The Menstruality Podcast - How to Create a Positive Menstrual Culture (Jane Bennett)

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Whether you’re a coach or educator who is working in the menstruality field, or you’re guiding a young menstruator in your life as they experience their first period, or you simply want to deepen your connection to your own cycle, you’re likely to encounter menstrual shame in yourself and others…In today’s episode, we speak with one of the original pioneers in the menstruality field, founder of the Chalice Foundation and a Celebration Day for Girls, Jane Bennett about how to navigate this shame, so we can dignify the cycle and work together to create a menstrually positive world. We explore:How Jane learned to read her cycle in her 20s, got empowered to manage her cyclic wellbeing, and how this has positively impacted her life post menopause. What Jane learned from gathering the stories and experiences of over 3000 women and girls about current attitudes to the menstrual cycle to write her book About Bloody Time: The Menstrual Revolution We Have to Have.How can we each work in our own unique way to heal the menstrual taboo and play our role in the menstrual revolution. ---Registration is open for our 2022 Menstruality Leadership Programme. You can check it out here: https://www.redschool.net/menstruality-leadership-programme-2022---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @red.school (https://www.instagram.com/red.school)

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hi there, welcome back to the Menstruality Podcast. Today I'm talking with someone who has literally decades of experience, 40 years experience in the menstruality field. Jane

Bennett, many of you will know her, she's the founder of A Celebration Day for Girls and of the Chalice Foundation. She's a social worker, a researcher, a writer, an educator and whether you're a coach or an educator who's working in the menstruality field or you're guiding a young menstruator in your life as they experience their first period or maybe you simply want to deepen your connection to your own cycle, you're likely on the way to encounter menstrual shame in yourself and others. And Jane has just written an amazing book, recently written an amazing book about bloody time, the menstrual revolution we have to have,

where she gathered the stories and experiences of over 3000 menstruators to de-stigmatize the menstrual cycle, revolutionize menstrual culture, and transform our whole society. And in this conversation, we explore how we can each work in our own unique way to heal the menstrual taboo and to play our own role in this menstrual revolution. So Jane, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the menstruality podcast. We always begin with a cycle check-in and of course you're in the post-menopause phase of your life right now. I'd love to ask how, if, and how you're connecting with your cyclicity in this phase of your life. Well, I just want to say it's delightful to be here with you, Sophie, and, you know, talking about my favourite subjects. So really nice to be here.

I figure I'd have to do sort of a bit more careful maths but I think I'm about day 6,000 now. It's been 13 or so years since I've last had a period and in my last year I had just two you know pretty small periods. So as far as I would as far as my cyclicity i would say you know there's there's been a lot of change over those over those years since menopause and i you know i i feel particularly particularly well and particularly strong uh at at this point of course you know aging does bring its certain amount of health challenges but but really um pretty good and i think pretty good for me at this point but i do think that for the years of practicing menstrual cycle awareness and tuning into my cycle are really paying off in spades now it really helped me to tune into my needs,

to respect my vulnerabilities, just to really fine-tune that awareness. So now that's, of course, I still need to practice that on a daily and a regular basis, but I already have the muscle for it if you like and uh you know i'm enormously grateful for that so the as far as being in a cycle it's more about um because obviously there aren't such strong hormonal you know changes on a you know monthly basis um so it's more about you know tuning into what needs to happen now what where am i at now where

do i when do i push when do i pull back uh when do i need to slow down when do i need to slow down? When do I need to, you know, take more risk and put myself out there more? All of those things. And as I said, I think the muscle is there for that now. And I'm really glad for all the years I practiced menstrual cycle awareness. That's so beautiful to hear because obviously there aren't that many people on the planet who have had many, many years of practicing cycle awareness before menopause and then have had many years post menopause to experience the benefit of it. So you're such a leader in this way. And it's beautiful to hear you speak about this. I wasn't going to go in this direction, but I feel really moved because I imagine there are many people listening who are in the later years of their cycling years. Would you be able to speak about how to connect with your cycle to prepare for life post menopause?

You know, if you could pull on some of those threads around, you know, tuning into your needs and respecting your vulnerabilities. There are many layers to this question and for all the years i sort of discovered menstrual cycle awareness really in in the form of fertility awareness in my mid-20s and from my mid-20s until i had passed through and completed menopause, you know, I was still discovering things. I was still discovering layers. And so it is a, it's a practice of awareness. It's a practice of attention with kindness,

with gentleness, with compassion. And that grew also over that time. I didn't start with all of that on board. I think, and I think this is, you know, culturally, you know, generally we don't have that. For many of us, either in a spoken way sometimes or many times unspoken, we're taught to, you know, rough ride over our cycle to ignore our needs and to act like we're the same every day.

And sometimes that's sometimes, you know, for a lot of women, that's really hard. We're really pushing against what we need, particularly at certain times of the month. So to gently unravel that and to gently be able to respect our needs and and find ways that work for us and we and and work for us as things change also as we know you know every every period's different every cycle's different as we start to head into um perimenopause you know there's there's

years of change there before we actually stop having a period so you know it's it's it's such a practice of paying attention and awareness um and listening to ourselves and we may not always be able to do everything we'd love to do but just being able to look at well how can I care for myself today how do I need to take a break now or you know what what what can I put in place to to receive help from the people around me uh so this is a it's an ongoing practice. Thank you. I love that question. How can I care for myself today?

That's an excellent addition to anyone's daily cycle check-in practice. Okay, I'm on Davis. This is what I'm feeling. And how can I care for myself today? Beautiful. So you've been working in this field for literally for decades. I'd love to hear what inspired you in a world which wasn't at all interested really in the menstrual cycle. What inspired you to focus on this for your career and your life path?

And I'd also love to hear what is continuing to inspire you now. It could be a very long story, Sophie, but I'll try and just pick out the highlights. So as I mentioned already, I first got into menstrual cycle awareness through the same coin. I had had a probably a fairly standard journey for a heterosexual with contraception in my late teens and early 20s. I had been on the pill a couple of times. I'd had an IUD, neither of which I was felt great about for various reasons I had a lot of pain with an IUD and just had that discomfort of I've got you know an uncomfortable device inside me and and then with the pill I even though I was I was really very young you, barely an adult when I sort of had my first experience of the pill. And even then I was aware, I just didn't feel, I felt off center. I didn't feel like myself. And it interfered with a whole lot of things. But of course I was highly motivated to have,

to be using contraception and highly motivated to be able to explore a sexual relationship so um uh you know so there was that sort of tension really if you like uh and then um in my early 20s a friend uh put me oh she had been uh encouraged to try a diaphragm by her mum and uh and so I tried one too and I really liked the diaphragm because you know it's uh it's not it's not as invasive of course it's it's used inside the body but it's not as invasive in that I only needed to use it when I needed to use it and the rest of the time there was nothing chemical, nothing mechanical inside me and so I did really like that and then as I sort of headed towards my mid-20s, I came across the work of Francesca Naish who had put together a particular combination

of fertility awareness methods for contraception and also conception because of course once you know can read your body and know when you're fertile you can use it either way so contraception was still what I was needing then and with the encouragement of a new boyfriend who was also really interested in finding out more and you know using these this method together we went to see Francesca in those days it was the what was it the um uh you know mid 80s uh you know it was an audio tape and ronioed sheets and uh was all was all very hands-on and uh so went home from a session with her and I started checking mucus and temperature and other observations and charting those. And, you know, I was sort of highly motivated and found it all really fascinating. And within a short time, I was able to see,

okay, I can see a window of time then when I'm really clear that I'm not fertile, and a window of time then that I can see that I'm really not fertile. And so we're able to use those. And as the months passed, you know, we're able to extend those times. So I never felt like I was actually taking a risk, because it was so clear to me. And if there were any times where I wasn't sure, you know, there were times where I said, oh, I'm really fertile now. And if there were any sort of grey areas, I just wouldn't take a risk and we could use a barrier method at that time. So that was really exciting and motivating. And I was surprised by how clear those signs were because nothing up until that point had given me nothing in terms of information about contraception or information from health

professionals had had really had given me any indication that I could read and know my body well enough to make, you know, really confident choices about my fertility. So that was one, you know, one surprise. The second thing is that after a little while, the usefulness of these methods as far as making decisions about contraception is concerned. And, of course, that's incredibly useful. Just taking a sip of water here. Became the secondary, you know, benefit. And the primary became this, in a way, the veils that lifted, being able to really enter my cycle and read my cycle and understand,

you know, initially it was, you know, when I had headaches or when I had food cravings or when I had cramps, being able to really predict, oh, look that tends to happen or I'm getting a headache just two days before my period okay and being able to understand that and then know okay well I can mitigate that by by doing this for myself and really feeling very empowered about managing my cyclic well-being. So they're on quite a physical level, but then also on an emotional level, really understanding that there are very different, with the different hormonal profiles at different stages of my cycle, there'd be very different emotional and energetic, you know,

processes and profiles happening within me. And I just found that fascinating and incredibly useful as well. So that was my mid, that was sort of all happened in my mid-20s. And it was kind of like an epiphany for me that wow you know we all should have this we all should be really given this uh you know this training or this understanding and this knowledge uh it just seemed like such a fundamental and and empowering uh way to experience a menstrual cycle. So that really started me wanting to work in the field

and I then went ahead and trained with Francesca and started offering natural fertility management alongside her and we're, you know, decades later we're still doing some work together. But over a number of years that then led to um mothers particularly saying look this is the learning fertility awareness and and then saying well this has been great for us but what about our daughters how do we introduce them in a positive way and by that time I had a daughter too and uh so in 2000 in 2000 I created and first ran a program that's still running called Celebration Day for Girls so this is for girls 10 to 12 years old sometimes a little

older a little younger depending on what the mother feels she wants to do to really give a, you know, a positive preparation for periods. So I've sort of swung more to that area, particularly, you know, in the 22 years since then. And now we have, you know, we've trained women, we've got a team of trainers and we've trained women who are offering this in 27 countries. And it's so exciting to see how this works in different countries, in different languages, in different communities,

with different cultures and, you know, with permission from us for the facilitator to adapt it. But mostly it works pretty close to how it was first designed because this is a universal experience. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's an incredible body of work and legacy that you've created there, Jane, I would love to move towards talking about the shame and the taboo that can get in the way of this work expanding. And I want to look at it

through the lens of your brilliant book about bloody time. But before we do that, I'd love to ask you back in those earlier days, when you were exploring with Francesca around fertility awareness and when you were just setting up the celebration day for girls did you notice the shame and the stigma and the taboo and what was it that allowed you to keep going with your passion in the face of it I think I noticed um I noticed noticed the shame and the taboo quite early. And partly that was because when I when I learned natural fertility management, I, you know, I was so blown away, I thought, Oh, everyone needs to know this, you know, it's so fantastic. And, and, and yet, there was a lot of silence and a lot of, you know, people, it was there were there were a lot of silence and a lot of, you know, people,

there were a lot of blank, you know, blank responses really because we hadn't been taught to know our bodies, to trust our bodies, to honour our cycle, to even have language around our cycle to articulate that um so I think I noticed that very early on and and really in part uh celebration day for girls is a response to that because I also as a mother of a girl I I felt well why would we want to pass on a curse? Why would we want to pass this on? None of us are born with a sense of shame or taboo around menstruation or menstrual cycle.

And yet we breathe it in. We absorb it, so much of it even, you know, so much of it unconsciously. It's just in all those tiny responses we get from people or the the lack of the lack of communication and articulation about this incredibly common experience you know all of that gives the message that it's thatoo. And I guess I just saw, I just had my own experience and also the experience of other people, other women who were interested and came to learn it,

who had very similar experiences to me in terms of, oh, my goodness, this is amazing uh you know how empowered how empowering it is and how helpful in so many ways helpful for health and well-being and relationships and connection uh with ourselves so that's that's what really motivated me and i i learned over time I came and still am learning about all the subtleties of the menstrual shame and the taboo and the many different ways it will manifest so that I'm not put off by it. I guess I've learnt to hold space without, you know,

feeling like I want to go and hide under a rock too from the shame. It doesn't impact me. I think it's also why it's so important to create community for ourselves around this work because when we're surrounded by women and people with periods who are wanting to learn how to trust their bodies, how to do this practice of attention and who can feel the power of it. It's so motivating and supportive. You know, we hear all the time from people in our community, they say, am I really going to,

am I really going to work with periods? You know, like they can't quite believe, you know, am I going to become the period lady? Am I going to become the period person? And I've had it with the podcast too. You know, when I tell people that I run a podcast, I host a podcast and they say, what about? And I say, well, it's about conscious menopause and menstrual cycle awareness. And I very often get complete blanks or let's quickly change the conversation as if I've said you know a dirty word or there's just it's just so there's something so deeply ingrained in people that even to continue the conversation is is sort of painful which brings me to this brilliant book that you've created about bloody time which is an excellent title as well

could you share some of what you learned from writing about bloody time about the shame and the taboo around menstruation and how to alleviate it um i'm glad you like the title, Sophie. It took a long time. We had many, you know, many other draft titles. But once we hit upon that one and the subtitle is The Menstrual Revolution We Have to Have. So we still kind of love that. And I guess I'd been, by the time I started working on that book, and this book has been put out by the time I started working on that book and this book has been put out by uh the Victorian Women's Trust which is an organization

and not-for-profit in Victoria the state that I live in in Australia and uh which is a feminist organization and we took um before we had this title but we took the precursor to a group of us who were menstrual educators took this project to the Victorian Women's Trust hoping for their interest and their support and they wonderfully the the CEO and I think chairwoman of the board at the time became inflamed with the potential and really saw how neglected this whole field had been. So that was a sort of a really special moment, which I think was at the end of 2012, so 10 years ago now.

And I was involved in the very beginning and then not for a few years. And then I came back in for the last few years for the writing process and the pulling together of all the research. So one of the things that I really learnt is, you know, learnt anew really and of course you know keeping in mind I had been working as a menstrual educator for many years by that time is the we there was an online survey and there were in-person conversation groups around Victoria with girls and women of all ages and I would say at this point now normally we would say girls and other of all ages. And I would say at this point, now normally we would say girls and women and other menstruators. But at that time, I mean, that was, you know, nearly 10 years ago,

as far as we possibly know, everyone involved actually did identify as a girl or a woman. And we might word that all slightly differently now, but in the survey that was the assumption. Although people in comments were able to share certain experiences of their gender identity. So we did get some information about that. But that's just a little aside. But what I did get out of, and we had 3,460 respondents from 12 to 80,

but, of course, more grouped in the middle years and what I was really blown away by was the incredible diversity of experience so if someone is saying they had a difficult or a bad experience you know at menarche or growing up or with bullying around periods or sexism or misogyny around periods. You know, it's not just one thing. There were so many different ways that would manifest. Or for women who had, you know, really major health challenges with their menstrual cycle, you know, it manifested in many different ways, even if there was, you know, a number of them had the same medical label for what they

were experiencing so it was the the extraordinary diversity um and also the cultural diversity that we that we saw um so one of my real challenges in the sort of first you know six to 12 months was I just got, I just went down a very, very deep rabbit hole reading everybody's survey responses. And it was very hard to sort of pull back far enough to start to, you know, shape it and group it. Because I, I mean, obviously we needed to do that to be able to create something that was readable and, you know, to give an overall picture. And, of course, we have included in the book, you know, certain sort of quotes and stories from particular people because we still wanted that flavour. But it was, you know, I was so moved. I mean, some stories were funny.

Many were, you know, just deeply moving. And some were the story of how difficult it had been and what they had found that really made a difference and discovering, you know, the positive of the menstrual cycle and this intimacy with themselves, really, and others that still had such a struggle after the whole time, you know, the decades of having a cycle. And so it was very poignant, very moving, you know,

emotionally intense, I would say, at times. So that's just one part of that story. But your question was around what did I learn about the taboo? I obviously was already aware of the taboo, but we, you know, and I worked very closely with Karen Pickering, who is my co-author on this, and also Mary Crooks, who is the CEO of the Victorian Women's Trust. So there were many, many, many hours and days

of deep conversations between the three of us and others around us as well. So it was a, it was quite a team. You know, we had an advisory group that included Jane Hardwick-Collings. A number of your listeners would be aware of Jane's incredible work, Catherine Cunningham, Bindi Gross and others. And so really wrangling the features of the taboo, you know, the history of the taboo, the politics of the taboo, and really looking at, well, there's very little in the taboo

that is of benefit to very, very few people. Because if we think of taboos, you know, taboos generally across society, we have certain taboos that we would really support, like the incest taboo. You know, there's a logic to that on a whole lot of levels and we don't need to go deeply into that. So taboos in and of themselves aren't necessarily a bad thing.

But when we look at the menstrual taboo, it's so damaging and there's no balance with positives. The positives are so few and for so few people and then questionable, really. So we really wanted to unpack that very deeply so that it was so obvious that this is damaging for all of us individually, men, women, you know, people who, non-binary people, young people, old people, it's really a, you know, of no benefit and many harms. So I think in the process of writing,

that just simply became more and more and more starkly obvious and motivating to fight against, to do something about. If you're passionate about creating a positive menstrual culture in your business your work your family your community or in the world at large we invite you to visit wildpower.online where you can join our 2022 wild power immersion this is a six-week live online program guided by alexander and shani to reclaim the magic of the menstrual cycle by awakening the power of your inner seasons we start on february we start on february the 7th you can find out more at wildpower.online that's wildpower.online. That's wildpower.online.

So you have some beautiful writing on the Chalice Foundation website about what it looks like when we heal this taboo. So I'm just going to read this. When girls are fully supported to begin their cycling years and able to take for granted the means to take care for themselves the warmth and normality with which they are supported and educated and are able to approach the changes of their body with curiosity and pride and live their best life riding the rhythms each hormonal month and when menstruators and those experiencing menopause are able to access the support they need to care for themselves and live well without shame or anxiety or isolation then we can begin to frame an historic account of how we achieved menstrual equity across the world this is an exciting

vision i'd love to hear i'd love to explore in this second half of the conversation you know where we're headed with this menstrual equity what the fruits of a successful menstrual revolution look like and really how we can do the work to heal this taboo so could we start there what you learned from writing the book and from your this is a big question again and from your lifetime of work in this field what what can we do to begin to heal this taboo and I'm especially thinking of people who are working in this field well I think I think partly we need to see that the revolution is already well underway you know know, I'm enormously hopeful and it's gathering speed. Now, it would be true to say I probably live

in a particularly rarefied bubble in that I see these things, I hear these things, I'm sent information. So, you know, I'm probably more aware of what's going on than a lot of people, you know, in the general community. That said, you know, there are more either, you know, states or counties in the UK or areas of the world that are taking on things like, you know, providing free menstrual products in schools. Really thinking about how those very practical resources,

the number of organisations that now work on alleviating period poverty are, you know, actually in the thousands. Now, that doesn't mean it's all dealt with. But, you know, 20 years ago, who was doing that? There might have been a handful. So, you know, there's massive shift in that area. The awareness of things like, you know, that if there aren't, you know, and this is perhaps not so much in the UK or Australia, but other countries, if there aren't toilets for students to use in the school, once girls get to a stage where they're menstruating, they'll stop going to school because they can't safely can't uh safely um and privately manage their periods so um so there are people working on that now it's not all done and there's there's a lot of that yet to

happen but but really being there's much more conversation you know across the world that includes this there was a wonderful report that came out last year with a definition of menstrual health from a, you know, global group of academics. And I haven't got the link right in front of me or the exact title of it. But, you know, they did a really amazing job at defining menstrual health and not purely as a physical health, although that's really important too, but really looking at, you know, emotional, social, economic health as well.

And, you know, they did a really beautiful job. Maybe we can link to that in the, in the show notes. Yes, I'll email it to you, Sophie. Now, another, another area that's, that's really opening up is awareness about having either, either menstrual, menstrual menopausal or reproductive health, which includes those policies in workplaces and in organisations, you know, alongside other policies. And that's a growing field. I'd still say there's just a pointy end of that, but it's starting to be more and more of a conversation.

In fact, just before Christmas, Mary Crooks and I completed an e-book called Ourselves at Work, Creating a Positive Menstrual Culture in the Workplace, which gives some stories about where that's happening and the different ways that it's happening and and very very practical checklists you know things that can be uh considered and a template uh that they've used at the victorian women's trust which is also available on their website so this is this is currently free as a pdf or you can pay for a hard copy of this. So that's called Ourselves at Work. And the Victorian Women's Trust website is vwt.org.au. So it's just there to download. So what I'm seeing these days is that, you know,

as we know, the menstrual experience, and I include the, you know as we know the menstrual experience and i include the you know uh menopausal experience in that is happening wherever we are so so there's you know once upon a time it was all sort of locked away um something seen as you, you can't talk about it, you know, it's very, very secret. We would feel very isolated in that. But that's loosening up a lot. So we're starting to recognise, oh, you know, young people at school. So how is that for girls in sort of late primary? Do they have what they need? Do they have the information

that they need? You know, if they're experiencing any anxiety or any teasing or bullying around that, well, then the job of the school is not being done. How is that through secondary school? How is that in tertiary and other education education how is that in workplaces uh what supports are there in the home how do we how do we create a menstrually positive um culture in the home environment so there's this can happen in so many different ways beyond, as we spoke about earlier, our own journey of mental cycle awareness, our own attention to our own needs, which, of course, is there something that we can do to help make it easier, to help make it more comfortable, to help make our experience of our menstrual cycle more natural, more positive, more dignified and respected in all um so but there's a long way to go

uh but there's there's there's also you know really hopeful movement i think one of the things that's really exciting here is that in built within the cycle is everything we need to have the confidence and not everything we need but much of what we need to have the confidence and the power to go out and create change in the world when it comes to menstrual education because of the way our cycle each month initiates us into our into ourselves and brings us closer to our sense of purpose and calling which is exactly obviously what red school are teaching in with um alessandra shawnee's book wild power and our wild power immersion and it's very exciting that by getting getting closer and more intimate with our own cycles, we can be supporting ourselves to be

the leaders that we want to be in the field of menstrual equity and of expanding this awareness across the world. I find that thrilling. Absolutely. It is thrilling. When it comes to educating girls and young menstruators, you know, I'd love to have a whole other conversation with you about this because it's a big topic could you share some of the core things that we could help to share with those young people in our? I'm still learning about this. It's because the nature of shame generally and mental shame is, you know, it's deep and it shapeshifts and it manifests in so many different ways.

But I do feel, I'm just going to come sideways at answering your question, but as a menstrual educator and I'm imagining quite a number of people listening are menstrual educators in one way or another, is that I feel for young people it's really important that we also offer support and education and training for teachers, for wellbeing staff at schools, for youth workers, for parents, for health professionals, for sports coaches and so on. Because even if someone in those roles has had a menstrual cycle themselves,

that doesn't mean we're equipped to be able to teach in a sort of a positive menstrual culture and when i use that term it's more than it's so much more than than what i um call the you know the the pads and the plumbing so it's so much more than just the the the black line drawing version of the biology or how to use a pad, you know, both of which are really important. But, you know, it's to try to turn back the tide on shame and really help create shame resilience. It requires a very holistic approach.

And for young people, and my particular experience is with, say, 10 to 12-year-olds, but of course, you know, I have older children, older youth as well, and women, and men as well, is that, you know, we use a number of different approaches because different things will land for different people. As we know, there's, you know, different styles of learning, different ways that we learn best.

So I think it's really important to mix that up. In Celebration Day day for girls we use um storytelling we use craft uh we use you know we have we have tools for talking about you know how we feel about uh you know what what our uh feeling life is is telling us. We, you know, as I said, we tell stories. And there's also information about our bodies, but it's presented in its factual, but it's presented in a very positive way with joy and with a sense of awe and wonder,

which I think traditionally really hasn't been the case, if I remember back to the very minimal education I had around the menstrual cycle. And I think there's, you know, as you rightly said, Sophie, there's so many different ways we could go with this particular part of the conversation. But just one point I would like to make is that, and I think, is that traditionally we would speak about menstruation

from a reproductive point of view. So we might have someone, a teacher or someone explain um okay this is ovulation this is the the the egg uh this is a sperm or a swarm of sperm um conception pregnancy growth of baby and birth as as the the the main event and then oh if there's not a conception, then the lining of the uterus is released and we have a period. And that's the end of the story. So, you know, not untrue in a general sense, but it's missing so, so much. And so for a start, in uh in the developed world um most uh most women

and most menstruators uh 19 on average 99.5 percent of our ovulations will complete with a period. So what about all of that? Our body is going through this massive cycle of hormones that changes every part of our body. It changes how we use oxygen. It changes the viscosity of our blood. It changes the sharpness or otherwise of our sight. It changes the texture of our blood it changes the uh sharpness or otherwise of our sight it changes the texture of our skin it changes how we smell um how we actively smell ourselves and in the smelling other things and also how uh the the various aroma and scent that we are putting out

too and a whole list of things uh changes with different stages of the menstrual cycle so i think you know to me that way of understanding it's it's the purpose of the menstrual cycle is for reproduction um and the rest you know when we're not wanting it for that the rest is just mess and fuss and unnecessary and we can drug it away if we so choose. To me, that's a particularly unexamined leftover from patriarchy to only see it in those terms, only see it in the production of children. Whereas if we turn that around and see that this profound nature of women and others who menstruate, there's this cyclic life.

And as we explore through menstrual cycle awareness, this profound cyclic life, as you have so beautifully said, and I know that Alexandra and Shani so beautifully articulate. The intimacy with ourselves, the initiation every month into more and more deeply into who we are and our own power is such a massive potential that the cycle has. But only if we go there. We could spend all the years of having a cycle and and barely get a hint of that if we don't if we're not paying attention and so it does take that attention it takes that um curiosity and respect to actually uh start however we articulate it, you know, and people have been discovering this, you know, probably for as long as human beings have been around, with different ways of articulating it or different ways of understanding it or different ways of practicing that ritually.

But we can also miss it by ignoring it as best we can. I feel really profoundly moved listening to you. You know, I've got tears in my eyes and shivers because the way you're speaking is so beautiful. And it's like there's a there's a very small gateway to pass through into this whole world of that's really revolutionary for people who cycle and um yeah we just need to help as many people through that as possible I'm very moved especially by your work with girls I heard a story recently from someone who's going to be on the podcast soon a woman called Chelsea Von Chaz who's one of the people who's making great headway when it comes to ending period poverty

and she had an experience with a teacher when she was I think nine or ten because she started her period young she told this to a conference that I was, I was watching the video of, and the teacher said, when you start your period, you come to me and I'm going to help you through this. I'm going to show you what you need. This is exciting. And so she had somewhere safe to go. And because of that experience, it, it transformed her whole experience of cycling because of that one initial moment right at the beginning someone who spoke positively without shame with openness with with joy so it's it's such a pivotal time isn't it absolutely absolutely and and I do you know that's a such a lovely story to hear Sophie um and and how simple I mean that

was like a sentence or two but clearly for that teacher it came from a very real place um and my in my experience with uh with young people is that sometimes and and this is still the case in most places is that uh teachers will think oh still the case in most places, is that teachers will think, oh, well, you know, if they need something, they'll come and ask. And some will, some who are very confident and open will. But the ones who have absorbed and taken on a degree of the taboo or who feel, already feel ashamed of their body

or what's happening or have been told very explicitly that this is shameful, they're not going to come and ask for help. They're too mortified. And so they will be sitting in a classroom full of anxiety or if they haven't brought a menstrual product with them and their period starts, they'll be worrying about that or they might be using toilet paper and, of course,

that's not very secure, then they're going to spend the rest of the day worrying about leaking and just feeling, you know, profound shame because of that. Now, that doesn't work for having a positive experience of your body or the menstrual cycle or being able to focus on education. And so it's, you know, what I love about that story you told is that it doesn't take a lot to create that safe space. That's, oh, here's a trusted adult who I can go to, who's, you know, opened the door for me.

I can go and talk about this. And you can just feel the anxiety flow away. If we all had someone who would say that to us, that's cool. Yeah. So the challenging and beautiful truth that we're coming to here is that when it comes to creating a positive menstrual culture and healing the taboo and the shame that's in the way of that there is so much to do so there is so much to do and there is so much opportunity you know we've touched on all the work that needs to happen to end period poverty and to create menstrual equity there is

the academic study that's happening there's work on the workplace policy and you know big organizations now are reaching out to us and other organizations for training around around this which I find really exciting there's training teachers and health professionals who are with young girls and young menstruators. There's educating young menstruators. There's educating the world around the menstrual cycle and the power within the menstrual cycle. There's our own deep work to cultivate intimacy with our cycle and, you know, in so many other areas. This is it's a very exciting field to be to be working in and it's only growing and very quickly at the moment I'd love to ask you as as a leader and an elder in this movement how can

each of us step up to play our own role in this menstrual revolution? That's such a beautiful question. And I think the answer could be very complicated, but I actually think in truth it's actually very simple. So the first and primary and constant point is our own journey with our own cycle with our own cycle and our own from a health perspective and from our inner journey with ourselves, our spiritual journey. That's the core of it.

And really that's where the motivation comes from, I know, to want to share, to want to influence the world. And then it really depends on where you are in your life. So if you have a family, then it's how you manage that at home, what the conversations you have at home, how you create a positive menstrual culture at home, what the conversations you have at home, how you create a positive menstrual culture at home for yourself, with your partner, for your children and anyone else. I think that's really important. And for someone thinking about, well, how do I do that? What are the first simple steps?

Always look for the low hanging fruit. Do you, for me, so I'm postmenopausal. I haven't needed, you know, any menstrual products for a long time. And, you know, for many years I used reusable products anyway. But I have menstrual products in the toilet in my house and a bin so that if someone comes who needs one it's right there it's very visible they can take care of themselves and and and feel secure without any anxiety so that that's easy you know there are simple things like that. And it's noticing overcoming the menstrual taboo or menstrual shame is not something we can just decide, okay, I'm done with that. It manifests in many ways and often very sneaky ways. So, you know, we might notice how do I feel when, you know, I'm going through the supermarket queue and I have pads or tampons?

You know, do I only need to get some tampons but I grab other stuff just to kind of diminish the impact of these products that I'm going to put inside my vagina? You know what I mean? And it's not to judge that you know we we we're in the this moment in history and in the society we're in and we're all part of that it's to notice it and notice okay um i just want to pay attention to that do i want to do something differently am i going to push my comfort zone a little bit?

Am I going to practice, you know, will I today or someday soon practice going through the checkout with just my tampons that I need? And working on feeling sort of proud and confident about that. I mean, that's one little example. So it's how, it's our awareness is such a powerful thing, Sophie. And as we, you know, with compassion and gentleness, but also honesty, by being, by practising that awareness. Another example would be, you know, in the workplace. So it may or may not be your place to, you know, change policies overnight, but it may be that you can have conversations

or maybe you notice that you hide your menstrual product when you're going to the toilet maybe you might decide not to do that or maybe instead of um making something up as to you know if you if you're having a a bad day with cramps um or pms instead of um making up some other excuse in verticommerce, why you need some time at home, or not to come to work, maybe you'll just be very upfront about that. I love the idea of imagine if you're in a phase of your cycle where you do feel especially creative and, and potent, say, I don't know, for some people, it's maybe day 14 or 15 and for some people it's maybe more into the in autumn to actually come to a meeting and say do you know I'm in the phase of

my cycle right now where I'm feeling really creative so I think I can take on this project that would be lovely to have the other end of that spectrum absolutely very cool very cool and that that's right because of course there are different different different qualities at different times and i think you know i i also would need to say that you know in some in in some workplaces uh someone may feel very you know safe enough to push those to start to push those edges and in other instances they may know they may feel like no I I don't feel calm I really don't feel comfortable doing that here so it's not to say we have to do it everywhere but it may be in your um sports club you might you might start to have

conversations I'll just tell you one little story that I think really illustrates this well. We had a woman come a couple of years ago and trained with us to offer Celebration Day for Girls, and she had for many years practised menstrual cycle awareness. So she was very aware of her own cycle. She was very comfortable in her self-care and, you know, asking for that and giving that to herself. But she said after doing our training, and part of it,

we really do look deeply into the nature of taboo and menstrual shame, she realised that she really did avoid talking about it in any sort of public setting so what she started to do if people ask say for instance what have you been doing uh she was starting to say oh well i've just been uh studying this course about uh you know running um positive menstrual education for girls and young people and their families and starting a conversation. And what she found is that in most cases, and this is with women and men, and in most cases people were,

they really welcomed that door opening to that conversation and wanted to know more and were fascinated. And what she realised is that we all have a culture where, you know, out of, in inverted commas, politeness, we don't bring it up. You know, we think, oh, well, I don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable or feel ashamed so I won't bring it up but what she actually realized is by pushing this this this you know in a way the taboo on conversation that we have is that most cases people were really interested and really very pleased to be invited into that conversation. So I think this is a way, and people will have

to judge every instance for themselves and, you know, where they feel this is the moment to do that and where it isn't, and that might be depending where they are in their cycle too. But just to play with those edges a bit and you know you might you might start to see there's an opening here i could say something here and share my experience here and uh so that's that's the informal side uh and the more formal side is maybe setting a goal of in my small business i want to uh you know actually actively put together a menstrual policy this year and trial that um and you know

and put that in with our other policies or i want to you know know, this week make sure we've got bins and menstrual products available in all the toilets. You know, there's usually some simple things that can actually make a big difference to people or get some training for yourself or other workers, how to support our, you know, the people we're supervising in a workplace with menstrual issues. Thank you, Jane. I'm, you know, there's so many practical examples there

of how we can each in just daily moments help to ease this taboo and heal it and create a positive menstrual culture. And I really want to thank you from on behalf of so many of us for breaking the ground here and paving the way for us to all now confidently carry on this work. Thank you for everything that you've done. Thank you for your courage. And thank you for the amazing body of work that you've created and the legacy that you've created. And thank you for having this conversation with us today. Thank you so much, Sophie. It's been delightful speaking with you. what a pleasure to listen to jane bennett i hope that you enjoyed it thank you for tuning in if you're loving the podcast please subscribe and leave us a review on apple podcasts it helps other

people to find the menstruality podcast and if you're feeling called to create a positive menstrual culture you can reclaim the power and the magic of your cycle by joining our wild power immersion it's six weeks you can explore it at wildpower.online and if you joined us recently for the wild power online retreat and you're feeling inspired to make this your year of menstrual cycle awareness, the Wild Power Immersion is the perfect next step to take your practice deeper, to understand the sacred tasks within each of your inner seasons and how they can help you to channel the full force of your cyclical intelligence. So that's at wildpower.online. Okay, that's it for this week.

Hope to see you next time and until then keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm