that not everyone has the capacity to meet up in person but they might have the capacity to talk on the phone. Yes. You know, and so to also be open to what people are available for. Yeah. Some people love leaving voice messages. Some people, you know, like if, if you leave a, I have clients who share this with me and, you know, I have a friend who just constantly leaves me voice messages and I don't have time to sit and listen to voice messages. I would much rather have a text or an email, you know? And so it's also be willing to communicate those things. Um, cause a lot of us, you know, instead of

what, you know, we don't want to feel like we're being a bad friend. We don't want to feel like we're letting someone down. So instead of, you know, clearness, clarity is kindness. Instead of being clear, we either don't respond or we respond with a hint of resentment, you know. And so it's also, it's a two-way street. It's one, recognizing what is it that I actually am in need of right now? And who is that, who's the best person to support me with that need? And then if you're on the other side, if you're the other person, what is my actual capacity for support?

And how can I communicate that with kindness beautiful which brings me on to boundaries which is such an important piece but also I'll also say I think multi-generational support is really key isn't it like I'm so I'm so blessed to have a mom who will listen to me go on and on and on and I feel so grateful to have that thank you mom not that you listen to this but thank you well and my mom is the same but you know as I get older I realize that she also needs that space to just listen to to you know the the minutiae of her day you know, the, the minutia of her day, you know, the things that are not even, um, you know, they're, they're not stressful. They're not, um, even though she, you know, my, both of my parents are around the age of 80. And so one of the things that they're really dealing with is seeing their, their friends pass on. Um, and so of course they have major things like that but a lot of

times it's just you know she just wants to chat and sometimes I'm tempted to to say you know in my head I don't have time for this yeah but then I say wait a minute if I don't have time to listen to the woman who has committed her life to loving me what do I not have time like what do I have time for you know and I'm not going to get this back yes um and so that's one of the shifts that I've really made in the last few years you know I I prioritize my people and um you know I'm not as available for some other people. Um, but if it's, it's my, you know, my parents, my son, my partner, and my close group of friends, um, you know, that, that is very important to me. Yeah.

And so I will, I will create that space and on the other side of it, create that space for myself, you know, and I think that's the thing that we have to remember in midlife is that if you are creating this time for another person, then you have to carve out an equal amount of time for yourself. Maybe not immediately after, but somewhere in the day, somewhere in the week, you need to reclaim that time for you. Because if not, you're going to end up feeling drained and resentful. And that's not a good formula for anyone. So I sometimes challenge my clients, like, okay, if you're going to schedule in, you know, two hours for, for this person on Sunday, then where are you scheduling two hours for yourself later in the week? And when I asked that, they're like, what? I'm allowed two hours,

but that two hours with that other person was for myself. And I said, okay, check in with me after afterwards and let me know how you feel. Does it feel, did it feel restorative? Or did you feel like you needed a break and inevitably it's well, yeah, I would have loved to have a break, but I didn't schedule in. I was like, yes, this is the reason. It feels like what I'm hearing you say is there's two sides to boundaries. There's what you're saying no to, and then there's what you're saying yes to.

Yeah. And there's the boundary you set with others, but I think what is even more of a challenge is the boundaries that we set with ourselves absolutely yeah because we also um say yes to a lot of things that we know are not serving us that no one else is in charge of you you know, I mean, if you are staying up to look at your phone instead of putting it on airplane mode and going to bed at the same time, that's a, that's a self boundary. Yes. And a lot of us do that because we feel like we don't get any other opportunity to just be, to just zone out,

um, that we have to steal that time at the end of the day. Yeah. Um, even to like, you know, more extreme extent, I've had clients who it's very typical to wake up between the hours of two and four in the morning. Yeah. And I had a client last year who would say, well, I can kind of count on waking up between two and four in the morning. So that's when I do all of the things that I feel guilty about doing during the day. Oh, yeah. It's like, you're okay. So two to four in the morning is not me time. That is not the time that you can have fun. Is that not just evidence of like toxic yes patriarchal

capitalist colonized culture right there like that's the only time I get for me is when I when my insomnia wakes me up at two till four oh gosh but but if you are constantly responsible for everyone else and you feel like you have to hold it all together, it can also be a time where you feel like I'm breaking the rules. Yeah. And that also shows up with food choices. only time that I can give myself a treat or give myself an escape or be you know depending I don't think that food should have any morality but a lot of us do have this morality around food I'm being naughty yeah oh real I had to get really I got luckily because of cyclical living I really wintered this winter I took three weeks and two weeks we were in Scotland in the middle of nowhere it was absolutely amazing and I put my phone down for basically the

whole time and I went oh my god I have to put my phone down I don't want this in my life I don't like it and since then I haven't been looking at my phone in the same way and I've also got clear on the time when I have the most energy is like between half five and seven in the morning. I'm going to take that time for me. I'm going to stop staying up late doing things that I don't really enjoy. Go to bed early. Get that time for me. It's changed everything. Yes. And I'm with you on that. I love that time of day. And it's been a delicate conversation with my partner because he has a very different rhythm and he loves to be in bed and he loves to sleep in and I do not and you know I had to tell him

just like you are an extrovert and you get energy from other people, I get energy from being alone. And if I don't have my time alone, then everyone else suffers. So I need to be awake, you know, a reasonable compromise for you to like, accept that I will be out of bed early in the morning so that I can have that restorative time for me. And, um, now he gets it. Now he gets it. I love that. I love that when I'm the only one awake you know when he's asleep my son's asleep the city I live in Barcelona the city is asleep um and it's just me with my book or my knitting or you know my tea and my journal whatever oh good yeah very restorative time yes I wish that for every woman going through perimenopause every woman recovering from burnout thank you so much um

Jolinda this has been really really refreshing and grounding and just I feel relief in my body just oh yeah to hear what you're saying if um those listening are interested in hearing more about you and connecting with you where's where's the best place that they can do that they can go to my website jolinda johnson.com um where they can download that um ebook that you mentioned um the five five big mistakes that even brilliant women in midlife make, or on Instagram at Coach Jolinda, or LinkedIn at Coach Jolinda. And I would love to connect. My DMs are always open. And it's really been such a joy speaking about this with you Sophie so thank you again for having me you're so welcome and best of luck with your new creative baby thank you

thank you for outing it here on the podcast groundbreaking news thanks Jolinda take care hope you have a great day hey thanks for tuning in all the way through to the end i hope that that conversation has inspired you in some ways to claim more rest and uh hey thanks for being with us all the way through to the end i hope you enjoyed that conversation i hope it inspired you to claim your rest and your boundaries whatever it is that you're needing in your life at the moment it would be wonderful if you're enjoying this podcast if you could go to apple podcasts and rate the podcast. Please give us a five star rating. That'll be amazing. And leave a review. It really helps the podcast to reach more people.

OK, that's it for this week. I'll be with you again next week. Thank you so much for being part of the community gathered around this podcast. And yeah, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.