The Misery Machine - GRAPHIC: The Murder of Sylvia Likens | Do Women Get Lighter Sentences For Child Murder? | Bystander Apathy | Indiana's Most Sadistic Case

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

This week, Drewby and Yergy cover the tragic story of Sylvia Likens. We draw comparisons to her case and that of Junko Furuta, and discuss the phenomena of bystander apathy, why no one in power stepped in to assist, why neighbors were apathetic despite numerous instances of public child abuse, and why neighborhood kids considered the ordeal to be some sort of funny sideshow or game, despite there being dozens of witnesses to her torture. The murder of Sylvia Likens was a child murder which occurred in Indianapolis, Indiana in October 1965. Likens, aged 16, was held captive and subjected to increasing levels of emotional, physical, and sexual abuse and torture, and neighborhood children were allowed to do the same if they paid an admission fee, which many did. These inhuman crimes were committed over a period of almost three months—by her caregiver, Gertrude Baniszewski, many of Baniszewski's children, and countless other neighborhood children, before ultimately succumbing to her injuries on October 26. Despite the ages of some of the perpetrators being in their late teens, none were tried as adults, and all got incredibly light sentences for their crimes, including Gertrude Baniszewski who was paroled after only 14 years in prison, despite receiving a life sentence, overall contributing to the data that women get lighter sentences compared to men for all crimes involving abuse towards children, no matter how heinous. Join Our Facebook Group to Request a Topic: https://t.co/DeSZIIMgXs?amp=1 Support Our Patreon For More Unreleased Content: https://www.patreon.com/themiserymachine PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/themiserymachine Instagram: miserymachinepodcast Twitter: misery_podcast  #podcast #documentary #truecrime

We're the misery machine. I'm Yergy. And I'm Drewby. I know this is true crime, but we're going a little bit darker than before. And I feel, again, with the Junko Ferruda episode, I have to give a content warning. So there's going to be themes of extreme violence and torture of a child as well as sexual assault. So if this is too much for you or you found the Junko Ferruita case too much for you, I might suggest that you don't listen to this one.

And you get Yergy crying again. Sorry. Given the nature of this also, I'm not going to do any promos or social media plugs or anything like that. I do want to say thank you to everyone that helped get us to 400 subscribers. But besides that, not doing any more of that this week. So without further ado, this is a Sylvia Likens case. Gertrude Banishefsky, also known as Gertrude Wright and the Torture Mother, was an Indiana mother who oversaw and facilitated. the prolonged torture, mutilation, and eventual murder of Sylvia Lykins, who was a teenage girl that she had taken into her home.

The case is unique in that, while Banashevsky did play an active role in Lyon's death, the majority of the torture that eventually brought about Lyon's demise was carried out by Banashefsky's teenage children and other neighborhood children. Although Banashefsky did instruct the children on several occasions, it was later discovered that they took a large degree of Lycans torture into their own hands, and what would look later be called a Lord of the Flies scenario come to life. When she was convicted of first-degree murder in 1965, the case was called, quote, the single worst crime perpetrated against an individual Indiana's history. Banashefsky was born Gertrude Van Fawson in 1929, the third of six children. Little is known about her childhood except that she shared an extremely close bond with her father, but had a frigid relationship with her mother.

A further wedge was driven between Gertrude, and her mother when Banashevsky's father died in 1940. The 11-year-old Banashevsky watched her father die of a sudden heart attack. Five years later, Banashevsky dropped out of her school at the age of 16 to marry an 18-year-old deputy named John Banashevsky, by whom she had four children with. John Banashevsky had a volatile temper, often beating Gertrude for, quote, annoying him. However, the two stayed together for 10 years before eventually divorcing, and Gertrude. was granted custody of their children.

Within a year of the divorce, Gertrude met and married a man named Edward Guthrie, who divorced her after three months when he tired of having children arounds. Shortly thereafter, Gertrude and John Banishevsky reconciled and remarried. The couple stayed together for seven years and had two more children before finally divorcing

permanently in 1963. It should be noted that the abuse very much continued even when they remarried. Around this time, the then 37-year-old, Gertrude Banishevsky began an affair and moved in with a 23-year-old named Dennis Lee Wright who further abused her. She became pregnant twice by him, suffering one miscarriage allegedly as the result of being assaulted by Wright, but did give birth to one child. This child, Dennis Jr., would be Banishavsky's last child in all she had seven children and suffered six

miscarriages in her lifetime. Shortly after Dennis Jr.'s' birth, Dennis Wright Sr. abandoned Banashefsky and disappeared. She was left essentially destitute as Wright had been supporting her financially. She was now forced to support herself and seven children on occasional child support payments from the unreliable John Banashevsky, and by performing odd jobs around town such as babysitting and doing other people's laundry for them. However, the financial problems were quickly exacerbated when Banashevsky discovered that her 17-year-old daughter, Paula, three months pregnant after a fling with a middle-aged married man. Around this time, Banashevsky's health declined considerably.

She was chronically ill with a number of unidentified illnesses. She ceased practicing proper hygiene, and she barely ate. Eventually, these factors began to affect her outward appearance, resulting in a receded hairline, sunken eyes, and an overall skeletal appearance. Banashevsky began to present herself as Mrs. Wright, claiming that she had, in fact, married Dennis before he abandoned her. which allowed her to keep up a veneer of respectability. Gertrude's 37 at this point.

Mm-hmm. If you look at pictures of her, she looks well into her 60s or 70s. Yeah, I thought that she was around the time of... She's literally the same age as me. That's terrifying. So this is 1965, and she was living alone with all seven children. She got full custody of all of them. So there was Paula, who was 17, Stephanie who was 15, John who was 12, Marie who's 11, Shirley, 10, James 8, and Dennis Leight, Jr. at the time, one years old.

So although 36-year-old and 5 feet 6 inches tall in height, she weighed only 100 pounds and had been described as a haggard, underweight asthmatic chain smoking, suffering from depression due to the stress of three failed marriages, a failed relationship, and a recent miscarriage, Baneshevsky and the children resided in Indianapolis, Indiana at 3850 East New York Street. The monthly rent at the time was $55. Severe Marie Likens was the third of five children born to carnal workers, Lester Likens, and his wife, Betty Francis. She was born between two sets of paternal twins, Diana and Daniel, and Jenny and Benny. Jenny Likens had suffered from polio, causing one of her legs to be weaker than the other. She was afflicted with a notable limp and had to wear a steel brace on one leg. Lester and Elizabeth's marriage was unstable.

They often sold candy, beer, and soda at carnival stands around Indiana throughout the summer, moving frequently and regularly experiencing severe financial difficulties. The Lichen sons regularly traveled with their parents in order to help out, but due to concerns for their younger daughter's safety and education, they didn't particularly like their daughters traveling with them in the carnival. Both girls frequently reside with their relatives, often their grandmother, so that way their schoolwork would not suffer while the parents and brothers traveled with the carnival. In her teenage years, Sylvia Likens occasionally earned spending money by babysitting, running errands, or performing ironing chores for friends and neighbors, often giving her mother part of her earnings. She has been described as friendly, confident, and a lively girl with long, wavy brown hair extending below her shoulders and was known as cookie to her friends.

Although exuberant, Likens always kept her mouth closed when she smiled due to having lost a front tooth when she collided with one of her brothers while playing as children. She also had a fondness for music, the Beatles in particular, and was noticeably protective of her markedly, more timid and insecure younger sister, Jenny. On several occasions, the two sisters would visit a local skating rink where Jenny would fasten a single roller skate to her strong foot, and Sylvia would lead her by the hand as they skated around the. rank. In July 1965, Paula Bannyshefsky met up with a friend of hers, Darlene McGuire, who introduced her to two new neighborhood girls, Sylvia Marie Likens, 16, and Sylvia's younger sister, Jenny, who was 15. Paula took the girls back to the home at 3850 East New York Street, where they drank soda and listened to records. The Likens girl's mother, Betty, was at the time

in county jail for having been arrested for shoplifting, which left Sylvia to care for her sister. Betty had abandoned Sylvia's father, Lester, and effectively kidnapped their two daughters. When Paula heard of the girl's circumstances, she offered to let Sylvia and Jenny spend the night. The next day, Lester Likens arrived in town, having tracked down his wife. He ran into McGuire, who recognized the description Lester gave of his daughters, and she directed him to the Banishavsky home. When Lester Likens arrived, Banisheski introduced herself as Mrs. Wright. The two struck up a conversation over the course of which the idea came up that Gertrude M.

might take in Sylvia's borders. He had spoken with his wife at the county jail, where they had reconciled and agreed to travel the United States Carnival Circuit as Carnies. No one alive knows whether Banashefsky or Lester suggested that she boarded the girls. Eventually, Lester agreed to leave the children in Banishapshevsky's care for $20 a week. Lester did not inspect the home before leaving. Had he done so, he would have discovered that Gertrude's home had no stover microwave,

that there were only enough beds for half the people in the house. house, that the only things Gertrude kept in her pantry were bread and crackers, that most of the surfaces in the home were caked with thick layers of dirt, and only enough plates and eating utensils were present for three people. The first week of Sylvia and Jenny's lives at the Banishewski home went relatively well. They attended high school and attended teenage social functions with the Bannicheski children, as well as church with Gertrude on Sunday. When Lester's $20 payment failed to arrive, though, Banishewski threw a tempered tantrum screaming at

the girls. I took care of you two bitches for nothing, before forcing them to lie across her bed with their skirts and underwear around their ankles while Banishefsky beat their buttocks. Shortly thereafter, Lester and Betty Likens came back into town to check on the girls. Neither of them made any reference to the beatings, presumably under the threat from Gertrude. The next week, Sylvia and Jenny went through the neighborhood garbage, collecting old Coca-Cola bottles to sell in order to get money for candy. When they came home with the candy, Banishavsky accused them of stealing. When Sylvia explained how she got the candy, Banashevsky accused her of lying and made her bend over the bed as before,

where she beat her across her bare ass with a paddle. Shortly thereafter, the Banashevsky children came to Gertrude after a church social and told her that they were disgusted with the amount of food they had seen Sylvia eating. Banashevsky told Sylvia that she was angry that she would do something to ruin her physical appearance and forced her to eat a hot dog piled with condiments. When Sylvia vomited, Banashevsky forced her. her to scoop up the vomit and devour it. Soon afterwards, Lester and Betty Likens came again into town to check on the girls.

Per Banashevsky's instruction, Sylvia made no reference to the vomit-eating incident. The incident which appears to have either precipitated, triggered, or coincided with the sharp decline of Banashevsky's mental stability occurred on August of 1965. When she overheard Sylvia remark that she had once allowed a boy to feel her up, I've heard different accounts of this. Another one was that she was talking about how she thinks she went on a date because she went roller skating with some boy. So I'm not sure which it was. But regardless, Banashevsky inexplicably burst into a fit of obscenities,

accused Sylvia of being a prostitute and informed the rest of the house that Sylvia was pregnant because she had let a boy touch her vagina. Banashevsky then attacked Sylvia, repeatedly kicking her in the crotch. When Sylvia attempted to sit down afterwards, Paula Banashevsky threw her out of the chair and informed her, you ain't fit to sit in chairs. So during this time when this incident happened, Paula was actually roughly three months pregnant. Probably touch on it later, but Gertrude basically pretended like this was not the case at all, that she was not pregnant. Anyways.

So from there on, Banashevsky only allowed Sylvia to sit in a chair with permission. Around this time, Banishevsky also began allowing her. older children to use Sylvia as sort of a living plaything, with the games ranging from beatings to being pushed down the stairs. Why Sylvia's story so enraged Benashevsky is still uncertain. It's been theorized that she saw in Sylvia the beauty and opportunity for happiness that had long ago escaped her, and so encouraged and participated in Sylvia's degradation and torture as an act of self-loathing. Others have theorized that Banashevsky's hard life and current living conditions resulted in a mental break. Whatever the case, Banishevsky manifested this rage by justifying

her attacks by accusing Lycans of being a prostitute and delivering bizarre sermons to her children and Sylvia about the filthiness of prostitutes and women in general. The day after Banishefsky kicked Sylvia and the crotch, according to Jenny, as an act of vengeance. Sylvia and Jenny told their classmates that they had seen Paula and Stephanie having sex with boys in exchange for money. Stephanie was Banishavski's second oldest daughter. He spelled like 15, I believe. Yeah, so when Stephanie's 15-year-old boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, discovered what Sylvia and Jenny had said,

he came to the Banishevsky's home and beat Sylvia. From then on, Hubbard encouraged by Banishavsky made frequent visits to their home, during which she would instruct the boy to practice his judo on Sylvia. So he wasn't simply just doing takedowns on her. He was actually punching her and doing judo throws that put people on their head. So she was being thrown onto her head. Sometimes this was done in the basement onto concrete, and he would do this until she would go unconscious sometimes.

So also around this time, Banashevsky got Sylvia's best friend, who was a 13-year-old named Anna Sisko, alone long enough to convince her that Sylvia had been telling boys at school that Anna's mother was a whore. When Banashevsky took Anna to see Sylvia, she directed Anna in a violent attack on the girl. Soon after, Banashevsky told one of Paula's friends, a girl named Judy Duke, that Sylvia had been spread. spreading rumors about her mother and pitted the girls against each other in a fist fight. During the fight, Baneshevsky instructed Jenny to punch Sylvia. So when Jenny, Sylvia's younger sister, refused, Gertrude began to beat her in the face herself until Jenny finally agreed to punch Sylvia.

Also, another thing that wasn't mentioned is that the first time that this had happened, like when Coy Hubbard was coming over, Paula also beat the shit out of Sylvia herself, to the point of where Paula broke her own. own wrist hitting Sylvia in the face. And started beating her with her cast. Yeah, so afterwards when she got it casted, she would start bludgeoning her with the cast itself. In August of 1965, the vacant house next door to the Banashevsky residence was purchased by a middle-aged couple named Phyllis and Raymond Vermilion.

Phyllis, seeing the number of children Banishevsky cared for, believed that Banishevsky would make a good babysitter for her two young children, and that she would also be helping Banashevsky out by paying her for her services. The Vermilions arranged a backyard barbecue so that the two families could get to know one another. During the course of the barbecue, Phyllis noticed Sylvia wandering around the yard with a pronounced black eye.

Paula proudly announced to Phyllis that she was the one who had given it to her. Then under Banashevsky's supervision, Paula approached Sylvia with a glass of steaming water and threw it in Sylvia's face. Neither the Vermilions reported this incident to the authorities. So also, Phyllis had stated to police far after the fact that when she saw Sylvia, Sylvia looked pale and malnourished and was just wandering around like a zombie.

It's just crazy to me that nothing was ever brought up. No, no one did a goddamn thing. Two months later, Phyllis went to the Banishevsky home to borrow something. Over the course of the few minutes she was there, she noticed Sylvia wandering around in a daze with swollen lips and a black eye that had swollen shut. To demonstrate how this had happened, Paula took her belt off and began to beat Sylvia with it in front of Phyllis. Phyllis again neglected to report anything to authorities. Around the time that Phyllis Vermilion witnessed Paula beat Sylvia, Sylvia came home from school and told Banishefsky that she needed a sweatsuit for gym class.

When Banishefsky told Sylvia that they could not afford one, Sylvia stole one from school. Banishevsky questioned Sylvia about her new gym outfit, actually coursing Sylvia into confession. Banishevsky inexplicably segued from the topic of Sylvia stealing into the topic of Sylvia being a prostitute and then threw Sylvia onto the ground where she repeatedly kicked her in the crotch before once more returning to the topic of theft. And to cure Sylvia of her sticky fingers, Gertrude burned the tips of each of her fingers with a lit cigarette. Afterwards,

she made Sylvia bend over while she whipped her with a belt. After this incident, the smokers in the Banishevsky home began arbitrarily putting their cigarettes out on Sylvia's body as a reminder for her not to steal. Some time later, Likens went out again to sell old soda bottles for money. When she returned home, Bannyshefsky accused her of prostitution. Gertrude took her into the living room of her home and forced Sylvia to strip naked in front of her sons and several neighborhood boys on the threat of beating Jenny. Once Sylvia was fully naked, Banishefsky handed her a glass Coca-Cola bottle and okay, here I go again. Give me stop it. No, you just go. You can just finish it. Okay, so Banashevsky handed her a glass Coca-Cola bottle and forced Sylvia to masturbate with it in front of the boys and the rest of Banashevsky's children.

If she refused, she would beat Jenny in front of her. And because of this, Sylvia became incontinent as a result. So Banashevsky decided that she was no longer fit to live with humans. and locked her in the basement. The lack of a toilet in the basement forced Sylvia to defecate and urinate on the floor. When Banashevsky saw this, she began a bathing regimen

to cleanse Sylvia, whom she began calling Dirty Girl. This regimen consisted of Gertrude filling a cloth-foot tub with scalding water, binding Sylvia's wrists, ankles, and then dunking Sylvia into it. The regimen was administered arbitrarily, sometimes once or many times

a day, sometimes not at all. Following the baths, Paula Bannashevsky, he would rub handfuls of salt all over Sylvia's nude body. During this period, Banashevsky took on 14-year-old Ricky Hobbs, who was a neighborhood boy, as her personal assistant when dealing with Sylvia, Hobbs, an honor student from a middle-class family with no previous legal trouble at all, experienced a sudden shift in personality upon becoming Banashevsky's assistant, blindly following whatever orders she gave him. Crime reporters have since speculated that Hobbs was Banashevsky's lover and that she had

seduce the boy into becoming her henchmen. Banashevsky's children turned Sylvia into a money-making opportunity and charged neighborhood children a nickel to gawk at the nude Sylvia or to push her down the stairs to the basement, where she was now kept when not being bathed or put on display. She was kept constantly naked and rarely fed. When she was allowed to eat, it was in some bizarre fashion, such as when Banashevsky insisted that she eat soup with her fingers. Often Banishefsky and her 12-year-old son John Jr. would make Sylvia clean the basement by allowing her to eat her own feces and gave Sylvia a container in which she would collect her urine, which she was then made to drink.

Sometime around this period, Jenny managed to send contact to her older sister, Diana, who was married and had a family of her own. Jenny outlined the horrors that she and Sylvia were experiencing and instructed Diana to contact the police to come rescue them. Diana ignored the letter believing that Jenny was simply displeased with being punished and that she was making up stories so that she could come live with her. Around this time, one of the neighborhood children who had been by to see Sylvia, a 12-year-old named Judy Duke, went home and told her mother that they were beating and kicking Sylvia. The girl's mother replied that that is what happened when someone was punished. There's so many witnesses and so many things going on. Just nothing was done. No.

Shortly thereafter, the banner shuff. Vanshevsky's Reverend Roy Julian visited them as part of a program he had set up to see each of his parishioners at their homes. While he and Banashevsky drank coffee, she complained to him that Sylvia had been an intense burden on her, claiming that the girl was a prostitute who had been servicing married men and gotten pregnant. Although at the time Paula Banashevsky was several months pregnant, Gertrude Banashevsky insisted that her daughter was a virgin and that Sylvia was attempting to pass off her own misdeeds onto the Pure Paula. Banishevsky and the Reverend prayed for Sylvia's salvation before the Reverend left. When the Reverend returned again a few weeks later, Paula told the Reverend during prayers that she had hatred in her heart for Sylvia,

to which Gertrude Banishevsky interjected that the opposite was true. Shortly after this, Diana, Sylvia and Jenny's older sister came by to visit them. Banishevsky refused to allow her into the home at first telling her that Lester had contacted her and instructed her not to allow Diana into the home. When Diana questioned this, Banashevsky threatened to call the police and have her arrested for trespassing. Diana hid nearby the house

until she spotted Jenny outside and then approached her. Jenny told her older sister that she was not allowed to talk to her and then ran away. Concerned with this, Diana contacted social services. When a social worker arrived in the home, Banashevsky informed her that she had kicked Sylvia out of the house for being physically unclean and a prostitute, and that Sylvia had run away. Baneshevsky then managed to get Jenny alone long enough to inform her that if she told the social worker the truth,

Jenny would join her sister naked in the basement. Jenny then told the social worker that Sylvia had indeed run away, and the social worker would return to the office where she filed the report saying that no more calls needed to be made to the Banishavsky home. On October 20th, Gertrude called the police to come arrest a boy at her home. Robert Bruce Hanlon was a local youth who claimed that the Bannashevsky children had stolen things from his basement. He had come to the home earlier in the evening demanding that Banashevsky return his things. When she refused, he attempted to sneak into the home to take them back. Phyllis Vermilion witnessed Hanlon being put into the back of a squad car and approached the police to speak on his behalf,

as she had earlier overheard an argument between Banashevsky and Hanlon over some stolen goods. Vermilion made no mention of Sylvia during her conversation with the police. This fucking Phyllis is a cunt. Can't you face charges for that? You could now. Yeah, I guess not then This is the 60s Like everyone just wanted to mind their own business

Yeah, what's crazy It wasn't even small town Like that's small town mentality This was in friggin Indianapolis Yeah On October 21st, Banashevsky instructed John Jr. Coy Hubbard

And Stephanie Banashevsky To bring Sylvia up from the basement And tie her to a bed Telling Sylvia that if she could hold her bladder Through the night, she would be permitted To sleep upstairs again When Banashevsky checks Sylvia the next morning discovered she had wet the bed,

Banashevsky made her dress, then took her to the living area, where she once again was forced to perform a strip tease for her sons and the neighborhood boys. Again, followed by her being forced to masturbate with a Coca-Cola bottle in front of them. When Sylvia finished, she was allowed to dress. After a few moments, Gertrude brought up Sylvia's lies about Paula and Stephanie and declared, to quote, you have branded my daughter, so I will brand you. Sylvia was forcibly stripped naked, tied down, and gagged, while one of Banashevsky's children heated a sewing needle with a series of matches.

When the needle was orange, Gertrude used it to carve and burn the letter I, and a part of the letter M, into Sylvia's stomach. She then instructed Ricky Hobbs, I believe he was 15 at the time, to continue carving letters to spell out the phrase, I'm a prostitute and proud of it. At one point, Hobbs stopped and asked Banashevsky in a confused manner to spell prostitute for him. Banashevsky wrote it down on a piece of paper and the carving burning recommenced. When the process was finished, the tattoo consisting not only of the actual carving,

but third-degree burns left behind by the heat of the needle, was such that even today, modern plastic surgery would not have been able to correct it. Satisfied, Gertrude left the room, leaving Sylvia tied, gagged, and naked. At this point, Ricky, Paula, and Benashev's 10-year-old daughter Shirley decide to give Sylvia another tattoo an S in the middle of her chest. The three would later be confused as to whether they had intended the S as to stand for Sylvia or slave, though the latter explanation was the one that was leaned toward being correct. Ricky burned the bottom curve of the S into Sylvia and then either choked or changed his mind because, he then ordered Jenny to come over to carve the top half.

Although threatened Jenny refused, Ricky relented and ordered Shirley to finish the tattoo. The 11-year-old choked and accidentally carved the curve backwards, so the numeral three appeared on Lichen's chest. Baneshevsky re-entered the room at this point to address the still-bound and gagged Sylvia and said, What are you going to do now, Sylvia?

You can't get married now. You can't undress in front of everyone. What are you going to do now? and Sylvia was unagged to address Banashevsky and weeping she replied I guess there's nothing I can do it's on there Hubbard then took Sylvia back to the basement

where he used her for judo practice for a period of time before returning home in the middle of the night Jenny Likin sneaked into the basement to visit her sister where Sylvia told her I'm going to die I can tell Shortly after Jenny's visit Banashefsky inexplicably went into the basement

and brought Sylvia upstairs and allowed her to sleep in one of the beds. She was allowed to sleep until noon of the next day, October 23rd, when Bannashevsky woke her. Once Sylvia was awake, Banishefsky and Stephanie took her to the bathroom and gave her a warm, soapy bath. After the bath, Bannyshevsky and Paula dressed Sylvia and then dictated a letter to her and tended to look like a runaway letter to her parents. For reasons unknown, Bannyshevsky dictated that Sylvia opened the letter, Dear Mr. and Mrs. Likens, the words which Bannyshevsky did. dictated were. I went with a gang of boys in the middle of the nights, and they said they would pay me

if I would give them something, so I got in the car, and they got all that they wanted. And when they got finished, they beat me up and lift sores on my face and all over my body. They also put on my stomach, I am a prostitute and proud of it. I have done just about everything that I could to make Gertie mad at me and cause Gertie more money than she's got. I've tore up a new mattress and peed on it. I've also cost Gertie doctor bills that she really can't pay and made Gertie nervous wreck and all of her kids. Just as strangely as Banishavsky's insistence on the formal salutation, she instructed Sylvia not to sign him. After Sylvia finished the letter, Banishavsky began formulating a plan to have John Jr. and Jenny take Sylvia to a nearby garbage dump and leave her there to die. I've also read that instead of a garbage dump, it was a nearby forest.

I see both when looking this up. However, when Sylvia overheard this, she ran for the front door, but in her emaciated and mutilated state, she moved so slowly that Banashevsky was able to grab her just as she reached the front door and drag her back into the house. Once Banashevsky settled Sylvia down, she took her into the kitchen and made her some toast. Sylvia attempted to eat it, but then said she couldn't swallow. Banashevsky took the curtain rod down from the kitchen and beat Sylvia in the mouth with it. John then took Sylvia into the basement and tied her up while Banashevsky prepared a plate of crackers for Sylvia. When she offered the crackers to Sylvia, Sylvia replied, feed it to the dog. It's hungrier than I am. Banashevsky repeatedly punched Sylvia in the stomach before leaving her in the basement.

On the next day, October 24th, Banashevsky came into the basement and attempted to bludgeon Sylvia. First she tried to hit her with a chair, but missed and broke it against the wall. Next, she tried to beat her over the head with a paddle, but swung in such a wide arc that it came. came back against her own face, blackening her eye. To stop the strange show, Hubbard stepped in and beat Sylvia unconscious with a broomstick. Over the course of that night and into the morning hours of October 25th, Sylvia beat the basement floor with a scoop portion of an iron shovel. Next door neighbors would later report, considering calling the police but chose not to.

Not only was she beating the concrete with an iron shovel, she was also screaming for help. And yet nothing had happened. And one of the neighbors said that they considered calling the police, but since the noise stopped, they figured whatever was wrong was fixed. It's just so hard to put myself in the minds and the intentions of these people back then. On October 26, Banishavsky voiced her intentions to give Sylvia a warm bath. Stephanie and Ricky brought Sylvia upstairs and laid her in the tub fully clothed. They took her out shortly thereafter when they realized she was not breathing. Stephanie gave Sylvia CPR, but by this time Sylvia was.

already dead. Banishefsky instructed her children to take Sylvia's body to the basement and strip it naked. She then told Hobbs to go to the nearby payphone and call the police, her house not having a working telephone. When the police arrived, Banishesvsky gave them the letters she had made Sylvia dictate. In the midst of the commotion, Jenny Likens, whisper to the police, get me out of here and I'll tell you everything. This statement combined with the police's discovery of Sylvia's body in the basement,

prompted the officers to arrest Banishevsky, Paula, Stephanie, John, Hobbs, and Hubbard for the murder. Other neighborhood children present at the time, Mike Monroe, Randy Lepper, Duke, and Cisco were arrested for injury to a person. So Banashevsky, all her children besides the very youngest, I believe, as well as Hobbes and Hubbard were held without bail pending their trials. Charges against Cisco, Duke, Monroe, and Leper were dismissed. Stephanie's lawyer got her a separate trial, and before it was able to begin, the district attorney dropped the murder charges. Meanwhile, an autopsy of Sylvia Leikins turned up over 100 cigarette burns on her body. In addition to various second and third degree burns, severe bruising and muscle and nerve damage. In her death row, Sylvia bit through her lips, nearly severing each of them.

Do you want me to do it? Her vaginal cavity was nearly swollen shut. Although an examination of the canal determined that her hymen was still intact, largely discrediting, along with the lack of any ripping or tearing to the rectum, Gertrude's assertion that Sylvia was a prostitute and completely disproving her insistence that she was pregnant. The official cause of death was brain swelling, internal hemorrhaging of the brain, and shock. This is very much like the Junko Ferruda case, despite the cultural differences, just how

much the same it looked. And the thing is, is nobody was afraid, unlike Junko Feruta, where people were afraid to come forward, people were just apathetic. people thought this was fun this is more like the kitty jenevese case in some ways some people call this Lord of the Flies but I think it's a little bit different than that we'll get

into that afterwards the case of the state of Indiana versus Gertrude Bannyshevsky John Banishevsky Pala Banishevsky Ricky Hobbs and Coy Hubbard commenced in May of 1966 where the prosecution sought the death penalty for all involved including

John and Hobbs who were 13 and 14 at the time Paula's time in court was interrupted when she was rushed to the hospital to give birth to the child that she and her mother had insisted she wasn't carrying. In a show of solidarity, Paula named the child Gertrude. Banishevsky and the children's cases were exacerbated by the fact that they were being represented by four different attorneys. One for Banishavsky, one for Paula, one for Hobbes, and one for Coy Hubbard and John, all of whom worked against each other and attempted to shift blame against the other defendants, even though they were all being tried. together. Baneshevsky's attorney attempted to shift the blame onto the children, portraying her as weak, chronically ill, and incapable of preventing or perpetuating any of the abuse.

The children's attorneys attempted to shift the blame onto Baneshevsky and the other children. However, some of the most damaging testimony against Gertrude Banishevsky was due to her own self-incrimination. She were crowned bizarre tales of Sylvia Lichens being a neighborhood prostitute and of her trists with middle-aged married men, as well as accusing her of frequently starting fights in the home. corroborate Banashevsky's testimony, 11-year-old Marie was called to the stand. Initially, Marie backed up everything her mother had said until during cross-examination she suddenly screamed, God help me, before admitting everything she said was a lie and went on to recount in graphic, blunt detail how her mother and siblings had tortured and murdered Sylvia.

The young girl's shocking turn against her own family was largely responsible for the eventual verdict. Banashevsky was found guilty of murder in the first degree. To the shock of the citizens of Indianapolis, she did not receive the death penalty, but rather life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. I believe the life imprisonment was suggested by the jury. It was not a surprise choosing of the judge, if I recall. The other thing about this is I just wonder what would have happened had Marie not broken and confessed on the stand. What would have been the result of this case?

I don't know. Like it's still, we'll get to that. The result of this case is still terrible. Yeah, I mean, I know, I know. I just shut her to think, what if she hadn't? Especially when they say that this was the testimony that she was convicted on. So Paula Banisheski was convicted of second-degree murder. She appealed and was granted a new trial. But before it began, she struck a plea bargain and pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter. She served three years in prison. prison and then was paroled. Three years for voluntary manslaughter. Three years. Yep.

She was 17 at the time. Even by today's standards that you can definitely be tried as adult then. You know, where you have somebody who possibly did less that's doing like 60 years at this point. Yep. Yep. So John Banishefsky, Hubbard and Hobbs were each convicted of voluntary manslaughter and sentenced to 18 months in a juvenile detention facility. By the time the now 17-year-old Hobbs was released, the severity of his crimes had sunk in, and he suffered a nervous breakdown. He began a regimen of heavy chain smoking, which had severely decayed his lungs by the time he was 20. By the time he was 21, he was dead of lung cancer. So John Banshevsky, Hubbard, and Hobbs were between the ages of 14 and 16, I believe, when tried. And none of them were tried as adults.

No. Which is crazy to me. because around this period of time, I can remember several cases where kids of this age, I use the term kids loosely, were easily tried as adults, even younger, 10, 11, 12 being tried as an adult. But these kids weren't. These all thoughts. Gertrude Banishevsky appealed her case and was granted a new trial. She was again found guilty. However, this time she was sentenced by the judge 18 years to life before it was life without.

out parole. Over the course of the next 18 years, Baneshevsky became a model prisoner working in the sewing shop and becoming a den mother to younger female inmates. By the time she came up for parole in 1985, she had earned the prison nickname Mom. And I've heard some people question how she was so revered in prison when she killed and abused and tortured a child. Well, I think it's different in women's prisons. It's different in women's prisons. And men's prisons, if you do that to a child, you're probably going to get killed. A lot of women are in prison for killing their children. The vast majority of them are in there for abuse of a child, so the same rules do not apply in women's prison. The news of Banishefsky's parole hearing sent shockwaves through the Indiana community.

Jenny Likens and her family appeared on television to speak out against Banishefsky. The members of two anti-crime groups protect the innocent and society's league against molestation, traveled to Indiana to oppose Banashevsky's parole and support the Likens family, beginning a sidewalk picket campaign. Over the course of two months, the groups collected 4,500 signatures from the citizens of Indiana, demanding that Banashefsky be kept behind bars. In spite of all this, Banashevsky was granted parole. During the hearing, she gave the following confession, I'm not sure what role I had in it, because I was on drugs. I never really knew her. I take full responsibility for whatever happened to Sylvia. There was no evidence that Gertrude Banishavsky was on.

drugs during this period of time. No. Unless you count nicotine as a drug. Banishevsky walked out of prison on December 4, 1985 and traveled to Iowa under the name Nadine Van Fawson. She died there of lung cancer in

1990, just about five years later. Following her 1972 parole, Paula Banishevsky assumed a new name and a new identity. She worked as an aide to a school counselor for 14 years at the Iowa Beeman-Conrad Liscom Union Whitten School District.

having changed her name to Paula Pace and having concealed the truth regarding her criminal history to the school district when applying for the position. She was fired in 2012 when the school discovered her true identity. Paula reportedly lives in a small town in Iowa. She is married and has two children. The baby daughter whom she had given birth to while being tried in 1966 and whom she named after her mother was later adopted. Thank God. The murder charges initially filed against Gertrude Baneshevsky's second eldest daughter, the 15-year-old Stephanie, were ultimately dropped after she agreed to turn state's evidence against the other defendants.

Although prosecutors did resubmit their case against Stephanie before a grand jury on May 26, 1966, the decision to later prosecute her in a separate trial never materialized. Stephanie Baneshevsky assumed a new name and became a school teacher. And of course, this is allowed because she doesn't have any formal charges, or convictions, I should say. She later married and has several children. Her new name is Stephanie Sarikstad, and she currently lives in Florida. Following the arrest of their mother, the Marion County Department of Public Welfare placed Marie, Shirley, and James Banishewski in the care of separate foster families. The surname of all three children was legally changed to Blake in the late 1960s after their father regained their custody.

Marie later married. Marie Shelton died of natural causes on June 8 of 2017 to the age of 62. Dennis Lee Wright Jr. was later adopted. His adoptive mother named him Denny Lee White. He died on February 5, 2012 at the age of 47. Richard Hobbs, Coy Hubbard, and John Banishavsky Jr. each served less than two years in the Indiana Reformatory before being granted parole on February 27, 1968. Richard Hobbs died of lung cancer on January 2nd, 1972 at the age of 21, four years after the release from the Indiana Reformatory. In the years between his release, he is known to have suffered at least one nervous breakdown. Following the 1968 release from the Indiana Reformatory, Coy Hubbard remained in Indiana and never attempted to change his name. Throughout his adult life, Hubbard was repeatedly imprisoned for various criminal offenses.

On one occasion being charged with the 1977 murders of two young men, although largely due to the fact the chief witnessed to testify at his trial had been a convicted criminal acquaintance of Hubbard, who admitted to having been in his company at the time of, of the murders, he was acquitted of the charge. Shortly after the January 2007 premiere of the crime drama and American crime, Hubbard was fired from his job. He died of a heart attack in Shelbyville, Indiana on June 23rd of that year at the age of 56. So American crime is a movie with Ellen Page and James Franco, if I remember correctly, that was made about the Sylvia Likens murder. John Banishevsky Jr. lived in relative obscurity under the alias John Blake. He

became a lay minister, frequently hosting counseling sessions to the children of divorced parents. Several decades after his release from the Indiana Reformatory, John Banishevsky Jr. issued a statement in which he acknowledged the fact that he and his co-defendants should have been sentenced to a more severe term of punishment, adding that young criminals are not beyond rehabilitation and describing how he'd become a productive citizen. He died of diabetes in the Lancaster General Hospital on May 19, 2005 at the age of 52. Prior to his death, he had also occasionally spoken publicly about his past, readily admitting he had enjoyed the attention Likens murder brought upon him and also claiming to only have, quote, ever hit Sylvia once. The other thing about him is that he did take full

responsibility for his role in the murder. Well, I don't know. There's no proof that he did hit her more than once. We're going off of hearsay from all of these people. Unfortunately, that's what we're dealing with. He did admit that a harsher sentence upon him would have been more just. The injury to person charges brought against the other juveniles known to actively, physically, mentally, and emotionally torment Sylvia Lykins, who were Anna Ruth Sisko, Judy Darling Duke, Michael John Monroe, Darlene McGuire, and Randy Gordon Lepper were later dropped. Sisko ultimately married and she died in October 23, 1996 at the age of 44, already a grandmother at this time. Lepper, who had visibly smirked as he testified to having hit Lykins on up to 40 separate occasions, died at the age of 56 on November 14th, 2010.

Jenny Lykins later married an Indianapolis native name Leonard Reese Wade. The couple had two children. She died of a heart attack on June 23rd of 2004 at the age of 54. At the time of her death, Jenny resided in Beach Grove, Indiana. Until the end of her life, Jenny remained haunted by the memories of what she had been forced to witness her sister physically and mentally endure. ultimately resulting in becoming a fragile nervous recluse. Her fatal heart attack is believed to have been triggered by the sound of a doorbell being rung by a pizza delivery man calling at the incorrect address. So sad.

14 years prior to her death, Jenny Likens Wade had viewed Gertrude Banishevsky's obituary in a newspaper. She clipped the section from the newspaper, then mailed it to her mother, with an accompanying note simply reading, Some good news, Dam old Gertrude died. I am happy about that. Elizabeth and Lester Likens died in 1998 and 2013, respectively. In the years prior to her own death, Jenny Likens Wade had repeatedly emphasized no blame should be placed on either of her parents for placing her in Sylvia in the care of Gertrude Banishevsky. Stating, all her parents had done was trust Gertrude's promise to actually care for them until they returned to Indiana from the traveling carnival.

The house at 3850 East New York Street in which Lichens was tortured and murdered stood vacant for many years. after her death and the arrest of her tormentors. The property gradually became dilapidated, although discussions were held in relation to the possibility of purchasing and rehabilitating the house and converting the property into a women's shelter. The necessary funds to complete this project, however, were never raised.

The house itself was demolished on April 23, 2009, and the site where 3850 East New York Street one stood is now a church parking lot. In June of 2001, a six-foot-tall granite memorial was formerly dedicated to Sylvia, Sylvia Likens' Life and Legacy in Willard Park on Washington Street in Indianapolis. This dedication was attended by several hundred people, including members of the Likens family. The memorial itself is inscribed with these words. This memorial is in memory of a young child who died a tragic death. As a result, laws changed and awareness increased. This is a

commitment to our children that the Indianapolis Police Department is working to make this a safe city for our children. I don't even know what to say about this case. I feel like the majority of these people were old enough to know what they were doing was wrong. Yes, they were all being manipulated, but this goes beyond the point of being manipulated into doing things that are somewhat understandable. Who would fault a young boy who's probably never been with a woman, who's being seduced by an older woman, to be made to do certain things? things for her. I mean, that's that's clear sexual abuse of a child. No question there. However, to beat somebody like this, to carve that into her body with a sewing needle while she's like

seizing due to pain, who's strapped to a bed, like I have a hard time believing that these kids could not get away. And if they weren't the Banishevsky children, they could have gotten away. They could have. And the thing is, is we listened to a lot of different sources on this case. And the guy that went and did it, the one that was being was a Hobbes. Hubbard. It was Hubbard or Hobbs was the, okay, Hubbard was Stephanie Banashevsky's boyfriend. Yeah. And Hobbs was the one that Gertrude had seduced, if I'm recalling correctly. Forgive me if I'm wrong. There's a radio interview with him. And he talks about it so matter of. Yeah, he does. He just doesn't care. Yeah, he just admits to all of it as if he was throwing trash out or whatever, just going about his day.

He's just like, yeah, I beat her. Oh, yeah, I did the caravan. At least I did most of it. Just nothing to his voice whatsoever. They just sound remorseless. And other things that I've read about him, just in general, he seemed absolutely remorseless about the whole situation. I'm shocked to hear he never reentered the criminal justice system. Well, he died at 21.

That was Roy Hubbard. I mean, that was Quay Hubbard. I'm getting so confused by these people. Yeah, I know. Roy and Koi. Yeah, I get it. And again, forgive us if we're confusing some of these names. There's too many fucking people in this case that all should have just been executed.

But in the case of Hobbs and Koi Hubbard, one of them practiced judo on Sylvia. The other one burned her with a sewing needle, gave her third degree burns. To the point where today in 2020, no. plastic surgery could have fixed. These are heinous acts to do to a young girl. And they're really bad. I found them online.

I found her stomach. It's really bad. And her body. Yeah. Which looks emaciated as all shit. It looks nothing like... Like her pictures. Like her picture.

It looked like she had already been dead a while. That's what they... That's what she looks like. That's what they think. The coroner guessed that she had been in rigor mortis for eight hours before she was even discovered by police. And all this time, they were just trying to, like, wake her up and stuff like that and throw

her in a bathtub full of water and just keeping her there. I did read in one source that Gertrude kept beating her in the face with a book trying to wake her up. And at one point, before the police came, Stephanie was curled in a little ball with her on the ground crying trying to wake her up. Like, obviously, there's something really wrong with these people. in addition if you don't know this is a very dead body. It kind of surprised me to hear that Stephanie was crying by the body because Stephanie was

quite cruel. Out of all the children, Paula was by far the worst and Stephanie was the clear second. So for her to be crying, it makes me wonder why are you crying because you think something's going to happen to you? Probably. Yeah. Probably. Probably what it is.

But again, the names we listed. These weren't all the people that were over there. I've seen some names thrown around, but not all of them were tried. There's talk that there was at least 50 people that knew what was going on at least. Yeah. And took part in beating her from time to time. Because we had noted on there, they made a game of it and started charging like a nickel to throw her down the stairs. Yeah, throw her down the stairs or to see her naked.

I haven't heard of anyone directly sexually assaulting her. She was just forced to assault herself, basically. but I'd be shocked if that didn't take place. At least to some degree. Yeah, I'd very much be shocked if that didn't take place. When you have something like that, rumors spread around school at that age like wildfire. In a big place like this,

there's no way a ton of people did not know. And as we said earlier, there was that one story of that one girl telling her mother, hey, they're all kicking and beating Sylvia. And she's just like, well, that's what happens when you get punished. I understand that punishment back then was a lot more severe. I'm sure we've all heard our stories of our mom or dads telling us how good we have it, because when I was your age, I got beat with a switch, I got beat with a belt,

I got beat with a paddle, my dad would hit me close fist, like you hear all this stuff. But this goes to an even further degree, and the fact that Gertrude was able to tell people, well, she's a prostitute, she services married men, and people were just so, easily take that at face value, be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense that she'd do that. And it makes sense that you beat her for that. It's just so... And the Reverend did nothing about it. The Reverend did nothing. Yeah. He just prayed for her salvation because she's a dirty prostitute. There's like a lot of shaming going on in this. I don't know what it was with Gertrude's problem with prostitution, but she seemed to have a real thorn up her ass about it.

They think due to having horrible relations with men and having several miscarriages and just her life being pure and utter shit, there's just jealousy towards this young girl. And the reason why Jenny didn't get it was because due to her polio, she was already walking around as if she was crippled. She was small in stature. I think that was enough for Gertrude to not want to target her, though she did if she didn't do what she was told. It's hard to blame, some people blame Jenny for not. telling people when Gertrude threatened her. I don't hold anything against Jenny at all.

I mean, she still was able to tell the cops when she knew that this had gone way too far. Way too far after her sister was dead, she finally told the cop. I don't know. I don't want a victim blamed. Fucking YouTube will light the fuck up with me saying shit. But I wish she could have done more. I wish she could have done more. We all wish that.

I mean, just her age and realizing she's in a crazy house where she cannot get away. and when she's being threatened that whatever happens to Sylvia will happen to you, it's hard for me to blame her. Yes, I wish she did more. I wish she did more. But I just, I have the hardest time blaming her. And again, the ones I more so blame are all the Banishevsky children, all the school children, all the ones that were not under this, this wicked roof of Gertrude Banishevsky. They could have said something. The school could have done more.

Think about it like this. If anybody's thinking here being like, well, Jenny should have done something. Jenny's to blame here. Think of these random kids who are not threatened by this at all and are going over here because they think it's fun. These kids are not afraid of what's going to happen to them if they tell. They just don't care. This is not like Junco Furuto where, oh, we're afraid of the yakuza. Nobody in this house was in the mafia or any organized crime.

She didn't threaten any of the children except for. for Jenny and allegedly some of her own children. So these neighborhood kids did not care. There was just no conscience. And you cannot tell me that any of them were young enough to not know the difference. They absolutely knew the difference. People are saying that these kids just didn't know any better. Some of the youngest ones, and the ones in the Banashevsky household, it's a little bit different.

You know, you've been brainwashed since you were born. your reality's been warped but if you're functional and you're going to public school which is why in the case of say like for example paula and stephanie they're absolutely 100% guilty but i think what disgusts me the most is just these people who had no connection were not threatened and they just could not say a thing not could not they just chose not to it meant nothing to them out of everything in this that's what sickens me the most the second most being the neighbors and people in social services.

No, that fucking Phyllis pisses me off. Yeah. Fuck Phyllis. Even her name sucks. Fuck Phyllis. Like what the, dude? This wasn't just a scenario. So here's why I feel so strongly.

Hold on here. Let's time out for a second. Even though she was watching fucking Sylvia, wandering around like a zombie in a barbecue, watching Stephanie throw scalding water in her face, and then watching Paula beat her in the face with a belt, she still thinks it's a good place to have her kids go for daycare? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Fuck you, Phyllis.

What the fuck is wrong with you? This isn't a case of, I want to be very clear when it comes to Phyllis. This is not a case of I saw one thing and I'm not sure if I'm overreacting or if this isn't what I think it is. You've seen four or five situations where clearly there is overed abuse going on, a malnourished child, a child that's like wandering around days like she's been concussed. You know full well what's going on. And it just fuck. That's just fucks with me. Like her eyes were swollen shut. It just fucks with me. If only I could just have been a fly in the wall and hear how people

talked about this. That's what I want. I'm just so utterly perplexed at how this could have been spoken about in a nonchalant or a positive manner. I just, I don't. I don't. I don't. get it. I do not get it. Like, I don't know how social services, for one, even allowed, even if they didn't know about Sylvia, the kids to just be removed from the home. This was a home that was in squalor. There was no stover microwave. There was no food there. There was probably a dog being starved. There was grime all over everything. So there was not enough beds for people living there. There's only like three or four beds, I think. So how. did social services just not remove all of the children to begin with?

I basically assume that standards were very lax back then. I mean, they're pretty lax right now. They're incredibly lax now, but... And I don't want to talk a lot of shit. Like, I have friends who work in social services, and their jobs are fucking hell. Yeah. But, yeah. And you hear those horror stories of kids stabbing their social workers to death.

But, I mean, Jesus Christ, this was so... horribly handled by the social worker. And I believe when the social worker has to come into the home, they have to do a full inspection of the home. They have to see every room. So that means she just never went into the basement or they kept Sylvia in a closet or something. I'm assuming they just kept her in the basement and there was no inspection done. I wouldn't even be shocked if she didn't even go in the house. She just met him at the front door. That's probably what happens. Which there required by law to go into the house.

I'm almost positive. This whole case just fucking wounds me. It was horrible enough to read Junco Furuda and to think that this went on. You know, a lot of people said about Junco Furuda. I've read online, not on our video of it, but other people that, oh, this would never have happened in America. It absolutely happens. And how many more Silvius are there?

Yeah, I had mentioned that in Junko Feruta. If this came to light, just how many more Junko Feruta is the thing? there are there in the world. Well, now you see the Sylvia case. Just how many Sylvia's are there in the world? She didn't have any nails left when they found her. No. They were all like broken and bent off backwards off of her hands. Yes, they were. When I say how many Silvias are there in the world, again, we go back to the court case. Had Marie not broken on the stand, what would have happened? Would Gertrude have gotten life imprisonment? Would she have gotten criminal negligence and gotten a reduced? sentence and then all the kids, maybe they get voluntary manslaughter and not murder and then just everybody does a couple years and goes upon their merry way. It still does happen. We had two cases almost just like this in Maine last year. Did we? Well, at least they were convicted last year,

but we had one little girl who was in Stockton Springs where her mother and stepfather just beat her every single day until she eventually died from being beaten to death. Oh, that's right. And they just both got convicted of murder. But that one was also mishandle. by social workers who went in there and didn't do anything to take her away. And then there was one in Wisconsin, where this little girl went into the care of her grandparents and the step-grandmother kept beating her over and over and over and over again until she, like, had a laceration of the liver and, like, blood to death. So she recently got tried and was trying to appeal her sentence.

But this happens all the time. And, like, social services were involved in both cases prior to the kids dying. There's another one, too, that Logan March, she was a little girl who was in the Chelsea. area. And she was actually in the care of a social worker that's tied her to a chair in the basement and abused her until she died. And the lady who who abused her is out of prison already. Correct me if I'm wrong. But it appears to me that men who abuse and murder children, the law is far more heavy handed with them than women who do. It is. Like take into account that mutual friend we know. Yes.

whose daughter was murdered by the mother. Yep. She's going to be getting out like in our lifetime and she's not going to be that old. Yeah, I think she has 10 more years left. 10 or 20. She's going to be like in her 50s when she gets out. And I think she's going to be eligible for parole. Probably soon.

Probably I believe soon when we last checked on it. And this was somebody I knew personally. That one's for a later date. I have to get some approval before we do that one. But just again, as an example, I don't know what happened. in the courtrooms or built into the law itself that makes it so a mother or any maternal figure who beats tortures or kills a child why there's so much forgiveness there. They talk like, oh, the woman was crazy, you know, this is just postpartum.

None of that happens to men, which I'm not saying that men should get it lighthanded. No, they deserve everything they get, but why is there all this forgiveness towards mothers? I don't get it. neither. And this is something that people don't really talk about. In fact, in reviewing this case, I never thought about it until just right now when sitting here when I brought it up. I feel like I need time to process this because I just wonder how many get away with this. How many cases do we know of people who get manslaughter or some pittance of a sentence for taking the life of a child? Yeah. For women, it's very rarely first degree murder unless you're a woman of color. Isn't it

crazy how we have so many people in legislation that are pro-life, but do not seek the maximum penalty against people who kill their own children. I don't get it. It does not make any sense to me, because this is absolutely not pro-life, in my opinion. No. You have anything else? No. Okay, I guess that's all we have. I know we went longer than we usually do, but I didn't really want to break this up into two parts. Not really. going to do any plugs. Again, our social media is in the description if you really want to support us. But we'll be back next week with something probably a little bit more lighthearted. Absolutely. I want to laugh next week. Yeah. All right. Until next time, we love you.

We love you. All right. Bye. Bye.