The Menstruality Podcast - Infertility, Cycle Awareness, Grief and Hope (Jennifer Robertson)

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

Infertility can be heart-breaking, anxiety-inducing and full of grief. Research has shown that people experiencing infertility have the same levels of anxiety and depression as those with cancer, heart disease and HIV. In this episode, Fertility coach Jennifer Robertson offers solace and guidance drawn from her own seven-year journey to motherhood. This one's for you if you’re looking for support, inspiration and friendship as you navigate infertility yourself, or if you’re working with people experiencing infertility, or since 1 in 6 people experience fertility challenges, if you’d like to play a supportive role for friends or family.We explore:Jennifer’s seven-year journey to create her family; through the infertility rollercoaster, multiple rounds of IVF, miscarriage, a long and challenging surrogacy process, and finally, an unexpected, natural pregnancy. How each phase of the menstrual cycle presents different challenges on the journey through infertility, as well as different powers that can soothe and support us as we ride the rollercoaster. How to navigate baby-making sex, manage pre-menstrual rage at the unfairness of intertility, and support ourselves through the profound grief we may feel each month when we bleed. ---Registration is open for our 2022 Menstruality Leadership Programme. You can check it out here. https://www.redschool.net/menstruality-leadership-programme-2022---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @red.school - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolJennifer Robertson: @msjenniferrobertson - https://www.instagram.com/msjenniferrobertson

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Thank you for joining us and being part of the community gathering around this podcast. Today's conversation was a really personal one for me. Infertility has touched my life profoundly.

It took four long turbulent years to finally welcome our beautiful son Artie into our family and it was a real joy and a relief to talk it all out with fertility coach Jennifer Robertson. Jen has been a source of real solace for me and in this chat we both share deeply about our own journey to creating our families from navigating the total unsexiness of baby making sex, to managing premenstrual rage at the unfairness of infertility, to carrying semen samples on trains, and to holding ourselves through the deep grief we can feel at menstruation. So this one is for you if you're looking for support, inspiration, friendship as you navigate infertility yourself or perhaps you're working with people who are experiencing infertility or since I think it's one in six people experience fertility challenges if you'd like to play a supportive role for

friends or family. We do drop a couple of f-bombs here so use your headphones if you're around other people. Okay here we go with infertility, cycle awareness, grief and hope. Hey Jennifer thank you so much for being with us and welcome to the menstruality podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah it's great to have you here and we're actually at totally opposite ends of the day here because you're winding down at 8pm and I'm just getting started at 10am. So how's it going over there in your evening? Yes, yes. I'm having a glass of red wine and settling in for some really great conversation. I love it. And I'm drinking my morning tea on the other side. I love it.

So the way we always start here is with a cycle check-in. So I'd love to hear where you're at in your cycle and how that's flavoring how you're feeling today. Sure. I have never been asked that question before, but I am just a little bit beyond ovulation. So I must be around day 17 or 18 and I'm feeling really good. Like this is the week where I have a lot more creativity, which is fantastic. Same. Oh, that's wonderful. Really powerful time for us to have this conversation I would love us to start with your story around infertility and creating your family you've been

so generous in the way that you share on your Instagram feed with your book would you walk us into yeah how this has been for you how your infertility journey has been and how the journey has been to creating your family yeah look the journey to creating our family was long and treacherous and filled with so many different things that we never thought that we would do or encounter or having conversations that we never thought that we would have. And I also never believed that that was the path that led me to do what I'm doing right now, which is being a fertility coach. So my husband and I got married when we were 33 and we started trying on our honeymoon and it didn't happen straight away. So six months down the track, our sex life in tatters.

I am your typical type A personality. So it didn't really sit well with me. It wasn't something that I was used to being told that I had to be patient or that I couldn't control this was really tough. So we went and saw a fertility specialist and we went straight down the path of IVF because my husband's sperm wasn't that fantastic. tough so we went and saw a fertility specialist and we went straight down the path of IVF because my husband's sperm wasn't that fantastic some part they referred to it as and so we went down the path of IVF and then halfway through the cycle they realized that I wasn't getting a lining on my

uterus I didn't have a regular cycle back then either because I had been on the contraceptive pill for, it must've been for almost 16 years by that stage. So I had no idea what my cycle looked like. So if you had asked me that question of where I am in my cycle back, you know, before I started trying to conceive, I would have had no idea because I was also one of these people who just kept on skipping their period. Anyway, you're on the pill, you just keep on taking it. So you actually don't get a period. So looking back now, it's quite obvious that, you know, part of our struggle was based on the fact that I didn't have any clue what my cycle was doing. It wasn't regular. And I think because of that, I mean, obviously I'm just speculating that led to our

struggles, which was the fact that I wasn't getting that lining on my uterus. So I wasn't shedding. I had very light periods, if any at all. And so what happened then was that we ended the cycle with about six frozen embryos but couldn't do anything with them and so I spent the next about a year and a half going through all natural therapies all of the natural therapies that you can think of to try to get a cycle that was regular, to try to identify when I was ovulating. And we tried homeopaths, we tried different diets, acupuncture, fertility teas. We went down medicated routes as well. We had hormone replacement therapy. I had exploratory surgeries, viagra, pessaries, you name it, I took it.

And every single scan, it was the same result, endometrium unresponsive. So eventually, it must have been about two years into our trying to conceive journey, our fertility specialist at the time pulled us aside and said, there's really no other way that you're going to have a baby of your own outside of surrogacy so that was the offer that was put on the table for us and we were very blessed that our my sister-in-law so my husband's sister had previously put her hand up and said if you need I will have a baby for you so um there we were faced with this decision of she was our only option so we began the the long tough you know grief filled journey that is

surrogacy so um we were on our surrogacy journey for for the next two years and we went through various cycles, nine IVF cycles in total. Some resulted in embryos, some didn't. We had some transfers that resulted in nothing. Eventually she got pregnant and unfortunately suffered a miscarriage nine weeks later, which was absolutely devastating and really complicated as well, because there was so much guilt involved in that because we had done this to her you know we had dragged her along on this journey that we were going on and and now she had joined this club that no one wants to be a part of so that was that was a really really tough time you know trying to support ourselves and trying to support her through it as well it was really tough so eventually we kept on trying and she got pregnant again. And then we had Luca. So Luca is now seven years old. And it just so happened that after Luca was born, he was two weeks old and I got pregnant naturally myself. So that was a shock. Here I had a newborn baby and I was, you know,

I had gotten the thing that I had been craving for five years up until that point. So it was met with mixed emotions, you know, obviously absolutely thrilled. But unfortunately unfortunately a few weeks later I think it was that nine another nine weeks later I had a miscarriage myself which was that was probably out of all of the moments that's probably the rock bottom moment for for me because I felt like we had gone through this whole five-year journey and we had finally got our baby in our arms and you know I was off the infertility roller coaster and I was so glad to be off it but then we were thrown back on it given a little ray of hope you know that we could actually have more and then I was thrown off it again. And I just thought how, like, how ridiculous is that? What possible reason could there be for all of the

stuff that we were going through to end like this? I just, I felt like it was a cruel joke. I felt like I had done something wrong to deserve this. But fortunately, you know, the only place to go when you hit rock bottom is back up. And it did give me a little ray of hope because I had never gotten pregnant before. And now I knew that I could. So we progressed, you know know we were kind of trying but not really trying at the same time I knew what my cycle was doing by that stage it had regulated after five years my husband and I were having sex again for pleasure instead of this huge burden that it places over you because sex becomes a struggle. And, and yeah, so, so six months later, I got pregnant naturally again, and now we have Sophie. So she is five years old. So this seven year journey filled with so many different twists and turns that you you couldn't even imagine you know I look back and

think that is nothing like I pictured it but the picture that I have at the end now is exactly the way that I pictured it. Thank you so much for sharing that it's incredible I'm so congratulations I'm so happy about Luca and Sophie and your family thank you yeah congratulations I would love to hear I'm pausing here before this question because I want to ask it sensitively what I'm not asking is are there any were there any silver linings because I think it's such a it's so much more nuanced and complicated than that but what I want to ask is are there strengths in you that you have now because of these years of challenge and struggle is there has there been something crafted within

you that perhaps wouldn't have been there without this? Oh, 100%. And it's really hard to see the learnings and the silver linings when you're inside the journey. The reason I can see them now is, number one, I got my happily ever after. So clearly those were the silver linings out at Luca and Sophie. Also, it led me to a path that I never would have imagined that I would be doing now as a fertility coach. It also showed me, you know, the strength and the resilience

and the generosity of people as well. You know, my sister-in-law actually had a baby for us which I never truly grasped how big a deal that was until I went through pregnancy myself and I was like oh my goodness you did this for us out of the goodness of your heart because commercial surrogacy isn't legal here in Australia so we we weren't paying her anything. So she just, she did it because she wanted to. So there's, there was so much love that, that came from it. But, but even now I, any challenge that I face now, I have a different perspective. And I look back and think, if I can get through miscarriage, if I can get through seven years of infertility, if I can get through all of the stuff that we went through, then I can pretty much handle it because not only have I walked through fire before, but as a fertility coach, I have learned the coping mechanisms and the skills to actually be able to process the

motions as we go through them, as opposed to pushing them down. And unfortunately on my fertility journey, I did it all wrong. I did all of the things that you shouldn't do. I pushed it down. I denied it. I was angry all of the time. I never took time out for myself. I just pushed and pushed and pushed. And at the end, I got there, but I was broken as well. And it wasn't until I actually wrote my book, The Injustice of Infertility, that I was able to heal and actually grieve and walk through all of those things that I went through in order to be able to release them and move forward from them because they don't go away. The scars really do remain and the trauma does remain and we need to work out how to exist with it without it consuming us yeah I know after my experience I somehow feel closer to death somehow closer to

this crazy mystery that is our life you know that we that we're, we're born and we die and we can forget that, you know, in the melee of day-to-day life, we can forget the big picture of what we're inside of, but there was something about the five years, four years, that experience of infertility, that the constant death and rebirth, death and rebirth, death and rebirth cycle of, is it this month? Is it this month? Is there life inside me? The blood comes? No. Is it this month? Is it this month? The blood comes? No. And the grief that I felt every month with that process, I feel like it's initiated me into something. I don't quite know what it is, but I don't think I need to. I think I'm, yeah, as you said stronger and I often say to myself there's

nothing I can't do now there's nothing I can't do now yes and and that's what it is it is sometimes I think the grief cycle that you do go through and and because you go through it so often it does become this you know this source of strength as well because you have been through that month after month after month and I'm not saying that it gets easier and I'm not saying that you get stronger while you are inside the journey but it is something that you have faced and so your perspective of everything is different and and I always talk to women who are like you know this everyone's talking about this stupid thing you know and and I don't understand why why can't they understand what I'm going through and I say to them it's because your perspective is different from theirs. You know, like you, like what you're dealing with right now is so much bigger than anything that you have ever faced. Nothing else

seems to matter in comparison. And that's why we get sucked into it so much as well. That's why we get consumed by infertility so much. Yeah, it matters so much. And I always felt inside me that there was some kind of momentum inside me that wouldn't let me go. You know, my, my friends lovingly, and we'll get into this later in the conversation would say things like, Sophie, just got to let it go. You've just got to let it go. And I'd try and explain to them. I cannot do that I want to but I cannot because something in me is you know you said you pushed and pushed and pushed I felt like something was pushing through me and just wouldn't let me let it go because it mattered so much and maybe because of the biological drive I don't know but it it was real and I couldn't let it go it's this it's this I think it's like a it's almost

like this yearning you know it doesn't go away it is something. It's this, I think it's like a, it's almost like this yearning, you know, it doesn't go away. It is something that sits in there. And I think it's almost like this instinct inside of us, this animalistic instinct that comes out. And it's like, I need this now. And as a type A personality, I find, I found that really, really difficult.

You know, it was like everything was against me because I wasn't used to being told no no just because you're working really hard at this doesn't mean that it's actually going to to work you know and everyone always tells you to you know as your friends did melt well meaning you know take a step back slow down but but I couldn't like it just there was nothing in me that was kind of like no I can't take the foot off the gas I need to just keep on going really quickly and then it becomes this frenzy you know because it hurts so much to be on this journey like I need to get off so I need to run you know and so we start running to the

detriment of our mental and emotional and physical health as well because we want to get off the roller coaster so we we sprint and and we really don't look after ourselves. Whereas now I have learned the power of slowing down and getting into flow and not being so productive all of the time. So it has been such a learning experience for me. Not that, you know, not that I would wish this upon anyone at all so that they can learn the same things. But this is what I teach now as well the importance of slowing down and what that looks like as well because it's one thing for your friends to say just relax or just stop trying or just you know go on a holiday you know for a lot of us we don't know how that even looks like we don't even know how slowing

down looks or feels or what we're supposed to do in order to make that happen yeah that brings me on to my next question which is I would love to go through the different phases of the menstrual cycle to look at the different challenges that come up through infertility and then to ask you for your tips and guidance and ideas for how to face them and you know I want to start at menstruation and, you know, at Red School, we teach about how menstruation is the ultimate time to get rest. So ideally, for those of us on an infertility journey or on the journey to creating our families, that would be the time that we would take the foot off the gas and regroup and rest. And for me, what happened every time I got my cycle, you know, and I've been immersed in these teachings for a decade. So

I was beating myself up for not resting, you know, but the reason why I couldn't rest is because of everything you just pointed to, which is I would see the blood and I would go into intense grief that no one in my life could understand I just remember times where I would just lean up against the bathroom floor and then just slowly sink down to the floor literally in a pile and just cry for an hour or two and my hubby would come in and I mean he's my hubby no I wasn't then't then. And he would just say, what can I do? What can I do? Or my friends would say, you know, how are you doing? And no one could help. It was just the grief was so big. And I didn't want to be bleeding. So I didn't want to rest. You know, it wasn't, it was, it was a really difficult edge. So I'd love to hear from you some ways that you learn yourself

and that you share with your clients about how we can support ourselves when we have that moment of okay this month that hasn't happened yeah look everything that I teach is all about allowing you know allowing yourself to sit in how how shitty that moment is you know and allowing yourself the time to grieve as well because a lot of us we don't understand I didn't understand at the time that what I was going through was grief I I just thought that I was weak I I just thought that you know everyone else can handle this why can't Actually, I thought that everyone else was getting pregnant except for me and that's how I felt. So I didn't identify with grief. So I just, I thought that there was something wrong with me for feeling so sad and angry and, you know, punishing myself every single month because I wasn't pregnant again. So,

you know, I think that the most important thing is that in any grief cycle is that we actually grieve. Otherwise we, we store it, you know, and it just keeps on getting bigger and bigger every single month that we're not pregnant. So sitting in it, processing the emotions in whatever way feels comfortable for you. And then after you've set aside that time, then rebuilding. So working out the things that fill you up. And it could be something as simple as, you know, sitting outside in the sunshine, fresh air with a cup of tea reading a book it

could be going for a walk along the beach it could be a warm bath with a candle and essential oils it could be going for a massage and it's also important on the other side to work out what are the things that actually strip me of energy as well and limiting your exposure to those you know rushing multitasking work can drain us the watching the news oh my goodness social media hanging out with people who um who are who give you the insensitive comments or who downplay your grief and pain or who just aren't there for you you know it's about creating the boundaries and working out what are the things that take away my energy avoiding those or being aware that if I have to do a full day's work then perhaps in the afternoon I need to have a bath in order to counteract that and it's always about being really conscious of where your energy level is at, at any point in time. And that can really

help with the grief. So it's about processing it and then making sure that you do rebuild at the end of your cycle as well. As I explored in this conversation with Jen menstrual cycle awareness can be such a profound resource during infertility as well as through life's many challenges and transitions and initiatory journeys if you'd like to learn more about the initiatory power of the menstrual cycle visit menstrualityleadership.com where you can find out more about the world's first leadership training designed for pioneers creatives change makers and troublemakers to realize your full authority and leadership through the power of the menstrual cycleration for our 2022 round closes at the end of this month. Come on over to menstrualityleadership.com.

I think what you shared right at the beginning is so key to all of this. It's that allowing piece because all of these ideas sound really good and I know for myself I often wouldn't actually I wasn't taking the process seriously enough to understand why I needed this much self-care because like you said I was downplaying it myself or my friends were downplaying it um you know it's okay you know you'll try again next month you know I'm sure it'll happen at some point you know I would downplay it myself and what I think is really key and this was a game changer for me is when I realized look I am going through a death and rebirth every month it's invisible people can't see what's happening so

they don't understand how much I'm suffering. The only person that can take care of myself is me right now. So I'm going to have to, like you said, put in the clear boundaries and do the activities that help me. And I did actually end up transforming pretty much my entire life because I needed to, because I needed to be resourced because it was taking so much from me. Yes. And I think that's the thing as well, the things that give you energy and help you heal and, and make you feel good now aren't necessarily the things that, that made you feel good before you started trying to conceive. So the key really is to actually sit down and ask yourself, what is it that makes me feel good? Because we don't tend to

ask ourselves that we just keep on plodding along, living the same day over and over and over again, and just grinning and bearing it and going, okay, well, this is just how it is. So this is how I have to be. And, and I'll just, I just have to suck it up. Yeah. And it can be quite brutal in that also the people that you loved being with before might not be the people that really can meet you now. And I, a couple of friendships I noticed started to sort of fade away and dissolve as I got deeper into the infertility journey, because they just weren't supporting me. And what was so key for me is there were two women that I got close to who were also trying to conceive and they were

my people that I could text on day one of the cycle and just say I'm gonna swear fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck you know just and just roar and scream and cry and they would you know we used to send each other whatsapp messages of crying and just to be heard by someone who knew what was happening was so game-changing so if there's any you know I know that you create community with your work Jennifer and there are other you know ways of finding other people who are going through the same experience that was a huge game changer for me yeah and and that is a part of the grief as well. You know, we have to, you know, our social circle does change, you know, so there will be friendships that we do have to say goodbye to. And we look at it from the point of view of, oh, infertility is stripping something else

from me. It's taking this from me because now I can't hang out with that person. But I think a lot of the time as well, that infertility does show us who, who our true friends are, who are the ones that are able to support us in the good times and the bad. You know, I, I realized a lot of fair weather friends that I had those who were just there when, you know, we were going out and having fun and life was carefree and when I needed the support when the shit hit the fan they weren't there so while it felt like I was grieving those friendships because it felt like it was just another thing being taken from me

in hindsight it was this unraveling of okay now you need to build a community around you for this phase of your life. And I think that, you know, with life, our friendships, like we change, we evolve so much. And especially on our infertility journey, there is so much change that we go through and expecting to be the same person at the end as when you began it's you know it's not going to happen and same when you grow and evolve like your friendship circles are going to grow and evolve as well because you only hang out with people that you have things in common with so unfortunately if you have a whole group of girlfriends who have families and things like that, you're going to tend not to have so much in common with them and hanging out with them might

provide you with more pain than comfort right now. And you get to choose to put those on ice and kind of go, okay, well, I might limit my exposure to them. And then I'm going to concentrate and hang out with the people who are able to support me and that's okay I think that we feel so guilty because we can't hang out with our friends with families or who are pregnant at that point in time and we really need to give ourselves a little bit of grace for the season that we're going through because it is really tough it doesn't make you a bad person because you have to say goodbye to some friendships

it is this evolution that that we go through and we have to create in this season people around us who are going to support us no matter what and if there's anyone listening who is feeling like, well, I don't have anyone in my life who can support me. Firstly, I want to suggest that you go and follow Jennifer on Instagram, because for me, her Instagram posts were some of the most just real and honest and true and good moments of solace for me when I was going through this to hear you know you you say the right thing again and again and again and again so thank you so much it's a an amazing resource but what would you say to someone who feels like they haven't got the support they need it is really hard especially when our family aren't able to support us. And we keep on going back to them over and over and over again because, well, they're our family. So it is really hard when those closest to you aren't able to support you.

So, look, there is an amazing community, as you mentioned, over on Instagram. I know it's complete strangers, but we are drawn together by a commonality. So if you ever feel like you're alone, go onto Instagram over there and connect with some accounts. There's some brilliant accounts there. There are also support groups and things like that. I have a group called Your Pregnancy Haven, which actually supports women who are pregnant after infertility or loss, because once again, that is a really lonely journey as well. So that's the community that I have created. I also have on Facebook,

a community called Your Fertility Haven as well, which has a whole lot of women inside of there. And, you know, it's a lovely community as well. But yes, it is really important to find your people. Unfortunately, it's really hard to find your people when you don't talk about it because this is really a private journey as well. And I didn't share what we were going through with a lot of people. So on one side, you're able to protect your privacy and keep yourself sheltered. But on the other hand, when you're not sharing it, you don't know how many other women are going through it or who have been through it as well. And it's not until you actually tell someone that they're like, oh, my goodness, I went

through it too. Or, oh, my goodness, my cousin's going through it right now. And while it does feel like it's such an isolating journey unfortunately there are so many of us who have been touched by infertility or loss so you know protecting yourself is one thing but it is also really important to be able to talk about it and to share it with people that you trust as well. You know, if you have those people who always make the insensitive comments, they're not the people to be sharing with. So choosing your audience wisely and getting, you know, you don't have to have a whole community.

It could be one or two people exactly like you had as well. Let's skip to the next part of the cycle. I'm actually going to miss out the pre-ovulation phase that which we call the inner spring at red school simply because in my experience that was the place in the cycle when I got a bit of a reprieve and I felt I don't know I found it all a bit easier I'm not sure if everyone finds it that way. So I'd be intrigued to hear from people. But I think it's important to skip to ovulation because the and this is the inner summer of the cycle, as we call it here. Because this can be a really, really tricky time. For many reasons, there's the baby making sex, as you talked about in the beginning. And there's just such a huge roller coaster of emotions that can happen

at this time but let's start with baby making sex which it has to be the least sexiest thing in the entire world going from that sense of connection and intimacy and love when you're making love with your partner to scheduled sex that has to happen at a certain time and it can feel so pressured and well I think my hubby just felt like a milking cow to be honest you know he just felt like he was just there to provide something how do you guide what? My husband referred to it as, it felt like it was a chore, like you were asking me to take out the trash. You know, it is a struggle. And I think that it is important to recognize that it's hard. It is really hard to be going through that. And of course, we don't talk about it either. You know, like sex is the silent struggle for so many of us on our infertility

journey, because it's yet another thing that's taken from us. You know, sex is no longer for pleasure. Sex is for reproduction. And then every single month that it doesn't happen, it is also this source of failure, you know, and, and sex is such a private thing as well that it, you know, it's, it is, you know, attached to our self-worth and there are so many, you know, fear of rejection, fear, you know, know fear like our bodies and and all of these different fears like and so it bubbles all to the surface so any kind of insecurity that you had about sex to begin with it's amplified at this point in time so I always say to people communication you know like the age- communication, communication is key to this.

So you'll be struggling. And what I didn't realize was that my husband was struggling as well. But we didn't talk about that. It was just this internal struggle and this frustration. And I thought that it was just because he didn't want to have sex with me. And he was feeling so much pressure because I was like this commander, you know, like, right now, let's do it. And, you know, the poor guy was scared. So, you know, I think it is really important to make sure that, you know, you both know where each other stands so having some really good conversations about how it feels and you know what each you are going through and putting yourself in

their in their shoes as well I used to just think this is any guy's dream you know like why on earth does he not want to have sex with me like sex on tap at this point in time you know like why on earth isn't this happening but yes there was so much stuff going on inside of him and of course because I was putting so much pressure on him he was feeling it as well so so yes communication you know keeping on like that goal you know the goal still needs to be an orgasm. And I think that we lose that after a while. I love that. Can you just say this again? Please say that again. So the goal, the goal still needs to be to have an orgasm for both of you. You know, it can't just be all of this pressure for your partner that they have to you

know well they have to orgasm like the pressure's on them but I think if you put the you know the idea in your head that I am doing this for for my pleasure as well then I think that that can take you outside of your head a little bit as well now the reason why we tend not to make it about the orgasm is because we change up our sex routine for ovulation. Of course, you know, obviously we have to have it at certain times of the month. And, you know, quite regularly, I mean, I went into it thinking, right, I have to have sex every single day,

right when I know that I'm ovulating and it has to be now. And it doesn't have to be like that. You know, it could be, you know, a couple of days either side of once or twice, you know, per month, maybe three times at that point in time. But we change it. And if you're a morning sex person, then all of a sudden, if you find out that you're ovulating, you have to have sex at nighttime. So it's screwed up your whole, pardon the pun, it's screwed up your whole normal sex routine as well. So you're having sex at different times. And of course, you're not giving it the amount of time it deserves you know like if you

find that you're ovulating and it's before work you're like okay I've got to have a quickie now in order to do that so I think it is about you know showing a little bit of restraint a little bit of patience going it's okay if we wait until the evening in order to have sex. It's also a great idea as well that, you know, as a woman, obviously we are the ones that know when we are ovulating. And so it can feel a little bit, you know, stripping of the male, you know, that, that all of a sudden we're telling them what to do in the bedroom all of a sudden, you know, so a good idea is to number one work out whether your partner wants to know whether you're ovulating or not or whether you know you just take the lead and you know initiate the sex or a really good technique a very cute technique is when you know

that you're ovulating put a little sticky note on the bathroom mirror with a love heart or something like that. And so he then knows to initiate sex in the next, you know, 24 hours or so. So it's not putting so much pressure on everyone. And he doesn't feel like, you know, he's just this vehicle and all you want is his sperm. So those are some little tweaks that you can make. There's a whole lot of other stuff to try to keep it exciting and things like that. But it is a really tough time. You know, sex can become a really big source of anxiety on this journey. Yeah. I remember a doctor telling me at one point he said look just just forget about it for six months and just go off and enjoy yourselves

and have sex and I and this was a fertility doctor and I remember looking at him and thinking do you have any idea what you're talking about here because that's yeah it's much more complex and nuanced than that and vulnerable too you know I remember a couple of months I just want to name this in case there are people listening who might have experienced something like this there were a couple of months when I thought right I just need to dress up for him and that's gonna you know change this whole game up and and so and it was so vulnerable because I did not feel like getting dressed up in lingerie you know and I and I did I pushed myself through it because I wanted to try and make this fun again and it was just a disaster because he could feel that underneath you know

everything that I was doing was this was still this pushing energy of but we need to have sex now and then you know we just end up feeling not sexy at all and um yeah it was it's very vulnerable and very tender and I love your advice and your guidance that you've given and I think it's just kind of a month by month going as easy easily as you can on yourself yeah and realizing it that you're both in that together, you know, and that's really important is making sure that you're still talking about it as well. And, you know, there will be moments on it where you talk about afterwards and we'll have a good laugh. I had to take a semen sample for Craig into like into our fertility clinic and it was the clinic was in the city where I was working so I was like right I'm gonna have to take it on the train to work you know and deposit it at the fertility clinic and I remember you know he's on in the bathroom you know doing a thing and I'm

kind of like looking at the watch going my train's about to leave I need to get this sample I'm like hi I need any help and um and yeah I remember eventually got it done had to race to the train and I'm sitting on the train with a cup of his sperm in my handbag trying to keep it warm while all of the train passengers were completely unaware you know and then having to walk to the fertility clinic with this sperm in my handbag and those are the moments where you're just kind of like oh my goodness I never imagined that this would happen you know and while it is traumatic at the time, you do actually, I think it is important that sometimes you do allow yourself a moment to look back and go, okay, that was pretty funny. If someone had watched us, if this was a movie of

us and people had seen this or heard some of the conversations that we had they would laugh and I think that as serious and devastating and grief-stricken as this is there are a lot of moments when you're like you just have to laugh right now because it is so hideous yes and speaking of hideous and moments when you have to laugh let's move on to the pre-menstrual phase which can get really messy and challenging with a lot of anger I know for many people and definitely for me that comes up so I really needed to like make sure that my sense of humor bottom was switched on at this time of the month let's talk about the anger and the sense of unfairness that can come with infertility you know your book is the injustice of infertility how can we manage the rage love that you use that

word rage because that is exactly how it feels and I'll be honest with you it didn't matter where I was at in my cycle by that stage I was just just angry. I was really angry and bitter and jealous and all of those different things. Obviously, I'm naming a whole lot of different emotions, but at the time, I just saw it as anger. I was really, really angry at absolutely everyone around me, at myself, at whatever higher power at the universe, at God or whatever that I was having to go through that. So I'm very familiar with anger. And I also know that if you don't do something with it, then it sits there and it manifests and it does not go away. It festers. So I do have a process that I like to work through. I'm very process driven. I love a

little checklist of, okay, what do I do next? So the first step with anger, and this is for me, this is what works for me, is that we need to allow ourselves to actually feel it. We get caught up in this, you know, toxic positivity of, I just need to be grateful. I just need to be hopeful. I just need to, you know, be, you know, feel good. I need to believe I need to. And so what we try to do is we, we try to drown it in positivity and that's a bandaid. So that's not going to do anything at all. So the most important thing is to actually feel it and acknowledge that it's okay to be angry. It isn't fair.

And that's why I name a book, The Injustice of Infertility. It is not fair. And you have a right to be angry that you're having to do the stuff that you need to do in order to get pregnant. That's okay. You have a right to be angry. So feel it. The next thing is about owning it. A lot of the time, what we will do when we feel anger is we need to look at, okay, who am I going to blame or who am I going to take it out on? So we're feeling anger. And next thing our mother-in-law says to us,

why don't you just adopt? And all of a sudden it's like, I am angry at my mother-in-law. Whereas in fact, you know, I mean, she obviously said a shitty thing that she shouldn't have said. But, you know, when we redirect our anger at someone else, we're not owning it. We've just put it on them, you know. So it's really important that we don't blame other people for our anger, that we keep it with ourselves. And that's also very empowering as well, because it means that once we own it, we can deal with it. We can't deal with it, you know, when we're taking it out on our partner or anything like that, because that just drives extra emotions added to that. Then, of course, we're going to have to go and apologize or we're guilty or, you know,

then we feel even shittier than we do. So it's about feeling it, owning it, and then meeting where it is. As I said before, you know, sure, you can try to throw a bit of gratitude on top of anger, but it is not even going to make a dent. We need to meet anger at the same intensity. So I always say to people, like sprint, like if you can go for a sprint, you know, up a hill or something like that, or if you can take a boxing class or, you know, just punch stuff. There's rage rooms that you can go to where you can smash stuff. There is down the road from us, there is an axe throwing place that you can go to which I am dying to try out as well but you know throwing rocks into into a stream or something like that just something physical so that you can shift it and so you can meet it where it is so that's really important to be able

to do and then once you've released a little bit of that, it's about digging a little bit deeper because in reality, while anger is really a surface emotion, what is underneath is the stuff that allows us to heal. So underneath my anger, all of those years was hurt. It was jealousy. It was pity. I felt weak. It was sadness. sadness it was grief it was all of those different things all of those emotions that we really don't want to feel because they make us feel really weak and so what we do is we'll wrap it up and we'll wrap it in anger because it makes us feel strong you know at least if I was angry I felt like I I was, I was going to say in control, but no, I wasn't in control, but it felt more comfortable to me than admitting that I was jealous or that I was hurting. So, you know, dig a little bit deeper and actually identify what it is. And a lot of

the stuff that I do on Instagram is actually saying what people are feeling. And when you see your own words written on a post or something like that, you immediately connect with that and go, oh my goodness, that is what I have been feeling. And all of a sudden you feel this release automatically because you're like, oh my goodness, goodness that was it and now I know what it is and now I can move on from it so that allows us to release it as well so that's kind of like a bit of a process that you can work through with anger but it is really important to be able to to work through that cycle you know and it's like this ongoing cycle as well because there's there's going to be a lot of anger and things that come up on your journey so it is about continually working through that process the same as grief you know

it's a continual process that you have to work through in order to to heal and feel a little bit lighter there's a really exciting resource here which is the menstrual cycle itself so the beauty of the cycle is that when you cultivate an intimacy with it it won't allow you to get lost in the toxic positivity because the pre-menstruum will keep coming back around and around and that's when we move from focusing on the you know the outside to turning more towards towards ourselves which is why so much of the rage can come up and why so much of the grief can come up so in that way our menstrual cycle is our ally here pushing us every month to go okay turn in turn in face what you're feeling surrender find a way to surrender into it and to express the grief.

Yes. Oh my goodness. I had never thought of it like that. Of course. But a lot of the time we don't, you know, because we, we, you know, longer on this journey, we really do disconnect from our bodies and our cycles and things like that. As much as we have to connect with it in terms of well I need to have sex at this point in time we really do disconnect from it um but that yeah I like that yeah there was there are so many skills that I think menstrual cycle awareness can cultivate for example holding the tension you know that's something that we have to do in the premenstrual because we don't know each month if we are pregnant or not so you have to simultaneously go well I feel premenstrual that probably means I'm not pregnant but I could be pregnant who knows you're in that two-week wait every month and I found that by connecting to my cycle it helps me to do things like holding the tension in moments like that but there is there's one more topic I'd love to get to Jen as we're wrapping up which is you're totally right we need to deal with the anger we need to own our anger and deal with

ourselves and people can be really freaking triggering and so I think it's important for us to look at this too you know there are people who haven't experienced infertility can say all kinds of things we've alluded to them throughout this conversation in an effort to try and help so for example you just need to relax and go on a holiday or well my friend did xyz and got pregnant straight away have you tried that or as you said with your I think it was someone in your family, you can always adopt or the worst one, but there's a reason for this. Everything happens for a reason. Yeah, it's meant to be.

And, you know, when people said that to me, I just, I mean, I have to laugh looking back at it because I just look at them and go, you don't understand what you're doing right now. Because not only are you missing the point completely, but you're alienating me and making me wrong in your desire to create connection with me right now. So I sort of a two part question, really. One is what to do, how to hold ourselves when we're faced with these comments because we're going to get them a lot because not everyone's experienced this and then secondly how how can you advocate for yourself when you might be feeling full of grief and not strong how can you find a way to communicate with these people? Yeah. So it's really hard because I always say, unless you have walked this journey, you'll never truly be able to understand,

you know, what, what it feels like. So we do spend a lot of our time and energy trying to explain to people what we're going through and how this feels and why we can't go to the baby shower and why we just cried and had to run out of the room when someone announced that they were pregnant we spend so much of our time and energy trying to explain to people and I think that's because we're trying to explain to people. And I think that's because we're trying to justify our reactions as well. So I usually say, first of all, to anyone, you don't have to justify your reactions, your emotions, how you are feeling, what you are thinking, what you are doing, like the process that you are taking, whether you're going down IVF or natural, you don't have to explain or justify to anyone anything that you are doing. And that alone can release a lot of it because we do lose a lot of

our energy in trying to justify.. If we can bring it back and keep on reminding ourselves, this is normal. I am feeling what I need to be feeling. There is nothing wrong with me in the way that I'm reacting. People merely don't get it because they haven't been on that journey. So number one is dropping the rope and not trying to fight with people over it. Number two is, and this is a really hard one, I found this really hard, trying to show a little bit of compassion for them as well. You know, they don't understand. And some people are able to support you without having gone through it. And some people are able to support you without having gone through it and some people aren't and I think that that is really important to understand as well trying to show them a little

bit of compassion a little bit of love and then a big thing in anything as i was saying before you know like if our energy is low our ability to see a pregnancy announcement to you know react to an insensitive comment because they're all out there you know we can't create a world where there are no insensitive comments i have posted so many times stop asking women when they are going, you know, like when they're going to have a baby. And there's always going to be people who ask that question. So it's not about changing the world. And by all means, I think it is really important that we do advocate for ourselves that we are able to, you know know when we have a moment of strength you know like explain to people this could be an insensitive thing to say you know this isn't okay but it's not our

responsibility also to educate you know the community like I love this role that I have taken on now because I have the strength to be able to advocate for women through this journey. But while you're actually on the journey, it's really hard to be able to stand up. Some people can, you know, they can stand up and go, no, this is not on, this is the boundary. But there are those of us who are just so deep in the grief that we take it and we run to the bathroom and cry. And that's okay. You know, so I think it's always comes back to looking after yourself, making sure that you're getting enough sleep, making sure that you're, you know, that you're looking after yourself so that you are able to be a little bit more resilient and it's like that anger we have to own this you know we have to own how we're feeling and instead of

blaming others you know let's work on ourselves because you can't change other people you can't you just can't you know and we can spend our whole lives trying to do that or we can redirect and start on working on ourselves and working on those triggers as well having said that though you don't have to always just you know work on your triggers sometimes it's enough to go you know what I've got a boundary and we do we do get to know the people who continually ask us the same question over and over again and and it's okay to walk away from them or you know um just don't hang out with them at a party that you're going to so you're able to preempt you know I think that we always get surprised by people sometimes even though they do the same thing over and over and over again you know whereas we need to learn to be able to go okay

I know this is going to happen so number one I'm going to have a response prepared because I know that they are actually going to ask me this question or disengage and don't even you know don't even go to that party or don't even hang around them at all. So those are a few things. A big thing also is the preparation work. So, you know, you would know the questions that you get asked all of the time. So it can help to have some responses lined up as well for those occasions and and that way you know if you get asked the insensitive question or you know do you have any children you can say yeah I've got a puppy dog and then

move on you know and then walk out of the conversation or you know excuse yourself that you have to go and get a drink if the conversation goes towards, you know, who's pregnant or who's not or whatever's happening. I think that we forget that we get to control the conversation as well to a degree. And if we don't want to be engaged, there's nothing wrong with us walking out of a conversation that's not going in the right direction that we want it to that's such sweet permission thank you Jennifer I would love for you to share how our listeners can connect with you if they're resonating with what you're sharing yes absolutely as you said I am over on Instagram that's where I love to be and my Instagram handle is Ms Jennifer Robertson so Ms Jennifer Robertson and I also have a community over there as well called Your Pregnancy Haven

as well and also you can find my website same names www.jenniferrobertson.co or www.yourpregnancyhaven.co as well. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Jennifer. This has been full of golden nuggets of wisdom and support and reassurance and affirmation and permission. I know it's going to be a profound resource for lots of people, just as you were for me when I was going through this. So thank you so much. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you so much for raising awareness and being a voice as well. Thank you for joining us today and for being part of this community. If you're currently experiencing infertility, I want to pause for a moment to send you my love and support and encouragement as you navigate the rollercoaster of emotions, of treatments, of processes, of grief and rage and longing.

It's just so incredibly hard. And I want to say that I see you and I'm rooting for you and I hope that there was some inspiration some solace some encouragement in this episode today so we'll be back next week as always we'd be really grateful if you left a review on apple podcasts and yeah we'll be back next week and until then keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.