The Misery Machine - He Oversaw Two Murderers? The Vin and Sori ACS Call Center Interview

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

Vin and Sori are one of the leading music review channels, but did you know Vin used to be our boss? He was present as a supervisor and later an operations manager at Affiliated Computer Services during the Donna Paradis case and the Christiana Fesmire case respectively. Watch until the end to get the full behind the scenes of what went on at our call center during these times. A very special thank you to Levi for supporting our show as our highest tier patron! Levi's Fundraising Page: https://gofund.me/6b9e4f07 Support Our Patreon For More Unreleased Content: https://www.patreon.com/themiserymachine Buy Us A Coffee! https://www.buymeacoffee.com/miserymachine Join Our Facebook Group to Request a Topic: https://t.co/DeSZIIMgXs?amp=1 PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/themiserymachine Instagram: miserymachinepodcast Twitter: misery_podcast Discord: https://discord.gg/kCCzjZM #themiserymachine #podcast #truecrime Source Material: https://www.centralmaine.com/2013/10/18/robinson_sentenced_to_55_years_in_beating_death_/ https://www.sunjournal.com/2014/06/12/lewiston-man-goes-court-new-trial-murder-case/ https://lawyers-maine.com/lewiston-man-goes-to-court-for-new-trial-in-murder-case/ https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/local/missing-woman-murder-trial-begins/97-355505914 https://bangordailynews.com/2016/02/02/news/high-court-upholds-murder-conviction-finds-prosecutor-engaged-in-misconduct/ https://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/09/news/lewiston-auburn/witness-says-brother-confessed-to-drowning-disposing-of-victim/ https://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/09/news/lewiston-auburn/witness-says-brother-confessed-to-drowning-disposing-of-victim/ https://caselaw.findlaw.com/me-supreme-judicial-court/1724837.html https://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/16/news/lewiston-auburn/lewiston-man-found-guilty-of-murder/ https://bangordailynews.com/2011/12/01/news/hearing-continues-for-man-charged-with-murder-in-lewiston-escort%E2%80%99s-death/ https://bangordailynews.com/2013/10/18/news/christiana-fesmires-killer-to-serve-55-years-in-prison/ https://news.yahoo.com/news/soldier-says-lewiston-defendant-murder-115811345.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABAM9Kz_RZGZWdOseih4n4Zp22Npenfu3kqv5UCJDSNkm6cBVbe46b3RlSm9MqAmMvE_wJ3PaHIgC6_c1unlpHsGXHj-gcVf5QHZ91GIufU_Unsy77HMF9NZIaiTna8cnkmwt_WDWlEvLzvYxwPdSIcA1l2oeK6w0DR0iS2JhZLA https://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/10/news/witness-says-murder-suspect-talked-of-body-in-trunk/ http://stronghancock.frontrunnerpro.com/book-of-memories/1021769/fesmire-christiana/obituary.php https://pdfslide.net/documents/levi-gervais-and-brandi-robinson-affidavit.html https://www.sunjournal.com/2013/10/18/auburn-candidate-says-grown-since-murder-trial-testimony/ https://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/08/news/sister-of-accused-murderer-testifies-she-recruited-victim-to-be-an-escort/ https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20111015/NEWS/111019842 https://bangordailynews.com/2013/10/18/news/christiana-fesmires-killer-to-serve-55-years-in-prison/ https://www.wcvb.com/article/dna-confirms-body-is-that-of-maine-murder-victim/8176187 https://www.necn.com/news/local/_necn__police__woman_s_body_found_in_lisbon__maine_necn/56501/ https://apnews.com/article/b3aa5b5d6f8c41219d598f35faf42b56 https://issuu.com/utimesumpi/docs/10.21.11 https://www.facebook.com/Bowlingwithjimmy

Alright, you've been asking what happened behind the scenes on the ACS call floor. We're going to get into that today with Vin from Vin and Sorri. There's a lot of dirt here, so you're going to want to watch the end. So without further ado, let's go. Okay, so I think probably the best place to start is in order. Like, you both were in Live Bridge before it was ACS in the middle building. Yeah, so like I didn't start until we were in the Old Ames building, 2007 or 2008, I think I started. Yeah.

So we can talk about some of the sketchy stuff. with ACS or LiveBridge as we go, but as far as the murders are concerned, I think probably the best place to start is Donna Parody. Yes. So I was, I think I had just quit to go back to school and then all that happened, but you two were like right in the thick of it. You were a supervisor. I was actually Donna's supervisor, rest and peace for her, when she was killed. So Donna, at the time, was pregnant. She was about seven or eight months pregnant.

I'm not sure. Yeah, I think she was eight based on the research I found. Yeah, yeah. Really, but really excited because she just got engaged. Yeah. And she was going to get married and she had this baby. And so I remember, because I was her supervisor, pretty much every, there's this girl, Katie, this other dude,

and then Donna, we would give them rides. So if you were soup and you had cars, we would give people rides, Especially in the way we were her name, it's just, it's brutal. So I remember, you know, giving Donna a ride because she was locked. I was like the person that was driving her for what I called out or whatever. I was like, I got you after work, you know, just hang out a little bit because she ended half an hour before I did. And so she waited for me and I was able to drive her. And, you know, she was kind of quiet.

I don't know if you got to interact with her. She was a little bit. Not really. Like, I didn't even know who Donna was until, you know, she disappeared. And I never got to meet her, so. Beautiful. Beautiful beautiful, you see the pictures. She was very quiet, shy.

She wouldn't talk a lot to a lot of people, but when she's around the girls, you know, they kind of stick together and older girls that would talk to each other. And so she had a little crew, but you barely heard anything from her really good worker. She never gave me any trouble. She was not a very good salesperson,

which we were a sales thing, but she was so nice. nice that, you know, she never came up in the back office discussions with the managers. So that's how, you know, when you lose somebody like that you work so close to, it's tough. But that's how I remember is that car ride that her and I had. And I was talking about the snow and talking about her kids. And she was very, very excited to get married for sure. I mean, obviously that was the first murder in that building.

What was the worst? because there's a lot of like sketchy people there was some weird stuff going on there but what was like the worst thing you had heard of happening at ACS criminally up until that point yeah so I was a

supervisor so as a supervisor I was involved with interviewing and hiring people and for me when I would hear rumors I would just say that's impossible because I myself if you know you go

through hiring crunches, you know, where you have to have X amount of people. And the client is, you know, yelling at you. How come you guys aren't staffing? You're like, oh, we're going to hire people. And so I've been in really desperate situations where we needed headcount and the candidate was awesome. But then you get a call from recruiting that says, this person didn't pass the background. You can't hire them.

So from my vantage point as a supervisor, and I was like, oh, that's all. That's just urban legends. Those are missed. They wouldn't even get through the door. you know with our policy because we've been in desperate situations where we had to hire where I would have hired anybody

and it got shot down so I didn't believe any of them I didn't believe any of the stories I just took it as because I'm from New York City someone like the Bronx New York so I just took it as Lewis did as like the

the inner city in Maine so they're making up all these urban legends that's high to me you know what I'm saying like I didn't really believe any of the over-the-top stuff just because I thought that's impossible there's no way they'd get hired. So to your knowledge, they were doing background checks.

So the rumor was they were kind of skimping on the background checks there for a while. I know personally I was never background checks, but I was very, very early on because I was one of the Live Bridge. That was, yeah, you were a Live Bridge, OG. Same with me. They didn't background check me either. You wouldn't found it. Yes, I do, well, well, here, I don't know if you guys remember this, but. But when we moved from the Bates Mill to the Ames building, the guy in charge was like...

I liked him. Oh, I like to. I described him as Michael Scott from the office. Yes, absolutely. Like, he was literally that guy. Like, literally corporate had to come in and, like, hold his hand the whole nine yards. Like, it was exactly... As a matter of fact, the way that I got introduced to the office was we were talking about him.

And I was like, I can't believe this guy is like running our entire shop. Like, this is insane. This guy is nicest guy on the planet. Just massively incompetent, bro. Like, he hired me as a supervisor, like, directly because there was no one to interview me. This is who I'm thinking of. Did he, somebody had like a works bomb? It was like, uh, and he went out back and kicked it.

Okay, so this happened. I was just about to bring this up. That happened. Somebody had one of those, those canister shells. for like military artillery that are hollowed out that some people use as afts, or they fill it with sand and put it in the back of their truck.

That's what happened. Someone had it in the back of their truck to weigh it down and it rolled out. So they thought there was a bomb. So this particular person went out and kicked it. It was right in the front parking lot. This is the director, not of

a project. Because we had a call center. You have a call center, right? And usually like if you're calling T-Mobile or whatever. You're not calling T-Mobile directly. They're outsourcing to another group and that's who you're talking to. So we'll have like a T-Mobile, Verizon. You have a bunch of them in the building and then you have people that run those specific projects. But then you have the site director who's responsible for everybody. The Bob Tester was our site director. Yes. It was not, so this is like a Michael Scott type kick. Everybody loved him, just like Michael

Scott. Like you watch it, you love him. But you're like, glad he's not my boss. Like, holy moly, the guy was great guy, but completely incompetent. Okay. So during that period, we had to staff our campaign. The campaign that we were on was an extremely volatile client. They were very forward-thinking. If I mentioned them, you know who they were.

They were very forward-thinking. They were very kind of at the edge of things. And so because of that, it was hard to manage them. as a client because they were show demanding and and they were so out of the box that the normal things that you could say to calm them down you couldn't calm them down so like we went through a period for a whole month where they said if you guys aren't at xyz we're pulling your project so that's hundreds of jobs that's I mean you know you know what that kind of pressure was like and um we were able to you know we had a couple of rock star supervisors who were able to pull us out

of it and literally saved the project Well, then the client went from, we're going to cut you guys to, you guys need to staff up to 500 in three months, which is, we never did it. We failed. But it was during that time period when that was happening with tight director Michael Scott that the standards for hiring went down exponentially. Yes. And the justification for it was if we can't get these people in time, then people are going to miss out on all these jobs, and we can provide 500 jobs for people.

So you're in the inner city in Louisston, Maine, and so there's this whole, hey guys, this is great news. As a person who's been in the industry, like, I've seen that's where a lot of mistakes get made, is not being able to say no. It's because all of those seats represent $200,000 or whatever. So you're multiplying 200K by 500 seats, That's all they're thinking about.

They're not thinking about anything else. So it was in that situation where you have a very demanded client asking for all these people, compounded with you have a guy who's running the site who is not the most competent individual. So his decision was we're going to lower the standards for hiring. We're going to look the other way on non-rearables as well as we're going to look the other way on criminal background check. unless it's a crime of honesty right so if the the client we were in found out that

you hired someone who had a crime of honesty that's a person who plays around with money right then we could be in serious trouble but the other crimes not so much so we had people in our campaign that were crime of honesty

that they just kind of let them but you were on a health care campaign. No, I was on a credit card customer, credit card rewards customer service. Okay, financial service. Okay. So that's how bad it got. So even there, so

initially it was well, we can look the other way on these types of things as long as it's not crime and honesty because our particular client only looked for crimes of honesty. Yeah. So I just want people to understand, like, you were on a similar campaign. If they found out

you hired somebody that had crime of honesty in their background, they pulled the campaign like I've read the contracts. Okay, it's called a statement of work. I've read the SOWs and all of them universally have it in there. So the fact that that was being allowed to happen, again, it indicates how loose the standards were being held to, say it that way. Yes. And it was in that time period that Richard was hired.

So another thing that I heard that's out there is pretty soon while we were still over at the Bates Mill he started harassing a co-worker and sexually assaulted her is that a thing there there was a co-worker that actually went to me specifically about Richard

so I went to Richard and I said hey man and you know he gave a statement and then I went to my manager and I said hey here's the situation here's what's going on I do not know what the follow-up was after that.

She said over and over again, nobody listened to me, nobody listened to me. And I understand why she said that, because when it got escalated, you know, you're taught to keep these things, you know, it's private, right? Because if somebody accuses you, this is still America,

you're still in us until proven guilty you have to do an investigation. So when I escalated that to our OM, I didn't hear anything about it, but that did, I interpreted that as, oh, he's keeping confidentiality. This is over my head because this guy's about to get himself fired. But that was also during the period.

She reported that, and I escalated it, during the period that we were transitioning from Bates to the Ames building. Yes. So I never heard anything about it ever again. She never came back to me. She wasn't on my team, but the girl's kind of new. If you have a problem, you go to me. I'll try to follow it up or whatever.

I don't play around with that stuff. but she never came back to me so I said okay the situation is squashed well I never heard about him actually sexually assaulting her the story she told me

was he cornered her in a smoke check and was saying some pretty suggestive things to her because Richard used to hang out with there was a whole crew of people that Richard was part of and they were all younger than him by the way They were like our age and Richard at the time was like in his 40s, like mid-40s.

And we were in our 20s. He was given a lot of them rides, I understand. We were kids in our 20s and Richard is hanging out with like all of our friends, all the ones we used to talk to and hang out with. You got this 40 plus, but everybody loved it. Everybody in that crew, everybody loved it. So like even after everything came out with him, they were mostly girls were protecting him and saying, you know, they couldn't believe he would do such a thing. but according to this woman, he quartered her to smoke shack and said a bunch of sexually suggested things to her,

things that he wanted to do, et cetera. And one of them came up to me and said, hey, I heard so-and-so said this about Richard, it's not true, yada, yada, yada. And I said, oh, I said, were you there? Because I'm still, still like, you know, if I get extra information, I'm going to send it to my NOM. She goes, well, no, I wasn't there. And I said, well, then how do you know it?

You see him exactly. Well, I know Richard. You've been around him for three months. Like, I know when you met him, unless you knew him outside of work, like, what do you mean you knew him? But anyway, so that's what happened. You know, to this day, I don't know what the truth is. I mean, obviously now considering everything that happened, it appears that he was, you know, guilty of that as well. But, yeah, she did, she did report that, and then nothing happened.

It really feels like that happened quite a bit because I remember my first drama that I had to deal with with a supervisor was a police officer called me at my desk, stating that a sexual assault happens in our parking lot between one of my agents on my campaign and an agent on your campaign. And that there was a pregnancy involved. And after that, I don't think there was any sort of follow up. the when you would talk to corporate because you know after the the Donna situation you know we were on America's most wanted at one point really yeah I didn't know that either yeah rich ended up on America's most wanted so we the our client was extremely worried about optics so we like for example Donna's daughter who actually works with us ended up

and settlement. Yeah. But, so, so corporate, their main fear was how we appear to other potential clients or how we appear

to our current list of clients. That was a major, one of the major reasons why we went through another main change iteration was mainly because our reputation took a massive, massive hit.

So the priority for corporate was almost 100% financial. It was 100 percent. How do we look to our clients, et cetera, et cetera? So everything was about from my advantage point, obviously. I'm just a kid in my 20s at the time.

What do I know? But it appeared to me that it was just about shoving everything under the rug. And nothing happened. We'll move on. And, you know, firing people at the back door or whatever, you know, solving the problem in a way that didn't let the rest of us know, hey, this is going on.

Hey guys, this is unacceptable. We will fire you. Hey, girls, this is unacceptable. Report it. That wasn't going on. It was just, you had a group of people you could talk to, and they would listen to you. Yeah. People thought, oh, you could talk to Vitting, but there, I mean, I'll admit there wasn't much I actually could do other than what they told you to do.

And obviously, you know, to this day, it's something that, you know. Yeah. I just remember, after it happened. both times after it happened they'd have the loosen police come in and give some like total like crapshoot self-defense thing for the ladies they'd install some security that basically I don't think they even had a taser just to make people feel happy they put after Donna died they put security cameras in the back and again when I look at the essence the statements said work, all of them, all of our clients said that the entire building should be surveilled.

It was like 280 degrees of surveillance or something like that. Basically, a front and the back had to be. And then if you were a standalone building, then the sides, you were responsible for the sites. Like, I looked at the SOWs. It took a murder for that to happen. Yeah. And then on the back end, there was nobody monitoring those videos. So it wasn't like cameras were there for any sort of prevention or,

or like in motion interdiction it was all post so if you got rigs now we can at least see but nobody was actually like monitoring the cameras to make sure anybody was safe back there but even in post they didn't even use it so they're I had a friend on another campaign this was probably 2010 she had an ex-boyfriend come took a can of paint dumped it on her car and I think he might have broken a window so they have the tapes pulled Louis-Supidi comes in and they say yeah we can't really see what goes on in and you, if you want to pay us to upgrade our software, we'll do something about it. Other than that, you're screwed. Yeah.

Yeah, that was a major thing. So my campaign gets into this big hiring blitz, and I interviewed a couple people. And one of the people, there's a group of people I interviewed, one of them was a brother's sister couple. Yes. Well, they weren't a couple, but you see what I'm saying. So I interviewed the sister first. The sister was probably the best interview. you at the agent level I've ever done in my entire life. She was entrepreneurial. She was brilliant.

She very bright. Just, she believed everything. You just tell that girl's got, she's a man, she's going to be a manager. So that was Brandy. Is it a Brandy? Yeah. So I hired her like halfway into the interview. She said, oh, my brother is coming too low. I said, oh, what's his name? I look out for him. Her brother's name is buddy. He says, I cool. So I go to. talk to Buddy. Buddy gives an okay interview. It wasn't very good. But Brandy was his sister.

So I'm like, all right, we'll hire her. That's fine. So I arre both. Brandy, another campaign stole her like immediately. Yes. I was so angry. There was a lot of back office conversations about that. I'm like, I interviewed her.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thank you very much for being a team player. And they took that girl. I don't think. I'm still sorry about that because I knew she's going to make us a lot of mine. But, but Buddy ended up on my campaign.

And you, I don't know if you were with me at the time, but I was with me. I don't know if we're going to keep that in here, but anyway. One of your, because you were ops at the time, I had promoted to an office manager,

so now I've got supervisors reporting to me. So one of my female supervisors comes in there and she goes, you know, that buddy dude is weird. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, he's saying all types of weird stuff to me.

And I said, what stuff? And she goes, ah, yeah, yeah. So she starts, like, scurrying around. And I was like, no, tell me, what is he? What are he saying? Well, he said to him sexual order. And I said, she goes, just leave it, leave it, leave it. Well, the Donna thing had happened like a year before.

Yeah. So I'm like, I'm not, I'm not escalating. I'm not doing any of this. I'm just going to fire the dude. So he came in. I said, did you say this to her? And he basically said, oh, I was just joking, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, cool.

Oh, give me your back. So I took his badge and I turned it. I didn't go to, and you know, like, when you, when you were to terminate somebody, it's a giant process. You go to HR. You've got to have four write-ups before, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. HR approval. Yeah, and HR will say, well, have you warned them before?

So, like, have you shot somebody on the call for it? Like, well, did you warn them not to shoot anybody? Did you put out a memo? Blah, blah, blah. And so my thing is, like, I'm not going to have that on my conscience. I don't care if I get fired. Like, I can deal with being fired. I can't deal with being

because I mean I'm partially responsible for the down of thing no matter what anybody says in my opinion so buddy's there I'm like you're out you're gone

he's like just like that just like that bro give you your badge you're out so I fired buddy immediately he's going my supervisor comes back in she goes

what the hell what are you doing I said I'm not playing with that because if he's doing that to you and you're a supervisor then guarantees he does it to somebody else so that was my

that was my rule of five right like if one person comes to you, that means five people are experiencing and they're not going to tell you. Especially women in the workplace. It just, they will not. It doesn't matter how powerful they are, they just won't. So that's part of the reason I'm doing

this, like, is to try to get people and be like, yo, this is really important. The type of person that will do that to a woman is it's not like a sexual assault or and a murderer live in different galaxies. The mental

framework that goes into being a rapist is almost exactly similar to being a murderer. You don't have any value for a person's personal law and autonomy. People are not important to you. The only thing that's important is you and what you can get out of this experience. 100%. So, is what I did right? No, because I took her word against his. I didn't give him a fair trial

and I was completely biased because I've been working with this girl for a year at that time. She was one of my folks, and I was never, I just swore to myself, I'll never let that happen to him. So, technically on paper, I didn't do the right thing, like the guy's supposed to have his day in court and all the rest of it, but the fact of the matter is, I had just been through

and all of us had just been to a traumatic situation, and I was not going to be part of that anymore. So I turned the guy, I'm like, you're out. Then I made a non-rehire rule, because you can go in the system and say, you know, because, you know, sometimes it's not the right time for a person, a person comes back, they do great. So I've seen

that happen. So I was always, you know, if you wanted to fire somebody and I'd say, all right, Jessel, what are we doing? Areable, non-re-re-hireable? And usually, usually, it was you know, rehirable unless, you know, whatever. I was pretty, I would just go with what my suit said. But

that guy, I didn't have non-re-re-hire. And I explicitly said, sexual misconduct, because you could put it in the comment section. I'm floor walking, two or three months later. I see Buddy on a another financial campaign. Talk.

I'm looking around like, maybe this is his brother. Yuddy or something. So I go to one of the main guys on that project and I said, that guy's back. They're like, yeah, yeah, his buddy, his buddy Levi gave him a good word. Yes, at this point, he was on my campaign. I had moved over to membership. Yeah. So you didn't know that had happened prior to this at all. I had no idea. He just came into that training class with all of those problematic people that I was telling you about.

That training class, we had the one guy that was always screaming all the time. We had all these people who were showing up drunk. They all quickly became homeless for whatever reason, including Buddy, and lived over at the Travelodge. It was the strangest thing. That was a Travelage class. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody heard about that class, by the way. It was terrible. Again, I didn't believe it. But it was a really bad class.

It was a very bad class. But again, you guys, you guys were on a big, big hiring crush. It was a big hiring thing. They did not care who they were hiring. Like, these people were terrible. I had, like, marched out of there on my lunch break. I'm like, I can't do this. They need to all go.

And my ops manager at the time didn't even care. Nothing works in a bad class. That was one of our. major, we always had fights with, remember this, we fight with recruiting, and then we fight with training, because people would come out, folks couldn't read. So, like, I'm not exaggerating.

So he ends up on the phones again. And I'm like, how did this guy get back? I'm like, he does not read. They're like, yeah, but his buddy put him in a good, because Levi, now remember, I mentioned Brandi, Brandi, they kidnapped Brandi immediately and took her, and she took off.

She did very well, like, Radicate. Right? And Brady and Levi are dating. Yes, at this point. Which is a very weird situation because he was the trainer, and I heard some things about the two. The whole thing happening in the smoke area. Allegedly. Allegedly. I...

It happened. Apparently they didn't catch that on the cameras. So I didn't know, well, it's all in post. So I didn't know about that, but what I saw was I just saw there's a lot of really young girls always around his stuff. table always seems very friendly around Levi's table. Like even when he was on your original campaign at night there were all these girls

who were like barely like obviously they were 18 you had to be 18 to work there but barely be flocking around him and he's like a man in his late 30s at the time. The other thing about Levi was at some point I'll find a picture he was not a very attractive guy

like not even a little bit like he wasn't he was not a very attractive dude at all. So it was very strange. He had these three drugs that he had and kind of like a man bun and then he was, it was just very strange dude. Which is fine.

Like obviously I'm, I'm aware of me. I'm not a supermodel either. But it was just very strange because Brandy, Brandy was not very pretty, but she was put together. Yes. She was very function. You could tell she was high functioning, like, right?

Yeah. She wasn't like a supermodel, but like, she. She was very well put together. Right. And she was very charismatic. Correct. Right. Yeah.

And Levi. He was a little charismatic as well. 100%. I'm just talking about his physical appearance. I couldn't figure out anything that was going on in that little ecosystem. To this day, I still don't understand how he had all those girls around him, other than maybe Brandy. But anyway, so long story short, this Levi guy hired, re-hires, Buddy. Levi is with Brandy.

And I guess Levi is friends with Buddy. So Levi and Buddy are friends and then and then Levi and Brandy are together. Yes. Which made no sense but whatever. I mean, me and Soria together doesn't make sense either so it is what it is. Okay. So, so yeah. So there's Levi and Buddy and

Brandy. So I fired, I fired I fired Buddy because of the experience that I had the year earlier with Donna and Richard. Richard Dwyer. So if we were flashed back there a year previous to that, we moved to the new building. Everything's going fine. I dropped on and off or whatever. And then the next day, you know, a couple days later I come to work, Donna is that not there?

So Mike comes out to me Mike is her supervisor at the time Mike who is extremely meticulous about the performance of all of his agents so he comes up to me he goes Donal didn't show up to work today Now Mike was the best supervisor

in the building in my opinion as far as like the nuts and bolts of what you need to be a you know whatever He was on all this stuff Me I didn't know that my folks were gone Until like a third person Now I'd be like oh wait a second This person is in here

But Mike, Mike knew everybody, and he knew everything. He knew if you were a minute late. He knew if you were a minute late. He knew if you were 20 seconds over in your lunch. Because he showed me how to find that. Right. And he knew. And there's nothing you to do.

Like, he knew his stuff. Anyway, he comes up and he says, Don, now Mike was my best friend on the floor. He's my guy. So he comes up and he's like, Don isn't here. I'm like, all right. Everybody else here? He's like, yeah. I'm going to miss out on eight hours.

You know, next day. He comes up to me. Completely stressed out. Donna's not there and she's not picking up her phone. So Donna, Mike is really, really invested in his folks. Donna was a really, really good worker. Like I said, wasn't the best salesperson, but as far as depend on it. So this was a no-call, no-show two days in a row.

Two no-call-no-show in a row. Mike is terrified. I'm laughing. I'm like, Mike, come on, bro. Like, we're not the most important show in town. Something happened to work because she hasn't showed up to work for two days. Come on, bro. Like, relax.

He's like, I'm telling you, Vince, you wouldn't do this, you wouldn't do this, blah, blah. Something happened to her. I'm like, she'll be back to work tomorrow, bro. We're good. He's like, yeah, give a little hug. You're good, man. Don't worry, you're good. I just him back to the same.

Next day I show up, somebody intercepts me before I didn't get to the door. Have you seen down a parody? I'm like, my first thought was, this fool went and called the police. He freaked out and he called the police. I said, nah, I mean, I drove her, you know, I gave her a ride last week. And the guys are, like, you gave her a ride? Where did you give her a right? Where did you go to?

What colors your car? Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, was this a cop or private investigator? This is a detective. Okay. Turns out he was in regular. He starts grilling me. So I'm looking at that dude, like, he's like, let me see your car.

So I'm like, okay. And he asked me all these questions, blah, blah, blah. He's like, who's the last person you started with? All this CSI. I'm like, I'm still not, this whole time I'm thinking about Mike,

I'm like, yo, bro, you'd be so embarrassed when she walks through them doors, bro. You're gonna be so embarrassed. So I went straight to Mike. I'm like, Mike,

I told you she was gonna be good. He goes, yeah, he's like, look. I'm like, yeah, you called him. He's like, I didn't call anybody, bro. Her daughter put out of missing purse,

like, we don't know where she is. And that's when it hit me, like, yo, she's truly, we don't know where she is. and that was a really difficult moment for me because I was like oh my God

and it didn't even me or anybody nobody thought it could be somebody from our group which of course it's the only thing she did all she did was work and she'd go home that's all she did because she took care of her entire family

I don't know if you know who her brother is oh Jesse yeah so like she was a nature of her that entire family like and that's why like her death like really hit me because when I went to the funeral I'm like it was just for kids I'm like these people have nobody bro like she was it for them so so anyway it finally hit me like dang she's missing like this is really this is crazy and then like in the days after people were like well what about the husband everybody's looking at the husband or the fiancee because she was always talking about this dude but

we could never see him well that's because he was in Greece so my life Mike's come out to me. He's like, yo, it's a husband, blah, blah, blah, that's a son of a bitch, and I'm like, yo, what, what happened? Bro, he went from Greece kidnapped her, and then, like, well, like, she's, she's got, she's got a little sister over here, she's got a daughter over here. She didn't have been out of her family. Like, she would do that. And, uh, he was like, he said something like, he, he killed her. And I was like, I was like, yo, I was like, Mike, you're crossing the line, bro. Like, relax. This is our cold. worker like relax and uh i just remember coming to work man and and sitting up in my station and like periodically looking at the doors like trying to like will her through the door or whatever and uh it was weird richard richard

so at the time the cops are like all all in dude's house they were pulling up this floor i didn't know any of this yeah so he asked me for a bathroom brick he had just left five minutes ago. So I just said something like, bro, you just took one like five minutes ago. He explodes on me on the floor. He yells,

I'm a good person. Blah, what are you trying to say about me? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, huh? Like, all I said was like, and I'm like, I'm like, yo, get my face like that. What's wrong with you?

Like, what are you doing? Yeah. Like, but he's yelling, screaming, veins popping out of his neck all. I'm like, yo, girl, sit down, man. Like, relax, dude, like, chill out. What are you doing? Like, chill, relax.

Co-worker comes next to me. I'm like, I'm like, Mike's looking at me. Mike's like, what are you going to do? Because Mike always was like, yo, you're too easy on people. So he's like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And I don't know if you remember this, but I had, remember that black dude?

And he was, he used to hang out with Ashley and that. Anyway, I had the black dude from Massachusetts, right? So he was, he's, he's, he's, He was in a gang. He was gaming. And he was sitting in my pod because I had my little crew. So Richard yells at me on the floor, right? So this was like, yo, Van, Vin, you want to see this guy after him.

He's like, yo, I'm going to see him at the smoke shot, bro. I can get him from you, da, da, da, da. Oh, my God. I was like, no, relax, relax, relax. Well, the other, the other supervisor, she's like, yeah, you got to go easy on. This is, this is the girl we're talking about before him and went on. He said, you got to go easy on him. I said, why do I need to go in?

He just yelled at him. He's lucky. she goes well you know cops are all in his house with everything and yada yada yada I'm like the cops for what they're like so then Mike says to me Donna and I'm like holy smoke and then everything like made sense like he can flip it out telling me he's a good person all this long story short they find down his body her she's dead baby's dead he sexually assaulted her that he strangled or killed her and he just tossed her back there like she was

garbage and then he went I went and listened when they did the timeline or whatever I went and listened to the first call he took after he killed her he was completely fine he was completely fine like nothing happened

and uh and obviously like you know like I said like you know there was that previous reported incident or whatever and I'm like obviously I didn't do everything not supposed to do because I'm like, because I've argued myself. I was like, well, I went and escalated it.

And then I'm like, yeah, but all you did was check a box. If that was your sister, was somebody that you love that was in your crew. Because if he would have done that with you, it would have been a completely different. Because it's you, because you, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're one of my folks. You know, and that's why when the other thing happened to my other supervisor, like, dude was gone immediately. Like, gone, gone.

I'm not doing anything. I'm not even going to give you a fair trial. if you're innocent, I'm a Christian, God will take care of you somewhere else. I'm not doing it. I'm not allowing that to happen. So I, you know, when that whole situation went down, like, everybody had all their opinions about Richard or whatever. I was just really quiet because I was just like, damn. I just remember when site director, Michael Scott, brought all of us into the conference room to let us know that Donna was missing and that the person possibly responsible was in the building as well.

Correct. which he was not supposed to do for a bunch of reasons. He literally, while this dude was under investigation, literally told everybody, by the way, this guy's under investigation. Oh, he even named Richard. No. Oh, okay. He didn't he?

I think he did. I think he did. Wow. It wouldn't surprise me. I mean, even just to say, hey, the murderer could be in the same building you're walking among you. But the thing about it was, is like, I wasn't on that campaign. Obviously, I sat adjacent to that campaign.

pain, but I knew who they were talking about. So he had to have named him. I can't just be, like, misremembering it, because I knew who it was. And our community, again, this is Maine. Okay, it's so small that you don't need to name anyone. Like, if Michael Scott, our director,

would have came up and said, a black supervisor, everybody would have known you were talking about me. You know what I'm saying? Like, we were, he might as well have said the guy's first, last name, social security number, address, whole nine yards. And, like, it was, crazy because I'm like, okay, our director's going to talk to everybody, so that's good,

because I was really, especially, the girls were terrified. The girls were, because we don't know exactly what happened yet. So all we know is some random dude took an eight-month pregnant woman and raped and killed her. So the rest of the girls are like, holy, like, if it could happen to her, I mean, she's eight-month pregnant, she's not at the height of her, you know, you guys are all in your 20s. You guys are all beautiful girls in your 20s. All the girls are staring. So I'm like watching, and everybody keeps coming out of these meetings.

They look more terrified than of all. I mean, some of those girls who was their first job. The first job is an adult. And here in May, we came like, oh, like murders don't happen here. You make that. That happens to you are. And now they're like hearing this. They got to be freaking out inside.

I was freaking out. I, in my car, under the floorboards, kept the big, like, chef knife for my block and I, like, claw hand. in my car for the longest time after that. Yeah, one of my, one of my female suits that went to one of these meetings, she, she, she, she, she wouldn't leave. I had a good six months. I had to walk them all out to their car for a good six months.

They would not. They're like, whatever, we're not going anywhere unless you're coming with us, period. End of story. So it was, it was a terrifying time. But now that I think, now that I'm hearing, like, he made it a lot worse. Like, hey, there's a freaking murder. on the loose, it might be here. It was just

our leadership, I mean, including me, our leadership completely failed these women at our site. That's why I'm including myself, because I know that that first situation, if it would have been my sister, or if it would have been just,

I would have been a lot more diligent about pursuing a resolution. But you went all the way with Buddy, and even though you went all the way and did all that you could do, it still didn't matter in the end. So, I mean, It's just to say that maybe if you had gone all the way with him, maybe he still would have gotten brought back anyway during a hiring crunch. But the thing about that is I dropped the ball with Buddy.

I dropped the ball with Buddy because I could have had him fired very easily. First points. So a couple of things. So he was accumulating points like crazy. Why don't we catch people up? I know we mentioned it on the other episodes. Let's catch people on what points are here. So points basically were...

Let's give you two seconds. So the first woman is Donna. she was murdered by Richard. About a year and a half later, a beautiful girl, Cristiana, is murdered by Buddy. So Buddy was accumulating attendance points.

So it's basically if you're late, you leave early, you're absent, you accumulate these points. At seven you get fired, he was accumulating them like crazy because he was leaving work consistently almost every single day from an hour to two hours early

because he was going home to watch Brandy's son because lo and behold, Christiana and Brandy were running a prostitution ring. So Brandy, this very entrepreneurial, charismatic girl who I hired, and then I hired her

brother, basically as a favor to her, she's running a prostitution ring. Yes, as a madam. So there's Brandy and her boyfriend, Levi, and her brother, buddy, and Brandy, am I reading this right? Brandy was the...

She was the mastermind. She was the mastermind of all of this. Mastermind with a capital F. She was running the whole shop. Yep. So she was pipping girls out from our site. Yes. Is that right?

As well, as bringing girls down from Canada. And then we had, our receptionist was on her payroll for a while. Was she? Is that true? Yeah. So the thing about the receptionist.

Yeah, she was. So there's a couple receptionists. I'm thinking it's the smaller one. Yeah. She, she was in the, not the APB, but the official document for us and I forgot what it was.

Yeah, but David. It's like 16 pages, yeah. She got named in the affidavit as co-worker or whatever. She told detectives that she quit before. I didn't read a whole lot of names. There was

Alanda from Canada. She was named and then Brandy was named and Christiana was named, but I didn't see many other names. So, Brandy actually told me, and I don't want to jump ahead too far about how I know any of this until we get there. But she...

We're getting there soon. She said she also had a woman on her payroll that was in Detroit. Which, you know, she must have some sort of entrepreneurial spirit if she is pimping out a woman who's not even in her geographic location. And they were taking trips down to Foxwood

which is a casino, probably the closest major casino to us in Connecticut. Oh, yeah. By and line. Yeah, and so they'd go down there and they work on the weekends they make crazy money and then at this point she ends up quitting what do you say work what do you like choose right right great girls down yeah because that's legal down there right no there's places in nevada there's a few counties in nevada you can do that okay but i think that's the

only place in america that i know of off the top of my right i'm sure unless nurse will uh fox flits is in connecticut it's not in los Vegas yeah so they would go to foxblitz and she would take her sex workers down there and that's how she'd make her she made she'd make she'd make so much money she basically quit yeah yeah they're making quite a bit of money so basically how this amounts to how i dropped the ball with buddy was i could have got him on his points instead what i did was i was like hey why don't you have brandy drop michael off over at work and he can sit at my desk and hang out with me so you don't have to leave michael is the kid yes he's eight years old so so you're you're saying bring this kid in completely breaks all but again

Like this is this is what I'm talking about Like You know This is That's why Michael Scott hired you Right Like when you're not a very competent manager Like the best thing to do is hire very competent

People who will work for you So you look like a good manager So I'm just That's just That's not I just want people though That's not typical That's just

Well we should also be clear here I know we explained this before But like buddy was your right hand man Right Because you had very little people to depend on, and Buddy was actually the most dependable out of those training classes. Yeah. So, yeah, he was, he could coach agents. He was actually doing really well in his metrics.

The people on the floor respected him, especially the older people respected him. Aside from this attendance issue, because he was going home because the prostitution, he was actually, like, completely like, model citizen on my campaign. I mean, there's a few people that told me that they thought he was a jerk, but a lot of people respect. him. A lot of people had good things to say about him. Yeah. So the other point, which was pointed out to me after this all went down of how, you know, I dropped the ball here is my ops manager was extremely upset that I didn't tell her when I learned of the prostitution ring. Because I jokingly said to him, I'm like, what's Brandy doing running a brothel out of your house? And he's like, well, actually, yeah. I found out about this before the murder happens. And like, I'm like, oh, you know, whatever. You know, I'm very positive here. I'm very positive here. don't have any problem with sex work, so I didn't tell anybody. Right, right. No. You didn't think it was going to lead to a nurse.

No. But why would you? Why would you get people that you work with every day in trouble with the law? Right. And like on top of that, like Brandon and Cristiana weren't working over at ACS anymore. And I didn't even know that like Levi was involved. So let's talk about Christiana. Yes.

Christiana was on a completely different project. So I was in financial services and you had about three or four mini campaigns that were in that rubric. And then you guys had the biggest one. You guys were the biggest one in the house. Yeah, we were split. Hers was retention. Mine was also a financial services, so to speak, a credit card, rewards customer service. Yeah.

And she was on the roadside assistance. Yeah. I only had one interaction with her. Her director wanted her to do something like floor support or something like that. and I had just got out of his office because I was visiting with him because I was the only person in the site that would talk to him you know, talking about. So I was visiting with the homie and he said,

look, when you leave, tell Cristiana she, you know, she's on floor support, which floor support means you're on the phone, but then you get to get off the phone and walk around and answer a question. Everybody that's done any type of phone work wants to do floor support. Yes. You want to be off the phone, you get to walk around. When I was on the phones, and the first time I did floor support,

that's when my habit of not eating lunch and taking breaks came from. Because I would never take a break or lunch because when you came back, you would lose your floor support. Once you were on, you didn't take a break for the rest of the day. You can help it.

Yeah, yeah. So I said, hey, Mark said you're good to go on the floor support thing after this call. So she looked at me and she smiled and she had an incredible smile. This is really just nice. nice girl very beautiful so she smiled at me and she waved she said thank you and then uh i was like

cool i went back and uh so this is the last time i ever spoke to her never talked to her again after that um so she christiana gets ends up missing yes so now this is a year year and a half after the that situation, she ends up missing. I didn't know who she was. I turned on the news. I see her face. I'm like, because if you saw her face, you wouldn't, you, you, you'll, you know who she is.

You just, that smile, like, that's the last thing I remember. I'm going to try to find some pictures of her so the audience can see. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I, I had no idea. I'm like, okay, now, she's, going on what is going on but i had i had no clue as to the uh what was actually happening so i mean we should probably say once we're in the aims building up to this point having cops entered the building it wasn't weird for people it wasn't weird like people joked about it

like seeing somebody in uniform walk in didn't bother air phase anyone a lot of times cops were just showing up to pick people up on their warrants a lot that was like almost a once a week thing for a little bit. We had Homeland Security show up for the Chinese restaurant next door. Yes, yes, that did happen. And they were coming in with like, I didn't see this. I was out back and I saw them running out the back, but apparently like they came in with AR-15s while people were sitting down eating, trying to arrest people. That's what I was told from a few people. So, you know, with stuff like that happens in your general vicinity, you just become numb to it. And then plus the, you know, I don't mean this disparagingly at all,

but like after Donna happened, some people were like, okay, well, this is what happens here now. And people just talk to just made jokes that, yeah, somebody else is going to get murdered here. Oh, yeah. Oh, that was a major, major, major, major thing. You can see, that's Christiana. Like I said, just incredibly beautiful girl.

Unbelievable. But she was really nice. She was extremely nice. You never heard anything bad about her. But anyway, she went missing. And at the time that the investigation really started to pick up, I actually got transferred down to Lexington, Kentucky. So when the actual investigations and stuff were going on,

I was in Kentucky doing completely different work. So I was like, I was getting stuff from Lewiston, you know, second and third hand. So I wasn't really around doing like I was with the Donna situation. So what was going on there with the investigations? So it was really, really strange. I didn't know anything was happening until Buddy just started. He started to seem kind of sad. And I'm like, you know, what's wrong?

This is after Christina died? This is after Christian died. Or when she was missing? When she was missing. So she was already deceased, but when she was missing. So he was always like the life of the party at work. He actually brought up the. Morale and the floor brought up my morale because my can't yeah my campaign was hell to work on and he's like oh they're looking for christiana he

called her stupid because he didn't like her at all and it was just kind of like strange because I'm like why would he think she's stupid because she seemed pretty nice but I'm like okay it never really kind of went past that now the investigation started really affecting his mental health and he went and checked himself into Mary's which is the hospital for you know the viewers and that was after he was getting grilled by investigators right something slip yeah he had let something slip he had said something's effective I don't know where I put her and after that he checked himself into the mental facility at St. Mary's Hospital and at that point it started getting real at work because I was trying to hide from my ops manager the fact that he was in a mental institution and not showing up

oh she didn't know she had absolutely like no idea that he was gone and then she started to kind of pick up on it and I think it was because the police were probably talking to her and she was playing some sort of like manipulative game with me to give me to say something so wait they're they're interrogating him or whatever and in one of their questions he slips out I don't know where I could yes holy smokes yes and they let him go but then he checked himself into a mental institution shortly thereafter yeah so I believe my ops manager actually knew I think they were getting some information from work

and I'm like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know what's going on and then I finally told her he is the mental institution right now did he call you and tell you he was going I don't remember if he called me or Brandy told me someone told me and then she had me try to get FMLA for him and like do it the process, which I'm sure was denied. Yeah. Yeah. So FMLA, it's the family medical evad. Yes. That

it's protections for workers that get into that type of situation so that they don't get fired. He doesn't get it obviously. And I get a call from him after he is now out of the mental institution. So I'm like, okay. How long would he stay? He was in it for about a week. About a week. And... So you're trying to come up.

number of seven days basically no call no shows basically yeah and it worked for a little while it did work for a little while they did have me terminate him but he you call me when he got out and I'm like you want to get coffee so I picked him up we went and got coffee so you did have to officially fire him yeah okay and it was so sad he like looked like just like a completely shell-shocked person. It was crazy. He was not buddy, like at least not the buddy that I knew. And we drove around, drank coffee for a while. I remember at one point we were in Wales, Maine, because I was down some sort of back road, and a cop had pulled a bunch of people over. And he just kind of went crazy in the car because there were all sorts of like blue lights. And I'm like, oh boy. So we ended up

driving back. I parked near, you know, the house they were renting, gave him a hug, kiss on the cheek, and that's the last time I saw him. I believe they arrested him the next day. Now Levi is still working at this point with us, right? Yep. So did you know, was he hired as a supervisor on that campaign, or was he an agent on a campaign previous and then transferred on? He was on.

He was an agent level with me. Yes. Did he go to the other financial campaign before you guys took him? I never bought him. No, he went straight to roadside assistance. Yeah. I never got him. Wait, so he got hired as a supervisor, direct?

Or a trainer. He got, he got turned at the entry level. Wait, Levi got turned? Oh, I'm on crap. Okay, this entire set. Okay, so you're talking about Levi. I'm not on Buddy. Wait, listen, they mean Buddy?

Okay. No, no, no. Buddy got hired in that. Got it. Got it. Okay, continue. I'm sorry. No, no, it's fine.

Buddy got hired at the age of, level and then came to me on my campaign. Okay, but Levi, was he hired directly as a trainer? Did he start on another campaign? He started on VIN's original financial campaign. Okay, was he on your team, were you as direct supervisor? I wasn't, but he was a monster salesman. Okay.

So the emphasis on our campaign was sales and he was a monster. He was killing. Obviously, he's a good salesperson. Yeah. like brandy was was the the mastermind but it's it appears to me that he has some way particularly with females and where he sells them and they they're buying so yeah you know whatever and he had a career in politics afterwards any of that are you aware of that did he try to run from mayor or something like that he is currently on the Auburn city council at large to this

state and is on all sorts of committees. I found this out because when I used to vote in Ward 5 in Auburn, he'd always be at my voting place over at Washburn School. Now, he maintains his innocence and ignorance that he had no idea what was going on. He claims that Brandy, and there's, this is not alleged, there's an article in the Sun Journal that is still accessible to this day if you search his name, that he was like on drugs and that Brandy had seduced him. and he was not in control, and he left his, like, girlfriend and child to be with him, and he was in an abusive situation. It was just very strange.

I mean, I didn't know him personally, but from my viewpoint, in my opinion, he seemed like somebody that was in control of himself, not somebody that was being used by others. That's how it looked like to me. Nor was he ever described as somebody that was easily taken advantage of by others. But that's just my viewpoint. Well, again, if you heard this man operate on the phones, he's a master manipulator. Right.

So, I'm sorry, it doesn't work for me. Now, do I believe that Brandy outsmarted him and used him? Absolutely. But that doesn't absolve Levi at all because he also knew what he was doing to those girls. He just ran into somebody that happened to be more smarter and more manipulative than he was. but for him to try to use that, to your point, he was in complete command of his senses. And he knew, obviously, how to speak to females in such a way as to get them to be malleable. They had a nice little thing going because you don't expect the pimp, the exploiter, to be another woman.

You expect the explorer to be another man. So when a man comes in as the number two, and a woman is really the exploiter, it really it creates a situation where yeah you're gonna get a lot of clientele but you can't tell me that you didn't know what's going on bro and you can't tell me that that you were not manipulating and lying and doing all types of things to get these girls in these situations and you also can't tell me you had no idea about what happened at christiana right two things he was allegedly transporting the girls so that's what i heard from buddy okay buddy said he was acting as a driver, which is a very interesting thing, because all of those cars that were in their possession, which were higher-end vehicles, there was Alexis Sedan, a Cadillac SUV, which was really nice because I'm driven in that. He was a Cadillac Escalade, correct?

I know. It was some sort of more spoiler type of, like, SUV, and he had his Volvo. She, she, look, I talked to her once, because, you know, I mess with her and stuff because I hired or whatever. And she pulled up at this cataly, it must have been $60,000, $70,000 vehicle, which in 2008 was a lot of money. Yes. So she, I'm like, yo, I'm in the wrong business.

And she goes, yeah, you are. And of course, at the time, I didn't really understand. Now I understand what she meant. I know what she meant, your wicked self. All right, yeah. No, it was, and it was a nice car. It was basically brand new because I rode in the car.

I didn't understand. How did she pull into this money, bro? Right. We found out that. But they were all registered to Levi's name. All registered in Levi's name. And you'd also mention that did he perjure himself when he was under oath? I think you said everybody perjured himself.

In what way did Levi perjure himself that you know of? I'd have to review the affidavits, but a lot of them said that they didn't have anything to do with it, or initially said that they didn't know what happens. but then under pressure from the main state police and people just hammering them gave it all up. On the prostitution ring or on the murder? On the murder. So they implicated themselves as an accessory to murder.

Well, they were. They were all an accessory to murder. Yes, but a lot of them were claiming ignorance. You're saying they made it sound like they knew. Because these are just rumors, like on the phone. There was a lot of rumors at the time, but I heard rumors that allegedly he had something to do with transporting the body. So he claims that he did not.

What he claims is that he wanted nothing to do with the transportation or disposal of Christiana's body. And Buddy had asked him to, and he was like, never mind, I'll do it myself. But he had asked, like, Levi to help. Okay, so Levi was made aware. Yes. Yes. Levi knew that her body was in the trunk. He knew completely.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Sun Journal article or the Bangor Daily News article. A witness testified Friday in a murder trial did he overheard the defendant. Suggest the body of the victim had been in the trunk of the car all day and that he needed to dispose of it. We should also be clear that all the witnesses that implicated Buddy's guilt were all allegedly involved, correct? Yes. There was no... Involved in this... In the prostitution ring and potentially...

the murder. Yeah. So that's an interesting thing to note that everybody, because a lot of people, we should probably put this out here, and this is why everybody was just an utter disbelief. A lot of people didn't believe that buddy could do it for a number of reasons.

One, they didn't think that he was that type of person. Two, the manner in which Christiana was killed does not look like something that a man of his size would have to do. It sounded like a smaller person. A smaller person or multiple small people had to do. So to refresh other people on how Cristiana was killed, she was beaten the head and held under a bathtub to drown her to finish her off.

Basically, they had taken her head, smash it off the tub. The bathtub was filled. She was placed and then somebody or somebody's sat on her and submerged her so she drowned. Now, usually, and again, like, I don't have data to back this up, and I hope all y'all in the comments section, give your thoughts on this as well. But from my experience from reading up in cases like this, when a much bigger man kills a much younger woman, it's usually strangulation. It's the, it's the three S's. So it's like strangulation, stabbing, and shooting is usually what it is. And this does not fit into that. Right.

So for those who don't. really know much about Buddy. Buddy was a veteran from war in Afghanistan. He was well over six feet tall. He was humongous. He must have been six three two fifty. Yeah. Yeah. He towered over him. And the other thing is, the other thing is, is that when you shake, when you shake a man's hand, it's like a stinted dude's do. It's a school strength test. Yeah, they would give a little squeeze. And he was mass, he was extremely stronger. Yeah. extremely strong individual.

I shook his hand, I remember that. He could pick me up with one arm. Cristiana, on the other hand, just like he was big, Christiana was very petite, very skinny.

Like 98 pounds type skinny almost. Yeah, she was really little. So the, so what you're saying, go ahead, so just the matter of death,

the kind of struggle that was there doesn't like comport to somebody, his size. There's too much of a struggle for somebody that could have easily, not just overpowered her, but could have overpowered that two or three of her at once. It doesn't make sense.

If you and I, if you and I decided we were going to take buddy down, you and I would have serious problems accomplishing their feet. Absolutely. Absolutely. So there's an extremely strong, very big guy. Yeah, and I don't

mean this of any disrespect to Christiana, but she would have been no match for him. probably to struggle. The only thing that I could say is that I have seen people when they believe that their life is on the line and do amazing piece of strength. Yeah, yeah, they do things that you would not believe. I mean, we've all heard about the mom who poke picks up the car and all the rest of it because they're kids out of there. So I understood that part of it as far as like people are doubting it. I mean, in my mind, nobody can convince me otherwise. I think that there was probably

somebody else involved but this person had the only reason I'm not coming out out saying it because I don't want to come out on the internet I'm not worried about anything legally I'm just for me my own personal character

like I don't want to come out and say this person's name and they could be innocent there's a 2% chance that's up to God but from my vantage point for me I don't know if this is where you guys are going to me

I don't I'm not certain I don't believe that he did that by himself. I don't believe that the head injuries, etc. were inflicted by him alone. I think there was somebody else because she was quitting, right?

Wasn't that the story where she was going to quit the work? Yes. She was already done with it. Let's talk about that. Yeah, so basically she had had enough of Brandy. From what I hear is, Brindy wasn't even giving her her money. Which is what, just so you guys know,

if you're considering sex work, like I have no judgment for you. I can tell you though, I've worked with a lot of folks in that industry, and I'm telling you an honest manager or a PIN who's going to give you your cuts consistently is a pipe dream. They don't operate that one. That's how they make their problems. They'll do it initially to get you in, but once you're in and you're hooked on some drug or whatever, they're not giving you your money, bro. I'm just telling you the truth. But go ahead. Yeah, so from what I understand, Brandy wasn't giving her her money. And she was essentially squatting in the downstairs apartments that they kind of, like, Brandy supposedly had this duplex.

But I don't know if she owned it. Rumors were that the actual landlord had abandoned it because it was getting foreclosed upon. So she was living downstairs and she had enough of brandy and left. So she was returning. What do you mean she had enough of brandy? Just her overall personality? Her overall personality. They had gotten into a fight down in Foxwoods at one point, or in Boston.

It was in Boston. Her and Grady? Yeah, had gotten into a physical altercation. And she wasn't getting the money on top of that. Yeah, and she wasn't getting the money. So she had basically had enough with her. So I... She got to a physical altercation?

Yeah. Supposedly Christiana bit her. So here's, to answer your question earlier, because you kind of asked, you know, what do we think about money? I think the real question is, and this is a question in a lot of people's minds, not that was he involved or was he not. It's like, did he do the murder? Or did he just disposed the body?

Or was there something in between? Did he do the murder with the help of somebody else? Was he just disclosing the body? That's the part that you aren't sure about. Here's the part that makes me really confused about this. So when this all went down, this is actually what almost got me fired. When the olives is going down and he had been arrested, I went and checked his time clock for the day.

and I swear like 99% in my head, it said that he clocked in at 8 in the morning. Now, according to the affidavits, both of them, so both of them that are readily available on the internet, Christiana went over to the house over on Highland Avenue at 7.30 in the morning. So if that were the case, there would be no way for him to murder someone, clean up the scene, hide the body, and then for Brandy and Alonda, who were there initially to come back and everything be cleaned up. It wouldn't be possible. Now, in one of the affidavits, it claims that he had punched in to work at 1130 in the morning. But that's not what your time record showed.

And ours were digital, right? Right. From what I understand was he had done a split shift that day. We were really, really under staff. So we would have people come in, work in the morning, leave for like an hour or two for lunch, and then come back and finish their shift off. And he did this a lot for me. He sometimes wouldn't even like, you know, take an extended lunch. He just like work the, you know, 8 in the morning to 8 p.m. for me because he would do that for me.

Now, one of the affidavit, the 16 pager claims that he had clocked in at 1130. And I just don't recall that because I took a screenshot of this and sent it to his lawyer. And it was like, there's no way. There's no way. And that almost got me fired. Because then he started asking for, like, this wasn't a very good lawyer. Yeah, this was not a very good lawyer. But he hired, like, a family law lawyer to defend him.

He came back and wanted me to provide video. So then I had to tell my ops manager what I did. Now, I've been in touch with this lawyer recently. I wrote to him because I wanted confirmation to see if he had records. He won't talk to me. He didn't even respond. did not even respond. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So what is, so she, so she and Christina and Brady are not getting along. She won't give her money. At some point, this is what I heard when I was down in Kentucky.

Cristiana says, I'm out. And Brandi says, okay, come get your stuff. So she goes to the apartment. And the story that I heard is that Buddy is that Brandy sent Buddy to go

kill her or convince her to stay because she was a moneymaker or whatever. So from what I heard is basically why she was at the house wasn't necessarily to get the stuff to begin with. She was borrowing the Lexus to go to... Yeah, it was borrowing the Lexus because she didn't have a car

because she was driving to a family reunion up in in Rangely. Which he didn't show up for. Which she didn't show up for. And that was the whole... whole reason she was going to the house initially. It wasn't necessarily to get her belongings. That was just kind of a byproduct of that because she'd had some stuff there still. So it was to get the car so she goes to your family.

Yeah. Jesus. But here's the other thing that should be mentioned is that the motive that they attributed to Buddy for killing Christiana didn't seem to fit because a lot of us thought, oh, he must be a part of this prostitution ring. But from what you told me, he had nothing to do with it. No, he didn't. He just kind of existed and let Brandy do her thing, but he wasn't recruiting girls.

He wasn't wrangling new patrons. He wasn't getting a cut, clearly. He wasn't getting a cut. So, like, you never saw him flash money or buy extravagant things or anything like that. Yeah, it would be very hard for me to conceive of Buddy being able to even recruit the girls. Yeah. He just didn't have that kind of gift. Like, Levi did.

Levi did, but Buddy was kind of dark word. He had. kind of a dumb charm to him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He liked him because he was goofy. The big dumb guy but kind of like a Grankowski type of character. He was like the big dumb guy with the heart of goals.

Yeah. So the prosecution was trying to run the motive of jealousy, correct? But they couldn't really justify as why he was jealous of Christiana. Right. So someone were saying that Christiana hit Michael who was Brandy's son

and that's why he did it. Another angle they had was claiming that Christiana had given out Brandy's full legal name to clients or disclosed what type of business was being conducted. Well, obviously that client knows what type of business is being conducted there. That was like another weird angle that was... One that I heard, I don't know if that was brought up in court, but what was said on the call floor is that she was going to roll to government officials or to, you know, somebody in law enforcement about the prostitution, right? especially since there was rumors

that they were servicing people high up in main state government yeah I mean yeah I mean some of the names that got listed were pretty significant I'll say this if it ever actually got out in the connections were made it would get

national news yes it would I'd say that it would get national news especially maybe international yeah yeah potentially yeah yeah yeah 100% national That's as much as I'll say about that. But yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that, my understanding was always that she was going to leave and she was a massive moneymaker. And that Brandy sent Buddy to intimidate her and that he took it too far and killed her on accident. That was, that was kind of the picture that I had. But as I said, I have other. that obviously I'm not going to say on camera, but I do believe that there was another female there that would explain how brutal that fight was.

Yeah, because it doesn't make sense how it went down. Because I'm telling you, a fight between me and Buddy would not be very, there wouldn't be a lot of fireworks. It would be over very quickly. You see what I'm saying? And I'm a grown man. Christina doesn't stand a... I cannot tell you guys how thin and just...

She was also just a soft person. And Buddy was big and hard. He was a hard, I mean, he was a warrior. I mean, he was a lot of. He had been shot in the back. He was in Afghanistan. He had a purple heart, didn't he? Yeah.

I believe so. I mean, he showed me his, like, bullet wound. Yeah, like, he's a gangster. Like, he's a real, like, he's, this is not. Yeah. So, like, that altercation in the way they described the apartment or whatever, it sounded like with some drag out thing, which, again, is possible with a person, with that disparity because if you know you're fighting for your life

I don't think buddy had any wounds on him either that's the thing you'd have he'd have hell of defensive wounds on the arms especially and you'd have a lot on the face of but when you saw him after that that happened you didn't see any difference on him he would have something I do believe he was involved but I also think that there was a female involved I just think that this this girl was so intelligent that she she was able to convince buddy to just take the entire rat himself yeah because I think the logic was look they've already got their eye

on you they're gonna go after you you're gonna lose anyway why should both of us go down plus you know if the person was related to him they can pull on those heartstrings too that's what I think happened we'll never know but all I know is that I remember where I was when the whole thing came out and I remember it's like three o'clock in the morning, I was reading about her being submerged under there like that. And I was just like, this is a person like we work with everything. Yeah. I don't, you know, I don't understand that.

But if Randy thought she was going away for a long time, like, I definitely... Well, here's the question I have for you, Yergy, is up until that point, what was the relationship between brain and body that you know of? It was fine. So here's the really interesting thing. about all of that. So up until I started doing research for us recording the episode, there were things I didn't know because I hadn't read the 16-page affidavit. Yeah.

You read it recently. I read it recently. I had found the smaller one online and I thought that was all of the information. So, you know, buddy gets arrested. I'm going to visit him in county jail every week. I went to see him. I went to see him every week. I put money on his books.

He would call me. it was very expensive, very expensive. And for the first several visits, it was me, and it was that receptionist, and it was Brandy. We would drive down in the Cadillac SUV together, down to the jail in Cumberland County. Brandy wasn't allowed in, so it would always be me and the receptionist going to visit him.

Why doesn't Brandy allowed in? Because she was part of the investigation. Well, what I didn't know, and this was the interesting part, is Brandy's one who rolled on him. And had already rolled on him at that point, but you didn't know that. No, she was playing it off to us like she didn't know what happened. She was going to talk to the lawyer. We'll try to get some answers. All of us thought that someone else had, you know, said something or they had found something.

No, it was completely 100% hurt, and she was playing it off like she had no idea and she was going to help him out. But really, she wasn't allowed to go in there because she's the one who rolled. It wasn't the only one to roll on him either. Right. I believe, obviously, probably Levi was part of it. But in the affidavit, she's the one who made the appointment to go talk with, like, the Lewiston police detectives. Yeah, it's all in there. Yeah.

She completely, completely sent that dude up the drive. Yeah. And I don't feel sorry for him for obvious reasons, but at the same time, it's like, that's your, that's your, that's your, brother. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I'm in the affidavit. She was in the car when they took her up, right?

So, so after she's dead, she was in the dude, she was in a dude's trunk for like a day. Because this thing right here, I'm looking at this thing right here and it's saying, Levi's claiming that he was in

their room and that he heard Brandy and Buddy talking in the other room. Right. he's at 36 Highland Avenue when he says she's been in there all day I need to get it done Yeah, so basically what had happened was supposedly this happened around 730 8 o'clock in the morning But he worked with me all day and then They went to pick him up at 8 o'clock at night because they were running up to press stiles to go get some of his belongings Which I thought was a really really strange trip like why are you leaving at 8 at night to go do that? It's a five-hour drive

well apparently they went home and before they had even left buddy disposed for body down in lisbon you're a place called left-hand club there's some trails off near there it's strange that they didn't you would think going to prescile that was where they would have disposed of the body it's a more remote location it's further from the area the fact that it was disposed of in elizabeth seems so last minute so ill thought out so sloppy and i just kind of wonder why there evolved Well, they wouldn't have found her. Well, he was part of disposing her body. He transported her body.

Yes. And assisted in disposing of her body. And here's how we know that for sure, that he wasn't set up on that, because at sentencing, when he was found guilty, he immediately motioned to give up the body for a reduced sentence. Yep. And they would not. So we know that's 100%. Yeah, they convicted him on basically a thin motive in no body.

but when they read it was guilty he immediately gave up the location of the body and if he hadn't done that she probably never would have been yeah it was a couple months later so he he got the guilty verdict i believe it was in like october it was around christmas time we'll call it when they finally found her is that it's like how long after when he gave up the location was it immediate or did he It was immediate after they found her. They went and found her immediately. And then he was sentenced, like six months later. Yeah, she was in Lisbon.

Time Sam, how did they convict him without a body? I thought it's very difficult. Because they had several people who perjured themselves testified to put him away in return for immunity. Like all of them were given immunity. Levi, Brandi. Brandi, Alonda. They were all given immunity.

on the prostitution charges and on accessory murder. Yeah. Yeah. Because technically, technically because the fact that the prostitution business was happening, because you're doing, I believe, I don't know if it's considered a felony, but when you're, you know. It is felonious. It is felonious.

So when a felony is committed and then a murder happens, everyone now becomes a murderer. Yeah. So since this is off, we're off camera right now, technically. Tell me the timestamp. It's all at 130. look for you at one third my assumption is that because the prostitution ring was servicing

high profile clients that they didn't want that to get out so they figured if hey we'll just all you all rule on this person and you all can go away and you won't get charged in the prostitution ring because if they're charged on the prostitution ring then the name's going to have the excuse

I always knew because I would see like because I came back to me and after and I saw Levi at Walmart and I was just like go. I wonder. The thing that gets me about it, he just walks around, like, everything's cool.

Like, he didn't, like, I don't think, I mean, personally, what I think happened is that he, her and Brady got in some altercation

and some fight. Yeah. And Brindy slender head against the thing or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I think Brandy did it

and buddy cleaned it out. I'm damn certain that it was her. Yeah. The drowning thing, I'm not sure about, but I'm pretty certain it was her. And he,

she is smart and manipulative. enough. Because did you see the affidavit where he said, you know, I'm the soldier, they're not gonna,

he basically said because he served time, you know, in Iraq, Afghanistan said that. Nothing's going to happen to them. I'm like, that sounds like something

his sister would tell you. Mm-hmm. You're silly ass to go and caught the plea. Yeah. But he's being a, because they're twins. That's the other we should probably mention that.

They're twins. So I'm certain that she did that shit, but then they got such a bond that she was able to just completely. Yeah. And got. got him and confessed it because

I do think he participated in it so the logic would be hey you're going down why should both of us go down I mean I got a kid you've been watching little Michael you got to leave a little Michael without mom like I'm certain that that's what I don't know he's 55 years without possibility of parole

I don't know about that I mean in those situations man they just want ahead they just give us a head so we can say here here you go five years, I don't think he's getting parole. They're not trying to find it. I mean, especially around here since murders don't happen in Maine that often, what they want to do is, okay, let's get the guy. We'll villainize him, and then we'll put him behind bars.

You're all safe. This doesn't happen here, because when it happens, we take care of it quickly. Like, they just want open and shut cases. So you all feel safe. So when you found out that she was dead, where did you think that she was dead? I didn't think she was dead. Buddy had told me that she had possibly taken off out West to do porn. And that wasn't the first time that had been mentioned about her either.

It wasn't just Buddy saying that either. I had heard people say, who knew her, but that's what they thought that she did. That she wasn't missing. She just went to L.A. or something to do porn. Because apparently she had told people before that she wanted to break into the porn business. Right. So a certain supervisor who used to have.

fun parties at Denny's gave me that same information as well. The big dude? The big dude with the hat. With the Viking? Yeah. Wow. That she had told him the same thing. Okay.

So what you guys heard was she's not really missing. She just left and obviously she's not going to tell her family. I'm going to my lady. She'd be porn. So that's what. So when did she? you, so when you found out she was dead, did that make you question buddy or? So no, I immediately thought it was brandy. I'm like, there's no way, there's no way. And that

made me extremely unpopular at work. Yes. I remember that entire situation. And I remember at the time, my mindset was, it was buddy. This is a reiteration of what happened last year with Richard and all the rest of it. So I was furious at Buddy. But in reality, I was a matter anybody about myself for obvious reasons. But I was really, really angry about that. People would come to be like, you know, Jess is, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm not talking. I don't even hear about it like that. I was just so angry at buddy that.

And the other thing, too, was I wasn't working there anymore. So I had that he signed it in Lexington, and then I came back and then I left again. I mean, I was all over the place. So I was like in and out, but I do remember that segment when you were, you were almost like advocating for him a little bit. Yeah. Like I said, I was putting money on his books. I was going to visit him.

I was sending magazines for him to read. I was... Did he ever say, I didn't do this? Yeah, he maintains his innocence. 100%. Still to this day, makes it. But he won't say who, and he doesn't have an opinion on who he thinks did it? Well, he can't talk about it because he's currently appealing it, correct?

Right. Yeah. Or tried to see the trial. When in the initial trial, he tried to, or his lawyer, who's a very flimsy lawyer, tried to then present Brandy as an alternate suspect. It was too little too late. They already had cut the deals with her, and they're like, you know, she's no murderer, even though she's a pathological liar.

That girl was a sociopath. Yeah, that was almost a direct quote. She is a sociopath, that girl. Yeah. She has zero conscience whatsoever, but she's very good at crafting all of these, very elaborate, it like half the stuff she told, I found out later, half the stuff she told me in an interview was all a lot.

Wow. But it was like, of course, everybody lies in interviews, but they were like, very intricate lies. But so I was just like, wow, man. Like, she's, it's really interesting because I had one view of this entire situation until

this discussion. So when you found out that she was actually really, truly dead, your instinct was I was still protecting him. somebody else now how do you feel about that now in retrospect so I have a really hard time with it because

once he actually gave up the location of her body then I felt a completely different way I felt completely you know lied to basically because like why would you know the location of her body why didn't you do it sooner

why don't you speak up and you stood up for him in the face of you know basically abuse I mean not just were there rumors that you and him had a thing going on on the call for, but even the, what, the DEA, went after you and tried to press, oh yeah, he's seen other girls.

Like, he's not just seeing you. So there was, like, a rumor that we were seeing each other. We totally were not seeing each other. At that one? At all. So, basically, I was just in his corner because I thought a serious, like, injustice was happening. And, like, I tried to rally, like, my whole team around the fact that he was locked up for no reason,

which, in hindsight, is a terrible thing to do. should have never, ever involved people in that whatsoever. Was this before or after he... This was when he was initially arrested. He was off the bond, okay. Yeah. So, like, after the fact, I felt completely lied to. I feel like made a fool of.

I realized I pissed a lot of people off. Like, people who were close to me were, like, completely angry with me. Yeah. And I pushed a lot of people away. But how much of that would you really have done differently? if you, if I started with the, so you and I work together, I hear some craziness about you, you're being accused of where.

Yeah. I come to you and I'm like, Jess, we had our awards, level with me, you know, I'll buy you a pizza, whatever we used to do, you know, back in the day, I used to send somebody to, was it, Elhawk? We'd send people to Elkhote and get pizzas. I'd say, all right, Jess, let's have a pizza and tell me,

like, did you really kill this girl or what? Mm-hmm. If you'd have told me, nope, I didn't do it, I would ride for you, like, even if you knew, I would ride for you to the end of it. Because I'd just be like, yo, this is my friend. I've worked with her. She's never shown any of it.

Now, if you showed, like, there's a young lady that I mentioned, okay, earlier that I worked with. Now, if somebody came out with her where she murdered somebody, I wouldn't defend her. I love her, but I believe she's capable of that. You know what I'm saying? But you, I would be, I would be, I would be, I would be going after everybody.

The DA would be calling you. I'd be calling them. So like, I understand why you would do that. My question is, do you believe he's involved at all? Let me ask this question. Do you believe that he could have prevented her from dying? Yes.

Okay. So from that vantage point, I could see how you would regret defending him. but not preventing someone from dying and being a murderer, not the same thing. So it's like really, really hard because if we go back to the, you know, should have I reported the prostitution ring? Should have I like not babysat Michael at my desk? He would have no longer been an ACS anymore.

And a lot of the things that, you know, went on. You still could have happened. I mean, it actually still could have happened because no one was working there. They all were. They all would have happened. It could have even accelerated the process. It all would have happened. You probably elongated.

her life actually. The fact that he had a place to, because another thing is when people don't have work and don't have people that are accountable, it's actually easier for them to do bad stuff because there's nobody to disappoint. So, and a lot less to lose.

Yeah, yeah. Because even when you have a job, even a job you don't need, you still don't want to get fired. Right. So to me, your involvement probably elongated, you know, her life gave her a shot.

I understand offending the person. And I don't think that I'm glad that we had got to have this conversation because my vantage point of the whole situation was this dude was a murderer.

It was an opening check case and Jess has some weird fascination with murderers. Now she's one of these people that's that's, uh, so that was like the narrative. I'm very glad that we had this conversation because that's not what's happening.

Right. That was, this is, you were with a person and you love the people that you work with you just do you just you love or you hate him but you do you do love the people that you work with and so you're trying to be loyal and and help somebody who's in a lot of legal trouble and the guy's entire character it's you against the world like I completely understand it now I'm glad that we had this conversation just for that because I was really I was really hurt by the way that you were because it made you feel like

Because when the other situation happened with Donna, there was a particular person who, in my mind, was an enabler of this person. Even after it came out that he was, like, that did not change her perspective. And she didn't look at all heartbroken over the death of this person. So when you were relating to buddy that way, I was like, I was like, oh, this is another, you know, person. So now I'm like, oh, no, this is completely different. If I was in that situation, I would have done exactly what you did probably more. I went to the media. Yeah.

Like, that's what I were done. We were going to get fired on the spot. There's media like wait now in the parking line. Yeah. And we were told like if you even say one word to them, you're fired at us. So I sort of did. When they had crisis service come in to talk to us, I'm like, the management won't let us talk to the media. They won't listen to us and buddies locked up.

We just want to help him. That's basically, you know, what happened with all of it. it was just like crazy like the district attorney and the like lead investigator from the main state police kept trying to like get me to roll on him and he's like you know there's there's other girls he has all these girlfriends i'm like i don't care i'm not his girlfriend it's not like that they're trying to get you jealous so that you would you would you would you would you would uh add on to their narrative so they basically lied to you made up the story thinking that it would make you jealous that way you'd spill what they'd know no sure there were girls talking to them

I don't care. But. But the local police do that here. We had a friend who was rehabilitating her life, made some mistakes, whatever. But she'd rehab her life. She got her job at Duncan. Across the street from her, she's just horrible luck. She ended up with this neighbor who was schizophrenic.

This woman was paranoid. She believed that she heard some voice that our friend, had taken her stuff. So she calls a cops on our friend. Our friend works at Dunkin' Donuts. Police show up to Dunkin' Donuts. Yell at this girl, accuse her. She's like, I don't know what you're talking about.

And the cop says, I'm going to be back here in 24 hours. And if you don't have all the stuff returned, I'm going to arrest you. So she calls me up saying, I'm going to get arrested, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what? Now, I know that that's against the law with that cop there, but she doesn't know anything. So I go to the police station.

So I rolled up to the police station. And I said, I went to the front, I was like, yo, I'll need to talk to your man. I need to talk to Officer Pork Shop, whatever his name is. And he's like, oh, he's off shift. He's like, what's this about? So I said, well, you know, I gave a brief explanation. And I said, I need to talk to him because I need to know who I need to mention. So the guy takes me to the back room and he basically says, yeah, that's my partner.

We do that a lot. I know we shouldn't do that. Yada, yeah, yeah. He basically said, just look the other way to my friend. And I basically, I said, well, go out there and tell Sabrina that she's good because this dude just terrified her on her first day of work. I'm like, you're lucky that I'm going to let this go, bro. But if it was a different circumstance, I would get at you. My point is, like, law enforcement in this particular state is not so much concerned about getting to the facts as much as it is they're concerned about being able to say, to your point,

this doesn't happen in Maine. People don't get assaulted and murdered in Maine. That doesn't happen. So when it does happen, they want that head, man. You want a head and all of us, and myself included, whether the person's guilty or innocent, if you can craft a very good story,

go for it, man. So it's really interesting because it's so crazy, I was at ground zero and there was so much information I didn't know. and we were right in the middle of it and you didn't know the background on

Buddy that I had and vice versa and it's like how people believe they can litigate things from thousands of ways mind boggling to me. Another bit of information as well I don't know how true this is

because it was information coming from Buddy but I know the initial detective that was on the case. He used to be actually my landlord when I was a teenager when my mom and I like rented this apartment together. And rumor had it.

He had met his wife due to the fact that she was a sex worker, and he had initially arrested her. And he initially was one of the investigators on this case, and apparently was really nice to buddy in them. And buddy claims he was taken off the case because of how soft he was being on it. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it.

Yeah. I don't got it. So, look, I'm not saying Buddy's innocent or guilty. I'm not saying Brandy's innocent. or guilty, what I'm saying is that these two stories are they highlight some really

interesting things about our society and our culture. One, just pure unadulterated capitalism at times leads to things like, well, let's look the other way at this person. You know what I'm saying? Right. Let's look at it. Because a lot of this came out of a desire to satisfy a very demanding

client in this in this milieu that we're all in and I remember when you're a manager I mean they take you back there and they they explain to you how much money it is and and what you've done for families and and if you get this type of client we give you this big of a contract that means that you know 5,000 people are going to be possibly affected by this contract so so they know how to talk to you once they isolate what your value is like money isn't necessarily a value for me but they knew it was soft with you know people's families and such so that's how they communicated it but at the end of the day we were doing things and we did things as a company to increase our bottom line but compromise who we were as

as people and as a company as as what we were supposed to do I mean I know personally when I was managing my campaign they had me interviewing people not even for my campaign all day long I just be taking them I remember I ran out of rooms Sometimes I take them to the smoke area to interview them. It was just insane. And I didn't care who I was hiring. And a point was if they could talk, just hire them. Yeah, but see, that's not true.

You did care. I did care. Because you had to marriage those people. The problem is, is that we, I'm talking about the next level of management, made life such a living hell that it got to the point where we had good supervisors who were like, okay, I don't care anymore. Because you did care. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been a top tier supervisor.

The campaign that you were on was our premier campaign. It wasn't, I mean, they shot people down, they sat people down a bunch of times. So I'm not just saying because, you know, Jets and I lower. I mean, she was just one of the best, but it gets the point where we can make your life so miserable that you just say, okay, all right, yeah, yeah, whatever you are. And in my campaign, there was such high turnover that I couldn't keep the seats filled. I'd bleed now. Well, that's the other thing I wanted to mention.

Like, in your defense, I'm sure some people are watching thinking, oh, well, she was just friends with the buddy. That's what this was about. Well, no, not only that. He was your ally. Yeah. The one person you could depend on out of the sea of people who weren't dependable. People who were on drugs, people who were drunk on the floor,

people who were selling on the floor. I know because I saw it. People who weren't doing their job. And working for a campaign that was doing pretty immoral, questionably illegal stuff. High stress. And so you have that one person

that you can depend on out of all of that. That is just gold. Yeah. That is gold. Even on my campaign, having somebody that I can trust and depend on throughout the high turnover rate

and throughout just all the sketchy stuff that was going on, having something could depend on and just meant everything like that. People don't realize it's a brutal, brutal industry. It is. It was like me and Buddy and Larry.

That was like, my people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember. Yeah, but it is a brutal, brutal environment.

Here's the thing, is that it's kind of a similar effect to the internet comment section where people are kind of anonymous, so the things that they would never say to your face, they can say online. Yeah. Well, you're in an entire industry

where people are talking to you over the phone. So they believe they can talk to you however they want to talk to you. So you're an agent that's, ingesting eight hours of that, you're supposed to manage this person, and the person is underskilled, underpaid, right? It makes life a living hell for a supervisor.

So if you can find one person, that's why anytime I used to get new supervisors up, I'd always say you've got to find one true believer. Find one person that believes in you that is going to be an ally, stand them up and make sure that they get some, press, right, so that people know, like, okay, you've got Alice, you're not by yourself. I say it all the time, because I knew, like, emotionally, even at the mental health level,

you need that at work. Not even an official position, but you mentally need to be able to say, I can go over there, I'm going to hang out with Drew, and he's going to talk me off the ledge, I'm going to be okay. Like, you have to have that. So for you to have that, that means that Buddy has done a lot for you emotionally, for your own mental health that people who are outside of the circle can't really understand. Yeah, it was, it was absolutely insane. Like the level of coaching that we were required to do, like surpass anything I had to do

and monitoring, and everyone was so angry all of the time. And that, your metrics were insane. That campaign was the weakest link of the entire building because what was, we had two things going on right now, my campaign and your campaign, both campaigns had to succeed. if one campaign failed, we lost in both. Our campaign was making a lot of money. Yours was not. So because your campaign was failing

or getting so close to failing, you had to succeed or else you'd cost the company just so much money. Potentially even close the site. That's what they were talking about or threatening with, like if you were to lose it. So that's how important somebody like that was

because you had that much riding on you. Because if we lost, the campaign, your job was gone. Yeah. And we did. I did lose the campaign. You're putting kids in their 20s. I was in my 20s.

I think it was 23 years old. I got brought it to a meeting here like, look, the client's going to pull away. If we don't turn this around by this time, it's gone. Yeah. And I'm thinking about all my teammates. I'm thinking about, I don't really care about corporate. I don't care if corporate makes money or not.

Who cares? None of us cares about them. But I'm, you know, Donna. know? Mm-hmm. With a live at the time. She's a pregnant woman with a kid, and I know she's the majoraker in her family. I got this guy over here.

I got this kid over here. Zeph, he's 20 years old. He's just starting out in life. He needs a job. So you're 20 years old, carrying the lives and careers, and Jess had to do it. I had to do it. Like, it's incredible pressure. People have no idea.

The economy was terrible. Like so many of my age. agents were a paycheck from the street and I knew it and we were hiring to fire. Yeah. And our ops manager didn't care about that. And so I had to go back to save them. Explain what hire to fires. So we would have new clients come on because we serviced a lot of different financial institutions.

So if there was a certain promotion going on in that period of time, we needed to hire a lot more people to handle that call volume. However, we knew that call volume was not going to last forever. And so at that point, when the call volume is not there, we have people filling seats that aren't making us money. So they were hired purely to fire. And yeah, maybe we'd keep some of the very best, but they were hired purely to get rid of later. But they would never tell them that. So you're not telling a person, hey, do you want the six-week job? And that's what they should have done.

That's what they should have done. You want the temporary position or get tense. But the economy was so bad at the time and people were clamoring for jobs. The other thing is with temp agencies, you have to give them a cut. So when I was where, I worked as a temp initially. And a regular person cost Liberg's $9 an hour. I cost them $15 an hour because they had to pay me and the company had to get some profit. So I got cut immediately when the cuts happened regardless.

So to your point, we hired a lot, we hired a lot of these people for a six week sort of higher fire trial. And then it's like when you're a manager and you're on these calls and you're like, why's your P&L? It's like, well, my, you know, your staffing is off. And they go, well, then fire them. And they just talk about it like it's just, oh, just change that plant. And it's like, then you go, well, they didn't do anything like fireball. And then the answer is, find something. Like, I literally, that's literally what they told me.

I also mention the listeners at home because they might be in a state that's not at-will employment. Here in Maine, we're at-will state. so you can be fired for whatever reason. They would have me sit and listen to people's calls just to find something fireable. You'll find something. And, you know, there's a difference. Like, you have somebody that, like, is a horrible person and you know they're about to go off on a customer. You will deploy somebody and say, find that so we can get rid of this guy before he takes that out on a customer and a client.

That's not the same thing as what we're talking about. We're talking about is companies purposely hiring people to absorb a six-week bump. and then when you don't need them anymore, you get rid of them. All that to say, this is a situation that 20-year-old kids are being thrown in. This is my first major job. How do I balance this? Like, I was an acting supervisor and I was in charge of 21 people. It's like, what do you, knowing like all these people on the line, you get to know them,

you know they have families, you know they have kids, you know they're barely making it. And that weighs on you. You know that you have responsibility in there. And honestly, you do have responsibility there. So the other thing, I was on another side of that. So when I first became supervised, there's 23-year-old me, I'm then told that I have to, with someone from corporate, sell our program to a major world retailer.

Yeah. So there's 23-year-old me brand new to this. Sell our site to these people. I'm like completely like shaking at this point. It's all on you. All on me. I did it. I sold it.

Then we had to ramp up two sites, and that's when you came to us. Yeah, and I had to go immediately. Remember that? I had to go to North Carolina because they underestimated what the line was going to be. It went for two supervisors, me and one who was there before he left, that I, 23-year-old supervisor, have to hire supervisors. That's right. When I jumped on, you were interviewing supervisors.

Yes. Because our crew, we had nobody. It was just you. It was just me. And our SPU manager that was in the Philippines. Shout out to the homie. Yeah. The point is, like, that's the environment that we were in.

And we're all, like, extremely young, trying to navigate all this stuff. And, you know, we had Michael Scott. Shout out to the homie. Yeah. I mean, he was. And then after him, there really wasn't, they filled it with this guy named Josh.

Josh. So let's back up and, you know, give Michael Scott, you know, this moment to shine a little bit. because why he was fired, I'm told, was because he was fighting activity-based compensation to be implemented. Is that correct? No. That's not correct. Okay.

Yeah, true. Okay. He was ossified drunk on a call that we were doing for PML. And that was a third time. Okay. I also heard a rumor he had a pension for an agent on your campaign. He did. Yes.

He did have a pension for it. But it was mutual. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah, there were some defenders of him. Like, yeah, he tried to not have ABC, so activity-based compensation. There was a lot of people there who were there for a long time making decent money,

and then they reduced all of us down to minimum wage. But you could make a little bit more depending on how your metrics were. It was the most probably immoral thing I've ever been, well, the second most. The first most immoral thing I've ever been apart of was when the agents figured out how to beat ABC, activity-based compensation, they then changed the structure because they were making too much money. So initially, it was sold as, hey, your $13 an hour has been holding you back. How about we put you a minimum wage and give you an unlimited earning potential? That was the argument.

That was the argument. Of course, our agents, yeah, for the most part, we hired people if they had a pulse. but the agents that stayed in were you couldn't put anything by them. So you couldn't, like, sell them this nonsense. So I'd be there, like, giving it the old college try. To survive that environment, you're not a dummy. You know what the score. So on our original campaign, we should be clear that we had some people who probably should have been retirees.

100%. So some that could have died on the floor because they were so old, who had worked piecemeal jobs before. Folk did. Folk have died on the floor. Yeah. True story. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and in the baits mill. Oh, okay, okay.

Yeah, two people, actually. Oh, my goodness. We'll have to talk about that offline. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, people literally dropped that. Yeah. So go ahead. So these people knew what piecemeal work was.

They weren't about the bullshit that was trying to be sold to them. And, I mean, they were making pretty good money because they had been there forever. But they had been there for years. Right. Like, I'm talking about. like 15 years. Yeah, they were like in the telemark days. Open. Yeah. So yeah, they had a sweet schedule and they had a sweet pay scale, but they earned it. Right. And it was gone. We took it all away from it. Like they were even making money that was like good for today's money. Yes.

The reason why that's relevant, guys, is that if we were paying Christina, maybe a livable wage, maybe she makes different decisions as to extracurricular work. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. All of this stuff is connected. And at the time, she was working for the campaign that people argued paid the best correct out of the entire and they were the most happy at we should talk about actually when I started on your campaign we you were going to qualify for ABC but only after 90 days and so what do they do they put you making minimum wage on the highest call volumes so that way you eat that call volumes so that way other people

don't make ABC yeah because all the people who are guaranteed to make minimum you should absorb that call on you. Yeah. It was just, you could tell that they sat back and planned that. And we were always the first people to hear about it because the managers would always hide in the,

in the offices. We had to be on the floor telling everybody that. So I remember when we changed ABC on our project because my folks, the people on my team, we were famous for having horrible attendance, and amazing numbers. Okay. So ABC at the time was just about the numbers.

It didn't factor in absenteeism. So our folks were making a killing. They were, especially when that new campaign had come in. Oh, yeah. A new card that we had to sell. We were the, you know, I'm pretty good at sales. We were killing. Then I get a call.

I get brought into an office. We're changing it, and you have to roll it out and tell people this is a good thing. And I'm like, two of my people quit immediately. Yeah. Two of my top mind, they said, you told us they were yelling at me. I had a supervisor in my office saying, why are you allowing these people to yell at you?

I'm like, because we're screwing these people. Yeah. I deserve it. They're like, you didn't make the policy. I'm like, I'm the touch point for it. They're going to yell at somebody. It's better they yell at me than the agents, because frankly, we deserve it.

I'm like, listen, you and I are salary. If they came at us with that bullshit, we'd be gone. Right. I wouldn't be gone. They'd be a lawsuit. I'd tell you what. be gone after the lawsuit. But you see what I'm saying? Right.

My point is all these factors, like, I mean, even factors into Donna. Donna, the reason she left with Richard was because Richard was going to give her a deal on a car. And that's how he lowered in. If Donna is in a center that's paying her a livable wage, maybe she already has a car. And she doesn't necessarily need a deal. Maybe she gets herself a nice Cadillac SUV. You know what I'm saying? Like, if she wasn't in that financially vulnerable situation, then we

might have been able to help her. It's the same thing with Cristiana. You know what I'm saying? So... The policies that our company had on the front door as well as a back door all contributed to putting these girls in a vulnerable situation that

they shouldn't have been in, that they wouldn't have been in if they would have been compensated. In my mind, at a fair rate. So that's why I'm a big you know when we talked about the fight for 15 you know I'm a big fight for 1850 guy. Right. We need to give people especially

and I'm obviously biased towards this because I grew up with a single mother and so there were times when we were at home the shelter. From my advantage point we you know single women in the workplace there needs to be a lot more protections

financially as well as otherwise for single women in the workplace. because it's a gap and I'm looking I'm like they're massively vulnerable and then when you put it in the social the socioeconomic context of Lewiston which is the downtown area that full of people nobody cares about where the dirty Lou it's just it's of course I'm surprised more of it didn't happen you know what I'm saying right so for me it's like what are the lessons learned you know what I mean so in that situation it's like one is we've got financial vulnerability for, and then particularly women, you know, in our society. I understand it's 2021, but at the end of the day, we're not hearing a lot of stories about dudes getting kidnapped

from work and then turning up dead. We're not hearing that. And then women are the kill. Like, that's not what's happening. You see what I'm saying? So for me, it's like, we need to get really, really serious about, you know, the conversation around wages. Because I think wages, workplace wages have a lot to do with this. I really

think if we had an 1850 an hour, you know, which I know, sounds a little bit, you know, idealistic or whatever. But I think Christiana's still here. I think Donna's still here. I really do. Well, 10 years ago, we were making $9 an hour that we could actually afford rent and groceries. We could live off that. It was rough, but we still did it. Yeah. Now that $9 an hour, that's not going to do anything. Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. So, and, you know, to rest of the piece to those two. Absolutely. And I'm just on a personal level. I'm glad that we had this conversation. Me too, because...

Because that cleared a lot of stuff. It did. I don't want to be misunderstood on it. I'm like not here. A lot of people seem to think that I hated Christiana. I had, you know, after I left ACS, I was over at the bank working and someone approached me and said that they hated me because they knew that I was stating that I was happy that Christiana was dead, which never, I would never say anything like that. I wasn't happy she was dead. So just the crazy story is that, you know, occurred because I wanted to champion someone that I thought was innocent. Yeah, in reality, in reality, you were, you know, my, my scale of morality just has to do with what is, how much love did the person have when they were committing that action?

That simplifies morality for me. I mean, your reaction to that entire situation was the most moral reaction out of all of us. because if it's true that Buddy didn't do it or that he wasn't the sole participator, that means that Christianity didn't get complete justice. Right. And she didn't, no matter how we look at it. The moral thing to do would be

to look under every stone possible to ensure that we could get some semblance of justice for this girl on this side. So I just want to like publicly apologize to you. Now, you know how I get down? I didn't really take part in a lot of the discussion, but the fact that we worked together for so long, and I never actually went to you and actually engaged the discussion and say, hey, Jess, like, this isn't

you? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's like, I was like, oh, really? Because you were, you know, I didn't, I was like, you were always like a compassionate person. Like, we had our disagreements, but I didn't really, you know, I didn't think that you had any hostility towards this, yeah. But anyway, yeah, I'm glad that I can publicly say, like, dude, I'm sorry, and I can tell you this, a lot of the people that were upset by, you know, If they knew the real reason would react the exact same way that I did. If they took the time actually not listening to the rumor mill and actually took the time to measure you by the character that you showed us over years,

then I fully believe they would have reacted the same way. So when I take that back and apologize, that's a lot of people. You see what I'm saying. Yeah. Well, thank you. So, and I'm glad that you, that you did that. I'm very curious to see because I understand that the whole situation isn't over. So, tough situation, man.

But I got to say, this is horrible. It makes me a terrible person. No. But I'm very glad that you made it out of there, man. Me too. I'm glad you did this well. I'm glad we all did. I'm glad you made it out there, and I'm glad you, I'm glad you're together.

You guys are doing good stuff. I'm very happy because I think of it. about that place a lot. I think about that place a lot and I think about those folks and there's people, there's people that work there that I love for the rest of my life. You know what I mean? Yeah. But the environment was just so freaking toxic, bro.

It was such a terrible environment. It's just so bad. So I'm sure there's other things I should apologize to you both for. Being a manager in that place, holy moly, man. It was terrible. It was hard, like especially to be a good, manager, you know what I mean? A lot of people cracked, a lot of people were selfish, but to be that good person, it was hard because the person above you didn't want you to be that good person,

because I don't make money. Yeah. This probably isn't something we can have to go a whole lot into, but I mean, after they found out Christiana was murdered, the response on the floor, it wasn't like when Donna was murdered. Yeah. A lot of people thought it was hilarious. It was so strange.

Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, of course, of course, another dead one. This is just what happens here. It's also, like, everybody just thought it was hilarious. Yeah. And, I mean, already at this point, I mean, there were people who were selling drugs on the floor. It took a while to get them out. You know, there was people who got into fights. Like, there's just so much stuff.

There's people having affairs, like, between the supervisor and agent level. Just everything was so mishandled and corrupted. Everybody knew it. That when they found out Christianity, died, they just thought that was the icing on the cake. And like the jokes that were being made were gross. Yes, they were. Like, given her chosen profession, and that she had died, and that she was transported

in a trunk. We should also mention that at that period of time, people were a lot more negative, if you, sex work a lot more negatively than they do nowadays. And including the Sun Journal, our own local media made it a point when they talked about Christiana in the local media they framed her as a prostitute they may even use the word hooker I think yeah

yeah every single every single article about her while she was missing that's a first thing before they even mentioned her freaking name that's what they would talk about and again

again I don't want to frame this as oh they mentioned that she was a sex worker blah blah blah look if you're a sex worker like I have no judgment for you all I say is stay safe holy shit stay safe but what I will say is there is a societal

stigma around being a sex worker and they knew that and they ran with it and so Jana was not she was a single mom who was pregnant but she was going to be married and that's how we want women to behave so her

death is a different kind of quality death than Christiana's death that's a process who, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. If you read the articles between both of them, the difference is just staggering in the way in which they frame both of them. There are so many articles about Donna

that don't even mention that she worked at a call center. They don't mention, they don't say, you know, application process or daughter parent. They didn't say that. They talked about her, they talked about being her mom, blah, blah, blah. But with Christiana, immediately her profession went into play. Yeah, absolutely. And so that really, like, it turned.

The whole, actually, the whole, my entire interaction with that organization really turned me off to capitalism, actually. It's one of the things. I don't know, maybe you're going to believe that. People get too political, but, like, this whole thing where, like, people, we use people to make money instead of using money to make people, right? Like, and just this whole thing where, I remember walking on the floor, like, everybody here is just a dollar sign. I just imagine all these dollar signs and like the only reason they're important is because they're a dollar sign the only reason I'm important is because I'm a dollar sign is like I understood that

and at the same time like I don't need my place of business to like embrace me as like a you know whatever but at least at minimum let's try to treat each other like human beings right and that that comes out in how much we pay people it comes out in how long it takes to get a vacation it comes out in paternity leave, maternity leave, it has a lot of implications, you know, because all these things conspire together to kill these two women, in my opinion. And at that level, until we do something about that, then we hold some level of culpability. But we've got to be different. We've got to change, and we've got to treat everybody with respect. If you're in one of those companies, start a YouTube channel.

Get the hell out. Yeah. want to be glib like a lot of you guys are grinding you guys are struggling so trust me we know it and it's killed some of you we know that too so leave please leave one last thing that I wanted to ask you I think we can both agree that stricter background checks less lazy background checks would have saved on a parody yeah would they have saved Christiana Fesmeyer I think it would have do you well buddy actually was

on probation because he had stopped an ex-girlfriend's but that's not a felony but it would have shown up so if we were taking what happened to Donna seriously and that came up at a background check that should have blacklisted him well okay regarding Donna Richard Dwyer had a prior violent offense that was felonious that he did prison time

he had multiple multiple excuse me multiple he did over a decade in prison yes yes let's be clear about that For financial crime too Right Yes, yes you'd mention that too But like that's clear to me Like the background check would have gotten Dwyer and would have gotten him out of there

But Buddy Buddies was a misdemeanor like correct He was not violent The major difference The background checks in my mind Would have been Richard met Donna at work Yes

Like he would not have met her otherwise Whereas As Brandy, since Brandy and Levi were the main recruiters, then it's almost as if Kristiana had no chance. Right. Because no matter how good our background checks were, we were never going to catch Brandy. And same with Levi.

Yeah, he was already there. So, so Christiana had no, there's nothing we could have done on the front door with her. I agree. Now, rehiring him, obviously I have a serious problem. I had a serious problem. But again, Levi and Brandy were there. So I just think with Cristiana, unfortunately, there really isn't much any of our policies could have done to save her. I agree with that. Because the meeting wasn't necessitated by work, whereas the other one it was.

And like I didn't really put that together until this conversation because myself and a lot of people, since clearly Donna's murder had a huge fault owed to it by ACS, when somebody else died that had worked there, was related to people that work here, instantly were like, yep, call centers at it again. And already we thought so little of the place with everything going on that we're just like, oh, yeah, it had to have been their fault again. But in this case, I cannot see a scenario where any hiring process would have saved her life.

unfortunate as that is. And it's hard when it gets to the point where having another murder at your place of business doesn't seem too weird to you. And that's what I was saying. See, I'm going to be a little bit easier

on people just in the sense that I wonder how much of that was a defense mechanism. I was not what I was going to say. I think that's what it was. Because at the second time you're in disbelief. You're almost laughing it. You're laughing about it because you can't even believe that at this place, just so much bad is happening.

Now, your second murder in a place where nobody gets murdered, that is so hard to process and comprehend. Well, I mean, during 9-11, right? I remember because I watched the entire thing unfold. The first plane hits, and you're like, damn, bro, that's terrible. But the second plane hits, and you knew immediately a bunch of things. One, we're under attack. Two, that was purposeful.

three it's most likely it's going to happen again so when the second plane hit everybody in the room was the mood changed like that

initially it was like yeah that guy you can't tell it didn't have directions you can't tell directions it was like a big joke oh this guy crashed into a building

but the second crash everything stopped immediately and then after then people started saying wait a second it's not over what about us what if it happens to

what if somebody attacks me What if somebody attacks Florida? Nobody knew. And I think that's the effect that the second murder had. It was, this happened again. Our leadership is completely inept. They cannot protect us.

So let's just, this is almost like gallows humor, like laughing on the way to the electric chair. Yeah. I think a lot of the, I mean, I'll share a personal story. This is kind of weird. And you guys can decide to put it or not, but essentially, my ex the way she decided that she was done

with our family was to call a family meeting because everybody called a family meeting and then she proceeded to tell everybody I'm leaving like I'm out

and kids are like what's my she's like yeah I'm out and so of course two of my kids were like ah

and my oldest is actually pretty hard because I knew what he was doing he said this is good we won't have to worry about insurance

this is good I'm glad and you know he starts rationalizing it and and smiling and all this and I was like, okay, he's going to have the worst time.

And sure enough, he had the worst time. The one that cried about it immediately, she was the most well adjusted. Him, it took us a good two or three years to get him. He's just now recovered. So my point is that

it might be that the people that were making the most jokes were actually the most affected by it, actually. But defense mechanism lies your parents or the people above, you that are supposed to be taken care of you are completely clueless and cannot protect you and will not protect you unless there's some financial stake in it if you get found missing the only thing they're gonna worry about is the optics

how does it look on the outside right when we when when when when Christian went missing and we had the corporate whatever come up the big thing was the big primer wasn't look for her what was it what was the last thing you heard from her what was the last thing you heard from her what was the last text that wasn't the big thing the big thing was don't talk to anyone yeah don't talk to your family like what the hell like we can see i ain't really don't mean don't talk to my family if we catch you talking about on the call for instant termination yeah yeah and you're don't think we're not looking at your Facebook but I'm like

wait wait what and they were looking at our face yeah and they would they would they were dead ass they would fire you bro like period so it's like that the emphasis wasn't trying to find her or even okay so she's dead let's look at some safety measures or whatever or whatever it was just don't talk to everybody you talk to so so now the message is okay jessa if you get found missing guess what we're going to have a nice meeting and all we're going to do is tell people not to talk about you anyone who is there for any deep anyone who was there for any decent amount of time knew what was going on and already so many people felt insecure there they felt insecure about like am i

going to get my next paycheck like am i going to have a job in a couple weeks you know already there's a stigma that you're from Lewiston and you don't matter, you're scum, we know that. Yeah. And now on top of that, we could get murdered and it doesn't matter if we get murdered. Doesn't matter. Like, you don't feel secure in any single point of your life. Yeah. How does that feel?

Yeah. How must that feel? It's insane. Yeah. And I can't imagine, I can't imagine being a woman in that situation. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Because to me, I never once worried about.

I never once worried about, like, oh. somebody was killed that could happen to you like it never even crossed my mind like anything could happen to me you know what I was too young to comprehend it yeah and even worse I thought this must happen everywhere this must be normal this must be how a workplace is

yeah I was just so I would this was literally my first major job out of I yeah yeah you're getting these people at really impressionable ages man so I just remember and it didn't click until all the girls started coming in my office saying hey can you walk me here and what about you know there

was a trans individual and, you know, they were not being read as a female. So you had a bunch of girls that were terrified because this Christiana situation just happened. They look up. They see somebody they perceive to be male in the bathroom. So they're like, there's no safety here. We have no, you can't protect us. You can't do anything. And I just remember being at the point where I had to admit, like, well, I can't protect y'all from everything.

Like, I could walk you to your car. But I had to, like, no, you can't protect. anybody bro like you you want dude bro like it was it was very very very hard time and i'm very glad that you know you guys you guys made it out like we're talking about it like it's a like it's a like it's chicago or something like that but it was you had to be there to experience it was a uniquely this isn't an exaggeration at all this is this is not exaggerated to make it out of there meant something because there was all for people who left because at the time that was like one of the only places you could work

that paid a decent wage that wasn't manual labor. So there was this curse. If you left ACS, you would end up back there, one way or another. And I did. And that's what happened. And people would go to this other job. They thought they were turning over a new leaf, new chapter of their life. Something would happen.

And they'd have to come crawling right back. And the beast would just take them back in. This is where you belong. It would keep you in a state of poverty as well. Because after you got there and you were there for an extent, any period of time. Prices for everything were rising around you. Rent was going up, you know, food was going up. It was getting expensive. And even me working as a manager, I couldn't get out because the next best place to work was where I am now. And at the time, they had an extremely

strict dress code. And I couldn't leave because I couldn't afford to go buy a new wardrobe. And it's also very hard to get hired there. They called ACS a waiting room for the other place. That bank. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, uh, it was, it was, I mean, now bless God, we're doing YouTube. Yeah. And, uh, I'm very, very excited for you guys. Um, but it was, it was really difficult. And, um, you know, you just hope that you did some good in some people's life somewhere.

They still remember, be like, okay, you know, it was a blessing to be around those people. I was, I was blessed to be able to work with you. And it genuinely, it genuinely was. But that place was, you know, and I like that both of us took personal accountability for ourselves. We didn't blame the company for our own missteps. Yeah. And I'm big on that. At the same time, I will say that I preach this all the time to leaders.

Like, leaders set the environment in the context. And holy smokes, we had terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible leadership. Terrible leadership. So, I don't know. The moral of the story is if you find yourself in a leadership position, take sexual harassment, Seriously. Yes. And get to know your folks.

I think it's a lot harder to kill someone in a real environment where there's real community and people know. I believe that if we had an environment that you or you would have created, that Richard would have been afraid to kill Donna. I agree. Because people at work would have missed her and would have stood for it. But because he knew our environment and he knew that he knew that. employees were not truly valued, that was not a concern for him. 100%. When I mean not to to to my own horn, when I think of my team, 19, 21 people, not a, there

was no problems between anybody, not a single person because we had community. Exactly. And everyone was valued. And I was willing to go to bat for everyone. And in return, they gave me what I needed. They gave me those numbers. And I guarantee you that some bad decisions got reversed because of the type of environment you created.

But we never figured that out at the macro level. You had little pockets where people were taking care of people but at the macro level as a company we didn't do that. And the crazy thing is that was Michael Scott's greatest strength. He genuinely loved people but he was just

damn competent bro. When Michael Scott was there, it was the happiest time there. It was the happiest time. But he didn't have a gym that was kind of like the competent underling that would kind of smooth out his problems. He didn't have that.

He was just Michael Scott. And so God bless him, but you're not going to last very long, bro. Not in the corporation. So there you go, guys. I mean, that's all I got. That's all I got. I think. And so happy that you came here.

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming out and doing this. Oh, yeah. Especially, like, so when we started the misery machine, I'd mentioned this before, some of our viewers, like, we wanted to basically keep a record of everything that happened. at ACS because the fact that it happened that it's very rarely talked about, I just felt there's injustice in that, not letting people know what happened there. And there's very few people

left that want to talk about it or even want to talk about these murders. So have you come on and share what you went through and your thoughts on it, like, means so much to us. And like, not just to, you know, keep that, that everything awful happened in ACS. going forward, but to, you know, help humanize and do justice the memories of Christiana and Donna, because at the end of the day, when people get murdered here in Lewiston, they get erased, man. They become forgotten. Yep, 100%. So you coming on here helps fight that.

And I really appreciate that. Yeah, that was a major thing for me, for Donna and Christiana, and particularly Christiana. It just really got to me, bro, because, like I said, like, I said, like, You're crazy. So they would talk about Donna. They didn't lead off by saying, you know, call center worker Donna blah, blah, blah. But then they would talk about that with Christiana.

They would talk about her sex work. And I'm like, wait a second. She worked at the call center too. You couldn't, you couldn't mention that she worked. You just had to say that she was, you had to say that. And, you know, yeah, she was that. And, you know, that doesn't devalue her in any way, shape, or form. Not even point O one.

Her chosen profession doesn't reduce her value. as a human being. And for me, like, that was a big thing. It's like, I want Donna to get centered. I want Christiana to get centered. And, and I want her to look that as just a human being, period. Human being. And we're more than what we can produce. 100%. So that's the lie that capitalism has, has told us that you're only as valuable as what you can produce. And I don't think that that's true. I think when you look at people that way, you create environments where Donner and Christiana can happen. I'm not blaming capitalism.

What I'm saying is there are certain environments where certain actions are more likely to happen than not, is what I'm saying. Right. And so that's an environment that it's an un, you know, sort of thought of byproduct of capitalism that I think we need to take a very good hard look at. And I appreciate you both. I didn't get to hang with you a lot at work. I was actually trying to find a way out when I started becoming conscious of you at the site.

I was trying to get out of there. You're the one that hired me the first and the second time. I remember we were talking and then you asked me like, what's one thing that you could tell me about yourself that you didn't learn in this interview? and two things came up in my mind one was like oh just give him the whole like go him a workaholic stupid shit and yeah I was just like yeah you know what I'm a musician like I just I don't know why I just thought to tell you I was a musician then we started talking about music then we both found out we really love the band

receiving end of sirens yes bro and and we like I still talk about that band dude they're amazing they're amazing that's two records of all time I know oh my god shots of receiving end of sirens yeah absolutely absolutely so yeah I I remember that and then, yeah, that was, that's what got me. I don't know if that, that alone got me hired, but that was my first interview and that's how I ended up on your campaign. I definitely got you hired. He mentioned triosets.

Make the kid a manager, Kevin. And I just, you know, I got you back forever, bro. Forever. All right, there you go. I'm tired. I'm out of here. Yeah, let everybody know who doesn't already know you where we can find your channel. Well, if you're not watching this content, which you should, you can check us out.

Vin and Sorry, we do music reactions. Please check them out. Please, because they're awesome. But these guys are rock star. Best true crime show on the internet, bitches. I'm out of here. Vint out. Thank you.