The Menstruality Podcast - 90. How to Help Girls Navigate the Menarche Rite of Passage (Kim McCabe)

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

Kim McCabe, the founder of Rites for Girls says that without puberty rites of passage, young people self-initiate. The media tells them how they should be and our youngsters create their own ways of proving their adulthood through feats, dares, and adventures. They try to appear like adults in what they do and how they look: using clothes, make-up, drink, cigarettes, cars, and sex.According to Kim, we grown-ups can take back the role of initiating our children into adulthood, and “the children welcome it, we are fulfilled by it, and a transition that has become defined by its difficulty can become a joyous one.”In our conversation today we explore how to take back the role of initiating our girls and young people into their menstruating lives.We explore:How to begin speaking about menstruation, move through shame and support girls to have healthy relationships with their bodies.The importance of asking “what makes your heart sing?” and “what brings you joy?” to our girls, especially between age 10-12, so these threads are tended and their unique essence awakens. The profound impact of happens when you have regular “mother-daughter dates”…---Receive our free video training: Love Your Cycle, Discover the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness to Revolutionise Your Life - www.redschool.net/love---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolKim McCabe - Rites for Girls - https://www.instagram.com/ritesforgirls

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, how's it going? Welcome back to the Menstruality Podcast today. My guest today, Kim McCabe, is the founder of Rights for Girls and she says that without puberty rites of passage, young people self-initiate. The media tells them how they should be and our youngsters

create their own ways of proving their adulthood through feats and dares and adventures. And according to Kim, we grown-ups can take back the role of initiating our children into adulthood and this is a quote from her, and the children welcome it with we are fulfilled by it and a transition that has become defined by its difficulty can become a joyous one. I got so fired up by this conversation today where we explore how to take back the role of initiating our girls and young ones into their menstruating lives. I hope you enjoy it. So it's wonderful to have you here on the Menstruality Podcast, Kim. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for making the time. It's my pleasure. I've been hearing stories from Sharni all week about her experiences with her daughter and and you and your work and it's been so moving to hear the impact that it's having for Shani and her daughter but the impact that it's

having for so many so I really can't wait to get stuck into I have so many questions for you but before we go there I'd love to hear yeah where you're at in your menstruality arc of your life and how that's showing up for you today. A wonderful question. I had my last bleed in August of 2015. So I'm well into menopause and yet I still feel quite new at it. I really missed my bleed when it left. But I have to say, I'm really enjoying what menopause is bringing to me. Not always easy, but hugely beneficial, not only to me in my life, but actually my work. Well, I mean, we could have a whole conversation about that. So I, but I am curious, I'd just love

to hear a kind of headline or two about what menopause is, is revealing for you. Um, so the challenging parts initially were that, um, I children and three living children. And our youngest was still very much in need of my mothering. But what I found with menopause came a sort of sense of, I'm kind of done with this. I want to get busy with me now and what I want to do. So there was a bit of kind of awkwardness with that in that I still am their mother and needed to be kind of providing meals. And although I did, I burnt the bottom off every single one of our saucepans. So I've now been banned from the kitchen, which is a great delight for me. And I just found myself becoming much more outwardly focused on not just on me, but more what me and what I could bring to the world and an enormous burst of energy for that. Well, speaking of that, it is enormous what you're doing doing the work that you're doing with rights for girls

and I'd love to hear about where it came from you know where it was birthed you were featured in the Sunday Times sort of around about this time last year and um I just wanted to read a quote from the journalist who who wrote this article because I think it speaks volumes so she says this is Fleur Britton when I first met parenting expert Kim McCabe I was so struck by her passion her clarity her vision her ambition all focused purely on helping young girls navigate a smoother ride into adulthood I vowed I would quit journalism if I couldn't get her story placed. So I'd love to hear, you know, this immense passion, what woke it up for you? Or when did you first become aware of it?

Oh, gosh. Do you know what? Every time I try to answer that question, I find myself going back in time. So I used to say, it was when I birthed our third child, a girl, and I kind of remember looking down at her in my arms and suddenly getting this overwhelming feeling of I have to change the world for her. I do not want her growing up in the world that I grew up in. But actually, then I go back to kind of my own teen, my preteen and teen years, and they weren't easy. And I think I would say I'd have to say I spent the best part of my 20s and 30s recovering from what happened in those years. And then later on in life, when I was working with women returners to work, and actually working in businesses and top business people and just saw

that a lot of the things that were inhibiting them to do their best work were things that took root in their teen years, in their adolescence. So I did go to Cambridge University and study child psychology and psychology in women's studies. That gave me a fire in my belly when I started to really research some of the damage that is done to us as girls and as women. But then, you know, my mum was one of the first feminists and my grandmother was an extraordinary woman who, of her time, made some extraordinary choices. So then I have to kind of go back to the women who came before me and say it probably began there because of what they passed on to me. Wow, it's wonderful to feel their presence in this conversation. That's beautiful. On your website, you also spoke about your work as a counsellor with distressed teenagers when you were in your 20s, I think.

And you said that you saw girls harming themselves physically and mentally and you promised yourself you would find a way to equip them so that they wouldn't endanger themselves. And you said that that's developed into the work that you do today would you be able to describe the work that you do today and why you think it's having the impact that it's having so I always seek to work preventatively rather than to wait until there are problems to um strengthen girls and young women to know how to deal with the problems. I can't make life easy. No parent can, although we all want to. It actually wouldn't really serve our children if they never encountered any challenges and difficulties. know each generation looks looks at the at the future generation and kind of thinks oh gosh it's even harder for them and I would say the same you know I do think that

the challenges that young girls and young women have now are even greater than the ones that I had as a as a as a young woman of course social media is is a part of that but it's not just that um so as I thought about working preventatively I did start my life working as a counsellor for teenagers and um it just struck me how um how did we how did we let this happen how did how could this be possible that we could be failing our young people so much? And whilst I could see I was helping, seeing and listening to these boys and girls once a week, I thought, what could I do that would mean that they didn't end up here? Because whose responsibility is it if it's not mine? It's all of our adults. It's our responsibility to do whatever we can to help our young, our next generation grow up and to become all that they could possibly be.

And I realized if I was going to work preventatively, I'd have to start young and I would have to work with the with the parents as well so that's why our work generally starts when girls are are in year six or year seven so they're 10 or 11 years old so that they're just entering into puberty most of them a time of really really rapid change and they're also also beginning to think about making that transition between primary and secondary school, which is again, a really big change. So it's wanting to start our relationship with the girls then when it's a really new phase in their life, and there's lots of things they need to know. And so I created this program. It's a year long program initially where we meet monthly for a year. So they get to feel what monthly feels like.

And each month is different. And we ask them to them the things that they need to know at this stage of this life, their lives. So some of it's really practical, like what do the letters and numbers on a bra mean? And what do you do about spots and greasy hair? And how do you catch the blood? And then other things are more about some of the other changes that are going on. So we learn about, you know, what are the physical changes that are happening and Because, of course, during puberty, the brain changes. The teen brain is different. So all teenagers, boys and girls, feel their feelings more intensely than they did as children or indeed as we do as adults. And they just don't have the tools to be able to manage that intensity. So it's also giving them some tools and some ideas. But as much as

anything else, they get this wonderful feeling of me too, when they hear each other talk and their struggles, it's suddenly, I can't manage a sleepover anymore now, or I could start crying for no reason, or I suddenly hate my dad. And I, you know, and they realize that there's nothing wrong with them, that it's completely normal. But also they help each other. They give each other suggestions for how to, how to deal with that. I'll, I'll never forget one girl who said, I climb into the airing cupboard and I get, I get my cat and my book and I climb into the airing cupboard and I pull it shut. Nobody knows where I am'm warm and safe and um and it just helps me with my feelings to settle well the next month three other girls had tried the exact same thing kind of went yeah works it's also great for the girls to realize that they have a lot of the resources

that they need inside themselves and often they recognize it when they're actually looking to help each other. They share their hopes and dreams for the future. We create an atmosphere for them where they don't have to change anything about themselves to fit in. They belong exactly as they are. And I think a lot of girls at that age don't have that experience anywhere else in their lives. So they get that opportunity to kind of really explore, well, who am I? And what do I,

what do I really want? Not only just for the future, but right now, independent of what my parents might want for me or my school or my teachers or even my peers. So we try to create a culture or a place for them to not only accept themselves, but accept each other. I remember one girl coming up to me at the end of the year, she crossed her arms and she sort of scowled at me and she said, I like girls I never thought I'd like. And I kind of said, and how is that? And she went, it's all right all right now this was a girl who was autistic and who had real real struggle with connecting with girls particularly autism is often quite undiagnosed in in in young girls and it often comes out in in relationship issues and problems at this age so to provide a

space where not only those girls feel accepted but but they also get a bit of feedback, some honest feedback about sometimes where their behavior is misunderstood or people don't quite understand what they mean. Do you know what? I'm going to pause because I could actually talk. No, no, no, no. There's one more thing I have to tell you that's really important. While the girls are meeting, the mothers meet at the same time. So we have this sense of a mother's circle gathering around us the girls love to know that their mothers have set aside three hours as well

once a month to think about them and to think about what they might need in the stage that they're in um but also the girls get this sense of oh and my mum's getting support too so a lot of girls who feel naturally will feel responsible for their parents well-being that's a that's a survival thing love to know that their mum has got this covered people have got her back and what we do in the mother's circle is I give the mothers a couple of questions to ponder that dovetail with what we're doing in the girls group that session so whilst many of the girls won't come out and straight away talk about what they've done, mum will have been walking in a similar territory.

And if it's not a mother, then it's a mother figure, a grandmother or carer or someone who takes that role in that girl's life. And she will have spent time thinking about not only how that relates to her daughter, but how it was for her too as a young girl and how she'd like it to be for her daughter. And of course, the mothers then also get the support from one another in a way that we do when our children are young, because wherever we go, we have to stay and we sit around while they're playing the soft play or they do whatever they're doing. And informally, parents then chat and support each other once you get into the kind of pre-teen and teen years but many parents don't have that kind of natural support and yet it's at a time when our children are asking a great deal more of us as parents so to create a circle for the mothers to to support

one another in whatever's going on in their daughter's life is also a really essential part we're kind of bringing community back in a way that I think perhaps is harder to to find sometimes in our busy busy lives yes absolutely it's very moving to hear you speak because I'm my pre-teen experiences are being stirred up as you're talking and I'm also reflecting back on how you know how much support or lack of support my mum had in her life at that time and um it just feels like what you're doing is sort of prizing open a space where society hasn't really made one you know there's there's kind of a sense of fear around teenagers and like parents don't know what to do and don't know what to say and and it's a it's an uncomfortable time of transition for both the young people and the parents isn't it the children and the parents

and I really don't want parents to dread the teen years I think teens get such a bad rap and partly it's because we know what we were like as teenagers but also you know we read scary stuff in the press and and we're right to be scared actually one in four 14 year old girls is self harming and one in four is also clinically depressed that's a hundred thousand girls in the UK and it's not just in England we need to do something about that. And of course, if we as parents didn't have a good experience of being a teenager ourselves, how can we possibly automatically know what our children need? It's why I wrote my book, actually, From Daughter to Woman, because I didn't want parents to dread the teen years. I want us to feel well supported and well equipped and ready to feel confident because actually parents are such an important guide at this stage in life and right the way through the teens.

And I think this is when a lot of parents start to feel quite disempowered and step out a bit and actually hand over to the teachers and the peer group and all the other social media, all the other influences that are coming into our children's lives more powerfully at that time. And yet, we are still the most important influence. And when we feel a bit more confident and comfortable about that, then we can do our very best parenting through the teen years. Wow, that's very hopeful to hear. That's beautiful. You mentioned those statistics then, which are really hard to hear. And it's hard to know that that's the case. And there was a different statistic in the article about you,teens and teens. And it said there's 134% rise in children who were referred for mental health care between April and June 2021, 200,000 cases. And I think that's in Britain, but it seems to be similar across many different

countries. Have you seen this in the girls that you're working with that particularly in these last two to three years, it's been a lot harder for them oh my goodness yes and it it breaks my heart I think there's a pandemic of anxiety and mental distress in all of our children girls and boys but but girls more than boys I would say I'm seeing it younger and younger the self-harm the self-hatred the eating disorders the depression the school refusing the anxiety the social reticence our children have been so deeply affected by what's going on and I you know our focus during those years was was very much on about how we could keep things going our focus now needs to switch to the next generation because they have been harmed and I the thing is is it's their response is quite

normal it's a normal stress response to feel increased anxiety and hypervigilance and and and you know that kind of obsessive OCD type behavior trying to make the world feel safe that's a natural normal response to what we've all just, trying to make the world feel safe. That's a natural, normal response to what we've all just been through. And yet the children feel as if there's something wrong with them. And sadly, we don't have the resources to really meet their needs. In fact, during the pandemic, I was so reluctant to go online. And in fact, we were very lucky because of the nature of our work. Even in lockdown, we were able to continue to meet monthly with the girls. We did have to adapt. We had to go into large, well-ventilated halls and they all sat

on little nests a meter apart. But we also developed a program called GirlsNet, which is an online program. And that's more of a kind of immediate response to what we were seeing in the girls. And that's got a wider reach. It's for girls anywhere between eight and 18. It's six weeks, once a week for an hour and a quarter. And it's really very much about resourcing the girls in the moment to be able to meet whatever challenges they may be experiencing. Now, those could be the kind of whatever challenges they may be experiencing now those could be the kind of global challenges it could be challenges within the family or challenges within themselves and we just kind of help them to recognize the resources they already have in

inside of themselves we give them some extra tools for for for coping um and and of course they get that camaraderie of of um of being together with a small group of same age girls online and it being online is actually makes it more accessible because for many girls they feel that sort of safety and privacy of being at home because what we're finding in our girls joining together groups that the in-person program is we I now find girls who can't come in in the room they stand at the doorway and listen from the doorway and and the self-harm and the and the and the anxiety that that I might hear in my girls when they get a bit into their mid-teens I'm now hearing it in the pre-teen girls. But it's understandable. There's nothing wrong with these children. What we need, though, is to meet this increased need

and to do that in a way that's sort of ordinary and everyday and fun. You know, that's the other thing is we do all kinds of different games and exercises. And it's not it's in the school environment is so um uncomfortable to learn about periods or or about relationships that it kind of they almost can't hear it they can't take it in whereas um doing it in girls joining together group um well we just have a laugh oh my gosh we have so much fun um and and um and it's easier for them to kind of also ask the questions that maybe maybe they can't even you know it's difficult to even ask their own parents because their own parents are a bit too close it's kind of easier to ask a mentor someone who they know loves and cares for them but who isn't actually part of their family and we'll also treat everything everything that we do in any of our groups is confidential.

What would you say to a mother, to a parent of a daughter or a young one that is experiencing significant anxiety at the moment? What would be some first steps to support them? That's a great question. I think, first of all, I would want to make sure that that mother, that parent had support for themselves. It's very anxiety inducing to have your child go through any difficulty and our own anxiety for them. Or we can also get triggered, it might remind us of things that happened to us in those at those age, that can get in the way of us being able to support them in the way that best suits them. So that would always be my starting point, you know, have other parents to talk to. You know you know whatever everyone's different in how they find support some people it's it's going online and reading other people it's listening to podcasts

other people it's talking to other parents or finding a professional someone who can kind of support them so that would be my starting point is is um start by kind of really strengthening your own position, feeling your feet on the floor, tuning into you to what you know, because you as the parent, you are the world expert on your child. You know them the best. You actually probably hold all the answers.

But when we feel anxious and our mind is kind of whirring around and we feel fearful and we can we can catastrophize and kind of take it to the end, you know, to what we most fear. That gets in the way of us kind of being able to just slow down, sit down and think, OK, what what does my what does my little girl or my little boy need from me now? And just to trust our instincts. And it might surprise you. what does my little girl or my little boy need from me now? And just to trust our instincts. And it might surprise you. It might be, you know, take them out of school for a week and go camping or stop off in the cafe for a hot chocolate and a game of dominoes. I mean, I'm just making stuff up here because every child is different

and every parent will have a sense and it will be a cocktail of things. And usually it will involve other adults. I think as well, parenting was never supposed to be done on our own or just to parents. It's about doing this in community, which is why the mother circle is so important. And to create, you know, we all hopefully have, you know, our own parents, possibly, even if we know that they messed up in many ways, and we're trying to pair differently, you know, they did get some stuff right. And they have the wisdom of age, and often can be whilst they love their grandchild deeply, they have a little bit of distance and a little bit of, of the wisdom that comes with age to kind of often they say that really annoying thing of, oh, it will pass.

Yeah, but, you know, it's we're suffering here now. But that is true. The bigger picture can sometimes help us to kind of think, well, actually, most people survive most things. So let me just kind of put to one side my greatest fears and think about right now, right now, how can I give this child a bit of respite from whatever is troubling them, as well as addressing those troubles directly. Schools are wonderful. Schools have been forced actually in the last few years to really increase their ability to be able to support children on the emotional and mental front as well as teaching them about the kings and queens

of england and what happens when the tectonic plates move um so you know it's really drawing on all the adults that we have in our community around us to help us help our child through a phase such fantastic advice kim thank you I'm in a different phase of parenting because my little guy is two and a half and the initiation we've just been through is potty training so but it's been the reason why I bring him in is because my main learning from parenthood so far has been the more regulated I am the more my nervous system is calm and soothed and the more I have the support I need the more I can show up in a calm way for him and then the more he can um what's the word entrain himself no the more he can sort of co-regulate with me

and find his way through his big emotions that he's got which are very different to the teen emotions but they're huge toddler emotions toddlers and teens have a lot in common actually ah so so what you're doing now is really um you'll be learning most of what you need to know for when you're when he becomes a teenager because it's a time of rapid change it's at a time when they have that ambivalence about no do it self don't go don't leave me you know and that's just the same as in the that's like a quote from this morning in my house and I love that you've brought up potty training because I actually use this as a great analogy for change both for ourselves personally but also when we're wanting to affect a change with our child is you know a know, a child doesn't go straight from using a nappy to hopping onto the toilet.

First of all, they have to become aware that they're going to the toilet, you know, that actually that they're doing a wee. And that's a new awareness. So before we can ever make a change, we have to be aware of what it is we want to change. And then there's that kind of uncomfortable phase when you kind of, you've done it already. You're too late to make the change. You've already wet the nappy or made a puddle on the floor. And then you've got that kind of one second warning. It's like, oh, I'm going to, and then you do it again.

Before you get to the point where you recognize that you're about to do the thing that you want to change, you've got enough time and space to think about, okay, no, I'm going to do it differently. I'm going to go over to the toilet. I haven't got dungarees on, so I can quickly get onto the toilet and do it there in the more grown up way, in the way that I now want to do it. And so I think all too often, I certainly do this. I put too much pressure on myself. I recognize I'm doing something not in the way I want to do it. And I think in an instant, in a heartbeat, I can then change that. I don't allow myself the time to essentially potty train myself into this new behavior,

this new habit. And the same with my children. I kind of feel something that's really, you know, irritating me about one of my children. And we've had a good conversation about how it would be so much better if they did their homework on time or didn't drop the wet towel to the floor or whatever it is. And then I expect them to make an instant change instead of letting them also have that process of integrating the changes that are needed to form a new habit. Zen and the art of potty training. That's fascinating. Thank you. I'm just going to pause the conversation with Kim for a moment to share that the early bird registration for our Your Cyclical Business course, which I teach, is ending this Saturday.

If you run a business or you have a dream of running a business one day, if you're self-employed, then this course will help you to work with menstrual cycle awareness, to move from overwhelm to sustainable creative flow from self-doubt to grounded confidence and from playing small to aligned expansion in your work so that you can live the calling that you're here to live you can find out more at yourcyclicalbusiness.com and I would absolutely love to have you with us. Okay, back to this brilliant conversation with Kim. I'd like to speak about menarche, especially since this is the menstruality podcast, but just before we do, you speak so powerfully about rites of passage there was a section from your website that I'd like to read without it young people self-initiate they try to appear like adults in what they do

and how they look using clothes makeup drinks cigarettes cars and sex we grown-ups can take back the role of initiating our children into adulthood fascinating Fascinating. Can you say more? I studied rites of passage when I was at university and, you know, we still mark most of the important transitions in our lives. So we welcome a new baby when they're born with some sort of naming ceremony. And we celebrate the union of two adults in the middle of life. And of course, we mark and celebrate the end of someone's life with some sort of funeral or wake. But the ceremony and rite of passage that used to be given the most time and attention, the coming of age or the puberty rite, is the one that we've most lost. I mean, some religions still have it. So we have the bar mitzvah and the bat mitzvah and we have confirmation and certain countries will you know the japan um brazil they

they still hold on to a sort of um some form of it uh even the american prom is kind of right of passage but where are the adults in that um so i started to study what are the key ingredients of a right of passage and in fact the whole of the last chapter of my book is a how-to guide to parents to how to create a rite of passage for their child. And it can be really small and simple and everyday. It needs to feel real and relatable to our modern children. So it's not about doing things how they were done before. It's about finding the right way for now. Actually, Girls Journeying Together group is many of the beginning activities of preparing for a rite of passage, because just the same way as you don't just rock up one day and get married, it's all the preparation of bringing these two families together

and all the challenges that you meet along the way, which is really about two families merging. That's the important work of a union. And then you celebrate, you invite everyone to come along and witness it and celebrate you. But that one day of the marriage ceremony is at the end, the culmination of really important preparation work. And that's what Girls Journeying Together is, is some of that preparation work for a puberty or a coming of age rite of passage. Because not only is it really important for that young person in terms of fully becoming as much as they possibly can in their young adult lives, but it also serves society.

This is why communities used to give it so much time and attention because it's for the health of the community. If our young people can grow up and take on the responsibilities that we ask of them to become our young people can grow up and take on the responsibilities that that we ask of them to become our next generation of of leaders and parents and you know the elders in waiting you hinted at this earlier on because you were saying that you help the girls that you work with to know who they are aside from their parents and to know what they want now and what they want for the future and this is you know in the red school way of seeing things this time

around the time of menarche is when our calling is first waking up so the work that you're doing is making some space for them to feel who am I like what is the essence of me and they I'm sure they won't have language for it yet or maybe they do but to feel it to know it to start that relationship and that if there's anything that could transform our world it's people getting intimate with that earlier in their lives so they could fulfill their potential in a more meaningful way? Absolutely. We ask them, what makes your heart sing? Or when do you lose yourself? You know, where are you? Or what are you doing? Or who are you with? Where it's almost like you don't even think about who you are or what you're doing because you're so lost in that moment. And then we talk about how at sort of 10, 11, 12 years old, they're now old enough to start to take responsibility for their own happiness.

When they're first born, you know, it's our job as the parents to care for our children, you know, not only physically, but that they are well in every sense. But now that they're 10 or 11 years old and they know the sorts of things that bring them joy, that make their heart sing, where they're just in the zone, they can communicate that to the adults in their lives to make sure that those aspects form a regular part of their lives. And actually we can't they can't assume that their parents know automatically and that actually there's a there's a process of negotiation and communication with parents that to ask them to help to make sure that those threads in in any child's lives are carried on through you know they might hate school but there's a certain element there's certain things in life we have to do so it's like

looking for how can I keep those threads going how can I make sure that the things that I really truly want to do and for the lucky children those things are school. But how can I make sure that I have many threads that I'm weaving into my life that incorporate and include the things that are really about me, me as a person? And to start to empower the girls to be able to work with their parents at making sure that that's an important part of their lives. I'm a bit speechless at the thought of this. From such a young age, being initiated and welcomed and guided and shown how to be in contact with our own joy, setting ourselves up for a very different kind of adulthood. Yes.

I think it would be great if we could speak about monarchy because surely it's one of the reasons why this time between 10 and 12 is so um pivotal developmentally is because of the hormonal shift that's happening in preparation for this period's beginning and well I was curious to ask you how your monarchy experience was how your first period experience was oh my goodness so I was very lucky I grew up with a mother who was very open and comfortable with her body and her cycle um so I saw her putting tampons in. And she spoke very openly with us about what to expect. So I felt very well prepared. But felt this incredible sense of, it wasn't, it was like it felt private. It felt like I wanted to protect it and keep it as mine. But sadly, despite even all

that she shared with me, there was a sense of shame about it. So bless my little self. I wrapped toilet paper around my hand and made makeshift pads for myself and then kept my stained knickers in a plastic bag and then washed them myself till my knuckles were raw with soap and didn't put them through the wash because I didn't want anyone to know. And I actually didn't tell my family until my younger sister started. And my mum made some comment about, oh, she started before you. And I was like, no, actually, I've been bleeding for ages. So it's curious to look back on a time when I think my mother would have really wanted to celebrate. And I cheated her of that, but also I didn't have that feeling. And that's something I really want to give to the girls that come to our groups is a sense of,

I mean, I do, I hear it from them. They're looking forward to it. They feel well prepared, but they're also quite excited about it and feel well-equipped also to know how to handle some of what might come as challenges at that time. So in that first year where we're meeting monthly, actually quite a good proportion of that, two whole sessions. So that's the whole sixth of the course

is devoted to menarche and to how to catch the blood and what's going on in the body. Later on, because what I didn't say is it doesn't stop there at the end of that year. We do continue to meet with the girls and support them once or twice a year right through their teens. And there's another workshop that we do later on. We tend to wait until they've been bleeding for a year or two. And it's called Charting Your your cycle so you're in charge oh great so once they've got a bit of a you know experience and understanding of their cycle we then bring in some of what um i know you do is sort of starting to understand the seasons of the cycle but we don't overwhelm them with all

of that to begin with because at the beginning they, what they're far more kind of busy with is what do I do if I start when I'm at school? What do I do if I leak onto my clothes? You know, some of the very practical things. And oh, my God, I don't want my mother to tell anybody. So we busy ourselves when we prepare them with much more the things of where they're at but we hold kind of in our in our in our up our sleeves knowing that we we've got so much more to introduce them to to them once they are once they're a bit further down the line but when i say we introduce it twice we for the first time we introduce it is about a third of the way through the year and we invite an an ambassador girls journey together girl an older girl who did girls journey together a few years ago who has started her bleed to come and join us and um talk about share her experience and and answer questions like well what do you do if it starts at school

and you know and often they'll ask questions of her that even, even they don't feel able to ask me or the facilitator, the adult who's running the session. And that's a very practical session. We, we, we have, we explain what's going on physically and we have, we have an artist who has made us the most beautiful felted wombs so that the girls can see what it looks like when I first started doing this work I had a photocopied sheet and I'd bring it out and the girls would all kind of recoil as they you know it's like oh um and I thought oh my gosh that's not what I want to have happen and I and I actually first of all tried to sew a womb I found that project because again I thought no they'll recoil again after this and then um and then actually we got this artist to create us wow so I'm seeing it right now on the screen

are so beautiful and what happens is the girls all move in closer and they want to touch it and of course um it's it gives us a wonderful visual way of explaining the story, the journey of the egg. It also can answer some of their questions like, you know, can the tampon get lost inside me? And where does the moon cup go? And how do you get it in and out? And so we have an actual physical thing we can use. And we get out all the different ways that you can catch the blood. And we put a tampon in a glass of red water and see what happens as it kind of expands massively rapidly and we we look at both usable and reusable products and we um and and they all could they can touch and feel them and they and we give them one to take home and then we all agree on an on a day

that week that they're going to put a pad in so the first time they use a pad isn't the first time they're bleeding onto it. So they get that feeling because otherwise they can see that, oh gosh, actually nobody knows I've got it in. And actually I forgot it was there. So they have a very, very kind of visceral experiential introduction. And then halfway through the year we invite all the mothers to join us. And they share their stories because whilst a girl might have heard from her own mother what her monthly cycle is like, what we found is that girls then thought something was wrong with them

if their own cycle was different from their mother's. So how much better to hear a whole range of different stories and also to learn from the women of what they've learned about how they manage their cycle and what they really love about their cycle. And to hear that from mums who aren't your mum, because you can ask your mum anytime, but to have the resource of all these other mothers. So the girls actually are really well prepared um and and actually teach the mums a thing or two yes I bet it's a very profound and practical way of de-shaming by getting everyone together sharing stories is basically the most profound way of de-shaming anything isn't it and you have to be able to hear the stories from the other mothers that's really beautiful and I love that you have the ambassador so the girl that's a bit older but not yet in the mother realm because I know I really looked up to girls that were a few years older than me when I

was that age and I bet they really relate to that too I'm wondering what you'd say to someone who is listening to this and their daughter or their child has started their period and is there anything they can do retrospectively to support them now hearing what what they're hearing from you of course it's never too late I think as you probably find in your work you know women in the middle of their lives it's it's never too late to learn more and understand more about what's going on in our bodies and and to actually recognize that our bodies are in service to us and that we when we tune in we can actually feel hugely supported by this this cycle that we are that we all go on and and and how it

connects us to nature and how it connects us to nature and how it connects us to ourselves. And, you know, it's never too late to learn that. And actually, there's a whole chapter in my book, which gives mothers the words, because I think so many mothers, their story is that they were given a leaflet or a book was left for them to read and their mother, their own mothers never really talked to them openly and so it's fine it makes them struggle to know how to speak about it with their own girls and girls are also really different so some girls really welcome the conversation other girls they shut their mums down straight away it's like no no no I don't want to talk about I don't want to hear about because it's actually sometimes harder to hear from your own mother so um in the book I I actually have a

whole section which speaks the words that I use when I'm talking to girls of that age which then helps the mother she can either read it herself and that gives her not a script but some words that she could use or she can sit down and it's written in such a way that she can sit down and read it with her daughter. And it will spark conversations. And actually possibly gives the mother some more information that feels so she feels she can answer some of the questions that her daughter may have. But something else that I really recommend in the book is a mother-daughter date once a month. And once their daughter is bleeding, to time that with the week of her bleed, because we all know that's a time when feelings can intensify and we might need that pressure

release valve of being able to vent or cry or mouth off or even just feel extra specially supported and cared for. So a mother-daughter date in the week when her daughter is bleeding can be a lovely way of just kind of privately, secretly acknowledging the special phase that she's in at that moment. So there are so very many ways that we can support our daughters. And even on our website, we've actually got a range of books that we suggest because what we've noticed is autistic girls have a very different need to some of their peers in terms of their relationship with their bodies and the monthly bleed and how they need to have it explained. And for a parent who is looking for help and support, explaining it to a child who really doesn't want to hear about it

or has very practical questions that they really need to know the answer to, there's lots of really good material out there. So if you go onto the resources section on our website the rights for girls.com website um there's a range of different books that that um that can support parents in in in then supporting their daughters great i'll put the link to that in our show notes to the resources page of the website and would you be able to say the name of your book again? So that if people are interested and I'll put a link to that too in the show notes. Yes. It's called From Daughter to Woman, Parenting Girls Safely Through Their Teens.

And it's written really for parents. Well, in my mind, I thought I was writing to parents of girls from sort of eight to 18. But actually, when I used to go around the country talking to packed halls full of parents a lot of the parents who turned up had toddlers and already they were worried and anticipating the teen years and in fact a lot of what's in there not only applies to girls of any age but boys too yes I am listening out for Artie here because it just feels like so much of what you're saying applies to him and our relationship I'm really glad that you brought up

the dates because one of the stories that Sharni shared with me was about how she set up this rhythm of dates with her two daughters so new moon is for one of them and full moon is for the other and she says it's made a really big difference in their relationship over the last four or five years and not only because the connection is deeper but also because it's become a safe space for them to come and ask the questions that start to arise at you know like 10 11 12 about the world and what a complex world it is that they're entering into she described the philosophy behind it as that if you start with connection then you're building a

strong foundation for everything else could you could you speak a bit more about that about this being the foundation yes absolutely because certainly parenting a teenager has its particular challenges and one of them is staying in connection with them because there's that kind of push me because certainly parenting a teenager has its particular challenges. And one of them is staying in connection with them because there's that kind of push me, pull you kind of dynamic that gets set up. And no matter how your teen seems, every single teenager wants your love and affection and connection, no matter what they may say to you.

And if you've got into a rhythm of spending one-on-one time with them regularly, then you've got a really good, you've got a foundation of that connection, but also you've got a place that they can rely on. And it's really interesting because mothers would often say to me, well, I do that. And yet the girls would kind of go, no, we don't. And that's what got me thinking about what's, what is it that makes mothers think it's happening and daughters think it's not. This is true of boys too. And it's, this is the date nature of it. Like a date, it needs to be put in the diary so that you can kind of look forward to it. It needs to be prepared for you,

decide what you're going to do together. And I think this is where mothers thought they were doing because in their minds, in their daily, they think, well, I've got a bit of time on Saturday afternoon. I could, you know, when after I've picked up after football, we could both go to the cafe. But then if life got busy, it wouldn't happen

and they hadn't said anything. So they thought it didn't matter. Or they would occasionally, I also say once a year, have a have a really big date you know like a trip somewhere to go and together um you know that takes a half a day or a day um and and um because it wasn't kind of a co-creation and perhaps wasn't seen in this in the light of this is my time and this is time that I can rely on that will happen regularly. It wasn't experienced by the girls in the same way, which is why we then created what was what we call the mother daughter date diary, which is we've got a few of them and we have got a unisex version as well, because, of course,

you know, sons need this just as much. And dads and daughters can go on dates, not just mothers and daughters. But what that does is it has a calendar. So you book in the date. And if it has to be changed for any reason, you don't just cancel it, you postpone it, you find a new date. Together, you plan what you're going to do. Then there's some pages where you can record what you've done, which can be such a lovely kind of um memory looking back and then the page that the girls really love is you rate the date so you decide how good it was um but it also tells you what sort of things you love doing so what a real surprise for me with my daughter is one of her favorite dates is to go charity shop shopping um now I'm not a shopper I hate shopping so for

number one she knows then that I must really love her if I'm going shopping with and um and the one thing that we the one sort of guideline that we go by is that we each have to buy one thing and that thing either has to be a gift for somebody that we go and give it to them or something that we use on our date um so it's got to focus that charity shop shopping and it's one of her favorite dates and it's cheap and it's easy and she seems she seems to have an endless um capacity for wanting to repeat it wonderful yeah shani described like sometimes they make a fort together or like they go and pitch the tent in the park or so it can be free. It doesn't have to be.

You know, they have gone for afternoon tea and things like that, too. But it can be. It's the time, isn't it? It's the setting aside and the committed, dedicated time that feels like it's the most important piece. There's nothing that makes a child feel more special than when an adult uses their spare time, their free time to be with them. There's nothing, you know, what parent doesn't want their child to have good self-esteem? Well, this is a way of guaranteeing that you give them that sense of you're important. You're that important to me that I set aside this time regularly. And I'm interested in you and what

you want to do. And like a date, sometimes you do something that they want to do. Sometimes you do something, you introduce them to something you like doing. Sometimes it's something you both like. And it's a really powerful way of creating a space that that child can rely on because many parents feel like they're constantly available to their children because, you know, they're around. And yet the child feels like the parent isn't available. And it's because, you know, we're busy cooking or writing an email or we're putting them to bed. And really, we just want to turn the light off and go back downstairs. Whereas this gives them such a clear message. This is your time. This is our time. Because it isn't one way. It's not just the parent being there for the child the child

gets the experience of getting to see and know the parent in a different way too which matures as the years go by and will form the foundation of a wonderful connection when the child has left home in fact when I wrote my book my mum I sent the first copy to my mother and she rang me up in tears she said I thought you'd write it written a book about all the, I sent the first copy to my mother and she rang me up in tears. She said, I thought you'd written a book about all the things I'd done wrong. That's what she'd seen me reading that I'd been doing. And I was like, no, well, the whole of the first chapter is about the mother daughter date. And she said to me, she said, is it too late? I said, well, she said, well, I'd like to go on a mother-daughter date and we do that because

we live in different cities typically we we would actually maybe go away for a weekend once once every while um but we I have a mother-daughter date with my mum too oh so beautiful so beautiful never too late thank you kim um we've talked about your website and the girls journeying together and am i understanding right that there are lots of different people who have trained with you so that these groups are happening across the country and across the world or across the uk we have group girls journeying together groups happening across the world, predominantly across the UK. So if anyone is listening to this and you know of a girl who's year six or year seven, you just go to the page, the girls journeying together page on our website.

And there's a map. If you put your postcode in, you'll find your nearest group. And don't feel if it's an hour or so away that that's too far. I've had parents traveling from Cornwall all the way across to the Ashdown Forest, starting their journey on Friday evening to come to my Saturday morning group once a month. Parents who recognize that doing this once a month for a year is such a gift, not only to their child but to themselves too um girls net of course is online so that happens all across the world it doesn't matter where where a child is um as long as the the time zone works and if you're sitting listening to this and you feel called to do this work to work with girls um to make a difference in their lives to to to change how it is for a girl growing up then come train with us you can train to become a girls net mentor online or the training to

become a girls journey together facilitator is in person it takes two years and will involve you running your first group so closely supported by us and each other, your cohort, so that you too can. It's really meaningful work. Honestly, it doesn't even feel like work. I've got a group starting up this Saturday and I've been sort of preparing for it and I just the relationship that you have with the girls you just fall in love with them and you know that you're making a difference and some of my older girls in my very first group are in their early 20s now and they're still in touch with me so they still tell me things that are going on and they met on zoom over the pandemic because they're now in different parts of

the world and all agreed that they were different from any of the other young women they were encountering at uni or at work and they didn't really know why until they started talking to each other and and all agreed that was something about the journey that they started in girls journeying together that just had had a profound effect on everything that had happened since. And I don't for a moment just credit Girls Journeying Together. It's that girls make connection with each other. They make friends for life. They make a stronger bond with their own mother and the other mothers in their group. And working as a Girls Journeying Together Together facilitator is such meaningful work and it's designed to fit around other commitments that you may have as a parent or as a carer or working.

But I love what I do and I love the girls and, you know, the Rights for Girls mission is to change the world. We're changing the world one girl at a time. Thank you, Kim. It's fired me up. I'm absolutely in love with what you do. I'm so grateful to you for creating this. And thank you for this wonderful conversation. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you, Sophie. wow thank you for joining us today please subscribe to the podcast follow it wherever you listen to podcasts and please do leave us a review on apple podcasts okay that's it for this week i'll see you i'll be with you next week and until then keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm