The Menstruality Podcast - 221. How Cycle Awareness Helps You to Have Difficult Conversations (Sarah Rosenthuler)

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Whether it’s at work, in our relationships, as parents or carers, or in our interaction with our community, life regularly invites us to summon up the courage to have difficult conversations. Today we’re chatting about how cultivating an intimacy with our cyclical nature can support us to show up with skillful expression and heart.Our guest today is Sarah Rozenthuler is a world-renowned speaker, chartered psychologist, leadership coach, and the author of many books, including ‘Now We’re Talking‘. Sarah first discovered menstrual cycle awareness over two decades ago when she read Alexandra’s first book, The Wild Genie about the healing power of menstruation.She shares her journey with irregular menstrual cycles, her experience of running her own business in the world of leadership development as a cyclical being, and how her cycle awareness practice has supported her in some of her recent tough conversations. We explore:How menstrual cycle awareness can help you attune to your inner energetic state, which means you can pick your moment to talk, or stay silent so that conversation flows rather than derails.How the premenstrual phase and menopause helps us to set boundaries effectively in difficult conversations, and the importance of knowing your red lines.Why Sarah feels like she’s driving a Ferrari in the premenstrual phase of her cycle, and what this means for her capacity to have big, meaningful conversation. ---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardySarah Rosenthuler: https://sarahrozenthuler.com/

Welcome to the menstruality podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexander and Sharnie, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, change makers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world.

Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Heads up that I'm sitting here with a very loud, snoring Frodo. So that might be the sound you can hear in the background. And I'm really excited to share this conversation with you because whether it's at work in our relationships as parents or carers or in our interactions with our community, life regularly invites us to summon up the courage to have difficult conversations. Today we're chatting about how cultivating an intimacy with our cycle, with our cyclical nature, can support us to show up for these kinds of

conversations with skillful expression and with heart. And my guest is Sarah Rosentula. She's a world-renowned speaker, a chartered psychologist, leadership coach, and the author of many books, including Now We're Talking. Sarah first discovered menstrual cycle awareness over two decades ago when she read Alexandra's first book, The Wild Genie, about the healing power of menstruation, because she was on a long journey with irregular menstrual cycles. Today she chats about her experience of running her own business in the world of leadership development as a cyclical being and how her cycle awareness practice has supported her

in some of her recent tough conversations. She shares so many practical tips about how to have challenging conversations. I had so many takeaways, but one of my favourite parts was when Sarah described why she feels like she's driving a Ferrari in the pre-manstrual phase of her cycle. Let's get started with how cycle awareness helps you to have difficult conversations with Sarah Rose and Tula. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.

I'm really, really glad to have you here. And I was just saying before, when we were chatting before we press record, that this is a particularly exciting conversation because you've been with this work for a long time, as in literally since Alexandra's first workshop in the UK, right? Yeah. And you've been implementing this in your work. Like I was reading a post from you on LinkedIn. And it was, I think you'd been speaking at an International Women's Day event. And you were talking about our topic of the conversation today, which is going to be having difficult conversations. And then you just wove into the post. And of course, if you practice menstrual cycle awareness, then this is so much easier. And I was like, ding, ding, ding. There is a woman in this world of business and, you know, the corporate world really anchoring the power of menstrual cycle awareness. So I'm so excited. I'm so grateful for what you're doing. And so much. So I'm thrilled to have been invited to come and speak with you. And I'm a huge fan as you can imagine of

Alexandra and Sharney's work and all that you're doing at Red School. I just think fantastic. And yes, I've been following for, I'm going to say decades, I think it is, yeah. I think it was 2004. That sounds about right to me, yes. So just over 20 years now, yeah. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Well, let's, since you've been practicing cycle awareness for 20 years, let's hear where you are today with your cycling life and how it's influencing you today.

Gosh, do you know, I could feel my heart. slightly begin to race, but you ask that question. And I'm like, what? What's that racing heart about? And it's probably a bit of nervousness because don't normally get asked that question or have that invitation. So I'll just find my way through my response here with you. And I'm in a radically different place than I was back in 2004. Maybe I could just touch into that. And how it was, I discovered Alexandra's work and felt so drawn to it. And then I'm really happy to come present time as well.

Yeah, take us all the way. So I came across Alexandra's work when I was at Fendhorn Eco Village and it probably was about 2003, 2004. And outside the Phoenix shop there, in Fendhorn up, of course, in the north of Scotland, I think there was a poster on the community noticeable for Alexandra's first book, Wild Jeannie. And I love that. What's that? That was really evocative as a title. And I actually met somebody at Fendhorn who knew Alexandra and spoke very highly of her work. And anyway, so I looked Alexandra up or somehow made contact. And it was because at that time I was in a really difficult place with my own menstrual cycle.

And the headline of that was it was just very, very, very irregular and erratic. And so I could have gaps of up to 18 months between. periods, not just a few extra weeks, it was months and months. And it really bothered me. And it bothered me in terms of, not just from a health perspective, but from a sort of sense of my own womanhood perspective. And I completely ran out of track with the medical profession. There was nothing they could really do to help me. So I was casting around looking for other help. Yeah. Did they suggest for you to go on the pill?

It was really the only option. They sort of said, go on the pill. And I was like, well, how's that going to solve it? And they said, well, you'll have a bleed every month. It won't be a real bleed. I was like, well, you know, I just, I didn't see it as a solution at all. And it was really affecting my self-esteem and how I felt about myself. So when I saw the wild genius, poster and then read the wild gene. I was like, wow, you know, there's this whole other world to explore here. And I took quite seriously, Alexandra's notion that the menstrual cycle is a barometer for us as women, as those of us who menstruate of our health and well-being. And I was like, well, there's something, oh dear, maybe seriously out of whack then. in my own system. So that's what took me to Alexandra's first workshop. And it was both deeply resourcing and also very difficult for me. And the reason it was difficult was because in that, and I don't know how the workshops are now, I've not been to one for a while, but there

was the invitation to sit in the circle according to the day of your menstrual cycle. And I just stood in the room and thought, I haven't got a clue. I just, I might be on day 420. I just didn't have a clue. And it's a strange thing. I've gone back to that moment many times in my life when, and obviously there was no intention that I would feel excluded. but I did feel excluded and I didn't feel part of the club if you like so that was difficult

but I settled in and I somehow found a place in the circle and Alexandra listened to me and I was able to find my voice with the other women amongst many other voices and I learned in that workshop as well about the amount of pain that women and go through in all sorts of different ways, whether it's physical pain, emotional pain, even, I don't know, spiritual pain or the pain of not finding a clear identity or sense of womanhood. So it was a massive revelation to me that workshop. And I then went on to do some work one-to-one with Alexandra. And that was really helpful. And I feel I'll take a pause there because I've I could just listen. I feel like these origin stories, I feel like I could listen to them all the live long day because there's so much inside them.

Could I ask a couple of questions? I'm always so curious for those of us who feel the connection between the menstrual cycle and our identity as women or our identity, that what is it about some women that feel that connection and some, that don't. And I'm just curious if you have any sense of, even before you saw the wild genie poster, why you knew that your menstrual cycle being missing was such a problem or a challenge for you. On one level, I really don't know. And what I do know is it wasn't about wanting to have children. It wasn't about that. And just back to the medical profession for a moment, when they said there's the option of going on the pill, the rest of that conversation was and it's just not a problem until as when and if you want to get pregnant then come back to us we'll put you on i think it was pro vera they mentioned that some kind of

hormonal intervention and good success rates so it and i remembered thinking then as well that just isn't a solution because it's not about that it's not about the biological capacity here. So I'm going to coming at your question a bit obliquely because it's really hard to it's a bit of a mystery to me why it is that some of us feel that connection to the cycle or the absence of the connection, which is what I was feeling. And then I've got other female friends now at the age I'm at who are, you know, through perimenopause, on the other side of menopause and saying, oh, thank goodness, I don't have to deal with that every month. And I just listen to them. I respect them for where they are. But I feel and I have felt in a

completely different place to that. Thank you for showing that it is such a mystery, which is why I want to ask about it, because I just want to get right in there. And yeah, and I think what I'm hearing from your story is the denial of the importance. of the cyclical nature, which happens so frequently in the medical profession because of a lack of education and in our beautiful NHS, just a lack of funding and, you know, possibility for training and et cetera. But yes, that you knew, you knew there was something there. And then the wild genie pops up. Another part of the answer, going back, I mean, I'm sure that we all in our different ways know how it is to feel excluded. And I think there would have been multiple times in

my teenage years where girls were talking about, you know, PMT, or they're saying, I'm not going to do PE today, or take the swimming lesson today, I've got my period. And I just always felt on the edge of those conversations. I was like, well, what's, what's PMT then? Like, what's, and I just couldn't relate. I couldn't plug in. And I wonder, I think that is part of it. I think those moments when we feel excluded for whatever reason can be searing to the soul and I would have had many of those during my teenage years so that has played a part as well which also could be the origin of your fascination with difficult conversations because there was a difficult conversations to be had there right from the beginning and exclusion can cause so much either for us to move away

from difficult conversations or for us to have to have difficult conversations and advocate for ourselves. Okay. So back to our cycle check-in, but we're doing a longer one, which I love. So how did your relationship to your cycle changes you practice menstrual cycle awareness over the last? Very slowly. Very slow. And I could fill in a bit more of that. But if I come much more up to date to give you a sense of more recent times, So I would say for at least 10 years now, I have had, for me, a really regular cycle, which is to say somewhere between 28 and 35 days. When it hits 28 days, I'm like, yes, I have this kind of like punching the air.

I'm like, whoa. It's like, to this day, it's an absolute thrill as and when it happens. I have got pages. I've shown them to Alexandra when we've met in person going back. Well, it's longer than the 21 years. I think it goes back, gosh, to the late 1990s. So these are pages taken out of the We Moon Diary, if it means anything, where they have the Lula calendar for the year. And so I've tracked it. I've got really accurate records. and it's as the years rolled on from 2004, things gradually began to change. Where I am right now, so I'm 53, and I would say my cycle is really on the move now,

so I'm day 50, do you know, I actually think I'm day 53, age 53, and I've had a couple of gaps in the last year or so of about 50 days. And then the wild genie has returned. I'm watching and I stay, well, this was two words that Alexandra said to me years ago in the one to one work that I have held so close to my heart over the years are stay close. You stay close. That's what she said to me. You stay close to your wild genie, which is pretty much. wild and disappears for months at a time but I really took that to heart and it just feels amazing to me that because of course with the cycle it's so tangible I mean that's the thing about it being that barometer and I one of the things I did quite early on was I went and had some acupuncture

I've seen three different Chinese doctors over the years and the first one looked at me, my tongue, my pulse and she said to me, I can get you a bi-monthly cycle, I reckon. She said constitutionally, I'm not sure you are capable of a monthly cycle. So working with her gradually, yeah, I did. It took two, three years, but it became bi-monthly. but then I worked with another practitioner. I made changes to diet.

I've made changes to exercise. I followed a kind of, I don't know what to call it. Let's call it a natural path all the way. And as I say, yeah, for the last 10 years, you know, regular cycle, which felt amazing. Thank you so much for inviting us into this. I'm curious if it's possible to give it a headline. what your senses of what this long journey with your wild genie,

of what this path of tracking her and finding more regularity has brought to you as a person. Oh gosh. Well, definitely a very clear sense of the mind-body connection, the mind-body-soul connection, because tracking with those changes in the menstrual cycle, I would say I've become just, I was going to say happier. I think it's more accurate to say I've become more relaxed, I've become more content,

I've become less anxious over the years. And it's all tied up together along with the. acupuncture, changes in diet, changes in exercise. It's all so tied up together. So I don't look to pharmaceuticals for quick fixes. I understand some people need that, look to that. I have girlfriends on HRT who swear by it. It's such a personal decision. But I have followed my own compass and just done what's been right for me and also listen to guidance from Alexandra from Sharney and other I'm going to say elders or yeah just either elders or people with a depth of experience that I really acknowledge and bow to and in the context of

all that I've then made my own decisions beautiful I love that then the cycle as a compass beautiful okay well let's start heading towards our difficult conversations topic so I'm aware as you're talking about the wee moon diary and the tracking of your cycle and the big holistic health journey you've been on you've also been navigating a big career in the business world in the corporate world and I'm curious how that's been for those two things to be happening alongside each other they have been tracking alongside each other and And probably there's all sorts of interweaving that I haven't fully explored. But yes, I've run my own business now since 2007.

I've worked in all sorts of partnerships and as an associate consultant as a psychologist for all that time. And, yeah, basically work in leadership development and have focused particularly in on the area of more effective communication and also finding meaning and purpose and just showing up as our real selves. So those are the themes that I'm working with leaders, whether it's coaching individuals or coaching teams.

And I suppose overall my main observation would be, as I have felt myself come on to firm a ground inside myself. So my business has expanded more and more. So there's been a sort of real reflection, and I'm not going to claim causation there, but there's definitely been a mirroring between steady ground inside and business taking off. I've seen that to be true.

in my life and I work as a business coach too and like seeing I've seen that so many times it's like when we when we line up get coherent find come home to ourselves in a way then all sorts of possibilities open up but I liked what you said we can't claim causation we don't know it's a mystery but yes I love your word there the coherence and I also love the word you used about anchoring you know being anchored in oneself and how and the cycle can really play a part I think in that anchoring and studio. Yeah. I was having a chat with my four-year-old this morning, actually,

because he said, Mommy, are you still on your period? He's very interested. And I said, no, actually, love, he was like, do you want to tampon? He said, I said, no, it's all right, love. I'm not on it anymore. I'm in inner spring now, so my energy is rising.

It's like, interesting. It's been an anchor for him as well in some way. while he's living here. Anyway, I digress. So what I would love to speak to you about today is the menstrual cycle and how it can guide us to have difficult conversations. And you had a conversation recently with Alexandra and Sharnie for your beautiful podcast. Now We're Talking, which is the title of your book too.

And it was about how cycle awareness can help us to be resilient, responsive, resourced leaders. I think that's what we're talking about. It's a leadership move being able to have skillful, difficult conversations. Yeah, whether we're initiating them and maybe we've done our preparation or whether we just get thrown a curveball in a meeting. And gosh, I spoke with the CEO recently because I was asking, you know, what for you is a difficult conversation? And this CEO was saying, well, definitely letting somebody go, firing someone.

And she said, gosh, this conversation I thought would take fire. minutes took an hour and a half because of all the emotional fallout. So I'm a big advocate in my work of doing prep before these conversations so that we actually cross the threshold rather than avoid them. And I also acknowledge that yeah, prep isn't always possible because life just can bring in unexpected things in conversations as well. So just to acknowledge that. Yeah, beautifully said, I'm just thinking of a moment that happened for me yesterday with, I have a big community around of dog walkers because I have a dog.

I didn't realize that you become like part of a pack of humans who own dogs. And one of the women that I know, just she was walking out of her house and she said, oh, I have to tell you something. My partner just died. And it was just a, it was one of those moments of life where everything just suddenly, everything just stops and we sat there together for 15 minutes and it was a difficult conversation and it was I was out of nowhere but it's one of those times about right I need to show up here this is a woman who is hurting and yeah so these things happened

it and they life throws the most tragic and difficult curveballs there are a lot of difficult conversations happening in the world at the moment because of the various hugely challenging political and cultural things that are unfolding. This is a very needed topic. There are real resources that we can draw on and I just think that's so good that you could sit down with your neighbour and talk for that 15 minutes and just because of course that's also the other side of conversations.

They might be difficult at times. We might have to call up our courage to have them and they can bring such comfort and they can just really help us, whether it's feel companion, feel that we belong here on planet Earth, bring a sense of perspective. And I sometimes think, and I notice it in myself, you know, and get so caught up with the fears about leaning in or the risks of speaking out and what if I upset that person or damage that relationship and so on.

but there are also real risks in staying silent, which would be bigger than the risks of speaking out if we really look at them. And then there can be all these benefits as well when we do actually slow down and take the time to talk. You know, there can be bountiful benefits to that. So I've just been fascinated by conversation for many years because we're all swimming in but often don't pay it much attention and it's a very humble but liberating tool really or ally to use an Alexandra word. It's a bit like the menstrual cycle.

We're swimming in it, it's all around us. And I think especially in the big moments of life, like the losing a job or losing a loved one or the big transitions, a really good conversation can make all the difference in terms of how we understand the transition we're in or how we navigate the tough times. A really good, high-quality conversation can be like a life-changing thing. Just a reminder, this wasn't life-changing, but it was, I think it just for me, really was a reminder about the difference a conversation can make. So this is in the context of business

where a colleague who I was going to be delivering a program with sent me an email to say numbers on the program had dropped, so therefore it was necessary to drop my fee. And I didn't respond. I just thought, well, I'm just going to sit with that and feel the impact of that. Anyway, about 24 hours later, this same colleague phoned me up and apologized for having sort of broken the news in an email, not on the phone straight away. And we went on to have a really good conversation. And I really respected him for having reflected. It was clear he'd reflected and regretted how he'd done it. And, you know, anyway, by the end of what was quite a short conversation, I mean, I was out, yeah, on the high street at the time. I just thought, gosh,

10 minutes just really settled things between us. It absolutely cleared the way for us going on to run the program together three days. It was really nourishing. And that 10 minutes was so well spent. It's not like a huge movement, but it was just a good recent reminder about leaning in and we can just keep our relationships renewed in good form when we talk. If you're feeling that you'd like to commit more deeply to your cycle awareness practice, perhaps to support you to step into your leadership in the ways we've been exploring today with Sarah or in other ways, then Red School's menstruality leadership program might be a good next step for you. If you'd like to get a taste for Alexander and Sharnie's approach,

as well as hear some of the inspiring stories of the graduates of the program, Alexander and Sharnie would love to invite you to join them for their free event next week. What could your menstruality leadership and career look like? You can register at menstrualityleadership.com. It's happening on Wednesday, the 26th of November. And here's a story from LaZola, one of the Red School Mentorality Leadership Program graduates. Hello everyone, my name is La Zola Maduga. I am South African and I live in South Africa and currently right now I am traveling through Namibia all the way to

Botswana a trip that I've been wanting to do for a very long time. I'm also a Red School MLP graduate. I completed my MLP minstrandency leadership program back in In 2022, I wanted to speak about my experience in the MLP, specifically where I was and the space I was occupying before the MLP and where I've landed or find myself right now in my personal life as well as in my work life within the menstruality field. Before I joined the MLP, I was definitely playing small. I was down playing the interest and the amount of information that I had gathered over the years of tracking my cycle.

I had also managed to tell myself that I couldn't share this work. And what I discovered then through the MLP was that, one, I wasn't alone, that there were so many people around the world who had been tracking their menstrual cycle and have had these discoveries and experiences And the one thing that I hold dearly is pacing as a leader, as a feminine leader. The skill of pacing has been essential and pacing for me creates sustainability within myself so that I'm not overworking, overcompensating, that I am still well within my own rhythm, moving in my own way and still collaborating with the elements, with the environment,

with the people that are around me. And lastly, my experience with learning from Alexandra as well as Shawnee at Red School has been an experience of its own. The tenderness in creating a space or a learning environment that feels safe, that, you know, really listens, deeply listens, but not only in the words, listening, but in the embodied listening.

And so what's great about the MLP course is that it does incorporate and include embodied exercises. That is one thing for me that made my MLP experience truly as deep as it was and valuable. One of the things that you pulled out, I can't remember where I got this from, from, whether it was in your conversation with Alexander and Sharnie or something I've read from you online. But you were talking about how the menstrual cycle, where you said, menstrual cycle awareness helps you to be attuned to your inner energetic state, whether you're feeling fragile, punchy or mellow, which means you can pick your moment to talk or stay silent so that the conversation flows rather than derails. Yes. I can relate to all of those words.

Yeah. To the extent that we're again, we're, again, we're able to pick our moment. And I think one of the life experiences that has really shaped those observations there for me has been the ending of relationships, whether in my personal life or in my professional life, I've done the resignation conversation several times, let's call it that, or at least sort of said, I'm taking my leave now. And so sometimes we can really pick our moment and I think the cycle can be very informative for that and I know as you said I spoke with Alexandra Sharney and I explored some of this territory together and I just think I think the pre-menstruem for example because we're kind of really it's that time of reckoning isn't it

when, as Alexander would say, we're not wrapped in the cotton wool anymore. You know, we're kind of rawly in touch with reality. So in a way, that can be a great time for leaning in. I get much less hooked on patterns of people pleasing when I'm in the premenstrual. I remember Alexandra, I think it was, said, you know, but just make sure, you know, you're resourced enough in that place if you're going to lean in. And I thought that was wise.

So there's probably not an overall template that would apply to all situations and scenarios. Those different energetic states of the different inner seasons can bring clarity, can bring, courage can bring some open-heartedness. I think Sharnie might have spoken about in the inner summer. We might be able to be more appreciative, more generous-hearted towards other people. We might be able to have a conversation where we can really explore what they need.

Our own needs are more in abeyance in the high noon of the cycle. So I have found that really helpful over the years for conversation, but also for other things running the business. I went to do more back office work. Maybe I do that in my inner autumn. One of Alexander's phrase freshly minted, you know, when we kind of were going spring, summer. I say if I'm doing a keynote talk and there's a correspondence between giving the talk and, you know, being feeling freshly minted again it's a kind of like punch the air moat like harvest that make the most of it because as we all know like it's going to top you know it is going to slide into autumn at some stage so make the most of the high summer it's been hugely instructed yes it's so helpful

and especially because the more we practice it, the more we get to know ourselves. Like I tend to be quite anxious when I'm freshly minted, which is only in these last like 10 years, I used to have really challenging inner autumn and it's flipped and now my inner spring is my challenging time. So I just really track, I really track coming out of my bleed and the first few days of spring, that's when I know not to have difficult conversations if I am able to pick my moment. I'm like, that's not my time. Could be a great time for others, especially.

You feel like Lauren, who works in the Red School team, she loves in a spring. It's like, yes, I'm arrived, I'm back. That might be a good time for her. And also, the period just before the bleed, when I can feel it might be coming, although my cycle is getting tricksy on me lately or Tithy. I'm like, is she coming or not?

But yeah, that's often a good time for me to, I'm too permeable, I'm too volatile, I had a very parenting young children, like the amount of difficult conversations I have to have with my child or with aid about our parenting. And it happened on day one, does this last bleed? I'm on day seven now. And it was too much. It was way too much for my system.

It was like too much electric current through cables that couldn't hold it. And I just broke and burst into tears, you know, I just wasn't. able to go into that difficult space. So yeah, through practicing cyclones, we just get to know the times if we are able to. Thank you for that reminder about how personal it is, how different it can be. And like you say, it can also really change for us from one year to the next or one decade to the next decade as well. Yeah, what an adventure it is. You said something so funny it made me laugh out loud you were talking about um how you change in the premenstrom this was with alexander and sharnie and he said if i was driving a car and go into the premenstrom it would be like

a red Ferrari you know something with you said like gutsy grunt in the system or something like that said as opposed to the rest of the month or it might be more like a Honda dance I mean I know it's a metaphor but it's pretty close to how I experience it because I have caused thought myself a good number of times in the pre-menström, and I feel I am sat in a different driving seat. I've got a different gearbox, like the whole machine is more gutsy. And there's a certain thrill to that. I mean, I am actually somebody really enjoys driving, let's say in real life. but there's like there's a power available as well that that could result in a crash it's like it's so it's like both thrilling and it brings a kind of like whoa like cautious you know just

make sure the seatbelts on but it's just a very different state and there's a part of that where it's not reckless but I just don't get it. care, like I do care in the rest of the cycle, what people think of me, kind of what the fallout is. I'd like to say I still look out for other people. But there's a certain, I'm casting around for a word other than reckless. It feels like we might be entering slight menopause territory here in the way you're speaking. Like I just, a lot of the, menopausal women and folks that I speak to bring this kind of energy that you're bringing now

of yeah I just don't care or like I do care and I take care of people but I also just don't care and the power that comes with that you have reckless what is it feisty fiery like wild courageousness

but it's not premeditated that's why I'm sort of like not quite courage isn't quite it because I sometimes like like calling up one's courage just in the moment and the way that Charney and Alexandra in wise power talk about the superpowers that come online in menopause that stronger ability to say no that capacity to see really resonates and yeah and as does the teaching around the pre-menstruent.

being a kind of prelude energetically to what then comes online more fully in perimenopause and menopause that, again, we can just make sense of that in my own body, in my own system. Audacious is a great word. The audacity of menopause. Yeah, I think in your conversation with Alexander and Charlie, you were speaking about some of the menopause superpowers. for difficult conversations and one of them being the capacity to set boundaries more appropriately and effectively could you walk us into that why being able to set boundaries is so important for difficult conversations you might really need to know where your red lines are so you might

for example if it's a conversation about money or what your fees are going to be or you know what you're going to get paid. It can be very necessary, I think, not just strengthening, but necessary for your ongoing self-worth sense of self to just have a set. You know, below that red line, you know, I don't go. So there are some boundaries that are more internal that can be set and good to do some thinking offline. I mean, back to prepare. for these conversations. I came across a recent quote. I tried to find the source of it,

but couldn't. It said prepare so you don't have to repair. I think resonates with me. I think boundaries. It's a bit like interpreting anger, you know, as it's an indication that boundaries have been via. It's anger can be a difficult emotion to feel, but it's data and it can be very useful to then check in with a boundary where the boundaries have been set, if boundaries have been violated.

My own sense of boundary setting coming into perimenopause and then beyond that into menopause is it's just something happens in the system. So I'm just thinking of conversations I'm having with other women my age who are saying it's just so necessary to slow down, not cram things in so much, allow more time and space for things because the system gets stressed more quickly and the degree of heat that can be experienced can be really, really unpleasant. And so in that way, I'm learning, and this is very fresh learning for me, that boundaries are boundary set. It's a great ally to just keep stress down, keep resting more, because all of that is resourcing. And I actually think it's very helpful that the physical system is changing because you don't get this. There isn't the same degree of latitude. as I was earlier in life. I could push myself much more,

whether that was healthy for me or not. Let's put that to one side. But I could push in my 20s and 30s and to some extent still in my 40s. And these days, if I push myself, like big red flags come up and like start waving at me in a way that didn't used to happen. And I'm learning to interpret those big red flags as a friendly thing.

Brings me back to self-care, to pacing things more kindly. And I'm figuring that that probably, hopefully, has a good effect on the people around. And not just... You feel ever so regulating to communicate with for me. There's something really rhythmical about the way your tone and your delivery and like this balance and this grounding. So whatever you're doing, that's working, Sarah. Thank you. You're welcome.

I really like this idea of the red lines that you won't cross. Because I imagine, I know for me and I imagine for others and particularly women that when we enter into difficult conversations, one of the things that I'm afraid of is just giving my power away. and it's one of things that makes me not want to have the difficult conversation because I don't want to watch myself yet again not take a stand for myself or find it so difficult and so activating or triggering to say this is my request and stop talking.

Let's see, it's just so difficult. So to have those red lines that I know, right, I won't cross them to prepare those in advance feels like such great advice. You know, just having a phrase or two, a go-to phrase or two, that when the temperature goes up or the stakes go up or the pressure is on, you don't have to think about what you're going to say. You're just going to say, I'm going to need more time to think about this. Or you're going to say, help me to understand, da-da,

and then you put it back to them. Or would you be willing if I made a suggestion to listen to, you know, just knowing where you would go, what your psychological linch is, where you're going to go and perch in that moment and is so valuable, because I can really relate, when you were saying about, you know, the dread of experiencing the possibility you might give your power away, I can really, and then, you know, and then we've got a double whammy of a difficult conversation and then leaving the difficult conversation feeling rubbish. about ourselves so having places to go to that we've figured out a little bit in advance can be really helpful I love that term psychological ledge that's nice one of my psychological ledges oh yes this sentence this sentence sometimes I even write things down in front of me just so I can see remember that helps with my conversations with aid especially.

Search as well that has shown. This is Elizabeth Stucco's work. She's a conversational analyst and a proper prof. And she has found she's looked at negotiations with hostages, with neighbour disputes between. There are little words and phrases that keep the doors open in very high states' conversation. And they're things like, would you be willing, like that expression there.

So these little hinges on which big doors swing are well worth finding for ourselves and paying attention to it. I didn't coin the phrase, psychological ledge. I wish I could tell where it's from, but just to reach it's from there rather than in here. It's a good one.

I imagine you unpack these in your book, but you often share tools that can help with difficult conversations. We've been naming some of them already. But one of them that you name, I'd love to bring three in, actually, is this idea of taking your seat and feeling grounded in a difficult conversation. Could you unpack that? Yeah, I mean, in my book now we're talking, there's a whole chapter on Find Your Ground. It's about, yeah, finding that steady place inside, acknowledging what your reactive tendency might be, whether that's to do the people pleasing,

whether it's to do the cold shoulder distancing, whether it's to do the fist thumping on the table. You know, that's all reactivity. So it can be really helpful to just have an honest conversation with yourself about what your own reactivity looks like when it gets triggered. and get a clear fix on that because that will then help us to rein it in, to manage it. So there's lots more I could say on that. But let me, but the take your seat very closely related, but that I have to credit Meg Wheatley, Margaret Wheatley,

with really doubling down on that phrase. I recently did a leadership course with her. And at the beginning of every session, she would take us through a short process. to just feel that you were fully in your seat. And I think change is in posture really help. So this is now my interpretation of the take your seat. But you might just, and you can do all of this, sat in a meeting room, sat on a team's call or a Zoom call.

You uncross your legs, feet flat on the ground. You sit up, a little straight up in your chair, take a deeper breath to just be. fully here in this moment so that you've got as much capacity as you possibly can have for dealing with the curveballs, for getting the words out that you really need to say that are really at the heart of the chapter. And how amazing is menstrual cycle awareness for that practice? I feel like every time I check in, what cycle day am I on?

how am I feeling it's a claiming of my place in the world and therefore are sitting down in the seat of who I am in this moment. It's a claiming. So I'm not just bending myself to whatever I think might be expected of me. Who I'm actually in this moment. How am I feeling? How am I showing up is, I think I feel like it's a way I take my seat in my life. And like you say, actually bringing in that checking around what day is it for me and how am I. It is a wonderful dimension of the taking which I think is originally a Buddhist practice but we can adapt

these practices and really you know make them make them more yeah make them real for the real life moments when we need them and so true what you say about posture and even like I notice I can get yeah my legs crossed my arms crossed

everything get my face looking cross And then if I just, yeah, uncrossed my legs, open up that my chest be a bit broader, maybe a bit more access to my capacity to be compassionate and loving in that moment. And I'm finding just to touch in on the business world and the corporate world for a moment. It's, I remember years ago, one of my university professors saying to me, you know, it's demanding theatre. You know, just go and it is a theatre in a way. I mean, we get to play ourselves, as it were.

but it's be i sometimes feel like the corporate world is um like a gym it's like a workout space where you know at its best we can flex our muscles we can develop muscles and that can be very good actually for our health and well-being and it can be demanding so i'm often looking for these tools and strategies, allies, that can be done in the sometimes quite intense atmosphere of the boardroom or the meeting room. Yeah, because it can be very pressured sometimes. As someone who just works in my own little office in my house, it honestly, it terrifies me the thought, to go into a corporate space. I think it's amazing. Well, I mean, that's one picture of it. But, I mean, I literally, on Monday, two days ago, got back from working in Los Angeles.

I was working with a group of international postdocs doing research. And it was so vibrant, so stimulating. You know, they're mostly in their late 20s. The quality of the questions they are. So I just want to acknowledge all of that. I'm not a masochist, you know. I just, there are many, many upsides to the corporate worlds as well. I do just need to acknowledge that too. Yeah, yeah, I bet. I'm totally in a little bubble here by myself,

by that introverted self. One of the other pieces that you, or like one of the small shifts that you recommend for difficult conversations, is taking time to reflect back what you've heard, which as a coach is something that I've, you know, studied and learned and practice and seen just how immense it is as a, it's an art form really. Well, conversation is an art form, but this is a, like having a really great paintbrush to do that, to do the art with. Just simply listening and reflecting back and for someone to feel heard and met in that way is profound. And it sounds simple, doesn't it? To say it. And yet, it's not easy. It's like a meditation, you know, a moment by moment meditation. And I think it's also a real

discipline, a discipline that comes from a generosity of heart to actually, yeah, take the time to reflect back what the other person said, do your best to summarise it or check your understanding to validate it even if you don't agree with it before you then launch in with your own opinion and I learned those skills in not in business actually I've taken them into business I learned those skills from the work of Harville Hendricks who Oprah Winfrey called the marriage whisperer because he'd helped so many couples so in America therapist, marriage counselor, written many books, getting the love you want is one of them. I'll keep this very short, but when I was a number of years ago having a really difficult

time in my relationship, my partner at the time and I went and learned those listening skills and those dialogue skills. And the relationship ultimately didn't work out. But I could leave in peace because I had a sense that I've not left any stone left unturned because we had learned these listening skills. And it was the one thing that taking time to reflect back before you said your own peace, it was the one thing that actually settled the energy between us. It was the only thing that really helped. And so I just really include Charbal Hendrix's work

because I have found it hugely beneficial. I teach it sometimes in the corporate world and later acknowledge where it comes from. But I don't come out of the gate with that. Yeah, yeah. It's the same in my marriage. The amount of times we've sat on that sofa in that living room and through gritted teeth,

I've said, so what I think I'm hearing you say is and everything in me just wants to unleash, you know, what I want to say, but just know if I can just get it out and here will feel met, then there's an open, it creates openness, yeah, yeah. Not easy, not easy. Final piece is when you and I were going back and forth about this conversation on email, you were saying that,

how having challenging conversations can support people and especially women to stay on track with themselves and to do the work that they're here to do. And you said to be in their right place in the world. Could you expand a bit on that? Because it's so much what bed school is about to. Oh gosh. Well, it's back to that notion of crossing a threshold. And I think again, it's been particularly around the ending of relationships that have given me, it's given me such a sharp sense sometimes or a sharpened awareness around. If I don't have this conversation and say what I need to say, then the door is going to stay shut on the next life chapter.

And in that way, a conversation isn't just a conversation. it's like a portal. You either find your way through it or you don't. And I just have a very sort of keen sense of that. And the other thing that just popped into my mind when you ask the question, and this is from the work of Neil Donald Walsh, and I sort of studied with him a number of years ago

and took a deep dive into all his work. Anyway, on his retreats, he would say, there are two questions to ask yourself in life. Where am I going and who's going with me? And the important thing is you don't reverse the order of the two questions. You have to get clear on where you're going first and then you come to the question of who's going with me. Anyway, I have held those questions close to my heart at several jumps. in life. And I have seen people, including some women, not end up in fulfilling places when they have lacked the clarity on where they're going or they have prioritised that I'm staying with these people

but then they've kind of betrayed themselves. And that's a painful place to end up. yeah yeah that word betray feels important it's the first phase that alexander and shiny describe of menopause and i think from my conversations is a place a lot of women and folks in menopause find themselves in that place of betrayal having betrayed themselves because they switch those questions of those two questions around so i think that whole thing about how we stay true to ourselves you know we work out where we're going and getting clear on that and again the cycle can be very resourcing, building in maybe some periods of quiet and reflection

as well as energy that takes us more out of ourselves can just bring clarity on that question, and where am I going, and who are my travelling companions and who might I need to leave behind? And we are not very good in our society, mainstream society, at helping people with endings. I have a dear friend and colleague, Sarah Jane Minato, and she often talks about building ending muscles

and how in the times that we're in, we need to get better at that. And again, we can resource ourselves, I think, to deal better with ending. So again, often aren't easy. No, as the premenstrual, suppose the cycle shows us, every month thank you so much i really could talk to you all day it's been so delightful if those listening want to connect with you and your work what's the best way to do that so it's my name sarah rosentula dot com in terms of social media i'm active on lincoln that's the platform that i use so you'll find me there and again listeners are very very welcome to reach

out and i've really enjoyed talking with you sophie thank you so much much it's just been it's felt like a real dance and between us so thank you oh you're so welcome i feel like there's been lots of golden nuggets like very practical pieces that i know i'm going to take away with me for my difficult conversations and that i think our listeners will too so thank you and hope to have a beautiful rest of your day bye thanks for being with us today If you know someone that could benefit from this conversation, please forward it to them. And it's really helpful if you can come and leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people to reach the podcast, and it's the best way to help us if you'd like to.

Okay, if you'd like to join Alexander and Sharnie for their free event next week, what could your menstruality leadership and career look like? You can register at menstrualityleadership.com. It's happening on Wednesday. and I'll be with you again in a couple of weeks. So until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.