The Menstruality Podcast - 211. The Transformation of Menopause: Stepping into our Responsibility to Life (Jane Hardwicke Collings)

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

It’s world menopause day later this month, and throughout October we’ll be sharing on social media about how we can rewrite the cultural narrative of menopause. On October 21st - 23rd, Alexandra and Sjanie would like to invite you to join them for their free three-day online menopause event: How Menopause Awakens Your Power. Their online course, Menopause: The Great Awakener starts on October 31st - you can register for the free event and find out more about the course at redschoolmenopause.comToday’s bonus episode is a replay of Jane Hardwicke Collings’ conversation with Alexandra for the Wise Power Series, and it’s called - The Transformation of Menopause: Stepping into our Responsibility to Life. Jane is a teacher, author, former homebirth midwife and creator of the School of Shamanic Womancraft, and in the conversation she shares how she prepared for menopause, the gifts it gave her of intuition, vision, confidence and courage, and the new responsibility she feels post-menopause - to be the archetypal grandmother stepping into her power and using it for the good of all, and the earth.We explore:How menopause is the most transformational process we can experience. Jane shares all it required from her; the presence, the energy, the leaning in, the stamina, the self care, as well as the size and magnitude of the transformation, hormonally, physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually.How to take care of yourself through menopause; including strength training, reducing stress, reducing alcohol, learning nervous system regulation practices, and paying real attention to your mind chatterHow Jane’s intuition was enhanced by menopause, awakening a new visionary capacity and skill in receiving downloads of information.---Register for our free three-day menopause event: How Menopause Awakens Your Power on October 21st-23rd---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardyJane Hardwicke Collings: @janehardwickecollings - https://www.instagram.com/janehardwickecollings

Welcome to the menstruality podcast where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexander and Sharny, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers, and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Today's the first of five special bonus replay episodes,

which we're going to be sharing once a day, every day this week, to kick off our month of menopause at Red School. It's World Menopause Day later this month and throughout the whole of October, we'll be sharing on social media about how we can rewrite the cultural narrative of menopause. On October 21st to 23rd, Alexander and Sharnie would like to invite you to join them for their free three-day online menopause event, how menopause awakens your power. And their online course, Menopause the Great Awakener, starts on October the 31st. You can register for for the free event and find out more about the course at Red Schoolmenopause.com.

Okay, today's bonus episode is a replay of Jane Hardwick Collings, the amazing Jane Hardwick Collings conversation with Alexandra for the Wise Power series. It's called The Transformation of Menopause Stepping into Our Responsibility to Life. Jane is a teacher, an author, a former home birth midwife,

and creator of the School of Shamanic Womancraft. And in the conversation, she shares how she prepared for menopause, the gifts it gave her of intuition, vision, confidence and courage. And the new responsibility she feels, post-menopause, to be the archetypal grandmother, stepping into her power and using it for the good of all and for the good of the earth. It's a remarkable conversation. It's such a gift. I hope you feel nourished by it. So I'll hand you over to these two warm and funny and incredibly wise elders, Alexandra. and Jane. And today I am with the wonderful Jane Hardwick Collins. Jane is the founder of the School of Charmannic Womancraft and was a home birth midwife for 30 years.

And she says, my own births have taught me who I am and what I am capable of. My menopausal experience has taught me to focus on preparing for the great, great grandchildren. Oh, yes, Jane, yes. And you, Jane, have just released another book. I have. You have. You're a new mum again. I know.

Oh. And you, well, both of us, because I'm clutching art. I've got a copy of a new book, you know, of which you did a lovely, lovely testimonial for us. Thank you for that. So, yeah, so we're both proud new mums together. We are. Isn't that exciting? So let me just give the title of your new book, Jane.

Blood Rights, the Spiritual Practice of Monstration. All right, Jane. So I really want to feel into this magnificent thing called menopause, what it can liberate in us. And I'm going to begin actually with a dream just because it was so strong and it was about you. This is what was so funny. Yeah, I've never dreamt about you before and it was two nights ago. I had this great dream. So I thought I would just begin with this.

Heaven knows what reason, but it was so vivid. But there I was in your world. So I was at your house, at your land. And this was, it was just the, I'm not going to tell the whole dream. It was very long complicated, but there was this magnificent entrance to your house. It was a great wall of stone, like a sort of cliff edge with water, like a water, like a waterfall and this was the entrance you came up to it and you had this magnificent waterfall there were lights behind the water and you sort of entrance your house from either side

but the thing was making me laugh but i'm going geez i've come because it was for this interview and i was thinking oh i've come i've come all the ways it's the southern highlands you live in in news i've come all the way to australia for this interview wow that was that was easy so there I was on your land so I'm going to imagine being on your land with you oh wow it was rather amazing actually it was a very involved dream but the fact that I was in Australia again with you I was so excited by that yes so here I am on this land with you and we are going to engage in this conversation about menopause and what it's liberated in you.

So maybe I should begin with that question of what you feel menopause gave you, James. Well, I think like without wanting to sound like a predictable answer, but transformation, basically. Yes, we'll unpack that word. Yeah. It is. It is transformation. Yeah, keep going. Well, I was going to say that, and I've said this so many times, but as a midwife, I didn't think there could possibly be anything more transformational than giving birth until I went through menopause. Wow, that is a powerful statement. Now, you see, I haven't given birth, so I can't compare. But when I think about birth, I think, geez, that's pretty life-death stuff, you know. Yeah. Yeah, the life-death stuff. But in terms of how you have to show up, you know, the presence required, well, that I felt my

menopause experience required of me, the presence required, the energy and the like leaning in was also like similar to birth, but over such a much longer period of time. So the stamina required and the self-care required and all the things, the actual sort of size and magnitude of the transformation is more than birth, I think, for me. I believe you. Goodness knows, you've given birth a number of times and you've sat with so many. Yeah. You know your oats.

And yes, it's profound, really. Yeah. And like the transformation that happened for me was like in the nick of time, really. You know, like it was really all the things that needed to change in my life that did. Like it was kind of like in most cases with each of the things, it was like finally I'm going to face it or address it or stop it or do something. about it so it was me dealing with like well it's kind of like a next level transformation so lots and lots of inner work required and without the calming effects of progesterone and the

energy of estrogen so like next level healing and personal growth and evolution basically like you know that quote from dr christian northrop that everything that you've swept under the carpet comes out at menopause. So I just had that experience. I have to say, I have to second that. I really do. I'm thinking of the word exposure. I was really exposed to myself in the way I had never been before. And I'm really, I really want to just name those words you used because they're everything here. It required huge stamina. Yeah, and we'll come back to that, I think.

And presence and leaning in, you have to stay with yourself. And in a way, I want to say you have to stay and keep believing in yourself, that there's something here, there's something here. but let's I just want to just go with that word stamina because what when you're talking about stamina what are you talking about here well in the in the way that I would think of stamina that we would use to describe say getting having the energy to maintain yourself and whatever you

have to do through a period of time that in this case goes further than you might wish. So just hanging in there and not like not giving up, you know. And when I say giving up, I mean like, fuck this, I can't do this. I'm not going to do this. I think instead of giving up, what's required is a giving in and like a giving over. What I felt I really needed to do and what the stamina

I needed to call on was to stay with the process. So that's not an unfamiliar kind of concept to me as a midwife because like, you know, staying with the contractions and staying with the process. So the stamina is to stay true to the path and, well, that leaning in as well. So in that way, I think it's really necessary to prepare for menopause so that you do have this strength and stamina.

And I think that the biggest thing that helped me, and we'll probably get into this kind of thing later, but my stamina was supported, my leaning in, my everything was supported by me actually really trusting the process. Like I didn't think I was broken. I didn't think there was something wrong with me. Honestly, I feel so moved when you say that. I could almost weep now because I mean in a sort of holy sense, you know, because that is the message I want every person going through menopause to trust, to trust, to

to trust the process to trust that they are okay that that is what you've got to come out of menopause with the knowing of your okayness and it's forged it is forged in facing that shadow it's forged in facing the shadow within oneself and yes you talked about not giving up but giving in and that's those very precise words i think there are moments where you want to go fuck it i'm out of here i mean that it just happens but you have to come back again you have to come back again to yourself and the giving in is it's a form of giving up but you're giving up to yourself. You're not giving up to hopelessness or it's all over,

all, you know, all the sort of societal kind of negativities about menopause. But it's dare, I think it's really daring to believe that menopause is on your side and is taking you somewhere really. powerful and important very powerful and important beautifully said yeah wow so there is another thing there is another thing that menopause gave me yes and that was freedom from contraception yes although there's a grey area for a while isn't that There is, yes, that dear change of life, baby. Freedom from Congress.

Actually, we should just say something about that because this is, it's so amazing that, isn't it? I love that. Although the decreased libido, like it didn't match up, but we'll talk about that. However, I was looking forward to that aspect, you know? Like, that was like a real carrot even. once i get through this at least at least that yeah so um let's just really know that that

so there's a while when you're coming into metaphors where you actually have to be really on it with contraception because you can have these sort of spontaneous you know occasional ovulations in there and there's many a woman person that's had um you know that you know, just before metapause peepy. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I actually, I actually stopped bleeding.

I stopped ovulating as, you know, is commonly the case. And then I eventually stopped bleeding. And then 18 months later, whilst I was on the train, going in the channel between London and France, yes, ovulated. 18 months left to my last period. I ovulate and I thought, oh, wow. Okay, if that was real, then I'll bleed when I land home in Australia, and I did. So I had that 18 months later.

Actually, I had a funny story too around that. I'd gone two years without a bleed. And then I thought, I think I'll do the deer exercise, you know, that dais practice. I thought, it's good, it nourishes chi. And I thought, it'll be good, I'll nourish cheese in my way. I did it religiously every day for two weeks and then I just lost interest and then I spotted fertile mucus. I thought interesting and two weeks later I had the most exquisite bleed and then I repeated it for three for two more bleeds and they never started. I know that's how powerful

that Taoist exercises. Wow. Yeah. Far out. I know. Far out. Well, I brought it on, but and you, I mean, that's amazing. Maybe because I was up to the water or something. Yeah. The compression. I don't know. Yeah. Okay, so we're really saying first you've got to really pay attention to, you know, just because you stopped bleeding for a long time doesn't mean there might not be the stray operation in there.

Exactly, exactly. And then there comes a moment where you know you're kind of home and dry and you don't, you are free from contraception. Yeah. And, you know, like that whole, that whole piece that we're just talking about now is fine if you've already connected with your menstrual cycle and you understand when you're ovulating and all of that kind of stuff. But I find that in my work with women around menopause, so many women,

sadly get to menopause or in their perimenopausal journey, having never actually connected with their cycle, so no idea about ovulation and how to tell and all of that. So, you know, I feel like it's a really important thing to do before menopause comes, if you haven't already, to just understand the menstrual cycle. Yes, let's actually come to that piece now, because we were talking, or you mentioned earlier, about preparation. We were talking about stamina and the need to prepare for menopause. And we have a section in our book, Wise Power, where we talk about getting fit for menopause.

And we literally mean get physically fit. That's one aspect of it. But we're also meaning getting fit in the sense of really it's cycle awareness, you know, really practicing cycle with getting. And it's about building the muscle of kindness with yourself. you know, connecting with yourself and not, yeah, not turning up at menopause, disconnected. But I'm curious what, you may say the same things, well, obviously, but when you think of that

word, prepare for menopause, what do you say to people coming up to menopause? Well, I say train for it, like, you know. Train for it, yes. Train for it, yeah, you know, so like do weight-bearing exercise regularly so that you're getting strong bones, strong muscles around your bones and that weight bearing exercise increases bone density and all of that kind of thing. So actually train for it. And also I suggest that in preparation for menopause that women do whatever they can to

reduce the amount of stress in their lives. So, you know, like therefore reducing cortisol and therefore reducing the busyness of the liver, so to speak, so that the men. menopause transition of balancing the hormones as you're going down, they're going down, that the liver can focus on that rather than having to prioritize cortisol as a poison, and also to stop drinking alcohol, especially wines and champagne. And if you want to drink alcohol, drink spirits because they're clean. Wow, that is so useful.

Actually, Laura Bryden's very big on the alcohol thing. She has two things, she says. Stop alcohol and take magnesium. Oh, yeah, yeah, magnesium for sure. Yeah, but yeah, it's really good hearing from you because you know your stuff around this. And yes, this thing about stress is everything, actually. It's sort of top of my list.

You just can't afford to turn up a menopause, overstretched or overstressed. but you've really got to learn very good practices, you know, slowing down your life, but learning really good practices for managing your nervous system. It's just absolutely baseline medicine for a good menopause. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, and train, yeah, train, train, train, get strong, strong. Train for menopause, get fit for menopause.

Jane, what, I'm going to ask the question that I asked right at the beginning. What has it given you, apart from freedom from contraception? That transformation, but the powers, the powers. Yes, I want you to hear. Okay, all right, well, yeah, so definitely, definitely increased intuition. Yes. Absolutely. Like, I really noticed that.

Yes. And also visionary capacity. Like I feel like I can envision things with a, it's just different. Maybe more far reaching or expansive or maybe it's just less doubt or whatever. but definitely that. And I'm prioritising, one of the things I've, it's gifted me is the realization that I have to and then the actual doing of prioritizing myself and self-care. So, you know, I've got, we've got four children between us.

They're all grown up now. There's three grandsons and a granddaughter on the way. and running the school and, like, trained as a midwife. It's all about service, service, service. And so I realized through menopause that I need to switch that on to myself as well. So self-care, time for self. And the other thing that I have noticed is that I receive ideas more, more. You know, like I could go for a walk,

think, okay, I've got to write an article on birth trauma, and then I can be walking along and either recording into my phone or writing on my piece of paper, and it just all comes. So I love that. I love that. Isn't that special? And another thing I feel like I've been gifted or a power or capacity that I now have is a big picture perspective. Like I had that before, but I have it in a different way.

now. Like it's actually plays a bigger role in decision making or whatever than it might have before that. And I feel like I have more courage and I feel like I am braver and that I have more confidence. And I so love that. I used to get really nervous when I did stuff, and I don't anymore, and I'm so glad. It's such a relief. I'm such a relief. Such a relief that, isn't it? I'm going to pause the conversation with Alexander and Jane for a moment to share a couple of invitations with you. So it's World Manipause Day later this month, and

throughout October, we're going to be sharing on social media about how we can rewrite the cultural narrative of menopause. And on October the 21st to the 23rd, Alexandra and Shawnee are going to be hosting a free three-day online menopause event called How Menopause Awakens Your Power. And their online course, Menopause the Great Awakener, starts on October the 31st. You can register for the free event and find out more about the course at Red School menopause.com. That's red schoolmenopause.com. Here's a story from Fiona B about her experience of Menopause the Great Awakener. Discovering Red School as I walk the path into menopause has brought such sacred depth to my life and show me what this initiation is truly all about and indeed the magnitude of

this life initiation. The space that's created and nurtured in Red School is incredibly honoring and has felt like a safe refuge to explore myself without judgment. It's changed my relationship with myself and given me an enormous sense of hope, encouragement and positive anticipation of what awaits me in my final trimester of life and crowning wise elder years. I'm going to really name what you have said there.

you know these are superb powers beautiful beautiful powers visionary envisioning intuition this capacity for just receiving ideas yes and having this big picture perspective you know we talk about in our book you know how menopause menopause is literally expanding your consciousness you know

you are and it's like you just have this bigger capacity for knowing and seeing and feeling it's like everything is being opened up and of course that's a responsibility and I always think that menopause all that training

menopause is a training to handle all that that um all that stamina that you spoke of and you know the importance of just staying with the process because you're i don't quite like this phrase but i'm going to say you're building the hardwiring you're building the hardwari to be able to handle this level of kind of light coming into your system of information and also responsibility because I think that's really a big piece, the responsibility. Isn't it? Yeah.

I feel like... Keep going. Yeah, I feel like post-menopause is a place that we step into where things have changed in so many ways. And we don't have the heights and depths of the men's body. cycle that we did. We have a shorter wavelength as we shift with the lunar cycle, say, and that our children are probably grown up, although many women still have little people or looking after their grandchildren or whatever, but there is a spaciousness that does arise, like a, what

am I going to do now kind of thing, you know, like, and many of us are already. doing what we're going to do and all of that kind of thing. But I feel like the responsibility postmenopause is, as I said in what you quoted in the beginning, that menopause has taught me that I need to do what I can to help and prepare for the great, great grandchildren. So I feel like that's the responsibility of the menopausal woman to be the grandmother. And whether you have your own grandchildren or not, it's not the thing. It's the archetype of the grandmother. And the grandmother has responsibilities to care for the children, her children, the children, the grandchildren, and the earth and the animals.

And I feel like that often is awoken more post-maniposally when women actually really, well, not even dig deeper, but stop looking for, how can I be how I was before? It's not that. It's like, how can I be the woman. the earth needs now that I love to say that, you know, we need to be the women the earth needs now and the postmenopausal women. I have this fantasy, this dream that the grandmothers unite and create the grandma army and the grandma army, and I have to excuse myself, I'm Aries Moon and Aries Rising, so Warrior S energy is very dominant in me. So grandma army. And imagine

that, you know, like we know that was the way in many of the eight, you know, you know, know, old tribes of the First Nations people, the Grandmother Council. We need that back. So I feel like that's our responsibility. The grandmothers need to rise up and step into their power and use it for the good of all and the earth. It's magnificent what you're saying. I'm with you. I've got Ares rising, so I've got no more.

Okay. I've got no more in there. Yes. It's, yes, we step into a role of responsibility now. And it's not, it's not burdensome. It's, it doesn't feel burdensome. It feels like this is what I do. This is what I must do. And it's not an argument. And, you know, we talk of, in our talk of getting over yourself at menopause, you finally get over yourself. You know, I often joke now, I can sometimes feel my, you know, ego kick off and really. And I go to myself, really, really? You really? You want to just get over yourself, though. It's very easy to, actually. Well, easier than before. It's a whole lot easier than before. It really, really is. It's extraordinary, actually.

And that's the liberation that menopause can give us. That's the liberation. It liberates us. Here's the irony. At menopause, you find yourself finally. If you can hang in there, you finally find yourself. And it is the sweetest, most wonderful experience. Because when I say find yourself, it's really accept yourself.

you see it and you feel it and you go yeah yeah and it's that finally you can rest in who you are in that moment of really finding yourself you're freed from your kind of small self and that's when and that's when you can be really available for something much bigger and you know you spoke earlier about this visionary capacity and this capacity to receive ideas I think of the vessel of ourselves being so much bigger so there's so much we're so much more available definitely in so many ways in like every way

in every way yes so much more available to all sorts of forces and you know I often speak of the word undefended, becoming the undefended self, that's the thing that's important for me. As in you're not defending yourself? Yes, yes. And it's, so it's a very brave thing to do and I'm, you know, not always very good at it, but that's, but menopause sort of sets you up for that. But it is to be, it's this permeability to life to serving something bigger than my myself but that undefended state is just allows me to know more because you talked

about intuition I agree with you it's sort of like a normal faculty now it's like a faculty like my thinking or my feeling you know why or whatever you don't me what other faculties I have it's just something that I automatically use draw on when you know deciding on something it's become a clearer channel there's no it's less clutter there's less static on the line isn't that yeah that's a good way to explain it yeah yeah there's the static has fallen away yeah well I guess you're not being pulled in so many different directions by the hormones of fertility so So you're free of that, like with that focus, you know, like whether it is a focus or not,

it is physically. So without that. Just physically. You're quite right, yeah. You're coming into a much more streamlined space. And actually, when you spoke that then about just more focus, I immediately thought of the word discernment. Do you, I just feel, I absolutely know my business. and what is my business.

Yeah, I feel that too. I feel like more clarity around what I think about things and what to say. Well, I feel like that for me is part of a confidence. It is a confidence piece. And I think there's a very real muscle in there. It's the knowing muscle. you know your business

and not doubting it you know like not doubting it exactly exactly that the second guessing falls away you just finally you just finally come into the flow of the river of yourself don't you

having kind of cleared the boulders out and suddenly you know the river is in spate almost it's like a weed down the river. Yeah. Well, I just wish that every woman felt like that too and thought that.

Imagine how different it would be. It would be radically different. And it's, you know, we're evolving. This is the beginning of a real change in conversation in these times now. So firstly, menopause at least is out there and being spoken about, even though, you know, it's all rather doom and gloom, the message, you know. But at least it's public and being named, and there's much more intelligent conversations happening at all sorts of levels,

you know, in the workplace politically, you know, in political circles. I mean, that is radical. It's so radical. And that's actually... In our lifetime, we have seen such a change around all of this kind of stuff. haven't we yeah and it's actually in the last probably well you know we've been slogging away for quite a few years haven't we doing all hands of this one decades yeah i mean we're probably into our fourth decade well i think i'm close to that now yeah and it's really in the last decade

10 years but even in the last about six years i would say that something has really we must have reached some kind of tipping point about Well, I think the baby boomers are going through menopause and they've got a lot to say. I think that's what it is. I was going to say that it's those going through menopause now that are suddenly, and then the baby boomers are gone. Oh, shit. Holy shit. We're not putting up with this.

Who did this to me? Yeah, yeah. Something's got to be done because they're very empowered. Yeah. So it's really starting to shift something. So yes, it's coming out now. So at least there's conversations happening. And then, you know, then on the sort of tail of that,

we can ride on the tail of that now with going, and, and, and we can think about this differently. So I feel that we can start to change the tide now. And maybe each generation is going to, this is my vision of it anyway, each generation is going to get it more and more. But also it's actually, it's more than, just menopause. It's actually the whole menstrual cycle story because menopause grows out of your

menstruating years. That's a lovely thing to say. It grows out your menstruating years. It's how, you know, your menstruating years grow you into menopause. And I mean, for me, it wasn't a shock. It was just an evolution, you know. It was so interesting. Yeah. because, of course, I've been connected to my cycle for years and years and years. So really, the change in conversation about the menstrual cycle, which is huge now, is building to this change. Yeah, and that will impact menopause. And that impact... Conscious menstruation.

Yeah. Conscious menstruation impacts menopause. So actually, I think, you know, things are going to get better and better and better. I agree. I am holding to that, absolutely. I think you're right. Yeah. yeah we'll make it so we will because we are we are we are we are because this is one of the things

I talk about I see we have the power of the imagination the power of the imaginative the imaginal I say we may not have the same kind of physical chi but we've got an imaginal chi and we jokingly say be careful who you curse you know because your words your words have So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What we're saying, words, words, words have power. And the menopause business has got that power behind them when they speak, when they speak. And I'd like to come to this piece on self-care in past menopause country. And what that looks like and means to you, because I agree with you,

I mean, I'm ruthlessness around it. Good. I mean, we have to be. And most of us, like I don't want to speak too generally, but I would say from my experience and exposure, I would say that most women arrive to menopause without really a big history of self-care. Yeah. So it's kind of a, a non-being.

kind of a known concept but not a practice necessarily or you know not a not a constant practice and I feel like the care that I needed to give myself through menopause the self-care were the things that well I know that they were the things that facilitated the journey you know it's it's not that it makes it shorter or easier or anything like that but it's like in terms of say if I'm growing myself that the soil and the garden is is is nourished you know like so what i'm growing out of my body basically is um well so there's the various things that i did throughout menopause and continue to do it would so meditation and um chigong as well and and prayer you know like so

i i would pray with various moon phases aligning with the energy of the lunar cycle and also to the earth and with the earth with the changes in the season at the Sabbaths and all of that kind of stuff. So I feel that that is a, that's my spiritual practice. So an earth-based spirituality and lunar cycle awareness. So that and so useful in menopause for those sorts of the practice one can do around the lunar cycle, say like the dark moon prayers of letting go and the new moon prayers of calling in the new things you need and all of that kind of stuff.

So lots of that. And women's circles, you know, like I feel like it's necessary. The self-care that sitting in circle with women offers is really big and wonderful. And my life, like yours, is one woman's circle to the next. So that was a thing. And exercise. So in the training process that I was talking about before, I think that that's a really important and what I did for self-care. I did push it too far occasionally and hurt

myself, but, you know, that was all part of me realizing about pushing too far and eating healthily. And I think that one of the other important care things, and maybe the things I'm saying aren't really what one would see in a self-care situation, but this is what it is for me and also like attending to what's arising like not ignoring what I'm thinking or feeling but actually paying attention to particularly what I found through my menopause years paying attention to my mind chatter instead of just going like being affected by it but not even listening to it if you know what I mean just like being driven by it actually stopping and like what am I saying to myself?

And what I found, Alexandra, which was so profound, was I had a big journey with hot flushes. It felt so much like labor, you know, like I was having them at one stage every two minutes for 90 seconds long. You know, like so they were very full on and so much like a labor, you know, like because I knew labor and I experienced it and been with it so many times, I could see it like contractions and waves and all of that kind of stuff. But what I noticed, which was so shocking and powerful, that I would have a hot flush after I'd had a toxic thought. So I didn't notice that until I had the hot flush. And I thought, oh my God, what was I?

Just thinking about holy moly like I would have been saying something rude or mean to myself or, you know, fuck this. And then this hot flush would come. So living in the Aussie bush, like I could really see the benefit of the fire to burn off the ship, basically. You know, like, and we know that fires in the bush burn hotter, the more litter, forest litter on the floor. So I felt like my hot flushes were just burning away all this inner, well, this kind of toxic self-talk. so that was very powerful and also really amazing yeah and it also gave me the opportunity to pay much more attention to what was what I was thinking which may sound a bit strange but

no it doesn't sound strange and that really resonates with me and that's I find that as an ongoing thing it's I just I go no you're not going to think that about yourself no end of story. No, it's just no. It's shit. Yes, it's like you can't afford to let that kind of clutter sneak in. And I think, you know, I spoke about hardwiring earlier. Menopause really creates the psychological hardwiring to have that kind of discipline now to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to maintain that practice. It is a real practice of witness, actually. Yes, that's it. It's witness. It's a, isn't it? Yes, it's a real presence. Which is a whole other level of consciousness.

It is, yeah. And it's evolution. Yes. Yes. It's so, what you're saying around the self-care is so wise. It's so wise. It's so... Well, that's what happens to us, remember? We get wise. Oh, do we? No! So what's going on? Do you know what's so interesting is? Yeah, absolutely. I will wear that moniker, that hat of the system.

I will wear it. And at the same time, there's a simultaneous thing going on of, geez, you know, I know nothing. So it's like, I know. I'm sort of, you know, I'm exposed to my ignorance simultaneously. It's humility, actually, it's humility. Actually, and I think of that as a gift of menopause, that humility. It's so interesting, because you have this really strong authority, as you said, and this kind of courage and confidence and wisdom, and you kind of know stuff now.

It's really compelling. It's really compelling. And you can be very, I can be forceful and direct and, you know, cut through the, cut through the crap, you know. And then at the same time, there is this vulnerability. And I actually think that's really, really important, this vulnerability and within that, this humility of actually recognising my limitations. And which is, you know, really about embracing the aging process. And I know that that's like, we need to keep that separate to menopause, because Menopause is an event that has a much bigger context and aging is something everybody does,

but they do, you know, happen at the same time for us. And I feel like it feels like it happens quicker with postmenopause as the estrogen declines and then the skin and all the stuff does the stuff it does that we associate with aging. and I feel like the vulnerability that I experience post-menopause is around recognising my mortality and that I am ageing and I am going to die. And my children are all grown up now so I can see that they are the bright flowers,

the fruiting, trees in the garden and I'm you know I'm on the way to turning into a rose hip you know like I'm at the other end of that and I feel like the vulnerability and the humility that I have received by acknowledging and embracing I am aging and I am going to die actually gives me more juice and power to, well, if that's going to happen, I better fucking crack on and get my mission done. Exactly, exactly, you know, that's what I think. There's no room for sort of indulgence or, you know, whatever about ones.

You just... What am I going to do? No, no, you've just got to do it now. Yeah, there's stuff that has to be done. Let's not mess around. I'm totally with you on that. Yeah. I had a really big realization that connected birth to menopause during my experience.

Yes. And I've tested it on heaps of women and it's like it's amazing. And it's basically menopause taught me that I was prepared for menopause so long as I remembered what I'd learned from my births. So basically how I put this all to keep. now is that I encourage women, so I did this myself basically because in my perimenopause journey at the beginning, the beginning of the process when everything's changing and I'm feeling like what's going on and oh, there's a hot flush and I haven't slept and blah and blah. I had like I didn't want to do HRT.

Like I absolutely knew I didn't want to have a drugged birth because I didn't want to have a drugged birth ever. I didn't want my newborn, wise woman self to emerge in a drugged way. Yes. So I wanted to do it without drugs. But I was trying to figure out all the other ways I could avoid it. And I thought, oh, this, that was that was such a familiar feeling. And I remembered that's exactly what I did with my first birth. I was trying to figure out, how I could do whatever I could do to not feel it anymore. So that birth, which was a huge teaching, taught me about surrender. So I recognized that I was going through the same process with menopause that I did with my first

childbirth experience, trying to avoid the pain and the feelings and just like, you know, no, it's not happening. And then when I recognized that that was the same, I thought, oh, okay. I'm prepared for this. I've already learnt this lesson. I need to surrender. And then my second birth after the surrender teaching, which was actually, I ended up having a cesarean because I didn't surrender.

So my second birth, I had a vaginal birth at home, and that birth taught me to trust the process. And then my third birth taught me, another vaginal birth at home, taught me to be present. And there's a big story around that where when I was fully present, I actually felt no pain. So my birth teachings, which I've called birthing formula, was surrender, trust, and be present. So that's what I needed to remember for my menopause journey. I need to surrender, like stop bloody obsessing over, I don't want to feel this or whatever,

just surrender, let go. and then trust the process and be present in the moment. And everything was fine. So long as I remembered that. I might have to remember that every five minutes, but my births held the teachings for me. They prepared me for menopause. You know, one right of passage leads to the next.

That is just superb. That's the formula, isn't it? Surrender. And it's also for women who haven't given birth to babies. Yes. So when we are in our fertile years, we conceive gestate and birth, all manner of things besides humans, books, projects, careers, gardens, new versions of ourselves, whatever. And those can be used in chronological order to get this formula as well. So, you know, I've done this with so many different women.

And everybody has a different teaching, and it is fully applicable to their menopause. absolutely yes in a way that's the those are the words it's almost in that order actually that we use when we talk about the five phases you go through menopause and surrender is yeah right there at the beginning and trust and then being present to yourself and we talk about pacing as well that's just that's just a superb summary and I'm I think we are probably coming up to time, Jane. And this, I just want to say, this has been just the most, well, satisfying,

but useful, just so useful this conversation for people going through menopause. I mean, really, you have been magnificent. Oh, thank you. Well, yeah, your story, I mean, your expertise just full of the most. juicy insights and and you know here you are in your postmenopause life you know absolutely nailing it with a with a shedload of self-care that's me too actually on the

self-care piece for me the other thing is and it's sort of in there is boundaries I'm just ruthless around boundaries my time boundaries you know when I'll start work you know when I'll stop work it I can't cross it if I can stay within those boundaries I'm good. Yeah. Yeah, but... I hear you. I hear you.

I have been known to go... I mean, I talk about the pumpkin now. Sorry, it's pumpkin type. I'm out of here. And that gives everybody else permission and freedom to experience it too. Like, that's what I mean about responsibility. Yes, you're modelling something very powerful. Necessary.

Very, very necessary. Jane, thank you very, very much for a deeply satisfying and entertaining conversation. It's just a pleasure. I feel, yes, I have been on the land with you. Oh, wonderful. Thank you for coming all this way. Yeah, it was my pleasure. I'll stick with you.

Thank you very much for the invitation. And just to say to the listeners, your new book, Wise Power, I read it from cover to cover. and it is absolutely wonderful. It's like in the same way that your book Wild Power about the menstrual cycle just expanded the whole menstrual story, so too is your book Wise Power doing that for menopause. It's just a wonderful map for women and full of all so many good ideas and suggestions.

So congratulations to you and Jani for that. Jane, thank you so much. That's so kind of you. It's so lovely. I think you should hand, up your um oh my book okay my new one here's so this is jane's new book blood um the what is it look at us i've got new babies i've got babies again the spiritual practice of menopause i'm menstruation no the spiritual practice of menstruation yeah the spiritual

practice of medicine i haven't written my menopause book yet yeah it'll come it'll come Oh, two babies. Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, you take care. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. We'll be back again tomorrow with the next bonus menopause episode.

And if you'd like to register for the free event happening later in October or to find out more about the Menopause, the Great Awakener course, you can go to Red Schoolmenopause.com. And if you know someone that would benefit from hearing this conversation with Jane, then please do forward this episode to them. Okay, we'll be with you again tomorrow. Until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.