The Menstruality Podcast - Self Care in Menopause and Your Second Spring (Kate Codrington)

Episode Date: February 17, 2022

What if we already know what will help us through menopause? What if it’s the self care we overlook, or don’t do enough off? What if we don’t need an expert to give us a top ten list to surviving menopause? Instead of perpetuating the myth that we need to give our power to an outside authority in order to feel better, Kate Codrington, author of Second Spring: A Self Care Guide to Menopause wants to place the power firmly back in our hands as we enter the often disorientating, challenging menopause journey. In this liberating, culture-shifting conversation, we explore:What is our Second Spring? Who are we after menopause? And how can we harness the wisdom we’ve gained from previous cycles and transitions to navigate this shift?How menopause asks us, very intensely, to come into relationship with ourselves and keeps at us until we begin a more subtle kind self care that happens in small moments.Why we deeply need to re-write the menopause narrative, and colour in the vibrant, creative life that happens in our Second Spring. ---Registration is open for our 2022 Menstruality Leadership Programme. You can check it out here. https://www.redschool.net/menstruality-leadership-programme-2022---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @red.school - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolKate Codrington: @kate.codrington - https://www.instagram.com/kate.codrington

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hi there, today we are talking about menopause and self-care and our guest has a radical and

liberating and honest and funny approach. What if we already know what's going to help us through menopause and what if it's the self-care that we overlook and that we don't do enough of what if we don't actually need another expert to give us a top 10 list to surviving menopause instead of perpetuating the myth that we need to give our power to an outside authority in order to feel better in menopause. Author Kate Codrington wants to place the power firmly back in our hands as we enter this often disorientating journey. Kate is a menopause mentor, a facilitator, a writer and she's been a therapist for almost 30 years. She's a pioneering spirit, she was the first to graduate as a red school menstruality medicine circle facilitator and in this culture shifting conversation we explore her first book second spring the guide

to self-care for menopause which is being published by harper collins today february the 17th 2022 i found this conversation about our second spring so revitalizing so sit back and enjoy a feast of an episode. Welcome Kate to the Menstruality Podcast. How are you feeling today in the run-up to your book launch? Thank you Sophie and thank you for inviting me I feel like I'm coming home somehow to do this recording with you to be embraced again by Red School so I feel kind of delicious me too so we start this podcast always with a cycle check-in and you're now beyond your cycling years so I'd love to ask you if and how you experience your cyclicity in this phase of your life oh wow well that's going to take up the whole hour I think because instantly I start to question your statement.

You'll be on your cycling years. And I know what you're, I know what you mean. You mean I see what I assume you mean that I no longer have a menstrual cycle, but I am firmly in the grip. I have firmly gripped by cycles in every sense, in every way. So right now, well, maybe I could tell the people who are listening that I used to count what day it was. I think I got up to sort of 400 and something, and then I just lost interest.

And it was at the point that I to sort of 400 and something and then I just lost interest and it was at the point that I lost interest in what the number was that I knew I had kind of lost my grip on my cycling years in a good way I'd let go I mean by that I mean let go and so that that was quite a you know quite a few years ago now four four years, five years maybe. I'm not very sure. I am seized daily by the creative cycle. So I'm right now heading up towards midsummer with this book, with it being released in two weeks' time as we record this. So I'm kind of expanded and excited and a

bit giddy and a bit unable to concentrate and full of sort of wanting to expand, you know, just my drawings are full of it flying into the world. In my drawings, the books are birds that fly away to different corners and land in different nests. So it's a very summery feeling. So there's that going on. I'm also just at the beginning of a new project, and I'm like a swallow on a wire. So I'm just kind of teetering on the brink and it's, it's just, so I'm holding my breath. It's like,

should I, do I jump now? Oh, I can't quite. Oh, so it's that very springy, new, fresh. What if, could it possibly be, what is it? What is it? What is, you know, so there's that. So I'm also gripped in that cycle. And more down to earth, day to day, I am deeply held by the circadian rhythm. So the early mornings are my spring and summer and the afternoons are my autumn and winter and that is quite solidly predictable that my energy will change in that way through the day and many other ways so yes so I am not beyond my cycling years so clearly wow thank you thank you so as you mentioned when this podcast comes out it's literally going to come out on the same day as this beautiful book that you're publishing second spring the self-care

guide to menopause congratulations in advance I'd love to hear what inspired you to write this book. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm so excited I can hardly speak. Well, I wrote it because I wanted to sort my head out. In the mainstream, there's a very particular view of menopause that I don't find particularly helpful. It's quite restrictive and mostly negative. And my experience was not that. My experience was very different. And by that, I don't mean that I was tripping along with joy and it didn't impact me physically or emotionally emotionally because it did. A lot of it was extremely challenging,

but it was challenging in a growthful way. So it was very different. And what I see in my clients and retreat participants and in the people in my community is that they also have a different story to the mainstream narrative. And I'm, by writing, I wanted to write it to try and organise what was happening in my mind. Writing is how I think through stuff. My head is very busy and I have lots of tangled spaghetti between my ears. But when I write, it requires that I order my thoughts and I think through things clearly.

And I can look at the page and I can say, oh, this, then that. And so initially it was a way of figuring stuff out. And then that changed into sharing this different vision, this more hopeful vision, a more growthful vision of menopause, so that other people could be reassured. Other people could, even if they sniff the possibility that they might be able to trust the process just a tiny sniff like like a bit of jasmine on the breeze and on a spring breeze and that the help that they need is within them but given a little bit of quiet and a little bit of nourishment and space

our body wisdom will speak clearly about what we need with a bit of quiet and nourishment and space, our body will speak clearly about what we need. I was just listening to one of your podcasts on life and inside job about self-care because as you mentioned in the podcast, it's a very overused word and understood in a million different ways. And I love the way you spoke about

self-care and obviously self-care is a big part of this book it's in the subtitle could you could you share your perspective on self-care? It's a juicy one isn't it it's completely devalued now. What I mean by that is the ongoing process of being a better friend to yourself. I could say this in different ways. I think the most accessible way is being like your own best friend. What would your best friend advise that you do right now how could you let yourself off the hook right now so that might mean um if for me that means that's that okay i bring that into the right into the moment for me that means right now dropping my shoulders a bit and sitting back in my chair a bit more because i was leaning in really close it means um yeah feeling into my body a bit more because i was leaning in really close it means um yeah feeling into my body a bit more and not gripping so tightly and i i think that this this is

this is becoming clearer and clearer to me that a lot of the difficulty we have especially around menopause and the care the way that we care ourselves in general and that this shows up very clearly in menopause is the tightness with which we hold on to things the tightness with which we hold on to our self-care oh i must stop eating sugar and drinking gin really tightly you know and you know, it's helpful not to drink alcohol and sugar because they have an effect on the body. But the tension with which we hold onto things, the tension with which we hold onto roles, identity, ways of being, how other people should be, that tension,

giving ourselves a tiny bit more space and softness around the grip with which we try and hold on to things is the ultimate self-care I think as you're talking about that grip I'm reflecting on a couple of the initiations that I've experienced in my life over the last five years and I'm looking at menopause here as an initiation and thinking about how I mean how hard initiations are I'm talking about the initiation through infertility and then the initiation to becoming a mother eventually but they both of those initiations they did something they they softened that tension in me and I notice it now on the other side that I if when I try to hold on as tightly as I used to and to control things I I just can't in the same way and I wonder about that you know that in terms of

menopause the initiation of menopause and that tension yeah you're spot on you're absolutely spot on it teaches you to let go and she's she's a hard mistress you know because I I was I was um you know I've been a therapist for nearly 30 years Sophie I'm terribly body aware you know my ego is the size of the planet basically I thought I was so sorted right in with around birth and around menopause, it's like, yeah, well, I know all the stuff, you know, because I've done the training and da-di-da-di-da, and I know I have to stop and I know I have to let go, so I stopped and let go. But at each point, she kicked my arse and said,

no, you really have to let go. You really have to let go. You really have to let go. And she keeps at us, you know. And the result of that is that you go, okay, I am really not in control here. And how do we take care of ourselves with that? I mean, I'm asking for a friend here, just because I don't feel very in

control in my life at the moment it's hard you know especially because we're all in the grip of this gigantic not being in control because we're living inside an unprecedented pandemic you know how what what does self-care look like when it comes to just meeting the bloody unknown every day every moment of every day it means i think it means doing the best we can with what we've got um and that will be different to for everyone i'm a big fan of um comforting practices um there's a better word there's a fancier word, which I can't think of, along the lines of nervous system soothing type stuff. So I quite often, and I have now a blanket wrapped around my kidneys. I quite often like feeling textures that I find that really soothing and orientating.

I like to feel my breath. I like to breathe out. That's quite nice. But going back to the body wisdom thing that we started with, we already know what those things are. You already know what the things are that help you with the unknown you know I have stuff that I do but it's the stuff usually that we're doing anyway but we overlook it's you know it's it's usually the stuff that you do probably don't do enough of yes and you know what that is you don't need you know you don't need me to come and tell you about what you know self-care for menopause and i can give you

10 top tips i've been doing that for years but i don't think it's that helpful because it's just perpetuating this situation where we give away our power to other people we go we go to the experts to say oh what do I do about this well you already know push it right back I was flipping through your fantastically creative and colorful and gorgeous Instagram feed which I recommend anyone in well anyone but especially anyone in this menopausal phase to go and explore and there was a lovely quote from Sophie Fletcher who I think is great from Mindful Menopause and she said that your book is like the artist's way for menopause it's right there beside you guiding you pointing out landmarks suggesting detours to explore without telling you which path to take

and I love this about you Kate how you are consistently steadily putting the power back in each individual's hands as they go through menopause and life and as you're saying it's such a powerful counter to this sort of google culture of how do i get through this like find some experts tell me the answer when actually as you say the answers are right there inside us well in a way it's so human because well it is it's very human because we're in pain. Something hurts, either physical pain or there's something we don't like in ourselves. And so we want to not feel that. So we escape outside of ourselves. You know, we take the pain to somebody else.

We give it to Google. We do. We get busy dissociating, essentially. And I do, too. You know, this is just what humans do. It's normal. It's normal. You know, I sort of get busy on Google and, hell,

I have a whole library of books. I'll go and see what Susan Weed says I should do or somebody else. And I typically, and I think this is true for most people, we find out too much information, get overwhelmed, and don't do any of it. And it's all a big avoidance practice. It's all a big avoidance practice, because we already know and we, it will be something along the lines of staying with what is getting curious, getting interested in how the whatever it is is presenting in our lives and understanding more about it because life in general but at menopause very intensely is asking us to come into a relationship with ourselves that's that's that's what the nudge is that's how i understand the nudge so moving away to you know there are people with knowledge that can help

there's no doubt about that that's how hell that's how i earn my living but um the best kinds of professionals will be nudging you back into yourself, giving you options and saying, there's this and this and this, and what is, which way do you want to proceed? How does that feel for you? Or if you're more in the mind body area, how does that feel for you? What, what, what does it, what wants to be expressed here and how can you create more space or develop a more loving relationship with whatever it is I love how you're really speaking about the small moments the textures that we're feeling

the way our body's moving as we're breathing you know when you said our breathing out is nice I did a nice exhale and I was like it really is nice it is isn't it let's talk about this term second spring because I'm very excited because I saw that Davina McCall recently shared that her 50s are her second spring and this is a term that you've coined that now Davina McCall mccall is using which is really exciting i know oh my freaking god yeah i spat my breakfast out when i read that i was like oh it's um phenomenal i mean i i i and and also in red school um you know we bang on almost nonchalantly about changing the narrative about women's health about periods and about menopause and there it is in action you know it's I was just so excited because someone like that who's very you know she's a celebrity if you if you're outside the UK she's she's a television celebrity and she's a menopause spokesperson and she's 54.

And I'm just so happy because there it is. The narrative is changing. She didn't she chose not to use postmenopause. She chose to frame it as a second spring, a sort of right. Oh, anyway, what did you ask me me I've now lost the plot I'm just so excited about Davina I actually didn't ask you anything I was just really excited about Davina but what I would like to ask you is tell us the story of how you came up with that phrase well it's not it's not it's not me that came up with it it's um the phrase comes from Chinese medicine so it's been used for again it's been used for, again, it's been around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. The story goes that I have worked very closely

with my dear friend Leora Leboff at Womankind, and we trained at Red School together, and we trained in medicine circles together at Red School. And we were running retreats where people can move through the seasons of their life in an embodied way. So there's a big circle on the floor with dividing lines to mark out the different seasons of life. People can move mindfully from their first spring, which would be their teen years after Menach, through into their life summer years. So kind of late 20s, 30s, when we're feeling more expansive and wanting to manifest stuff in the world,

and into the autumn of their perimenopause, and the winter of their menopause. So we were kind of mapping this out. And then we come to, well, then what? And I think this is something that happens quite a lot with people who are getting into cycle awareness. But it's a bit like pregnancy and birth, don't you think? Your whole attention gets pulled into pregnancy and the birth. And then you kind of don't have no clue about postnatal. It's like, oh, my God, I can't what what do I do now? And it's the same kind of thing with medical as it's cycling and the periods and it's all this and all that. And it's all going on. Now

there's menopause and that's so huge. And then Oh, well, then you're old, right? Okay,'s this real kind of the collective blindness that is in the world in general about aging i would theorize is also quite often visible in the cycle awareness world yeah yeah because i hear that again again again and again from people who are studying and people who are training that oh but what do you do then how do you you know it's implicit in your question about post cycling it's like well what do you do you know it's like this is blank and you know part of the book is to is to bring vibrancy and life and colour and three dimensions into that place. So the phrase that we came up with was second spring. So the second spring has the qualities of the first spring.

So exploration, discovering, who are you? Like you come out of the kind of washing machine of menopause and you get like blinking in the light going bloody hell well who am I now what what so there's a lot of stumbling around and falling on your face I can I can testify to that um and worrying about worrying about well I haven't got this sorted and so-and-so is looking so glamorous and I should be blah, blah. And, you know, all the same, all the really similar themes to being in teenage years. But then of course, there's a second summer. And I, what I invite you to do is to go and have a little peek when you're wandering around your neighborhood and look at keep keep

an eye out for women in their late 60s and early 70s and you probably won't see that many because they're off having a good time they're dealing with shit or they're throwing pots or they're climbing mountains or they're having unsuitable sex or they're i don't know what they're doing because they don't put it on instagram because they're having too much fun or they're having unsuitable sex or they're, I don't know what they're doing because they don't put it on Instagram because they're having too much fun or they're tending their gardens or they're engaged with their grandchildren, you know, they're engaged with new life. They're really, really deeply engaged and manifesting their spirit and the world in a thousand ways.

And then, of course, there is a second autumn, and I witnessed it in some of my friends. There's a process of giving away stuff, of giving away possessions, getting rid of possessions, of reflection and all the sort of autumnal qualities and activities and presence. And then a second winter where we're approaching death. And I see that now in my, in my mother-in-law, she's very frail. And it's like the, you can, you can just see it. So my, my mission, my mission that I have chosen to accept is to do a big colouring in job. And the effect of that, I hope, is to reassure people who are menstruating at the moment that there is a whole load of stuff going on.

There is a whole load of stuff going on post-menopause. There is so much fun and so much creativity and so much vibrancy available to us post-menopause. And for the people who are in menopause and in second spring and early second spring to really validate their experience of life. If you're in menopause or you're approaching it and you're looking for support we heartily invite you to visit redschoolonline.net and register for our free menopause mini course where Alexandra will guide you to curb the crisis of exhaustion to resource yourself and to rewrite the cultural messaging of this transition so you can have the best possible menopause experience. You can find the course at redschoolonline.net and look for the menopause mini course.

I was really lucky in my 30s that I was working for an environmental organization called Tree Sisters. And it just so happened that the mission of Tree Sisters, which is to reforest the tropics, seemed to call most to people, I'd say, according to your description, who are in their second spring and second summer. So I got to be around lots of women in their 50s, 60s,s 70s and it was a privilege for me because I got to experience this vitality and vibrancy and color and freedom and audaciousness and don't give a bleepness and it was so fun and so liberating and it's made me look forward to that phase of my life in a way that many people perhaps might not yeah that is a great training yeah and they were also doing really big stuff

like these were the it was when I realized that it's so important for us to like you said to do this coloring in I love that phrase this coloring in and shifting this narrative around aging because in so many ways women and people of all genders in this phase of life have exactly what we need to turn around the tanker of this crazy ship that we're on you know and that wasn't the right way to say it but you know I mean there's there's real lived experience and wisdom and the kind of freedom that you're speaking about here yeah absolutely and it's I'm not at all surprised to hear you say that there were lots of people in second spring and summer involved in tree sisters There is something about, it's physiological, but also psychological shift that happens so that we are more able and more willing to deal with the wider concerns. We can see what needs to happen more clearly.

And that's to do with changes in the frontal lobe. Don't ask me for detail because I can never remember. We can see what needs to happen more clearly. And that's to do with changes in the frontal lobe. Don't ask me for detail because I can never remember. But it means that we're not, the changes in the brain mean that we might not be as quick as a 20-year-old, but we get the advantage of the bigger picture. We can see more what needs to happen. And also, we don't care we don't give a shit anymore about upsetting people and also we have exceedingly good boundaries and yeah there is you know in evolutionary terms there's there's things you can see like the um the orca whales it's the grandmothersmothers who have the knowledge to find the fish.

And there are some aphids in Japan that perform a similar role about keeping the whole of the community safe. You know, and there's a smell of that. And I think that people get, that can be quite intimidating as well for people. It's like, oh, God, I have to come into this big calling and do all these big exhausting things when all i really want to do is lie down it can be it can feel a bit of a burden so i want to really affirm that um our calling if you want to use that phrase is to be more of yourself and that can mean watching the birds or observing the change in light or doodling or whatever it is that makes you happy let's talk about that word calling and I'd love to hear about your experience

in you know it sounds like calling isn't quite isn't quite the word that you love but I'd love to hear about your experience of this coming through menopause and into your second spring well again it's part it's part of that it's part of that tenderizing process because I thought I knew Sophie I was so arrogant you know I because at the time I was in perimenopause I was a therapist I was a body worker I was working with a belly massage and healing and you know all that all that sort of area um so I I you know if you had asked me that and I feel you know I'm I'm asked me that, and I feel, you know, I'm blushing pink. I would have said something like, well, you know, it's my calling is to connect women to their wounds or something like that. And I meant that sincerely and genuinely.

And then that's what I did. And, you know, it kind of worked out pretty well for lots of people and stuff. But again, it has that sort of, it's very, this human tiny brain, like the universe has all sorts of other plans in store. And for me to be so certain about that, it's a bit like somebody hanging onto a life raft in the storm, because it feels safer than letting go. Because I've no clue,

I've no bloody clue what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm just bumbling around, following my nose, bumping into furniture, doing the best I can and doing what feels fun and pleasurable. See it's much easier and simpler and altogether more complicated than I thought. But in order to get to this point, I've had to let go of who I think I am. Let go of trying to be nice, trying to be a good therapist. Let go of knowing stuff. Oh, my God. Let go of thinking I know things oh my goodness it's like I really don't know anything

this is there's an interesting paradox now because you've just written a what I haven't read it yet but I know it's a brilliant book so it's interesting that can we talk about that paradox there because yeah yes let's do that yeah I I'm with you in the like I don't know what I'm doing because I I don't know if it's right to compare these things but it's just I'm really relating to what you're saying because coming out of early motherhood and sleep deprivation I'm not who I was before and I don't have a freaking clue what I'm doing every day I feel exactly the same fumbling bumbling random ideas come into my head should I do this should I do that I don't know I'm too tired I don't know what's going on so I can really relate and see it and now I've lost the thread of my question so so back to the paradox

you simultaneously are holding space for yourself in this unknowing and writing profoundly brilliant books how does that work yes very good question I'm following my nose I'm just well okay I think it comes down to really practical daily stuff, like what is interesting and what is exciting. And one of the great teachers of menopause is exhaustion and tiredness because I don't have very much energy. For the small amount of energy I have, it has to be interesting and it has to be fun and if something i can't i i am incapable of pushing myself through stuff now

well if when i try i break for me that means i stop sleeping so if i am to live a a fulsome and juicy life then I have to do things that are fun and interesting otherwise I don't function so it's really down to getting up I mean you know I have a routine I have a family I have kids I have a partner and I have a house and you know stuff I have lots of stuff around so there's you know it's not like I live in a vacuum by any means but you know I get up and think well what what is what is interesting for me to do right now I know what a bloody privilege I mean that's insane it's just mad that I can do that but essentially that's what it is it's a different kind of prioritization that's happening yeah it's uh I imagine well I can see

because I know you that you are incredibly fruitful you know you are quite busy am I I mean busy is one way but the reason why I chose the word fruitful is because you are really creating and manifesting powerful things but it's coming from a different place it's coming from yeah a kind of different order of reality it sounds like I think so and it often doesn't make much sense but you know I can't it's just this thing of not being able to do very much I really can't do very much so it has to be you know it has to be fun but it also has to be efficient it has to be simple it has to be you know I have I have like shed loads of support and that that means the way I eat daily practice breathing stuff the way I treat myself the way I talk to myself

people around me meeting with friends peer groups professional supervision coming together in circles with with uh with peers all sorts of things to hold me in that so it's not as yeah it's it sounds too it sounds too easy to say i do what's fun i sound like some sort of crazy crazy inventor in a tower ascend that that's the ascent that's the core of the truth but there is a lot of other stuff going on around it too a lot of intention setting that's how I was understanding it I was what I was understanding was the place that the activity is coming from is different in you it's less perhaps less about pleasing others or about fitting into something or about like you said your ego you know being on on a certain path that it thinks is the right path and it's more about moment by moment engaging with reality as it is yeah absolutely life is short you know and again post-menopause there is there is

a feeling of the the brevity of life and I think that that was another, like, the most useful lesson for me. Life is really short. What are you going to do, Kate? One of the things that happened physically with me was my joints were swelling up. So I was, you know, I was working very, I was working energetically with people. I wasn't kind of kneading and releasing people's shoulders.

So it wasn't the physical work that was making my hands swell up. But I found that I was struggling to hold the kettle or pans of pasta or that kind of thing. So there was a real physiological shift happening and with some careful listening um it became really clear that I had to stop I had to stop that trajectory this trajectory that I had worked so hard I felt so delayed with parenthood because I had kids when I was in my late 30s I'd worked really hard to sort of establish myself and to do more training and find this, you know, the niche, the niche that we're supposed to, the niche that we're

supposed to find in career and self-employment, complementary therapy, Nirvana, where you find your niche and everything, you know, that I'd worked so hard for that and then I had to let it go and not know what was next. And the message came through very clearly. Do you want to be able to paint and draw in your old age? Because if I continue to work in this way, that will not be possible. So what do you want to do with your, what it Mary Oliver that that one wildlife I'm 54 56 my mum died at 60 something I don't intend to die in 10 years I'm going to stick around for a bit longer but um you know uh I could have 20 20 good years what am I going to do with that you know what really what am i going to do with that given that i have you know given that i have a fat fat load of privilege

here what is useful for me to do and fun so it's really i feel this fierceness this fierceness comes through me when i when i speak about it and that's meta that's post-menopause serious just living business yeah but this is why I personally would like to see many many many more second spring and second summer and second autumn and second winter actually women and people of all genders in leadership in every area of leadership because of this fierceness that I experienced firsthand in Tree Sisters and let's talk about support a question that was coming up for me was you were talking about the wobble from going from menopause into the second spring and how it could feel like teenage times what would you say to someone who's in the wobble and and is scared and it's feeling

scary um to reconnect with other cycles you've experienced so if you've had a menstrual cycle um you would have had if you if you've been cycling meant having a menstrual cycle through your life, you might have had 400 odd cycles, 400 odd times when you went from your period, from your bleed into a new cycle. So you've done it before. You will have started at a new school. Or started at a new job or started a new project or met with a new friend or you know whether whether or not you've had a menstrual cycle we all know this spring feeling so I think what's been useful for me is has been to reconnect with previous springs of all kinds of any kind and recall what was helpful what was not helpful you know was it helpful to go out to get completely pissed when I was 18 and had just moved house and go out all night and get lost in London probably not and so that was you know when I was 19 coming back to now you know

maybe I can go out for a short time, then come home and do something soothing and have a cup of tea. I mean, really on that level of small stuff, like really small stuff, it's the small stuff that works because what you, because that's what we're doing all day. The small stuff. It's not necessarily the big, sometimes it's the big things, the big shifts, but it's the small stuff that where the magic is, I think. I love that. So come back to other springtimes. I'm seeing, I'm imagining the image of a foal that's just been born and, you know, they're just so vulnerable. They're just, the legs are just so

long. And I relate to that because that's what I was like as a teenager it was just a long gangly thing but that that kind of feeling and um yeah we know that we know that in so many different ways yeah and you know nature is a great teacher we're in the UK now and it's the end of January and the buds are wrapped up tight you know they're tightly held they're there they've been there since autumn those buds but they're they're wrapped tightly and they're little I can't remember what they're called they're little wrappy things and they will wait until the time is right and sometimes they come out there's a warm patch and they come out too early and they get frosted and they some of them die and they fall back and then there's

regrowth you know then there's another cycle there's nature is such a great teacher what do we do about the fact that the world isn't exactly waiting to hold us in tenderness while we're going through this experience you know we don't live in a world that honors and dignifies this, this time in this moment yet. What do we do about navigating the world in this wobbly time? Well, actually I have, I'm quite directive. I have lots of opinions about this uncharacteristically turn off your social media, turn off the telly. Don't, don't buy mainstream newspapers.

Don't buy it. No, was gonna i was gonna name a right wing newspaper don't buy any newspapers because it's all it's all negative and um choose very carefully what channels of information you are open to because another thing that happens in menopause is that we are extremely permeable and i think in second spring too i think i still am in some ways really permeable to outside messages just as much i mean in no let's talk about menopause in menopause you are very permeable to outside messages and it's it's turn it off just turn it off and protect yourself from all that stuff because it's really not helpful and it takes you away from your feeling of how you are and the other thing to do is to uh look carefully at uh who is around you so some people we some people we can't separate from, and we might

have to turn their volume down a bit, or ask them to turn their volume down. But we can actively choose to hang out with people who support us. Hang out with people who do not judge how we are. Hang out with people who know not judge how we are, hang out with people who know that when we say I'm falling apart, this is it. I hate myself, that that is not all of who we are. You also hold the wholeness of us. So that might be, you know, that might be a friend that you already know,

or you might have to go and create or find those circles. There are, you know that might be a friend that you already know or you might have to go and create or find those circles there are you know menopause circles or circles of people who are coming together to share experiences and if if there's not one immediately available then you can create one you can you know that's what i did i was like oh i quite fancy that woman should i go and ask her to be my mate? That's how the Fuck It Club came about. So I made up the Fuck It Club. So it was me and a handful of friends and we met. I suppose you would say we were sitting in circle, but to say sitting in circle, it was the Fuck It Club.

It was far more fun than that but the same principle in that we there was space for each other to say what was happening and acceptance of whatever was just bliss and sort of bit by bit that sort of positivity can hold you through the process i guess the joy that the fun comes back here because if you're following your nose, you might suddenly go, well, you know, I really want to get my hands in some clay and never done it before. But that's a whole gateway to a whole new group of people who might be. Yeah. The people that you want to be. Yeah. How do you know that you're in your second spring?

Hmm. I wasn't sure for a while I had to ask other people how do I know so I remember going to Leora my colleague and saying do you think I'm insane to ask her to to observe from the outside Because of course on the inside, I was still, you know, mad as a box of frogs and full of uncertainty and who and what, and you know, just my normal everyday self that I've always been. But with a little kind of objectivity, she was able to say, this is different because um back back when i was in perimenopause and menopause and we were working together and she would go and she was she's she's

um she's in perimenopause now so she i'm kind of a little bit in advance of her. So when I was in perimenopause and she was still had a sort of more stronger, robust cycle, she'd go, oh, hey, Kate, we can do blah, blah. And we can run this workshop and blah, blah retreat. And I go, no. There wasn't any kind of discussion and I could barely manage to be polite about it. There was an absolute no about activity, about going out there, about busyness, about creating lots of work. And what changed in second spring was I was like, oh, well, that could be interesting. You know, I was able to, it's like opening the back door one morning

and feeling the sun on your heart and smelling, well, at the moment it's winter sweet that I can smell when I open my back door, which is a beautiful perfume, and going, oh, well, maybe I could go out. So there's this kind of, as I mentioned earlier, that sort of bird on the wire feeling like maybe I oh you're being called called out again I think I think that's a fairly universal experience from the right from the no I'm staying home to oh I could go out

you're such a a tonic in this world of maps and plans and three-step processes and you know this is do this and then this and these formulas that we can accidentally you know as we were talking about we all do it we can accidentally slipstream into thinking that that's what life is you're such a breath of fresh air because you're you're sitting here in the moment by moment majesty of this crazy paradox that we're all living inside of it's uh it's very refreshing to chat with you that's thank you for noticing that yeah and I have tried to do three-step processes but basically the reason that I am able to do that is because I'm awkward squad. What? What does that mean? Awkward squad, it's because I ask someone's advice and then I reject it and throw it

straight back in their face and won't play along. How dare you? I'm just playing at the bum really. It's like because I have years of not conforming. Great training. Yeah, it's great training. Yeah, I did the Red School leadership training when I was in perimenopause. And I was, you know, bloody hell, down the corridor.

Bloody hell, these cycling women. What have they got to complain about? I was awful. I mean, you you know like this awful teenage nightmare for everybody I've got two more questions and then I just want to ask you what else you want to say but one question I definitely want to ask is you spoke about this discovering exploring aspect of second spring how have you held yourself in this and what would you say to someone who's you know experiencing this curiosity and it might feel you know wild and disorientating how to yeah how to hold themselves I think I come back to what I've mentioned before is to hang out with people who love you who accept who you are and to I think that the process of menopause teaches us so much about not knowing because we don't know. That's one of the sort of core lessons that were given in that deep,

in that deep winter where we just don't know, we just don't know what's happening or who will be, or whether we'll ever get out of bed or, you know, and I think to, to really call on that, on that lesson of not knowing and hang back with hang out with your mates and hanging there's also something again about hanging back into the the sensation of of life moving around us of you know of leaning back into it leaning back into the cycle and letting life move us it's like we lean back into into the into the experience of life and then to allow it to

flow through us i think that's what that that's what's happened to me with this book process and that's what I observe with other people and it's the opposite of goals and striving and three-step processes because you're beyond that it's like yeah we've done that but we've been doing that to try to figure our way through this thing for quite for 50 something years now didn't worked okay sometimes not that effective you know the pushing the figuring out the mental processing doesn't work that well it's not all of all of who we are but when we can lean back into the cycles and allow things to come through us and then it gets a lot easier and a lot more interesting and which is why rivers and trees are so helpful yeah so my best mates rivers and trees final question if you you're clearly a visionary

you're very creative you you paint with your words can you paint us a picture of what the world could look like if the second spring was really given the space and the honouring and the colour that it deserves? You have the best questions. Okay, well, let's start with, you know, down-to-earth stuff. Pensions. Because many, a massive percentage of the population are living in poverty in their 50s and 60s and 70s

and have to keep on working and have to keep on doing jobs that are completely wearing them out. So the kind of, you know, the basis, the base has to be in financial parity in terms of pension, pension provision from the state and also, well, oh, God. And then, yeah, I mean, it goes all the way back into kind of, into childcare and the whole the whole damn thing. I'm not going to get into that because it's not that fun.

But, you know, unless unless we are supported in our second spring and our second cycle, say second life cycle. Then none of this can really happen. Then what we're experiencing is the urge and the longing and the desire without the energy or the means. So that is really important. And I also want to say that, make really clear that this isn't't this isn't about this isn't a a map for the privileged this is a map that operates within humans whether or not we have uh the fortune to have uh comfort in our lives or otherwise we're still going to be feeling this longing for newness post-menopause even when we don't have the opportunity so i you know and that and that has a particular kind of excruciating suffering

to it financial suffering and physical suffering too so i just kind of want to put that out there too i'm coming with all the negative stuff clearly i'm clearing the way Sophie, I'm clearing the way. So there's that too. So yes, so once we are financially supported, and the small, the giant question of inequalities is kind of cleared. So obviously, that's cleared, because you've given me my magic wand. What I would like to see is you know you remember with extension berlin they were they were talking about kind of people's what were they what did they call them people's forums people's parliaments is that right sounds right play the forums where people can come together and i i think that that kind of interact intergenerational interaction that is outside of hierarchy

would be really helpful so that the different people from different walks of life and different experiences and different ages can listen to each other and I think that that's that's something that we don't really have here so if you're lucky you might have an elder grandmother or grandfather or something but many of us live a long distance from our families and you know there isn't necessarily you had that experience in Tree Sisters, which was very nourishing. But I think more places, more forums, more sort of places where there is an idea exchange across generations would be really helpful. from the wisdom of the different generations because you know I'm I have a you know a particular vision of menopause and aging and and all that kind of stuff but I need I have teenagers and I need them to stop me from disappearing up my arse really

the sacred role of teenagers yeah absolutely and they have you know they have so many they have such a different worldview and so many bright ideas and I really feed off that and I would love I love hearing about the experience of people at different ages and different places in life and hearing different kinds of wisdom and I think from if there were more places like that that would be really helpful and I I'm not clearly having more elders in places of leadership would be a good a good thing and more women in their second springs and summers who are capable of sharing both their power and their vulnerability their humility and their wisdom together I find deeply inspirational but um I don't want that that's too that's too narrow a thing you know that doesn't give me permission to be who I am

that doesn't give me permission to bump into furniture and follow my nose which is you know where it's at for me yeah and out out of that kind of discussion then things can happen then things then things can emerge that are more fully formed as a collective I think everyone should go out and buy second spring the self-care guide to menopause today to drink in more of this and Kate are there other ways that you'd like to invite people to connect with you yes I'm I'm over on instagram at kate underscore codrington that's where i am mostly i've um i stopped using other social media pretty much yeah and i have my website is katecodrington.co.uk and there's yeah there's and there's loads of articles and yeah there's free courses there's a taking your menopause to work course about menopause away there's all

there's just like shed loads of stuff there to play with. I'll keep you going. Kate, is there a final word, sentence, thought you would like to leave us with about our second spring? Yeah, I think that the thing that I would like to leave you with is the thing that I started with is that what you seek is already there within you and you're doing really well you're doing really well well done

it sounds a bit patronizing but that's that kind of thing like i dragged myself out of bed this morning and i just about made it and then I shouted at my partner kids boss whatever it's like yeah well you got out of bed well done you know we're all doing the best we can with what we've got yeah so to give to know that whatever you need is within you given kindness and space can emerge and wherever you're at you're doing well thank you Kate I've enjoyed this immensely I feel fantastic after this conversation I feel liberated in so many ways good job done yeah that's a good day thank you for writing this book thank you so much for taking the time to be with us and um yeah best of luck telling coloring the world in around the second spring thank you sophie it's been absolute bliss thank you so much for joining us today we would so greatly appreciate it if you leave us a review

on apple podcasts it means that Apple shows the Mentorality Podcast to more people so more people can listen to our amazing guests. Okay, see you next week and until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.