The Menstruality Podcast - How to Navigate PMDD and Pre-Menstrual Rage (Chloé Caldwell)

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

When author, Chloé Caldwell turned 31, her experience of her menstrual cycle changed. Her monthly outbursts of pre-menstrual rage and anxiety began to dominate her life and compromise her relationship. Compelled to understand the truth of what was happening to her, Chloé researched menstruation throughout history, read everything she could about PMS and was eventually diagnosed with premenstrual dysphoric disorder, PMDD.In this episode Chloé shares honestly, generously and vulnerably about her journey through PMDD, and how —along with proper treatment— the medicine of self-acceptance, self-compassion, and transcending shame were the ultimate keys to relief. We explore:- Chloé's searching, galvanizing memoir about PMDD and how we must bring a multi-layered approach to managing and healing PMDD. - PMDD and relationships - including practical tools and approaches to navigate PMDD with your partner, children or other loved ones. - The “Jekyll and Hyde” nature of PMDD, why it is referred to as werewolf week, and how cycle symptoms, including PMDD can be a gateway to knowing ourselves and accessing our wildness and ultimately, growing into a fuller version of ourselves.  ---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolChloé Caldwell: @chloeeeecaldwell - https://www.instagram.com/chloeeeecaldwell

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey, welcome back to the Menstruality Podcast. Thank you so much for being here, for tuning in and for listening today. This is a brilliant episode for anyone who's ever experienced premenstrual rage. I know I have. This was a fascinating conversation for me.

It's also for anyone who has experienced PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, or if you have someone in your life who has. So author Chloe Caldwell turned 31 and something happened and her experience of her menstrual cycle changed and she had these monthly outbursts of premenstrual rage and anxiety and they began to dominate her life and really compromise her relationships. So she went into researcher mode, she was compelled to figure out what was going on for her, she read everything she could about PMS and eventually, it took a long time, but eventually she was diagnosed with PMDD and in this episode it was amazing how generous and honest and vulnerable Chloe was about her journey with PMDD, about the treatment that she received, what worked, what

didn't and ultimately how the medicine of self-acceptance, self-compassion and transcending shame which is just key for so much healing but these were the ultimate keys to relief from PMDD for her. So we look at Chloe's amazing new memoir The Red Zone about PMDD which the observer calls a compulsively enjoyable empowering memoir and I agree I read it it's brilliant it's also incredibly funny and somehow she managed to make this topic this and this really difficult journey she's been through hilarious and she did a good job of that in this podcast too we also look at practical tools and approaches to managing PMDD with your partner your children your loved ones and we look at the Jekyll and Hyde nature of PMDD, why it is often referred

to as werewolf week and how ultimately PMDD and other psychosymptoms can be a gateway to knowing ourselves and to accessing our wildness. So let's get going with this brilliant episode with Chloe Caldwell. Chloe, welcome to the Menstruality Podcast. It's fantastic to be talking with you, especially after devouring today, a early edition of your book. How are you doing today? Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for for having me this is the first podcast I've done for this book and it's great that it's menstruality podcast it just it's a great fit uh so thank you for having me on yeah and thank you for this generous act that you've done of um sorry for for everyone listening if you can hear the drilling in the background the people to fix our

internet happen to come exactly the time that we're recording this so we're just gonna have to ride with the sounds but yeah Chloe thank you for this generous act of writing this book and sharing yourself so generously and vulnerably and your experience with PMDD. I want to get right in there from the beginning and talk about the early days when you realized that something wasn't right. You know, you talk about, I'll just read you a quote back from the book. Something wasn't right. Since I'd gotten into my thirties, my periods had become more severe. Why was it heightened? Why was I afraid of it? It was affecting my relationships and my ability to socialize. It had ruined my weekend away. This didn't feel just like PMS. It felt different. It felt dangerous. And you say, when I open a

notebook from this time, I find this, my moods are scaring me. Once a month, I have these massive outbursts. Can you talk about this early phase of how you began to understand that something wasn't right? Yeah, definitely. It's so funny to hear those words back to me. Thank you for reading that. It brings me back. Yeah, it's interesting for me. It was my early 30s. I mean, it was really when I turned 30, 31, that this began. And I think there's been sometimes a misunderstanding when I talk about PMDD or through the book where people think that I'm looking back at my whole life and thinking, oh, wow, I had all these outbursts in my, you know, I had this horrible PMS in my teens and my twenties. It wasn't that at all. I did have PMS some months

worse than others, but what I began to feel in my early thirties was so specific. It was a feeling I had never felt in my life. I felt, you know, they call it premenstrual dysphoric disorder and like dysphoria. That's such an interesting word, right? That's in the diagnosis. And that word really, really does describe some of those PMDD experiences because I felt like I wasn't real. And that was so scary. So when I began to notice all this, and I really, I don't know, I thought something was really wrong with me and with my hormones. But whenever I got

checked and blood work, everything looked fine. So to this day, I don't know what caused PMDD to rear its head at that time in my life, which is kind of interesting. You know, I mean, I think there's so many different factors to PMDD and I don't know if it was a hormone change that was happening in my early thirties. I mean, a lot of people, one thing I do say in the book is how PMDD has said that it, that it comes on during your reproductive years. And I know people can argue that your reproductive years are like when you're 25, 26, I would argue that it's getting a lot later for people. So for me, age 30 and 31 did feel like my reproductive years, whether that's, whether

that's right or it's wrong. That's what it felt like. I mean, you know, most of my friends had kids now at, you know, 33, 34. So I don't know if it had something to do with that. I don't know if it was situational because I did get in a serious relationship and that kicked up a lot. And I do think, I do know it was partly situational. Yeah. One of the things you say in the book is hang on, like, did I have PMDD before this, but I just didn't have that mirror. I don't know if you use that word, but you didn't have the mirror of Tony to show you what was happening or to illuminate it so clearly. Yeah. I really wonder, but then again, and yes, I do do I do say that in the book then again

if I were having this PMDD outburst I would remember that because I would have had like huge blowouts with other people um yes with a friend or with a parent and I and I didn't it was really with Tony that you know they came on and I don't know, there's so much to it. I mean, I think in therapy at some point we were talking about once you feel safe with someone and the stakes are high. And I knew I really loved this person and wanted to marry this person. I think that was really scary for me. And it brought out immense fear and that fear was fine and manageable until the days before my period or the week you know the 10 days before my period so it's really it's kind of confusing to talk about because it is such a mystery but human bodies are a mystery right so I'm kind of glad that I never quote unquote figured it out. There wasn't a black and white response. It's not like I went to the doctor and they said, Oh, well, you know, you have

PCOS or you have, yeah, your testosterone is really, really high. You know, there wasn't, there was not an answer. Yeah. You say in the book, one misconception of PMDD is that it's a hormone imbalance, but it's not a hormone imbalance. It's an abnormal reaction to normal hormones. For people listening who might never have heard of it before, could you explain what PMDD is and how you might begin to know if it's impacting you? Yeah, the best way to know if it's impacting you is, is the tracking of the symptoms and yeah, premenstrual dysphoric disorder. Some people think it is caused by some kind of genetic kind of, I don't want to say deformity, genetic, something that some people have and some don't. Um, some people do get tested, which I, I actually never surprisingly, I never actually went as far as to do that. Um, I think because it wasn't cut and dry that it was a genetic predisposition. It was a maybe, right? So, but PMDD is basically, you'll know if you have it because it is not like, it's not teary PMS. It's not like, oh, I have cramps.

I'm going to watch a movie and eat ice cream. You know, it's, it is dangerous. It is dangerous in a lot of ways. For me, that manifested as paranoia, rage were my main symptoms. And yeah, it's not a hormonal imbalance. And there's so many different like contradictory things out there because people are actually still really still figuring it out. And I went to this, a conference called break the cycle, which had all kinds of doctors

and acupuncturists and all types of people that were talking about PMDD. And there there's so much conflicting research. But basically it can be anywhere after you ovulate until the time you get your period. And God, my heart goes out to the people that have it for two weeks because those people do exist. Yeah. And then your, your life is really stolen from you in a lot of ways. So anytime after ovulation up to your period, you have symptoms, rage, paranoia. For some people, it's crippling anxiety. What's interesting is I've read so many accounts of PMDD and of course they vary, of course, but it's also really surprising with how many of them are similar. It's like

varied similar experiences, which really blows my mind. But it's really, it's like you can't see reality anymore. And then what's different about it is when you get your period and the day that you bleed, it lifts. I used to think that PMS, this is so stupid. I used to think when I was a teenager, that PMS was something that happened during your period, which is funny because it says pre-menstrual, but no one explains that to you. You know, no one tells you. So you just think, oh, I have my period on PMSing, which actually doesn't, that actually doesn't make sense with the way we're using the words, right? Which is so interesting to me because you can have PMS through your period. But one of the main signs for PMDD is that

the day you bleed, all of the symptoms lift and you feel so much better. I mean, you feel massive relief. Whereas people with PMS symptoms, it's all more mild, and maybe it lasts through day three of your period. So PMDD is very specific in that way. Yeah. I just realized after I asked you that question, you know, what is it? Explain it to us when one of the things you do so well in the book is embrace the complexity and mystery of this, you know, that, like you said, the conference you went to, there are so many different ideas and ways of understanding what this is. And I think one of the services that your book does is illuminate them all. I know it's going to help

a huge range of people to feel that they belong because you're embracing the complexity. Yeah, I really hope so. Yeah. It's interesting at that conference, I spoke with so many different, different people and for some people it can be managed with supplements. I mean, you know, there, it can be, people are taking vitamin D and magnesium and all of these different things. Sometimes in addition with something else, maybe a thyroid medication, maybe an antidepressant. There is an amazing person named Brett, maybe know her, Brett Bukart, who created an app called Me Versus PMDD. She's amazing. She's like in her early twenties, really young. And she created this with her mom. She had suffered so greatly from PMDD. And when I spoke with her, I mean,

the cocktail of supplements that she was on was wild, but she, you know, but it managed it. So it's so much trial and error. It's also so hard to figure out on your own. And I wouldn't say, you know, like, I wouldn't say doctors are Western doctors are very, are helpful with this sort of thing. It really tends to be something that you end up looking at holistically and it's, and treatment for it is a layered approach. And that is so, I can say that now, right. But when you're in it and someone tells you that it's so painful because you just want someone to say, Oh, you know, your vitamin D levels are low and this is all you need, or do this, you know you just want an answer and you want relief. And to hear that it's layered and it's

holistic, it takes a lot of energy to, to manage it. Yeah. I relate from 10 years of chronic digestive stuff that I never got diagnosed. And then four years of infertility, it's like, we know we can fly to the moon, you know, we know everything about space, but we can't figure out these mysterious bodies. And yeah. And the multifaceted healing processes that we need to go through. I would love to speak more about the different layers of your healing process, plus your experience with the medical world a little bit later. I just want to stay with PMDD. Something really moved me in the book. It's from an Instagram account that you found called PMDD Level Up to Level Out, I think.

I'll drop the link in the show notes. And they asked people to describe PMDD in three words. And some of the responses that you shared were unpredictable, terrifying, crippling, debilitating, mental torture, exhaustion, chaos, patience, hell on earth, vulnerability, dangerous, exhausting and I found myself wondering what your three words would be. Great question. Well, you know, the responses I could have, I could have written them myself. And that's exactly kind of what I was saying earlier, is that you read someone else's account of PMDD and you feel so seen because we do all experience it experience these same symptoms so I think those women is very well said for me I find myself wanting to go toward

the symptoms so I would say paranoia rage then I would also say depersonalization yeah that's back to when you said you you didn't feel real yeah yeah so let's talk about your experience with the world of doctors and medicine when it comes to this so you described your first experience with the doctor and you actually had you had the foresight to record the conversation because you thought it was going to be funny to listen to later and actually when you listen back it was just it was sad because of the dismissiveness and the lack of interest and the lack of knowledge about what you're experiencing could you share what that was like to be to know what was going on for you and then to be met with such dismissiveness. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I wouldn't say I was ever diagnosed with PMDD. I never was.

I figured it out alongside my therapist. She was the first person and thank God I had her. Right. I mean, she was in her late forties at the time, late forties, early fifties, and she had heard of it. You know, she had experienced it at times or at least experienced severe PMS. She has two children, you know, she's, I just feel so lucky. And if I hadn't had her, I really wonder how I would have figured it out. I'm sure I would have eventually, but that was a gift. So she had referenced PMDD to me. I, you know, being a writer, I started researching and Googling and reading and reading and reading. Right. And I've never been one who's like comfortable at the doctor. Um, like in my twenties, I didn't have any health insurance. Like I just, I don't go to the doctor. I used to not go to the doctor regularly so I already just feel weird in that environment and find it super sterile um but I was so desperate and I like I said before I thought someone would

like do my blood work or like something would be revealed I was also experiencing horrible acne alongside my PMDD so it's like you're dealing with the mental torture and then you're also my blood work or like something would be revealed. I was also experiencing horrible acne alongside my PMDD. So it's like, you're dealing with the mental torture and then you're also dealing with physical torture. So I'm like, something's going on inside me because why am I getting the cystic acne, you know, alongside this PMS? Like, so yeah, I went to the doctor that I had at the time and I told her about this explosiveness and and what exactly happened and how the mood lifted when I got my period on and on. And she just looked at her computer the whole time. And then she responded, oh, so irritability. And I was just like, that is funny. That is actually funny in retrospect. I mean, that is just someone completely not listening to you. I mean, irritability. No, it's not irritability. You know, like I'm telling you about this drastic thing. The other thing I just want to say is this, you know, kind of controversy of like, is PMDD real or is it just something that, you know, is like to tell women that they're fucked up? Why would any woman want attention for this or want to have this?

So why would they lie? So, you know, why would I be exaggerating to her? So she responded that way. And I said no. And then she wrote me a prescription for Zoloft, an antidepressant. And I was so desperate that I, of course I took it. I took the prescription and I had it filled. I didn't know why she prescribed it. She didn't give me any statistics, any insight, any, anything. I know that's how it is at the doctor,

but that, you know, that doesn't, it doesn't make it right. So I took the Zoloft and I ended up having a really bad response to it. I ended up fainting, which I had never fainted in my life. And this was in public at a bar in Brooklyn and the ambulance had to come. And I'm not saying that's her fault by any means. I think I was taking it in conjunction with spironolactone, which spironolactone, which I was taking for acne. And I think that can make you dizzy. So I think it's something about the combination with the two of them. And after I fainted, I was just like this, no, this is not helping me. Um, I'm not going to take something that's made me faint that just seems stupid so I I got rid of it and I switched doctors

and I actually switched doctors to my therapist's doctor yes I love this part of the book oh I was I love this person Dr. Wallace right Dr. Wallace, yeah. And, and what's so funny that you why did you love that part? Because she just seemed like a good doctor. Because, because you write, I will read your words back to you again. Because you say, finally, I was being believed and I couldn't even believe that I was being believed. And then she wrote PMDD and cystic acne on your, you know, on your notes. And you're like, see, I'm being believed. And you couldn't even quite let it in. How did that feel to be, to finally be like, receive that kind of care? Yeah, it was, it was wild. And this was at the same, you know, the same hospital as the first doctor. So it was so interesting to me that this

other, this other person existed, you know, it shows what a great doctor she is because she actually doesn't practice at that hospital anymore. And she has struck out on her own with a holistic practice, which makes total sense, but I can't go to her anymore because she, you know, costs a lot of money, but yeah, I remember talking with her. I remember her making eye contact, asking me questions I had never been asked in my life. But yeah, she looked me with various friends. I've read XYZ book and I've read this book and I've read that book. And, and I have learned that Prozac can be a very low dose. The lowest dose can be very helpful. And then she prescribed it to me. So I advocated for myself. She was very much more like anti medication, which I really appreciated, but I was at the point in my life where I really needed medication and she honored that. Yeah. So that, that was a great experience. And then

to your question, I was sitting in my car afterward. I hadn't, you know, looked at the papers they give you whatever. And I had these papers and I was sitting in the car and I unfolded the paper and it said PMDD, like you said, it said PMDD and it also said cystic acne and wow. Okay. So she agrees that I have PMDD, you know, she didn't write PMS. She didn't write nothing. She didn't write irritability. She didn't write irritability. Yeah, exactly. So that, that definitely was a big moment where I felt like, OK, I'm figuring this thing out. It has a name. I've talked with my doctor about it. They agree. So, yeah, that was definitely definitely a turning point in a lot of ways.

And the Prozac was really supportive for you at that point. There's this quote from the book where you say it was really lovely to feel you read this. I feel warm today. I'm drinking my maca and texting about four girlfriends and my love for them is vast I went to hot yoga yesterday it felt wonderful if I could just give Tony a month where I don't have an outburst it would be the best birthday gift I could give him and then you say though just in case I got us tickets to see a comedy show in March the book is so funny by the way I've laughed out loud so much today I do not know the shit that I write like I just I don't remember um yeah yeah I remember the first part I don't remember the

comedy show but yeah that that strikes me as it's like having a plan b and a backup plan because I didn't trust not to have an outburst and I was right because I did end up still Prozac wasn't it wasn't a miracle drug I did I'm happy that chapter made you smile because my editor and I wanted that chapter to be kind of like a mini Prozac diary and like really feel like the Prozac kicking in and like, you know, the mood lifting, because I think people do have that in their lives, depending, you know, might not be Prozac, but just even like a good day. So I really wanted to capture that. And I did feel, I did, I felt a lot of relief, especially at first. It just, it gave me a little bit of distance from the PMDD outburst where I would still get into,

I would still feel the symptoms. They would come, but I was able to have just like a five second, five seconds of, okay, do you really want to, do you really want to smash that glass? Whereas before I would have just thrown the glass. Like it was just like, it was just a little bit of a buffer. And at times I really felt like a failure for having to go on medication. It was, it was a conflicting, conflicting experience. I've never been on medication for anything. I think when, when you're never on medication in your life, it can feel really weird to have to take something every day. Other people who grow up with different things and, you know, different kinds of prescriptions, it's a, it's a, it's a kind

of different world. So that was something I had to make peace with. And I, and I did make peace with it for the most part. And I think talking with other people and, you know, reading Reddit, Reddit is a really big part of the book, reading Reddit of everyone else that had felt relief on Prozac and, and, you know, women I admired who had taken Prozac, Sheila Heddy is written about in the book. And she wrote a book called Motherhood about deciding whether to have children or not, which I absolutely love. And in that book, the character, it's auto-fiction, the character goes on Prozac. And I began talking with Sheila because she also experienced severe PMS and she kind of gave me the green light. And she said,

you know, just do it. It's like, she said, it's like taking a little, a little bit of sunshine. And that was all I needed to hear. It's like, okay. You know, I just, it was like, what am I, what am I trying to prove by not going on this? Yeah. You talk about so many of the different approaches to working with and healing PMDD. The book is a really profound resource. It's so full of ideas and you have this section things that helped but also who really knows since treatment ended up being such a layered approach that's the title of the section and you also have a list of things that didn't help so for anyone who's listening who's experiencing PMDD this book is a goldmine of ideas and resources I was so I was so with you when you were at the PMDD conference,

where you were receiving all of these ideas and resources, and you were actually right there in your premenstruum. And it was so intense. Can you speak about that experience? Do you have memory of it? Yeah, yeah, being at the PMDD conference while experiencing PMDD? Yes. Yeah. There was, I swear the years of like 2017, 18 and 19, Sophie, my period would just, it was like the punctuation for everything. And it's in the book, but like, I would just get it on all of the important days. Like the day I would get on a flight, I would get it the day, you know, I got it on my honeymoon. I got it on my wedding day. I got it on if we went on like a romantic weekend away. It was just constant. It was so crazy.

And I have short cycles. So it would be like day 26, you know, like on and on day 26. So I just, it was just so wild. So of course I had it at the PMDD conference and it was, it was meta, but well, let's see when I, this was during my whole 30 phase. Um, I think I was also taking the Prozac. So, um, yeah, I was doing both. So I felt really good because I was just eating really well. And, um, I got there, I wasn't feeling any symptoms and for the first day and then the next day they started to kick in and they kicked in pretty hard.

I started to feel some of that paranoia. I talked with my boyfriend at the time on the phone and I started feeling the rage come on so much so that I couldn't or I didn't feel able to go to a couple of the lectures. Yeah, I was just so exhausted. And so I sat outside just at the pool by myself. And then I ended up telling, you know, of course the women there were so supportive, obviously it's kind of the best place to be, right. Yes. Experiencing that. And I went up to one of the founders of, of the international association of premenstrual disorders. And they were there. Her name was Amanda LaFleur. I went up to her. I just burst

into tears. It was, is yeah, it was kind of embarrassing and burst into tears. And they said, just don't go to the lecture, just go do your own thing. So I went and did that. And then I did pull it together because I was there to teach a class on like strategies for writing about PMDD and writing, you know, through the symptoms. So I did pull it together and that workshop was really, it was really meaningful. I think I was a little bit disassociated when I did it, but I remember just getting through it and I had everyone write about their first period and that was really interesting because what's so crazy about asking people to do that there's so much trauma around people's first periods most people were in tears and isn't it interesting that this

thing is causes people so much trauma the first time they have it I would say nine out of ten of the of the people yeah it's such a clear sign that so much more education is needed around the menstrual cycle right because it's still happening one on our main program the menstruality leadership program we have a whole section about the first period because it holds so much it holds so much trauma and kind of because of that it holds so much power as well to go back and reflect on it and we we actually have a course called menarche where people go back and you know negotiate their first experience and in some ways you know rewrite it which can be a really powerful way to approach it I loved in your in the book that you shared loads of different stories of people's first

periods and also how they were educated about PMS and that was a really powerful part of the book yeah yeah I think part of that the idea for that did come from the festival and hearing people's first period stories and thinking it'd be so cool to have an anthology of those. I love that that menarche class exists. I might take that because I think the way we treat our first period, I think that becomes the relationship that we have with our period, at least until we heal. I think for me, it was because I, you know, for me, it was very much like denial. And then I just totally kind of ignored my period all through my teens and twenties until really this happened. And it kind of seems like this happening is just like, stop ignoring me, you know, like stop ignoring me.

I'm important. So it's like what they say about like our bodies kind of knowing, you know, like stop ignoring me. I'm important. So it's like what they say about like our bodies kind of knowing, you know, I never put that connection together before until now, just talking with you. But I really think that that was part of it. So, yeah. And the first period chapter I really like, I think it began from, I have many aunts. My mom has a bunch of sisters and I have a lot of cousins as well. So we all were talking about our periods and, you know, they all talk about their first period. And so that's how it began. And I started just thinking I would ask all my family members about their first period and look at the ways it had changed down the generations of women. And then from there, I ended up just branching out and asking tons of other people and friends and students and acquaintances. And I think, you know, it begins with a speculative period of my grandmother from 1920. And then it

goes until about 2016, 2017. Or no, no, it goes, I'm sorry sorry until 2018 of my cousin getting her period so you do see the change throughout and of the period of the products that people had to use and the menstrual belt and then all the way to the you know thinks underwear that people use now but even my cousin who was in the the 2018 category still said you know that girls in high school will would hide tampons in their sleeve like it's still you know it still does go on which is really sad I do I do think that's changing if you'd like to be held and guided and supported to understand and reframe your first period whether that's to support you through healing something like premenstrual rage or pmdd or for any other reason we invite you to join our

menarche program and we want to offer you 50 off if you'd like to join by the end of april using the code love 50 i'll put the link to the course in our show notes and we hope this program supports you to make peace with your first period, to reframe the experience and to gain the power that you can find from it. Okay, back to our conversation with Chloe. Yeah, it is changing. I just did an episode with Jane Bennett who has been working in this field for 40 years she's she's such a powerhouse and she has created an organization called Celebration Day for Girls but it works with all young menstruators people having their first periods and she's recently written a book with a co-author called about bloody time the

menstrual revolution we have to have oh wow they interviewed 3 000 women about their experiences of periods and the shame that came up and the pain and the lack of education you know it's still really rife but people like jane people you, people like us are bringing more and more attention to it all the time. And it's brilliant. It's changing slowly. And you know, a film about periods won an Oscar. So that shows you how things are changing. That's right. Definitely. I can't wait to read this book. Is it already released? Yeah, I think it was released a couple of years ago about bloody time it's great yeah great title yeah I know I'm gonna take us off in a completely different and seemingly strange

direction but it'll make sense I want to talk about werewolves this I mean for so long the imagery of of wolves and and women or people who menstruate have been woven together and you were in this reddit thread actually there's a really funny part of the book where at first you're in a group for ladies who experience PMS and they're all talking about like the things that make them cry when they have PMS like the way that my dog is has a body that's shaped like a kidney. It's just so funny and surreal and absurd. And I'm like, I went to KFC and they didn't have the thing I wanted. And I, I felt so disrespected, you know, really funny. And then you said, but then I found, you know, the place that was for me, which was werewolf week, a group called werewolf week. And, you know know at another point in the book your friend Caroline

talks about about being a she-wolf for a week of her cycle I really want to talk about this werewolf idea and character because so many of us can feel like a Jekyll and Hyde experience of you know I'm one person for a certain part of the month and one person for the rest. And you've pointed to this. Yeah. Can you riff on werewolves with me when it comes to this? Sure. Yeah, you're right. There's the women who run with the wolves book, which I didn't really make that connection until hearing you talk.

See, that's what's so great about people reading your books and communicating because then the book takes on a whole different meaning and shape. So thank you. Yeah. I love that. I loved that that group had that name. PMDD does have kind of the slang for it is definitely like werewolf week, which shows how different it is than PMS because you probably wouldn't call PMS that I know people say shark week occasionally, but I don't like that for some reason, but werewolf week. And then when you go to the Reddit page, it says werewolf week. Now we can all feel crazy together. I rule like a wolf, like a R O O O. And I'm like, that's, that's great. So you do become unrecognizable in some ways. At the same time, there's the quote in the book too, of maybe this is just weak that I am actually get to be my real self. So I sort of don't subscribe to the idea that like, oh, that's not me. That's like

PMDD. And like, that's like this werewolf's likewolf's like not me well it's not you and it is you yeah so i used to really compartmentalize more werewolf weekend and and pmdd and now it's like i think it's good to have that kind of animalistic part of you if you know how to work with it for me the work with pmdd was like how to make that werewolf have power, but power that doesn't come out at other people. And like therapy has been really helpful for this because my therapist works a lot with somatic work of the body and sitting with different feelings in the body. And she has really taught me that anger, anger is really powerful and it's meaningful and there's wisdom to it. And it's not something that, you know, you have to hide or be ashamed of. It's okay to be like in the werewolf energy and to feel that because that's, that's a power. And, and as women, we are really powerful and we,

you know, and we do bleed and, you know, we have an egg traveling through us and our, our hormones are shifted. So it's okay to, to feel these kind of feel more like an animal that we think, you know, and, and eat differently and act differently and be in touch with that part of ourselves. That's more wild. And I think the work, at least the work for me was to have that, that wild part, but not, not hurt other people, hurt people with it I feel that there is one one of the layers of this healing process is reframing the powers of the premenstruum because our world doesn't particularly embrace truth-speaking women especially and so there's a truth that can come

through and there's a power and like you said a wildness that can come through in the pre-menstruum that isn't understood or accepted or at all celebrated in our collective and that is one of the things that feeds into the dysphoria that it's not it's not allowed it's not honored it's not acknowledged and seen as a natural part of existence yeah exactly exactly one of the places I'd love to go I've got so many places I want to go but at Red School we often speak about cycle symptoms and disturbances as a gateway, often a profoundly challenging and painful gateway to knowing ourselves and to accessing more of our power. So in this way, the challenges that the cycle can bring have the potential to be initiatory or evolutionary and support us to grow into fuller versions of ourselves and the the practice then is menstrual cycle awareness that's the

remedy that connects us to ourselves and helps to build the capacity slowly over time alongside many other healing approaches to be able to hold the disturbances or meet the disturbances more and more over time so that they can be integrated and understood and healed. I think I might read apart from the intro to the book which says for Chloe healing isn't just about finding the right diagnosis or a single cure it means reflecting on other underlying patterns in her life her feelings about her queer identity and writing persona in the context of a heterosexual relationship how her parents divorce contributed to her issues with trust what it means to blend the family you know and one of

the things you do so beautifully in the book is speak about this multi-layered process and I'm not even sure if I have a question here it It's a big question. I've just pointed to so many, you know, vulnerable and tender aspects of your life, but, you know, could you speak to that, that multi-layered process of, of healing and the initiatory nature of this? Definitely. Yeah. Like what you said about symptoms at the PMDD conference. One of the things, one of the notes I took was this, the line that a symptom is a need that's not being met. And I thought that was so beautiful because it can be taken in so many ways. It doesn't literally mean, you know, Oh, you have an iron deficiency, you know, it can, it can be emotional too. Right. It's like, if your symptom is, you know, rage, it's like, well, what's the need that isn't being met? What's what's

underneath it. So that's, that's definitely one way I think about symptoms now, which I think is really interesting. Like, Oh, if I'm having, you know, horrible cramps this month, maybe if I, you know, was taking like long walks in the know, horrible cramps this month, maybe if I, you know, was taking like long walks in the woods, my cramps would be a little bit better because they usually are with movement and, you know, leading up to your period or, oh, I'm bleeding and I like have all these blood clots. Okay. Well, what's, what's going on? So I think, I think that's been a really, a really nice way to look at symptoms and there's less kind of self blame. And there's also less hopelessness when you look at them that way. Not it. And I don't mean like in the sense of like, Oh, I need to fix all of my symptoms.

I don't mean that, but I do think there's something underneath like, okay, well I'm getting headaches before each period. Okay. Well, why, you know, am I dehydrated? Just like looking, looking at things and realizing you can, your symptoms can, can ebb and flow depending on like lifestyle changes. I used to hate when people said like lifestyle changes. Cause I would be like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, like I'm healthy. What the hell do you want me to do and change? Like I go to yoga, but like looking of course, with time, we see things differently. And like looking back, I'm like, yeah, it wasn't taking as good care of myself. Yeah. I was drinking two huge ice coffees when I was getting like rageful PMS. Did that help? No,

you know, um, or like not sleep it like, oh yeah, I was up until one in the morning, like all of that stuff, as much as I still don't want to admit it, and definitely didn't want to admit it back then that all contributed. So layered approach. Yeah, it's it's just been really nice to have all of these different things to support, I would say like to support PMDD and not to, you know, fix it or cure it. And I used to really, really, really resent that I had to do these things like, you know, and I know a lot of people with mental illness feel the same way. People who, you know, have bipolar, schizophrenia, depression, they feel the same way. I've heard people talk about this of like the amount of stuff they do to manage

it. Like, Oh, I wake up, I have to do like my, you know, yoga and like my morning pages and I have to do meditation and go to therapy. It's like, it's like a lot, right. It feels like a part-time job at first. Yeah. And then over time, you know, that starts to loosen. And so I still do things to support it. And now it just feels a lot more fluid than it did at first. You know, I'll, I'll go to acupuncture. I have therapy. I have supplements, exercise, all of these things that used to make me roll my eyes. It's just like, why, you know, like, why was I rolling my eyes at these things when they actually are helpful things and tools, you know, you want to just like, at least for me, I wanted to just be able yeah, you're right. I am, you know, like give me

one because I don't want to change my lifestyle. I don't want to stop drinking coffee. I don't want to have to do the whole 30. I don't want to go to yoga. You know what I mean? And then once I sort of had a less, I think, immature mindset about it, I realized, well, those things are good things in general, right? It's like, they're not going to hurt me. So why wouldn't I do the things that make me feel good or supported and rely on other people? Like, this is another one, like, you know, I teach writing classes and I teach memoir and personal essay. And in those kinds of classes there, I work with people that are writing about trauma and that can be really exhausting. So at a certain point I thought to myself, like I can lean on other people, you know, people lean on me in these writing classes. So I can lean on an acupuncturist and a therapist and a friend

to, to fill myself back up. And then the chapter that you pointed out earlier, things that helped. So that was a last minute change because I really wanted to tell people things that helped me, but I also know that PMDD is so unique for each person. So by no means, you know, what works for me won't work for you and vice versa. Right. So that's why I ended up adding like things that helped, but also who really knows because who does know, you know, who knows if it was the right supplement or if it was acupuncture, if it was the walks or, you know, the Prozac. It's like it's everything in conjunction with each other. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the world's longest detective novel that has no resolution.

Yeah. That should be the genre for this book. It's like a detective novel of your period. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that gets exhausting and that gets so frustrating, you know, and we don't always have space to do all of this. It's very privileged to be able to go to therapy and acupuncture. And when you can't afford those things, you're like, okay, am I just, am I screwed? And trust me, I've been in my life where I can't afford those things. And you do feel, you start to feel a little bit defeated. So it's like, okay, well, I can't afford those. What can I do feel, you start to feel a little bit defeated. So it's like, okay, well, I can't afford those. What can I do? Well, I could take, I could take a half hour walk every day. You know, I could take a bath, just different, different things to ground your body

and mind. Yeah. Yeah. As I was reading the book, I was reflecting back on a period of my life what would it be like seven eight years ago now and thinking wow you know if could I have had a PMDD diagnosis then because I remembered especially one premenstrual phase where I was I had a huge fight with my ex-hobby Ward and I was I'd gone out into the to the garden to the apple tree and I'd literally fallen on my knees it was raining and I was clawing the earth this is why I really wanted to talk about the werewolves because there's something so wild that comes out and I came back in the house and I had mascara streamed down my face and I was I was shouting at him I was shouting at him, I was screaming at him. And I sort of see that snapshot. And I think, firstly, I think, wow, I wonder what was going on there for me,

because that was a pattern that happened for three years of that kind of rage. And the story I tell myself now, and it's much more complex than this, but the story I tell myself now is my premenstrual rage was showing me that I was in the wrong relationship, living in the wrong country, doing the wrong job. And slowly over time, I left that relationship in a really beautiful way. Actually, we dissolved the marriage and got divorced and we're great friends. But I left the marriage. I moved back to my home country I was living in Seattle then I moved back to England and I stopped being a filmmaker and I moved into this work and not only did that premenstrual rage heal up in many ways but also

the chronic illnesses that I was experiencing so it's just so interesting I wouldn't want to be as simplistic as to say that was what healed my health problems. Cause it isn't because I'm still managing things now, but it was a huge, it was a really important part of it. Like those course corrections were really pivotal in creating that healing. Yeah, no, that's so interesting to hear you say that because it kind of like where we started with me saying, I don't know, is it, is it situational, you know, for some people, sometimes I don't, I don't mean, you know, PMDD definitely isn't, but hearing, hearing you say that kind of validates what I was saying in my sort of one of my theories on it, which that it really can be because it's like stress. It's like how your stress is, is manifesting. And so that's so interesting

to me because that is kind of the lifestyle changes. Or like I said before, it's like forcing you to look at something and look at your life and it's like yelling, right? It's like, pay attention. And then, which sounds like you did, which is great. Thank you for sharing that. So interesting to hear about the pattern. I love that image of you outside under the apple tree. I mean, I did make changes, but it took three years. It took three years of those cycles of rage. And yeah, it takes a while to see the pattern. It really does. Yeah. Which is why menstrual cycle awareness is so key. Like tracking the cycle is the foundation of all of this isn't it because then you get to actually see your patterns exactly exactly yeah yeah my tracking I'm writing about

this now for um nylon magazine about how period apps are kind of like my frenemy like I like them but they also annoy me because they're always trying to like get you to upgrade and you know, they're trying to just get your money. So it just feels kind of fucked up. At the same time, they're so helpful, but I write in the essay cause I kind of, I'm like joking about this. I'm like, yeah, the app was not, it was like too contained and like pink and, you know, like upgrade and dah, dah, dah, you know, for me to really be able to track PMDD with this. So then I started just tracking it like in this book instead, I needed like a bigger space and a bigger medium, if that makes sense. Totally. Yeah. I'm a pen and paper person myself and we've got menstrual charts. I'll link them in

the show notes. We've got menstrual charts that have space for that see that's cool yeah I'll print one of those out yeah I just I like that better there's something I don't know over time there's something that ended up depressing to me where when someone asks you or like the doctor whatever like when was the last period and you have to pull out your phone there's something weird about that. Yes. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Like that.

And that's my, that's the question like that in this essay is like, are they getting us to look more into our bodies or actually be more disconnected from our bodies? You know? Fascinating. I can't wait to read that article. Yeah. I'll send it to you. Yeah. There was a really nice moment in the book

when you're talking about the app the app that's got the red zone in it yeah and well firstly I want I'd love to read this quote I was getting tired of having to rebuild our red zone of being damaged by conflict the outbursts come on so quickly imagine a fire hydrant you're standing next to bursting you didn't see it coming but neither did the fire hydrant and you talk so beautifully in the book about your relationship with Tony and your stepdaughter Sadie and I'd love to give a bit of time to what helped you to navigate this experience and the impact it had on your relationships and there's a great moment where Tony says where is it I've written it down here I know you're in the red zone right now the app says I have to be strong and like a

rock for you today yeah I loved his attitude that was great yeah it was it was a really great attitude I was I'm really lucky in that way and him him saying that, you know, that's where the title came from, because then I was talking to a friend on the phone and kind of quoting maybe him or yeah, probably quoting that to her. And that was really when I had the idea to write the book, because my friend afterward texted me and she said, I keep thinking about the red zone. Like, she's like, I want to hear more about the red zone. And from there, I was like, that's it. That's the title. I always forget that it, yeah, it came from the app because, so we were using two different apps and the one for partners, which was really for, you know, primarily men. So it was, you know, not the, not inclusive in any way. And I wonder, I wonder how that app is doing now and if they've changed, but it was called female forecaster and that was for your partner to look at. And on that app is doing now and if they've changed, but it was called Female Forecaster. And that was for your partner to look at. And on that app, the days, you know, leading up. So it's like maybe day 20, 21, 22, 23.

Well, maybe less than that, maybe 25 through, you know, 28 were bright red. So it was just a warning sign. But yeah, I think, you know, it was, it was really challenging for a few years, 2017 and 2018 were, were really challenging. And it's really hard to have that when you're in a new relationship. It's super scary to have like something feeling like it, it threatens the relationship. And back to what you asked me before about the doctor, you know, when I talked with her, I remember saying to her, yeah, I do need to go on medication. Cause like I've said before, she's trying to, you know, do it holistic, more holistically than I needed at

the time. And I said, I do need medication because there's a child involved and I don't want to bring this into a child's life. So I need support. So in the midst of all of the PMDD episodes, you know, you have like this relationship that's progressing really quickly because we met in 2017 and I proposed in 2018. We were married in 2019. And that's sort of the course that I wanted the book to take is this, this really specific time. So yeah, there were, there were a lot of, a lot of challenges, but I think having a partner that can really start to be open to understanding this condition, that was, that was key. I mean, we wouldn't be together now or be married if,

if he hadn't been. So there was a lot of it that we, we did together. I mean, we wouldn't be together now or be married if, if he hadn't been. So there was a lot of it that we, we did together and I would share the things I was reading and I would read things. I mean, sometimes there was a lot of humor and we would read the Reddit group that you were talking about earlier and we would laugh and laugh and laugh, you know, because always after the episodes, there was, I had my, my kind of senses back and I had perspective and I'm like, that was fucking crazy um so we would read these accounts of people like you were saying before you know throwing their chicken mcnuggets out the window and throwing dumplings up the stairs and all of these things

um so there there was humor and I think overall it ended up making us making us stronger and closer in many ways. Could you share some of the practical things that helped you to navigate it together? Yeah. I do not miss those days. A challenge for us was that my husband's a musician, so he would be traveling pretty frequently. And a lot of the ways my PMDD manifested was that I, I liked to kind of get into these texts, texting fights. So that, that was

really, really hard. And one of the techniques we came up with, maybe he came up with first, was airplane mode. So if he started to feel the energy of PMDD, which is PMDD is very obvious in my texts. And we, you know, later joked that he knew I was in PMDD when I started saying you're an asshole and fuck you, you know, those were, they're just such clear signs. Like there's no hiding from it. So when he started to see those, he would say airplane mode and he would put his phone into airplane mode and I would go crazy. You know, at first I hated this and over time it actually became a really great tool and it became something we both used.

I would use it too. If I needed space or I didn't want to talk about something anymore, or we were fighting, I would say airplane mode. So we, we used it back and forth. And whenever we came back from airplane mode, we were a little bit more calm. So that was, yeah, that's kind of a funny thing that was really helpful with the phones. Another thing, we came up with certain rules of that, you know, I wasn't allowed to say like, fuck you and you're an asshole, you know, it was like our damaging things to say to your partner. And sometimes I would write, I would write myself letters when I wasn't in PMDD to read when I was in PMDD. This didn't end up working as well as I thought it was going to,

because when you're in PMDD, you're like, I don't care about my stupid letter. You know? The other thing that you said is you had a picture of sadie and it like above her head it said something about compassion and you thought if i have that on my phone when i'm in the mdd i'll feel more compassion it totally didn't work that didn't work i know now that you're saying that i'm like that's such a fucking good idea but it did not work so it was almost like the things you thought were going to work didn't and then other unexpected things things did. Trying to think if there was anything else. I don't know. We tried other things.

We would put it on our like shared Google calendar of when the red zone was going to be. And that was helpful at times. The thing that I ended up being like really helpful would just because I would find in PMDD, I would be kind of really needy, like asking for something, but I didn't know what it was like. oh my God, you know, you're just not, you know, being how I want you to be. And I like, I need, you know, you to be there for me, like things that were very vague or abstract. So what can be really helpful for that was having something actually concrete.

So, and I think this is in the book, but something like, hey, I don't feel good. Could you go, you you know buy brownies because that's something easily attainable right and then he comes back and has brownies so it's just kind of a win-win um so having like more concrete things like that instead of the vague you're not being nice to me kind of thing. I'm excited for people who are experiencing challenging that I'm not excited for them to have challenge in their relationships. I'm excited that they have this book because the stories that you share of your experiences together and the ways you navigate it and the way you share so generously and your memory is amazing that you can, you know, remember the moments and the conversations that you have. It's so rich.

And thanks. I think I was writing them down pretty quickly after they happened at the time and then going, yeah. And then I went back in over time with editing, you know, another thing, if, if anyone listening is having challenges with PMS or PMDD there's a lot of stuff. Sometimes I don't use TikTok, but I'll type it into my husband's phone, like PMDD TikTok or PMS TikTok. And you can see a lot of stuff there now. It's, it's crazy to think that actually wasn't around Sometimes I don't use TikTok, but I'll type it into my husband's phone, like PMDD TikTok or PMS TikTok. And you can see a lot of stuff there now. It's crazy to think that actually wasn't around in 2017 when I was, I mean, TikTok was, but people weren't using it the way they are now. And there definitely wasn't like, you know, PMS culture on it.

So, yeah, that can be really fun. And that was something we would, we would do together. Laugh at different things. Same thing with memes. Sometimes we would use, would use that's what it was yeah we would use kind of funny memes that were about PAMDD and send them to each other oh go Tony yeah he's awesome yeah um so yeah the book is coming out in. This podcast will come out at a similar time, The Red Zone. How can our listeners connect with you? Obviously we recommend that they buy the book and read the book, but how can they best connect with you? Yeah, that would be great. I really like hearing from people. I use Instagram. My handle there is my name, C-H-L-O-E, but it has four E's and then my last name Caldwell. And yeah, my website is Chloe and then my middle name,

Simone, S-I-M-O-N-N-E.com. And on there, I have the pre-order link to various places you can pre-order it. And I will also have my events on there because I am going to be doing some in-person events, but I also have some virtual events coming up. Oh, exciting. Great. I can't wait to join in. Oh yeah. I would love to see you there. So I want to thank you for everything you shared today and for the wit and humor and generosity and vulnerability of the book and for being willing to share yourself with the world in this way it's such a it's such a healing act for so many people thank you Chloe well thank you so much Sophie and thank you for the generous read and and the great questions and and listening and really brought back to that time period now and it's really really interesting I

love hearing your perspective and and the work that you do with this podcast and the red school so thank you oh I really never imagined that a conversation about premenstrual rage could feel so delicious it was so liberating so de-shaming so yeah invigorating I felt revitalized afterwards and I hope you did too we appreciate you listening and we would also love to hear from you we'd love to hear what's moving you what's inspiring you the topics you'd love us to speak about the people you'd love us to interview so you can always drop me a line at sophie at redschool.net and please leave us a review if you're loving this podcast it will really help to expand the reach of this work okay we look forward to being with you I look forward to being with you again next week and until then keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm