The Menstruality Podcast - The Five Phases of Menopause (Alexandra & Sjanie)

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Once you’re in menopause, you appear to be off all the usual maps. You're cast off from a familiar shoreline onto a dark ocean of unknownness, with only the stars and the moon – your instincts, feelings and intuitions – to guide you. However, there is a map of sorts for the menopausal journey, a timeless archetypal pattern for transitioning this world between worlds, and it has an implicit order in five phases: Betrayal, Repair, Revelation, Visioning and Emergence.In today's episode, we look at the meaning and purpose of each phase, including all that you may experience and what it means, as well as stories from some of the many people we’ve worked with over the years (and a good dose of humour to see you through). We explore:Phase one of the menopause initiation, ‘Betrayal’, which can be a real dark night of the soul, though it is necessary to access the ‘gold’ of your menopause journey.The sweet moment that you can reach in phase three, ‘Revelation’ where - often in the middle of daily life - you suddenly see yourself for who you truly are.How the final two phases set you up powerfully for your life post-menopause.You can now pre-order our new book! Wise Power: Discover the Liberating Power of Menopause to Awaken Authority, Purpose and Belonging here: https://www.wisepowerbook.com---Registration is now open for our live menopause course - Menopause: The Great Awakener. You can take your seat here: https://www.redschoolmenopause.com---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @redschool - https://www.instagram.com/red.school

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Hey there, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for being here. It's gorgeous to be here with you. This conversation today was such a rich one with Alexander and Sharni about something that they've been thinking about, writing about deeply with for the past many years especially this past year as they've been

writing wise power which is the five phases of the menopause initiatory awakening process so in today's conversation we're walking through these phases we start with phase one which Alexander and Sharni call betrayal which can be a real dark night of the soul though it's a necessary dark night of the soul to access the gold of the menopause journey as they explain. They speak about the sweet moment that you can reach in phase three, revelation, where sometimes in the middle of daily life you suddenly see yourself for who you truly are and they speak about how the final two phases of menopause can set you up powerfully for your post-menopause life. Good morning, Alexandra. Good morning, Shani.

Good morning, Sophie Jane. Sitting here surrounded by blankets because I'm hoping it makes my sound a bit less echoey in my new room where I'm recording so fingers crossed the sound is good I'm so excited for this conversation I know I say that often but the reason why talking about the five phases of menopause feels so important is because I watch how they land for people when we share them in the world I watch each time we go through our great awakener online course i watch what happens for people what how they how these phases help to make sense of the menopause experience yes someone just shared actually in a call we were just doing they talked to it as a sanity saver yeah yeah understanding it yeah gives them a holding a reference yeah so before we start

looking at them one by one i want to ask are when you say the five phases of menopause are we talking about a linear step-by-step process are we talking about a map what do they do these phases actually look like in reality well the short answer is messy probably we're definitely we're definitely talking about a map but as we all know having a map doesn't mean we necessarily know the landscape or the territory or what's going to actually show up on the journey it It's a good guide, but it isn't a foolproof plan. Yeah, it isn't a foolproof plan. We were speaking about this in our group gathering this morning where someone was sharing how they're realizing,

so she's in menopause and she's realizing that her experience of these five phases is much more fluid than she had originally imagined it should be or ought to be. And that she feels herself sort of moving forward and back and between the phases. And she thought she was done with the first phase of betrayal, but now she's really in there. And she was asking about that. And what I shared with her, because Alexandra responded to her in a very rich way and really unfolded something and spoke about how this map of the five phases is an archetypal pattern it is a template that is coded into the experience of initiation and because of that, there is an organic order to it. There is an order. One thing does follow the next in the larger sense of the experience. However, it isn't that black and white. So much like the seasons of the year, there is an order to the seasons of the year, how spring follows winter, and so on and so forth. And yet,

when we're actually in the experience of the seasons of the year, they can be very surprising. And, you know, sometimes in spring, there can suddenly be kind of an experience of what feels like winter, very frostbitten. And I'm actually experiencing it outside this morning. It's autumn and my nose feels like it's going to fall off. What's going on? And in this same month of September, we've had really high temperatures and now almost frost. Exactly. So there is this fluidity and variability and unpredictableness in it.

But there is also this deep underlying pattern and this order that does unfold, that is delivering us into the next season and the next and the next and ultimately delivering us into post-menopause life. So the question is, you know, both. Yes, this is a map and there is an order. And no, this isn't a guide or a foolproof plan and nor

is it black and white or predictable or certain in any way and when you say initiation and that it's coded into any initiation does that mean that any initiatory experience we've had in life has contained this rhythm and flow and order to it? So it's something that we know already. Exactly. Some level of our being has an implicit knowing of this, a recognition rather. I mean, it was a point that Shani made actually when you spoke in this other call about the stages of maturation um we're going through evolutions all the time so these uh this what we describe for menopause the this these five phases rather not the content the content is so unique to menopause i want to say it's on a different

level and scale but there's um you know something sort of familiar in there so for instance i went through a relationship betrayal in my 40s and actually that was where i um learned about the power of betrayal to awaken me because that first phase of menopause we call betrayal and it was that experience and what i learned from that um that i bring into the menopause book actually we do a very central piece of writing around the betrayal is the key kind of element in the awakening process, the initiatory dynamic. So, and when I went through menopause, I actually, I did feel as though I had been prepared already just by the vicissitudes of life

and also dealing with chronic health problems. That was a fricking, I won't swear. Well, you usually do do don't you don't it's a real freaking fuck up of a betrayal is what i want to say betrayed by my body you know i had such a drive and ambition and yes sophie you're nodding so i knew what it meant to you know be taken i didn't know about menopause. That's of a different order. I want to say again, it's of a different order. But yes, ill health did that for me.

You know, any kind of big life challenge transition. Do you know, you know what, as you asked the question there, Sophie, what I thought, what came to me in the moment was, I mean mean this is how I'm holding initiation for myself now is that our life and our life experiences are these sort of gradual incremental moments of maturation and initiatory moments are like a quantum leap in that maturation they're that's evolutionary shift, you know, an awakening. That's the word we use. So through our whole lives, we're sort of on this path of maturation, and we're meeting these challenges which show up in initiations.

But then when you hit an initiatory moment, the classic ones are you know things like menarche motherhood if you go that way menopause and there are many many others those are the ones we work It's this much deeper shift that happens in our being. And that means we move from one identity to another. Yeah. Yeah. That we go from what we were before to what we're about to become. And as we talk through these phases today, it's very clear that the identity has shifted by the time we get to the fifth phase.

Let's get into them. Let's. about phase one which as you said alessandra is betrayal that the path to deep belonging which is the gold of your menopause journey needs to go through the eye of the storm of betrayal so can you walk us into the eye of the storm of betrayal god i felt quite moved by those words. Humbled. So betrayal is really the announcement of the initiation. And it announces itself as a kind of shock to our being really where suddenly we all the kind of natural confidence and kind of feeling of yes this is who i am and where my life is going is suddenly sort of threatened or maybe it is there is a sort of there's a sort of gradual threatening going on i want to say but there is a moment where suddenly it's like jesus it's over

you know it's like i can't do this and you know it's just but it's it isn't just an idea in your head. There's an experience in your being of, in a way, I can only say it, whereas there is no sort of ground there. Now, I'm aware, you know, I can only talk in broad generalities, and how this shows up for each individual person is so singular. But everyone will probably recognize a version of this. And it is this feeling of ultimately that I hesitated for a long time to use that word betrayal. Just called it separation because you suddenly know that you've said you have this feeling of of being in a separate universe you're no longer in the universe you were in you suddenly feel separate from the world it's like a gap between you and the world even though you're going about your business

you're in a gap and the ground goes from under you and um that's you know they can panic and so on. And it is that sense of being abandoned by life. And like it's death, it's death. And death is the ultimate betrayal, really. I mean, it's the betrayal of the ego. It's the ego. It's the ego that's going through a workout. And suddenly you don't feel in control in the way you used to. And you,

and so people, and that's where all this, you know, the feelings of distress and panic and all that. So much of the disturbance of menopause is because people don't understand that that's what's happening. And that, um, understand that that's what's happening and that this is actually the announcement of the initiatory process

beginning and what we need here is support to slow down. To slow down and to be present with the reality of, wow, I can't keep going as before. This is different. And it's a hugely vulnerable moment. You are completely wide open. You're wide open to the divine. And you're also wide open to the shit in yourself and in the world.

And it is that meeting of all that and that's enormous isn't it if i describe it like that that's huge that that is the beginning of the work of the initiation that you have to do i'm struck as you're speaking, Alexandra, part of this separation that's going on at the beginning is a separation from the identity we've had. So you're saying it's like this ego death moment, but it's also a separation from the consciousness that we've been inhabiting. And we go into an altered state is a big part of what's going on here so you're stepping out of normal time and going into a more expanded state which is partly why we start to feel everything because in that expanded state you're more sensitive and more in touch and more permeable. And you can see things that you never saw before.

Yeah. You lose control, but you also lose the kind of armoring and the veils of illusion that you've been operating inside. So this altered state, I feel I really want to name it because I think so often people can feel discombobulated and really like down on themselves. What's wrong with me? You know, I can't think straight anymore. I can't remember what I said five minutes ago. That loss of sort of memory and that feeling of sort of disorientation are very characteristics of this altered state that you're entering,

which you need to enter in order to go through the journey that you're about to go on. We need to have come out of that like um autopilot that we're in something's being interrupted in our psyches and that's part of what happens with this betrayal that you can't you can't ignore what you know what's hitting you and that's taking you out of autopilot which is very necessary and you mentioned support alexandra our world currently yet doesn't really have a lot of space to acknowledge these kind of initiatory processes good changes are happening with some menopause policies entering workplaces which is the beginning the ground floor of this but since our world doesn't really get this calling in support sounds so important and there's a story in wise power from

stephanie on page 135 and she talks about how important support was for her in this stage she says my betrayal phase has been going on for at least the past year. It's been super messy, chaotic, heart wrenching, and many times has brought me to my knees or my bed. What's been most helpful is lots and lots of support. I can't stress that enough. Get all the support you think you need and double it yeah you know when i hear that i it makes me think of this experience i was describing of the altered state that one goes into and how vulnerable making it is to into this territory and what a difference it makes to have allies i mean i'm just relating it to my void experience before bleeding, which of course is a mirror of what we're describing here. And, you know, when we're in an altered state, the companions by our side hold the ground that we are not able to access

in that place. And it makes such a difference also feels important to name before we move on to the next phase because we are going to do a bit of a whistle stop tour today there's great depth to these phases we're gonna give an overview today really it feels important to note before we move on that this can be such a dark night of the soul and for some that can lead to even thoughts of suicide just wanting to to end it yes this this phase of betrayal is very much, you know, is the most challenging part of the menopause journey. And it's a real dark night of the soul where you feel such a kind of clear, it's just an ending, but it can feel very black and white, like you just want to get out of here, out of what you're doing, out of everything, but you don't know what you want. And if you're not met here, if you don't understand what's happening, and this can feel very extreme or challenging. And I'm just thinking,

one of the themes that does come up very painfully it it it just breaks my heart when I hear when I've heard stories of this of people having thoughts of suicide at this point it feels so bleak and so empty and I that speaks to me of the lack of holding in our communities and also it speaks to the lack of resources there that's really crucial you know I'm talking material resources you know feeling like you've got some buffers in your life you know but for some that their lives have not worked out in the way they had hoped. And it just feels like such a chasm that it, you know, literal death presents itself at this moment. And this is really the key thing that's happening with initiation of having to really choose your life. And but you but you don't necessarily in betrayal,

you don't feel good about yourself yet, you usually just see all the crap. This is why it's so good to have support in the community to affirm you and I had great friends and and I came into menopause resourced and with a well of some affirmation self holding but if you've not had the privilege of that kind of support over the years that's yeah you're very, very, very, very exposed. So suicidal thoughts can come up, and we do know of stories of people who have taken their life at this point. And we just really want to name that and honor that and really take a stand for support and community and resources for those in menopause and in the book

we do give a helpline yeah it's live for tomorrow's search service at find a helpline.com. And I'll drop it into the show notes. Absolutely. Yeah. Let's, let's look at phase two now, which is repair. And I want to read this quote about repair. In repair, you surrender to the reality of what's currently in you in order to experience the truth or deeper truth of who you are. It's a big challenge to keep holding that line to yourself when it feels as if everything's crumbling and all is dark. To trust that the seed of your new life is quietly germinating, a seed packed with the alchemized jewels from the trials and tribulations of your life to date. Such a rich paragraph. I guess I'd love to, yeah, I'd love to hear you speak to this, the seed that is quietly germinating,

even in the midst of what can feel like great darkness here the thing is we come in to menopause having lived a life even though there may have been cock ups and failures and all sorts of things we have you 50 odd, whatever years, number of years under our belt of living. And you do, something has been happening in that time. And what menopause will do is really clarify, you know, it'll help you to make meaning out of what may have seemed like perhaps a bit chaotic or perhaps it has been meaningful that's great if it has but if it hasn't you know if it's just been whatever I don't know something happens at menopause and so I'm so what I'm saying is you have jewels inside you you don't see them right now. You only see what's not there.

But I am declaring it here now. You have something inside you. And repair is the, really what we're saying in repair is surrender, rest. It is that, isn't it? It's that, Shani. Yes, and it's also this composting that's happened. I love the way you describe and remind us, you know, when you get to men's boards, you've lived a life,

and that's been good and bad and difficult, and you've achieved and you've failed and all that. And all of that is being composted in the resting and letting go. It's a process of really working through and meeting the life that you've lived and tending to all the hurts and the aches and the regrets and theas, and all of that sort of undigested, because, you know, we do digest our experiences as we go in life, and things happen so quickly, and sometimes things happen all at once in our life, and so, we don't have time to really digest the experiences we've had, particularly if they've been traumatic or challenging. Or we don't have the resources

at the time, we don't have the support at the time to digest them. And we kind of accumulate you know this load and uh and i'm having images of like a congested colon coming up in my mind and here in the repair phase it is the cleansing of the colon there is this letting go and uh working through our system a kind of purifying and detoxing and healing that we are um we're going through which is both happening to us but also alexandria you remind people often that actually this is really the time to seek out help for healing and directly tending and to actually get professional help if you can or at least find a friend who can hold the space for you to be able to talk through and talk out some of these undigested experiences because we know that like listening partnerships for example just being heard when we recount our stories brings such profound soothing to

our nervous system and can really move us into more integration in our beings so yes that's the repair phase the colon cleansing stage i think i might call it i was thinking of a river that's been dammed up with lots of flotsam but you know i'm with you in the in the shitty caroline examples yeah and and and this is what's important i want to really add here that your brain can't work anything out so do not let your rational mind go okay okay we're gonna look for jewels now we're looking we're on a jewel hunt now that kind of slam doors in your psyche faster than anything else this is about it's actually your brain is empty it's like whatever it's like i give up who cares you know i have no idea who i am what i'm doing

nothing it honestly is that just giving up doing nothing yes doing nothing is extraordinary and i always keep reminding myself and reminding others of the season of winter and how nothing happens in winter nothing except of course there's all this secret reparation going on under the surface except we don't see it there's no activity on the surface zero and then out of nowhere and this every year this blows my brains when I see those first green shoots of spring literal spring oh my god if there isn't a more holy moment than that renewal of spring what is it when out of nothing comes something and I'd love people to hold that image because something comes yeah and we write about this in the book we use this term in nantia dromia and

i'm not going to say anything more about you're gonna have to go and read the book now the thing you're saying which i just i love love Alexandra, is like to really let ourselves be in that composting rather than kind of wanting or waiting for what that's going to deliver us to, to actually be in the repair. That's the key, isn't it? Yeah. If you're loving hearing about the five phases of menopause,

we want to invite you to our Menopause The Great Awakener online course, which starts on November the 2nd. We walk through the five phases of menopause together as a supportive community of people in menopause from all over the world. It's for you at any point of the menopause journey as well as the years running up to menopause or if you want to make sense of your experience post-menopause. There's an early bird price that's available until 21st of October and you can explore the course at redschoolmenopause.com and before then we have our wise power retreat which we refer to a few times in this episode a series of intimate encounters with alexandra and women who have had profound experiences

through menopause and together they make sense of those experiences it's absolutely fascinating you can register for free at wisepowerretreat.. We start next week on the 11th of October. We've been sharing some interesting and we will be sharing some interesting examples of what this repair phase has looked like for different people. So I'm thinking of right now Amishade and Kate, who will both be featured in this Wise Power retreat that we have coming up. So Amishade entered into this with a diagnosis of clinical depression coming into menopause, didn't she? And she knew after a life of social justice activism, I need a sabbatical and she found a way to open up space in her life so that she could be with the process that was happening and what was born from that it's amazing yeah and also I'm thinking of well Kate Codrington who was able to take a six-month sabbatical

from her work as a psychotherapist, I think. And also there's a podcast, a really great podcast episode with Jules Wingfield about her 13-moon conscious menopause, which was such a mission to pull off because her life was huge and full. I love how she describes that, Sophie, the reality of all that she has to hold and how she gets us very clear knowing that she needs to step away from it all for this repair to happen. So good. I mean, that's such an incredible story because she has, I mean, she's self-employed running an organization. Huge project.

Yeah. And she didn't know if any of it would be there on the other side yeah because that's the level of unknowing she with the willingness to let it all go to shit and that's what is so powerful about this is the willingness to let it all go to shit and she speaks so powerfully of that love it yeah and I feel very moved in this moment to say, well, I feel moved personally to work towards creating a society where everyone has access to at least some level of support to allow them to be able to drop in this way at menopause. You know, the way our world is set up, where people are on the margins and there are systems of oppression that mean that this just doesn't feel possible. So we need to work towards equal access to to menopause support yeah so i'll drop links to the to those different

conversations in the show notes as well for inspiration for repair but let's move on to um we're heading towards these green shoots a little bit i think that you were talking about phase three yeah this is the um the enantiadromia point this next one revelation revelation yes so phase three revelation so it's like in repair you totally bottom out you like hit the bottom there's nowhere else to go except up and this is the uh like the um winter solstice is the another analogy i use you know where we go to the darkest moment the darkest moment and actually to find stillness in that stillness where nothing is moving there's no movement it's just there's no the light is still isn't it for three days you know there's no actual expansion either way everything stops and this is the turning point

this is the access that you come to eventually what you find with and this is revelation is that is that movement up out of that deepest place of darkness and in revelation is about the revelation of you who just recognizing yourself so it's like you start to see yourself you've cleared all this stuff you've done all this inner work you know the repair and so on you've done you've developed a bit of a muscle you know you've been developing muscles through those first two phases serious muscle and there's you've got you you've brought yourself into presence you've slowed life down you've brought yourself into presence, you've slowed life down, you've brought yourself into presence with yourself,

and then the deshoots, the shoots of something, and it is, oh, oh, it's like thoughts come. But the most crucial thought of all is a kind of... You're now at your most exposed to yourself. And in that moment, you can feel yourself and know yourself as if for the first time. And you'll go, oh wow, this is who I am. And actually, what you're saying isn't original. You've seen it or it's been said of you before or something, you know,

but honestly, it feels like, it's like being newborn. It's like, oh wow, this is me. I don't have to be anything else. It's like all the performance falls away of trying to be what society thinks you should be this is my nature oh god I remember how sweet that moment was and you know it happens when you're just going about daily life just stop you know stop and suddenly stop going oh that's me that's me that's and and the relief that comes with that so this revelation is the revelation of who you are but it's more than just that it is in that moment you absolutely have to choose you. I mean, it almost happens simultaneously, I want to say, but possibly not.

So it is this recognition of yourself, but it is a work of self-acceptance. Now, this is the key that turns everything. And now you're starting to um now you now now now the final two phases you know can start can come in or come in i read this quote from petra from the book because i think it describes what you're saying in her personal experience yeah she says I remember that sudden revelation of seeing who I am under belly as well forgiving myself and accepting my human foibles that sense of looking back and seeing how I'd stumbled through my 20s and 30s and made awful mistakes I felt shame at some of my behavior

and shame is awful accepting myself after seeing the dark side is so liberating no one can touch me no more shame because when I accept myself with kindness and laughter I feel whole I mean isn't that the most beautiful quote that's just beautiful words and and that sums it up for me it sums it up yeah the thing that i'm feeling so touched by is alexandra how you describe and petra's story really speaks this but it's how you described that built into menopause and built into the organic order of life is this fact that when we hit the darkest ebb, when we come to the end or the lowest point in that pause or expansion, life comes to meet us and deliver us back into a new beginning. I mean, isn't that just beautiful to know and feel how we are all held and how menopause holds us that there is this come on it feels like the mother's arms and just waiting when you get all the way down there

she's there she's got you and you feel your okayness and i mean it's so beautiful it really is and it's so good to hear you tease it out and really name it because in the depths of the shit it's almost impossible to remember you just need someone to light a match so that we can light a candle so that we can remember that there is a way yeah yeah what goes down must come up yes you know speaking of alchemized jewels here's the jewel of jewels, discovering yourself. I love the way you say it in the book. You say, like a heat-seeking missile, your soul is on a mission to dock you deeply back into the root system of yourself, which holds great goodness. The root system of yourself.

Yeah. And this world does a lot to uproot us. Exactly. So really, menopause is just a massive re-rooting in ourselves, a recovering of ourselves, just deeply rooting into ourselves and coming out rooted and never losing that rootedness again. And then can you just imagine the trouble that people can cause in the world. It really awakens agency. You make a choice to really accept, yeah, this is me. And that alignment just awakens an agency to serve whatever it is that you're being called to. And of course, then I just want to again acknowledge for that to happen people have to be resourced

in those first two phases that is you know support support resource resource let's move on to the fourth phase which is visioning and you share in the book what the visioning phase offers you is a time of increasing clarity and refinement like a river that's been quietly running underground it now fully breaks the surface and you can see it flow the banks the shape the path's taking, it becomes self-evident and what you simply must do now. Yes, and it's just what you simply must do. It's self-evident and there's no argument. So that idea of the river always being there, running underground. And so when we say vision, we're talking about that which you,

you know, that which you're really serving in this lifetime your creative expression your calling your what you love what you want to be doing to serve life here and it's always been there and it may have been breaking the surface as it obviously it does it's breaking the surface all over the place for you too you're fully in the stream of something um and it will be true for all of us in some some way shape or form and then what menopause does is take it all compost it and kind of take it through this incredible refining process, you know, alchemizing process. And you basically slough off things that are not it anymore.

You know, it's just so you drill down into the essence of something. And for that visioning to really occur, you need to obviously have gone through those previous phases but in particular that key of revelation so if people are still sort of outside out the other side of menopause and going yeah i'm not really sure what it's all you know what am i doing i often want i want to say to them just you know revisit that come back in and you know check in with it's about that revelation phase and the recognition of yourself and that choice to be who you really truly are and then it really does i um i'm now just remembering that fantastic conversation I had with Jane Hardwick-Collins

about her postmenopause life, and she is just, you feel like you're direct. I mean, and I was really resonating with her. It's just so, you're just like a wide-open channel now, and you feel like you have a direct line to something bigger. But you just feel just this incredible kind of knowing and clarity and about what you're about um that sort of feels non-negotiable and she was terrific talking about it's worth catching that that's one of those interviews in the wise power retreat series and yeah you you are it's almost like in the visioning phase it you you get this greater and greater clarity and

everything but it's also about letting yourself receive that it's like really marinating it and not you know our culture is so doing driven it's like really marinating it and not, you know, our culture is so doing driven. It's like, you know, get out there and make, and no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to let the vision land because it's not just an egoic kind of thing. It is much bigger than that. You know, you're, and something has, something is, is. Yeah. You know, and something is using you. You know, it's sort of a channel, really. It's a field you're held in, and you have to let yourself hang out without a single worry about how the bejesus you're going to pull it off.

Because, of course course your vision is massive yeah it's reminding me of the other conversation which you had alexandra with lynn twist i mean her story this is also in the wise power retreat really speaks to how connected she was with what the world was needing and how that came through to her at menopause and she wanted to argue she did argue with it she ran away from it and it just kept coming after her and uh and um yeah wouldn't leave and and then through the process of menopause the kind of dawning appreciation of what that vision held and meant in terms of her service in the world got clearer and clearer but that story was so fascinating. It isn't often or always clear in the moment is it like even lynn in that conversation she said

i've never actually put it together that that was my menopause process working me which is why i'm so grateful to you two and this book that you are marking out the pathway for us so it can be understood by everyone is it so envisioning you're still in a kind of bubble and it's not a doing bubble. I remember it was almost to be orgasmic, like ecstatic. I was just like, wow. You are such an orgasmic, ecstatic being. I love you.

I still remember one particular experience. I mean, I was completely high on nothing but the vision i don't and trust is really key here isn't it there's this line from claudia in the book and she's talking about the bigness that she's feeling about her vision she says trusting the emptiness was a job so that's the other the phases and when the bigness came some fear came with it no no no no I don't want to do that I said but I had to trust the bigness that's brilliant that's precisely it and then we move on to emergence phase five so if betrayal is that sort of transition into the cocoon of metaphors you know the transition from normal life into non-ordinary reality.

Emergence is the emergence from it, except you're not going back to normal life ever again. But you are emerging out of the cocoon of menopause. And that's the process and you can't let your head come in i love our wonderful heads a lovely egoic self you know uh you are a critic it's going you've rested long enough you can't look you know you you know you blah, blah. And of course, you may have to get going, you know, you may be that you have to be working, of course. But and if you have to, you know, you've got to get, you've got to push ahead with things, you know, the realities of our normal life, you know, haven't gone away.

But, and if even if that's the case, you have to find some way to keep allegiance with the fact that your psyche isn't ready to push and actually to be honest really you don't ever want to push push again the vision is carrying you you are being moved by something more than you so i talk about going from my will to thy will you're dealing with a bigger will now your own will is alive and well you don't your own agency is very much alive and well and you need it yeah but it's governed by you know something greater than you and so there's a kind of humility there and a real trust in timing and this allegiance to yourself.

Because when you're starting to emerge, you can wobble because you're becoming more exposed now. You know, you are putting yourself out there, literally. And it's kind of the beginnings you're stepping into the beginnings of post-menopause life and that's a vulnerable moment so we just think you know of a newly hatched chook you know and um you it's so important because you've been held in something so it's

you've been able to stay with yourself. But as you start to emerge, all the kind of pressures of normal, in inverted commas, life can start to try and inveigle their way in. And society's timing of, yeah, now, now, you do that push. If you can't, the allegiance to yourself has to be I want to say rock-solid actually but you know nothing is ever rock-solid but that it's so crucial to have taken time to kind of really I want to say cement but you make a choice there so that allegiance to yourself helps you to hold to your own what your own nervous system basically can handle that's what you're pacing you're pacing your own nervous system and you're pacing the timing of your calling your world timing your because we talk about don't we shine and we talk about

having a new business partner now you want to name who the new business partner is well i was going to say life is your new business partner but and but it's it's life in the form of the serve of your service to life actually yeah business with a capital b by the way yeah this phase of emergence feels very delicate to me as you describe it and and also i'm reflecting back on what i was saying about the beginning which was separation and how we're going into this altered consciousness and here in emergence we are now inhabiting this expanded consciousness this new iteration of ourselves and it's a very delicate thing to start to world in that place to actually show up undefended and show up in your wholeness in the world that's like the next level of you know that's what you've been doing now

alexandra in your post-menopause life is really practicing day by day what that means is to live from this expanded place and to live. Yeah, I was just going to say, you feel tested. You're tested. You know, you're something. Yeah, and that's why pacing is so important, to navigate holding that expansion as you come out. Because it was great what you said there, Shani,

about you have tasted the undefended self you see at menopause you have tasted the undefended self and it's exquisite but and that this is my spiritual practice today and I do fail regularly I have to say but I'm getting better and better and how to hold to my undefended self out in the world because that's that's my that's my compass in my postmenopause life yeah and that's that's a revelation in itself to grow into, I think. You know, I can articulate that now. I wouldn't have been able to articulate that 10 years ago. So if people are thinking, people listening are thinking,

what kind of timescale does this all unfold in? Are we talking weeks? Are we talking months? are we talking years I know you can't say this phase will be three months and three weeks but can you give a sense of what the time scale is Jesus I want to say it has a timeless quality but you know there it's probably I don't, it could be anything from two to five years, something like that. Or I don't even want to be too literal with it, but it happens over a number of years. And, you know, if you're, you know, in your 40s now thinking, oh, no, don't go there. Don't let that thought come in.

You are, when you're practicing you know be connected to yourself and of course we talk about cycle awareness is the kind of great best preparation for menopause but just doing inner work of being connected to yourself um you will feel your psyche shifting and you will be then in menopause and then you will be held in menopause and you will you know we've given you a kind of instruction manual creed way of putting it but you know the book is a wonderful holder of the process that you're going through and but the point is you're inside it and in and it's going to have meaning for you and and it is just where

you are and what you're doing so it is about being in the present moment so but if you're in your 40s not going oh no two to five years of oh i'm going to be in a washing machine of no no no no no do not go there do your inner work do your cycle awareness prepare prepare prepare for your menopause through your self-care and your sweet connection to yourself and you will feel the dignity at work and it's that dignity and that self-respect and respect for menopause it is going to sustain you and you've created a container here well there's the book the book is a great guidebook but you've created the container of our live menopause course which is as I see it looking in from my pre-menopausal place looks like a practice ground for these phases and what's

beautiful because I've had the privilege of being you know witnessing this community of menopausal people is people come back because there's lifetime access to the course so they come back year after year in different phases yes and they go oh now I get what I was experiencing then. And yeah, exactly. What's so lovely about this course, Sophie, is that it holds you in your menopause experience wherever you're at with it. And depending on where you're at, you'll receive different insights, different kinds of meaning making will happen for you and you'll get different kinds of support and so each year it's almost like there's a new layer that you can access and a new kind of medicine that you can receive um over the years so that's it's lovely to know you've got this community to come back to and this container to be held in year after year and even as the course stays the same

I mean we evolve but the structure stays the same it brings different things each year and that's what people keep reading about us but I feel we we bring I can feel how each year I bring something the experience deepens yeah the group deepens it's amazing every year it's like collectively we drop down into another level of shift and my own you know continuing evolution so it's coming back again and again is just so nourishing valuable and people and people make friends this is what's so nice sophie because part of the course is uh the opportunity to have a listening partner so people pair up and then they have companions and allies who are um are wanting to have a similar kind of support through menopause and also are interested

in this work and really tracking the spiritual process. And so people make friends and these are sometimes life, you know, really long term companions that people make and connect with. So it's really nice from that way. So if you are somebody who's feeling alone, this is a great place to come and to find others to share your experience with and talk about your experience with and also to witness and be witnessed, which is really, really supportive. Yeah, and we're starting on November the 2nd. So I'll put the link to the course in the show notes. Menopause, The Great Awakener. Thanks, you two.

That was beautiful. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Sophie. It's been wonderful to be able to... It's almost like get the homeopathic essence of each phase. I feel like I was dropping into that. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you very much. Thank you for being with us again today, Alexandra, Shani and I, we really want to warmly welcome you to the wise power retreat, which is happening next week, starting Tuesday, the 11th of October. This series of intimate encounters between Alexandra and some very inspiring people who speak really powerfully

about their own menopause experience. The author, Sharon Blackie, who's the author of Haggitude. Lynn Twist, the founder of the Pachamama Alliance Shamali Arda who's been a personal teacher for me for many years from the Awakening Women Institute it's such a rich experience I'm excited to hear how it lands for you you can find out about it at wisepowerretreat.com and then as we mentioned in the podcast we have our annual menopause online course starting on November the 2nd it's six weeks and you can find out about it at redschoolmenopause.com we have an early bird price that's available until I think the 21st of October and yeah we would love to have you with us.

Okay, thanks for being with us today and I'll see you next time. And until then, just keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.