The Menstruality Podcast - 247. How Menopause Makes us Leaders for These Times (Alexandra & Sjanie)

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

It’s the first day of world menopause month, and we’re continuing to re-write the cultural narrative around menopause, by exploring the connection between psycho-spiritual initiation of menopause and leadership. Especially the kind of emergent, relational, responsive leadership that is needed in our world today. In Alexandra and Sjanie’s book, Wise Power, they share that menopause is a training ground in power, where we can learn how to lead from a place of vulnerable humility, holding the tension with complexity, uncertainty, and ambiguity. What could be more needed in the coming decade which will demand new levels of creativity, courage and leadership from us all? We explore:The menopause shadow work that enables us to fully face our inner critics, so that we can own our strengths and our blind spots. How to navigate the dark night of the soul that can come in menopause without getting lost to bitterness and resentment, and whilst staying open to life in all it’s messy fullness. How menopause ultimately helps us to unashamedly love what we’re good at, recognize our limits and blind spots and liberate ourselves to live and share our unique gifts---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolSophie Jane Hardy: @sophie.jane.hardy - https://www.instagram.com/sophie.jane.hardy

Welcome to the menstruality podcast where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexander and Sharnie, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, change makers and creatives to explore how you can, unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, welcome to the menstruality podcast. Thank you so much for listening. It's an exciting day. It's the first day of menopause awareness month. And at Red School, we're continuing to rewrite

the cultural narrative around menopause by exploring the connection between the psychos spiritual initiation of menopause and leadership, especially the kind of emergent, relational, responsive leadership that's needed in our world today. So Alexander and Shani in their book, Wise Power, share that menopause is a kind of training ground in power where we can learn how to lead from a place of vulnerability and humility, holding the tension with complexity and complexity and and uncertainty and ambiguity, and what could be more needed in the coming decade, which is going to demand new levels of creativity and courage and leadership from all of us.

In the conversation we look at the deep menopause shadow work that helps us to fully face our inner critics, how to navigate the dark night of the soul that can come in menopause without getting lost to bitterness and resentment and whilst staying open to life in all its messy fullness. That's such a leadership skill. And how menopause ultimately helps us to unashamedly love what we're good at, recognize our limits and blind spots,

and liberate ourselves to live and share our unique gifts. So let's get started with Alexander and Shani, how menopause makes us leaders for these times. Hey, good morning, you two. Let's start with our cycle checking. the tradition of this podcast. And I can kick us off. I'm on day five, so just finishing my bleed.

But the thing that I'm most present to is the intensity of life, aged 44, soon to be 45, in the quickening years in the run-up to menopause or the autumn of the menstruating years, and just how much more responsibility I have in my life. and how my capacity is shifting. It's a lot, particularly in this more vulnerable phase of my cycle. So I've got a bit of a headache. I'm, yeah, I feel like I'm shouldering things. And I'm looking forward to the weekend when I can rest.

You know, just the times when I can rest in life are becoming like these beacons of possibility for me. but very happy to be in this conversation looking forward to it. Yeah, how about you two? Well, I'm day 17 and so my cycle day has an autumnal flavor, which, as you know, is my kind of flavor of the decade. And it's interesting. What I'm experiencing today on the cycle day is, I think, speaking to a bigger theme need longing I have, which is, I just feel so much more interested in

what's cooking inside me. I'm interested in the kind of creative impulses that are arising in me. So I feel very slowed down today. I sort of woke up this morning in a kind of languor and sometimes I just want to, you know, do the things that I like to do that make me feel good. Get up, meditate, move. You know, this morning, it was, I was just wanting to follow the impulses that I felt in the moment, which were quite random and sort of unexpected, like, oh, this morning, I'd like just go sit in my garden and drink a cup of tea and not kind of do anything. And creative ideas and impulses that were coming that I really wanted to feel.

follow. And in fact, any of the sort of domestic tasks I had, things I had to do with my kids, jobs I have today, all feel like a bit of an interference with the following of this creative river inside me. So, yeah, the creative river is strong and the desire to retreat and be in some kind of sanctuary where I can have the exquisite luxury of following my own creative impulses, that's what I'm wanting right now. I'm getting big cat energy from you. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess I want to lie in the sun in a tree all day. I'm not being that creative river feel. I guess it's around day 18, 19 of the moon, something like that. I think I'm just behind you. The moon's just behind you, certainly. And I just feel a degree of, just pleasure and ease in my being and an expansiveness. But I'm just really enjoying a kind of resourcedness,

which is really lovely. And being very thoughtful about cherishing that and not expending it. Yeah. So I've been quite sort of thoughtful about what I've done this morning just to stay in the river of that nice energy. So I feel kind of good, really. Kind of good. Good. Well, we've got creative rivers flowing and goodness happening in Alexandra. So, yeah, we're set up well for this conversation.

And I was dreaming into this, you know, how menopause makes us the leaders for these times. And I was flicking through Wise Power, your book. And I found this three or four paragraphs. and I was like, boom, you say so much in these paragraphs. And what I wondered is, could we read this section of the book and then break it down really because it is full of leadership, wisdom? How does that sound? That's great.

Okay. Now, I could read it or we could all read it together, but then I was like, how is it to go to an author and be like, will you read your book to me? Like, how does that feel? Well, I put it out loud. is quite a novelty, but honestly, we can't remember writing half this stuff. I know.

When you read the quote to us, Sophie, and what's that message? I thought, wow, that's amazing. And I almost had this thought. Who wrote that? That was me. Okay, good. Well, you can read it back to yourself. I'll kick us off and then I'll hand over.

Okay, it'll be like school going around reading the book. Okay. So menopause is quite a training ground in power, a masterclass in preparation for leadership for the kind of leaders we need today. We need people who have dared to face the betrayal of life's promise. Wuch, chosen to feel that cut to their soul and allowed themselves to be changed by it without getting lost forever to bitterness, anger, regret, resentment or grief. They've chosen to meet the world from a self that's now more vulnerable and humble with a heart that's tender and filled with greater dignity and respect for themselves and

others and open and willing to encounter life in its fullness. They have newfound boundaries that come from knowing themselves like never before. But they're also sensitive, alive and responsive. They know an unashamed. love what they're good at. They recognize their limits and know they have blind spots. They're connected to meaning and purpose and feel sufficiently liberated to live and share their unique gifts or talents. They come with the capacity to hold the tension of ambiguity and uncertainty as a means to open the way for new possibilities, new ideas and responses to

the challenges we face. And I got so excited, especially reading that last line, because we are facing so much uncertainty, especially in this coming decade, so much tension to hold, so much ambiguity, and to know that menopause is in service to creating leaders who can show us how to be with the uncertainty that we're facing.

But fuck yes is what happens in my body when I read that. Yes. So can we, can we break it down? I've got lots of questions. Fire away, Sophie. We'll try. Let's see. Let's see. You've lived this, Alexandra. You've got the goods. You've got no excuses, Alexander. You've kicked off the training wheels.

So this piece, we need people who have dared to face the betrayal of life's promise. and chosen to feel that cut to their soul. Like the words that came to me when I read that is, this is no joke, people. Like, this is the initiation of all initiations, maybe apart from death, which is coming for all of us. But this is real. And I wondered if we could kick off with you saying a word or two

for people who are in this moment, this betrayal moment at the start, where they're feeling. something cut to their soul, a word for those who are inside it right now. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Although the work of menopause is a work ultimately you have to do on your own, the centerpiece of the initiation, no one can do for you.

At this point, if you are deep in that moment of feeling that cut to your soul, please find allies. Please have someone with you that reminds you that you're okay, that you actually have achieved things, you have done things. I mean, I had friends, because I sort of forgot everything. I had friends that reminded me.

But to have allies. And I think, and I am actually going to promote our book, Weiss power here, lean into that, book, when we set a fierce intention with that book that the book would hold you through menopause. And at this point, you don't want to be, you're already being exposed to the inner elements of you. And you don't want to be kind of totally isolated, like completely exposed to

the elements of your outer life. So allies and just really leaning into the reading and rereading and rereading wise power. And just taking quiet time with yourself to just be still with it. There is actually nothing to be done at this point except to just lovingly tend to yourself, to be very sweet and very kind to yourself. And giving yourself space and giving yourself slack.

You have full permission to give yourself slack now. What really has struck me, you know, we're talking about menopause as preparing us for the kind of leadership we need for these times. And that quote began with the phrase that menopause is quite a training ground in power. Alexandra, I'm curious what you would say to how this daring to face the betrayal of life's promise, daring to feel. that cut to one soul is part of this training ground because it doesn't sound good, you know. No. Menopause, so I'm going to just really go slowly. I'm feeling this very, very deeply right now.

It's very meaningful to me. Menopause has a mission to deliver you home to yourself, not a performance. of yourself, not trying to be there for everybody else. And it is to deeply come home to who you truly are. And you know, you're on a training ground all through your menstruating years to discover yourself. It's not like you're coming into menopause, completely unknowing of yourself. But there's a level of knowing you haven't had access to.

It's just the nature of things. And menopause is going to give you this access. And you've got to be prepared for a lot of. it because the menopause gives you this access by really undoing you, for one of a better word, just, you know, stripping away these identities so that you are really naked to yourself. You're exposed to your shadow like you've never been before. And you can hear how it's so important to be psychologically, to have some kind of psychological preparedness for that because this is the initiation this is the test moment to actually to dare to

stay present with the shadow side of yourself ultimately and all that hasn't happened that you you know you lived in a kind of illusion that these things would happen for you and yeah i certainly did um and just facing that stark that they haven't happened. And then if I'm in a negative space, I might spiral from there and go, oh, they're never going to happen. Actually, you know,

you've got a whole big chapter coming, but in this moment, you don't feel any of that. So this is the test. Here you are, your face slightly standing naked in fierce, bitter winds that are just kind of battering you. you know, it just you're in this storm. And you know, menopause is asking you to stand firm and to find ground you can stand on,

which is why I said take space, have allies. You need sweetness and affirmation around you. As you, as you, as you just meet your shadow side. and not in a sense not flinch well you know I'm flinching all over the place I'm thinking oh no oh no I've gone seriously what's it really it's so embarrassing or the shame or whatever I mean I went through all that but fundamentally well that what you're learning to do is not kill yourself off in the sense of let the critic come in and then just do an absolute bitter number on you which it will try to do it's it's all this is all going to be happening

But that somehow you hold the tension with it all. And it is that act of just staying with yourself. And also doing this work of nourishment and rest. Because if you're not resourced, this is bad news. No, you need to have some resourcing to meet this. And if you're not resourced, get double help. However you do it, don't be alone. So if you're resourced enough, that is, you know, sufficient.

energy, spaciousness and so on, to just be with this and just kind of see it through. What happens is you kind of bottom out. It's almost like, well, I can only describe it myself. You know, it's going to be unique for us all. But I do feel there's a theme here that we will all experience something archetypal, which is that it will bottom out. And I was thinking of like a sort of kind of humor comes in. I mean, you know, it's like, what else can you do?

You're finally discovering you're not perfect and you're freaking human. So you really get to see how human and flawed you are because, I mean, I had a degree of arrogance and I suspect we all do. I mean, no, it's just my ego is being punctured severely and I want to feel like I'm a something and I know how to do everything.

And it was profoundly humbling to see what a website. What a little shit you are, I'll say it. What a little shit I was. But to then, there's kind of a cosmic era that comes in. It's like, oh my God, I'm just human. I'm human, I'm human, I'm human. I'm flawed. It's the nature of being alive in this world.

And there's something that just opens up. It's like you stay with you stay. And then something breaks open, basically. Yeah. And then it's going to be unique how each of us experiences this. Okay? This is just a kind of archetypal description or something. And it does break open.

And at some point, you're going to have to go, you know what, Pope? Yeah. Yeah. You were a fuck wit or whatever, you know. You didn't do, yeah. But then you see the light really starts to come in. It's like you start to get yourself. And you are wildly permeable at this point.

And I am being pummeled by my calling. You know, I'm being pummeled by the creative forces. I mean, literally. So I'm having this darkness, but I'm being pummeled by the creative forces. And I mean, that is nourishing me. But it is that, and it's that moment of recognition of the light, you know, of myself coming in. So this is, if you have come through that

and you have come to a place where you can go, okay, yeah, so I'm human. And I didn't do those things well. But then you get to see what you are brilliant at. And so now you're being filled by something. And it was so good. It was so great to just feel, oh my God, this is who I am and this is what I'm brilliant at and I know what I'm here for I know what I'm built

for I've been gifted very particular talents and skills and even my apparent vulnerabilities my parent sort of weaknesses in other areas are a kind of ally in a way because in a way I don't get channeled down that path you know you know I stay with I'm kept in my lane if you'd like by my weaknesses at some level. It's so interesting. It's so interesting. So it's that weathering and you just come back to yourself.

So now in postmenopause life, so yes, I've stepped into something very big and made myself very public. And yes, we get lots of challenges in all sorts of different ways that can really cut, can really cut. and but there's they do cut and I do get taken out and then there's something in me that rallies that knows one the challenges there's always truth and value you know in any criticism

but it's not all true you know because that's how it comes and I will meet this and I also don't you know I find myself it's like you can hear me now I'm going okay be grown up here you know, you've chosen this. That's the thing. You come back to yourself and you remember, oh, yes, this is the work I do. I can't abandon it. And I can't abandon what I know. And I can't abandon myself.

Now that's the punchline of menopause, by the way. What I'm really, what's really hitting me, Alexandra and everything you've said is how when we enter menopause and meet this dark night of. of the soul and dare to face this betrayal. Firstly, it was very powerful how you spoke about in that darkness, in that shadow, how we get pummeled by the creative forces. So I really heard this blasting open that is happening in that moment. And then the inevitable human reaction to what we're seeing and the shock of that,

the rage of that, the bitterness, the anger, the resentment, the, you know, all of that fallout that happens inevitably when we are facing ourselves at such a deep level. And what you've described there, and you spoke about humour, that was your elixir. And we all have different ways of surrendering of kind of going, oh, yeah, okay. And I love that. the humor is such a great way of doing that. But in that experience, we don't let life's betrayal become a betrayal of ourselves. And that is what has really hit me about the leadership skill you have postmenopause.

Suddenly, whatever challenge you personally or we collectively are facing, we are no longer victims of that betrayal of that, fall out, we are suddenly really on our own side and feel the power we do have, feel the gifts we do have, the contribution we do have. So that is, I mean, that's really hit me because I think most people, you know, particularly those who don't have this wise power who haven't been through menopause or been initiated by life in some other way, yeah, get taken down by the betrayal. get stuck in bitterness, resentment, regret, cynicism, you know, closed-heartedness. And let's get into those because that is the next quote.

But before we do, I want to read a story that you share from Stephanie because it really highlights the importance of support. So this is in the book and she says, My betrayal phase has been going on for at least the past year. So this goes on for a while for many. it's been super messy chaotic heart wrenching and many times has brought me to my knees or my bed what has been most helpful is lots and lots of support i can't stress that enough get all the support you think you need and double it so calling in the favors at this point calling in the

community and i'm thinking actually i've got two of my best girlfriends are both in in the thick of this right now like and boy do we have bawdy laughter it's kind of like gallows humor. Yes. Like I belly laugh with them like I do with no one else because it's like the only thing we can do at certain points when I'm sitting with them and they're looking eye to eye with what they're facing. Yeah.

Okay. Support and humour. But let's get to this because the next part of the quote is to allow themselves to be changed by it without getting lost forever to bitterness, anger, regret, resentment or grief. What is it? that stops us from getting lost to this bitterness that could take us in this eye of the storm. Not that I have storm, just in the midst of the storm.

It's a really good question. I don't know if I'm just going to feel into the answer afresh, really. What stops us from going down that path? Well, what stops me from going down that path is because it's a death path. it's like going up a side dead end with your life. And you've got years of living ahead. And it's just not an option in my mind to go there. And by the way, those energies caught you.

They're in the field. They're in the field. They're everywhere. And you have to be really awake to that. and not let them in. But I know they would destroy my soul. And I, you know, it's interesting enough getting older. But you don't want to get older with a destroyed soul, let me tell you.

I tell you the one thing that really serves me now at 70 is feeling the meaning of my life. and therefore that I have in a way, you know, it allows me to feel part of society still, like that I am contributing, I'm serving, that I'm needed and that I have a role to play. And I'm going to do that until the day I can't get. I was thinking about dying this morning. I was hoping it would happen just, you know, I'd be powering away. at 90 or something and then just like just go in my sleep sort of warning maybe I'm sitting there is interesting the thoughts what I'm holding that vision with you too yeah yeah just quite you've got

plenty more to do pope yeah I've got plenty more to do before I get it's a lot better than the mafia coming and taking your art which is you know one of your regular dreams I know it is one of my regular dreams the mafia coming to take me out I don't know that does not happen I think you've been a fairly good girl. I don't think the mafia are coming forward. I don't think they'll come after me. I don't know. If you've got some secrets that I don't know about.

Yes, now I've completely, oh yes, the death path of cynicism. Although Sharnie is about to speak too. Yeah, you go, Sharnie. Well, actually, I'm sort of following that thread of the death path, which is that all of those states we described there that we want to avoid getting stuck in. behind them all is judgment, is criticism, either of ourselves or of another or of our life or of our parents or of the world. And really what helps us to not get stuck is to really face that critical energy in ourselves.

That's an enormous power that we need to be on side with when it comes to leadership. Our critical faculty, our critical energy is, gosh, it's a force to be. be reckoned with and we need we need to be conscious of it and know how to wield it wisely. So I think a big part of what we're negotiating there at menopause is a bit of a face off with that critical energy. And that is really at its heart a question of are you choosing life or are you choosing death? Are you choosing to go with the kind of hopelessness or are you daring to sanctify it, you know, are you daring to choose a loving way of seeing yourself, others, life, the world? It's really about like an opening to love and an undefendedness.

Because all of that judgment is part of how we armor ourselves, you know, it's hard to admit, but that is how we protect ourselves. It is. is with this point. Yeah. And I was just really thinking about that very strongly this morning when I was exercising. I was thinking about, oh yeah, as you get older,

you become more and more vulnerable, just because you don't have the physical chi in the way you had that. That physical chi of youth just gives you so much buffering and armoring, and that's all sort of, you know, fading away. And I thought to myself, yeah, that's how cynicism, bitterness take over. because that becomes a protective, it's like an incrustation around you.

It becomes a defendedness, a protection. The defendedness becomes a protection. I think that's very good what you've just spoken, Shani. It is a way of protecting myself from my own critic, but protecting myself from, well, criticism from the world, but just, you know, the condition of the world. It's a very fine line. walking that because also I need some protection but that's that's like mafia protection isn't it

back to the mafia wow they're really well you know it's not it's not like wholesome protection yeah yeah it's not wholesome protection it's like take your kneecaps off it's a take your knee cap shot protection I'm going to pause our chat for a moment to share such an exciting invitation with you I've been waiting to share this for months. So when Alexander and Sharnie wrote their book, Wise Power, what they really wanted to do was to ignite the menopause revolution, starting with transforming the cultural narrative around menopause. And often what helps the most when we're changing stories like this is actually hearing stories from people who are inside it, who are navigating menopause as a spiritual awakening and awakening to power. And I've been saying,

lucky to sit with a group of incredible, wise, insightful teachers and guides over the last weeks, asking them to share with me the spiritual insights that menopause awakened in them. And we're going to be sharing these conversations from October the 12th as part of our series The Spiritual Power of Menopause. And you can register for that. It's free at redschool.net forward slash spiritual dash menopause. That's red school.net forward slash spiritual dash menopause. And if you'd like to contribute to this movement to rewrite the story of menopause, please, please invite your friends to this free event. The main way that this work reaches new people is by one person telling one other person. So thank you so much for your support. And again, you can register for free

at redschool.net forward slash spiritual dash menopause. Can I feel my way into something here? Because obviously I'm not in this territory and I want to be careful that I'm not in any way trying to speak for menopause because I've not been through it yet. But when I look at that list, I tease out the difference between anger and grief

and then bitterness, regret and resentment. And I'm thinking of my darkest nights of the soul. And you mentioned, this earlier, Sharnie, that life initiates this in many ways. And for me, like chronic illness and then infertility really took me that they were my bottoming out moments so far. And when I was, it makes me want to cry to feel it, but when I was able to be with the grief of what was happening, you know, and when I was able to feel how angry I was.

And actually let myself feel that, then the bitterness and the resentment and the regret couldn't really get in in the same way. But it really fucking hurts to feel that much grief. You know, and I'm imagining for those in menopause that are feeling the grief of what hasn't happened or feeling all the different kinds of betrayal around relationship or career or whatever it is, there's a lot of grief to feel and a lot of rage and a lot of rage at the and where we're at and, oh. So is there something here around letting that raging grief raw that helps to protect us from hardening and armoring up into the bitterness and the resentment.

Totally. You know, I spoke about the need for surrender when we meet that dark night of the soul and Alexandra spoke about humour. Surrender is also surrender to how we feel and really letting ourselves feel that and allow that through our being absolutely that is all part of the letting go and the deepening into ourselves absolutely and we talk about how you know there comes a point where that anger and grief no longer burns clean you know it's very easy to get stuck in the story of something and to recite again and again

and keep stirring up the feeling, stirring up the feeling, generating the anger, generating the grief beyond the, beyond the time of it, actually, because it does come to a natural completion, but we keep bugging ourselves. So it's interesting to find that line of, you know, when have, when are we surrendering to what we're feeling and when are we perpetuating our own suffering? Yeah, that is a big question. That is big. Yeah. Woo. Undefended, that word, you use that a lot, Alexandra. And that feels like an important part of this leadership path that you're describing here, undefended leadership in some way. And there's a quote from Laura in the book that speaks to this. She says, we don't have to harden ourselves to be powerful women. We don't have to be so fuck off with life. We're saying fuck a lot. I hope it's okay.

There are littles around or something. Fuck! And she says we have to make love with life. Wow. Oh, yeah. It's beautiful. Okay. We've already spoken about this a bit of vulnerability,

but this is the next part of the quote. So you're saying, we need people who have chosen to meet the world from a space that's now more vulnerable and humble, with a heart that's tender and filled with great dignity and respect for themselves and others and open and willing to encounter life in its fullness. And what strikes me in that sentence is this willingness to encounter life, because

it sounds like a soft thing, oh, I'm willing to encounter life, but it's really strong. That willingness to encounter what life throws at us is massive. It is. I mean, especially if you've chosen to take on some kind of leadership role. You are putting yourself out there. And you are, you know, you're sort of automatically, you know, draw challenge to you as well. But it is, it is, this encountering with life is actually about seeing life as a co-creature. partner in whatever it is I'm wanting to do. So it isn't just about my will anymore.

I mean, my will is very, very important. And, you know, personal wills never go away. But it is about, I want to say, thy will, you know, encountering a greater will to recognize that there are bigger forces at work than just little old me. But little little me also has enormous creative capacity if I know how to meet what happens as a creative process. Now, it sounds on paper very good. But of course, you have to remember, I'm human.

And I'm human. And being human means I come with a degree of defendedness, much as I love being undefended. It's just, you know, it's a default that I have to, you know, dance around. And, you know, my ego has recovered a little after men and it's important. You've got to have a healthy ego. So that's in play. And I have a very clear vision of things and blah, blah. So it's very important to have a really strong sense of one's own self.

and what you want and where you want to go, that's actually a prerequisite, I would say, for encountering life. So then, but it's also can make you get pissed off with life and want to control it and get angry with it and all that. And you have to just go through all that. But the baseline for me is it's all meaningful. So especially when we get big challenges or bring criticisms, You know, I'll go through that whole rigmarole I'm just described to

and soup and all the rest of it. And then it is to really hold that bigger picture and to really meet it. So that really cries me to stabilise in myself first and find my own ground and to remind myself of all the good stuff I do. And then I go out to meet that challenge and to work with that challenge. as like the grit and the oyster shell. And this way, this is, I think this is how we evolve the future, is through this encounter.

Because what happens is I get stretched out of my world or my world gets challenged and exercised. And it may strengthen what I hold actually, but also it will expand it and change it. But in that co-creative process, process, something new emerges. It's extraordinary how that happens, isn't it, Shani? I mean, we see it played out over and over again where we're in a creative process and we meet insurmountable obstacles in the creative process. You know, it's like, broadly speaking, in the first half

of our life, or the first half of our menstruating years, it's like we're horses with blinkers on and that power of agency and the development of our own. agenda and desire and will is, you know, really the dominant energy. And then what the second half of our menstruating years does, I mean, it starts in the autumn of our menstruating years, you know, in the quickening and the lead up to menopause, you start getting a little workout in this, like the blinkers are slowly coming off and you are being humbled and challenged in a way that really invites you to pause and surrender and kind of consider things from. from different perspectives and hold more complexity.

Because in the first half, you know, there's a kind of simplicity to your worldview and your sense of yourself and so on. And what's amazing about this second half of the menstruating years and then, of course, menopause as being the ultimate training ground in this, is that the blinkers really do come off. And that means all the blind spots that we all naturally have get sort of activated in our relationship

and in our work life and in the world. And this capacity to encounter, which has everything to do with our ability to surrender, to at least momentarily drop our own view and our own will and our own plan and surrender and kind of just receive the feedback you're getting from life or the new perspective

the, it's wisdom territory is what we're talking about here. Because, you know, the stuff that's in our unconscious or in our blind spots is what keeps us a little less wise, shall we say. So what Metaport is doing is kind of helping us to wise up to a broader perspective, to multiple views and to complexity. And that's, that's an extremely. You know, we often talk about menopause as being this expansion of awareness, and that's what's happening when you learn to meet life on life's terms,

is you're ongoingly growing in this wider perspective. What an incredible gift to have as a leader. Yes. Not just be thinking for yourself and for what you think is best, but to be really taking the larger view. Yes. Yeah, one way I'm seeing that playing out is there's a lot of Eurocentricity in our culture and how much wisdom there is in indigenous cultures and just cultures from all over the globe.

And this is part of how the quickening is working me is uncolonizing my mind out of this Eurocentricity. And it's very messy and confusing because it's the water I'm swimming in as a white European woman. And yeah, anyway, it looks different for all of us, but that's one of the ways. And I think there's a more and more recognition of indigenous wisdom from the indigenous earthkeepers is one of the, that is needed to, we need to bring that to the forefront of all areas of leadership in life. And that's, yeah, that's one way that the complexity can be opening up for people. You know, what, as I'm listening to both, the thing underlying this for me is one of the things we mention in that question. there's that capacity to stay with tension and ambiguity and uncertainty and the unknown. And so when you're encountering challenge, instead of going into reaction,

is to be able to hold the tension of that. This is the actual key ingredient that allows you to stay with the phenomena, with this idea of working in a kind of co-creative way. you've got to get through the discomfort phase. And that can go on and on for a long time. And it is such a daring to dare to just stay with that and not judge it or to stay with complexity and ambiguity without rushing to solution.

Actually, that is to really say, just to let that be, to let there be complexity in the field, to let there be unclear solutions and to just stay with it as an act of trust. It's not even sometimes that that's a lot of hard work, actually, fully enough. I mean, there are times when you're really holding tension, but just hang out almost with curiosity with all these different positions and to just let them be without having opinions one way or another.

and then something I think can really arise out of that. But it needs us all really to come to that, to be able to come to that way of working a bit or to have a lot more of us to come to that way of working. It's, I think, very hard on your own to be able to do that. I would find it hard because I have to admit, I'm very, very human and I'm actually incredibly vulnerable and I can be easily wounded and I have to really be fierce about taking care of myself. You're a very sensitive human.

Yes, I am probably enough. Like me. I name it because I am it. Yeah, I'm hopelessly sensitive, really. Wonderfully sensitive. This inner skill of holding the tension is so. to the menopause initiation and how we grow these wise powers. And I'm very struck by what you said, Alexandra, about how this is so much more needed

in our communities and in our culture, this inner skill. This is, of course, one of the menstruality leadership skills that we teach. And, well, we name it, we teach it. In fact, it's a skill that you grow through your menstruating years, through practicing cycle awareness. And then, of course, menopause is a real training ground for this inner skill, this dark art. And it's profound to have this capacity to hold attention because talking about creativity, this is where creativity is born from. It's in our capacity to be with the unknown and hold the ambiguity.

And then woof, something comes towards us. It's like a way of making space for something to emerge. And that the leadership we need in the future requires something utterly original, I believe. You know, the solutions are not, I don't think, going to come from the past. They're coming from the future. And this is how we make space for the future to speak to us and for something to evolve, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I ask a gritty question?

Yeah. Because I'm thinking of those in our community who are on working within teams or on boards or with groups of people who are not embracing uncertainty and holding the tension as leadership skills yet. And like the double level of leadership that's needed to first hold the tension, be with the unknown, and then to find a way to lead around people who are grappling for certainty

or who are setting up conditions for certainty, which doesn't exist. What would you say to those listening that are like, this sounds really nice, but I don't have a clue how I would bring this to work right now or how I would bring this to my community right now? And it's not like I have an answer either. This is, it is a work of the heart. It's a work of maturity. And the very fact that if you're someone listening to this

and thinking about this, it's like, I want to say you're halfway there, that you're bothering to listen to this and you're actually asking that question. And it's enough to ask the question and to sit with the question. That's the first step. Wow. Not to see it as a kind of important. possible because it does look impossible and bad. But you know, you've got to have a bit of full hardiness, folks.

Let me tell you. At least in your own imagination, whilst being very cany. All right. Full hardiness in your imagination and then really caniness all the way. But to just go, wow, what would that mean in this situation? It's like bringing some wonder almost to it. And because truly, I do not sit in boardrooms. But all I know is, unless you're sitting with psychopaths, there are a bunch of humans in there.

And there'll be human stuff going on. And if, you know, if there are a bunch of humans there, there'll be little chinks somewhere. And I think it begins with just some kind of more personal contact, actually, because I think those. boardrooms exist at a very impersonal level. It's very kind of, you know, from the head. This is my understanding. And you've got to just pace all that, but just to keep remembering, and there is a human there, and to hold, and this is what I love,

I just love this skill, this, we call it one of our dark arts, intention. I would just set a totally bold wild intention, wild intention to find, to find, the tiny opening. You only need the smallest move. Yeah, I love everything you've said, Alexandra, particularly bringing curiosity and wonder and beginning to imagine what a world might be like in which the people we're engaging with have the skill and capacity to hold the tension on complexity so that things can unfold and emerge. I want to offer a little practical thing,

which I think could be applied to a couple of different situations. It's our ego that wants certainty. And so making small shifts and small moves really helps us to pace our nervous system, the nervous systems of those in the room and so on. So that's something important to bear in mind. When there's complexity and uncertainty, people's nervous systems get activated. So small shifts can really help people to stay soothed, connected, etc.

As you begin to bring in the space needed for the uncertainty and the unknown. So giving people a container of time is really helpful. It provides that certainty. For example, for the next hour, we're all going to suspend, trying to find solutions or argue our own side or try and fix the situation for the next hour, we're going to all just hang out with wonder, curiosity, not knowing, experimenting with seeing this from different perspectives and there's no agenda, no aim here. We're not trying to get anywhere.

We're just going to hang out with this for the next hour. And that provides enough certainty and enough of an opening for a new experiment to happen, An experiment, that's a great word. Yeah. So good, Shani. Yeah. Very good. Since we were entered, entered this through the lens of vulnerability in this part of the

quote, there was a piece that you mentioned about vulnerability and trauma in the book that feels important to bring in, which is if you're holding a lot of trauma in your system, the increasing vulnerability of menopause means that trauma can be amplified, holding the tension may feel too much. And this is when you must seek out appropriate therapeutic support or run the risk of becoming retramatized. And, you know, we have this conversation series coming up. We're entering the month of menopause now.

And in one of the conversations with Elaine, this was a big part of her menopause process, a re-traumatization. And it's fascinating how she speaks about it and what she learned about the fall away of estrogen and how it sheeds our nerves and different aspects of our nervous system and that actually allows old trauma to resurface again. But yeah, the importance of therapeutic support when there's trauma present here too.

That's crucial. I also want to reference the podcast series that we did about menstruality and trauma for anyone who wants to go deeper into that. Yeah. Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes, which they're always at bed school.net forward slash podcast. and you just look up this podcast and then at the bottom of the page there's links in the show notes

so I'll link to those episodes. Yeah. Yeah, so I thought this might happen that we wouldn't be able to get through this entire quote because it's meaty and there's so much in it. And you have actually spoken about the different aspects of the quote, like how in menopause we get to know ourselves like never before. We develop this sensitivity and aliveness and responsiveness as a leadership skill.

we know what we're good at, we know our blind spots, we recognize our limits. There's this quote that you pointed out to me this morning from the book, from Karina, that sort of points to this knowing yourself. She says, I'm a grounded bitch. I'm a grounded bitch. I know where I stand and I know what I want. That's someone who's been worked with. menopause amazing. Yeah. And yeah, I feel to close with this beautiful quote from Sue,

whose 69s are on the other side of menopause. And she says, when I willingly grasped the menopause with both hands, it led me into the heart of who I was. And the fear of aging and death faded away. I realize that this is my time to step forwards as a powerful woman, not through force or will, but with a quiet confidence that isn't afraid of stillness or silence. This is the moment when I take my place in the world, as a wise woman who knows about pain, loss and repair and can throw back my head and laugh out loud at the absurdity of the human condition

and at the same time fall down on my knees to honour the life I've had. I mean, really, that is profound, that quote. It just says everything. been trying to say in the podcast, I think. I would love the world to be led and guided by people who are embodying that, what Sue is bringing there. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Very much so. Very much so. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. So any closing words from you to round out this conversation about how menopause is making us into the leaders that these times need?

I think what can happen is you've got all these individuals who've been awoken to something in themselves. And now each of us then becomes a channel for new possibilities in the world. It's like you're bringing on stream a whole new level of possibility and power to serve the world that's being wasted in a way because we're not taken seriously. and we're not taking ourselves seriously. And the skills that we bring, I think, can open up new ideas, new ways of doing things. Not because we know what they are. I don't know what they are, but I do know that stuff comes. It's like a magic at work.

It's like opening up this Pandora's box of wonderful possibilities now. It's a resource. It's an extraordinary resource that can prefer. profoundly serve. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you'd like to join the Spiritual Power of Menopause conversation series, that's starting on October the 12th, you can register for free at Red School.net forward slash spiritual dash menopause.

And please invite your friends. One way to do that is to share this podcast with them. And we really, really appreciate your support. Okay, I'll be with you again in a couple of weeks. And until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.