The Menstruality Podcast - 240. Sex, Intimacy, and Listening to our Cyclical Bodies (Ita O'Brien)

Episode Date: July 9, 2026

Today we’re having a fascinating conversation with the woman who pioneered the role of intimacy co-ordinators in TV, film, opera and theatre. Ita O’Brien has worked on numerous high-profile productions including Sex Education on Netflix, and I May Destroy You on the BBC, and is the founder of the Intimacy on Set guidelines which have been widely adopted across the industry, advocating for safe, fair and dignified work.Ita recently took all of her learnings and experience, and she’s shared them in her brilliant book, Intimacy: A field guide to finding connection and feeling your deep desires. Today we explore the vital role that an intimacy co-ordinator plays, and why safe, honouring and real-life depictions of sex on screen are so vital. We also draw on Ita’s wisdom around listening to our bodies in order to create deeper intimacy with ourselves and others, the need for all of us to understand the cyclical anatomy of female arousal and why we need more women writers creating truthful intimate scenes for women and people who menstruate.We explore:Ita’s experience of being an intimacy co-ordinator on trailblazing scenes involving period sex in Michaela Coel’s I May Destroy You.The importance of true consent, and how to access the power of no in intimacy, so that we can find our true yes. The archetype of the enchantress and how she can support our intimacy explorations as we approach, move through and enter our third act post menopause.---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardyIta O’Brien: @itaobrien_intimacycoordinator: https://www.instagram.com/itaobrien_intimacycoordinator/

Welcome to the menstruality podcast where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexander and Sharnie, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, change makers and creatives to explore how you can, unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, thanks for tuning in today. I hope you're doing well. Today I'm sharing a fascinating conversation with the woman who trailblazed the role of the intimacy coordinator in TV, film, opera and theatre. So her name is ITER O'Brien.

She's worked on several high-profile productions including sex education on Netflix, which I loved, and I May Destroy You on the BBC. And she's the founder of the Intimacy on Set Guidelines, which have been widely adopted across the industry, advocating for safe and fair and dignified work. And she recently took all of her learnings and experience and incorporated them into her beautiful book, Intimacy, a field guide to finding connection and feeling your deep desires.

And today we explore the vital role that intimacy coordinators play and why safe, honouring and real life depictions of sex on screen are so vital for all of us. We draw on Eater's wisdom around listening to our bodies, which of course is the core practice for menstrual cycle awareness, which we speak so much about on this podcast. But this practice of listening to our bodies in order to create deeper intimacy with ourselves and others, the need for all of us to understand the cyclical anatomy of female arousal and why we need more. women writers creating truthful intimate scenes for women and folks who menstruate. One of my favourite bits was when Eta shared her experience of being an intimacy coordinator on the pioneering

scenes involving period sex for the show I May Destroy You and also everything she shared about the archetype of the enchantress and how this archetype can support our intimacy explorations as we approach and move through menopause and enter our third act post menopause. So let's get started with the brilliant Eater O'Brien. ITER, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Sophie, it is an absolute joy to be here. As you know, I connected with the Red School and with Alex and Charney.

Sort of many years ago, as this work was starting and attended one of their workshops, and then throughout this work and in the book, obviously I refer to them and the wonderful work that they're doing in that sense of listening to ourselves, taking our power into ourselves and having a, you know, a more healthy, intimate life. So it's an absolute joy that when you ask me to come and speak with you. Yes. You know, I always start the podcast by asking for a cycle check-in. And that looks different for each of us depending where we're at in our lives. And so I was just curious to hear what cycles you feel connected to in your life and how they're influencing your experience at the moment. So, yeah.

Yeah, thank you for asking that. I was contemplating this because obviously I'm a post-menopausal woman, so I'm no longer bleeding. I had my last menstruation in February 2018, so quite a while ago. But before then, even, I also was doing a lot of work, and I love the work where you connect with the moon and you celebrate either the new moon or the full moon. And so that shift to really being aware of the moon cycle is very much something that it was part of my life while I was menstruating. And now since menstruating, it's really lovely to connect with that. So the full moon a couple of weeks ago is absolutely amazing.

And today's day 25 when we've got the new moon on the 14th of June. I'm actually due to go to Italy to do a two-week workshop on Sunday on the new moon, which feels really gorgeous, that sense of journeying into the darkness, into rest and release right now, as I sort of wash on my clothing and get ready to pack, and then ready to start the beginning of the new cycle as I reach Italy. So, you know, I felt that with the hormones that like flatlining, as it were, without having that rise and fall of the estrogen, and it's really lovely to connect with the moon.

So you still have that sense of a natural and energetic cycle that you're journeying through in life. Yes. Oh, on Italy. I'm so happy for you that you get to go and be in Italy for two weeks. That sounds wonderful. I'm so looking forward to it, yes. And what about you, Sophie? Where are you in your cycle? Oh, thanks for asking. I'm in an interesting experience because I'm on day 16. So I've just ovulated a couple of days ago. But I have been feeling very what I would call like premenstrual for a couple of weeks. And I don't think it's necessarily a perimenopause thing because I know a lot of our community. They just feel like they just feel like they're premenstrual the whole time when they're in peri menstrual. menopause. It's more that I launched a big creative project and then I entered, I entered a

kind of autumn feeling after it was kind of birthed into the world. And that's, that's been my predominant experience cyclically. So it's been fascinating to watch that. My, my creative process sort of takes over my menstrual cycle feeling sometimes. No, absolutely. And actually, while I was preparing for this podcast and thinking about our cyclical journey and, you know, I was thinking about when I was menstruating but on the pill, I was put on one pill that was just a single hormone throughout the whole time and then you just stopped it for a week. And I really didn't like this. And there was another version of the pill that actually sent you through different hormones through, you know, the cycle. And it was so important for me to be on that when I was, you know, taking that that form

of contraception. So it kept me going through the cycle. And I really, you know, I enjoyed that. And I felt I was very lucky in my menstruating years to not have, you know, for them to be quite easy. And in particular, I was fundamentally dancing throughout my whole life. And, you know, if there was any aches and pains around woundness, I would go to class and move that energy through. So I felt very lucky. But then also, if you look back and I think for all of us that the larger cycles in our life and honoring and welcoming those. and I truly, truly believe that going outwards, but then they're coming inwards, you know, so even just the basic, it starts with our breath, we have that in-breath, expansion,

out-breath, release coming into centre. And then I'm so aware, sort of reading and understanding about how our planet is made, and actually, you know, our planet and the minerals in it come from, you know, a younger planet condensing and expanding, and then the denser metals are made from that explosion. and so therefore those wonderful rare metals that are in our planet, you know, silver, nickel, copper are finite, you know, and this sense when I see in the news about this constant measurement that only by growth, nothing can grow constantly.

And it's natural, sort of it's so natural and normal to have an expansion to be out on the world, and then to have the release and coming back to centre and coming to stillness. And there's many times that you've spoken about on the podcast, that part of our society and that part of how we live our lives isn't considered the positive bit. But it's essential.

And for me as well, it's been so joyous to have, you know, from developing the intimacy onset guidelines to going out into the world and then coming to a place of, you know, sort of being so, so busy and then coming to a place of, you know, being more quiet and coming to inwards. And it's so important and it's really wonderful, you know, so many times in your podcast, again, you know, listening to our cycles, both the cyclical monthly cycles, but also the larger cycles in our life and to really welcome that time of softening and releasing and letting go and stillness, ready for the next cycle to begin again. Thank you for bringing it into the ecological sphere as well. because I love it any time we can do that to connect with the practice of being with our own cycles

and acknowledging the ebb as well as the flow and the rest as well as the action. And then how the implications for that, for how we could maybe not turn things around on our planet at this point, but how we could commune with nature, how we could be with nature, so that we can sustain life on this planet, at least human life. The earth is going to be fine. But, yes, let's see if we can sustain human life. Yeah. Thank you for reading that perspective.

Yeah. So you mentioned the intimacy on set guidelines. You have such an interesting job. So you are an intimacy coordinator on shows, on sets. And I would love to hear your, I know it's a big story because I read your book and it's such an interesting story. And I recommend everyone to go out and read the book and hear the story because it's very cool. But if you could share some of the milestones on your way to becoming an intimacy coordinator and what inspired that move for you. Yes, but it was, I feel truly guided, about being guided by nature and the universe and the flow. I started dancing at the age of three. My mum's from Cookstown County, Sturon, Northern Ireland. My dad is from Clombella and Tipperary. She wanted me to go to Irish dancing and there wasn't any, so she sent me to a ballet class and then the school that I happened to go to had the most amazing ballet teacher who had taught Burrell Gray in the 1930s,

and this was late 1960s. So I trained to. trained in ballet and I subsequently trained through and became a professional ballet dancer or professional musical theatre dancer for 10 years, trained as an actor at Bristol, Oveit, worked as an actor for eight years and then I did the MAM movement studies at Central School of Speech of Drama and started working as a movement teacher and a movement director in 2007. But then I also started writing my own work and I put on my own play in 2009 and then took that piece of work further and it's called to a piece called Does My Sex Offend You?

I was looking at a dynamic of the perpetrator and the victim and in that place I was considering how do I, as the holder of space and the facilitator, create a really safe space when asked my actors to come in and explore what could be challenging content and possibly challenging intimate content. I did two rounds of research and development, which is where you ask your performers to come

and you give them the different provocations and you explore physically and emotionally different aspects of the storytelling. So I did one round in August of 2014 and the second round in August of 2015. But at that point, I was teaching in many of the different drama schools in London and the head of movement at Mountview Drama School,

a wonderful lady called Meredith Duffton, had the awareness that suddenly she was given plays for her second and third years that all had intimate content. She had to note it and she was aware that there was no professional structure with which to actually create this physical storytelling in a really creative and professional way

and she was saying to me what you're creating, the structure that you're creating is giving that physical container to help create this kind of content in a really wonderful creative, professional but also looking at best practice and how to help your actors to be centered, grounded and present with themselves, with each other and in the space.

And so she said, please come and teach what you're developing. And so I started teaching that in April of 2013, 2015. And three years later, the students were saying to me, this is brilliant in drama school. What's happening in the industry? So I started sharing it with equity, shared it with the group of agents in July of 2017. And then, of course, Weinstein allegations happened in a subsequent Me Too and Times Up movement. So while I was sharing it with the industry, suddenly that shift of the industry to say, we knew about this, we cannot turn a blind eye any longer. and the codes of conduct being drawn up.

And within that narrative and intention in the industry, I was there to say, and here, within this intention, is how we can work openly, creatively, professionally, with respect for everybody, with the intimate content. And that was the beginning of it. And then sex education was the first production that called me in. So the 25th of April 2018 was my first day

where I said the best thing we can do is a whole day workshop, this groundbreaking, joyous, amazing whole day, sharing the intimacy guidelines with that cast bounding out of that day, already understanding how to create these beautiful intimate scenes, you know, with consent, you know, really serving character and storytelling. And then the next one was Gentleman Jack in early of May 2018. And so the story continues. It's just so fun for me as someone who watched and loved sex education to now be sitting with you and understanding why the sex scenes felt so good, like good to be around comfortable.

Like, even when it was awkward, difficult moments, there was something about what was going on in those scenes that made me feel safe in myself watching them somehow. So it's like, ah, what a full circle joyous moment. Yeah, thank you. That's so lovely to hear you say that. And that is exactly what we bring. It's sort of when you bring in and separate out who someone is personally with them what they're offering creatively for character and for storytelling. And in the past, without the role and the structure of the intimacy on set guidelines, there was this confusion regarding the intimate content that it's like, oh, you know,

you two need to have chemistry and you two can get on with it by yourselves. And in that place, there was such confusion of who someone was personally and then what they were offering professionally. And also without the structure to invite someone's requirements. So you talked about boundaries a little bit ago, and it would be great to come back to that. But, you know, positive boundaries are so important. And as I say, you know, what we bring into the industry now is your no is a gift. And in the past it was because there was no forum by which you could professionally offer your requirements.

When people did say, no, I don't want to take my bra off all of a sudden when I haven't been asked that and the camera's rolling. Or no, I don't want to be touched around my neck. Or, no, I don't want to perform some sort of sexual content because, I come from a religion where that's not suitable for me. None of that was in place. And so therefore, people's boundaries were sort of over, overstepped. And then Verobeian act wanted to say yes, wanted to seem compliant. Or if they didn't, then they absolutely, you know, were in fear of losing their job. And that is what happened. If they said, no, I won't do this. And so the shift to inviting that someone's personal requirements were actually part of the professional process. And that

shift to an actor being able to say, this is what I require. And as I said, listen in to yourself. So we're going to talk about listening to your body, which is such a hugely important part of both what's offered with the menstrual cycle awareness is the shift to go, no, your body knows. Listen to yourself. And the same now with actors saying, listen to your body, listen to your impulse, and then to know and to trust that your know is a gift. Yeah. So then we can all professionally and artistically and creatively trust your body. Trust your own. yes and you only perform what is in your freely given yes. Then the, and as you're saying, the ease and the openness that you could feel in every cell

of both watching and then for a performer, you know, I talk about when they're being listened to and heard and feel empowered and autonomous, then they can be in free flow creatively. And then, of course, particularly with sex education, so many of the characters and the storytelling were awkward and, you know, are clumsy and not knowing. So they were in, the characters were in Boundflow, but the actor personally can be in free flow. And then that's what you can see that we can all sit back and enjoy these characters, you know, exploring this delicate, you know, tentative subject and enjoy their character emotional arc. And that's what's joyous to, to bring, you know, like you say, to sex education and to bring into the industry. And then we also get

to see actual sex on screen. You know, growing up, getting into my teens and my 20s and seeing more sex on screen, I was like, oh my God, I'm really doing it wrong. Because like my elbow sticks in his ribs and it's all sweaty and like, you know, it doesn't look nice. So what's wrong with me? Am I weird?

Am I getting it wrong? No, because sex doesn't look like that. So it's like you're, and I want to talk to you about this later about how we see ourselves, you're doing us all a big favor. because you're just normalising that sex is messy and weird and awkward and uncomfortable and gorgeous and all the other things. This is it. First of all, I have to say, you know, it comes from the writing.

So I have to honour Laurie Nunn and all the people who, you know, are part of that writer's team because it comes from the writing. But this is it. That's natural and normal intimate content. And that's what's so joyous and amazing about, you know, sort of the writing in sex education. And it's right and proper it completed. It's arc. And in a way it'd be great if there's.

something else, another TV series or something that's out there. But this is it, you know, in the mirror chapter talking about how important it is the mirror of what we think, you know, we're being told. And of course, I really believe that our art reflects humanity back to itself. And if you go through history, you know, you've got Shakespeare and people didn't read, you know, and so you had people going to see the plays and then you get into the novel, Jane Austen and all the rest of it. and of course, you know, sort of, you know, wonderful plays. But then right now, how, you know, the most, the way most of us consume our entertainment is through our screens,

be it TV or film. And then, of course, our younger generation, ever more shorter, you know, ways of consuming your entertainment through YouTube and Instagram and everything. But it's acknowledging that for me, our art should both entertain and also should reflect humanity back to itself. And this is actually where I was listening to the conversation with Chloe Zhao. That is, I was absolutely resonating with what she was saying. But then in this place of our intimacy, what we see on screen we think is telling us,

as you are saying, Sophie, how we should be. And when it's a distorted image, when, you know, you're kissing and then suddenly there's penetration happening, you know, after like 30 seconds of kissing, and people thinking that that's how it should be, And then the greatest presentation regarding sexual issues of, you know, women to the GP is vaginal pain. Yeah. And that's part of it. You know, you need time to open up.

You need time to lubricate. But how are people supposed to know? And then, of course, when I'm turning to pornography and particularly where our young people are turning to pornography, for me, again, I just want to be really clear. The adult industry is right and proper in its place. And when it's, you know, for who it's. for the adult community. But of course, when our young people in a void of positive sex education are turning to it to teach them,

and then they're seeing images like affixiation as part of what they think is as normal and natural intimate content. Again, if you choose to explore that kind of BDS and play great as an adult, understanding the techniques, understanding the boundaries, but when our young people are turning to it without having that overall support, of really good education about positive sexual awakening. So again, so the distorted image in the mirror, or the idea of the mirror of what we get when we're seeing content that doesn't reflect our humanity back to itself in a truthful way. And that is what's beautiful and glorious as intimacy coordinators,

honoring really good writing, to then really help to bring proper anatomy of arousal, even the anatomy of dysfunction in a more truthful way. so it helps all the audience out there to know what's natural and what's normal and then to embrace that and enjoy, you know, taking that what they might have learned into their own intimate lives. So it's taboo busting, isn't it? It's just opening things up. Yes.

One of the things that I really appreciated that you shared, you were speaking about how women, especially, are portrayed with intimacy on camera. And you said, at its simplest, the shot design of most films perpetuates the notion that women are passive creatures longing to be looked at, whereas men are invariably in positions of power. The basic grammar of cinema is reinforcing the sense that women are objects of desire, sitting or lying around and looking beautiful, while men are active beings always ready to do something. And can you speak to what that does to us en masse to have that as the way that we're portrayed when it comes to intimacy? That's right. So I had the joy of giving intimate.

interviewed by Nina Menkis for her brilliant documentary brainwashed sex camera power, which as you said, you know, sets out that the how they shot design and how a woman's body is perceived and how it's shot is unconsciously sort of brainwashing us into thinking that's how a woman should be perceived as opposed to how a man perceived. And she brilliantly shows how even when, invariably when there's a naked man historically that they have been shown. in action and being, you know, sort of like, you know, still in power of themselves, and that historically the female form has been shown, as you said, as a disembodied, you know, with a shot and the gaze going up the body and sort of disembodied body parts of desire. You know, what's happened in our industry is fundamentally, let's just stick with TV and film, it's fundamentally being written by men, directed by men, and with a shot design created by men.

And I was so delighted that Autumn Durald-Argapur won the Oscar for the best cinematographer for sinners. And I was able to get that into the book at the last lot of edits to really celebrate the fact that up until 2026, there had been no female cinematographer that ever won the Oscar and she is the first woman to win the best Oscar for her. cinematography for sinners. Yes, autumn. Yes. So what that does is, is that the male gaze and the male experience of the female in their, in their desire and in intimacy, comes from that place. And again, I want to be really clear, there is nothing wrong with the male gaze. It's not to vilify the male gaze as such. But the problem is that the male gazers are fundamental default. Yes, and instead of it going, you know, and also that thing of, like, Like if it's a woman, if it's a film written by a woman, directed by woman,

perhaps cinematography also being a woman, it's considered a woman's film or female film, whereas everything else is just a film. Right. Yeah, isn't it? It's so mad. And the thing is, along with our medical profession, the understanding of our menstrual cycle, our female journey through our lives and our cyclical journey through our lives has not been really given a highlight and equal standing.

And again, a large part of my work in the intimacy on-set gardens is about bringing respect to everybody. Yes, no matter what, you know, how you choose to express yourself in your body, in your gender, how you choose to express yourself in your relationships. Just wherever you are, whatever, you know, what culture you come from, what religion you come from, just bring fundamental respect. But the problem is to actually bring fundamental respect to our lives and how we live it in the female body. Yes, we are considered a minority, as it were. in how we're represented on our TV and film,

but we're half the population. And that's the big part of what we need to do in order to shift actually how our experience of how we live in our lives is actually shown on screen. And sadly, you know, my experience of the work that I have been doing over the last few years, many, many more TV and film productions being written by women and then directed by women,

those films then do not, rise to the fore as than as far as what is acclaimed and accredited and, you know, championed when we come to the awards. And that really matters. It really matters. And we've got a long way to go. So back to, you know, with the impact of how our bodies are seen and how we are seen in our agency regarding our intimacy and our sexual lives. Yes, this passive depiction, it gets into all of our psyches unconsciously. And again, just to become consciously conscious of that, and then to flip it and to know that we have agency, you know, we have desires, you know, our positive sexual awakening, our positive pursuit of our lives, and us as women being

the protagonist of our lives. Exactly. Yes. And we've got a long way to go. But that's what we're, you know, just really inviting the world out there and particularly writers out there. we need to write that well, write it better, and then really telling stories from a female perspective and just asking for parity, asking for equality. And then of course, but also fundamentally for everybody. So say from the trans community or people from the global majority or from the LGBTQ community, you know, is just trying to open out and really invite all aspects of society to be given their voice and to be supported in their stories being told. Yes. Thank you so much. It was gorgeous. Everything you're saying, the word that's really

staying with me from what you just shared is the protagonist. I'm just recognizing that growing up, I did not feel like I was the protagonist of my life. I didn't see it around me. And now I get to one of my favorite shows at the moment is Bridgeton. And I really enjoy the intimacy on that show because it is often through the female gaze or they are equal partners in the intimate experience and I think, yeah, there's something like that's being reclaimed for my inner teen back there who's like, yeah, see, I can be the protagonist of my life.

It's healing what we're talking about, really. Completely, absolutely. To shift that gaze, to shift that lens and having these wonderful, you know, female writers so shone down for Bridgeton and of course I have to honour as Lizzie Torbett who is the intimacy coordinator fundamentally on that series and to really celebrate and honour the impact of her beautiful work on that production.

And then, for example, the female writing and the female experience that I've been working on is, for example, Michaela Coles, I May Destroy You and how she's written that. And it was really a joy to honour and to put up on its feet the amazing intimate scenes for My Lady Jane, written by Gemma Burgess and Meredith Glyn, two absolutely fantastic female writers writing this intimate content from the female lens

with explicit consent, absolutely present in each and every intimate scene. So yeah, and speaking of Michaela Cole, so she comes up a couple of times in the book, one time that she won an award and in her acceptance speech, she thanked you for creating, for allowing, Tell me, tell me what she thanked you for. Yeah. It was truly astounding. I had no idea that that was going to happen. I was actually working in Prague at the time and I suddenly had a load of text coming in. So she thanked me for creating a safe space and supporting that production to be able to tell stories of abuse without the actors being abused in the process. And she really called that all sets should have intimacy coordinators.

But beyond those challenging intimate content, again, her wonderful writing, writing from, you know, her perspective of a young black woman in South East London and in her community, you know, such beautiful, detailed exploration around consent and abuse. So while there were many challenging intimate content, there was also some really gorgeous, loving intimate content. It was an absolute joy and a privilege to support her and her writing and her work. Yes, and among that content there was period sex. Yes, absolutely. So to our menstruality topic, I mean, I haven't watched it, I want to. But to actually see sex on screen, which involves periods, is so groundbreaking. It's mad that it's groundbreaking because it's happening all the time.

But, yeah, can you tell us about, yeah, that experience and the importance of us seeing that on screen? Well, this is it when I was researching in preparation for filming that scene and I was looking for other places where there were actual intimate content while someone was menstruating. And I couldn't find any at the time. What I found was people talking about having intimacy while on periods, but not actually any scenes. So first of all, you know, we talk about good writing and bringing in the detail of the writing.

So what was glorious actually not just the period intimate content, but in the episode leading up to that, you see her character Arabella going to the toilet, you know, while she's on her period and changing, changing her tampon and changing her pads. And again, yes, thank you, making it natural and making it normal. we've come a long way from the always adverts where the blood was blue liquid on the pads the statistics are that on average a woman will spend about seven to eight years or roughly 350 to 400 weeks of their life yes menstruating and then dealing with the paraphernalia of their menstruation in her lifetime yeah but how often do we see it it is natural it is normal and you

know and the joy of us our menstrual cycle means that we have the joy of creating new life and giving birth. It is the most fabulous and wonderful thing. It is a privilege in order to do it. Well, you know, everything that goes with it. And for, you know, our young boys and young girls to understand that this is what happens and it's a natural and normal thing.

So we open it out. So it's absolutely not taught as this thing to be shameful or to be hidden or to be silent. you know, words like, oh, I've got the curse. You know, those kind of words do not help us in order to understand that this is a wonderful and beautiful and empowering and fabulous part of our lived life. And then again, this is why, you know, the Red School and everything that is being shared and understanding us, you know, the cycle of our menstruation is so empowering.

So getting to Michaela's amazing scene, again, in this scene, you know, she's, you know, they're getting it on. so with Arabella and Biagio and she says I'm menstruating but he goes fine and they come so the things that I love doing we actually had the thing of her getting a towel out and putting it down they had to edit away so you don't actually see that and then you know getting it on taking pants off seeing the pad as part of the pants and then a tampon being inserted and him saying oh can I take this out

now when I was talking with the lovely actor Mojuan who plays Biagio and I was talking him through the beats of the scene and goes really really does this happen? So again, just, you know, that, you know, if someone's got a heavy flow, they're going to have a tampon in as well as, you know, pads. And that kind of detail is beautiful. And then what I absolutely loved was then taking the tampon out

and then looking back and seeing a blood clot. And what I love about Michaela's writing is that Vyargeo's response is one of wonder and interest and curiosity and going to feel and explore. That was so important. important, so important that it wasn't one of, oh, this is disgusting, but that curiosity and, you know, her sharing and it's natural and it's normal and having the opportunity to explore that. So then it can tell a story that rings true out there in the world and it's

something that is really positive and I hope lifts the lid. And I would love, again, just call to arms for all writers, you know, particularly female writers, to write this into our into our storytelling as a positive and beautiful part of our lived experience in our intimacy and our sexuality. I'm going to pause this conversation with ITER to share an invitation with you because the doors for Red School's next menstruality leadership program are now open. This is the world's first leadership training rooted in the power of the menstrual cycle. And if you're curious about it, now is a good time to head over to menstrualityleadership.com where you can explore the curriculum, what the program is about, how it can support you and your leadership, as well as lots of stories from the graduates.

And now is a good time because there's a super early bird offer where you'll receive £500 off the course until the end of July. And I'm going to share a story next from Tams and Fagan, who's one of the graduates. And she shares how the menstruality leadership program has supported her personally, as well as with her important work to end violence against women and girls. So before the MLP, I was practising cycle awareness, but I couldn't really understand what it was meant to do for me. But then with the MLP, it was really like, oh, this is going to, like, heal some stuff. I don't think I realised how much it was going to change.

Yeah, so I think the greatest takeaway for me from the MLP, was, yeah, this shift that has happened in terms of tending to my trauma and what I've been through and gave me an almost like a blueprint to work with. Yeah, it's been really therapeutic. After, you know, this process of the MLP and even before that, when I started practicing cycle awareness, it was almost like I was descending what I thought was away from the sector. I thought I was like giving up and not doing that anymore.

and then I went almost like down into the underworld with the Dark Mother and did all of this like work with the MLP and then now I'm rising again and I'm realizing, oh, there's actually a new way to tackle this. There's a more embodied way, there's a more rooted way that can really get to the core of what we're dealing with and it is cultural and there's layers to it and cycle awareness really helps.

tend to each layer. So it's just giving me a new framework that, yeah, helps me tackle the issue but also means that I'm not abandoning myself in the process because it can be exhausting, you can get burnt out. We talk about vicarious trauma a lot in the sector, which is where, you know, you pick up a lot of

what you hear other people have been through. And having cycle awareness really helps for you to tend to your knees so that you're not dealing with that. Yeah, it's true. It's life-changing. Such a good call to action there. I'm just having this vivid memory. I've shared this before on the podcast,

but I think I can't say it enough. I have my first job in my early 20s, and my boss was telling me a story of how her husband had been looking for something in her handbag, and had found a tampon, wrapped tampon, had pulled it out of her bag

and thrown it across the room because it was so disgusting to him. And it does something to us, to hear those stories. It does something to us to see that. It tells us something about this part of our bodies, our wombs, our vulvers, our vaginas, that there's something wrong with them. And this is, I've been wanting to talk about this on the podcast for a long time, but this newish phenomenon of people wanting to change the way their volvers look. And one of the things that you shared in the book, I'm so glad that you shared it. You said a report published by Women's Health Victoria and

Australia in 2024, found that almost a quarter of respondents aged 18 to 24, felt anxious, unhappy or embarrassed about how their labia look, while 35% associate their labia with negative words such as weird, disgusting or ugly. One in 10 of the 130 respondents said they'd considered labiaplasty. And I'd just love to ask, I'da, what you would share to someone listening, who has a young woman in her life, if they are, like, trusting her with that. information that is feeling that they need to do something like labiaplasty. Yeah. So thank you so much for all this.

I'm so inspired to share this. So this was in my research in writing the book and also from my experience more as a mother of then a teenage daughter and her saying that she was aware that as her friends were becoming sexually active, that they felt that they had to take off all their body hair, including their pubic hair. And this is a phenomenon that's happening in the world right now is that somehow men and women are feeling that to take all their hair off, including their pubic hair. And so, of course, what's happening is, and our young people are seeing their labias for their first time in their lives, and also possibly historically, because pubic hair is a natural normal part

of, you know, how our bodies are. And then also female genital organs are so much insight, you know, and that sense of, you know, I was reading and historically even some culture's names for the female genitalia are about shame and to be hidden. And so the shift that's happening, you know, so our young people are seeing their labias. And then because there's not positive education about how our labias look, let alone internally what happens, the anatomy of desire, which was also very excited to share. So the shape of our labias isn't being seen and also just that overall fundamental education around our clitorises and our vaginas and understanding what's natural and normal

but also how vitally important they are for our sex and sensuality and our pleasure. And for me that's a big shift again, that turning upside down, the idea that the shame that is so inherent with actually our sexual awakening and opening out to enjoying and understanding our sensuality and therefore the pleasure in our bodies,

we are wired for pleasure to be part of our sexual and sensual experiences for those with a penis, for those with a vulva. And our inner and outer labias are so much part of that and the amount of nerve endings, particularly in the inner labia. So with myself exploring different places where different shapes and sizes of our vulvas are actually celebrating, So as I talk about Laura Dodsworth, three books where she has photographed 100 people's breasts, another book, 100 people's penises, and then 100 people's vulvas and labia. And then also spoken to

those people and they share their stories. And what she says that's so sad is that how much shame goes with, you know, how people feel about the different shapes and sizes of their bodies. and I just really want to celebrate that every single body has a different shape and size. You are unique, the same as your fingertip is unique, the shape of your ears are unique. Your whole body is unique and it is beautiful. And again, a lot of what I'm saying is, yes, the mirror of what we're shown to us about, you know, how fat or thin somebody is or what we're sold to us and how we should be in our entertainment industry is one thing. but actually inviting you to take ownership of your body,

take ownership of your lived life experience in your impulse and your desires and your wants and your needs. And that includes how your body looks and taking time to love and appreciate all aspects of your body. And in particular, your genitalia, be somebody with a penis, someone with a vulgar or someone's transitioning. It's so important. And then to understand how it's inextricably linked with our pleasure, with our touch with ourselves and then into our relationships.

Yeah, just really want to highlight that. When you love yourself, when you can relish in your body, listen to your body, and then take that communication to your partner, ask me for what you want, asking what they want, and go with that, then you're able to just have that open and free and joyous communication and through from that pleasure, the sharing of pleasure with your own body, with their body and together. And in her book, Come as You Are,

Emily Nagoski speaks not only about the consequence of women's constant self-criticism and the negative effects this has on mental health and physical health and well-being, but also how this influences our relationships. And I'm quoting from her, she says, women who feel worse about their bodies have less satisfying, riskier sex, with less pleasure, more unwanted consequences and more pain. So we don't want that. And for our young people, if your parents are a teenager, first of all, for parents, I have to say, resource yourselves.

It's hard, isn't it, as a parent? So in the next bit, I'm really excited to share in my book is in the sex education chapter, in order to be able to help our young people to listen to themselves, to have a language to then ask for what they want, to listen to their own impulses. That comes right from the get-go, right, from, you know, how you are with yourself, how you can be honest with your kids, and then help your kids be honest with themselves. And then as parents in order to help invite the open communication and transparency with your kids. And at the end of the sex education chapter, there's a whole list of resources of books for parents and then books for young kids and then books for older kids. And helping, yes, your young people to enjoy the development of their bodies, enjoy their awakening into sexual pleasure and their sexual awakening into relationships,

but to dovetail that with understanding. It's about fundamental honouring and love and respect of yourself and your emotional body as well as your physical body and then taking that honouring, loving and respecting of any other human being that you choose to interact with, be it that you choose that it's a one might stand or it's a long-going relationship that it's all embedded in open communication and consent

and then taking that into your emotional body and that care and loving. And in that way, we can help our young people to then really have positive sexual awakening and understanding themselves and their anatomy and their arousal and then having positive explorations as their journey into, you know, loving relationships. Yes. It was so game-changing for me. I think this was in my 20s, when I saw pictures of different volvers. And I was like, oh yeah, mine looks like that one. But it was really game-changing for me to just see that. And then just remarkable that we don't have access to that in kind of a

information, but there is access to this huge world of porn, as you spoke about earlier. That's right. And then that's where, you know, I worked with a lovely Hazel Mead, who's done some amazing drawings of all shapes of penises and bulbers as a really joyous celebration that we're all different shapes and sizes, colours and qualities of, you know, curves and wrinkliness and smoothness and all of it's natural, all of it's normal and all of it to be celebrated and enjoyed. Yeah, that's a great resource to show, to show the youth. Yeah, brilliant. Okay, I definitely want to speak about the anatomy of arousal. We can have a whole conversation about this. But, you know, you've spoken so much about what intimacy requires and I wonder if you

could walk us through, yeah, how women's anatomy of arousal is cyclical or those that have vulvas is cyclical and often much slower than men's or those with penises. When I first worked with a lovely couple's therapists and one of the couple therapists I worked with is a lady called Lindsay Blair and I asked her, you know, what are the myths that are out there that are perpetuated through as we've already spoken about, you know, intimate content that doesn't show us, you know, and she laughed and she said, you know, spontaneous, you know, arousal and penetration after like 20 seconds and and then couples coming to her just as you were saying and feeling that they were how they were doing their intimate content was wrong

and when they would explain what they were doing she was saying you're natural and you're normal and then there's the idea of libido and that's where the other sense of um you know a woman sort of feeling oh i've got low libido because they're not ready for full on penetrative sex as quickly as their um that their partner with a penis and um and they were saying but your your libido is natural it just has a different rhythm and a different cycle. And of course what we see of the male arousal, you know, because it's on the outside and we see and it's very visible that that growing erection, but actually sort of it is linear again, but also there is still a journey through it. So you have that arousal and then there is a plateau.

Yes, and then there's a second degree of arousal through to orgasm and then that falling away. So interestingly, the drawing of that looks like a mountain, so that are up and a bit of a plateau and then rising and falling down. Whereas for a woman, again, our arousal is cyclical ways, which is where we can get into it and we can start on that journey. But then because, in particular, we're wired to have that awareness, perhaps we've got young kids and they're crying that we can step off and go out to it and then come back and rejoin and have that journey. So again, our anatomy of arousal is so much more cyclical than that, you know, straight journey or that the linear journey of the masculine. And again, there's no right or wrong.

Again, it's just understanding what the anatomy is of both so that we can help to understand how then we fit together in that journey. And that's where it can be so damaging that we're not taught the anatomy of the female arousal. And so Lindsay Blair shared with us the internal anatomy of arousal of the female anatomy. So first of all, the first thing that was absolutely mind-blowing to me was that when she showed us actually the the anatomy of the penis with the anatomy of the clitoris. But you can see how actually they come from exactly the same cells in the womb. And the clitoris has as much, if not more,

the tissue that becomes engorged as the penis. But of course, it's internal and all we see of it is the hood, yes, is the hood of the clitoris. Whereas all the rest of it, it's this lovely Y-shaped organ that's internal and around our labia. So that's, first of all, to understand that and to know that that time for the clitoris,

the whole of the clitoris to become engorged is part of it. And then, but internally, that our womb starts lying sort of horizontal over the bladder and then with our vagina sort of closed. And just as our clitoris is becoming engorged, so is our wound becoming engorged

and likewise our vagina. and as that happens, the womb is gradually lifting and lifting until it finally becomes more or less unvertical and as that is opening, so is our vagina opening until you get to that point that you really have a beautiful, engorged clitoris and open vagina with a lifted womb. And that is the point that, you know, that feeling of, now I'm ready.

And to understand that and to know that. So it's not like, oh, she's got a low libido. It's like, no, no, no, this is what's happening internally and to know that and to relish and enjoy that. And for both, you know, whatever your female, female, male, female, to have this understanding of that journey of arousal and then through to orgasm and then through to releasing and letting go. For me, it was a revelation. I knew, you know, I was taught this in my mid-50s and I thought, oh my goodness, you know, to understand this and to see it. is just such a joy and to understand. And again, you know, for me, all of this sex education,

the anatomy of our arousal, the shapes of our genitals, the anatomy of the internal arousal of the female genitalia and internal organs, and then right the way through to understanding our menstrual cycles and then the cycle of our menopause should be taught in our positive sex education in our schools. Because everybody needs to know about it. It's not a purely female thing. And it's our young boys and men need to know about it if they're going to be in heterosexual relationships. If you're in queer male relationships, great.

But to understand and, you know, to relish that understanding of the anatomy of arousal. And then also the other aspects that I'm really excited to share that comes that I share after this is also the anatomy of dysfunction. And the reality is that 30 to 40% of people, men and women alike, will experience some form of sexual difficulty at some point of their lives. knowing this not only helps us to approach the subject with empathy, but also remind us that these experiences are far more common than we might think. And therefore, so important. And again, we lift the lid and just help it to be known as part of just who we are as human beings so they can be talked about and shared.

So all of this education, I'm really passionate, as you can tell, that actually we lift the lid as a res school has done on our cyclical journeys in our lives and through to our menopause. but we share it for everybody. And so that again, that education and understanding brings, you know, sort of a release and a respect for everybody. And then therefore we can actually bring that into our intimate and sexual and sensual lives in a way with far more health and hopefully people can have far more enjoyable, intimate encounters.

Yes, please. One of the areas of life or phasingesias, of life where there's a lot of conversation about sex and a lot of misunderstanding around sex and desire is in menopause and in the approach to menopause and postmenopause too. And you have this whole chapter finding the enchantress and talking about intimacy in our older years. And I just wonder if you can tell us about this archetype of the entrantress and how she can support us as we're moving into our third act in life. So what's wonderful right now as, you know, with the awareness and, you know, how menopause is spoken about, there's been such a huge shift with people really claiming and exploring and understanding and then writing about it.

You've got Davina McCall, in particular Marilla Frostrop, equally the Red School, then has written Weiss Power. So again, supporting a positive journey through your menopause. It's a natural and normal part of, of, you know, the female cycle of life. And so, again, owning that. But also, I certainly, as I was going through it, sort of going, oh, my goodness, I don't feel fit for purpose to, you know, to operate as a human being as I was going through the full on experiences of the hormonal changes. But getting through it and also there's what's also wonderful is you've got those books

to help you understand what's happening. For me, again, it's so important to understand. that the body, instead of taking estrogen from the ovaries, is then when you need estrogen to be created, it's coming from the adrenal glands. And that's why you have these surges of energy when you need estrogen in their body because it comes with the adrenaline. And so those kind of things of anatomically understanding what's happening to your body and why it's happening and how it serves you and what the function is was so important. And then also that sharing that there are so many different ways that you can support yourself. So there's such, you know, different, you know,

developments and positive developments in HRT and the aspect of bioidentical HRT and also the understanding of sort of the mixture of estrogen, testosterone and progesterone. And those mixtures of those drugs and how they're monitored and how they can then support you if you're choosing to go on HRT. But then also there's, you know, herbal remedies that you can take and also hermium. There's many different places that you can go to support yourself. But overall, also, it's just so important to embrace this journey in life. And for me, in this chapter I write about Greta Skarky saying, she's sick of the grey wig syndrome.

So whenever she's, you know, got a character who's over 60, then suddenly you're given a grey wig. And she's saying, look around. And that's also what's so gorgeous, you know. are so, you know, people born in the 60s during flower power and the freedom of the pill and women who really are, you know, we work, we have autonomy, you know, focus on our careers as well as balancing family. We are journeying now into our menopausal and postmenopausal and older years with this sense of understanding of this is our lives and this is what we want, this is what we want

from our careers in a way that perhaps wasn't there in past generations. So we are really, really lucky. And also the quality of our food and exercise and how we can live. So we do not look like grannies, I would hasten to add, possibly until we're into our 80s. And again, we have lovely role models as Davina McAul, Manila Frostdrop, Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet, Andy McDowell, Francis McDermott, all these people, Gillian Anderson, oh my good, look at all these wonderful, vibrant women that are showing us out there in the world that this is who we are in this period of our lives.

And for me also, I love the aspect of the Red School of just really sharing with you that when you're born up until you start menstruating, that's who you are in your hormonal journey through life. And then you go on this cyclical journey. And again, the joy of, you know, having, you know, the journey of the eggs released from your ovaries through to menstruation and what that gives you. when that falls away and away you're back to who you were before being on that cyclical journey and you're truly who you are but we have experience we have a sense of wisdom we have you know

trainings we have careers you know you've experienced who you are hopefully you know if you're lucky enough to be a mother and all the rest of it but we still have vibrancy sexiness energy so it's about really embracing this middle point so instead of you know the ages of women being child mother crone. It's, you know, we're child, mother and then enchantress and then crone. So this aspect is part of our lives where we're postmenopausal, we're not, you know, battered around or sort of on that journey of the hormones from our menstrual cycle and then still full of energy and intention, you know, and desire and, you know, our autonomy for what we want for ourselves. I certainly have a plan. I know there's, you know, what I want to achieve in the

next 20 years of my life. By the time I'm 80, and I have the energy and the desire and the facility to be able to go out and achieve that. So that's what I'm really inviting to celebrate this time in our life. It's an absolutely wonderful, fabulous time in our life. And one of the gorgeous celebrations of that is Chris and Scott Thomas speech in Fleabell-Ban. and again, brilliantly written by, oh my goodness, Anna. Phoebe, Phoebe Wallerbridge. So this speech, so Christian Scott Thomas does about the menopause written by Phoebe Wallerbridge.

It's absolutely joyous and it's in the book, just really claiming and celebrating what the menopause gives you. And then into our intimate lives. There's so much out there as well. We have HRT, estrogen, pestries, and that shift to understanding your body might shift and change. change, but as I'm advocating throughout the book, it's about listening to yourself, yes, feeling how your body is shifting and changing. And then also known there's wonderful adult

things that you can explore out there. So lubrication, different toys, possibly, bullets and vibrators, and then how you can explore with yourself first and then taking that into your relationship with your partner. A lovely thing that Lindsay Blair really shared with me is perhaps then understanding all the different gametes and journey to intimacy. And so often with heterosexual intimate content, the idea that just the penetrative sexual part is the end goal. And she, the offer is perhaps just lift the lid on that and just take a step back and to understand all, you know, of that journey,

you know, the foreplay, the kissing and the touch, oral sex, through to how you might come to orgasm, all of it is beautiful sexual encounters and to sort of shift up and change it. And so when you shift your idea about what your experience of a really loving intimate experience might be, that really helps as well to go to let's just open it out and look at how we want to be sensual and sexual with each other through to orgasm or to both of us to feel that we've, you know, been satisfied as it were. and that also is really freeing and I really invite that exploration into your older years and really opening out so that you really embrace all forms of your intimate and sensual experience with your partner.

Thank you so much. What I'm thinking of is how in menopause I get to sit with so many women and folks in menopause and postmenopause, I feel very lucky to do so. And the theme is how much easier it is to express ourselves, fully and truly and to wield our no, whereas maybe in the earlier in our lives, but there was more people pleasing, more estrogen-fueled people-pleasing and yesing when we meant no. And you have this, you share this beautiful practice in the book, The Power of No, can you tell us about that? That's right. So what's really wonderful is to explore your know from the different

places and centres in the body. and I developed this workshop so we first of all connect with the different centres in the body so your base centre your central body your emotional body your sense of self your heart your throat how you communicate in the world your intellect and your spiritual self and then exploring know from each of those places and it was so revelatory and what was so gorgeous is that so often we think that our know is something that's a block is stopping it's negative and actually in this exploration of the power of no. It helps you to see that there are so many different qualities of no. You know, my sense of self that is just playful and fun. The know that is the loving no,

the know of communication, the intellectual know. So all of them have their different qualities and intentions. And to explore them and feeling in yourself and in your body to explore saying no from each of those different places was absolutely revelatory and so just shifting what that sense of saying no was about. And I really would invite that it's such a gift to anybody. And as you say, I love what someone said about the word men are pause. Menopause. So there's that aspect to it.

And as you say, as we get into this part of our life, having more confidence to be able to call a halt and stop. But actually, I would really invite everybody, you know, from your younger years to actually know, that listening to yourself and asking for your needs, as I say, is a gift to everybody. And then it frees you up to really honour yourself, but then it also frees whoever you're in relationship with up,

to also be themselves, and then you can truly go into a free and honest communication with each other. And so, yes, it's wonderful as we get into our older years to have that sense of fuck it and calling our boundaries and what we need. But if we help our young people, oh, my goodness, you know, so important, you know, again, I'm really calling to arms that, again, as parents, we help our teenagers to really have this language, how to call their boundaries in a positive way, honoring Molly Manning Walker's film,

how to have sex, but how heartbreaking it is. And so it's really important that we teach both our young boys and girls, trans, whatever, however you choose to express yourself, but how you call your boundaries, particularly around your body and those sexual awakening so that you can listen to yourself and be able to call your boundaries. and it's about giving our young people a language and to practice listening not just to what someone says, but how they say it, the language that they're using well, they're saying it, what's happening in their body. And for all of our young people to understand that consent is only a freely given yes.

A lack of response is not a yes. Or if someone's, you know, sort of shrinking in their body, that is, you know, but not saying anything, that is not a yes. and helping everybody to understand that and to practice that. So that, you know, particularly sort of like I know that we're finishing GCSEs. You know, as a right of passage, either, you know, as in how to have sex, they go off to Abitha or going off to Reading or latitude festivals. But at that point, they're so vulnerable.

16 is that place where you feel you're an adult and yet the next minute you're a child. And it's so important that our young people are helped to understand about listening to themselves, empowering themselves, consent and boundaries so that they journey into their sexual awakening in a really positive way and don't end up having experiences where there's coercion and yeah, and something that will kick them off into something that is negative and yeah, so we really help our young people to have positive sexual awakening. Yes, oh, a thousand percent. I just so wish someone had taught me that when I was six years.

Yes, I really do. I'm having a vision as you're talking of, so if we do honour the full spectrum of like coming into the menstrual cycling years, honouring them, having your menarchy process, your first periods process being an honouring experience, and then you actually get honoured instead of gaslit throughout your menstruating years, you know, whether you choose to or are able to have children or not, that that process has respect around it from the community, from the medical profession, and then coming into menopause, that that is also honoured and dignity. If that whole spectrum was healthy in our community, just imagining the post-menopausal women and books coming to the young ones and teaching them about no, teaching them about consent inside that healthy cycle, like, let's create that world. And thank you so much for all the ways that you are helping to create that well with your amazing work. Thank you.

Thank you. I mean, originally when I wrote this book, the intent of it was the last bit was to be Utopia. and so there's this offering into the world, in an ideal world, this is how it can be, and this is what I'm passionate to share. And I mentioned what I wanted to achieve by the time I'm 80, but one of those is getting this inspiration, what I'm offering of positive sexual awakening and positive sex education in our schools into our education system.

Yes, oh, I feel so relieved knowing that you're falling for the next 20th. is if there's anything we can do to help we're totally with you i may well call on you yes please please i mean we have a lot of women and folks in our community who are with the youth educating yeah there's a lot um so how if people want to find out more about the book about also the guidelines how can they find out more so um the book is out um both the the hardback but the paperback um came out just on thursday last week on the 4th of June and I'm really excited about the paperback. I've had the opportunity to edit it and sort of put in some more detail that I'm really inspired to share. So if you go to Waterstones to Penguin and it's also on sale for Amazon and all, you know, good booksellers.

It is also available on audiobook. I'm really excited to share with you about the audio book because a big part of this book is actually in order to support you in that journey to listening to yourself and becoming embodied is actually sharing the fundamentals of my movement practice. So instead of just saying be grounded, I'm sharing with you exercises about connecting with the foot, walking barefoot, massage on the foot. And actually the very first exercise, if you want to listen to yourself, it's about just pausing and giving yourself time and space and the most beautiful. and simple exercise there is 20 connected breaths. That's what I start with. So that's there. And then we've got exercises of exploring your kinesphere

and then exercise of the sensuous bodies, both in the swing which gives you release, but also the eight silken movements. And in the audiobook, all the exercises that are intended for you to do physically, I have underscorted music. So you can put your AirPods in and you can listen to those exercises,

while I talk you through them. And so I really invite that if anybody, you know, get the book and read it. But once you read it, if you're inspired by the exercises, please get the audio book because that is where we're offering the resource for you to put your AirPods in and listen to the exercises and do them physically. Other than that, please go to the Intimacy Onset website. And there you have all information about my work as an intimacy coordinator, as well as information about the book.

as well as workshops coming up. So I've just, I just ran a day's workshop where I did exercises from the book. We did the footwork and grounding in the morning and then the sensuous body in the afternoon. I shall be repeating that, that workshop in the autumn and then also I'm going to be running the workshop on the power of no. That's, yeah, and it's such a joy to, to share, and I'm really excited to be offering those as well to the world. So keep an eye or content, us at intimacy onset, ask to be put on the mailing list, and then you can be contacted for the dates as they come out for these workshops. Fantastic. Well, I'm rooting for you with this mission that you have over the next 20 years, and it's been so gorgeous and such a privilege

to have this time with you. Thanks, Iita. Thank you so much, Sophie. Thank you for the conversation. Thanks for tuning in today. I felt like I learned so much in that conversation, and there were so many topics that I've been wanting to speak about for a long time on the podcast, so I hope you enjoyed it too. If you know someone who you think would enjoy it, would benefit from this conversation, please forward it to them. And also, if you want to support the podcast and the work we're doing here, then it really helps if you can leave a five-star review on either Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

because it helps those platforms to show the podcast to new people. Okay, that's it for this week. Thank you for being with us. I'll be with you again in a couple of weeks time. And until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.