The Misery Machine - Ronnie McNutt Revisited: An Interview with Josh Steen from JustUsGeeks.com |#ReformForRonnie

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

This week, Drewby and Yergy revisit the tragic case of Ronnie McNutt with a very special guest, Josh Steen from JustUsGeeks.com. Josh was a personal friend of Ronnie's that worked with him over the years creating content for their podcast, and was one of the folks that unfortunately witnessed his final moments. We were privileged to have him sit down with us for an interview to set the record straight about who Ronnie was as a person and what went on that evening, and shed some light on his movement, #ReformForRonnie - which is aimed at holding social media platforms such as Facebook, TikTok, and Google accountable for upholding their own terms of service by accepting responsibility for all content created and distributed on their platforms, and in addition, to respond efficiently when terms of service and standard violations occur.  Suicide Hotlines Worldwide: http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html LGBTQ+ Lifeline: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/help-yourself/lgbtq/ Veterans Crisis Line: https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/ Join Our Facebook Group to Request a Topic: https://t.co/DeSZIIMgXs?amp=1 Support Our Patreon For More Unreleased Content: https://www.patreon.com/themiserymachine PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/themiserymachine Instagram: miserymachinepodcast Twitter: misery_podcast Discord: https://discord.gg/kCCzjZM #podcast #documentary #truecrime #2hoursand41minutes #ReformForRonnie  Source Material: http://justusgeeks.com/reformforronnie-a-call-for-change/ https://heavy.com/news/2020/09/ronnie-mcnutt-facebook-video/?fbclid=IwAR3bE17OeEERkg77Ko0argmkojYager4WzpwSjpx1ANfKIZyLCNwbROupMo

with Kighten, the Sitt Sprite, and special guest, this is Turkish, who's staying with us for a day. Thank you, Amanda. And this week, we're doing a very special episode. This is an interview we did recently with Josh from Justice Geeks podcast, who was a close friend with Ronnie McNutt, who we did an episode on a couple weeks ago. We felt it was important for him to come on for a number of reasons. to clear up a lot of misinformation in the media about what happened with Ronnie. Including something that ended up on our podcast because we did a lot of our research based on what we had heard in the media. Yeah, and unfortunately, if you look up a lot of things on Ronnie and the accounts that happened, a lot of those things are consistent with what we said, and the only way to disprove this is to either,

one, know Ronnie personally or two to have watched the video. And again, we have not watched the video, we don't plan to watch the video. watch the video. We urge you not to watch the video, but we feel this is a very important thing for a number of reasons. One, because of, you know, suicide prevention. And two, because, you know, as we'll get into and we'll cover with Josh's new venture reform for Ronnie, social media platforms are not doing what they should do. And we feel like they could have intervened and made it so these countless numbers of people who witnessed Ronnie's video would probably have never seen it had Facebook intervened in time. In addition, it is speculated through Josh. And I think what he has to say

is extremely valid that had Facebook abided by their own terms of service, Ronnie would still be alive today. Yeah. And you'll hear more. You'll hear more in the podcast. This was... Josh gives us just the interview was amazing. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for her. his time. Yeah, very grateful. All links to all this stuff to Justice Geeks podcast, the Reform for Ronnie page. That is all below. I urge you to check it out and to listen to this podcast in full. But without further ado, our interview with Josh. Okay, so Josh, thank you so much for coming to talk with us today.

You still run Justice Geeks podcast, but it seems like you've been taking a break from that to work on your reform for Ronnie cause, correct? Well, it's really interesting. First, thanks guys for having me. Thank you. Absolutely. We took a lot of podcasts to do. We took a hiatus for a while over a year ago. I started Just Us Geeks in 2012 and it was a really great hobby. As you know how podcasting goes. And as I also got another hobby that became my full-time job while I had a full-time job. And then this hobby that is now my full-time job, it was really hard to do podcasting at the same time.

And we suspended Justice Us Geeks instead of just being like, ah, it's over. We hadn't put it on an episode in a while, but we have had our private Facebook group for a long time. Like, it's been active since we went on hiatus. And when Ronnie passed away, it was one of those things where, like, I didn't really know what to do at first. because I'm an executive director for a nonprofit, so taking action is kind of what I do in a lot of ways for a lot of things. And so I wasn't really sure what to do, but we kept getting these really trolley comments on our site and in episodes that he had done is really just kind of pissing me off. And so when I had kind of talked with Emily about Reform Forani, I thought, well, I could create a brand new platform. for this or I could use this platform that we already have that isn't very big, but it is something.

And it's something that Ronnie worked on to be the voice for this. And to be really honest, if Just Us Geeks was still super active and Ronnie wasn't a, and even if it had been, a huge part of what we were doing, then this is definitely something we would have given an episode to. So for me, Jug was a real, really nice. platform for this because it's something that Ronnie spent a lot of time working with and it's still a great way to connect with him in a way that I've felt safe to over the past month or so. I know that's probably odd to say, but it's being as closely connected to him as I was, even just through weird back channels. You know, having witnessed his death live, I've really tried to actually. avoid seeing as much of it as I can. And so the podcast is our platform for that.

It's been a really great way for me personally to, I don't know, grieve a little bit, process some of it and still access some of his content where I know it's a safe way to do so. I think that makes a lot of sense. Do you want to touch on Ronnie's contributions to joke before we go forward? Oh, no. I think it's really important. First off, I met Ronnie in the early 2000s.

I met him through the community theater that I'm the executive director of now, actually. We were doing a musical together. Ronnie was not musically gifted. Not at all. But he always showed up and went over and above anything anyone asked him to do. We were around the same age, and so he kind of hung out with us older people that were doing the show together. He's had a great energy. I can hear his laugh.

He had a really funny laugh, a distinct laugh. So when we were actually doing the show, we were doing Footloose the Musical. I was Reverend Shaw Moore, so I was one of the leads. And he was Ren's uncle. And there's this one scene where Ronnie is confronting Ren and he ends up having to slap him. And it's this really big dramatic moment for as dramatic as you can get in a musical done by teenagers and young adults. We have rehearsal blocks in the theaters. It's like they stand in for furniture and stuff like that that you don't use until it's time for the actual show.

And underneath one of them, I had spray painted the word balls. And if I held it up just right, it would reflect where only he could see it from his point on stage. And it was always my goal to get him to try to laugh on stage in the middle of this really hyper-sensitive scene. Whereas now is it a director, I would hate anyone that did. that, but it was hilarious to me in the time. Ronnie had a great sense of humor, had a really great personality. He, you know, went off to college and stuff like that. I was already in college when I met Ronnie.

And when he came back from Iraq, it was a little different. But we started Just Us Geeks in 2012, me and three other friends of mine. We did it because we had been getting together once a week anyway to like go eat Buffalo Wild Wings. One of our friends who founded the podcast with me was kind of the tech guy. And he was like, we should do this. We're talking. We should record it. And so we did.

So like our first couple of episodes weren't really great. However, here out of nowhere comes Ronnie McNutt. So the first, I don't know, seven episodes of the show didn't have just a lot of direction. We were just aimlessly ramble for an hour or so. And Ronnie created this character that actually has his Twitter handle, hinderless. I think he's maybe his Instagram handle too, anyway. So he created this hinderless

character that was essentially like our nemesis because we had, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Phoenix Jones who was like a real life superhero in Seattle area. I lived in Seattle for 13 months, so yeah, I'm familiar with Phoenix shows, yeah. Well, we actually interviewed Rex Velvet, his

arch nemesis in like episode 8 or something like that. And so Ronnie took a cue from that and created this hinderless character that made bad reviews of our podcast and called us idiots and everything else. And so like he helped our story go from like here's just four dudes rambling to okay, here are some guys talking. And now because of this person who's creating these reviews and being an active participant in what we're doing, he helped give our story a little bit of narrative, which is a person who tells stories for a living, man, I didn't realize how valuable that was at the time, but it was super valuable. That actually ended up

being really one of the most valuable pieces in all of Justice Geeks history. And so Ronnie, he would come to our live shows and stuff like that. Episode 34 was the first time we had Ronnie on as an on-mike guest. One of the co-hosts had to be out, and we used to do these cold opens. So I highly encourage you to go listen to episode 34, the cold open to it. None of the content that we talked about in that is like relevant anymore because it's like 2013. And we got so many things wrong about so many things. Our audio producer was huge into David Letterman.

So Ronnie created this top 10 list that is hilarious. And he did it under the guise of this hinderless character. It really, it really ended up being a really successful episode. It was really great. And then when we transitioned casts away from the original four folks, Ronnie became a huge, a huge part of keeping our podcast alive. If it hadn't been for him, I would have given up. He became a regular on-mic guest, our co-host. He wrote content for our website. He was amazing. He a lot of times was the energy I needed to keep going. He took a job out of state, and so we transitioned

casts again. He was still an active part of our conversation and our Facebook group. Ronnie was like the way that we knew that not just our wives and our moms were listening to Just Us Geeks. So like when we did our 50 Shades of Gray episode and it had almost a million downloads, I thanked him because we couldn't have gotten there without him. He was hugely a huge part of what we did. And I've reached out to him not long ago because we had taken this hiatus and I'd promise our jugheads as our followers are known. I had promised the Jugheads that we would bring the show back

and finish out with seven more episodes to get to episode 300 and then call it. One of our very first listeners, a really long time listener of the show, passed away a couple of months ago in his sleep, probably COVID-related. He had some other health problems, but just up and just was gone. And Ronnie and I had met him in person several times, and they communicated back and forth. And so I said to him, hey, man, the first show back, we're going to do a tribute to Shannon.

I'd really like for you be a part of that. That was the plan. Didn't really plan then for episode 294 to be about Ronnie, but that's kind of the way it's going to shake out. But yeah, we certainly wouldn't have gotten to 294 episodes without him. He was an interesting guy. I've said a lot and I'll continue to say, he wasn't my best friend by any stretch of the means, right?

Ronnie was always that friend that he would just randomly pop up and you would talk to him like you had been talking to him every day for four years. But I always knew that he was my friend. It's why I absolutely say that if our roles were reversed right now, that he would be doing the same for me. So McNutt was a good dude. And he had his demons like a lot of people do, like everybody does, really. It's my firm belief that no one should be defined by the darkest moment in their life.

I don't think that he intended to start. I don't think he started that live stream with the intent to finish it the way that he did. but he did. Since then, a lot of things have gone out that have been not true or have been made to misrepresent who he was as a person who was in that moment. And to be perfectly honest, none of this would even be a conversation point now if Facebook had actually done their job. So that's really kind of what reform for Ronnie is all about. This isn't a suicide prevention movement. This isn't a censorship movement. Unfortunately, Ronnie's moment that was captured and ridiculously spread all over the internet raises a whole lot of questions that we just kind of would like some answers to because

it's kind of the guy that he was. He loved to create content. He was a really inquisitive guy like Magic the Gathering. He liked a lot of nerdy, geeky stuff. But he was always true to anything that he did. So my gut says that I have to do this project, the way. way that he would tackle anything else. And as I told my wife the couple of days before we launched, Reform Ferranis, kept trying to report accounts who were harassing his family and instances of the video over and over and over. I told her, I was like, I think I need me a little bit of hindrless. I need just a little bit of hindrless to do something about this. And I found it. And so that's kind of what Reform Farani is all about. I've seen so many people say,

I wish I would have known him. And while I think that he would be embarrassed about why we're even having this conversation, I think it's really important that you look for people like Ronnie McNutt in your life because they're there. I believe that people are good as a whole. I'm just a very empathetic person by nature, which is just who I am. And so, like, I know that I'm hyper aware for people like Ronnie in my life. By all accounts, there are people struggling with issues just like he did all across the world that it might not be so obvious. He was a good guy. He is greatly missed. I've had some real jerks say, oh, you're just using this for some old personal agenda or your own political agenda. You don't really care about Ronnie? No, I absolutely do care about Ronnie,

and that's exactly why I'm doing it because I'm not getting paid to do this. I don't ever want any money for doing this. I'm doing something I think my friend would do. It's the right. thing to do because it's the kind of guy he was. So that's what this is about. That's why I think it ties really well to this platform that he helped me build. No, we totally agree. And he definitely and you just seem like our type of people. Drewby and I are both very geeky folks. Yeah. And also what you said about finding people who are like Ronnie, like you, I believe that most people are inherently good at their core. And right now, a lot of people are suffering. And I think it's, It's coming out in ways that even those people don't expect it to within themselves.

And right now, a lot of people are divisive. A lot of people are at each other's throats, and there's not a whole lot of empathy. There's not a whole lot of compassion. And that's why I feel right now it's really important to be able to connect with people. We're losing a lot of people right now, a lot of people that I feel we don't have to lose. And in Ronnie's situation, honestly, I think if he had just an ounce more clarity in that situation, Ronnie McNutt is at work right now. You know, like he's, he is.

I think it was the reporter from Rolling Stone said, so he was an alcoholic, right? No, he wasn't an alcoholic. Was he drunk? Yeah, yeah, he was. I'd seen him drunk probably one time, and it was like two beers that got him that way, so his tolerance was really low.

But you just never understand how someone is hurting. And Ronnie chose not to hide that in a lot of ways. And he used so. media to a become a therapeutic outlet for himself and for others. The really sad thing is that you're right. It does seem like we get we're an awful lot of like. I feel like that's probably that's probably the way that a lot of folks that I've interacted with over the last month and year are.

You know, I think that everyone has some common ground. But this one issue, and this is the part that I think that he would be embarrassed about himself for. The fact that this clip of this video was allowed to be spread all across the world has more than likely created the exact same mental health issues that Ronnie suffered from. Absolutely. Yes. In small children, in adults, in senior adults. And I know that because I've been in contact with thousands of people from all across the world who have said that to. me. I mean, it's a huge issue. And, you know, welcome to the United States of America, where this Iraq war veteran who had some severe mental health issues because of his time in the service,

wasn't able to get really great direct access to mental health care. And, you know, who else can in the situation that Ronnie was in? Not a hell of a lot of people. I mean, just to be, you know, perfectly frank, again, executive director of a nonprofit, I feel like I make too much money anyway. I always feel guilty about that. So I dare not ask for health insurance because it would be a cost that we would incur. The state of Mississippi chose to not really actively participate in the Affordable Care Act. So our marketplace really has only one option. It's really, really expensive to get health care for me. and I'm a late 30s guy with no real pre-existing conditions. And it's still really expensive.

So it'd be even more expensive for me to get mental health care. The VA that Ronnie had access to over four hours away. And so knowing this one clip, this 45 seconds that I watched in real time that was, yes, more traumatic for me because I was his friend. and I'd been on the live stream for over 30 minutes of that point, watching my friend hurt. I'll never, ever, I don't know that there would be anything that anyone could do to help me really process that because of my connection to him.

But I know that I don't have the direct access to it. And so the fact that this one clip has probably caused multiple issues on a variety of levels is just astounding. And again, really, that's what. this is about because this isn't just something that affects one strain of people. Literally all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds all across the world have reached out to me and say, oh my God, I've seen that. What do I need to do? Every time someone has said to me, I've seen this video here, here and here, the very first thing I say to them is, stop. I highly encourage you

right now to seek the care of a mental health professional if you can. If you can't, I can offer you some online options that are cheaper, but that's the first thing I've encouraged anyone to do because no one should witness that. They just shouldn't. And they wouldn't have had to witness it had it not been available for them to witness. So this is one of those things where it really has affected all kinds of people. And unfortunately, folks like us who are super pop culture fans, geeks and nerds. nerds alike who are so into all of these things that we can find at the tip of our fingers,

you've probably stumbled across this on accident. The fact that that has probably had some effect on millions of people, unintentionally, by Ronnie's part, is really, really disturbing. That's the disturbing thing to me. Again, I say it's not a suicide awareness issue because I'll be happy to tell you guys in a bit about some of the progress that we've made. You'll get to hear it before anybody. But this, A, this isn't about censorship because I feel like you should be able to say whatever you want, wherever you want it, as long as it's in the guidelines of either your local law or the community guidelines, which your social networks ask you to abide by.

But suicide is always going to be a thing. And it's horrible, right? It really, really is. At the same time that I've been listening to a lot of cyber law podcasts, I've also been listening to a lot of mental health podcasts. and I unfortunately listened to this podcast earlier today where this guy had attempted suicide himself and he was talking about this issue and I thought, man, why are you doing this?

It's got to be making it worse for you. Suicide is a thing that is going to exist. But if the conversation about it has changed, then maybe the social stigma around it is a little bit different. And if the social stigma around suicide is a little bit different than maybe people wouldn't use it like a flippin weeping. You know, I mean, because that's what's, occurred here is people are using this clip of this guy that was my friend committing suicide

as a weapon because it has this social stigma attached to it. But no, it's not a stop suicide or give money to a suicide prevention cause because ultimately Ronnie had a choice. And it's my belief in a lot of ways that because of the issues that he had, unless he had sought more help than he was getting, this is the outcome. Did it need to happen on Facebook? No. But it was his choice. Just like it's my choice to watch his live stream. You know, I purposely clicked on it, knowing that he was drunk and firing a gun. But it was his life. It was his choice. And people are always going to do that. Should you exploit it? No. Should you make a meme out of it? Hell no. And should you use it as a weapon to scar children on TikTok, double hell no. So I think that's important to know is that

there are some things that our issue is about, but it's definitely not that because I wish that he had gotten help. I tried to call him twice. I don't think that would have done any good, even if he'd answered the phone. And I did create a message for him in our Facebook group that I know that he read twice because I got confirmation that he read it. But he didn't want to talk to me. And that's something that I respect. And it's something that I have to live with. I don't think that I could have changed that outcome. And I don't think that a lot of people can change the outcome for a lot of folks.

But you can help by not being a jerk. That's number one. And reaching out to people like Ronnie in your life because more than likely they've seen this content. And if they suffered from mental health issues before, it's definitely something that needs to be talked about now. Yeah, and I think the damage this is doing has really been understated. A lot of people, like, this isn't the narrative in the media. When this happened, this is not really what was being talked about.

I know we mentioned in our last episode that stuff like this existed, the 4chan days, mid-2000s, early 2010s, but it wasn't so widely shared. The people that this was exposed to were people who were already on certain platforms, where you kind of knew the inherent risk that could be brought in front of you. But this is unthinkable. Totally different. Like, I know young children, six, seven, eight years old with TikTok,

and this is being cut into cat videos and things of that nature. A mother of a five-year-old from Australia contacted us and said, my daughter just happened to pick up my phone while it was open on TikTok and started to scroll. And there it was.

Oh, my. A five-year-old doesn't remember. really know how to communicate. No. Right. We, I have a 10 year old and I have two older children than are my stepchildren. But my 10 year old, she's the target market for TikTok. And, you know, we were against it for a long time, right? Because we didn't really use it. It's not something that is really applicable to my job or hasn't been, but it wasn't something that my wife and I used personally. And then Emily downloaded it for dog training videos because our dog is a jerk. And just because they're fun.

And I said to her, I was like, I'm so glad that Lucy, we didn't let her have a TikTok. Because my gut says, because she's a lot like me, that we would have known that she had seen it. But my gut also says that because I know my child, and I know that there are millions of children like her on earth, that if she had said anything to us or kids saying anything to their parents, they might feel like they were in trouble. And so they would just internalize it. I 1,000% think that's what my kid would have done. She would have internalized this because it was really, really difficult to have the conversation of, no, I have to go to work at three in the morning because I have to do an interview with BBC because my friend died and I have to tell you why. We tried to keep this from my kid for long enough before she realized, Dad, your patterns are totally different.

your patterns are totally different. You're not talking about, you know, the theater as much. We're actually working on a play together right now. She was like, you know, you haven't even put out a rehearsal schedule yet. What's going on? My 10-year-old says this to me. What's going on? And so it was just a conversation that we had to have.

And that was, you know, a week after I had done my heavy.com interview. So my gut says she would have maybe just internalized it. And then that's something that she has to deal with forever. it's unconscionable that this is content that a small child could get their hands on. And I'll say now that TikTok has actually owned up to this the absolute best. When they were under the thumb of the federal government, they said, you know what, we're not doing this so great and we're going to be honest about it. I'll tell you all that I have had some really great productive conversations with senior leadership at TikTok.

We had a Zoom chat the other day with some folks, and they are committed to making sure that this doesn't happen ever again. That's good. Yeah, I mean, legitimately, they are, from a social network standpoint, they're kind of the baby in the Big Ten. They really, really, really are taking this seriously. And they actually have taking it seriously. their systems were really overwhelmed when the initial reporting began. But it also said to them, hey, our reporting isn't the greatest. We need to fix that.

So I have to give it to their executive team. To be really frank, Ronnie McNutt probably caused Microsoft not to buy TikTok. That is unconscionable, but it's true. Yeah, I never considered that, but you're probably absolutely right. Well, I know that I am. And that's all that I'm really at liberty to say, but I know that. that I am. Yeah.

And one of their senior staff said to me the other day that, you know, live streaming isn't very popular on their service. And it's something that they have interest in making very popular. But they're hyper aware that their reporting has to be top notch for that to happen. This one scenario just said to them, whoa, we've got to go back to the drawing board. You know, because if this content got to our platform on the level it did, and they speculated it was around roughly 10,000 separate users that they're referring to as bad actors, which I think is a good applicable term, that puts that content on their platform.

They realized, hey, we can't push live streaming. We're not prepared for it. Look what just happened to Facebook. We have to go back to the drawing board. So some good has come out of this, which is really, really nice. But yeah, I will say that they have owned up to their end of it, probably. way more so than the public knows. I do think that had we not been in the middle of 2020 being a dumpster fire, that this would have gotten way more traction than it has in a lot of areas. I reached out to

both the Trump and Biden campaigns. I actually had a great contact directly get me in touch with the Biden campaign. And we just live in this world right now. That is it just in the middle of such unrest, everyone is feeling uneasy. That I really hope that after the election, it doesn't really matter which side of the politics you want to be on, but after the election, this is an issue that can take some national focus. Absolutely. I'm a little speechless right now. There's a couple things. We can obviously talk more about the progress you've made with Form for Ronnie if you want to cover more of that, but I think it might be also a good opportunity. If you wanted to clear up, since you watched the live stream, I'm assuming you were watching it live, neither of us

have seen that. And we don't want and we don't want to. But some of the things that we talked about on our last episode were based on other people's reviews of seeing it. And since we couldn't go and watch it ourselves to confirm that, we had to basically go off. of what a number of people were saying. So do you want to clear up what had happened on that? Absolutely. Okay. First of all, I was here in my office doing some work about 10 o'clock when I noticed that Ronnie had gone live. I had notifications turned on for him. And this was something that he did frequently. So like this is my, if I want to go all investigative journalists here with this, that that is my evidence that I don't feel like he set out.

to do this to, you know, commit suicide publicly because he had this really beautiful digital trail of streamed content. I literally said out loud, I wonder what McNutt is rambling about. I'll check it out later. 50 minutes later, maybe 45 minutes later, I received a Facebook message from a very, very long time listener, one of the very first listeners of our podcast. His name is RJ Sills. And RJ is a friend. I hadn't talked to him quite a while. We usually will go back and forth on Twitter, but I thought it was odd to get a Facebook message from him. It was, hey, man, hope you're okay. I just want to notify you to this that's going on.

And he told me that Ronnie was live. He was drunk and that he was talking about suicide and that he had misfired a weapon. I said, oh, okay, I'll go check it out right now. So I did. I had my computer out because I was listening to podcasts. So I just went on Facebook and sure enough, they're his genius. self was. I watched about 30 seconds of it and thought, this isn't good. He is pretty drunk. And there is a weapon. So I reported it to Facebook at around 10.01, 1002. First of all, there's this

huge misnomer. And I did an interview with Snopes.com, which was maybe the most, one of the most surreal things of my entire life when Snopes.com wants to fact check you on something. That's pretty surreal. He was incredibly intoxicated. And he had not lost his job. I know that because his employers, his supervisors were at his funeral. He was talking in the live stream about how he had some failures in his jobs before. And he took those really, really seriously. Actually, there was a lot of our conversation. And it was one of the reasons why he moved was to move to a position where he thought he could move upwards because he wasn't really a stagnant kind of guy. Anyway, so he had not lost his job. He was not losing his apartment. And yes, his girlfriend had broken up with him. I realized

about 10.05, I needed to really kick this into gear. We had been out of town and traveled back early into town that day. And so my wife was asleep. And so I took a screenshot on my phone at 10.06 p.m. that I actually just happened to catch him holding up the weapon. And a number of comments on the Facebook post, on the stream post, and how many people were viewing it live at that time. How many people were viewing it live? Currently, it was 1.45. Okay. Then, just then.

And that was about 20 minutes before his death. And so I just kind of did what I would do for anyone in the situation. I actually got another couple of people involved to try to, help me get to him right there in person. I assumed that he was living in Tupelo, Mississippi, which is where he had lived before when he was here in our area, but he wasn't. He was living in New Albany, Mississippi.

And where I am is about 45 minutes away. And so I was trying to connect with people to get in touch with him that could maybe go there to where he was. And so I'd roped in like two, three other people to watch this with me and try to get him some help. I called him for my cell phone because I knew that he would recognize my number. And what he was doing was that point in time,

there were 607 comments on the live stream. And Ronnie McNutt loved to argue. He did. That's why he created this hinderless character, but he loved it. He loved a good confrontation. He loved a really good debate. And so all these people had gotten on the live stream

because Facebook's algorithm, because the stream was so popular, right, started showing it to more and more people. So more people had gotten into the comments and were trying to message him directly and commenting on it directly. People didn't even know and were engaging him, which if you report something like that to Facebook, they give you suggestions on how to engage this person. And all it was doing was pissing him off. So these people would contact me like, oh, Ronnie, you matter, please don't.

don't. And then he would just systematically shut them down with, I try to talk to you about this, this and this. And you didn't give a damn about me. So in the midst of that, I had called him once from my cell phone. He looked at the phone, let it ring. I watched him do it. I called for my office number, which is a number that he would have known. He looked at it, let it ring, and continued to argue and debate. And so we had kind of figured out where he was and how to get there. I had actually connected with his best friend who had said, the police are there, they're outside, they've been outside. Well, I got notified to watch this because he was drunk and misfired this rifle. Another misnomer. It wasn't a shotgun, as a lot of people have said. It was a single shot,

cheap-ass hunting rifle. And he misfired it and reloaded. And he did that before I even began to watch. And so talking with his best friend who was, oh, you know, the police are outside. We're trying to, you know, figure out if somebody can get there. The situation is becoming more and more dire. And I was actively on the phone trying to get him help when I heard him say, well, that's it. And it was enough to, like, this conversation happened so, so, so, so, so. quickly the last conversation that he had that like I wasn't even really paying attention. At that point, well over 200 people were watching live. Three other people were watching this

in real time because of me. And we've been communicating on Facebook Messenger, all of us. And it's all kind of really white. The noise is white. Like there's not a lot of noise. Everything got kind of quiet. And everything that I can recall in my mind is blurry, even though I know that it wasn't. And I yelled really, really loud and waited for a couple of minutes for the police to, I guess, feel like it was okay to enter the apartment. I sent his best friend, who was one of his pallbearers at his funeral, a message at 1035, and said, were they not outside? And they were. The police just chose not to intervene. Here you have an incredibly, drunk guy with a single shot weapon. Police didn't intervene. There were people outside the

apartment who wanted to intervene. They didn't allow them to. And that seemed to be kind of that. So they made no effort to even make contact with him. They just stayed outside until they felt it was okay to come in. They essentially, yes, they tried to throw a bullhorn, communicate with him. But basically, they made the situation worse. Ronnie found himself in a perfect storm, right? It started in Iraq where his PTSD triggered other mental health issues that he had. And it built and built and built and built till he's at this moment where things aren't going the best. And now he's drunk.

Now he's in this apartment where there is a weapon. And these people are engaging him over and over and over and over and over and over on Facebook, which is the thing that he loves. And then, boom, the police are outside. Ronnie worked for a mental health facility for several years. years. And he said on the video, if they come in here, I'm going on psych hold for 72 hours at least. What does that mean? He's probably going to lose his job. Yeah. He was backed into a corner he could not have gotten out of. Not successfully. You put a guy who's having relationship problems into a corner

with alcohol, PTSD, the fact that he's worked his ass off for all of his life to deal with his mental health issues, then his PTSD is he's being reacclimated into society to be able to hold a job and maintain relationships and knows that if he goes with these cops, he's going to lose this job. So if he loses a job, he's probably going to lose his apartment. Then he's got an arrest on record. If Facebook had just intervened at 1002, not only would that video not exist, but I really think my friend wouldn't be dead. at 1002, they would have given him the option to not be backed into a corner.

Again, this is one of those issues that I feel like there are so many, has so many roots, right? Like its roots are deeply embedded in so many things. Did the police do their job? You know, the police constitutionally have no constitutional commandment to protect you at any moment in time. You know, protect and serve is not actually part of it. their job description. I listened to a really interesting podcast about that the other day. Radio Lab, I highly recommend it. You know, on top of that, you have mental health issues, you have lack of health care, you have an employment system that doesn't really encourage

you to get it because they don't give you time off to do so. It was the perfect storm for Ronnie that had just been building and building and building and building. I'm not going to now, and I'll not ever get into it being anyone's fault. Because it isn't anyone's fault. It's not even Ronnie's fault. All of this is not Ronnie's fault. But Ronnie felt like, well, it's either this or that for me. And unfortunately, he was put into a position where that was the easiest way out. And it's not something I agree with. I don't think that he would have harmed a friend or a family member had they entered his apartment. Couldn't even really stand up. To be really frank, he was so drunk he almost missed when he ended his life.

I feel like police could have intervened. But, you know, this one particular issue has so many other issues. When you go and you seek out this content to help change your friend's story on the internet and you've learned that so many people just get a lot of things wrong, you kind of feel it's important because this video spread so virally because these trolls created this narrative for him, right? Like, they created for him the story that he had lost his job. He was losing an apartment. His girlfriend broke up with him, and he killed himself with a shotgun. Well, A, one, two, and three make him sound really desperate, right? Number four makes it sound

far more gruesome. So if you're looking for that kind of content, oh man, it's worse. That's the kind of content you're looking for and want to distribute, right? So these narratives that were created around his death that are wrong helped fuel the spread of this content. And legitimately, is it a big deal that it was a rifle and not a shotgun? No, it's really not, because my friend is still dead. Changing, like, you know, correcting the record isn't going to bring him back. However, it just shows how misinformation works in these social networks and is allowed to spread and make things worse. And so for me, that's important, right? Like, it's important, A, that his story be told correctly.

But B, you know, I think really put out there that, yeah, he had a bad day. When we have bad days, we all deal with it differently. Unfortunately, his bad day ended up with him being backed into a corner. He didn't feel like he'd get out of. and then this content was allowed to be raked all over the internet and then you know i don't know used as a weapon for his nephew against his nephew at public school you know which is horrific to think about oh my god i didn't know that i didn't know that either um yeah no that's that's that's a newer thing it's not really new but it's a it's a it's a thing that the family is dealing with so

in the four or five days after ronnie's death after the funeral even all of the the people that gave a damn about this guy feel like they're at the end of the rope because we've reported accounts, we've reported comments, we've reported and reported and reported and reported, and nothing is being done. To me, it was either I'm going to give up or literally stop everything I'm doing and see what I can do. And I just, I knew that man. You know, I've seen so many people on Twitter, I think, that got, that have said over and over, oh, wait, that's real. Because I'm so glad that you both haven't seen it.

And highly encourage your listeners not to see it. And if you have, I'm so, so sorry. But it is so graphic that it doesn't look real. What I've said to both TikTok and to Google executives is, I think it's important to remember that this person in this video, and that this story is about was real. He was real. I patted him on the back.

Have a photo at my 30th birthday party that was a surprise party that he helped my wife coordinate with my arm around him. He was there. He would have been here for our next podcast had he not passed away. So who he was as a person, the fact that he was real, matters to me enough to say, well, that part of the story is wrong. Because if you're just making up crap to make it seem worse and to make him seem more like a loser or more of this or more of that than, you know, A, that's bad on its own. But B, that is exactly the kind of misinformation that helps the video become a viral cancer, to be really honest. And, you know, I think even in my initial conversations with you guys, I don't want you to think that it was out of.

some kind of anger or anything else like that. I just think it's really important to know, oh, hey, because I just listened to three other podcasts today. It said the exact same thing, things that you guys had said, because you were just saying what you'd found on the internet. Right. And that's the problem. People who watched him do it, that were not his friends,

that spread that live stream while it was still an active live stream, started to create that misinformation about who he was, because they knew that that content would spread virally. One thing that I did want to ask as far as clearing up the misinformation, there was one thing that we saw online a few times. And it was that before he decided to take his own life, he was trying to call somebody. Some people say it was his ex-girlfriend. Some people say it was his mother. Are you able to clear up what actually was the truth on that?

Yes. He had declined calls from his mom, who I don't know how she's dealing with any of this. She is such a wonderfully sweet woman. And he wanted to speak to this girl that he had had a relationship with. And she called him. And she was the last person that he spoke to. I'll bet I love the podcast medium. So it gives me the ability, I think, to be a little bit more frank than perhaps on the phone with a reporter, which is fine.

again, I said before, no one is to blame here. I don't think that she handled that conversation particularly well because I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she was not watching live. Because I don't think that she was. She's younger than Ronnie. I saw somewhere that someone claimed that she was like a child and that's not true. She was younger than him. She didn't handle it well.

and I know what she said because you can hear the conversation, but ultimately that perfect storm is what led Ronnie to that moment. It wasn't one thing. Do I think if Facebook had interrupted his live stream, that would have stopped that perfect storm? Yeah, I do. A 1,000% do. because had they done that at 10 p.m.,

well, he doesn't have 30 minutes of buildup of people revving him up, right? I think had one thing gone differently in that perfect storm, that result would not have happened at that point in time. She didn't handle herself very well, but at the same time, if I'm going to say that, and this was said at his funeral, his best friend said this, and it's absolutely true. if you knew Ronnie, you knew that Ronnie was this great positive guy.

And at some point, if you're able to go back through his digital trail, through all these videos he had made that he made to encourage others who were struggling just like him, you can see that. But then there was this other side of Ronnie that didn't deal well with a lot of things. And that is the side that won. And that's not my friend. So Ronnie isn't to blame. girl's not to blame

she didn't handle it well you know the roommate his roommate wasn't to blame because he wasn't home the people you know who tried to call him aren't to blame his mom's not to blame his brother's not to blame there no one is to blame

and he himself is not to blame for what has transpired but he had taken a phone call from her and that was the last phone call he took I appreciate you clearing that up Have you had any dialogue with any representative from Facebook? Really funny.

I have had some very interesting conversations with all the social media networks somewhat. Facebook has issued two statements, and then they stopped responding, and they've not responded directly to me, although I have been told that they are aware of me personally, which is scary, but they have not communicated directly to me or. to Just Us Geeks, and they've really even stopped responding to requests from media. Because if we think back a bit to the last time Facebook Live was really in the news, it was the Christchurch massacre. Right. And New Zealand had to sue Facebook for the statistics for that event, correct? To which Facebook ultimately said that only 200 people watched the Christchurch massacre. on Facebook Live. Well, as a person who watched my friend

in his life on Facebook Live in real time, I can tell you, which is bizarre, that more people watched Ronnie in his last moments than did the Christ Church Massacre. And that's horrific. The fact that Facebook has refused to really come clean with a lot of things is pretty damning in my opinion. We're going to get into this on episode 294 of our podcast, but

Google, I think, probably a lot of people, you know, I'm from the South. So if somebody says, hey, go get me a Coke, they could mean any form of soda, right? Like here in Mississippi, we say Coke instead of soda or pop or something like that. Well, that's really kind of how a lot of people view the Internet in Google, because Google is so widely used, right? Like, oh, it's a I'm looking it up on Google, where you have this idea that Google somehow is the actual internet, but it's really not. Google is bound just like Facebook and Twitter and every other company that uses the internet by Section 230, which is law in the United States.

And episode 294 of our podcast that's going to be upcoming soon is going to deal very heavily with Section 230 because the whole point of reform for Ronnie is not censorship. We don't want people, we don't want the government in charge of what we're saying and doing on the internet, right? That's crazy. No one wants that. We just want these companies like Facebook, who just happens to be worth an estimated $806 billion to own up to their end of this. Because to be really frank, even though the video got spread to TikTok, hey, the video doesn't get spread to TikTok and millions of children all across the globe are permanently skis. guard if Facebook intervenes in the live recording, right? In that live stream, if Facebook intervenes when I reported them to them that this was going on, the video doesn't exist. So do all of these

networks need to do things better? Yes. TikTok is saying that they do. Google is actively trying to find ways to do things better with the money that they have to do so, which I can tell you is not a lot. You would think that these social networks have just endless amounts of money at their disposal to stop things like this, but they don't. Because preventative teams that deal around global issues like suicide and self-harm don't get the same kind of funding that child pornography does. And then on top of that, they don't make money. Do they save these companies' monies? Yes, but do they make money? No. So the CEOs and boards of these companies are inclined to not really put the best foot forward to giving these teams the resources they need to stop things like this. It's why TikTok

said we don't have the resources to do this because their money is doing what? Being tied up in lawsuits against the federal government because Donald Trump got his feelings hurt because TikTok made him look like a moron in Tulsa, Oklahoma. So when these companies say, well, maybe I don't have the resources, sometimes they're not lying. It's hard to believe that Google doesn't have the resources to tackle this head on,

but I have more belief that Facebook does and they just choose not to care. And I know that's the fact. So we don't need to change the law that's already there to protect things like this from happening. These bad actors, be it jerks on TikTok or, you know, Mark Zuckerberg need to be stopped from allowing it to happen. You have one whole company that is the most recognizable social media brand in the whole world

who chooses not to care about their user because they're going to keep making us money. There's a problem, a big problem. And if this had happened on Instagram, maybe it'd be different. This has happened on Twitch. would definitely probably be different. Ronnie was an avid Twitch fan and was a streamer. But it didn't. It happened on the social platform

that is the highest valued one that there is. And they do not care. They pissed me off for the last time in their last comment when they said, our continual thoughts to Ronnie's friends and family. If that's not like the biggest blue, F middle finger I've ever seen. Yeah.

So I have had confirmation in the past week that Mark Zuckerberg and the teams at Facebook are aware of this situation, like really fundamentally aware of this and of me, which is terrifying, but also kind of badass at the same time because I'm one guy. And Ronnie was one guy too. Now, these companies, a lot of. lot of times, Facebook specifically, who has had a huge history of live stream suicides, just takes into account that, you know, here's this guy killed himself, his family's poor, they're from the poorest state and part of the poorest area of the nation.

They can sue us, but we already have lobbyists in their state government. and we have more money than God, so we'll just make sure that we can fight this out in court and they won't literally have enough money to continue the fight. So they don't care about the user. What I've seen from folks like TikTok and Google is that they actually do. Not just about Ronnie, but they do care about Ronnie.

They care about the effects that this has on other users because TikTok, you think TikTok came under the gun in a real hard way when that blew up on their platform, you bet it did so much so that their usage rate dropped so much that they had to do something. So what does that tell me, that the user has the power? We do. We always have the power in the relationship that we have with these companies.

Facebook is just a little bit differently because it's intertwined in everything that we do. and they're just taking for granted that we're not going to do anything, but they can stop thinking that way. Because while they have legislative protection in a lot of ways, we're still their users. And if the users have impact on other networks, then other networks can drive the conversation to force change with that company. Then we're just going to keep being as loud as possible

because that relationship already exists. what most people don't understand is there's already a system in place amongst all of the 10 biggest active social networks to share information. It might be crude, but it's already there. Because if you go on Reddit and post child porn, nine times out of 10, your IP is going to be banned on Facebook. That's not an accident. It's because these companies are actively sharing your information with these other networks because they don't want you doing this nonsense on their platform. You've got to look at it from a couple of ways. So Theo Bertram, really amazing guy from the UK that is one of the faces of TikTok UK,

who has worked for the government in the UK. He's just an insanely great guy. His thought is, if we can't do something about it, then there's a problem because the network already exists for change because they do this with other content. So why not have a conversation

about it? Agree that mental health matters to your users and do something to actively fix this problem because it's a problem that needs to be fixed. Legislation isn't going to fix. Amending Section 230 or ratifying or repealing Section 230

is not going to do anything. The president, like a freaking loon today, said to repeal 230. You oaf. Section 230 is what allows you to get on Twitter and spread the misinformation that you have for years about the coronavirus, about Barack Obama, about anything else he's run his mouth about. Section 230 has given him in the past that blanket to protect him.

you really want to remove that? No. Most average people who pick their phone up and log into Facebook and take some dumb quiz and post that they had a cheeseburger and it was great. Don't understand the law that protects them and the companies from doing so. So it's not that we need huge legislative change. Facebook needs to stop being the bad actor here because they are. They're no different in this scenario.

then Donald Trump saying that the coronavirus is no deadlier than the flu, and they're no different than people spreading child porn. They aren't. Because if you look at it from the standpoint that this is all content, then it changes the perspective a little bit. Is it odd to think about this person that I knew, that I've put my arm around, that I've loved on now as a form of content? Yeah, it's weird.

It's really, really, really, really weird. And having executives say, I'm sorry to try to classify your friend as this piece of content, but he created this content. And so how that content moves between platforms and how it is allowed to spread is no different than a lot of other harmful content out there. And these companies need to do a better job of handling that. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you want to speak on? I'm really curious as to what content creators, like you guys, what kind of questions that you have, that you obviously went looking for information about it, right? What questions do you have about Ronnie, about the content we created, about how your content lives on the internet?

Do you have that I can maybe help clear up for you and for your listeners? Because, you know, my gut says that you have listeners who create their own content, right? That's awesome. We do. And Ronnie McNutt, I'm telling you, man, if Ronnie McNutt was here to create content about this, he might would get fired from his job then because there would be so much content to create. But what questions do you have that maybe I can help clear up about this, the way that some of this works? Because I think that's the real next natural step in this, is that.

Unfortunately, this video and these images, they won't ever go away. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life. And to be really frank, I hold it right up there with holding my mom's hand as she died. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life was to say to Ronnie McNutt's mom, this content is forever. It is. it may pop up again in two days or two years or two decades. But because it was allowed to spread so far, so quickly,

it not just lives on social networks, but it lives in file sharing sites on hard drives. It won't ever go away. So for her to understand that her son, that she desperately, desperately, desperately, desperately, desperately wishes she still had. here with her. It's just going to be out there? Man, I don't know if I could do it. But I will, I will fight until my last breath to make sure these social networks that are such a major

part of our lives don't let this happen to someone else. Man, I'll do it. Because Ronnie isn't the first, right? Not at all. No, definitely not. And the thing about it is, is if Facebook didn't learn their lesson from Christchurch. Are they ever really going to learn their lesson at this point? Here's my thing. Yeah. Facebook allowed, and I will not give her name because it still exists and it shouldn't. Facebook allowed a girl who've been bullied at school to go home and to commit suicide live.

And for that video to remain public on her profile for 12 days. 12 days did that very young girl and her family have to publicly deal with that. Twelve days. I watched bot campaigns from Brazil to Russia run roughshod over my friend's very public Facebook account. I cannot imagine what her family dealt with. But here's the funny thing. In other situations, this company has intervened. So when they say on August 11th, oh, you know, Mark, he went to Congress and he testified that, yeah,

oh, during April to June, we had some issues, right, because of COVID-19, we weren't able to employ as many human reviewers. But, you know, during that time, we improved our AI technology. to detect things just like this. So they're saying that in June, they not only had better AI technology to detect instances like Ronnie's, but started to employ people again. What the hell happened?

What happened? Until Facebook is clear about what happened, these networks, I don't, mm, I'm all for them saying we're going to do better and I'll stand with them. And to say that I'm going to stand on the same platform as Google is huge, I think. But to stand on the same platform that Ronnie McNutt used as A, therapy, but B to create content just like we're doing right now is huge. But the platform that allowed this travesty to happen, refusing to answer questions, I can't abide by that.

And I'm not. Facebook and Twitter and someone else have already been summoned back to Congress for issues just like this. And does it mean we need to change the laws on the books? No. Facebook needs to stop being the bad actor here. Because just like the way we think about Google and your grandma thinks about, well, I went on the Google and I looked at, no, that's not the Internet. Google and the Internet are different. Facebook doesn't speak for every other company that's protected by Section 230.

they just need to be chastised, just like TikTok just got put under the thumb, right, by the federal government, because they made the president look like a buffoon. When's their turn? Because they're responsible here. They're responsible for a lot of things, but in this particular situation, they definitely are responsible here. So should you stop creating content? No, you shouldn't. But should you maybe have to follow more.

more guidelines. Yeah, maybe sometimes. When we used to publish our podcast to iTunes, you know, for us, it was really big when we picked up new podcast production folks. Like we were one of the very first podcasts to be picked up by Stitcher, which I thought was cool at the time. But you guys understand. Think about how long it took you to get your very first podcast on iTunes. A while, right? Like the first episode gets pushed out and then you're just waiting, right? You are waiting for a guy named Steve Wilson. to listen to your podcast. You were then.

Yeah, it took like three or four months, I think. That was the last platform that we were waiting for our, yeah, for our, for episodes to come out. And I think we had already done like, what, eight, eight or nine episodes at that point? Yeah, we were like a month or two in. Yeah. Yeah, you're waiting for one person.

And his name is Steve Wilson at that point in time to listen to your podcast, to approve it to go live on, on that platform. I have been told by multiple people that, that response I got on August the 31st at 1151 came from a person. Some real person had to send me that. It wasn't a response, an auto response. Real people are in charge of the reviewing of this content, just like your podcast, just like my podcast.

God, it took us forever to get one on. They just have to do better. They have to do better, not just for people like Ronnie's family, but they have to do better for other people too because I mean we all want improvement we want you know we we want things better and quicker and faster you know I'm still pissed that Amazon isn't back up to snuff with the way that they were before COVID-19 I miss my ordering it today getting it tomorrow quite a bit in rural Mississippi that's saying something right like I'm really really missing that but Facebook has to stop blaming COVID

Facebook has to stop blaming everybody but themselves because they're responsible. So if you have other questions, I would love to answer them for you and your listeners because I think it's really, really important to know that this is a murky situation. It really, really is. Yeah. When we found out about this and we did the episode originally, we were thinking of it along the lines of we're in a suicide epidemic. the internet exploits people who are suicidal or who commits suicide. Or even deaths in general.

It's just very exploitative. And we've seen it for the past almost two decades on the internet. And so when I found out about Ronnie, it brought back all these memories of what I saw growing up. And I was like, this is still going on. And this is like the worst I've ever seen it in COVID. So that was like my main focus. And suicide prevention is very important to me. So that's where.

my focus was, where I didn't really consider until you brought this question up, and I wasn't prepared for this question, is what does this mean for content creation or us as content creators going forward? So I think that's something that I'm going to have to really think on. And if our listeners have questions, if we could feel them to you at a later date, I would love to do that. but I guess as far as the time being's concerned, what would you advise content creators going forward to be aware of? If you, hmm, that's a good question. If you haven't read the community guidelines

to the social media networks that you frequent, do it. I mean, for real, do it. Why would you not? Yeah, it's easy to just sign up for a new account, be it a social media account, a dating account, a this account, of that. Like, we have all gotten so accustomed right to just scrolling through that Yula

to get to the content. Yeah, pressing I accept blindly. Yes. Most people don't even read it. No, no. And now, a great example are these two consoles coming out in the holiday season.

PlayStation and Xbox, Microsoft, they want you to just buy these digital-only consoles where there are no hard disks, no nothing. Every user agreement that you agree to, for digital content, pretty much says, yeah, I know that you're buying this content now, but at some point, I might be done supporting it.

And you may have given me 60 bucks, but I don't let you have to have access to it ever again. You don't own that content. This is huge for content creators because one of the real questions legally that Ronnie's case asks that, you know, I would love an answer to is, does that video belong to? Did it belong to Ronnie? Now, Ronnie hit publish, and he started his live stream. So when you guys know this as well, and other podcast creators out there know this as well, I think, depending on the way that you publish your podcast, you know, when we publish an episode of Just Us Geeks, it gets published to these platforms. And in the process, it's copyrighted.

I have it set up so that anything that we publish is copyrighted under Just Us Geeks, and I own the copyright to that because I'm the creator of it. So although Ronnie hit live, does he own that video content? So if he does, then I literally watched as that content transferred from him to his mother. So people took that content and put it on a couple of Gore websites to which they did what? Generated revenue. I was going to ask you about that. Click after click. Yep.

Yeah, because I had read, I believe it was on your page, the Reform for Ronnie page, that people were generating ad revenue and I was wondering how that was possible. It wasn't just them. It was YouTube. YouTube for God's sake. The initial website that hosted the content, they ripped it from the live stream, posted on their initial website. Then not just them, but YouTube and several other gore-based websites were hosting this content where advertisements were a huge part of that. YouTube was not only allowing reaction videos, which if lower-tier God, if you hear this, you come find me, buddy. You and I will have a face-to-face chat. You make fun of my friend in the worst moment, his life. That's fine. You want to make

advertisement dollars and, you know, send people to your store to buy crap of yours with your brand on it. We'll have an in-person chat. I'll fly to wherever you are. But the fact that, the fact that YouTube allowed the reaction videos and legitimately videos featuring the act, To be monetized is not only ridiculous, but asks the legal question, who owns that video? So if it's Ronnie in that content ownership was transferred to his mother, then shouldn't she be allowed to sue for the rights to that content in the revenue that's generated? Yeah, absolutely. But if it's not her and it's Facebook, then we have a sticky situation, right? Because wouldn't you think Facebook, who is money, money, money, money, money, wouldn't you think that they would want the revenue that's been generated from that?

You would think so. But they would also have to admit it's their content. And in doing so, they would have to admit ownership of the content and that they allowed the distribution to go on. There are lots of very, very sticky legal questions that this creates. A lot of gray area too because what if, you know, for example, the production of snuff or child pornography is now on Facebook. Are they going to then own up to that content? Do they own that now? Well, here's the thing.

If in the same video that Ronnie McNutt commits suicide, he'd also been sexually molesting children, you know, whoa, this is a different kind of content, right? Why? Why is it different? Oh, you already have steps in place to bury that. But this other aspect of the content you don't, would that content be allowed to be spread through private groups and messaging and then on into advertising? Would it? I mean, to be really frank, when I discovered that this content was on Pinterest for the love of God. I'm a community theater director.

I use Pinterest because if I'm working on a set and I'm looking for show ideas, I maybe want to figure out how someone did this better than I could. And maybe I want to put my ideas on there for other folks to figure it out. When I just randomly a week ago went to Pinterest and searched Ronnie McNutt, found tens of his death. I mean, Pinterest is very active in advertising. How long has that content been there? Who owns that content is very, very, very important. We're going to find out who does because you guys, other podcasters, Twitch streamers, content creators, you should be careful with the content that you create.

I'm going to go out and unabashedly finish out Just Us Geeks with seven really fun episodes or six really fun episodes and one really, really informative episode about Ronnie McNeum. nut in Section 230. But then, you know what I'm going to do? Because all of this has just made me realize that content creation is just in me. It's who I am. I'm just going to create something else. I'm going to keep creating.

But that's my content. Or is it? Just because you post a photo to Facebook doesn't mean that photo that circulating online belongs to you. Users have the power, right? We feed into the system which generates advertising dollars. So many people have been like, oh, you should go watch this social dilemma thing on Netflix. Netflix doesn't even mention Netflix in this documentary where they are just as guilty of this as Twitter and TikTok and Facebook.

Absolutely. Every time you publish something somewhere, if you are creating something and you want something out of it in the end, whether it's just personal pride or dollars, you should be very, very, very cautious when you hit that publish button. Because guess what? I mean, I'm not 40 years old, but I remember a time before the internet was really prevalent, right? The internet is still young, right? We're still in the early ages of the internet. We're still figuring out how it works.

And I got really, really pissed off the other day because some jerk on Twitter was like, or in one of the podcasting groups I'm in said something about Joe Ruff. Rogan and how he helped predominantly create podcasting. And I lost my mind. I hadn't said anything in that group in like three years. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Podcasting and content creation belongs to us. The little people.

Yes, did I have almost a million people download our ridiculous episode of 50 Shades of Gray where we reviewed it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Was that great? Yeah. Did I get advertisers because of it? Yeah.

but you know I'm not a part of a podcast network and I'll never want to be and because I love creating this content for myself because it's my outlet when I hit record even though I save a copy to my machine you should be very very careful where you publish where it goes you just really should you shouldn't content creators should continue to create content because just like my 70 year old dad on Facebook, creating his own content by reposting dumb things on Facebook. We are the ones in charge of these companies when it comes down to it. And they have told me essentially the exact same thing. As long as the users keep their thumb on what it is that they're doing,

we're going to dictate how these companies run. That's important. That's important for people like Ronnie who loved content creation. It's important for you guys who I think are doing great work. Creating a podcast isn't easy. No one thinks this is easy at all. God, it's why I stopped because I didn't have the time in my life to do this. And what we would do is we would record a podcast and I would send it off to my best friend who is an Emmy Award winning journalist who does a lot of this for a living.

And I still didn't have the time. It's hard. And so these platforms have given us the ability to use our voice. we have to keep using it because even though maybe your voice isn't doing what you want it to do now doesn't mean in three years it's not going to do i have more than one twitter account yes i have mine i have mine for my non-profit that i run and then i have this other one that i use to say some things that sometimes i really think and that's important it's important for these platforms to let us say what we want to say and create the content we want to create

but if at any point in time that platform says, uh, maybe I don't want you talking about politics on my platform, period anymore. Do you know what? They have the right to do so. You don't like it? Find another platform that lets you to do it. That's the bottom line.

So if these platforms are going to let you for now go carte blanche to do this, they have to be responsible for what comes out. They just do. Don't stop creating content. Just be aware every time you do so that it may be your last. It could be. Wow. We say it could be our last.

I mean, that's... It's tough, right? Yeah. Because what happens? What happens when Apple Podcast says, I don't like you anymore? You're not generating enough money for us. Well, hopefully you've got a backup. They're not going to do that, I don't believe.

But if they do, guess who's prerogative it is? theirs. Your content belongs to you. I'm a firm believer in that. Just like I'm a firm believer that you should be able to get on Facebook and say what you want to say and do what you want to do as long as what you're saying and doing doesn't violate Facebook's community guidelines. The real fact of the matter is Ronnie had already violated Facebook's community guidelines before I joined his live stream. He fired that weapon. That was a violation of their community guidelines. Had they intervened, my friend wouldn't be dead. I can say that because he was my friend and I know that. But the fact of the matter is, even if he had still done it after the camera

cut off, then the video wouldn't be spread, right? We have to look at content from a different standpoint now than I think we have in a long time because now we all have such great access to it. These platforms have given us folks like me and you guys a voice when maybe we didn't have one. It's why we started a podcast. We were running our mouths at a Buffalo Wild Wings for God's sake. No, I feel that me and Drewby here, like the first, I don't know what, six episodes. We were literally just ranting about things that were happening like in town. It wasn't even a true crime podcast then. It was just us just like running at the mouth. Yeah, and, you know, I'd never done anything like this before, and I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed it.

Well, and think about this. If WBZ Chicago doesn't have the platform to create serial and tell the story of a non-Syad, there is no true crime platform. That's true. Wow. Really isn't. Wow. You know, I mean, there were true crime podcasts, but I found you guys because I was able to search based on, I feel like I'm a good Google searcher and search engine searcher for a variety of ways.

But like these networks have given us this ability to be who we are, to speak and say the things that we are, a thing that Ronnie loved. But we have to hold them accountable when a line is crossed. For me personally, maybe it's because I'm so close to it. Do I think a line is crossed when there are review and reaction videos on YouTube to my friend committing suicide? Maybe do you include his voice in the gunshot? Well, if you do, then yeah, you definitely cross the line. But this guy that I just listened to earlier in the day, his podcast who had attempted suicide and Ronnie's story really affected him. I feel a little bit differently about his usage of that content.

the dude breaks down in the middle of the podcast and just weeps because my friend's story affected him for good. And, you know, I'm with you both. I think that people are inherently good. And I think that content creators are. As a content creator myself, be it in a podcast realm or a social network realm or live on our stage realm, I think it's important for us to be able to speak our minds. A lot of times, I'll also. say in any curtain speech I give to a show, especially our dramas. I love dramas. The thing I do best. Anton Chekhov said, it is the artist's job to create the questions, not answer them. The same is true on my stage that it is in the realm of content creation. Ronnie created a hell of a lot of questions that I think that maybe he would love that he created, but he did. And his mom and their

family, they're not up to answering these questions for a variety of reason. But Ronnie and I created questions together. And I'd love one more chance to argue with him and tell him how wrong he was about something. Oh, he got me to play D&D one time and it was terrible. Oh, God. It's so bad. Do you not like D&D? Or just it's not for me. It's just not for me. Fair enough. And he, sidebar, he loved Lost. He for so long, he tried to to get me to do a rewatch podcast about Lost with him, that I'm giving some serious thought to doing in his honor, but I just don't know if I can because it gets so bad there towards the end. But I love Damon Lindelof, so it's hard for me to say no.

But we have to keep creating content. And we have to know that as content creators and as users of platforms, that we have the power to change and dictate the way these platforms work. worked based on our needs. So while I have said, and I'll continue to say, I don't think that he would love the way that this has transpired for him. I really, really wish that he hadn't done that. And I really, really wish that he were here to argue with about this, but he's not. So I know that my job is to go create content that raises questions he would have asked and to just stick to my guns.

because you guys aren't saying that you're journalists. And I'm not saying that I'm a journalist. I have a best friend who is a legit journalist. He has Emmys for being a journalist. But oftentimes people with Emmys don't care about some very small things that we care about. But sometimes they do. Sometimes Peabody award-winning journalists care that this kid who's sitting in jail for a murder he didn't commit 15 years ago, his voice matters. Content creators cannot stop.

It cannot stop creating content being on Facebook or Twitch or YouTube or Snapchat or wherever. It just can't. Ronnie would hate that and I hate that. I don't want anybody to stop doing that. And I certainly don't want these platforms to stop what we're saying unless you're saying dumb things that should be stopped. You know, I mean, if what you're saying and doing goes above these guidelines, then yeah, by all me. censor me. And if I don't like it, I should go find a platform that allows me to say and do whatever. I don't know that the alt-right has a platform that's as popular as Facebook or Twitter or

Instagram, but if they do and you want to go say crazy stuff, go say it there. Content creators, you guys especially should really keep doing what you're doing because while there are some things that I have listened to about Ronnie's life that I've disagreed with, Ronnie put all kinds of content out in the world that he thought nobody would give a damn about. But he did it anyway. And if that's not the podcaster's creed, I don't know what it is. That really is. Because, you know, I went to a podcasting conference a couple years ago, and I got to meet Mark Marin. And I love Mark Marin. I think Mark Marin has like maybe the best interview style of anybody doing like any kind of one-on-one podcasts. Nobody can do it like Marin. Mark Marin sat across the table from a

sitting president and did not flinch in his own garage, which I think is awesome. But like, I think that normal people have stories to tell. And I think we should tell them. I will not stop telling Ronnie Mnitnutt's story until people get the whole picture. Was he a weird guy? Yeah. Oh, man. Ronnie was a weirdo.

I loved him for it. It's why I liked him. But we have all those people in our lives, right? Sometimes that's us. You ask me about David Lynch. We're doing a whole podcast about it. And that's fine with me. Because David Lynch is a person who has impacted everything I do with my life.

On my stage right now is the Red Room from Twin Peaks. I saw that. And we about to do the Rocky Horror Show. I'm telling you, about to blow it up, right? Like, David Lynch has had a profound impact on my life. Yeah. When you messaged me, I went to your page. I'm like, that's the Red Room.

And I noticed that immediately. Mm-hmm. It's great. and the curtain's going to open. It's not going to look like that. But have I already devised a way to do the Rocky Horror show with the characters from Twin Peaks? Yeah, you betcha.

Maybe next year. We should keep creating content. We should. But there is a line. And if your content provider chooses to change that line for you, then I encourage you to find another line. in another platform. Because at the end of it,

if Apple podcast and Stitcher and Spotify and all these places said, eh, we don't want to run your podcast on our platform, guess what I still got? Just Usgeeks.com, my own platform that I pay for. And I can still keep producing my content. So content creators should not ever stop creating content.

If you're out there and you're on the, the verge of starting a podcast, if you've thought about it, you want to do something creative, man, you contact me and I'll introduce you to my friend Ronnie, who created so much great content that thank God, some of this stuff has been able to die down from that I can go back through and look for and find some really awesome things that he created. And I'll introduce you to him who would just create content for the fun of it and you didn't care who heard.

Do it. Create that content. but know that at some point if these platforms allow us to do this change you can change with them or not it's up to you but in this particular situation bad actors shouldn't be allowed to dictate what other platforms do or have to do they just shouldn't so i'm not i'm not a fan of censorship but certainly not a fan of people using my friend or people like my friend as a weapon to harm others. I've missed podcasting.

This is like the best back and forth conversation I've had in a while because all the journalists I've spoken to have been, here's a definite list of questions I'm going to ask you and a lot of them are the same over and over. And that's not a conversation. content creation oftentimes is about conversation right and you shouldn't have to be joe rogan or jenna fisher to have a conversation about something that you love and i love jennar fisher god if she heard this and heard me say that i'd be so i'd feel so scorned my like she's my hall

pass if if i could abscond with someone it would be but she has pam i don't care what she says but, you know, we have to keep doing what we're doing because the brilliant thing about the way that the internet has expanded and the way that technology has expanded is that more people just like us and like my friend Ronnie McNutt have found this is our safe haven. Where even if just your mom listens to your podcast, you have a voice. Ronnie's voice I have seen and it's been brilliant and I've tried to remind his family

his voice is going to go on for a long, long time. I've seen my friend dictate the sale of a major social network. It's insane.

Ronnie's voice is going to go on for a long, long time. And my one voice has impacted huge corporations, your voice matters. Don't you dare ever think that your podcast or your content doesn't matter anything. Don't do it. I wish that there had been something for me about 110 episodes into the Just Uskeeks podcast.

Outside of Ronnie McNutt that said, we can't stop. Luckily, I had Ronnie McNutt that said, this is good. We can't stop. We can't stop. can't stop. Do it, do it, do it. What we're doing matters. Create that content. Say the things you want to say and expand who we all are because I love audiobooks. I think they're great, but I'm going to download a podcast and listen to it. No matter who you are or what network or platform you're on, that's how I found you guys. You guys are great. I appreciate that.

You are. You're great. And, you know, I mean, subscribed in everything. I can't, I can't, you know, promote you enough. You guys are great. You're great because you're doing this. If you stop and you have a great reason for stopping, that's one thing. But you should never, ever, ever stop creating content because you think no one's listening. Because they are. Unfortunately, I've seen how content works and how it travels.

And it is mind-boggling to watch this one small video. a clip of a very much larger video, travel from where you are to South America, to Africa, to Australia, to Japan, to Europe, to right back to your front door. It's incredible. The local news here was the last one on this. That's hilarious to me. And I had to rewrite their article for them. But your voice in the way that you produce. it and create it matters. Do not ever stop creating content. If anything Ronnie has left me, it's that, you know, I've gotten too relaxed and how I've used my voice. And I'm lucky I live in a town where my voice is influential. My wife, she works for tourism in our town. Our voice is

influential. I have the voice of regional representatives, of state representatives. I know some people in our national government, but I know that my voice has only gotten to this point recently. I got totally blindsided the other day on my conference call with TikTok when a guy was like, oh my God, I listened to that 50 Shades of Grey podcast. Holy crap, I knew your voice was familiar. Wow. Your content matters. Don't ever stop, be it about true crime or magic the gathering or Dungeons and Dragons or Legos or coffee or bourbon or classic playwriting or history or candles, your podcast matters. I felt like Donald Trump, person camera, TV.

I felt like it right then. Because I literally looked at everything in my office right then, but your voice matters. And that's the beauty of content and content creation. You don't like the way that your content publisher is trading you, then move. Do it, move, because you should not ever stop creating content because someone else put some restriction on you. Don't do it. You have a problem with the way that they're all treating you. You contact me.

I'll figure out a work around for you. But don't ever stop because I never listened to Ronnie's theology podcast that he was creating with this guy because I've moved on from the religious part of my life. But he had the freedom to do it. And I might have thought it was stupid or didn't impact who I was. But man, hearing him so passionate about what he was talking about, matters to me. I think another important thing is that now when we die, it's different than when people died 10 years ago. we were not uploading our brains into some worldwide network or anything like the good place my mom she got diagnosed with cancer quite out of the blue a couple years ago and in 30 days

she was gone and as I stood in her hospital room a couple of days before she passed away I held her phone and I realized oh oh, here's this great record of who she was. And it wasn't after she was gone that I went back and looked at some things. And I realized that I could look at the conversations that she had with my dad and that she had with me and she had with people about me, which may not have always been great. But when you're gone now, you leave this digital trail of who you were, be it devices. or Facebook posts or YouTube content, the things that you do and create

are more powerful and impactful now than ever before. One of the things I love about my job is that I get to pick and choose the content that we produce. And I'm a Shakespeare guy. I like Shakespeare. And we did our very first ever online production

in the summer, which was Shakespeare, Hamlet. and I was fortunate enough to get to be Hamlet. Shakespeare has stood the test of time when a lot of people haven't. And his words are important and impactful. But they're not any more important and impactful than other writers of the time. Now you get the chance to say things and create content on the same level as people who think that they're really more important than you when they're not. do it. Please, please, please do it. If you've seen Ronnie's video and you've been impacted

and you are a content creator, then go create content. If you've thought about it, do it. Go create content. Engage with other content creators. Share your voice because it matters. If you have mental health problems or issues, please, please, please get help. If the only access you have to that is creating content, then you create all the content you want, and I guarantee you I'll be a listener. Ronnie's voice that he thought was very, very, very, very small, never was. And now we see that it's not small at all. The content you create lasts. forever. So create it. I think that's a really, really excellent message to end this on. Wow. I really commend all that

you're doing and I really appreciate you giving us your time to do this and to set the record straight on things. No, that's worth it because if I thought that my friend had value while he was a part of who I was and what we were doing together, then I have to honor that after he's gone and I'll keep doing that. I'll keep telling his story for as long as I can because there are millions of people right around you just like Ronnie and they matter. Do I respect his choice on a human level? Yeah. I wish it was different. Yeah. Do I wish he would have answered my phone call? Yeah, because I could have said balls and he probably would have laughed and maybe things would have been different, but he didn't. And now his story is even more important than it was

before, because Ronnie is a lot like people who put headphones on and earbuds in and commute to work and sit at their desks and tune out their family with podcast. He was. And even his last words matter. All of his words do. And if his do, than yours do too.