The Misery Machine - The Case of Joel Parks

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

This week, Drewby and Yergy head to Florida to discuss the case of Joel Parks, a 30-year-old disabled man who was thriving in his community. That was until his grandmother, 87-year-old Lillian Parks, decided that Joel was better off dead than alive... all because he was disabled.Support Our Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/themiserymachine⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠PayPal: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.paypal.me/themiserymachine⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join Our Facebook Group: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://t.co/DeSZIIMgXs?amp=1⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram: miserymachinepodcastTwitter: misery_podcastDiscord: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/kCCzjZM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠#themiserymachine #podcast #truecrimeSource Materials:https://disability-memorial.org/joel-parkshttps://www.addictioncenter.com/news/2019/10/florida-woman-kills-disabled-grandson-overdose/https://www.bradenton.com/news/local/crime/article235810342.htmlhttps://www.wfla.com/news/local-news/manatee-county/police-bradenton-woman-purposely-gave-grandson-drugs-to-overdose-charged-with-second-degree-murder/https://www.mysuncoast.com/2019/09/26/family-speaks-out-after-police-say-bradenton-disabled-man-is-murdered-by-grandmother/https://www.tampabay28.com/news/region-sarasota-manatee/grandma-charged-with-second-degree-murderhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahkim/2019/09/26/87-year-old-murdered-disabled-grandson/https://www.fox13news.com/news/miracle-league-baseball-community-mourns-one-of-its-ownhttps://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article235455952.htmlhttps://nypost.com/2019/09/24/grandmother-admits-to-killing-disabled-grandson-with-drug-overdose-cops/https://www.wkrn.com/news/florida-woman-says-she-killed-disabled-grandson-by-overdose-fearing-no-one-would-care-for-him-after-she-died/https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/bradenton/name/joel-parks-obituary?id=9233313https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc-YpMxCerA&t=37shttps://www.facebook.com/Ilovemykids07081013161820https://www.facebook.com/toshia.fretzhttps://www.facebook.com/JAFretz1https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/media-coverage-of-the-murder-of-people-with-disabilities-by-their-caregivers/

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Send help. Rated R. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. Content warning. This video is about a sensitive topic involving loss of life. We've removed any graphic content to comply with YouTube's guidelines. We aim to provide informative, factual journalism on a tragic event in the public interest that is not dismiss its seriousness. All clips are used under the doctrine of fair use for news reporting and analysis.

Joel David Parks Jr. was born on February 17, 1989 in Bradenton, Florida, to parents Joel Parks, Sr. in Toshu. Fretz. Joel had a sister name Yvonne, whom he called Bonnie, who described him as positive and full of energy. Friends and family were called his constant smile and the strong hugs he gave. Within the family, he was affectionately called Bubby. When he was four years old, Joel's parents divorced and at some point during Joel's life, his father, Joel Sr., passed away. His mother, Toshia, would later remarry a man named James Fretz. However, before she remarried, Tashi was struggling to take care of her children, so custody shifted to their grandmother,

61-year-old Lillian Parks. From that point on, Lillian raised Joel and his sister, dedicating her time and energy to their well-being. She had no criminal history whatsoever. Public records also confirmed she had once worked as a nurse, holding a license in Tennessee between 1977 and 1983. This helped her in providing consistent care as Joel lived with a cognitive disability. Some reports attribute it to autism, while others suggest it may have been caused by a brain injured from a car accident during his infancy.

Regardless of the cause, Joel remained physically healthy but needed lifelong support due to his developmental delays. Joel had a bright personality and attended the Easter Seals of Southwest Florida's Day program. Per their agency's website, Easter Seals empowers people to live independent full lives. Our national affiliate network provides essential, services to children and adults with disabilities, older adults, veterans, and their families. According to the CEO of Easter Seals, Tom Waters, Joel greeted everybody warmly, often calling out high friend whenever he saw someone. He explained that, Joel was one of the happiest guys

that you could ever meet. He was also one of the strongest hugers that you would ever meet. He would come up to you and give you that bear hug and you knew you had been hugged. According to a Facebook post by a man named Denny Miller, Joel would volunteer at the man players, which is a local performing arts organization and would never leave the building without hugging every staff member. Joel loved baseball. He also played in the Miracle League and earned the nickname Home Run Joel from his teammates. Coaches recalled how he kept improving as a player and he seemed proud of his own progress. We're into Jordan Jones, the board chair of the Miracle League of Minnesota. On the field, he was probably when you saw him the happiest. He always had a

smile on his face. What was great about Joel was you always saw him getting progressively better as an athlete, and I think he knew that as well. By all accounts, Joel was active in his community, was loved by many, many people, and was thriving in his adult years. As Joel grew older, state funding allowed him to move into a group home designed for adults with disabilities. These facilities provided structure, help with daily needs, and opportunities for independence while ensuring residents had supervision and care. He was able to handle some tasks by himself, like holding a part-time job and taking care of his basic needs. Still, he required daily support. His grandmother Lillian, now in her 70s, could no longer provide full-time care because of her own

health issues. Joel stayed at the group home during the week, but spent weekends with Lillian. His mother's stepfather and sister at the time lived in Ohio. According to Lillian, Joel disliked living in this group home, often wandered off and depended on her for daily medication. In September of 2019, Lillian was scheduled for hernia surgery and was expected to recover in a nursing home. Knowing she couldn't care for Joel during that period, she asked her granddaughter Yvonne to travel from Ohio to Bradenton, Florida to help out. Yvonne arrived at the Carlton Arms apartment sometime around mid-September. Lillian instructed her to clear out most of the apartment, even her couch and car leaving only the bedroom furniture.

That evening, Yvonne spent time with her grandmother and Joel before going out with friends. She left, Joel asked her if he would see her later and exchanged I love use with her. Joel often spent weekends helping out at a local convenience store near his grandmother's home, and on the morning of September 21st, he was seen there in good spirits before heading back to the apartment. He was supposed to be on the field playing baseball that night, but his grandmother had other plans for him. Avon spent that day with her boyfriend and friends. She returned to Lillian's apartment. She saw Joel asleep in a recliner with a TV on while her grandmother rested nearby.

Nothing seemed unusual to her, so she went to bed. Next morning at around 8 a.m., she saw Joel still in the recliner with a blanket covering him. She accidentally bumped the chair but thought he was just sleeping in. Hours passed, and Joel never moved. Yvonne grew concerned and questioned Lillian. and she was told he had stayed up late watching movies. By noon that day, Yvonne checked on him again. Joel had not shifted at all.

And when she looked closer, it appeared that he was not breathing. She quickly alerted Lillian, who responded, that's because he's not. Shocked, Yvonne pressed her for clarity, and Lillian told her, oh, I'm doing us both. We're going together. Von believes...

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Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. Investment management and advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. Investing involves risk to principle regardless of the strategy used. Task performance does not guarantee future results. She saw a pill in her grandmother's mouth as she said this. Horrified. She left and called the police. When an ambulance pulled up outside of Lillian's apartment, neighbors assumed it was for the grandmother, given her age. Instead, they were stunned to learn the call was for Joel. When officers arrived, Joel was still in the recliner, lifeless, while Lillian remained in a bed nearby.

30-year-old Joel was pronounced dead at the scene, and it appeared he had been gone for several hours. There were no signs of physical injury, and nothing pointed to a violent struggle. Police first spoke with Yvonne who explained that she had come to Florida to help clean out her grandmother's apartment. Officers then spoke with 87-year-old Lillian who remained in bed during questioning. She told the officers, well, he's needed help his whole life and has been living in a home. But he doesn't do well there. He walks around outside here and I have to go find him. I've been taking care of him and giving him his medication every day.

She admitted that around noon the day before, she gave Joel an unknown amount of prescription pain medication, then took some pills herself. She told police she had been told that she had about five months left to live and did not want Joel to suffer alone after her death, telling them, I want him to be with me when I go, so I put him to sleep and, and then I'll go to sleep too. I wanted him to go to sleep, and now he's asleep. Lillian said she wanted him to be in heaven with her and had written letters to family members, even leaving behind $1,500 to cover cremation costs for the both of them. With her health failing, she did not want to spend her final months in a nursing home. She claimed her intention was for Joel to go to sleep so that he could remain with her when she eventually passed.

We're here to discuss the case from Sunday afternoon. Around noon, Bradenton police responded to the 5,100 block of Riverfront Drive in Bradenton. is an apartment complex for the report of a deceased individual. Upon arrival, officers found 30-year-old Joel Parks deceased in the residence. Joel's grandmother, 87-year-old Lillian Parks, who is his part-time caretaker, made several concerning remarks, spontaneous remarks to the officers that she had purposely overdosed him with the intent of taking his life. She was concerned about her medical condition and was worried about who would be caring for him in the event that she passed away. Gillian currently is in protective medical custody until she's released by a doctor.

And I will like to note that Joel is a disabled adult, unable to care for himself. Joel resided in a group home throughout the week and then would stay with Gillian on the weekends. Joel's parents, his father is deceased, his mother is estranged. All right, everyone. Welcome to Arco Rewards Orientation. I'm Hannah. Whoa. Is everything okay?

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Oh, that's just piggy. He gets excited when we talk about rewards. Savings of up to $1 per gallon redeemable. 20 rewards dollars in your loyalty account at participating locations terms and conditions apply and he was discovered by his sister so at this point in time charges are pending we are working with our partners at the state attorney's office to ensure that Gillian parks the proper charges are filed and that she will be taken into custody when she is released from medical care are any questions what did she use to overdose there's a lot of things still pending it's a

very active investigation at this point we're waiting on some results One of those being toxicology results. This is a difficult case for our detectives, a difficult case for our agency. Partly, you feel bad for an individual who feels that the only option is to take another human being's life because you're so worried about their care after you're gone. But on the other hand, this is a process where it was thought out, it was planned, and she took a human life. So we are looking at it from a standpoint of she took a human life, and we need to do everything we can to bring justice to his family and his friends. Ms. Parks, and I'd like to clarify, her name is Lillian, not Jillian.

I said Jillian earlier, it's Lillian. Ms. Parks is 87 years old. She's in jail? No, she's currently in a secure medical facility. There is no threat to the public until she is released by the doctor until then we will, at that point then we will move forward with charging her. You never know what Ms. Parks or a family member, somebody may have said something, somebody knows something, we always put that out there.

There's always more to a case, and if anybody knows anything, of course we put that offer out. They can, the cash reward is through crime stoppers. One of our partners, Manse County Crime Stoppers. You're eligible. If you call in anonymously, you're able to, and the tip pans out, you're able to be eligible for a cash reward. What's next to the investigation? Next to the investigation is the continuing with the toxicology reports, the medical examiner investigation, and of course moving forward with the state and any charges that we're moving forward with as soon as she's released from that doctor's care. It was a sister who found Mr. Park's deceased when he had.

went to check on him, she found him deceased and called us. Did she describe our behavior in that moment? What would she do? That's still part of the investigation. Interviews are still ongoing today. We're still meeting with family members as of today and plenty for the remainder of this week. Currently we are working, again, we're working with state attorney. So we are, we are gearing towards second-degree murder. In this case, you never know totally what someone is thinking. In this case, I don't know if she's thinking about the well-being of her grandson or if she's thinking about herself. about herself. I can't answer that question. What we have to look at is the total circumstances,

everything surrounding it. And in this case, we can arrive and say that this is a premeditated act where, again, she took the life of another human being. So we take all the other factors out of it. At the end of the day, she took the life of Joel Parks. Thank you very much. Following her statements, Lillian was taken to the Manatee Memorial Hospital under the Baker Act, which is a Florida law that permits involuntary hospitalization for those who pose a danger to themselves or others. A search of her apartment revealed a prescription bottle in her name filled on September 17th with 120 pills. Only two of those pills remained. Investors concluded that Joel had likely been given a fatal dose. Multiple letters addressed to family were also recovered.

Each contained explanations and instructions about what she did. Police noted that Joel's relationship with his mother had been described by Lillian as a strange, but soon thereafter, Tasha and her then-husband James pushed back. They denied any estrangement and insisted they had always been present in Joel's life. In fact, they said they were ready to take him in and been preparing for Yvonne to bring him back to Ohio. They said if that didn't happen, Tasha herself would have come to collect him. Also became clear that Lillian had never set up any formal guardianship arrangements for Joel despite her advanced age and health issues.

She could have legally transferred responsibility to a family member, but she chose not to. Vaughn later reflected that her grandmother likely already knew her time was limited when she asked her to come help clean the apartment. She believed Lillian had been weighing two paths, either undergo hernia surgery, stay in a nursing home, and trust that Joel would be taken to Ohio or do what she ultimately chose to do. In the end, however, she justified it. She chose the latter. Yvonne expressed disbelief at her grandmother's choice, pointing out that there were plenty of relatives willing and perfectly able to care for Joel. She said it was wrong for Lillian to insist that there were no other alternatives.

Joel also had state funding. Drew would have guaranteed that he was cared for even after Lillian died. There's not a shred of logic behind this twisted idea of mercy that Lillian had for Joel's murder. I was headed out to the front door. He goes, fine, I see you later. I said, yes, W. I said, we'll see you later. I said, I love you. He goes, I love you too.

And that was the last time I'd seen him a lot. Yvonne Park says she spent the day out with her boyfriend and friends. She got back to her grandmother's apartment's late Saturday night, saw Lillian Parks and Joel sleeping with the TV on and thought nothing of it. But at noon the next day, she found it strange to find Joel still asleep. As the grandson said, it doesn't look like he's breathing. And that's when she said, clear is day because he's not. And I said, what do you mean he's not?

Like, what are you talking about? She goes, oh, I'm doing us both and we're going together. Yvonne says Lillian had a plan. She had asked Yvonne to come to Bradenton to clean out the apartment and take Joel back to Ohio with her. Because she wasn't sure if she was going to commit or if she was going to go through with having the hynal hernia surgery and go to a nursing home afterwards. Bradenton police say Lillian told them she intentionally overdosed Joel because she'd be dying soon and there was no one left to take care of him when she was gone. You know, for her to say he was estranged from his mother is a big lie. I have never been estranged from my children by choice.

I'd have come and gotten Joel. She had planned two weeks prior to that that she was going to let Bonnie come and take him back to Ohio. The family says Joel's death was unnecessary and premeditated, and now this voicemail is the only thing they have left of their bubby. Hello you. Goodbye. She took my mother for no reason and to say that there was no options. That's the only way she knew how to take care of. That's crap.

He lit up the room when he walked in the door. That bright star was 30 year old Joel Parks. His family called him Bubby. He goes, bye, I love you. I'll see you later. I said I love you too, Bubby. I'll see you later. And that was the last time I seen him.

The next day, Joel's sister was back at her grandmother's home at the Carlton Arms apartment in Bradenton, where Joel lived part of the time. Yvonne says that's when she noticed Joel slumped over and not looking right. And I was like, Grams, it doesn't look like he's breathing. She said because he's not with kind of like a little snicker in it. What do you mean he's not? What do you mean he's not breathing?

Like what are you talking about? Oh, I'm doing us both in. We're going together. 87 year old Lillian Parks told police that she purposefully overdosed and killed her grandson because she would not be able to care for him any longer because of her declining health. His life was snuffed out for nothing. Joel's family is devastated. His mother, Tasha, says Lillian tried to keep her out of Joel's life. For her to sit there and just take it not just away from me, but his siblings, the world that he touched. Police say Lillian Parks was taken to a medical facility because of her physical condition. They say when she's released, she'll be charged with second degree murder.

The family says that's not enough. It was all premeditated. His life was cut way too short. Nothing like this should have ever happened to him. Captain Brian Thayer's described the case as complicated for detectives because on one side, they saw an elderly woman worried about her grandson's future care. And on the other hand, they could not ignore the fact that she intentionally ended his life. He emphasized that the department's responsibility was to look at the situation as a whole

and to uphold Joel's rights as the victim. Regardless of Lillian's age or Joel's disability, a life had been taken. He was murdered, and she acted on her own. Cases where caregivers murdered disabled dependents are not rare. While no national database exists, research shows that philicide is more common among children with disabilities than those without.

Now, maybe hearing that doesn't surprise you, but what might surprise you to hear is that, according to research done by the Routerman Family Foundation, it's estimated that killings of disabled individuals by a family member or caregiver happen about once a week, though. The true number is believed to be higher because many casers are not reported or the victim's disability is never disclosed. Think about that for a second. Each week, at least one disabled person is murdered by someone who is supposed to love and care for them. When such cases go to trial, courts often show leniency. The culprits may receive lighter sentences than other murderers

because juries sometimes accept hardship as a defense, though advocates for justice strongly reject this framing. History reflects how people with disabilities have long been devalued. In World War II Germany, around 200,000 disabled individuals were killed between 1940 and 1945, with medical doctors overseeing the executions. In the United States, similar discriminations Many mandatory views existed. In 1927, Supreme Court ruling upheld sterilization, and roughly 65,000 disabled Americans were forcibly sterilized across 30 states. This wasn't even 100 years ago. These historical attitudes still influence present-day ideas of so-called mercy killings.

Advocates warn that a justice system built on such biases often delays or weakens justice for disabled victims. Lack of resources also plays a role. Adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities face limited care options once they leave the school system. Without a national support framework, many rely solely on family members, most of whom are not equipped to provide long-term care. The deinstitutionalization movement has promoted community integration,

but tragedies like Joel's death highlight gaps in available services and oversight. After being discharged from the hospital, 12 days after being admitted, Lillian was taken into custody at the Manatee County Jail and was charged with second-degree murder awaiting trial. Her case was later reduced to manslaughter. This decision drew further frustration

from Joel's family, who argued that the act had been planned for weeks and should have counted his first-degree murder. But the trial never happened. On January 1st, 2020, a little over three months after Joel's murder, Lillian Parks died.

With her passing, the case effectively ended. Authorities did not release Joel's autopsy results, nor were the letters Lillian left behind ever made public. The family did not speak further, and no obituary for Lillian appeared after her death. What remained were unanswered questions. No official details came out about Joel's final moments, and nothing more was said about Lillian's writings. The silence from her relatives suggested the deeper pain her actions had caused.

leaving Joel's death as the final chapter in a case that closed without resolution in court. After his death, the community that surrounded him was devastated. Leaders at Easter Seals, along with many in Joel's community, described the loss as deeply painful. They offered condolences to his family while also choosing to honor Joel by celebrating the happiness he brought to everybody who knew him. According to CEO Tom Waters, the Easter Seals family is in mourning, the disabilities community, is in mourning. Lots of people are in mourning because everything in this situation is tragic. We want to express our condolences because as we mourn, I know they do, but we're celebrating him. We're celebrating the life that he had and the life he shared with us.

Jordan Jones of the Miracle League shared that, I think our whole entire community has been shook by this. We know he may be in a better place, but it's just not something anybody saw coming. Joel's celebration of life was held on Thursday, October 3rd, 2019 at the Salvation Army on Albi Farm Road in Venice, Florida. On his online obituary, friends that knew him from Chase Bank remembered his smile and hugs, writing how much they would miss him. Others left messages of condolence, wishing him peace. One caregiver shared how special it had been to know him, recalling his bright smile in their last conversation at a neighborhood Walmart. She described it as an honor to have cared for him and said he would always be. be remembered. Now his loved ones are left only with memories and a voicemail from Joel telling

his mother, I love you. So where does this leave us? I think many people might hear a story like this and recognize that it is clearly tragic, but include that something like this must be rare, chalked up to one of those senseless acts of violence that nobody could have prevented. And sure, I'm not here to definitively say that there was a way to prevent Joel's murder, but when I am here to ask you is how many of you knew the statistic that one disabled person is killed each week by a parent or caregiver. How many of us live our lives completely unaware of something so heinous quietly happening week after week? I'm not asking you to feel guilty for not knowing that, but I'm highlighting that clearly a change needs to be made here because the result of that is

another murder every week that could have been prevented. And knowing that some of these individuals are unable to advocate for themselves, it makes this all the more dire that we have to do something. I wish I could lay out a perfect step-by-step solution to fixing this. But what I do know, the average person's blind spot

around the frequency of murders of disabled individuals, the most important thing that we can all do is open our eyes. Okay, so this case really pissed me off, and I know we've done a lot of cases that were far more brutal than this. But there's specific things about this that really enraged me.

And one of my first thoughts was when I was working for a daycare, when I was fresh out of high school, I worked with many children that had intellectual and developmental disabilities. And when I would tell people about that, not 100% of the time, but I would get the response of, oh, my God, those poor kids, they must be suffering. and it's like, what are you talking about? There's this idea in so many people's minds

that disabled people constantly walk around in a perpetual state of pain and suffering. And it just isn't true. I mean, at least not for the vast majority. I'm sure there's people in pain. Of course there are, but the idea that 100% of them... Right, right, right. I just wanted to specify that.

Which leads to this idea, and we can talk about what the mental state of this grandmother was, but this idea is like, oh, he'll be in a better place. You know, and when I hear, when you hear about disabled people passing, you'll hear people make comments like, oh, well, they're themselves in heaven now. What does that mean they're themselves? Or they have all their faculties or they have their legs back. Like, I've heard comments like this.

They're running free with Jesus now. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I know that when certain people say this, it's not coming from a place of malice. But look at the foundation this sets to have ideas that Joel Parks is better off dead than living a life that he had where he was clearly thriving. Right. Like he had a community. He was active in that theater group. He volunteered. He was an athlete. He's an athlete who, and from what I understand, a pretty good athlete too. Yeah. He was very loved by his community.

And there was plenty of people who were willing to take him and take care of him and he had state funding. I just, and this is what's hard for me is that so many news outlets and even the police had a hard time saying the word murder. And I want people to think about this. if this was a child and a grandmother poisoned them to death, there is no way anybody would have a hard time saying murder. They would label it murder. And I believe she got, she was charged with second degree or they were going to charge her with second degree

before she ended up dying in jail. I think it dropped down a manslaughter. Even worse. Even worse. Like this is premeditated first degree murder. And so if this was a child that this was done, there was no way that grandmother wouldn't get first degree, even with her advanced age. There's like a lot of things like I have to say to this.

I mean, essentially what she was performing was eugenics. Yes. Yep. Essentially what was going on. 100%. And like attitudes like this against disabled people, I don't even know how I want to even like broach this topic. But one that comes to mind for me is. the whole issue around like right to die and how on one hand you have a lot of supporters for it.

But on the other hand, the disabled community finds it to be eugenics. And I didn't understand that for the longest time. Just to give a little bit of backgrounds, I essentially watched my grandmother die from stage four cancer. She didn't know she had it. It was very quick. Everything happened in under a month. And after they had her on a lot of the. medications and she started to really like lose her faculties she honestly thought they were going

to give her a pill to kill her so she didn't have to go through this anymore she honestly thought that the point where she started getting even more and more out of her faculties and she was asking us to kill her yeah so from that moment on i became a big supporter of your right when your terminal to be able to get the prescribed medication to do whatever you need to do to not be suffering. However, a lot of my friends, specifically one friends, who actually is a long-time listener, who has cerebral palsy, was very much against all of this. And it took a little bit for me to figure it out, but it's cases like Joles that are the reason why a lot of folks with disabilities don't want that to happen. So when we have incidents where essentially people are murdering disabled

people because they don't think they have their right to live or they're better off not living. It's just echoing what everybody is thinking. Yeah. So just to properly package this. In the disabled communities. Yeah. Yeah. So like in a perfect world, if somebody is terminal and wants to die, obviously I don't think

there's many people that would just say to them, no, you can't. However, what your friend with cerebral palsy, his concern was is, and why he's opposed to to write to die is because if you start sending that groundwork, it'd be, it caused the slippery slope that now insurance companies might start pushing things a certain way if you have certain diagnoses. And those diagnoses might not be limited to stage four cancer. He was worried, okay, maybe this starts getting extended to cerebral palsy and other disabilities that a person can live with.

Yes. And thank you for packaging that properly for me because like I still like, I know this is a sensitive topic. 13 years later, I have a hard time talking about it. Like this is, this is obviously a sensitive topic. Yeah. And it requires a lot of nuance. But when you told me about about your friend and his viewpoints, like I had never

considered that before. And when we were doing Joel's case and you brought that up, I was just like, oh my God, you know, that this is the, the mentality. the grandmother had is the same type of people that like, you know, I ran into when I was working with disabled children. And you just, you see the shadows of it everywhere. You see the reflections of it. That this idea that it boils down to that disabled people are in a constant state of suffering and would be better off dead. And that is a very disgusting and frightening.

belief when you really think about it. Right, because it's a slippery slope. Like, what then is, uh, what then is disabled? Does it then like go into like those of us with depression and anxiety and like, like how far does that go before you end up in a crazy situation? What disabilities are okay now to live with and what aren't? Like I am terrified of that reality where all of a sudden there's a picking and choosing based on that. Right.

And I'm not talking about like those who are interested in that right who choose these options. Because I know in Europe specifically in the Netherlands that is legal. I think it's clear. I'm talking about the government. Yeah. I'm talking about the government and the insurance companies being like no. Yeah, no. I think we've made it pretty clear that we're talking about people have it be.

being pushed towards a certain way against their will. And obviously this is a, this is almost a completely other video. And I would want to talk with people in the disabled community like more about this. If we were to do a video on this. And if this is something you want us to do a video on, like leave us comment below if we get enough interest. Like maybe we can do an interview with your friend and like dive deeper into this. That's something I'm sure he actually would appreciate because he is an activist. Yeah, no, for sure.

I would want those voices that are... Yeah, and I fully understand this seems like a whole bunch of information vomit, but like this was a lot of thoughts we had after the fact that we just didn't know how to fit in. It's made us very emotional. And in this one murder, you saw so many problems. And yeah, we highlighted before about the one disabled person is murdered every week by a parent or caregiver. I didn't even know that. Yeah.

Did not even know that until... Like, I knew it was high. I knew it was high. But I didn't know it was that high. that's horrifying. If most people don't know that, the first step, like I don't have a plan to fix this, like I said in the video, but the first step has to be awareness. So this is the least we can do at this point. And I don't really know what to go, what to do from there. But like this just, it has been a few days since we recorded this and I haven't stopped thinking about it.

I don't know if there's anything else you want to say. I know that some people, I've read in the comments people saying that Lillian, she was 87 years old in the time that she murdered Joel. And does she have dementia? Was she in the right frame of mind? At an age like that, it is, I don't think it's unlikely to say, oh, she could have dementia. Like, I think that that's obviously possible. But I don't think it excuses it. No, it doesn't.

And like another thing that might not excuse things, not might not does not excuse things is. Something that came to mind. You know, she is from an older generation that has different viewpoints of what we do with disabled people. Yes. We're not that far removed from institutionalizing people. Yes. I have an aunt, Aunt Vicky, on my father's side. And I met her one time.

And that one time I met her, she was already an elderly woman. And it was at my grandmother's funeral in Ohio. Completely different grandmother that I'm talking about. my two separate grandmothers. Maybe you want to give a background about Vicki's. Right. When she was a child, she had measles, and her temperature rose so rapidly that it fried her brain. And she became developmentally disabled.

And back in that time, like in the 50s and stuff, you didn't stay at home. You went to an institution. And Aunt Vicky was in an institution for the rest of her until she died. She was in residential care. And you didn't know she existed for a long time. I think to point that somebody in your, that side of the family told you, oh, we don't talk about her. We don't talk about her. Because I was looking at a family picture.

I'm like, who is that little girl? And they're like, that's Vicki. We don't talk about her. And it took until I was in my mid-20s, that was the only time I had seen her because she was at my Grammy's funeral. So to tie into Lillian's mindset of previous generations who, if you had a disabled, member of your family, they're looked at as embarrassments to the point where you don't talk about them. You pretend that they don't exist and you quietly put them in an institution and forget about them. Dementia or not, and there's no proof that Lillian had dementia, but dementia

or not, for decades, Lillian had the opportunity to put something legally in place that if something happened to her, Joel would be taking care of. And she did not do that. And she was a nurse. She knew better. Yes. And for that, I think she deserves no leniency, no forgiveness. Like, not only was what she did premeditated. She is somebody that knows better. She knew the system. She knew the process. She chose not to do it. And violated Hippocratic oath. Almost 20, over 20 years. She got Joel, when she was, when she was, she was 61, I believe it. I believe if our notes are correct. Yeah.

Because this went from early 60s until she was 87 when this all went down. So roughly 25, 26 years. She had the opportunity to do this. And I, I have a hard time believing she had dementia at 61. And I, yeah. So I, you guys can say what you want in the comments. I have zero sympathy for Lillian. whatsoever. In my mind, she is a murderer and she needs to be talked about as such. And I

really don't like that there are so many people, like when the, the police captain gave a speech and he talked about how he, I'm kind of paraphrasing, sympathy for this woman who feels she needs to kill her grandson because in her mind, he cannot be taken care of. When that's, is such a broken framework when you look at the details. It is not what Joel's situation was. No, not at all. He had other family. He had state funding.

He was able to hold a part-time job. So for him to say, you know, that he sympathizes with the grandmother who believes that her loved one couldn't be taken care of, well, that's built on a faulty premise. Like, this is not reality. It's the inability to talk about things like this concretely and factually that will lead to more murders of disabled people in fashion such as this. Man slaughter. How? Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much.

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