The Menstruality Podcast - How Cycle Awareness Unlocks Your Creativity (Alexandra & Sjanie)

Episode Date: November 18, 2021

Alexandra and Sjanie take us behind the scenes of their menopause book writing process to explore how menstrual cycle awareness can help each of us cultivate intimate connection to our own unique creative process, whether you’re bringing your creativity to work, art, healing, parenting, nurturing, activism or any other form of expression. They share how they’ve each been tutored by their cycles as well as Alexandra’s menopause process to navigate a wide array of creative challenges, harness the powers of each cycle phase and fully express their Calling.We explore:How to manage the inner critic - especially when it hijacks the early phases of a creative project - avoid the trap of procrastination and heal the layers of shame that can block our creativity.How to harvest the innocence, playfulness and improvisational strengths of inner spring (pre-ovulation) to trick yourself into creative expression, swim in the unknown and bring brand new ideas into the world.How to honour the energy of inner autumn (pre-menstruum) to polish the rough diamond of your work through constructive critical feedback, and get to the essence of what you’re trying to express in the most potent way.---Registration is open for our 2022 Menstruality Leadership Programme. You can check it out here: https://www.redschool.net/menstruality-leadership-programme-2022---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @red.school - https://www.instagram.com/red.school

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, thank you for coming back to the Menstruality Podcast. I'm so happy you're here. This episode is an exciting one. I delved behind the scenes of Alexandra and Shani's menopause book writing process to explore how menstrual cycle awareness can help

each of us to cultivate an intimate connection to our own unique creative process whether you're bringing your creativity to your work or art or your healing practice or your parenting or nurturing or activism or any other form of expression. We looked at how to manage the inner critic, how to avoid the trap of procrastination, how to heal the layers of shame that can block our creativity. We looked at how to honour the energy of inner autumn, the premenstruum, to polish the rough diamond of your work through constructive critical feedback, that's an edge for me, and how to harvest the innocence and the playfulness and the improvisation of inner spring to trick yourself into creative

expression. I hope you really enjoy this one. Good morning you two. Let's start this conversation about creativity and cyclicity with a cycle check-in. Where are you both at with your cyclical nature today? I am day 12 Sophie and I'm feeling buoyant. I'm experiencing a kind of lightness of being accompanied by a very tangible sense of being held up by something. Yeah, I feel incredibly supported in a very ease-filled way. It's lovely hearing that, Shani. It's interesting. So it's day six of the moon, and it's funny.

It just cracks me up. On new moon, bingo, out of nowhere, talking of creativity, ideas were popping in my head and I feel as though I've been riding this wave since New Moon of just being on a sort of creative flow really of ideas coming up and feeling and sort of feeling in the flow of it and not feeling. Sometimes I get a bit high and I crash on about day three or so. And that hasn't happened. So when you speak of being sort of buoyed up by something, Shani, or held up by something, I think probably that's what's happening for me. And I'm just feeling not quite so sparky with ideas, but still it's but it's a bit more grounded now I suppose

on day six and I'm on day 17 so I'm all sparks all creative ideas pouring in and I'm also clocking that inner autumn is on the horizon and that I'll need to rein this in a bit so as not to get overwhelmed I clocked that this morning rein it in so uh you know today's conversation is what I would love to do is go behind the scenes of your creative process with the book that you're writing and before do that, I just want to hear from you about your own creativity. One of the things I admire about you both is your capacity to keep endlessly generating brilliant and beautiful things in the world, books, courses, programs, videos, conversations, podcasts. So I want to tap into your secret, please please and hear about what helps you to manifest things in the world and what do you draw on to support you through this creative process

oh wow Sophie that's a corker of a question Sh Sharni, over to you. I have, I've started to notice, Alexandra, whenever there are big questions that you deflect in my way. Don't think I haven't noticed. All right. So, yes. What is my secret? When you asked that question, Sophie, I just, I notice how alive I feel with everything I do. And I think if I were to put it down to anything, it's that I am really in the river of creativity. I feel like I'm being carried, guided, prodded, inspired. I feel inside something. I feel held by something. And the practice of cycle awareness has plugged me into that. Yeah, my practice of cycle awareness has really plugged me in to this river of creativity in me. And I would like to say, you know, I'm doing this without effort. But that isn't, of course, entirely true, because there are times of great effort and great challenge so it's not

without effort or challenge but on the whole I have a deep sense of being worked by something and being guided by something and I'm showing up and doing the next thing that's in front of me. Yes, I really put it down to cycle awareness and how that's keyed me into myself and into this flow, captures the feeling of my experience of creativity you know that i am i feel held by creativity and that sense of holding you know i'm going to go right the way back to my just before my very first bleed and that amazing no that was my experience of my very first bleed itself yeah i felt this incredible affirmation of myself i just felt such a and i feel as i've been you know i got this lovely feeling of inoculation of grace as i stepped onto my menstruating years of course I was a total innocent and um but actually it was as though creativity stepped in that was the grace you know and it has been quietly as you say working me

it's been work coming up to the surface each you know each cycle it's been edging its way to the surface when I say to the surface into a clarity in my mind about what it is that I am doing but embedded in my bones in my being was a knowing that something meaningful was at work I mean it's kind of wild that. And it was a grace, you know, it was given me really. So, yes, it was my process with my cycle over the years. And then, of course, for me, menopause was an extraordinary clarifying moment in two ways one it clarified who I was and that is the gift of gifts when it comes to creativity knowing utterly oh this is who I am what my nature was so now I was sort of much more aligned with myself I have like a clearer channel and it is um actually the ideas in fact I wish

they slowed down a bit it's like a freaking super highway now and it's almost a bit exhausting but I will never complain I will never complain about having too many ideas. But what so menopause has given me this sort of channel to the creative part of me. But also menopause has given me this extraordinary capacity to hold the rigor of what manifesting something really requires. I mean, your years of cycle awareness are growing you in that but boy menopause really gives you a an intense disciplined appreciation of the depths really that creativity your creative process can take you to and um I suppose in a way it's given me courage, even more courage to trust myself and to trust my own voice. Yeah, I would say that was the gift of menopause for my creative process. Wow, Alexandra, I have this, as you've described that journey, you know, I had this image of you at Menarche like the floodgates of grace and

creativity opening up and then you know you being worked by that through your menstruating years and then at menopause you describe this sort of tone that came into your system to be able to really bear with and channel this immense force into into your work in the world which is obviously what you are doing but I just saw and felt it so clearly as you described your journey it's very very lovely oh that touches me that you when you feed that back to me Sharni thank you very much indeed and hearing you speak then Sharni makes me see what you referred to as the river of your creativity in the same way that is a river that's flowing I guess towards the full expression of your calling and you through your cycle awareness you've been kind of getting deeper

and deeper into the river allowing it to take you more. Yes. Yes. That's exactly it. And you know what's so interesting, Sophie, because we're talking about creativity as this living presence. And, you know, I experience it as something that I'm in relationship with. It's like this, I want to say silent friend but it isn't necessarily silence like an invisible friend maybe is a better way of describing it it's this conversation that i'm having with life which works on a very need to know basis and this is what is so fascinating about it you know it's really a one foot in front of the other situation so my practice of cycle awareness um has given me this incredible skill which i'm still very much learning to um hone of um navigating the unknown this is my this has been my experience

with creativity it's like okay, I kind of know where I am. I know where I've been. And I'm on the brink of the unknown with every next step that I take. You know, so as we showed up for this conversation today, you know, before the interview, we were chatting about, you know, what we were going to cover. And I really felt be this sea of unknownness. Like I had no idea where this conversation was going to go, what was going to unfold. And in that moment, I thought, oh, yeah, I know how to do this. Because every damn day, I wake up in this sort of unknownness. And that practice of cycle awareness and connecting with where I am at in the day anchors me to the here and now and in that I'm readied for what wants to come next I'm sort of

riding the wave of this creative unfolding and I'm so grateful for that because goodness one needs to be able to hold one's nerve when it comes to creativity. Yeah. Shani, I just have to come in here. I could barely contain myself. It just cracks me up what you're saying. I had a phrase that dropped in recently because, of course, you know, there's another book waiting in the wings behind our men. Oh, don't.

And the creativity book. And it's been bursting through and and i just had this phrase in my head going working blind you know you're working blind you know that the universe gives you the tiniest little morsel that completely electrifies you yeah and you can't let it go and and you're you're sort of working blind with with what the you know what it's going to be ultimately and you've just described it so perfectly by the way I went and wrote that phrase down as one of the little chapterlets exactly all right so now I can't contain myself because speaking of the creativity book that's waiting that reminds me of something else that's really important about creativity is that it has its own, not only its own agenda,

but it has its own timing. Because that creativity book, was it about three years ago, Alexandra? It tapped us both on the shoulder and it started talking to us. We were both like, oh, this creativity book. And we decided in the midst of our crazy life, at the time we were really full on with all kinds of things, that we would get up an hour early in the morning,

we would sneak to our offices and we would meet online at like seven o'clock or something in the morning. In our pajamas. In our pajamas and do an hour's writing on the creativity book without anyone knowing like before my kids got up before my husband just steal this time we started writing on the creativity book but lo and behold it left us and then the menopause book came in and that's what we've been doing for the last couple of years

except that the creativity book kept butting in. Kept butting in while we were writing. And we'd have to detour and write something down. God, yeah. Anyway, you get the idea, Sophie. Ideas are not our problem. And I don't think ultimately they're the problem for anyone. I sort of feel like it's this thing of just coming to

know yourself more and more and this magic word trust in yourself and your voice um because if I think of myself way back when I was in my 20s I was paralyzed about putting anything on paper. I could not, seriously, I could not write a thing. I was, there was so much shame and gunk in myself about my own creativity. And when I wrote my first book, Wild Genie, I took forever to write it. And I remember having to write through layers of gunk and shame and I it was only because I've got a will to die for uh and and and and and the idea would not let me go that I had to write this something I just had to write something that I literally bulldozed through this gunk. And it turned out not to be gunk.

It actually turned out to be, I was quite proud of the writing. Yeah. There's a question that Brene Brown asks in her quickfire round of all her podcasts, which is something along the lines of, you're called to be brave, but you feel afraid and you can feel that fear in your throat. What's the first thing you do? And I think it's a great question. And I want to turn it to you both and say, you're in the unknown. You don't know what's happening, but you feel called to create. What's the first thing you do?

I'm going to say, wait. Pause. This is actually, Alexandra, I have you to thank for this because you are really the queen of holding spaciousness and trusting in the unknown and what I have learned from you and what I've learned from my practice of cycle awareness is not to override that moment of discomfort but to really presence myself in it and give it time to unfold because every moment has enormous potential if you don't pass it by so that's uh yeah that's that's what i'm in training with how about you alexandra i i find your words beautiful shani of this um you know this spaciousness so i have a couple of responses

one really echoing your shani really where when there's discomfort in me and a not knowing of what to do i i just have a rule of thumb which is to just i i mean i have often have the voice in my head that says just shut up pope and listen but um truly uh or just yeah just an instruction to stop and as you say wait and and it's as though the disturbance then fills out inside me and it can then start to take shape. At first, it's just disturbance. But if I stabilize myself and let it have some space in me, something starts to unfold. And then, you know, spaciousness kind of opens the way forward, doesn't it, Shani? Oh, see, that was that was yes that was so

well said i was right with you there that's it yes you open into something yeah the disturbance then can then reveal its shape to you yes it's like that i mean it doesn't necessarily even happen overnight although I have to say sleeping on something is radical yeah sorts out everything like bleeding on something exactly so there's that but then the other response I had and I was thinking of it very much in terms of writing Sophie which is that um I just say to myself you know when I'm feeling this discomfort and I have to step up to something aka a blank page and I have to put words on a page I have I always say to myself Pope I'm always I always address myself as Pope not on a first name basis just here it's a command and it's tough just write crap just write anything just but but just start writing

and so I just write what is ever is in my head and I literally start writing sort of often really cliched stuff and it's like kick-starting a car it is you you it gets you over the line and suddenly the car's moving so suddenly my creative flow I suddenly sort of kick-start my creative flow and suddenly lo and behold crap is not something more than crap is coming through and um there's some actually sort of some good stuff and then ideas kick off in me and I could go oh well yes it's like what I'm writing suddenly reveals something or that another idea comes into my head that I got that is actually the thing to run with yeah Alexandra I what you have said there I consider to be just the most precious advice um because

this thing of I mean I I will we'll get into me in a minute but because I personally struggle with that, with that kind of new beginning, that getting going place. I know a lot of people do. I know a lot of people have lots of good ideas, but it's breaking the, I want to say Hyman, because that's how it feels to me. It's breaking the seal from that perfect bubble of the idea. The idea is, you know, when I have an idea, it is divine. It hasn't touched the worldly, you know, the worldly, the worldly world yet. It hasn't become tainted by reality. It is divine. And there's something about breaking that

seal, which always feels quite edgy. And, I notice I want to you know get it right or know how to do it or have a plan or almost be at the end before I've even begun and what Alexandra said about you know just showing up and messing about it is such a clever way of getting yourself over the line it works for me every time to just make that safe passage from the perfection of one's idea into motion into movement and from there you're in the river and then the river carries you which is always so exciting to feel and to experience so I just if anybody's listening please write that down make note I'm I'm going to I'm going to big note myself but I'm also going to celebrate you Shani your approach um it is a a really good strategy there of just do something and and

i've it cracks me up because i i've got you over a few lines by just saying well let's just pretend you know let's just play at an idea you know when you're just going no no no no no no let's just play at it and then so i know that the moment I get you across the line, you are off and ideas are just pouring through. And it's so funny. We could say you've tricked me into a couple of things. A couple of things. Like running the MLP online. Exactly.

Our menstruality leadership program. You tricked me into doing that. I did. I'm rather pleased with that one. So, yes, I am igniting myself. But I want to celebrate you because, you see, I am a sort of leap before you look. And I love the improv. I'm very good at improvising. I love courting the unknown, just improvising with what comes up.

But you have brought something really precious to me and and it's come out you know you're sort of holding back and holding back um there's a lot of really I remember with uh wild power how do you remember we were just pissing around I was down at your place and it was just so difficult getting across the line and we just went for this long walk and then I think some something out of that came and we did this whole ritual but it was your ideas it was from your sort of holding back that we created this really lovely ritual I would have just slept in cold turkey but because of your holding back there was a sort of respect we brought to the beginning of something it was like we were lining ourselves up with the whole idea of the book yeah and I really really really appreciated that so I I don't I don't dismiss your messing around there's there's your your spirit is really negotiating coming into it and it's the same I remember with the menopause

book exactly yeah before you knew before you and I really sat down and nutted out a plan for months for months I was thinking about it I was trying to write stuff and it was like I was courting it and and I had no demands on myself about trying to do something intelligent and that yeah I yes I want to really celebrate your way thank you Alexandra and that's another I think really beautiful piece um to just underscore which is that you know when you're beginning something having yourself aligned with your intention makes all the difference down the road. and to approach the threshold of that new beginning with respect and reverence because it's it's a very precious and precarious moment a new beginning it's fragile as well isn't it alexandra um yes it's it's sort of a mighty moment it is mighty in the momentum of the book but it is

very fragile and vulnerable very fragile you know it's very much like coming out of menstruation there is that moment where you've been in that beautiful bubble and then you have to cross the line of coming out of that cocoon and into the world and it's precarious it requires it actually requires slowness it does require slowness so yeah thank you for thank you for appreciating the gift of my downfalls I would love to look at a practical real world example of this moment and then the other creative moments that follow by looking at your process with writing the menopause book which you've just handed the first draft of the manuscript in right yeah congratulations amazing so when you were in this tender phase which is like coming out

of menstruation of you've been courting the idea you've been building a relationship with it and then you start to bring it into the world what does that what did that look like for you in the menopause book writing process well we have a rule of thumb sophie that no critics are allowed and and we almost say it every time don't we shiny we say we say a version of, you know, let's write crap, you know, basically, or no idea is all ideas are accepted. Every thought is taken seriously. And what we do is we just let each other riff, really. And the other takes note. So I'll be riffing away often. Well, with the menopause book, it sort of started with me riffing, obviously.

And Shani would ask me the question you know what's this book about what a radical question well what do you want to say about menopause Alexandra you know we just ask questions and and then this you know whenever we were stuck we would use that question thing wouldn't we Shani you'd ask a question and and and then um i would just my brain would just open up with the question it would just almost like the two of us together created a channel and and then ideas would just start coming and shiny would just start typing and shiny has a particular genius that i don't which is that she can both sort of type my thoughts

but also organize them or just slightly reframe and she'll start to see themes. She's really brilliant at sort of seeing themes and categorising things. I see patterns when Alexandra's talking or I catch sort of threads of, you know, through lines and, you know, it's very pleasurable for me to do that, actually. I love it.

It's such a great skill of yours, Sani. And then together we sort of spark off each other. So I'll do it for her too. And that's really how we got the book plan, because you really do need a bit of a structure to get going. I mean, eventually, you know, the book plan we had got radically revised when we came to the reality of trying to fulfill it. We suddenly realized, oh, that doesn't work. And actually the content was coming out, needed to go, you know, needed a different kind of framing.

But you need it really helps to have some kind of ordering at the beginning. So you have this kind of all ideas on the table And then there's a sort of sorting that goes on. And then there's this plan that comes and then you can start to write to the plan. Because when I was dreaming into the book originally, I didn't have a structure or a plan. And that was also the problem. But I needed just to be in that sort of unknown to let I knew some things and I could write some things but there's no order to it what about you Shani well yeah as you're describing that it's um it's really reminding me how the book goes through these phases of the creative process and it goes through this thing of you know being just a nascent idea with you know being quite nebulous and unformed and then through playing and asking questions and experimenting with ideas it gets this sort of

structure and then that structure gets fleshed out and filled out but then what happens is that structure eventually breaks down or you realize it doesn't work and you have to redo rewrite so it goes through this sort of death and rebirth process over and over. And in that, there is a lot of swimming in the unknown again. And we often would have moments, didn't we, Alexandra? We would go, oh, I can't see the wood for the trees in this book. It was just like walking through the densest forest, chopping your way through. There's no path. It's dark. You're lost. You're disorientated. You just keep taking one step in front of the other. And then at some point, you would find you were at a vantage point and

suddenly you could see a vista and you could see where you'd come and where you were going and suddenly things would come clear again but there's a lot of this going you know deep into the dark woods and you know getting lost and then coming up and being like oh okay yes this is where we are if you would like to explore how your cycle awareness can activate your creativity bring joy ease and balance to your work life and inspire you to live your calling ever more fully we invite you to visit menstrualityleadership.com where you can find out more about red school's menstruality leadership program in module two we teach how to harness the map of the four phases of the creativity cycle to thrive in all your creative expressions in the world.

That's menstrualityleadership.com. What you're saying reminds me totally of my own experience of going around my menstrual cycle every month. Exactly. And you teach this process beautifully. I received it when I did the MLP. It's in module two, you draw all these correlations between the different phases of the creative process and the different phases of the menstrual cycle because they are they are one and the same exactly yes our understanding so you asked us at the beginning of this interview you know what our secret is and another way of answering that question is that alexandra and i have both come to really know and understand the creative process so deeply and intimately

through our knowing and understanding of menstruality and of the menstrual cycle process, because the menstrual cycle tutors you in a very profound way in the phases of the creative process, how to navigate the challenges, how to harness the power of each phase, and really how to let yourself be worked by it in a way that allows you to create, that allows you to fulfill something, that allows you to express what it is you have deep within you. yes that's really our secret isn't it Alexandra it's the knowledge that comes from spirituality it is absolutely that knowledge Shani and you know

I've really learned I you know I used this word trust earlier it builds trust in the creative process when you cycle month after month and you go through that death and rebirth oh you remember oh that's right life follows death yes the light returns so when we were in the dark woods which was so uncomfortable and we'd get so edgy wouldn't we we'd be sitting together so well if when we were physically together but even online we'd be saying oh no this is too much I can't do this you know and yet we just knew we had to hold the tension you know we learnt that from cycle awareness holding the tension and we'd hold and I would often pray I hope oh Shani's going to get an insight Shani's going to see anyway and I think

you were sort of praying I'd secretly because you know my mind would be blank and I'm going Jesus I hope Shani is going to be the channel you know because my mind's blank right now and actually it would happen like that one of us would or one of us would go oh I'm going to go to the loo now we and of course that would create a space and it was the person that was left behind with the problem suddenly would have a breakthrough but of course you know I'd say I'm going to the loo now to escape the tension and and hope Shani would figure something out whilst I was away it was so funny and she would and then vice versa it would happen but it is this trust in in ultimately it is this trust in the unknown if you can it's the holding the tension that's sort of the alchemical vessel if you like because if you can't hold the tension of the problem you won't get the

solution to come through um but then when it would come through then we'd be just on a flow you know there is that wonderful phase you know it's like the summer of the menstrual cycle it's like you sophie you've just been you know you've been just in this massive flow because you've been in the summer of your menstrual cycle just you know powering away with ideas and things and it's like that in the creative process you suddenly hit a flow you come into the flow of something you know what you're doing oh that is so great so good i want to share with you all, that will go down as one of the most pleasurable weeks of my life. This was in the summer this year, and I got together with Alexandra at her house for a week. And we were at that point in the menopause book writing process where we had

done a lot of the messing around a lot of the, you know, that brainstorming. We had a lot of words on the page and we had, the whole project had shifted gears. We were really in the flow of the book. So excited. We were in love with it. We were in love with the book and we were in love with writing

and there was so much energy and momentum and we both felt so good so carried so buoyed and we spent a week together I should just tell you we were cooked for by the lovely Jane Power who is one of the Red School graduates she provided us and delivered us food three times a day so we're completely taken care of all we had to do was show up and write this was proper like summer time as in in a summer you know it was just so wonderful and we just wrote and wrote for hours every day and we were bouncing off each other we were out of one mind do you remember how pleasurable it was Alexandra it was so satisfying it was joyful and we had the doors open to the garden and we just fall out into the garden and lie on the grass and then and then go back inside again and power away and then this

magnificent food would show up it is that sense of being in the flow and we were so supported so we weren't interrupted. Yeah, it felt so abundant. And that is this phase of this, what we call the manifest phase of the creative process, is such a wonderful time. And it's so worth enjoying because it doesn't last. It comes to a sad, sorry end. Yes. Just like the inner sum of the menstrual cycle, which you are now feeling, Sophie. It comes to an end, the halcyon days.

And you know what's waiting for you. Before we get to what's waiting for us, which I really do want to get to before we get to what's waiting for us which I really do want to get to I want to jump back to the inner spring phase that we were talking about before when you have the idea and you're starting to get going and one of the things you said was no critics allowed oh yes and I want to hone in on this a little bit because one thing I know from working with so many women over the past 10 years, really, is that so many people are invaded by the critic in the early phases. And that critic can have so many strategies to shut us up.

Imposter syndrome, fear of visibility um uh procrastination there's a million things I really would love to hear what you two do or how you know how you've learned to work with this when the critic comes in in quote unquote the run wrong phase of the creative cycle like the place where it really can't be helpful how do you actually keep the critic out what do you do in the moment when it comes in it's a discipline of awareness because we know that now you know because of cycle awareness we've really learned you know that that the critic has an appropriate place in the creative process but it's not in the early stages or you know or in the spring of our cycle and what do I do well to put it bluntly I tell it to but in stronger language than this

piss off and I mean seriously seriously I tell it to something off and um really out loud too Sophie I say it out loud and Shani and I say it to each other and I have to say it gets easier I mean my first book as I recounted I had I didn't have that understanding about the critic and the author and that came in 2011 I believe it was no no it was the beginning of 2012 on that second of that first training we ran and it landed in the middle of the night for me because I was dealing with a challenge going on and then I got this incredible download in the middle of the night about the critic and it changed everything for me in my understanding of myself, but also what we teach, you know, around the cycle. It's been transformative for people to understand this. And I am disciplined about it, you know.

Yeah, because I understand the creative process. Yeah, I tell it to piss off. And we, Shani and I, remind ourselves everything is allowed right now. Nothing is censored. Everything is allowed. How about you, Sharni? Yes, I'm going to echo what Alexandra said. And for me, it's a struggle.

I notice one of my kind of tactics, well, not helpful tactics, is I notice I want to just avoid doing anything. So I want to distract myself from actually showing up. I find it very hard to show up when my critics on the scene in those early stages. And so this is where, you know know for me just getting myself there and reminding myself to muck about makes all the difference so there's a real permission giving that I need to do for myself I need to give myself permission to just mess around and not do anything you know meaningful interesting smart brilliant you know take all the pressure off but then as Alexandra said it's just a case of constantly checking in with myself am I censoring or am I even you know

because Alexandra and I work together which I know not a lot of people do but am I judging her at this early stage you know am I oh, that's a terrible idea? And by the way, Alexandra, the answer is no, I'm not doing that. I just wanted to check, Shani, otherwise there'd be words there, Jack. But it is a discipline. I'm checking in myself, you know, am I being too heavy handed with my, you know, discernment? And another thing that I have also learned,

which comes back to cycle awareness, there are certain times in my cycle where it is a lot harder to show up with that kind of naivety and innocence and playfulness. You know, for example, in the inner autumn of my cycle, I am very discerning naturally. It takes a lot more to rein myself in. But it is, as Alexander says to say you know it's an awareness practice I really feel like and I know you agree that it's such an overlooked superpower in our

world that innocence and playfulness you know it's so easy to come in with a more I don't know jaded cynical perspective in our world today but that is so precious and it's if we hone it and support it and create the conditions for it who knows what kind of creative solutions we could bring to the big challenges that we face you know I feel like it's something that's really overlooked in our world. Sophie that's absolutely profound what you said i almost feel tears listening to you i feel so fierce about caring for innocence in this phase of the creative process i am fierce about it nothing is born without a degree of foolishness and innocence and wonder and what if that's why I and I feel it's a little bit of my superpower that innocence because I am I'm remarkably naive and naivety is not a good thing but behind that naivety is a wonderful innocence and I am so grateful for it so grateful for it um it's got me over so many lines yeah and

I think it's profound what you just said actually and you know so if I think you're also speaking to this one of the qualities that's very present in this early stage is vulnerability. Our creative ideas are vulnerable when they're new and when they're unformed and unpolished and immature. And if we don't allow them to have that awkward stage, if we don't allow them to be immature, then nothing will ever get created. So I think, you know, in order to for anything to change, it needs to make good safe passage through this awkward, vulnerable stage. And the only way good safe passage can be made is if we hold boundaries and don't allow cynicism and criticism and harshness to creep in

and that's a big ask in you know it's a big ask one thing you suggest in wild power i think it's a big ask in, you know, it's a big ask. One thing you suggest in wild power, I think it's one of the guidelines for handling your inner critic is to make a date with your critic. And that's one thing that works for me when I noticed her coming in and my critic is much louder in motherhood. I've just noticed it. It's amplified by 10. It's, it's excruciating actually sometimes and so when she's popping in all over the cycle I've actually gone right I'm gonna talk to you in inner autumn like tell me all about it in inner autumn not right now and the other day with my listening partner

I just let my critic rip I let her say everything she wanted to say. And to know that someone was listening to me and holding me, that gave me the boundaries to sort of hold what she was saying. Wow, that's powerful. That is so powerful. And Sophie, you're pointing to this thing of a time and a place for things. And when they have their right time and right place, they can really serve their purpose and this is what we have come to really appreciate about the creative process is that there is a

right time and a right place for the critic to show up and for feedback to come in and so that if I may that leads us very nicely onto what comes after that wonderful inner summer phase of manifesting and joyful writing that we were doing. Yeah, let's go there. Exactly. So once you've been in the glorious summertime where you can hopefully, like you did, create the conditions for all of that wild creativity to just dance and be and and pour out onto the page or the canvas or whatever it is that you're doing what happens next once you've got that down and you move more from the inner summer into the inner autumn or the autumn phase of the creative process what did that look like for you with the menopause book writing it's so interesting you know in that halcyon moment it's perfection isn't it shani yeah it just feels like it's perfect what we've done yeah and i always

have thought i had it with wild power i had it again and i even dared to say that loud again to alexandra i said wow so we had our you know we had our first draft written at that point you know sort of first first draft and I said first draft yeah it could do you think we could have actually written a perfect book first time do you think maybe we've done it is this the first time in history that a book needs no editing no reviewing no feedback I think we might have done it Alexandra it's perfect yeah we do we let ourselves have that thought and oh god you know we also knew we also knew there'd be feedback that there must be feedback there must be feedback that it you know we and we also knew it wasn't perfection actually um but and there are two

things for me one is um i if i give something space for a while because you know we'd worked very intensely together and then we went our separate ways and sort of when I came back to look at it again later I could see the holes I could see oh that doesn't really quite work actually or oh and then you it's so time and distance give you perspective so my own feedback was starting to come in so there was this my own sort of critical and this is really and this is the critics moment it's really really necessary so okay you've got to submit your work to your own critic and to others critics critical eyes critical eyes because the critic has this incredibly potent role in the creative process.

I so get it now. It takes a rough diamond, which is what we had. We had a rough diamond, and it goes through this excoriating, probably, process of polishing in the feedback um to come out as the diamond of the finished product you know when i think of where wild power was and the book that we have now when it went through all sorts of feedback stages um and and the editing process at Hay House. And oh my God, I love that book, Wild Power. It's so well done. It's so, and it was, there were so many players involved

and feedback voices involved in getting it to that finished product. And so we know the necessity of the critic. We know we have to give it to others to, you know, to have a look and to give their perspective because we no longer have that perspective and it's never comfortable it's just it's just but I have strategies by which I cope with this process could you name maybe one of those strategies alexandra well i have to remind myself that i

have written something i have produced something i.e there is a product there that's got so much in it goodness in it that someone that that someone is actually able to give feedback on you know there is a something there so i remind myself i've got something meaty and juicy yeah yeah you know a lot of people um i know i've experienced this at times and i've heard stories from others that they avoid actually creating something because they know the inevitability of sharing it and getting feedback. So having the muscle, having the capacity to take feedback is really, really important in order to create anything. And strategies, yes, I'm with you, Alexandra Alexandra one of the things that I find so helpful is to very consciously and actively praise myself for all to actually take my own side on what I've

created as well as to receive the criticism so you know with our book I there were things about it which I could really celebrate and appreciate and feel proud of. So I have that as a sort of buffer. So when the feedback comes, I'm not bare to and that that makes it very doable for me um but you know the more you care about something the harder it is to take difficult feedback it's really hard it's really hard isn't it Shani yeah and I remember with Wild Power, we got that feedback, you know, and you just bursting into tears. We just didn't know because that's the other thing. You don't know how to deal with the problem. It's like not only have you about critical feedback is it's taking you out of your known remit you know when you write the book you're working within your kind of known world what you think works and doesn't work and then somebody comes along point something

out to you that you don't yet quite have the imagination to reach. And this is what I find so powerful about feedback. Because yes, with Wild Power, we were so tired, we'd finished the first draft, we got feedback, which required us to sort of rework a whole section, which we could not see how to redo. But then we went away, we rested, recovered, which is really crucial. That's a really important part. To deal with feedback, you need to be well-resourced. We rested, we recovered. And then in meeting the feedback and in having that empty space,

it was like we were able to break through into another world of possibilities that we hadn't yet imagined of how things could work, of how things could be written, of how things could be ordered or what have you. Alexandra, you, I mean, this is, you love this part of the creative process, don't you? Yeah, yeah and actually really want to reiterate what you're saying there and I learned it from writing the wild genie wild genie um because I get I I actually employed someone to help me because I had no idea how to write that a book at that stage and an editor and I would sort of send off my chapters to her or sections to her. And then the feedback would come. And I've sort of, it was overwhelming. It was just completely overwhelming. And I would sort of look at it almost out of the corner of my eye, sort of half take it in. But I had no idea, you know,

to take my heart and soul just to do the bit that I'd done for her. And then I would leave it. And I would sometimes, I just could not go near the. And then I would leave it. And I would sometimes I just could not go near the book. And I would leave it for sometimes five weeks. You see, I had no deadline at this point. This was it took me forever to write this book. And then I'd come back. And it was like a whole new baby. It was less personal to me. And I'd be reading the feedback again. And I go, Oh, I know how to do that. Yes, yes, I could do. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And exactly what you've described. You know, something would kick off in me.

I had to have the distance from it, time distance. And even just a night's sleep gives me distance and a fresh mind. But in those days, I needed like a month away before I could dare look at really because of the levels of shame in myself I was dealing with and sort of self-loathing and my critic stuff Jesus Jesus I don't know how did that book ever get written it's just a miracle but the thing is the more the thing that I learned you see is the more you do it it's I want to say the easier it gets I guess I guess what it becomes more like oh it's just a job this is part of the process it's just a job I do this bit and then someone else comes along and they say what they you know they

say what they like and don't like and and it's just another job and I now know how to frame that job I know I need to be buffered and and have rested and a bit of space from it. And that's what allows it to, as you beautifully described, to become that well polished diamond. So I think with that appreciation, for me anyway, it gives me more resilience. I'm like, okay, this is what it takes to bring this book into a final finished product. And so I have respect for it as well which also helps me get through and can I just say too Shani yes I agree with you that respect thing and I felt it very strongly with the menopause book because I felt we could really employ that critical imagination we were employing it much earlier in a much more sort of disciplined

way not in a negative way in a creative way and i remember you know you and i have sort of gotten over our own egos a little bit more now haven't we because it was so tender you'd be commenting on a piece of the book i'd written and i'd be sort of all defensive like no no no that must be and vice versa i'd be sort of super critical about something. Well, not super critical, but, you know, critical about something you've written. And you'd be going, yes, but no, no, but that's really good. And then we'd sort of say, no, no, but that bit's staying.

You know, we'd sort of defend our own quarter. But actually, we've both matured so much, just in life in general. We're both older and just a bit smarter about things and I actually felt it with this with this round of the book we were much less attached I was going to say we were able to take it much less personally I definitely feel that yeah yeah no and we and and I was really taking pleasure in our critical powers I really loved our critical eye and we'd be reading through something we're

going no no something's not working in that it's just the tone no the rhythm's gone or something we were just so acute it's just such an acuity it's so refined that critical energy the more you trust it you just become more and more refined about what you're wanting to do it really helps you doesn't it Shani to get to the utter essence of what you're trying to articulate I mean it is gold that's gold it creates potency it really creates potency yeah I do love it that's it it creates so much potency in what you're doing oh my goodness that's it Shani yeah that a great word. This is so lovely to hear because the critic gets such a bad rap. I mean, this is like a love, a love letter to the critic right now. It's really energizing to hear it's freeing up something creatively in me.

It can also get out of control. I just want to tell you one little story quickly. So because I realized we're probably coming to the end. But there came a point in our book writing process where we were doing our own sort of discernment and reflection and critical stock take of what we had written before we sent it off to our four early readers, five early readers. And by this point, we were both pretty tired and were on the book. All we were seeing was what was

not working. And then some, you know, we were in those final stages of just having had enough. And really, everything started to take on a somewhat dirty hue. And Alexandra was slashing and burning every second line. She was like, oh, that's just too much. Now I'm bored of that. Just take that out. Just delete, delete. And I felt like I was on death watch. I was having to like, before she deleted the entire book, I was like, wait, wait, that's a very good paragraph. Don't delete that. It's a dangerous time in the creative process. I'm sure people relate to this, but you know, you really, you do get sick and tired of your own thing and just feel like you want to just throw it all in the bin. And I want to forewarn you, do not, do not hit delete,

do not destroy it all, because there is something good there. You're just probably too tired to see it, which is where it's a really good time to take a break, isn't it? Oh God, that was so funny. It was so true. This conversation to me feels like such clear evidence that menstrual cycle awareness has massive power because it with everything you're saying I can hear how your cycle awareness has honed your capacity in every single stage of this book writing and I want to go back and sort of summarize what you were describing there with the the autumn feedback moment and then the key to being able to really receive that feedback when you're exhausted and when you've like given everything you had in order to create this thing is essentially what what it sounded like you were

describing was going into inner winter was like just letting everything go dropping your bundle and resting rest and replenish rest and replenish and then it sounded like in a spring that you were describing that comes from that which is oh yeah I see how we can incorporate that piece and I see how we can do that exactly that's actually a beautiful summary and you know there's another little element just to throw in here which is when you spoke about giving our heart and soul to it um we've exposed our underbelly you see when you're putting your own original creative creative work out there you're really showing your underbelly of yourself so you're so vulnerable

so the the critical feedback can almost feel like a mortal wound. And it's this feeling of, well, betrayal, really is a strong word. But, you know, well, you know, you're sort of mortally wounded and then you kind of want to turn it on your book almost or on yourself. I mean, it's such a knife edge moment, isn't it, Shani? It could be very, very intense, especially when you're very new to the creative process. I mean, we're a bit seasoned and a bit hardened, not hardened in a negative way, but toughened up. We've toughened up. And we understand the creative process. We understand the menstrual cycle process.

So, you know, you feel that mortal mortal wound the ground is taken from under you and it's just that death moment and you go oh it's impossible i can't do this i can't do it it's impossible i just want to walk away i want to abandon the project it's all rubbish it's all shit and that's of course what sharni pointed out that death wash moment and which is the void in the menstrual cycle we all know that place just a day or two before bleeding yeah and you want to just betray everything and just abandon it all but new life follows death and you've experienced it month after month and it comes back again it's just it to me it's always a miracle it's just a miracle it's the gift of life it's just incredible it's amazing i'm so grateful for this knowledge of the cycle i am so

freaking grateful i have been embedded in it. So grateful. So final question, quickie. If you had one bit of advice, so if we can sort of distill one golden nugget for someone who is looking out at a creative project or wanting to bring forth their unique offering? You know, they're poised, they're ready, or they feel the call. What one piece of advice would you give?

I have two pieces. One, don't tell it to the world. Keep it private first. just keep it with you yourself and that idea you know and the second thing is create space book time in your schedule where there's nothing else on and you just turn up and you sit with it even if you don't know what the hell you're going to say do create right whatever it is you create space and you sit with it even if you don't know what the hell you're going to say do create right whatever it is you create space and you sit with your baby your baby idea yeah but don't tell anybody good one alexandra so i'm my piece of my suggestion is going to be to those of you who still have a cycle is to carve out time and space when you're bleeding because your good ideas need a deep well of I want to say confidence or love or stamina a combination of all of those things.

And menstruation is the time when you tap into that inner wellspring. And when your ideas are resourced, when they grow roots and they find, yes, they become really strong within you and you feel the possibility of you being able to fulfill them. And I think, you know, without that sort of sense of confidence or belief, it's very hard to do anything. And menstruation really gives that to you if you take time out.

So that would be my suggestion. Thank you so much. And thank you for everything you've shared. This has been so rich. And I want to end by saying congratulations that you've went through all of these phases of the creative process, that you did it, that you completed this hero's journey, and you've handed in the manuscript. Congratulations. It's amazing. Thank you so much, Sophie. Now all we've got to do is get through the next few months of feedback I'm the publisher we haven't had the publishers so wish us well in fact it's going to yes it's going to happen in a few days so it's slightly nail-biting to hear what I actually think of the manuscript good luck good luck thank you Good luck. Good luck. Thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today and listening to the menstruality podcast from Red School. Please subscribe and follow wherever you listen to podcasts, and it'll really help us to

reach more people if you could leave us a review. And if you'd like to explore how to activate your unique form of leadership through menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause, you can visit menstrualityleadership.com. All right, see you next week. And until then, keep living life by your own brilliant rhythm.