The Menstruality Podcast - The Power, Beauty and Soul of Menopause (Omisade Burney-Scott)

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Menopause is often portrayed as a disaster waiting to happen. Omisade Burney-Scott is a leading voice in the movement to change the conversation about menopause, as a powerful initiatory phase of life.Omisade is the creator of the Black Girl’s Guide to Surviving Menopause, a multimedia project seeking to curate and share the stories and realities of Black women and femmes over 50.  In today’s conversation, she discusses the menopause ‘remedies’ she’s learned through creating the guide; including the medicine of self-forgiveness, vision, self-acceptance, and living your passion. We explore:How our identities can shift during menopause and how to navigate the shape-shifting process of our bodies, minds and souls. Omisade talks about how her depression in menopause was “her body trying to save her life”. The power of taking a creative, menopause sabbatical to rest and renew your spirit. How to include all people in the movement to normalise menopause, so we don’t engage in erasure and marginalisation, particularly for the LGBTQ+ community. ---Registration is open for our 2022 Menstruality Leadership Programme. You can check it out here: https://www.redschool.net/menstruality-leadership-programme-2022---The Menstruality Podcast is hosted by Red School. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social media:Red School: @red.school - https://www.instagram.com/red.schoolOmisade Burney-Scott: @oshunsweetnsour - https://www.instagram.com/oshunsweetnsour

Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we're training the menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by Red School's founders, Alexandra and Sharni, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, changemakers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself, your community and the world. Menopause is often portrayed as a disaster waiting to happen. Omishade Bernie Scott is a leading voice in the movement to change the conversation about this powerful initiatory time. Omishade is the creator of the Black Girls Guide to Surviving Menopause,

a multimedia project seeking to curate and share the stories and realities of black women and femmes over 50. In today's conversation, she discusses the menopause remedies that she's learned through creating this guide and through her experience of menopause including the medicine of self-forgiveness of vision of self-acceptance and of living your passion we explore how our identities can shift during menopause and how to navigate this shape-shifting process in our bodies and minds the power of taking a creative menopause sabbatical to rest and renew your spirit I loved Amashade's story about her sabbatical and also how to include all people in the movement to normalize menopause so that we don't engage in erasure and marginalization particularly for the

LGBTQ plus community okay let's get going with the power beauty and soul of menopause with Amashade Bernie Scott. So welcome Amashade to the menstruality podcast. How are you doing today? How's it going? I'm doing really, really good. How are you doing? I'm so glad we could figure out the time difference between North Carolina and the UK. Yeah, it's my afternoon and it's your morning. Yeah, I'm good. I'm actually on the first day of my cycle, so it's a bit of a sleepy day, but I'm feeling very loved. I'm feeling very taken care of and just really grateful to be in this conversation. Wonderful. I love that. I love that so much. You know, usually we begin these conversations with a cycle check-in. So for people who are in menopause or on the other side of menopause, I often just invite you to share, like, what's your experience of your cyclical nature in this

phase of your life that you're in sure I think that's a really beautiful question um I am post-menopausal I had my last cycle in the spring of 2013 um and so my experience with my cycle at that time was, you know, it was diminishing. It was clear to me that things were starting to stretch out. I was having these moments of, oh, it's two, three months, and then it would come on. And then it was four or five months, and then it would come on. And then of course, I actually did not realize I had met that year anniversary that is designated as when you are officially menopausal, that 366 day, not the 365, you got to pass the 365. And I was like, oh, I haven't had my cycle in over a year. And I went to the doctor in 2014. I said, I think that I'm menopausal and my OBGYNs, well, when was your last cycle? And I told them, they were like, well, let's check your numbers. And they did blood work

and they were like, oh, you're officially post-menopausal. Now, of course, your hormones continue to shift and do the things that our bodies naturally do until we are no longer physically here on earth. And so my hormone levels continue to inform me and give me information, even though I'm no longer having a cycle, right? You know, estrogen levels, progesterone, testosterone, all of that, like still is informing me and still giving me new information about what my body needs to feel healthy, what my body needs to be rested, what my body needs to feel strong. But I no longer have that physical manifestation of a cycle anymore.

When we had our chat to prepare for this conversation, you shared that when you first, around the time that you got your first period, you and all your friends were obsessed with getting your periods. Oh my gosh, we so were. And that you were reading Judy Bloom and, you know, getting really into it. Yeah. Yeah. It was such an amazing time. I'm a 1967 baby. So 1979, I was in the sixth grade. I was 12. And we had, in my opinion, a fairly robust sex education curriculum in public schools. And I think that's likely because we, you know,

my generation was the beneficiaries of the civil rights movement and the women's movement here in the States. And so the sex education that was happening in the seventies was very open and transparent and I think really solid. But the year before somebody put Judy Blumes, Are You There, God Is Me, Margaret in my hands in the fifth grade. And myself and my circle of friends, we were absolutely obsessed with this book. We were obsessed with the protagonist in the book. We were obsessed with getting our own periods, obsessed with like the growth of our breasts or the lack thereof, the growth of our breasts. And it just felt like such a pivotal, like cultural moment for me as a girl to realize that my body was changing and things were happening and that I was in this place of anticipation of something that was going to be really, really important to me as a person. Wow. And like, lo and behold, it has been really important as in on the other side of the

menstruating spectrum, like menopause is, is your life work now. You're the creator of the Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause, this incredible multimedia project curating and sharing the stories and realities of Black women and femmes over 50, changing the cultural narrative of menopause. Could you walk us into the time when you were beginning this work and what was inspiring you? What gave birth to this work for you? Yeah, sure. So the vast majority of my adult life since the mid-90s, so over 25, 26 years, has been in the area of social justice and social change. So for me, that's looked like me doing work in not-for-profits and organizations that are focused on kind of changing the material conditions of marginalized people in this country. So that's looked like a focus on racial justice and gender justice and economic justice. In the late kind of 2017, 2018, I was working for a national reproductive justice organization.

And at the end of 2018, I was separated from work. There were a lot of kind of pivotal situations that happened inside of my family and in the workplace. And I decided to take a sabbatical from work. I was like, you know, I've been doing this work now for over 20 years. I'm feeling a little crispy, a little burnout. I was 51. So I decided I'm going to take a break and look to my community for support, both emotional and also financial support, because, you know, working for nonprofit organizations or doing social justice work is definitely not like working in corporate America. And so the resources are not always where they could be or should be to support people doing frontline work. But long story short, my eldest son, Che, said to me,

would you consider making the sabbatical a creative sabbatical? I'm like, yeah, sure. Like, what do you mean? He's like, well, you're a really creative person. Maybe there's something artistic that you want to do or creative that you want to do. So you're a really good storyteller. Maybe there's something you want to do around that. And I was like, that's a really good idea. Gave me, you know, a moment to pause and think, well, if I were going to do something creative during the sabbatical, because it was definitely about rest, because I really needed to rest my body and my spirit, what would it look like? And I said, well, I definitely would love to have conversations with other Black women who are my age or older about how they navigate change and the changes to their

bodies and their relationships and their jobs and careers and all those things. And then I realized, I was like, oh, well, maybe what I really want to do is talk to people about menopause as well. So ultimately what ended up happening is I decided that I wanted to reach out to people, individuals to tell me their stories. And then I knew that I wanted to reach out to people, individuals to tell me their stories. And then I knew that I wanted to capture these stories and archive them and share them back out. And that's how we decided on a podcast. I really love podcasts. I love audio storytelling. I think it gives the listener an opportunity to create their own internal landscape to what they're hearing. And so the first year of the podcast, we really did focus primarily on Black women and femmes. And then I

realized that that was very limiting and very cis heterosexist way of looking at how people experience menopause or aging. And so we intentionally and deliberately expanded the narratives and the stories being shared to include women identified in gender expansive people. And I think that's really important to say, because often what I see happening with the large tent and movement work that is happening around normalizing menopause, we're still marginalizing LGBTQ plus trans and gender expansive people in their story, which means that we're further like engaging in erasure and then visibilizing of marginalized people who are already marginalized. So I didn't want to, I didn't want to be complicit in that. And that's also like not how I move or work in the world. So it made sense

for me to be more conscientious and intentional around that and that's how that's how I was born and I also truthfully Sophie I know that not everybody likes podcasts like some people are like I don't have the bandwidth or the attention span to listen I don't understand those people it's true you know you want to listen to a podcast like that's too long and you know you know We're all different kinds of learners. So I decided, well, what else could I do that would bring people together, put people in circles and give them a topic that they could all answer from their own perspective. And that was like really successful the first year. And then we took it online in 2020 because of the pandemic. And we did it again this year virtually as well. We're hoping to do a combination of a

small in-person thoughtful gathering next year as well as an online gathering as well for folk who either can't be where we want to be or don't feel comfortable being in person. And then the last thing we did is we decided to do a publication. So we have a zine. It's called Messages from the Menopausal Multiverse. We dropped the first edition last year and the second edition will be coming out before the end of this year. really want to take a break to, I really want to just talk to people who look like me and understand what my journey may have been to, Oh, here I am. I'm in this space of really trying to figure out how we can engage in intentional culture and narrative shift around menopause and aging. So you began this in 2018 and you were 51 and you had this inspiration to go on a sabbatical. Where were you at in your menopause process when that happened? Do you see this as your menopause of working you?

Oh, yeah, I definitely do. And I just want to be clear, you know, I think menopause is more than medical, is more than your cycle or the ceasing of your cycle. I think that menopause is a very cultural experience. And so while I am not a person who has a menstrual cycle or haven't had a menstrual cycle in eight years, I still consider myself a menopausal person. And I think that's likely because of my age and how I associate.

It's easy to conflate menopause and aging together because of when it typically happens. But we also know that not everybody who experiences menopause does in their 40s or 50s. You know, there are folks who experience it earlier on for vast and sundry reasons. do feel like the motivation to the sabbatical and also to creating Black Girls Guide was born out of like where I am in my life right now. And I definitely don't compartmentalize my identity. I think of myself as an intersectional person and that I move in the world with an intersectional identity. And so there are different ways that I see myself. And I definitely, one of those identities is as a menopausal person or post-menopausal person. So that informs the way I see the world. It informs my experiences. There are spaces in which I feel like I'm privileged because of my lived experiences. And there are places in which

I feel like I'm marginalized or targeted because of my experiences or identities. You do speak a lot in your podcast about identity shifting a lot at menopause and it's really big in our community you know we have a big community of menopausal people who are exploring menopause as a rite of passage or menopause as an initiation into a new a new way of living new ways of leading as you've been beautifully speaking about ways that include ways that are rooted in belonging and justice how do you I'd love to hear you speak about how you see your identity has shifted through this menopause process I think that's a real yeah because I talk about shape-shifting all the time right that's just I and I also I agree with you I think that um from menage to menopause

there are different points where we are in what I would consider a liminal space, right? So it's like, I know that I'm in a transition. I'm in this liminal space of a shifting of my identity. And some of my identity might not continue with me. It might actually cease to be a part of who I was. But I think that the shape-shifting that I've noticed in myself as a menopausal person or a post-menopausal person

has really been around my relationship with my body and my understanding of what I need to feel safe and what I want to unlearn about my relationship with my body and my identity. And I think that that's probably a combination of both being menopausal or post-menopausal and also being, you know, in my mid fifties and realizing that culturally and societally,

I have been like so many people who identify as women, have been told these are the things that you need to have, or this is the way you need to look to be considered valuable, worthy, cared for, supported, respected, and affirmed. And as I've gotten older, there's been a shedding of those messages. And some of those messages have been packed down for a while. So it hasn't been easy. I don't want to give anybody any impression. It's like, oh, I just woke up one day and I just shook it off and I was good. You're like, no, that's not true. I do realize that every day when I wake up, I'm choosing to see myself more fully as my authentic self.

I'm choosing to be more clear about what I need in my relationships. I'm choosing work that really feeds my soul and is grounded in my values. I'm choosing to be present with my children and my friends. I'm making these choices every day. And am I good at it every day? No, I'm not good at it every day. Do I beat myself up for not being good at it every day? I'm trying my best not to continue to do that. You know, it's like when I notice that I am not being kind to myself or that the internal dialogue I have around the changes and the shifts that I know that I'm making, I'm much more curious and much more opting to be gentle with myself and

loving and kind to myself. I was looking through your Instagram in the run-up to this conversation and there was this beautiful video of you I think you were on a show where you you were dressed and then you were taking your clothes off piece by piece and you took your makeup off what was that show it's style like you so style like you is a mother and daughter multimedia storytelling platform that gives an opportunity for, I'm sorry, that's a loud truck in my background. I apologize. Sorry, I've got dogs and babies and all kinds of things going on like here. No worries. I just realized that you sounded so loud in the background, but the platform Style IQ is really powerful. There are these potent stories of what's underneath your style,

right? So they deliberately reach out to people to talk with them around like, you know, you, how would you define your style? What has motivated your style? How has your style shifted? And then what's underneath? What's underneath? And so they launched a campaign this fall to explicitly talk about aging and menopause. And so the producers reached out to me and said, you know, we really enjoy the work that you're doing with Black Girls Guide.

Would you be willing to tell your story about your style, but also kind of like what's underneath your style as a menopausal person, as a person in their mid fifties, like what would you be willing to do? And so I talked about my relationship with depression. And I talked about my relationship with my body and giving myself permission to be more loving towards my body and that my journey and experience with my mental health has really given me an opportunity to choose me, to be more loving to me, to be more intentional about the way I take care of myself. yeah there was something so moving and inspiring in that clip that you shared which was you were saying that there was you got in contact with your young self through this process of the depression and there was a younger self in you like maybe even the menarche self the

one that was you know had just started her period I think you said like the 10 year old self that didn't care what people think and I think you said something like that she said she wanted to come with you but you had to be soft and open for her to come that's right you know I felt like I wanted to and I continued to engage in the reunification of all my avatars at different ages. And that little girl who was, you know, getting ready to step onto this path, you know, the path of their cycle, the path of their period, the path of their body changing, was such an open, happy, fearless, courageous little girl. And for us to be reunified in an intentional and deep way, I needed to apologize to her. And she needed to say what she needed from me for us to move forward as one person, as a healthier person.

So beautiful. forward as one person as a healthier person so beautiful you also shared about your depression thank you for speaking so openly about your depression I think it's it's so supportive for anyone who's ever received that diagnosis and I know it can happen often for people around menopause that they can receive the diagnosis of depression. And you said it was my body trying to save my life. And I accepted the invitation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said to a couple of folk recently that I think that you get kind of these navigational tools for your body throughout your lifetime,

you know, and your body will give you new information around what it needs because we're not static, right? We're always emerging. We're always evolving. And so you might need new maps. You might need new tools. You might need new resources so you can adjust yourself and adjust your information. So you're taking better care of your body. And I feel like when I was diagnosed properly with clinical depression, my body was screaming at me, like all the bells and whistles. Like if you can imagine a switchboard, we're going off and I had muted them. I wasn't paying attention to it. I wasn't looking at it. I had no choice at a certain point to kind of like adjust my gaze and say, something's wrong here. I need to figure out what's going on. And so when

I got the proper diagnosis and I also connected with my primary care physician, I felt like my body was like, thank you. Finally, listen to me. Something's not okay. You're not okay, but I want you to be okay. And you can actually shift what's happening with you. Do you want to do that? And I was like, I do. I do. And so it's been an ongoing journey. I consider myself now in a place of neutrality with my depression. I still have seasonal depression, but it was not by any stretch of the imagination as intense as it was a beautiful proactive place of neutrality, right? So, you know, rather than being in crisis or triaging myself, I'm like, I'm just, I'm using therapy as a prophylactic. So we're staying ahead of the curve and also giving myself permission to be really honest around you know the dips in um of my energy when my mental health needs shift and change like being in a constant practice with therapy like keeps myself open um in communication with myself and my body around what I need so it's how you stay connected to yourself and how you yeah how you meet that part of you that's

continued that's been evolving through menopause that's been like evolving your relationship to your body and what you need to feel safe is is through the pulse of therapy um there was an article about you in it there's been lots of articles about you because your work is is so magnetic and you know so you can see so many people are drawn to it and and healing from it and benefiting from it it's absolutely wonderful to take in the whole universe of the black girl's guide to survive menop. There was an article about you in Indie Week when you were talking about how each of the stories of the podcast has revealed a different remedy that can come through menopause. And I love this language. We often talk about menstrual medicine at Red School.

So I think you said there's the remedy of forgiveness. There's the remedy of self-accept there's the remedy of forgiveness, there's the remedy of self-acceptance, the remedy of living your passion. Could you share more about what you've learned about these remedies? Like for example, this remedy of forgiveness that can happen in menopause? Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I like to imagine, but not even imagine, I believe this wholeheartedly, Sophie, that whatever we are experiencing that causes pain or causes dis-ease or confusion, consternation, whatever word you want to use, that we have inside of our bodies, inside of our relationships, and also inside of the natural world, medicine. We have medicine to be able to heal ourselves and that it doesn't have to be a solitary act, but sometimes it's hard to figure out how to tap into the medicine. Like what's the remedy for what I'm dealing with that I'm grappling with?

And some of the conversations that I've had with people, both who I've interviewed for the podcast or people who have reached out to me who are listeners is they kind of feel like their body might be betraying them. You know, they're like, I don't know what's going on. I feel really confused right now. I don't know what to do. I feel like when I'm talking to my doctor, I don't know what to ask for. I don't know how to explain what I'm experiencing. I feel like when I'm trying to communicate to my partner or my spouse or my children or my coworkers is not, it's illegible. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to me. So it's hard for me to make sense for other people.

And so people kind of get frustrated. And sometimes in that frustration, we might engage in negative self-talk. We might engage in self-loathing. We might engage in energy that's just really harmful for us. And I think this is where the work is, the opportunity is, the remedy, the medicine is like, oh, well, self-forgiveness is one, cutting yourself some slack. This idea of perfectionism, this idea that there is a standard that you must adhere to, or you're not valuable is absolutely based on systemic oppression. You

know, it's based on racism. It's based on patriarchy. It's based on misogyny. And as folk who make up more than half of the global population, we have had our fill of that, those messages, right? So I think that the, you know, the part of the remedy of self-forgiveness is one, you know, cut yourself slack, hon. You're not the only person who has been sold this really trash bill of goods. You're not the only one. And two, if you have been engaging in negative self-talk, self-loathing, maybe even physical behavior that's been harmful to you, it's okay for you to forgive

yourself. It's okay for you to be more curious and understand why you might've made some of those choices. And it's okay to begin again. Like, I think that our lives are very much a non-linear iterative kind of experience. There's a really fabulous book written by a person named Adrienne Marie Brown. She's an organizer, an activist, a writer. She's fantastic. And this book is called Emergent Strategies.

And in the book, she talks about how the natural world gives us all that we need to be engaging in movement work, liberation work, social justice work from a place of love, right? And so this idea of self-forgiveness as a remedy is, I think, one of the first, most potent, and probably most persistent remedies that we can afford ourselves our lifetime is to constantly be engaging in this place of like, I can forgive myself. I can cut myself some slack. I can be more loving to myself. I can keep myself safe and can be in relationship with other people who are committed to keeping me safe

and me keeping them safe too. If this conversation with Omishade is inspiring you and you'd like inspiration and support as you navigate or prepare for menopause we have some exciting news red schools co-founders alexandra and sharni have just finished writing their book about the initiatory power of menopause it's coming out later this year if you'd like us to keep you posted about the book sign up for our free menopause online course and you'll be added to our menopause updates list i'll drop the link to the course in the show notes for this episode

okay back to the amazing amishade bernie scott i'll link to adrian mar Marie Brown in the show notes. Is it Adrienne Marie Brown who's the pleasure activist? You know, that's exactly the same person. Yes. Adrienne lives here in North Carolina too. And she's, she's, her and her partner are fantastic and just beautiful, beautiful people inside and out.

And she really does kind of give these beautiful offerings that she puts on the table for you. I think we talk about pleasure in the podcast. And I always say that Adrienne inspired me to think about what my pleasure practices are, both sexual and non-sexual. Like what are the things that I do that bring me pleasure, that I enjoy, that make me happy, like give me access to what she calls your satisfiable self. Right. And I love that question. Like, Omi, what are the things that you do that gives you access to your satisfiable self? And I'm like, oh, this is a good question. And I think that's, again, another remedy. Right. So the remedy of imagination, the, of vision, you know, and that allowing you to access a part of

yourself that maybe you thought was not available to you, or maybe you thought was over because you're menopausal or you're older and it's not over until it's over. And then who knows what happens next. One of, you know, Alexandra and Sharni who run Red School, they're writing a book about menopause at the moment and really core to the book is how menopause initiates us into leadership and living our calling and living our passion, which you've named as one of your remedies. Do you see that as core to your menopause process? Or are you seeing this in the people that you're speaking to in the podcast, that there's something working in menopause that is nudging or pushing or sometimes throwing people into, you know, a life change where they feel more connected? Yeah, I think that menopause characteristically

is an experience that kind of can make you really uncomfortable. You may or may not experience physical symptoms. You may or may not have any kind of like physical manifestations, but I do think that part of the journey with menopause is like, it kind of gets in the bed with you and sits on the side of the bed and says, Hey, are you doing the thing that you really want to do? Are you really happy? And like, I think menopause, if menopause were a person, menopause would be that person who consistently asked you the hard questions that you don't always want to answer. Right? Like, are you happy right now?

Oh my gosh, I really don't want to have this conversation. Okay, I'll be back later. Right? Because menopause is persistent. Menopause will not go away. I feel like menopause is, you know, as a, as a persona would be like, do we really like this job? Are we sure? Do we want to stay here? Maybe we should quit. Maybe we should start a business. Do we really like this house? Maybe we should downsize.

Oh no, maybe we should just refurbish it. Do I really want to be in this relationship? Okay. Well, maybe I'll recommit. No, maybe I i won't don't want to live here like i think it's all of these questions that i think keep surfacing and like if we've not been in an intentional introspective space in our lives those questions coming up and sometimes questions coming up compounded by physical changes, right? So the vasomorto symptomology of hot flashes or hot flushes, as you all say in the UK, right? Or brain fog or insomnia or weight gain would give you the impression that you are wholly and fully fraught with some kind of issue, right? Something's wrong. Something's not wrong. You're changing. And when you change, it's not necessarily an easy thing. And so I think that menopause very much presents itself in a way that asks the hard questions that we don't always necessarily

want to answer or we don't have the answers for. And I think the work that's happening right now globally to normalize menopause is creating spaces for people who are experiencing menopause to find their voice, right? And to tell their own stories and to connect with other people who will affirm their experiences as not being a problem, but being a pathway, right? So I think that menopause puts you on a path and that path might not be comfortable, but it's yours and you get to own your path. Speaking about the medical, like how menopause is sort of medicalized, there was a quote from you around the time of bald menopause day, where you said, fraught with stereotypes and patriarchal tropes, menopause becomes another reason to assert the

fragility of the female form in mind, body, and spirit. It presented male dominated culture with another opportunity to oppress women and women identified people through the science of the growing field of gynecology. Menopause was and continues to be pathologized and problematized. Mm-hmm. And it's true. You know, I know that as folk who are women or women identified, we know that there are gendered issues as it relates to our care, right? Our care and our relationship with the medical industrial complex, our care and our relationship to gynecology, our care and our relationship with our primary care physicians.

And that becomes more nuanced and exacerbated when you identify or you're clear that you're also a person of color, whether you're Black, Latinx, Middle Eastern, Asian, or whatever the case may be, the biases that you experience get amplified. And so it's important for folks to know that what they might be experiencing around their care has been built through a prism and a framework that didn't necessarily value women's bodies, actually. and physicians who are clear about that history and also clear about the persistent contemporary experiences that people have with bias and are committed to disrupting that. And I think that's important to say, because there are those physicians out there, there are those researchers out there, those doctors, those educators out there, and there are still providers who very much operate inside of a culture that doesn't value women's bodies. You know, the United States, we know that the practice of gynecology was formed and learned about women's bodies by practicing on enslaved Black women without anesthesia, without any kind of medicine or pain relief. So a lot of the technology that has evolved but is still used today was practiced on Black bodies.

So it's important for us to always understand the context of how we're experiencing this and the support and the care we receive from the medical field. And it's also important to see how the through line of what happened historically still kind of shows up contemporarily and to address that appropriately. And the trauma that comes from that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's why it's so brilliant that people like you and also Karen Arthur who was on the podcast oh my love my love love listening to you two speaking together so fun um you know that work to expand the narrative beyond the physical and the medical and speak about what we've been speaking about today about how our identities shift menopause about how menopause is working us and shape-shifting us I want to come back to one of the remedies that you shared which was the remedy of vision because when I look at your work and especially this new work that's coming through

the um the zine the messages of the menopausal multiverse you are a person of real vision I mean that is cosmic what's coming through you that oh thank you it was so exciting it's amazing Do you feel, how do you feel that menopause has maybe opened up your visionary nature or have you always been this way? I've always been what I would consider a bit of a nerd. And I own that identifier with so much love. And I think that I've also been always attracted to spirituality. I've always been attracted to what people would call science fiction or speculative fiction. I've always been attracted to the unknown, right? To look at a body of water and realize that what I'm looking at at the surface is so much deeper once you dip into it, right? Like all the things that exist below the surface. And so messages from the menopausal multiverse certainly is a reflection of me believing that

I love string theory, you know, the fact that there's infinite possibilities, right? There are infinite possibilities. Like if there are infinite possibilities, then anything is possible. And I do believe that anything is possible. And that I agree with you about menopause being a tool to access that. I think it's a portal to access those messages. I think it's a portal to think about things differently and to be open to things that you maybe wouldn't even consider previously. If I were writing a fiction book, I would have my protagonist go through these amazing shape-shifting experiences

that get even more intense and profound as they get closer to menopause. Because I think that's truthfully what happens to us as people with ovaries and uteruses, that as we get older, like there's something really powerful happening inside of our bodies, something chemical, something spiritual, something energetic. And if we are affirmed in that transformation, if we are affirmed in that shape-shifting, that makes us more powerful, more loving, more able to heal ourselves and other people, but that has been targeted. It's been vilified. It's been demonized, if you will. And so I think being with other kindred spirits who say to people, you know, what you're experiencing is, is challenging and it's so powerful.

And I want you to lean into that power. You know, we, at the end of each episode, we say, we'll see you again on the dark side of the moon. And that is a nod and an homage to the mother crone, right? And I like to say that we basically created a base camp on the dark side of the moon. And it's no longer, you know, it's still the dark side of the moon. But if you find yourself on that path, you will see us as an oasis, right? There's, we have lit the dark side of the moon up. We've got food and provisions. We've got comfort. We've got music. We've got community. We've got stories. And so the dark side of the moon is still the dark side of the moon, but we can make home there. And it's not cold because we're there together. I think one of the things that I've always been frustrated about, and I remember even thinking about this in my twenties and one of the most dangerous ways that the menopausal phase of life is, is vilified is it's somehow made invisible. And a lot of the menopausal people in my life talk about

how they feel invisible yeah that the people aren't seeing them the world isn't seeing them and like everything kind of gets quiet when it's like I want the voices of these people to be the ones that are being amplified because of exactly what you're talking about and the the vision and the possibilities and the and the leadership that can come through we've we've really got to work against and you are doing this amazingly work against that invisibility right I am trying my best I think the invisibility is one of the scariest parts of that is to feel like you're dematerializing constantly in front of people. You know, we've talked about menopause in the workplace and how people experience their work, their coworkers, their supervisors, and the moments when they feel like they are literally

being erased, like the erasure is happening in real time and they can't stop it. And so I do think it's important for us to, you know, for folk who are clear that this is a spectrum, you know, I really appreciate how the conversation of our cycles is a journey, right? You know, from the beginning to the end, you know, and even the, you know, in any story, there's always a prequel, right? There's the prequel that gives you the origin story, right? So what's the origin story of menstruation, the origin story of our relationship with menstruation, and how at different points, we are told that's too much to talk about, you're too much to handle some things up with your

body. And then being able to give that person the tools they need to be like, I'm not going to let you dematerialize me. I'm not going to let you erase me or invisibilize me. I'm here. And I might appear differently at different stages of my life, but I'm still here. I am still valuable. And I have kindred that walk with me. I don't walk by myself. We walk as legion. And I think it's really important for us to do that because it makes it harder to invisibilize people when you walk as legion. Which brings us back round two to the people who are marginalized from both the cycle awareness conversation and the menopause conversation, the gender expansive people, gender fluid people, the other people in the LGBTQ plus community that who whose lives are being erased and people of colour, whose lives are being erased in so many ways that the work to include and create belonging for everyone to bring everyone out of this invisibility myth is so important. Absolutely it's critical so you know when I show up in spaces

I don't assume the worst but I do sometimes assume a kind of a passive or a tacit belief in the system as it is. And so I ask questions, right? So some, you know, we'll show up on a call or a conference or a webinar and somebody will kick off the conversation with like, all right, ladies, let's have a conversation about menopause. And I often find myself being the fly in the ointment in saying when I have my opportunity to introduce myself to say, I'm so glad to be here. And I also want to elevate, lift up, remind us that there are people who want to access this conversation. There are people who have their own very personal narrative. There are people who are seeking community and seeking support who do not identify as women. And what we don't want to do is block them out of this conversation. There are also Black women who would look at this conversation and think, wow, this is a very white cis hetero conversation. And so how do we remind ourselves on the front end before we even come together, all of the voices and the

narratives that make this work so important and so potent and not to be complicit in erasure or invisibilization. And they're like, right thanks omi i'm like you're welcome my pleasure uh it's always about belonging for me like that theme comes back around again and again with all of this cycle awareness work and the menopause work that there's our world is so full of separation and fragmentation and injustices and it feels like there's some kind of hidden intelligence in the cycle and in the menopause process that is cultivating the opposite, cultivating

togetherness and, and real belonging. I think so. And I'm excited for that. I think it's really important for you and I to be having this conversation because I do think cycle awareness is an intergenerational experience, right? And I think that these conversations are critical for us to remember I love the conversations that I'm having with millennials and gen z's around menopause when they felt like that's not something I need to think about or worry about or even access and then they're like

wait a minute if I keep living and I was like right if you keep living at some point this will become a part of your reality so while it's kind of live and exist outside of your reality right now, because of who you are and how old you are, that will not always be the case. And that's really powerful in deconstructing this invisibility piece, because then perhaps there's more openness to seeing the people in our lives who are menopausal. That's right. It gives you an opportunity to reassess, reimagine, and also just like, you know what? I have not fully been seeing you. And now I can reconsider our relationship and we both can have conversations about how we're experiencing our bodies. So if my friend who is in her early thirties wants to have a conversation with me and my friend who's in her mid seventies, we all three can have conversations about our bodies.

We all three can have conversations about pleasure. We all three can have conversations about death, dying, rage, love, creativity, rest, all three of us, right? And it's not a place where we're informing the other or teaching the other. We're sharing the experience and we're all three transformed by the dialogue and the conversation. I love that. I remember seeing some conversations, maybe they were called the red table with Jada Pinkett Smith. Yes, I love that. I love that. I want to just touch on leadership and how you view this in menopause. You know, we've spoken a lot about the kind of qualities that grow and expand in people and the opportunities in menopause and how do you see

the connection between menopause and leadership or what kind of leadership menopause is inviting us into? You know my initial thought when you asked that question is that menopause is inviting us into a collective leadership right you know You know, there's a lot of mythology out there that leadership is a singular experience or a person and that, you know, which is a very messianic kind of approach to leadership. Like we're waiting for the one to save us. We're waiting for the one to lead us, right? And then we invest wholly in that one, which puts that person or, you know, maybe a small number of people on a pedestal, which makes it really hard for those folks to be human beings, right? Like if you're the one, the sole person responsible for leading a movement,

leading a thing, doing a thing, then when you have human moments, when you fail, because we do, when you are frail, because we can be, when you make mistakes, because we do, then it's harder to recover from that when you're the only one, right? When you're the leader. An opportunity that's intergenerational. An opportunity where people, everybody is valued for what they bring to the table and that it doesn't have to be the same thing, right? That we know that what I bring, what you bring, what other people bring is valuable because it creates a larger whole, right? Then it makes it also easier for us to be human at the table. It makes it easier for us to lean on people when we're feeling tired or fatigued, or when we make a mistake and that there's opportunity for repair. You know, there's opportunity for compassion and support and intentionality in our relationships. And so

I think that menopause really does create an opportunity for there to be some shared leadership and shared learning. And that that leadership is not dependent on one person or a cultural personality. I very much reject the idea of it's one person or a small, very special, specialized group of people that's not accessible to the average person who may never decide to pick up a microphone or be a part of a larger platform that's more public does not mean that they're not a part of this collective leadership that's shifting the way we understand menopause and our cycles and getting older. It's so much more sustainable that way too. It is. It really is. You know, it's like, you know,

when we learn about the natural world and we talk about geese and, you know, there's this beautiful information out there about birds and formation, right? So whether that's the murmuration that we think we see that looks very irregular, it looks random. It's not. Murmuration is not random at all. And it's not random in terms of the formation that we see birds fly in. It's very strategic. There's a natural rhythm and it allows for birds who have more strength to fly at a certain place and birds who are tired to rest and ride the wave. There's so much that we can learn from the formations we see in the natural world, in the collective and how the collective takes care of itself. All the systems, like the system of mycelium and mushrooms and how intricate those systems are. Like we can use those as examples of the type of systems of support and care we can extend to each other.

Yeah. I love that research around how the fungi connects the tree roots so that they are sharing the nutrients in the forest. Say that again, Sophie, they are sharing the nutrients. They are not, it's not extractive. They're not stealing from each other. It is complimentary. There's a sharing because there's enough resource out there for that to happen. And I think the same thing for us. There are enough resources and abundance out there for us to share with each other what we're learning, our understanding, the tools, and for us to create new things together as well. I've just loved this conversation so much. I really appreciate the caliber of your imagination

and your vision. And I'm a nerd with you. And I would love to just sit and watch sci-fi with you for a whole week long. I appreciate, you know, the generosity with which you're sharing everything that you're receiving through your menopause wisdom. I think what you're creating in the world is so needed and so beautiful. Thank you. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so glad we got to have this conversation. I really respect the work that you're doing. And I really appreciate you adding my voice to the collective of these conversations. I'm excited to be a part of it. Me too. Just before we close, I'd love to hear what you have happening in 2022.

Like what's coming up for you. So 2022, we will launch into season four of the podcast and we're super excited about that. That will kick off at the end of the first quarter. So folks should keep an eye out for sometime in March for the first episode of season four to launch. We are definitely going to be curating intergenerational conversations and storytelling events. And we're hoping to do at least two, one in person, which will probably be local to North Carolina, and then one virtual

that will be open to folk to participate in. And we're super excited about that. And we're going to dip our toe into some deeper writing. So we're going to continue to do the zine. So there'll be a third edition of the zine next year as well. But we're also looking to be doing more writing in other ways. I've been invited to submit an essay by Mona Eltahawy. So folk might know Mona. Mona is an amazing Egyptian writer, badass feminist, activist, journalist, and is writing a menopause anthology. And I've been invited to add my voice to the anthology. And we're also curious about what it would look like for us to write our own book so we'll we'll start exploring that next year as well I am so curious about that I'm really

excited about that and everything else you're doing and especially that and also you have a patreon I do I yeah thank you for that you know I patreon is a way for folk to be sustainers and to support us monthly we have a team of folk that are all identified as as black is intergenerational women women identified and gender expansive people and so the Patreon allows me the flexibility and the resources to be able to resource the folk who are working with me. You know, so the artists, the creatives, the collaborators, we always pay folk. I will never, ever ask somebody to do work for me for exposure. I will never ask somebody to do work with me and say, well, I can't really pay you for your time. I'm going to always figure that out because I think it's really important

for us to resource people. So the Patreon allows us to better resource the folk who want to work with us. And we are also engaging in other fundraising strategies to create a larger pool of resources to support people in more sustainable ways. I will link to that in the, oh, hello, there's my dog.

I will link to that in the show notes for people who want to support this brilliant work that you're doing, the Black Girls Guide to Surviving Menopause, the messages from the menopausal multiverse and all that's to come. I'm so grateful to know you. Thank you for everything you're doing. And I look forward to continuing this conversation with you down the line as do I as do I thank you so much Sophie and if folk want to learn more about the Black Girls Guide they can check out our website it's www.blackgirlsguide.com to surviving menopause and that's a great portal for you to access all the things we're trying to do and become a part of the work we're doing together so I'm grateful for this conversation and also for this um blossoming relationship thank you so much Sophie thank you for listening today we would love this to be a conversation if there's someone that you would love us to interview or a topic that you'd love us to explore in the menstruality podcast please email me at sophie at redschool.net I would love to hear from you as always it's

really helpful for us if you could give us a review on apple podcasts and make sure that you subscribe it helps us to reach more people and we I look forward to connecting with you next week. And until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant rhythm.