The Menstruality Podcast - How Menstrualism Can Birth Social & Environmental Change (Kate Shepherd Cohen)

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Are you a menstrualist? Do you want to create a world where we all prioritise the menstrual cycle? Would you like to know how to work with your cycle to enhance your work as a changemaker? Today’s guest is spear-heading the menstrualism movement. Kate Shepherd Cohen is a menstrual health pioneer, an author, activist, climate campaigner and CEO of a health tech start up. Since graduating from the Red School Menstruality Leadership Programme, she’s revolutionising menstrual healthcare in the UK, and is the first person in the world to offer a Menstrual Cycle Support programme on social prescription through the NHS.Our conversation moves from the practical details of how to create change as a menstrual health advocate, to the visionary exploration of menstrual dreaming as a key tool for all social and environmental change work. We explore:Kate’s recent TEDx talk: “Period Problems - and Why There Is Hope”. What a menstrualist is, why menstrualism is the most important movement of the 21st century, and how we can move through menstrual shame to claim our place in this social and cultural movement (whether we cycle or not). Why menstrual rest is the foundation for any menstruator wanting to birth meaningful change, and how on earth to get it, as well as how we can practice menstrual dreaming to receive visions that guide and inform our work. ---Registration is open for our 2022 Menstruality Leadership Programme. You can check it out here. https://www.redschool.net/menstruality-leadership-programme-2022---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @red.school (https://www.instagram.com/red.school)Kate Shepherd Cohen: @kateshepherdcohen

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, it's great to have you back listening to the podcast today. I have a question for you. Are you a menstrualist? Do you want to create a world where we all prioritize the menstrual cycle?

And would you like to know how to work with your cycle to enhance your work as a change maker? If you do, then this is a great episode for you. And if you are a menstrualist, then this is absolutely the episode for you because today's guest is spearheading the menstrualism movement. Kate Shepard-Cohen is a menstrual health pioneer and author, activist, climate campaigner and CEO of a health tech startup. Since graduating from the Red School Menstruality Leadership Program, she's revolutionizing menstrual health care in the UK and she's actually the first person in the world to offer a menstrual cycle support program on social prescription through the NHS here in the UK. Our conversation dances from the practical details of how to create change as a menstrual health advocate to the visionary exploration of menstrual dreaming as a key tool for all

social and environmental change. We talk about Kate's recent TED talk, Period Problems and Why There's Hope, what a menstrualist is, why menstrualism is the most important movement of the 21st century and how we can each move through the menstrual shame that can hold us back to claim our place in this social and cultural movement, whether we cycle or not. We also talk about why menstrual rest is the foundation for any menstruator wanting to create meaningful change and how on earth to get it, as well as how we can practice menstrual dreaming to receive visions that guide and inform our work. Welcome Kate Shepard-Cohen to the menstruality podcast I've just had the most amazing morning experiencing your TED talk and I'm thrilled that we get this hour now to explore your work and your

world and all of the beauty that you're creating and we're going to start as we always do with a cycle check-in which was a key part of your TED talk, a part that I loved. So can you share with us what day of your cycle you're on and how it is for you? Hi Sophie, thank you so much for having me. I am day nine today and I've really got this sense of oh it's time to get to work. I've spent the last few days sort of just building up the resilience of trying it's that transition of trying to navigate the channeling that happens during my bleed of reaching out and discovering my calling. And there's always that kind of tumultuous bit over the last two days of thinking, oh, gosh, there's a lot to do. And yet today, day nine, I've got that resilience has sort of grown,

that outer layer, and I feel ready to get on with the work. Thank you I always love hearing about people's inner spring because that's the season that I feel the least connected to and I'm in it right now so I'm tuned in with you I'm day 10 I feel like I'm charged with with energy and I'm heading towards that sense of open expanse and possibility of summer. I'm curious, Kate, what day were you on when you did the TED Talk? So I was day six. How was that? Yeah, and as I sort of explained to the audience, I was tender. And I had this sense of renewal, but I definitely felt a tenderness and a vulnerability.

And I, you know, I knew that I was going to be around day four, day five, day six. I was praying that I wasn't going to be day one because I was really actually a bit concerned about that. But I, you know, I use the power of the cycle, I had about four or five weeks to prepare the talk. And I knew it was going to be coming up after my bleed. So I prepared everything. And for the three days, you know, day one to day three. So that was, you know, the week leading up the few days leading up to the talk talk itself I didn't do anything on it I put it away completely um so I prepared myself for that moment um yeah and but yeah that was it so I was I was tender but renewed I know that now obviously because that's how you started the talk you anchored it

in cycle awareness I'm on day six and then right towards the end of the talk you came back to it and said I'm on day six and that's as simple as this work is you know all it all begins with us tracking our cycles and knowing where we are um we are going to get into all of that where I'd love to start is sort of the big picture of what you would say today drives your passion for menstrual health, for menstrualism, as you call it. Where was it born and what's driving it for you today? Oh, I'm just going to feel into that question because it sort of reaches out, you know, almost I can feel a hand just reaching straight in there to my womb you know of um through the tummy through the tummy button into the womb because there's um a core

there that's there's pain you know there's pain um that pain for me uh manifested in lots of ways uh which I I kind of later felt as layers and layers of suffering that came out from my womb caused you know the the crippling period pain that just made me feel like you know completely worthless um that's the reverberated around my body that came out as rage um that affected everyone around me I was like a whirlwind um and I in a way I have clung on to that pain the pain is still there it's my power source actually um and what has been very interesting for me is to wade through the layers of suffering and heal those and then to really respect the the core of that pain and that is the driver in a way of being with that being okay with that and using that as the inspiration then to help others

to to wade through those that those layers of suffering and and and it, get rid of it, alleviate it, this menstrual suffering, so that we can sit in this place of pain. And, you know, actually, for me, I journey into that place of pain, because, you know, I do experience intense menstrual cramps. And I sort of journey into those, and just to be with them. And often that's where I, I'm able to somehow access almost like journey, journeying to the core of the earth and access the, like a sense of accessing the source. And then from there, I can somehow feel into, this is this is the next

journey for the next cycle of taking this through um and really I guess that's the source of compassion as well and it's compassion this this compassion is this being with the suffering of others and with the pain of others and that for me is that is my calling I suppose to take this work out into the world and help others and you know and just acting on that then every month taking that time to be with that and then going out you know this now this day nine of actually yes okay I'm I'm my my resources are up I'm ready to go out into the world and take this out and share it and make the world a better place hopefully you are doing that for sure. Could you say more about what that looks like for you to journey into the pain? Because I imagine a lot of the people listening can relate and they have their own experience of menstrual pain. And it sounds like an incredible alchemical process you're going into there. Could you walk us into it a bit yeah this has been the gift for me and in a way I never fully understood the the the phrase wild power I didn't understand it for for a long time actually um having you know what my wild power was and why Shani and Alexandra had you know that that was the title of their book. You know, there was a real intention there.

And it took me a while to discover what that was. You know, I'd understood the practice of menstrual cycle awareness through reading Wild Power, through integrating it into my life. What happened is after practicing MCA over many months you begin to realize that rest menstruation it's not something a switch you can just turn on and off and just put the rest of life behind and then that's it rest for me you know I discovered that it was a process of a real sort of winding down intentional conscience just winding down through the really from day 16 actually but you know particularly through the autumn

so that when that point that chamber of separation came I was prepared then to enter this point of complete surrender and in surrendering so really letting go of everything surrendering I was a a found that increasingly I was able to access this place of such exquisite rest that I could go about my daily activities and you know I've got three small children um you know so I I always laugh there because anyone with children knows that rest is almost funny. There is no leisure time as such. But there's an exquisite presence that comes through the void that then I could slip into my imagination this and give real permission for active dreaming and this active dreaming it's like I know I've described it to you before Sophie in the book club it's almost like going into Narnia because actually two minutes of sitting still is many lifetimes in the imagination and that place of I mean it's called the fetus state I know I've since sort of looked into it more intellectually

and it's I found that it's possible to slip into that place and then allow the subconscious whatever comes up allow it to so I might sit there and and I I would go in with a with a question often it's um often it tends to be you know how can I best serve the world and whatever comes up I just follow it and I'm quite a visual person and so I found so much so much wisdom in there that I can't always make sense of at the time it's almost absurd to describe it in a way what happens in there but ultimately it's a complete affirmation of my being and a sense of where to go next yeah actually Sophie I would say that one of the because we've just talked about pain and suffering one of the images that really came up for me in this sort of menstrual journeying that I do, this really stayed with me is, you know, and often I see things that are very archetypal, things from fairy tales, whatever the imagination conjures up,

I just allow it to be there. But I was experiencing really intense menstrual pain and so I journeyed in I imagined myself going in to my womb to the place of pain and there I saw a big bit of big standing stone a big piece of granite so you know quite um not smooth in any way but if you imagine you know the stones of aesbury or stonehenge you know you're sort of getting the idea of the scale of the stone and in this stone was a big sword so we're familiarity here of the sword and the stone. And I had a real sense that I needed to take this sword out of this big stone. And so I was pulling at it and I pulled the sword free. And there was a feeling that the sword was the source of the suffering. And that the stone itself was my menstrual pain.

And the sword I felt in this journey that I needed to go out and fight with this sword and defend myself and to stop this, all of this suffering and pain. But what I kind of realized is that I could bury the suffering. I buried the sword and I went back to the stone and somehow the stone itself had come alive. And the quartz in the granite was sparkling and it almost had a life of its own. And it was from that journey, and again, that was probably only about five minutes sitting there in the loo probably,

because I had this sort of epic vision. And it was from that, you know, this is probably a year ago that I suddenly kind of was able to distinguish the difference between pain and suffering. And that this pain was this source of power. That just gives you a little insight into this sense of tapping into the calling and getting a deeper message somehow through menstruation. Yes. Later on in our chat, I really want to come back to this because one of the things that you've shared with me is what's helped you to birth the movement that you're birthing. Is this menstrual dreaming? Is this menstrual rest? So we're going to loop back around to this. For now, I want to look into how you created this incredible pioneering NHS menstrual health

program you know you've spoken about your pain and one of the stats in your TED talk was that one in three menstruators have been diagnosed with some kind of menstrual dysfunction that's compromising their work or family or social life it takes eight years on average to diagnose endometriosis you know the state of play is is challenging at the moment for menstru know when i first um when i first met alexandra and shani and um i first heard about the practice of menstrual cycle awareness and for me you know like for so many of us it was so such a revelation such a penny drop moment of oh yeah that makes so much sense um and it had a name and almost immediately because of my experience my personal experience of having gone to the doctor and have been diagnosed so quickly with long-term depression you know in the in, in the scant moments that a GP has, that was the conclusion. And to

be diagnosed so quickly and to be prescribed antidepressants so quickly. And at that point, I had no idea that the symptoms I was experiencing were cyclical or related to my menstrual cycle in any way. And of course, as is often often the case the GP also didn't relate it to my cycle or ask me about my cycle so when I first heard about menstrual cycle awareness and the practice my first thought really was in a sort of sense of indignation and anger why on earth don't GPs know about this oh why don't they and as though that they they should all just know and actually that was the first like you know the that was the the slap from the Zen Buddhist master for me almost instantly that's what you're going to be doing you know because somebody nobody else is the GPs

aren't just going to learn about that and it almost surprises me how instantly I felt that. And of course, that's about, that's probably five years ago. And I've had children and things have happened in the meantime. But ultimately, it came almost instantly. And, and I first of all, just had a look to see if I could somehow create a menstrual cycle awareness course as some, you know, something that GPs might do, an extra course that they might do as part of their training. And then over time it sort of just didn't go away. It was just there and, you know,

I just sort of exploring it coming in and out. And then I suppose it's just the way the universe works isn't it um that's into my lap really almost uh fell on this opportunity where I was at a play group um and the father of a child who was there is really one of the pioneers of social prescribing. And it's down here in Cornwall where I live. And it's of course, it's now UK. And in fact, it's an international movement, social prescribing. And he was one of the early adopters. And of course, as soon as he started to talk to me,

I realized instantly that that would be the place to take menstrual cycle awareness that if doctors could prescribe this as a course um that would be just incredibly powerful for women and i could see his reaction he hadn't really thought about it um but said instantly too yeah it's extremely limited what we can offer patients at the moment it is medicine you know as soon as we've ruled out anything more sinister um it's you know pharma's the option um so yeah it was it's just really interesting how these things just you know it felt like it was just meant to be really um yeah and social prescribing i would just um to explain to those haven't come across it yet because it is a relatively new movement um social prescribing is giving gps and

actually any primary care professional so it might be the nurse it might be a mental health worker it could even be a school nurse in fact so social prescribing is giving them the opportunity of referring patients to a non-clinical activity in the community so you might have heard of it through particularly through addressing so what's called the social diseases of loneliness or obesity or vulnerability, frailty, sorry, in old age and prescribing an opportunity to, for example, for a walking group or a gardening group and things out in the community. so with um menstrual cycle support which is the organization that i've now founded this is the opportunity now to be prescribed a course in menstrual cycle you know in in charting your menstrual cycle and understanding it how long how is it going how long has it been active and what kind of results are you seeing so it started earlier this year and as I suppose all of us who practice menstrual cycle awareness know it's transformational so the participants that have been through the course and what's

been wonderful for me because I'm working down here in Cornwall initially. I'm in every GP surgery now in Cornwall. And there are lots of areas of real social and economic disadvantage. with individuals who come from a really wide ranging demographic, individuals who, you know, working on zero hours contracts, who are single parents who are living in poverty, and for them to have this opportunity to access this material. And they're also really suffering. You know, they've been they come through the GP. They're really at the point of either being in the medical system for a very long time or really suffering and just not knowing what to do. And it's really affecting their lives.

And, you know, for them, they're having that penny drop moment that Alexandra and Shani gifted to me and that's the real pleasure for me is seeing that in others this moment of just even simply learning about the seasons and the phases of the cycle ah right and understanding that charting doesn't have to just be for someone else because that's a big part of menstrual cycle support. What I offer is that this opportunity to be able to go to the doctor and be empowered because you've already got three months charting under your belt so actually to get there before you go to the doctor but many of them actually feel really inspired that by the fact that they're just charting for themselves not for anybody else not to try and necessarily get to a diagnosis but just to understand their own bodies for the first time. It's absolutely phenomenal I'm thrilled that it's having such a big impact in Cornwall and

my thought is how and when can this be rolled out across the whole country and then the whole world yeah it's a big calling it's um it's I I really feel that you know I'm actually again tuning into sort of day nine I'm feeling I I've got a sort of nervous rising energy there in my in my tummy of oh yeah it's being of being drawn out of that dream state of the the the idea of it and just and actually making it happen and and I feel the intensity of that calling and also stepping into a power of being a menstrual healer and taking on the suffering of others and really feeling that energy and feeling the responsibility of it. And I can tell you, it's not an easy thing to hold. But there's a momentum to this. There's a power that is beyond me, as we've talked about a little bit, about a sort of channeling here of the menstruality power, that it's happening. You know, it's rolled out across Cornwall.

I mean, actually, 100% of the participants in answer answer a bit more succinct answer to your last question 100% of participants have reported an increase in menstrual well-being I mean of course they have yeah that's not surprising to us really I think but it's wonderful to see the evidence because of working now in this field actually in more of a you know with the clinicians it's collecting this data now to say hey guys this works. Yeah that's where my wow came from I think I thought well okay no one can argue with that if it's having a hundred percent benefit rolling it out across the UK that it will pave the way for that for the expansion. It will and and your social prescribing is a growing movement um and uh those working in

this field and within the menstrual movement or menstrualism uh are we're we're wonderful allies for one another because um i was just so honored to talk to jane bennett uh in australia and social prescribing is a growing movement there too and you know there's a a real opportunity here for um for this work to reach those people who are suffering and and I think also the the huge opportunity is creating collecting that data to then further the research you know showing that it works and I think that's what's exciting about menstrual cycle support is offering that. I mean, quite, I suppose, in a way, it's just an introduction to the work, you know, for the people. It's very light touch. It really is the seasons and just checking in. You know, there's this that's that's the point. It's just the point of entry to it um but being able to offer that sort of exactly the same um course and framework and to collect that data is the thing that i think is just going to

is getting uh it's very exciting about for menstrual health and for the future of humanity yeah and the planet as you please talk about in the TED Talk. I'm thinking of people listening who might be GPs or are somehow connected to the NHS that might be thinking, oh, I really want to help. Like, what do you need? Is there anything that you need from the community to help this expansion happen? Oh, yeah. What do I need uh I mean I'd say anybody who's interested in this rolling this out um nationally um please get in touch with me I'd love to talk to you and see how this can be developed together and um it's it's it is happening it's it's it is going into gp surgeries it that's you know i i said this in my ted talk and i i mean it i mean i've said it now so i have to mean it but you know i i'm not going to stop until this is available in all the doctor surgeries in the uk um so that

everybody has access to this and menstrual health is on the agenda you know it's not actually on the agenda um clinically for a lot of um for actually most practices um and given the extent of the problems so one in three have been diagnosed but many have still been undiagnosed it needs to be up there on the agenda we need to be thinking we're talking about um you know the health and well-being of 50 of the population then menstrual health needs to be up there as a priority and you know part of what i'm doing is is getting it there um and recognize so anybody who's interested and certainly if you work in a GP surgery or work in a school yeah please get in touch and I'd love to chat to you further. Let's talk about what it means

to you to be a menstrualist I love this term I love the way you speak about it in the TED talk you spoke about how how many so many more people are becoming menstrualists, and that's what's fueling this movement and this momentum. You talked about the U.S. Women's Soccer Team who won the World Cup, and they attributed their success to planning their training around their cycles. There's this brilliant Oscar-winning film about menstruation. Harry and Meghan gave to a menstrual charity for their wedding. You know, this is, it's a movement that's rapidly expanding. Awareness is expanding. Activism is expanding. You say menstrualists are people who prioritize the menstrual cycle. Can you speak more about this vision, the vision that you have for the menstrualists are people who prioritize the menstrual cycle can you speak more about this

vision the vision that you have for the menstrualist movement yeah I menstrualism is a is a term that I've been playing around with um since I was 19 I'm 41 now. And menstrualism, it was a term that a dear friend, Alexis Burke and I, it was almost a joke back in the year 2000 at university. We were both studying together and we were studying, you know, a lot of the avant-garde movements, all of the isms and found that the feminine voice or the voice of women was sorely missing. Of course, this is not surprising, you know, the intellectual history, in fact, that we're still learning about in our curriculums is still very much based on male intellectual history. And so it was a bit of a joke. We were like, well, if we were going to start a movement what would we call it haha what about menstrualism and we were playing on the taboo there um that was still a time where um none of us talked about our periods at all of course we didn't we um everyone

thought we were very you know how witty haha mentors all they're talking about periods little did i know that actually by the year 2000 a menstrual movement was still very much underway that some people have been working developing and thinking and prioritizing the menstrual cycle for a good 30 years or more you know really since the 70s was when you know that we first started seeing seeing menstruation spoken about uh with intrigue in terms of how how it impacts on life um from um are you there god it's me margaret by judy bloom was published in 1970 um you know i think that's influenced a whole generation of menstrualists actually because we all probably read that in our teens and Germaine Greer of course in the female eunuch

she talked about you know hey you're not emancipated unless you're actually willing to taste your menstrual blood you know it's this first kind of hey there's something about menstruation and we're not all talking about. And that's, you know, 1970. So I was playing around with this phrase menstrualism. And actually, then over the years, because I was suffering with my periods every so often, and I guess at that time, what I didn't realize was it was my calling, shouting at me, but I didn't sort of recognize it was, I kept thinking, Oh, I think I should sort of talk about menstrualism but of course I'd have to do it anonymously because no one would oh I'm not actually going

to talk about periods in public um uh and now of course I talk about them to anyone and everyone who'll listen um and and I think when I first um you know when I first my consciousness became aware of my menstrual cycle and I began researching it and just reading as much as I could about it um I realized that there was this movement I said god there it is menstrualism is actually a thing. And it's taken me a number of years to really just to build the confidence to just come out and say, hey, guys, this is an actual movement happening. It's a social movement. It's a cultural trend. It's an evolution of feminism. Menstrualism is happening and um I believe strongly in giving things a name um I feel the menstrual movement you know let's give it its place in history let's put it and alongside the isms of um of our of our past and our present um it's happening and and I of course I fully believe it has the power to change the world I think it's the most important movement of the 21st century because with each and every menstrual cycle we can learn to live sustainably um we can ease the suffering that is impacting not just

ourselves but our children our work we can central can centralize menstruators and we can prioritize the menstrual cycle. So I kind of have this feeling, you know, very much. I gradually just want to step into my power. I am a menstrualist. I prioritize the menstrual cycle in everything I do. My husband is a menstrualist because he prioritises the menstrual cycle. In our house, the menstrual cycle is prioritised. I'd like to see it prioritised in the whole of society. Do you feel stirred listening to this? I know I did.

Do you know secretly or overtly that you are a menstrualist? If you answered yes, we invite you to visit menstrualityleadership.com where you can find out more about the world's first leadership training designed for pioneers, troublemakers, culture shifters and creatives to realize your full authority and leadership through the power of the menstrual cycle we're thrilled to include kate in our community of incredible graduates of the program registration is now open for our next round we'd love to have you with us you can find out more at menstrualityleadership.com. I've got shivers. I'm thrilled. I'm a menstrualist right with you.

And I love the way that you've named it. It feels so clear. I feel so potent. And I also love that it was swimming around in your consciousness so long ago, you know, and that your calling was kind of tickling you and toying with you right back then. And it's taking you on this journey. I'd love to hear there's so many questions I want to ask you. But just briefly, you know, you mentioned that you were in a place where you didn't want to talk about periods to anyone. And now here you are today, doing your TED talk talking to me claiming I am a menstrualist could you point to a couple of the things that you see helped to sort of shepherd you through shepherd Cohen to shepherd you through that um that shame that was holding

you back yeah that's such a powerful question because I still grapple with that shame. You know, there's still a self-doubt in me. I still, you know, when I was thinking about writing the TED, you know, what I would say in the TED talk, I still had a voice. The critic, good old critic, said, are you sure you want to like this is your life's work that you actually want to talk about period is that you now are you like you talking about periods that your thing um and yeah we feel it that shame it's not easy to shake off um the taboo is still there um uh there's definitely a feeling of you know persecution uh over over many you know, over hundreds of years. You know, with this at its heart, you know, this power of the menstrual cycle that we carry. Oh, yeah, I'm just sort of feeling into what were the steps. I mean, I definitely feel, you know, when I discovered this movement that was there and that had been, you know, that I, you know, initially like, wow, I've discovered a movement.

And of course, you currently realize that a movement is there are lots of people working in this. And how wonderful. These are the allies. They've been working on it for a while. I'm standing on the shoulders of giantesses here because I'm giants, because that's how I've been able to walk, you know very much this feeling that yes um there are people out there who are really pioneering things the menstrualists are really doing things um that we are really inspired by but equally i'm discovering more and more that people are just more willing to talk about their period in front of others you know people are thinking about the the products that they use and conscientiously making making a change and so actually thinking about the menstrual cycle and it's because of those you know it's that this is the power this is the momentum of the movement of menstrualism you know each and every

one of us we can you know got this opportunity to step into this power as menstrualists and that's why I feel naming it is so important because there are lots of us and there are more and more every day so that's how the shame I can is there but I have the confidence to just sort of leave it at the door. So somewhere along this process you joined the red school menstruality leadership program which was probably back then called the apprenticeship i'd love to hear how that supported you in this work how it helped you to to bring this into reality uh i mean it's been life-changing for me and now the work that I've learned of course is is hopefully life-changing for for many more too you know that those that I now work with um you know having the

permission from um and the blessing from Alexandra and Shani to take this work out into the world has, again, I mean, gosh, you know, that's how it is that it's the practice itself. My goodness. I remember sitting in the room because, of course, back then we we did it face to face as a workshop. And there were a lot of us in that room. I think there were about 50, maybe 60 people in the room listening to Alexandra and Sharni speaking and you could not hear you know you could not hear I can't think of the expression a pin drop I was like a raindrop dropping outside if you cannot hear a pin drop and I felt like because the red score and I honestly felt I was experiencing something so powerful so special I felt like I was standing like at the Parthenon and listening to Socrates talking like I was hearing this huge wisdom for the world and finally it was speaking to me in a way no other wisdom has spoken to me before. And, and, and again, giving things a name, naming the void, naming this ability to slip into menstrual dreaming, that it's a thing, you know, because actually, there have been there were times in the past,

where I felt like I was slipping into psychosis, you know, because I was having these visual visions, but not really knowing if I was going mad or not so to really naming menstrual gaslighting my goodness Red School have gifted us all with so much and this this whole new lexicon they've birthed it into being so that we can name things and give them the power that they deserve and we can share them then with others. It's been my everything and I'm eternally grateful. Let's come back to this menstrual dreaming because what I really want to explore is what has helped you to sustain this momentum and do this incredible work I know there are people listening there are people on our every year on our MLP that have they felt

this calling and they know they're here to bring something through that has a big impact that's able to alleviate suffering to to support people, to transform the state of play in our world. And I know that you credit menstrual dreaming and menstrual rest as one of the main things that supported you to be able to be one of the people who's really birthing this movement. What does it mean to you to be able to drop and rest when you bleed and how this is a big conversation we could talk about it for days but how do you there's some key ways that you see that it supported you in this work I feel that you know the charting knowing where I was every day um yeah very much that is the starting point

just to to end the menstrual suffering and sharing that day then with others and it becomes then the day there's no becomes you know day one day 28 day 16 there doesn't there's no there's no well I became increasingly that there wasn't baggage attached to those days there wasn't the shame and then explaining it to others around me I could they could then support me with those days without me again feeling a sense of shame oh sorry I'm all sorry I'm day 27 you know I'm day 27 and and being able to share that and have the support of the support of my children my gosh they're incredible they really understand the the different certainly the different seasons um and being able to then you know I designed my whole life around it so that my daughter's seventh birthday, you know, some things are immovable, of course.

My daughter's seventh birthday came on my day two. So, of course, I had already prepared things beforehand and had managed to say, well, we're going to have just some time at home and we lit the fire and actually we did things around around my cycle but that meant that all of us enjoyed it as opposed to setting me off on some kind I mean it would have just been disastrous if I tried to do um huge amounts that I might have done in my summer. And of course we had a birthday party for her, but I had it the week afterwards and she understood that. She was like, oh yeah, mummy, yeah, let's do it in your springtime. She really, she really got it and was supportive. And I realised how privileged I am to have this support from others to allow me to drop into that place um particularly from you know from my husband um but I also do you know I menstrual cycle

awareness has in the past by some been criticized which I you know I uh hugely defend uh that it's only for the privileged and that this rest this idea of rest well that's only for the privileged um I I recognize my own privilege but I also work with many women who don't have that support of a partner they're single parents they can't move their work which I can because I'm you know know, I run my own organisation. And they have to go to work. But what they have found is they can shift gears so that they can access that space. And then once they start to do it, of course,

that 1% that Redskull talk about in their wisdom, they are then able to kind of again without the shame actually approach their employer because many of them are have actually got diagnosed you know what is known as menstrual dysfunction so it's discrimination not to support them at work um i'm just kind of wanting to feel into this question a bit more, because that's all the kind of practical stuff, the support. But the actual entry for me into this dream space. Sometimes if I've been busier than other times, I need a bit of prompting to enter this dream space you know often a bath will just do it for me I can just go in the bath and that's enough but other times my mind is busy and there hasn't

been complete surrender there and so I will just use quite a tried and tested sort of journeying tool of imagining myself going into, I imagine a tree, for example, a hollow tree. And I imagine myself walking towards the tree and getting right inside it. And I might just sit there in the darkness in the tree and begin to, what's it smell like? What does it feel like and suddenly I can then I'm just sort of dropping into this space hang on is there someone else sitting with me here uh yeah no just sitting here alone and it can feel like I'm almost in there for hours in this dark tree and of course again it's this is the Narnia aspect it's not ours at all it's just a few minutes and then an opening might just appear on the other side of the tree and that's where I can

then sort of climb out and I then just start to explore the landscape of my imagination giving permission for what comes up so if something sort of flashes up my rational mind might say yeah well you just saw that on tv earlier of course of course you're seeing like a big rainbow bird or whatever it might be yeah of course um but i'm saying again saying well hang on of all the things my mind could have drawn you know pulled out that's what's come why is it here let, let's go with this, let's go with this. So, you know, it's kind of allowing the full permission and using that kind of portal trick.

And I've also tried, you know, again, if I'm very busy, I do find that just listening to shamanic drumming really helps just to slip into that space, just to keep the focus. It sounds like a key ingredient is trust, is a commitment to trusting yourself and to trusting the process, you know, like that moment with the big rainbow bird, being able to turn to the critical voice and say let's see you know let's go with it that feels like a really powerful ingredient because that could spin someone back up and out of the dreaming moment that's right yeah and you can of course you can just keep staying with it and just allowing just just trusting and allowing. And it's just dreaming.

You know, there's not really, you know, as I say, I like to go in with an intention and see what comes out. But really, it's just a state of utter being. And for me, incredibly restful. I feel so rested after that. You know, and originally when I first sort of tried to do, you know, imposed menstrual rest on my life. And of course, what I'm about to say also works, too. And it's finding your own personal way of resting. You know, but initially I tried things like perhaps I just sit and just watch TV all day.

And, you know, that for me, actually actually I wasn't finding myself feeling very rested uh you know so it took practice and that's the beauty of course with the with the cycle is that we keep getting this opportunity to practice um what is restful for us and for me I found this this sense of menstrual dreaming is is the wild power for me being out in nature has always really helped sitting down somewhere and focusing on say you know I live by a really beautiful river watching the water move can slow my mind down from the fast-paced daily movement more into that dreaming space that's always really helped me that has that been a portal for you as well yeah definitely and actually I find that if I'm in a it's really wonderful because the landscape

plays such a big part in the menstrual dreaming um I live by the sea so the sea features you know so much in in this in the menstrual dreaming but I have noticed that if I've spent time in other landscapes then that can feature too and you know recalling landscapes from my past and so yeah nature and the forces of nature is a big part of the menstrual dreaming so actually getting out in nature is a wonderful way of of really easing into that yeah absolutely absolutely I love the way how earlier you said and that vision probably happened on the loo what this could look like for someone who like you're a mum of three you have so much going on in your world I imagine what it could look like for some is they get 10-15 minutes in the bath or you know just to sit in the toilet for five five ten minutes

and breathe and a vision could come then if the conditions have been set up for it maybe yeah that's that's what I believe and yeah there's this I've learned as well as it is important to stay grounded you know with this we're exploring you know the imagination and so you know I always have a um if I'm you know I do it intentionally and so um I I do always try and have like for me a cup of herbal tea it's just a really lovely way and I'll sort of keep sipping that because it's quite easy to sort of get a bit lost and actually what I tend to do anyway is that because I only have these tiny moments um of this of this time to do the journey and because of family life um you know I will sort of I'll go in there and I'm exploring

and then my time is up so I just kind of leave myself in that space I'll make sure I'm in a safe spot um and then I'll go back to her normal life as such, back to that dimension, the real dimension. And but what I'll do is over the three days of my bleed, I keep coming back. So I can actually just gently put it away, make sure everything is safe in there, because sometimes things come up that don't feel comfortable at all. You know, that's the healing going on. But just make sure and leave myself safe and then you know next time I get the chance to go back into the loo with my cup of tea I'll uh I'll re-enter and I'll pick it up where I left off and then by the end of my say three days of bleeding um I'll make sure then I leave you know this is my experience of it I sort of leave myself again and I know I you know I step away from it come back into my body pat myself down

that's it now for the month and interestingly at the you know the next month I quite often tend to pick it up from where I left it even though I've completely forgotten about it and you know it's just been like life has taken over it's powerful stuff let's do a whole episode on this. Oh, yes, please. Menstrual dreaming, for sure, because just these little hints are so huge. In closing, can we just briefly look at, I don't know how we're going to do this briefly, but let's try, at how to translate what we see into,

you know, as we move through the chambers of separation with sorry the chambers of menstruation which alexander and shani speak about in wild power as we move through and we move through into um clarity and visioning visioning and clarity how to translate these mystical thing these rainbow birds these like diving whales these ancient old trees that we connect with and speak with how to how to bring that wisdom through into something that looks like an action we can take in the quote-unquote real world that's the beauty of that final chamber isn't it the clarity and direction because somehow it just went right that's what I need to do for the next month

or that's what I need to do in you know as a bigger vision um and so I I'm not even sure how that sort of works but what I would say is that overall by having that rest there's just a huge soul affirmation of what's the you know of what is happening and there's a huge kind of sense of oh my gosh I can I can do this I can take menstrual cycle support into every GP surgery in the country you know because as the cycle comes around of course the critic can come in um but then somehow that menstrual rest has just come out because you've just been kind of whoa just powered up recharged with some kind of incredible power which is the power of menstruality and actually something i really uh wanted to to say sophie is that you know a movement is not easily defined a

movement is many many people all kind of suddenly sort of attracted and moving by the same momentum and power in this case you know for me it's this prioritization of the menstrual cycle and the journey from menarche to menopause and beyond. And, you know, I've always called this menstrualism. You know, this is the overarching ism of cultural history. And menstruality, for me, if menstrualism was the uh the body and and perhaps the head menstruality is the heart it's the soul it's the womb space you know it's the stuff it's that field of of consciousness um that is is kind of really driving it this this this this channeling and menstrualism is kind of the description of the for me this umbrella description of the entire movement and you know

the menstruality movements uh which i love you know this is the movement here for me which is where people like me are taking this work of of understanding the power of every day in the cycle and kind of turning it into leadership in a way of for example like me taking it into the nhs um or all the many incredible ways um that uh other menstrualists as i call them are taking that menstruality work this understanding of the power and the energies of the cycle and they're translating that into um various uh work and life skills um you know i do notice in menstrualism the entire movement you know although menstruality kind of feel it's powering it not everybody has yet tapped into that necessarily um you know the the the man who um the scientist chinese scientist who discovered stem cells in menstrual blood um was not tracking uh you know wasn't didn't have a

menstrual cycle himself and that you know tracking the cycle wasn't part of of where he was at for prioritizing the menstrual cycle the huge menstrual hygiene movement in the global south is is driven at the moment by you know really addressing period poverty and not necessarily um yet thinking about the power of the energy through the cycle um and and i love this you know i love the the complexity and the depth depth of menstrualism and my goodness you know the head without the heart without the soul I'm not sure it would be a movement at all ah Kate this has been so inspiring I really respect the way that you have turned towards the pain and the complexity of this whole menstrual world and how you've been able to alchemize through your own discipline and trust

of your own process and your own cycle to alchemize this pain into something so meaningful and transformative and impactful in the world and I wish you every every single success in your continued mission to roll this out across the UK and this is anything I and we can do to support you we are here um is there anything that you'd love to share as a sort of final word a golden nugget today oh I'm just kind of oh feeling the you know that rising energy of day nine again and um and grateful to you and to Redskull and anyone listening and that we're in it together uh that's that's our power and that's why now on day nine I feel feel, you know, I can get to this work. So thank you.

Thank you so much for being with us today and listening to the menstruality podcast from Red School. Please subscribe and follow wherever you listen to podcasts. And it'll really help us to reach more people if you could leave us a review and if you'd like to explore how to activate your unique form of leadership through menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause you can visit menstrualityleadership.com all right see you next week and until then keep living life by your own brilliant rhythm