The Morning Stream - TMS 2537: Fumpkin Spice

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

14 Points of Reticulation. We are all chairs. What Would Dave Thomas Do? Eating off the spotless giraffe. Psychosomatic Skipping. Where Did This Adult Come From? An old soul, as evidenced by his receding hairline. Bad Kerning and Leading Sensitivity. Hoof to Horn. Hannah Hannah Bobanna, Hannah. Looking For Logic, This Is Not The Place. Brian's bulk and guns are deceptive. Baby Aspirin memories. Done with the Pumpkin Spice overload. Schrodinger's Strawman is Morally Injured with Wendi and more on this episode of The Morning Stream. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

TMS is brought to you daily by the support of our patrons at patreon.com slash TMS, like John Rollins, John Baker, and Bat Dan. Coming up on TMS, 14 points of reticulation. We are all chairs. What would Dave Thomas do? Eating off the spotless giraffe. That is not what he would do. Psychosomatic skipping. Where did this adult come from?

An old soul, as evidenced by his receding hairline. Bad kerning and letting sensitivity. Hooft a horn. Hannah, Hannah, Bobana, Hannah. Looking for logic, this is not the place. My bulk and guns are deceptive. Baby aspirin memories. Done with pumpkin spice overload.

Schrodinger's straw man is morally injured with Wendy and Moore on this episode of The Morning Stream. Let me know when you're ready and we'll make an even exchange. That way you'll try on everything that you wanted to try today. You know, you look like you could use a friend. She's only your girl, because she ain't had a taste of the Duke yet. This is the morning stream. Hello, everyone, and welcome to TMS.

It's the morning stream for Thursday, October 12th, 2023 with Scott Johnson and Brian a bit. Hi, Brian. Yes. Oh, look at that. It's official. Confir. It's no official. Yeah, right?

We got a little signed document saying we are who we are. That's right. We have our cards. We have to show our cards. That's right. To get into the lounge, the TMS lounge, five-pins lounge. One does not just become a legendary Hall of Fame podcaster and not know the rules of the day, you know.

That's right. Exactly. We're trying to behave the way they told us to there at the rules place. Hey, we got all kinds of stuff to talk about today. and Wendy will be here. When she came, so here's a little preview when she comes on today.

We're going to talk about something called Moral Injury. And I don't know what it is, and I'm glad I don't, because I love a little surprise, right? So a topic today that'll probably be interesting, one would hope.

Yeah, well, I mean, you go to the dentist quite often, right, to have them fix a molar injury. Yeah. Yes, that one. Oh, moral. Yeah, not my molar injury. that I always have it a lot though

you're right you're totally right oh doc I ate some bad brioche and it broke my molar my flat my Italian not Italian flat bread broke my molar moral injury anyway that'll be later so watch for that

we got some stuff to go through and we may as well do it things a little weird we're here it's here we're here it's here exactly the house is a little weird right now we got extra people here the funerals tomorrow. It's all just a little bit weird. So today's goal on today's show is I'm going to escape entirely into this business that we do every day and pretend like upstairs doesn't exist because they're up there right now just talking about everything they got to do. And it's just a lot. It's a lot going on. Yeah. I got a text. I want to read. Yeah. This one reads, Hey, guys. I actually know a married couple where if she had taken her husband's name, she'd be called. Hannah Hannah. His name is David Hanna and his wife is Hannah Matthews. She chose to keep her last

name because, but it is pretty funny. These things do happen. Yeah, we were talking about the two first names of Dylan's sister-in-law or sister and brother-in-law and all that stuff. Well, and also the, if they had the flip, right, it's too bad his name is David Hanna, not Matthew Hanna. Because wouldn't that be great? It was Matthew Hanna and Hannah Matthews. That'd even better, right? Or Hannah-Barbera and Barbera Hannah, that'd even be better. And then you'd be that. The Hanna-Barbaras or the Barbera-Barbera. I don't know how it would work. Right.

But anyway, thank you for that. Yeah, a bunch of you sent in stuff saying, I've got an aunt whose last name is the same as, or whatever, you know. So this stuff, it happens. People find each other. It doesn't happen. Yeah. It seems crazy and rare, and maybe it is. But it happens.

So thank you for letting us know. All right. Yesterday I had a whole sidetrack thought thing going about what was the even about yesterday. What was the thing that I got? Oh, oh, shit, what was it? It was me talking about oh, what ifs, like, do you remember what it was? Yeah, we were talking about twins. And oh, yeah. Twins marry and then they're, they have children, aren't those children, biologically brothers or sisters? Yeah, they're biologically, they're physiologically brothers, but legally cousins, right? That was the whole thing. Right, yes. And we decided to take that in different

directions. Well, I had another weird thought last night. Oh, good. Excellent. Kim's got a candle. It has the word scent in it. Sure. S-C-E-N-T. Yeah. And I went, wait a minute as I'm looking at it. And again, I don't do drugs. I'm not drinking.

I just noticed this. Sent has a silent, some would say, C in it. Yes. Or even redundant C, because the C and the S could make the same sound. But then I started to ask myself, wait a minute, which one is the silent letter? Because there are two other words, scent with an S, S-C-N-T meaning I sent to our package.

That is a or scent. And then I don't have a scent to my name with a C. Same sounding word, the C is dominant there, right? Yeah. So in the word scent like the smell, is it the S that's silent or is it the C that's silent? this is what I couldn't stop thinking about last night so I mean my first thought here's the deal it could be literally could be either I mean you look at the word science and it's similar kind of thing right you've got the silent one of the two first letters is make is not making a sound because you would you could easily

say the same word if it was missing either of those letters that's true but they don't have good they don't have good examples of the same. There's not a science and a science that are each spelled with just an S and just a C. Yeah. And that's the part that threw me, I think. Really? It shouldn't. It did. It did. It threw me because I don't, I mean, English is, whatever it is. There's a lot of stuff in English. We have two, two, two, and two, right? They're all different words. They all mean there. There. There. Yeah. So we have a lot of examples of this. Yes. But this is one where that you've got examples of that word being used without either of the two front letters that's pronounced the same way as it's pronounced with the two first letters.

Yeah. And, you know, you can't assume, well, you know, that S is first. So that's obviously the one you're hearing. Well, no, what about pyridactal? Because that one's got a silent P before you even get to the T sound. So it doesn't necessarily have to be the S that you're hearing. It could be the C. Yeah, great example, actually.

Someone in the chat says Wouldn't think the first letter is silent Says Michael Hanson I mean my initial thought is usually That the first letter is never silent But that's not true As you just explain with pteradactyl Unless we're saying it wrong

We're not right We're not saying it is not pronounced paternal It's not paternal So I just You know I never know anymore Someone's gonna surprise me With that So anyway I'm just saying

If there are any linguists Or you know word scholars out there. I don't know if there's an origin story. Do I scent happen? Like, did they sit around going well? Look, Frank, we already have scent for the money. We got this scent for I sent the thing.

We got a problem here because what do we call the smell? Well, let's call it scent. But if we put the two letters in, that will differentiate it and therefore done. Like maybe that was it. According to Chris, the Oxford Dictionary says that the addition of the letter C in the 17th century is unexplained. So it was S-E-N-T for the description of something that smells, but in the 17th century added a C to it, and it's unexplained. So you know what this means?

Well, A, I'm not going to get an answer because it's unexplained. Wow, that odor was just scent to your nose. Wait, scent. Is that the whole original meaning? Is that the odor was sent across the room? No, I'm guessing. I don't think so. I think it's just a...

That's fancy. That kind of stuff is fascinating to me. I don't know why. I don't know why. And sometimes it gets stuck in my head. This is a me thing. You think about word origins. And I think it's a fascinating thing sometimes.

Like, how did somebody come up with this word for that thing? Yeah. Where did they decide that I'm going to put these letters together? You know, if it's not taken from Greek or Latin or something like that, how did this person just come up with this collection of letters to indicate that thing? Yeah, and how come, how come, like in this universe, okay, here's one for you. In our universe, a chair is a chair, right? Yes. But in another universe, a chair is a well-cooked steak or something.

Sure, sure. Because they just decided, hey, we're calling that a chair. And so when people say, hey, pull up a steak and rest, they're saying pull up a chair and a rest because those two things are flipped. And if we are truly in an infinite universe, then there's somebody has got, then chair means literally everything in all of those different universes. When you collect all those different universes, I'm a chair, you're a chair, they're a chair, wouldn't you like to be a chair too?

This is a chair, that's a chair. Yep, yeah, wouldn't you like to? Yeah, exactly. I like that the song also now has a new fresh origin story. That's right, exactly. But I don't know, man. In a different universe, I'm a pepper, you're a pepper. Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

Let's all be a pepper. And by the way, deviously addictive substance known as Dr. Pepper cherry zero sugar. I can't stop drinking these. I'm going to give myself freaking kidney stones or something. I got to stop because I love this. That was very good. I had one yesterday as well myself. They're so good.

They shouldn't taste so good. Yeah. The hell, Dr. Pepper. Anyway, so I guess the takeaway is I should. But Fanta Orange Zero tastes like baby aspirin. It's just the fact of life. Yeah. Oh, I need to try that.

yeah because i have a very um reactive probably a lot of people do because i grew up with those baby aspirins yeah those half orange half white baby aspirins yeah with the oh yeah the two they were split like they had it yeah and i remember i remember it so distinctly that no other no other flavor was like it so like you could have some pepto and it would remind you of winter green gum because it's winter green flavored right so i would just think chalk this is like if i ate chalk oh it is It would taste like. That's true. It is chocky.

Yeah. But the point is like, flavor-wise, today, grown-ass man, if you gave me something that tasted like one of those baby asses. Triggered the memory of bare, chewable children's aspirin. It's a very specific recollection. Yeah, and I haven't found it in stores. I was out driving for lift. I got to say, I can't say lifting because that confuses people because of my bulk and these guns. Yeah, you're massive.

physique, these hams you got hanging out there. Yeah, I want people to know that that's all natural. That muscle is all natural. That's not from weightlifting. But wrapped up at about 6.30, and Tina was helping a clan of hers, a work thing. And so I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to swing by and get something to eat. And I was thinking, I could go over to Red Robin.

I wouldn't mind going over to the Apple store in Flatiron Crows. crossing and getting a new case because this one, it's starting to shred this silicone, red silicone case. Oh, look at that, yeah. Chunks taken off there, chunks taken off the top there. Monster Hunter, just sitting here

so that I can every once in a while kill a flying... Damn it, you're going to make me try that effing game, aren't you? You need to, and you need to use my code when you do it. Oh, I'll do it. Where's your cut in the Discord later or whatever? It's in the discord in the core Monster Hunter now topic.

I'm going to find it. It is the very first thing. Anyway, sorry, continue your story. Anyway, but I'm like, do I want to go in the mall? Do I want to go get something like where I have to sit down and be served? It's already, it's almost 7 o'clock. Do I just want to go home? And so just decide to stop off at Wendy's.

So those of you on Be Real saw Dave Thomas as my as my Be Real subject. Okay. And it's old-faced. They got a photo of him in the... They have a metal in the... The Broomfield Wendy's, they have a metal cutout sign of, of, um... Ooh, fancy. Of him saying, uh, quality is our number one recipe or whatever.

Wow. Of Dave Thomas. Okay. Yeah, for even from the grave, still a threat, that guy. Right. Still, still a threat. The funny thing is, it's a round sign. I would think it should be a square sign.

Like, you know, it just would have been the best joke to have like the round, the round quality is our recipe but on a square uh the sign shape should have been square definition of a lost opportunity what the frick were they thinking i agree with you anyway so you're uh so the the machine they had one of those coke um customize it yourself uh drink machines and uh so that's where i try the fantasy here i'm like oh yeah this is not good and you know i I had some of that. I had my fair share of baby aspirin. Chewable baby aspirin as a kid as well.

So when I'm saying it tastes like that, I'm not saying it in a good way. I'm saying, oh, this will remind you of those days when you were a child and you had a scrape or a bruise and it hurt.

And your mom gave you one of those. No, it's, it's, um, orange, you bitter. That's like, that's how the,

that's how the drink goes. Ah, what a lovely orange tear. Ah, bitter. I wonder if it would come better out of a can. And not the mixer thing, I wonder. Sometimes that's true, but not always, you know. Maybe.

Well, if I see one, I'm trying one, because I want to remember my childhood, Brian. I'm doing it. Definitely try it. Also, I'm here to say I tried one for science. Somebody in the Discord or the Facebook Tadpool group said, you guys got to try the pumpkin spice frosty at Wendy's. Didn't even get a quarter of that. Like, I got the kid's size, the tiniest one you can get. I think it's the one that they give you.

If you have one of those Halloween coupons, it's like a little, didn't even get a quarter of that down. It was like, oh, yeah, no, not a, not a fan. Just too, what, overwhelming pumpkin spice flavor? Just too much sugar or something? Yeah, you know what? I think my complaint was that it was way too sweet. Yeah. It sounds like it would be, you know.

Yeah. That's like eating ice cream cake or something. I like their chocolate. Why, you know, let's not mess with it. You get your chocolate. Yeah, why change it? Look at the circular photo of Dave Thomas and think to yourselves, what should we do? What would Dave do?

Would Dave jump on this damn pumpkin spice bandwagon that you're all clutching your, hitching your wagons to? No, he would not. No. And the first business would be change his freaking photo to be square. Second part of business is stop making, stop trying to make pumpkin spice a thing everywhere and everything. It doesn't have to be everything, yes. I don't need, I don't need Fanta Pumpkin Spice or Fumpkin.

Spice, Coca-Cola. Now, Fumpkin, I'm into. Fumpkin spice. Yeah, let's get that going. Also, that's the ugly spice girl that hung out in the backstage. You never saw her. Fumpkin spice. Yeah, Fumpkin Spice.

Nobody wanted to see her out. I don't know. Open. We got another comment from somebody here. They didn't leave their name. So, hey, by the way, this is a quick note. If you send us texts. Yeah, they put it there at the very beginning.

Oh, did they? Oh, Craig Davis. First four words of the, yeah. I'm an idiot. I also know who this is. That makes it even dumber. I know who Craig. I used to be, I was Craig's scout leader for a long time.

Oh, really? Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, this was back in the mid-90s, late 90s, I guess. And he is the coolest dude. And I just love Craig to death. And I feel stupid for forgetting that this was his message. But anyway, on the commercials and their placement. So we were talking about how commercials get play. Or no, we were talking about how you were talking about CDs and cassettes,

specifically cassettes where they got. bunged up, you fixed it. And then you would always remember that part of the song where the bung was. Right, a vinyl recording onto a cassette where it would skip. Yeah. Where, when I was recording that album onto a cassette, it skipped. And now forever, uh, the Oingo Boingo song, nothing bad ever happens to me will always have a skip. Uh, in the second verse. Yeah. You could be in a target hearing that song and you'll hear the skip or you'll remember that it's there. Exactly. If I'm ever in a target, they're playing nothing bad at happens to me by oingo-boingo. I am pulling out, excuse me, I am pulling out a sleeping bag and I am

going to live in that target because that's going to be the best target ever. Best target in town, maybe. By the way, I didn't say the F word. I said, fumpkin is what I said there. Yeah, fumpkin, everybody. Write that down. Anyway, he says, this is Craig Davis. Love all, love laughing at all the shows, he says. I wanted to make a quick comment on a recent episode you guys had to see if it's worth discussing in a future episode. You and Brian were talking about cassettes or CDs. you had where you always knew where the music skipped and anticipated listening to it on the radio. I do the same thing with movies that I remember watching on cable and can anticipate all of the commercials during certain movies will happen.

Or when we recorded the movies on VHS, I can always feel where the commercials should be. So this is, he's not saying like a show where it does, you know, fate, like a soprano's episode fades to black. Yeah, no, but like a movie where they had to figure out a good spot to insert a commercial. He remembers all the spots where those commercials were. Yep. And I can tell you, these kids, Craig and his group, these kids were, they were kids then. I think I met him when he was 11 or 12. They were the generation of the crossover of VHS and DVD. That was them. So as kids, they would sit and watch, I don't know, VHS recorded versions of Condor Man or whatever. And they would know exactly where those breaks would be because they're recorded on TV. You know, we didn't have proper DVRs then. you had commercials and you had to skip ahead or you had to pause and if your dad was smart you'd get up and pause it and wait and unpause it or keep recording this is the way we did things that's a lot of work though is the problem that's way too much work yeah they were such good kids though we used to we'd pull it in 64 out and it's all we needed for for the rest of our lives so we'd just play that thing they'd all come to the house Kim would make them all food I was actually kind of a terrible scout leader because we were supposed to be like marabadging and all that kind of crap but instead it was like nah come on all over. We'll play Mario Kart. Kim's making pizza homemade. Um, there's other stuff to do. The Genesis

still works. You know, whatever. Let's go. And, uh, Craig and those guys were just, they were great. Anyway, Craig, thanks for writing in and hope you're doing good and, uh, hope your kids are well and all that. He's a very, he's a grown-up dude with, with children and a life. And it's weird to me, but whatever, that's who they are. That's really weird. Yeah, watching somebody grow up like that, that seems, uh, seems crazy. Chris Brown has a couple of kids just like that where it's like, oh my God, you guys are adults now and you're like, you know, drinking and we're having beers together. It seems so weird because I remember babysitting you and you're knocking a root bear over because you're so excited about playing Sonic the Hedgehog. Yeah, right?

Like that's so, it's weird and it's other people's kids because with your own, you're there the whole time for the process. You see it the whole time. Yeah. It's so, it feels so slow you, you don't notice the changes, but then with everybody else, it's like, oh gosh, wow. Where you, where this adult come from all of a sudden? Yeah. We should figure this out, So, Craig, if you're listening, we've got to get you, Devin, Jared, oh, gosh, Chad. Those are the most 90s. Oh, big time, big time. Scout troop names ever.

Oh, my God. 100%, you're right. Is there a Tanner? Was there a, there was no Tanner. There was a, what was his name? What was his name? Is there a Dakota? Let's really go out and live here.

I can't remember. The one that was actually, like, he was bald in high school. That's all I remember I can't remember his name He was a great kid Oh Neil was his name So we had a Neil Okay

Neal's an older name That one Yeah he was an old soul Anyway In a lot of ways Yeah Anyway we should all get together And do it up man

Fire up all the consoles Get some pizza again Like I would love to do that Hang out with those guys Leave your wives and your kids at home It's like the old days All right They're all in their 30s

Come over for some It's for Super Smash Brothers. You're going to come on over. I get to be a jiggly puff. Yeah, hell yeah. I got to be Kirby because Kirby is O.P. Nice. He's always been Opie.

Hey, I'm going to throw something in our Discord. So we were talking about the way we could make an official film sack t-shirt or non-official. I mean, this would be one of the ones we could do is this shit gratifter logo. Holy shit. Using the street fighter. um font and colors chat room you need to see this hold on this is too good we're doing this look at this that was produced contributed by stephanie anipitz i have to say her name like that because it's stephanie and then stephanie anubitz this makes up for all the years of hating apps

that's right exactly i want this shirt so bad she she had this done before the the end of TMS yesterday she had this thing completely finished. So like we started talking about it I think with Randy maybe. Yeah it was Randy. Yeah, of course you were talking about the movies, bad video game movies and by the end of the episode yesterday she had this done and sent it over to me.

Oh my gosh dude. Why aren't we doing this? We are doing this. Is that awesome? You know what? If we're going to do this, Stephanie I need, can you send me like Vector or something and I can, you know. She can. Yeah, I asked her. She did imprecate, but she can send it to you in vector. Oh, awesome. Oh, did you hand do this font? Is that what she did? No, I don't think she, I don't think she did. I think she took the street fighter logo and

rearrange things because the F, the F is the only thing I, I mean, I won't say I have a problem with it, but the F is at a different angle than the, the vertical bars of the E. So it's, but I, you know what, I think I'm being, I'm being pedantic. I'm being, you know. Well, you're, I'm over-analyzing. You're a guy who likes things to look right, you know? No, you know what? You and I are the same when bad kerning happens or like letting. These are all typological terms, everybody.

When we see that, we are immediately put off. And it's not everybody. It's people who went to those classes, who do graphic design, who know this stuff in our souls. We see bad versions of it. And we go, uh, why is that? Why? Why? Who was in charge?

Dumbasses? Anyway. Yeah, I know. No, at Kearning, I think, font, you know, font use is one thing, but kerning is the, that is where, I see that and it triggers me. Oh, yeah, I saw the side of a smuckers van. Smuckers' foods, like driving this morning, went on and got coffee. And I saw the side of the smuckers van. And it had two pieces of toast.

Yeah. One laying on the other one. Okay. The bottom one had jelly. and the top one had peanut butter but they were both face up with their their spreads and the

it bothered the crap out of me I wonder if I can find the artwork smuckers yeah see yeah find it because I don't find it because it just it bothers me that you've got the smuckers that you've got the jelly and then you're basically resting

the clean side of the peanut butter bread on top of the jelly side of the of the one underneath that i i can't see that i don't want to see that no i don't want anything to do with what you just described yeah except i do like jelly well i mean who doesn't who doesn't like jelly then no one is the answer let's uh let's get into some news this morning everybody's been pins and needles on all the late breaking information out there oh gosh i know yes they've been waiting to hear all this stuff yeah so it's really important that we that we do our journalistic duty here. It's the news, and it's brought to you by.

It's brought to you by. Should I stop looking for pictures of bread and jelly and peanut butter? Okay, I'll stop now. Yeah, today on Coverville, two big birthdays to celebrate two big new wave pioneers, at least in this house. I was huge fans, a huge fan of the bands, Ultravox, and then, of course, Thomas Dolby. He's not a band. He's a person. both of them are having birthdays I believe today or this week

Mid-year is turning 70 and Thomas Dolby is turning 65 Of course you're going to hear things like Vienna And The Voice And Dancing with Tears and Mize by Ultravox Covered by other people You hear some covers by Midjure And for the Thomas Dolby side

Yeah of course You're open the pirate twins She blinded me with science But there's going to be one song That probably will be a lot of people's minds. Another song that they didn't realize was a cover. The version that you'll hear was released a few months before the version that

everybody knows. And it features a young Thomas Dolby on keyboards. Oh, wow. Yeah. Going, uh, I'll one day be popular with the people. Exactly, saying, I'm going to, this is going to be, I'm going to be a big new wave dude. I will be influential and they will name stereo things.

after me. Oh, wait, wrong Dolby. Different Dolby. Wrong Dolby, yeah. He was a little late for that. But, uh, and here's a little hint as to what that song, it was the first of something. That song was the first of something and it featured Thomas Dolby on keyboards. And it was, a lot of people don't realize that it's the original version. The version that we all know is a cover. Find out what it is.

Come to twitch.tv slash coverville at 1 p.m. Mountain time at, uh, Twitch.tv slash coverville. Back to, back to normal time this week. But, um, I did kind of like the 12 p.m. experiment that. I did last week and I might I don't know I might switch to that might switch yeah sometimes moving times around is a good thing yeah it does open things up for me for the afternoon do you remember when we used to do this show at like seven we started we started it was very early maybe it was we did it at seven our time we did not maybe it was eight yeah I think we did eight was our we did eight we did eight and I think at one point we did 10 a.m. Oh did we

I don't remember that. Did we never go that way? We might have. I don't remember. Might have totally. That first year is a blur to me. I remember nothing. I remember nothing.

Can't even talk. Wabit Magic, you're saying do it. You like the 12, you like the noon, the 12 p.m. deal? Well, you know, if you do, you know, I might, I have no problem doing it. I actually kind of like it. Tell you what, Wabit Magic. You send me that hot new Mac Studio you bought, and you got a deal. Brian will do his show when you want it.

Did he? Did he get a Mac Studio? He did. I want one real bad, but I can't pull the trigger yet, but I want to. All right. All right, Twitch. Dot TV slash Coverville, 12 p.m. noon. I'm going to do it.

I'm an executive decision. Holy crap. Wabit magic. You watched it happen right here. Look at the power Wabit magic has over you. Amazing. Look at that. It's like, you know, all I needed was like a little bit of a nudge.

No, what's great about that is it gives me extra time to prepare for, I guess, the connection tomorrow morning. Oh, that's a good idea. There you go. I'm pro making things work the best they can work, so that's good. Let's get to this story here about a rare spotless giraffe. Yesterday, it was a giraffe poop necklace today. It's just a weird thing.

The clearest giraffe is just spotless. Spotless. You could eat off of this giraffe. It's spotless. 100%. You could roll that thing over, invite everyone over for tea. That's how spotless this guy is. He was born in a Tennessee zoo.

It is a female reticulated giraffe. I don't know what that means, reticulated. Is that just a kind of giraffe? It's a kind of giraffe, yeah. I think it's the most common kind of giraffe you see is reticulated because we have reticulated giraffes at the Denver Zoo. And I never ever knew what that. I still don't know what that means.

Yeah, I don't either. It's a weird. It's the kind of word you would use to say he's a strangled. It's a weird. It's not, it's a medical term. It's a giraffe with, he's got four. 14 points of reticulation. You can put him in any position you need him to be.

Yeah, whatever you want. Flexible neck? Is that really what it is, Jeannie? Are there are there giraffes that have zero points of articulation in their neck? Yeah, because that's what this implies. Yeah. If there's a reticulated one, there must be a non-reticulated one. Wow.

We're learning new things today. Yeah, no kidding. I love it. Somebody call, what's his name? Here we see the female. What's his name? Attenborough? David Attenborough, everybody.

Get him on the phone. Let's get this figured out. All right. Uh-huh. Bring in other nature experts. We're going to get to the bottom of this. Anyway, a female reticulated giraffe, which we have learned is all about its big, long, movable neck. Yeah.

Was born at Bright's Zoo in northeastern Tennessee late last month. But unlike her mother, she was born without any spots, which is a big time rarity. There's a photo with this. No kidding. Uh, let me pull this photo up here. Oh, want to see the photo. It is weird. It looks photoshopped.

Like somebody went and took a spot-up. Yeah, no kidding. It's just, it's really a gazelle with a really long neck. Yeah. Yeah. Like that is kind of exactly it. Like I got a slightly. Antelope.

A poorly designed antelope is what that is. Yeah. This is a real, I mean, I don't know if it's getting any shit from other reticulated, you know, all of the other giraffes used to laugh and call it names is what we're saying here. Also, is it, what is that bright? Is it peeing? is that going on down there what is that i'm seeing oh i yeah i don't know what's going on there is that maybe it's part of his umbilical still i think that's that could be just a

a blade of grass on the uh on the fence the chain link fence that the the light is hitting just right just poorly poorly positioned poorly positioned exactly all right i don't want to you know i don't want to be smirched this already strange animal but he's got a little weed going on down there. Anyway, he's standing currently at 14 to 15 feet tall. D giraffes are the tallest mammals in the world, by the way. When mothers give birth, the calves are already six feet tall. Geez. And other than a especially rare occasions, they're born covered from hoof to horn in brown spots. But they mention this dude is not. A giraffe experts believe he's the only solid colored reticulated giraffe living anywhere on the planet. Brian. That's a,

Wow. That is a bold statement. That is. No kidding. That means I could go to Africa and never see one of these, you know? Yeah. But yet it's the one that you, it's the one that you see at every, every zoo. Yeah, you see the spotted shit.

The spotted ones at every zoo. Yeah, but this one, this is it, the only one on Earth. It's the only one. You cannot go to Africa and see a non-spotted one. I'm getting clarification here, by the way. Spots are the reticulating. not the neck. TV's Travis says reticulated means networking

and has to do with the spots, not the neck. Okay, so he's not reticulated at all then. Right? So they keep saying a... He's titiculated. Yeah, and they keep saying a female reticulated giraffe was born, but... He's unticulated. Yeah, someone forgot to tick you later.

David Bright of the staff says this hasn't happened since the 70s in Japan. let's see start contrast with their spots blah blah blah the zoo is asking for people to help name the newborn let's do that what do we want to name it spot all right just spot let's be ironic yeah called spot or rich rich reticulated or something like that or uh what's that stuff uh you apply to the forehead apply it to the forehead apply to the forehead apply to the forehead it gets rid of spots oh uh what's that called spot away no it's something away uh oh shit whatever it is the clears out spots. I can't think of it. Or Cascade gets rid of spots. Oh, yeah. Cascade. Cascade. I like it.

Cascade. Yeah. Cascade the reticate. Head on. That's it, head on. Yeah, maybe not head on. Gooby gone. Nope, that doesn't work. I don't know.

But I like him and I want her. It's a her. Yeah. Keep saying him. What's the, what's the acne treatment stuff? I mean, Claricill is one of them. What's the one that, like even Justin Timberlake was. What is it?

Accutane, right? Accutane, is that it? Isn't that it? Am I thinking of something else? Maybe. That sounds familiar. Maybe not the one I was thinking of, but. Because you got, so your mainstream stuff is you got your Claricil, you got your Oxy.

But there was one that you could, you couldn't get over the county, you had to get via commercials during prices or something. Proactive, you were saying? Proactive, maybe. uh yeah no it's not oxy oxy clean is not a zit remover no but that's a good name for the uh spotless uh yeah so that was that was called proactive the stuff that uh so it is proactive i swear that was acutane but what do i know my daughter is on acutane for a while in high school i think it's maybe the same thing i don't know probably like a like a um let's see acutane is a form of vitamin a Oh, is the kind of, really, it's not like a medicine.

Acutane is used to treat severe nodular acne that has not responded to other treatments, including antibiotics. Yeah, and acutane dries you out. She was, oh, we had to apply like so much lotion to that kid during that time. It wasn't fun. But it worked. She just had this brief bout. My daughter, man, my oldest daughter, she had all the things. She had a weird kidney thing.

When she was a kid, she had a total weird kidney thing, had to have surgery. for that. And then she got a little older, had those seizures that we never got much of an answer for. And those just went away on their own after puberty. Then she got this period of like severe acne and then gone. I don't know what the deal was with her. And she's fine now. I mean, you know, we took her and had her looked at.

Oh, and she's allergic to cinnamon oil of any kind. So if you gave her cinnamon bears or had a bath with cinnamon smell, smell. bathroom bath stuff just blow up like a balloon just horrible only the oil like can you can she have like regular cinnamon dusty on toast or something yeah like a dusty cinnamon yeah just the oil yeah just the oil interesting that weird weird right is weird yeah never could figure out her daughter's weird she is so weird and now she got these perfectly healthy little kids of her own like what's even going on are you even going to have where's the acutane now how come the weird isn't transferring your kids yeah what's up what's tell us what is

up. All right. Here's a story. Archaeologists believe they discovered the tomb of Santa Claus. Sorry, kids. The tomb of Santa Claus. All right. Yeah, this is pretty cool. It says... No chimney, oddly enough. No. He might have been able to get out if... Exactly right. Archaeologists in Turkey found, say, they found his grave, buried beneath St. Nicholas's church in the town of Dermie? Demre? Demre? Demre? Yeah. On trade, say it. For centuries, the location of the grave of St. Nicholas of Mira, the inspiration for the modern-day Santa Claus has been contested.

Historical records have claimed that he was buried at the church that bears his name, but the extensive searches of the grounds revealed nothing of substance. Not even a red hat with a white fluffy ball on the end. That's right. Where's the Coca-Cola bottle? This must be it. The bears ate him. That's what happened. Yeah, that's right.

The polar bears did it. Meanwhile, they believe, or many believe that his remains have been smuggled out by the church. by Italian merchants out of the church, oh, out of the church by Italian merchants. Out of the church by Italian merchants. I was like,

boy, there's a lot of middlemen there. During medieval times, after all, there was an empty grave in the building that had clearly had been looted,

but, and the body of the man thought to be St. Nicholas was laid to rest in Italy during the Crusades. However, the head of Antonia's monument authority, Samil Karabarum,

Bayeram. Yeah, yeah, I'd say that's close. Yeah. It's got to be pretty darn close. It's as close as this car is going to park there there uh told the local news that he and his team found a shrine beneath

the floors of st nicholas tris previously unseen due to the tiled floors intricate mosaic just a giant tent on it that indiana jones saw that one time that's right uh yes um there's a great meme floating around by the way video of that oh how did they were making fun of x and twitter the rename oh really okay because it's a giant tax right yeah yeah i can't remember how it It's funny. X marks the spot. Yeah. People should seek that out.

It's funny. Anyway, where is it? Through the discovery has yet, or though it has yet to be proven via excavation, Kabahababim is determined to follow through with the next step. I messed it up that second time, real bad. You do? Just a little bit.

Just a little bit. They say it'll be a long, tedious, and complicated process. But they may have found the original carcass remains. Yeah. The remains. veins of Santa. Of Santa. Wow.

Oh, it's adorable. Okay, kids, you can come back in the room. That's right. Yes. So we were just kidding, kids. Santa's real, and he's making toys for you at the North Pole right now. He's making a steam deck for some reason. Yeah.

That is one of life's great parental lies that is encouraged. Yeah. You know? We don't have too many like that. I don't know. And we stick to our guns with it. And I think, you know, when you get to a certain age, you, you can just tell your kids when they go, well, why did you tell me it was, why did you tell me it was real

and you knew it was, it was right? No, it's the spirit. The spirit of Santa Claus is in all of us. And that's really what the, what the dude with the red hat is. It's the spirit of him. I'm picturing you telling this to a young, eight-year-old Tristan,

his hopes and his visions of life have been dashed against the rocks, finding out Santa's not real. Completely destroyed. Yep, exactly. And you're like, no, son, it's the spirit. of the holiday season.

I'm sure I'm sure I did. At some point, yeah, I don't know how old he was when he did figure it out. But yeah, that's, that's,

because that's actually, you know, that's what I believe. That is, the real Santa Claus is in all of us. Wait a minute. Right.

What? My daughter, same daughter with all the weird issues when she was little. When she was seven, she got convinced by some cousin or something that Santa wasn't real.

And she came to me going, dad's in it isn't real is he i said well i don't know if you're saying that i don't know if that means you're going to get anything like i went you went full threat oh big time believe him or you get nothing big time and it's the kind of thing i look back on it now and i go in any other circumstance i would never do this to her any other context any other thing it doesn't matter what i would never do that to her but because it was santa claus and because we have this societal agreement that were to keep up the ruse and it makes kids happy, right?

There's a positivity to the lie that I was like, no, I'm going all in and I went as far as calling on the phone Santa Claus. Oh, no, really? Handing the phone to my wife and saying, here, honey, you talk to Santa Claus,

I don't have the heart to tell him that this little girl doesn't believe him anymore. And I went in the other room on the same phone, picked up the line and then said, hand me to Taylor. She hands the phone to Taylor. And she's like, hello? And I go, oh, ho, this is, I hear you don't think I'm real or something.

Like a whole, I went through a whole thing. Really? And I felt kind of bad because she got really upset. She's like, oh, I'm so sorry, Sadden. I didn't know. I was just, my cousin, blah, blah. I mean, I look back on it now. I kind of feel bad about it.

It's like, oh, no, she's almost discovering the truth. Quick, let's make it a bigger lie. I mean, there's a lesson than that. somewhere i don't know what it is somewhere yeah exactly yeah i don't know if i ever told like we never actually sat tristan down and told him that santa didn't exist he just kind of figured out for himself and and uh you know asked why you know why we do that i think why do parents do that and uh yeah it's a weird question yeah yeah you did the i think you did the right thing i i dressed up as i was santa for most of our family things that was

another problem because the kids are always like i think i know who that is but yeah exactly interesting he he's about the same height and uh and he's never around when dad's around like dad always disappears right before santa shows up yeah i should send this article to them in the family text group today and just say you know we've come full circle everybody they found his remains see he is real taylor yeah let's make that happen uh all right here's another story oh this is great um police rush to a report of a ritual mass killing seems like something you'd want the police to rush to right gosh yes exactly clear get here yeah turns out it's just a big yoga class oh so we're just killing our chakras sorry it's uh maybe it was tantric

or something i don't know it's a mass chakraside according to a facebook post by the seascape cafe of the observatory what the hell is that a cafe that is also a community space art gallery and exercise studio it's literally called sea space cafe or i'll see scape cafe at the observatory Hubba, hubba. Anyway, police, they rush there because shortly after a yoga class had wrapped Wednesday around 9.30 p.m. because a concerned passer by must took the final resting position the entire class was participating in for a mass killing. So it's just, all right, we're all going to just lay on the floor silently for a few minutes. The final yoga pose.

Yeah. Yeah. And they call it corpse pose, I think. Oh, it says here. Yeah, it even says right here. I just saw it. The final resting pose, also known as corpse pose, or Savansana, Savasana. Savasana.

That's what an Indian thing. Typically occurs at the end of a yoga class, which people lie in their backs with their eyes closed in order to sink into a meditative state. I actually done this when I was trying yoga. I could never concentrate, though. I could never do it. Yeah, I was way to like, I could not focus either because I was too busy trying to balance my big ass body on whatever two points of of body parts were able to touch the floor while the other ones had to be had to be up or turned or twisted or whatever you were a reticulated ibit is what

you were i was exactly there was all the they weren't spots those were the bruises of me falling over onto the other onto the other uh yogites i like that word the thing is like i think it's a beneficial you know obviously there's so many reasons to to to do yoga, but I just really struggled with all of it. Maybe it just wasn't the right time for me. Maybe I'll try it again. Maybe. You've got it on.

I mean, if you've got Apple one subscription, the fitness thing has guided yoga, you can just do right in front of your big 4K TV. Yeah, but how happy are the people in those videos? Are they like freaking happy? You know, they're less sugar, like, sacker and happy than the cycling people. Like, they're a lot more calm. The cycling people, God, who are. was the one I just watched a couple days ago. Tino was cycling with me

and we were laughing our heads off because she's like all right, we're going on a cycling road trip. We're going to go up to the mountains and those are going to be our four intervals and those are going to be your all-out intervals. I want you to just go for it. What's the best thing about the road trip? It's playing

games to your friends. Dude, that makes me want to die. It really does. Yeah. I don't want to do it. So I just, I listened for her to tell me tempo changes and speed changes and increasing tension on the wheel, and I just have my iPad in front of me, and I'm probably playing Slay the Spire or Marvel Snap or something in front of it. Oh, because of you, I already owned it, and I forgot I had it on the iPad.

I also have it on PC, but I reopened Slay the Spire again last night. And that game. It's so good. Yeah. I lost hours last night to that. Yes, it's so easy to do, and it's like, oh, do I put up a blog? or do I attack with this one because I can get an extra thing

if I discard a card but that makes me a little more vulnerable and yeah do I want this new character that looks like the kid in detention stoner scrawled it on his desk they all look like that yeah that whole game of stoner art like I could write my own heavy metal cover

or heavy metal album cover it's gonna be this guy right here it's all stuff that John Bender would have scratched into his desk during breakfast club exactly it's great Anyway, this wasn't a mass killing. It was people in corpse pose.

Like, I probably feel like, feels like an idiot. They had to say on the post, we are not part of any mad cult or crazy club. Just doing yoga, man. That's it. You know, and you're supposed to have your eyes closed, but I wonder if a lot of people, like, had their eyes open and their tongues hanging out.

And it was like, ah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, clutching their chests or something. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I ever drove past. something like that i would i feel like i would see it and go oh there's a yoga i don't know why i would jump to they're all getting killed that person seems paranoid they're like the weird place to go yeah to assume put them on a list man that'll take care of they they all died listening to john tesh it was

horrible oh shit that'll happen yeah if you want to listen to john tess unless it's the NBA the NBC MBA theme I like that one that's pretty good of all my john test that's okay to listen yeah not Not the, let's see. That's the one. That's the NBA. What am I thinking of? Yes. It's da-da-da-dan-dan-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Yeah, that's it. I don't know why I know that's so well. Weird. Final story, and then we'll take a break. Okay. And I know people are already like really more news. I mean, you've already informed us so much today. I know.

We feel so informed. Oh, we have more. More to inform you on people. That's right. Right, 85-year-olds get ready for this story. An 85-year-old Florida, man, arrested after trying to buy a child in a grocery store for 100 grand. Wow. Now, that headline's a little misleading because the kid's not on the shelf for 100 grand.

It's not like the... You don't buy. Sorry, it was a pricing mistake. That's the problem. Yeah. So it's actually... If this was... Okay, this is an interesting story because I'll tell you the story than I have a thought.

Helmoth Colb is his name of Port Orange, Florida, approached Lauren Benning and her younger daughter at a Wind Dixie supermarket. Been to those few times. Following the two out of the parking lot and offered a large sum of cash to exchange for the child, 100 grand. At first, Benning said she just assumed Cole was lonely, 85, looking, you know, he's my mom's age, pretty old. Hey, hey there, what's going on? She's got a beautiful daughter. I'd like to pay for it. He just came up and started making comments about how pretty she was and how good her dancing was and I could never have children and he wanted one.

Her opinion changed however when Colb chased her down in the parking lot and allegedly told her, Hey, I want to make a deal with you. I'd like to buy her for a hundred grand. All right. Now, here's my thinking. Yeah. Because this guy's 85, for some reason, it just seems goofy and strange. If this was some 38-year-old dude, it's human trafficking.

It's a horrendous thing. Way creepier. You know, 85, you can maybe say, there might be some dementia going on. It could be just be, you know. He even could have been, you know, sometimes old people, us included. We make jokes that are not intended to be taken seriously.

And he says, hey, I'll give you $100,000 for your kid. But she took it serious like, oh, I'm calling the police on you, old creepy man. See, that could have happened. You're absolutely right. All of these things are more possible. when they're these old farts like this and it just got me to thinking and i've even been i feel a little sensitive to this lately because i read a book which i'm not going to recommend you ever read a book

or so it's like tv or movie or anything you see it and you're like it compelled me and i finished it but i am not telling anyone else to read that because really oh wow yeah it was a book about abduction and you you root for the right people and everything like it's not like uh you know it's not sensationalism or anything. It was just like a thriller type thing. But I can't do kids in peril. I just can't do it. And so this, for whatever reason, I saw this.

And I went, huh, silly old man. Then I went, but if he was 35, we would all hunt him down with pitchforks, you bastard. Oh, for sure. I mean, I look at the picture of the guy, and he's, it's not a great picture of him. He looks like he might have some nefarious, a nefarious bone or two in his body. But so the police, when the police got there and they started questioning him about why he wanted to purchase the child, he allegedly responded, we all like kids. So I think there might be some mental issues, some maybe dementia, something. Something like that. Yeah.

And whether he, even if he, I mean, do you think he even had a hundred grand? Probably not. I don't know. Oh, gosh. Well, okay, this gets darker, actually. those are more yeah uh cole was already a registered sex offender and on probation for a similar charge from 2018 when he attempted to purchase a different child for 200 grand then 200 grand yeah he thinks that the price of kids is going down so okay all right uh all right he's a weirdo freaking i don't care how old you are freaking yeah yeah shit yeah i don't like that at all yep uh all right well on that on that lovely note that really positive note is getting uh cl list from now on. He's going to be getting food delivered to his cell. His groceries will be delivered to his cell. It says here as part of his probation, Colb was forbidden

to have contact with minors other than family members. Why? Ban him from those too. His own yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's where the worst stuff happens, man. Yeah. His intent is to buy children, says the mother. Oh, man. All right, well now he's no longer a kindly old fart

who can't remember that he paid for it or whatever. Merrick in our chat room says I'd be hell of mad if you lowballed my kid After offering 200,000 five years ago No kidding That is the most Merrick chat thing to say That reminds me of

That just tells me that's 100% Merrick That's great All right We're going to take a break When we come back My sister will be here with some wisdom So stick around For that little bomb to drop

Before that though Musical choice selection thing from Brian What do you have there? Let's go with a little musical choice selection happy fun times go this is we got another indie pop artist really like this

this is a woman named Lenka L-E-N-K-A and I think we may have played her on the show before we haven't played this song this one she's joined by Josh Pike for this one so it's a duet is a song called Champion and it is a brand new single

no word yet on the next Lanka album but we're looking we're keeping an eye out for it. Big thanks to Skipalong Records, Lenka from Australia, by the way. Here is Lenka and Josh Pike with their song Champion. need you fire red roses

for my love when it comes down to it I know you are always in my corner right when I need

you there's no need to prove it no no you will always be the

champion of my heart champion champion Cha-ch-ch-chabia You don't need a suit of shining armor for my love And you don't need me wrapped up in a poor I know I'm enough

When it comes out to it, we know We'll be lifting up each other High as we can go there You know me to prove it No, no You will always be the champion of my heart Chitia Chachia

Champion champion Every road we're taking every road we're taking Every choice we're making You need someone who understands You take a dice and roll it Take a hand and hold it And hope that it will stay that way

Can't have it any other way Champion Champion Champion Champion Ah Ah Champion

Yeah champion Champion Ah Chia Chia Chia Chia Jabbeia

Ah Mah Champion Yeah It comes down to it We'll be lifted up We'll be lifted up each other High as we can go

There is no need to Prove it, no, no, you will always be the champion of my heart. These are very venomous harvester ants from the Arizona desert, and I wanted to see what they like better between a banana and a Vienna wiener. You tell me to take a crap on the deck of the Queen Mary. An hour later, they're hosing it down with disinfectant. And we're back. Who was that again from Australia? Sure. I was Lenka and Josh Pike with the song Champion. And it is ahead of her seventh studio

album, which is forthcoming Friday, November 17th. So look for that one. In about a month, you can pick up the entire album from Lenka. Wow. Seven studio albums is not a small number of studio albums. No, it is not. I'm impressed. Is that? Yes. All right. Wendy is incoming. Per U. she's showing is offline,

but I think that's just because her phone isn't ringing yet. So we'll ring her now. And we'll get her in here. This will be great. I'm going to ask her point blank, how long did her kids think Santa was real? See what she says.

Oh, yeah, it's a good, yeah. Because she's a mental health expert, you know. How old is her youngest? Peter's 11, almost 12. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's weird. So she shouldn't have any kids who still believe in Santa Claus.

Good point, right. Yeah. And she has one, Elliot, the middle kid, probably did not like that conversation at all. Because that kid's the sweetest kindest soul. Sitting him down and going, you know, Elliot, we got to tell you. No Santa Claus, buddy. Probably not going to be a happy camper. Hey, my sister Wendy's here.

I'll explain the situation to Wendy. Don't worry. And she's always great to have here on Therapy Thursdays. Hi, Wendy. Welcome back. Hi, thanks for having me. Hey, when was the last time you had kids, or when, okay, when your kids stopped thinking Santa was real, did you tell them, did they find out on their own, did you have to have

a conversation? Did you have that happen in your, in your household? Yeah, we had some wild, it was a wild adventure. So I was doing a, like a service project thing. Yeah. Abe was probably four. And so people were dropping off presents at our house. So I just had like a couch, a whole room full of toys.

Right. And they were all going to be delivered. And Abe had a little buddy named Austin. And Austin was a turd and was very spoiled. And so one day, Abe, he has a tendency to think things through a lot and then sit us down and then tell us what he's figured out. And it's never questions. It's always just like, here's what I figured out. So he's for and he says, hey guys, I'm.

I know Santa's not real. Yeah. And we said, oh, what? And he goes, well, first of all, Austin is a brat and he gets whatever he wants at Christmas. Oh, that's an interesting deduction, yeah. Yeah, and then he said, and poor kids, because he knew what we were doing with the toys, because he was helping. He goes, and Santa doesn't bring toys to poor kids. So he can't be real.

Man, that doesn't make sense to him. This is critical thinking at its finest. No, I'm kidding. And I was so scared. I was like, oh. And then it was like, he already knows there's no reason to, you know, lie or do whatever. So we had a long talk about how this is something you don't tell other children. Right.

Now we're going to be part of the collective delusion and you're going to make. And so he didn't. He kept it, he kept it private forever. And then hilariously, um, as. Ali, I think, still believes in Santa. She's 21. But that's just cute. But then Peter, or sorry, Elliot was, I was telling a friend about revealing Santa accidentally to like a neighbor kid or something.

Oh, no. Oh, no. I wanted to do something stupid, but I was on the phone in Elliot's room, like cleaning up stuff. So all of a sudden, he literally walks out of the closet. He had hid as I came in. Because he knew I was. talking about Santa and his the look on his face was like oh man see that's the one I was just telling Brian I was just telling Brian you don't want to tell Elliot of all the kids

of all the kids and guess what he was like 10 almost 11 like he was pretty like a little older and his look of like no yeah that can't be real and I was like crushed people don't even know he is such a softy such a sweet I know and here he is literally hiding while I'm talking about a little fetcher. But now he's playing football for high school. Wait, is this sophomore? He's still just like, need to be tougher. I'm like, oh, buddy, don't change.

Anyway, and then Peter, I think he just was like, okay. Like, he just kind of fanned out. A kid told him he doesn't care. Yeah, he doesn't care. That makes sense to me. So why did you guys ruin a child's life? No, we were just talking about how, well, I don't know, maybe helped Taylor have another fear in her life, but we were just talking about how, you know, how it's

the one universal lie that all parents somehow have. agreed to tell. And we just tell it. They found his tomb, by the way. That was the news story that triggered all this. Oh, yeah. The impetus. St. Nicholas's remains were supposedly found. And so that's what started it. So he's been dead a long time. Oh, yeah. So don't tell any kids, but he's dead. It was dead the whole time. It was dead the entire lives. Their entire lives. He's been dead.

Wendy, let's get to today's topic. Of course, Wendy, a practicing therapist who has people with real problems all the time. Comes on the show. on Thursdays and we talk about some of your problems. Sometimes it's a topic. Today, it's one of those. And you mentioned something to me over text that you called moral injury, which I had never heard of and still haven't. I decided not to even look it up. Yeah, don't. Google it. No one Google it. Just let me talk. Yeah, I want to hear what this is. So we're here for you. What do you, what do you want to do with moral injury? Not mortal. Not mortal injury. Not mortal injury. Not mortar, no mortar injury. And you buy a really hard candy. You get a molar injury.

No, a moral injury. Okay, so it is essentially, I don't know if you've ever looked at an exhaustive list of how many modern things have developed because of war or developed because of the, you know, like freeze-packed food, right, dry-packed food, preservatives. All of that came because of military needs to have food. Yeah, exactly. Or satellites, just go look at the history of satellites. It's all about war. Right. So a lot of things unfortunately get developed because of those unfortunate things. Right. But this is another example of something that kind of came out. It's a psychological experience and concept that came out of war. And the military is kind of the first to identify it because it's such an obvious place for it to be. But today, so I'm going to describe what it is. And then we're going to apply it to our lives. Just like satellite. Now we all use. Yeah, we all, we love the geolocation.

It's like a really useful tool now. Everybody loves it. But we have it because of the Cold War and a whole bunch of people died for it and all that other stuff. I know. It's pretty wild to think about it, right? Anyway, so I'm going to give you a good, nice definition. Moral injury is when one feels they have violated their conscience or moral compass when they take part in witness or fail to prevent an act that disobeys their own moral values or personal principles. Okay.

Okay. So you can imagine in the context of war this is going to happen because you are assigned to this platoon who then is assigned to go take this village and civilians are killed in that process or, you know, whatever your moral compass would say you are maybe forced to take part in things that you wouldn't choose to do otherwise if you were acting on your own conscience, yeah. And then also things fail or go wrong. And so there's, yeah, you could have the best of intentions and go, all right, I'm a drone operator working from the Nevada desert, but my drones are flying over Afghanistan. We have, we were given a target by all accounts that a target should have been three very bad people, but instead we got bad info and we took out a compound of kids or something. Yeah. Would that count as a, as a moral injury for that person? Yes, exactly.

Right. I think you have, I mean, we could find a ton of examples when you are being told to do something. And military is like the most obvious version of this where the control is almost absolute with line of authority, right? Like you are going to do those things. And then if you don't, you are in huge trouble. Like this isn't something that you easily can get out of. So that's an obvious place where it occurs. So most of the research is based. in that it's kind of extended to other things and I'll get that into that in a minute but let me let me just talk about what causes it um in terms of like risk factors okay and so so this isn't always the case where we can feel like we can feel morally injured and we can talk about like maybe feeling really um having something happen at work which is going to be most people's probably experiences with this but it also extends to like larger organizations right systems. And as we know, just as a general, you know, rule, people have less and less confidence in organizations and, you know, structures that they used to think were so, I don't know,

take the Supreme Court, for example. Like maybe you thought differently about it than you do now. Something has shifted. And that's what a lot of people have experienced. So sometimes you can have moral injury around something like that. Anyway, okay. So a couple of the risk factors is you're going to need high stakes situations. Often life or death situations. A lot of pressures to act quickly without time to think, no clear right or wrong choices, failure to prevent serious harm, and things that, sort of doing the right thing is almost impossible. And then doing nothing feels terrible. So you can imagine there's this is like a real dilemma, right? And then a person can experience moral injury just from witnessing

this thing happen, hearing about this happening, or surviving when others did not. Right. So it isn't, And this is where, when, you know, our obsession with the news and watching what's happening around the world sometimes, you know, people may describe this. I don't know if you guys have experienced this or to hear people talk about it of just being really, really weighed down by something that's happening. They have no control over it. Something that's across the world on the other side of the world and we're like, oh, my God, you know, what can I do? I feel like I need to do something to help and I can't. Yeah. Right, exactly.

People may have noticed here. There's that, but this is some, a higher level of, like, there has to be something that has occurred that has betrayed what you thought was happening. So, for example, it might involve people in power who fail to do the right thing. Yeah. Right? As opposed to like, okay, there's, and that's where like a tornado somewhere or a hurricane has a different experience than something where it's a man-made disaster. where it's controllable. Yeah, someone in power didn't did the wrong thing or didn't do the right thing.

Are you going to say something, Scott? I was going to say, you know, here on TMS, we have very little reason to do it anyway, but people may have noticed we have not talked at all about the Israeli Hamas stuff, the Palestinian stuff going on over there. And part of the reason that I've not brought it up at all or even just me mention of it is because it is the most volatile internet discussion you could ever have. Like, it's so, it's on fire all the time. And engaging in it feels kind of point, not pointless, but what the crap can I do?

You know what I mean? By just having a strong opinion about something? Well, guess what? The internet's full of those. And some more extreme than others. but it feels like that's a situation where there's a whole lot of blame for the for moral failings kind of across the board right and everybody wants to ascribe more blame to one than another and then you know then go after each other's necks in a in a threat about it and you know end up hating

each other and never talk again um it just feels like such a dumb cycle to get on and and so pointless because it doesn't mean that I can't or Brian can or anyone else can't be sad about loss of life, sad about continued struggle for something that's been going on for so many years. All of these things can still affect you and give you these feelings of, quote-unquote, moral injury, even if they're just glancing blows at this distance. Right. But there's so little you can do. That's almost the most painful part because you can't do nothing.

You can't. What can you do? I can't do anything. Right. And we have a couple of things happening. We have a human need to process trauma that we are either witnessing or it's trying to make meaning, right, and trying to understand. So that very basic human need, then we add a megaphone into the ether where other people with megaphones are talking back. And there isn't enough human connection to have a relationship.

Maybe the math is like, I have no relationship to save with any of you. And I have to be right or wrong. I think the thing, this is like such an innocent version of this, but it's really, I think it's helpful. It's a telling response that we have as humans. So remember the dress that was either white and gold or brown and blue? Yeah. Yeah. So remember, and that those were innocent days. Remember that?

I know. That was back with the internet was fun. Yeah. Green. It was that. It was green needle and all that. Yeah. Like if you boil it down to the two responses people had, it is exactly what you're, referring to here. And then we'll talk about how it turns into moral injury. But it's exactly the

thing of when I saw the white and gold dress and someone next to me also saw the white and gold dress, we just thought everyone else was crazy. Right? And like that is so dumb and weird and what is wrong with them. And like, look at us. We're the same. There is a sort of tribal internal response to being understood and then being misunderstood or being or missing a thing, right? And, And so everyone else is wrong, and only me and the people who see the white dress are right. And then my brain did that cool thing that it happened for a lot of people where it switched and I could see the blue and brown. And I was like, what?

Shut up. It was blue and brown. And now I can look at it and like try and I can get it to go back and forth. I don't know if anyone else is still thinking about the dress like I am. But it really shows the two different things that can happen in a person. And one is I feel understood by my group and the other is the other side of this is insane. They are bad. And so I think if we want to talk about the last five years where moral injury is probably why it's being researched even more is because I think it happened at a Thanksgiving table in a way that maybe hadn't happened at least in a long time or something.

I don't know if it never happened. But that who do I trust? Or the vaccine was another great example of this. Like we're all in the same boat, everyone's got a little different kind of boat. We're all in the same storm in different size boats. And we are all having our different reaction for medical reasons, for our own fear, anxiety reasons, for trust in institutions or not reasons, all that stuff happening. And then we got on our little Facebook megaphones and screamed at each other.

And then suddenly the people we thought we understood or trust or saw the dress is white and brown or the white and gold we realize they don't and so that is then i'm jumping ahead to that is my application of what moral injury can look like for most of us who are not in a war zone right but you can also have this in a workplace and and so it'd be interesting if anyone's listening if they want to jot any things in the chat of some experience that they have where they're they're resonating with this concept of a moral injury so i'll give you another quick one from the, um, the pandemic era is you take doctors and nurses who are on the front lines of treating this and have, are at risk every single day of getting this novel virus and having,

you know, being in like my friend's brother who was an ER physician and contracted it very early, like in Vegas was in Vegas and contracted it really earlier. And he was on a ventilator for four weeks. It was like a super healthy 45 year old marathon runner. and, like, he was going to die. That is what they were facing, right? And he got all the new things every time they came out because they were, like, trying to save their own doctor, right? But that idea of like, whoa.

And then what happens is lots of people are not kind to them, right? And they're also having not enough supplies, right? They don't have enough PPE for themselves to be protected. And so suddenly what happens is, and this was an example that I was reading about with moral injury of just wait a minute this the systems that are supposed to support us are not but we're still required to do something against what every fiber of our being is screaming like you know save yourself but you don't you're not given the tools to do this thing to save others right so you can imagine like all right that can occur it's got to be bigger than just like jimmy at work

you know let put fish in the microwave i'm morally injured so let's be careful that we're not conflating this with something. Freaking Jimmy. Always counted on to cook the fish in the break room. Stinking up the whole office. I know. You can feel morally injured. And maybe we could have it.

This would be another hour of just like, are we all too sensitive to stuff? And we're finding moral injury every which way. So I'm going to go through what the symptoms are. So we can kind of break this down a little more to what you might be experiencing. Okay. So this is not as simple as like, I'm just mad at everyone, right? now you can have some of that for sure but so the symptoms will include something like on this

list guilt remorse shame outrage disgust despair really common they they are coming because of a moral judgment not you know because something is really gross or whatever right you know a person might be able to push aside some of these feelings to avoid the pain But a person experiencing moral injury may not be able to be emotionally available to others as they were or like seem different or distant, right? So kind of like with the war example, you're like, well, is this PTSD? And there is a difference between these two things. But similarly, you've seen a bunch of different things and you have this impact. But the moral injury is more based on your judgments of conscience, a little less about you saw something explode in front of you and harm.

Does that make sense? There's this internal experience. And obviously, the diagnoses are different here. But moral injury does not, like, quite have the same, like, you don't treat it like you would treat PTSD. It's going to be a little bit different. And you can have both at the same time. Okay.

So the other thing, let me go on to some other symptoms here. Sure. So relationships get disrupted because they fear others will judge them or isolate from them. Okay. So I'm in war. I am part of an operation that has harmed civilians. And, oh, what's that? There's a couple ones that are popping in my head historically, like, because we know about them, right?

So you could come back from a tour. I was acting under orders thing. Exactly, exactly. And somebody knows about it because it was in the news, right? You were part of a thing, you know, I mean, and what's so tricky. Now, think about, let's take the current thing happening in Israel. There are soldiers, American soldiers, or any soldier from the UN or whoever is going to be part of trying to stabilize the region, going to be a part of things, going to be witnessing things, going to maybe be making mistakes.

And so you're, everyone's already got an opinion, if that makes sense, right? Like you're already in this, you're in trouble because you're a part of something. Maybe someone who works for the IRS could relate to something like this. You know, like you're sort of being judged and you feel like you might want to isolate. Or people can experience this. They may no longer trust others or themselves and become really cynical, right? Like it kind of ruins innocence, if this makes sense too. Right.

And then you're going to treat it with alcohol drugs, getting emotionally. numb, same kind of things, and then maybe really isolating from other social norms lashing out, being incredibly sensitive to those kinds of things. And that can have a big impact on what people decide to do, and even sort of suicidal ideation can be connected to that. Any questions? Do you have examples of this? I was going to ask you if this is a fair comparison or not, but it seems like at a very basic level, this is about people you use the dress example

so it's sort of remind me of it but people being unable to see each other's perspective with the other side and especially under crisis so I always think about how you're supposed to use the oxygen mask that drop in a plane first and then help the person next to you

your kids or something that sort of thing and you can imagine a scenario where you would do that and then you would go to let's say it's I don't know an old person that you're trying to help and they go I never use those they're they're pumping gas into that stuff they're just trying to kill you and they're even though the plane's going down it's complete mayhem and this old guy's got this old idea in his head I mean I'm making

this a straw man I'm making this up but sure you are but uh you sound like uh elito you're trying to give me the vaccine by making me put on that mask exactly but but in this fake scenario that I think the principle is there right it's this idea of yeah no this is a life-saving thing, what are you talking about? And they're like, no, this is a kill us all thing. What are you talking about? And then there's no, there's no, what is the middle there? There's no, what is the middle? The plane's going down or it isn't. Like it's, it's one or the other and hopefully it doesn't go down. And if it doesn't, that guy feels justified and not taking the oxygen and you're going to be glad that you did it as an extra precaution, but you're still completely

divided on the issue regardless of the outcome and well really quick let me let me make a distinction here so that is people having very disagreeable worldviews right yeah and maybe i set that up by talking about the dress because the dress was really more about people's reaction to others um and i yeah i can see why this is confusing whereas moral injury you have to be a part of the thing that's done something wrong you have to you have to be the person that's uh That made the blue and black dress and his training. Exactly. You're the one who put that on the internet.

Yeah. Or you're posting something you later regret because it caused harm, right? Right. So you have to be involved in some way. So maybe you give money to an organization and then you find out that organization is doing something terrible. And you're like, okay, right? Like that losing of trust, losing of what you thought was real and okay. Or the higher mission of we're doing this.

thing in the military or a higher mission of here is a physician i'm doing this thing and that gets injured in the reality of the messiness of life right right does that make sense that makes sense yeah no i totally get it you you have to have a part in the um yes like if the i don't know in my bad scenario it's the drunk captain that's making the ship go down in the first place you know what i mean he got out that morning down to thing a vodka and said i'm flying and he's the reason we're crashing and he should have some moral injury for being a part of that. And if I knew it going in, it didn't say anything, I've got a piece of the moral injury.

Only if Delta told him that he has to fly the plate into the ground and he disagreed with that. That's true. But then, yeah, it just moves up the chain, right? Then it's just now it's Delta who has to wrestle with it. But no, I totally get what you're saying. But I always feel like there's a part of this that is you can't separate that part of it. or it's hard to because some people may think that it's completely justified to do a huge act

of violence. They think it's their last resort, right? But then the people you do it to go, well, now we're going to wipe you off the map. And then that to some people will seem as an overcorrection or an overreaction. And it just seems like you can't take that aspect of this out of it. Like, you feel the moral injury and you add to the moral injury, perhaps, with your reactions. But it all comes down to that again. Either collectively or individually, we're still the people causing the thing, right?

So I don't know how you can take people out of it as my point. Well, I think one way to think about it, too, is that we have a lot of psychological mechanisms in order to protect us from really feeling the full weight of our choices, right? So that's why, I mean, everybody knows someone who's really bad at taking accountability for whatever they've contributed, right? Sure, sure. And it's incredibly frustrated. But guess what? We all have those same exact mechanism and we all utilize them a little bit. Just hard to tell from our perspective that that's what we're doing.

I mean, have you guys ever had the experience where you're like really mad at something and you can tell that this is just displaced anger? You're like, oh, I'm not really mad. transferring it, like I'm really mad at myself, but I'm transferring it to someone else. Or I'm really mad at this other injustice, but it's coming out sideways over here. It's the kick in your dog after having a bad day at work or whatever, right? Like it's transferring it somewhere else. And that's a really common challenge we have whenever we have some. Because take the concept of the moral injury is that you were a part of something that is against your moral compass.

And you may, you, you didn't have power to change it. That's the, maybe the key ingredient here. That's the key is, right, not having to be, yeah. And I think, following orders, basically. Exactly. You're following orders or you're part of the, like, take an online bullying situation, right? Take these kids who've really maltreated another kid and that kid takes their life or something. Like, can you imagine that, that's a moral injury. I think we think of moral injury as like we're the sole victim of something, but it's more like, we're complicit in our own victimness, if that makes sense. And so if we're, and this is where when you push away any facts or reality checking that's going to have you look at this, you're in deeper and deeper trouble, right? And so what happens is there's people who just have enough mechanisms click into place and then they just do not take responsibility. So can you guys give me one example of a known person who had the power, to do something and didn't, and they seem to be just fine. Does that make sense? Like,

I'm doing great. Not suffering, in all appearance is not suffering any moral injury. Exactly. Like, okay, I'll give you the opposite first. Like, Schindler's list is a great example. Oh, here you go. Yeah. Of someone who felt the moral injury. Yeah. And then work tirelessly to try to remedy the harm that they had been complicit. Even in the end, they felt like they couldn't quite get it. Remember that? There's a whole scene at the end where Liam Neeson is distraught that he didn't save everyone or whatever. Sell his ring or whatever that is. Yeah.

Have you guys seen that video of the guy who it's in Britain in like the 80s where he worked tirelessly to rescue all these Jewish children and bring them to Britain during the Holocaust? And he forged paper. He did all sorts of extravagant like really cool things. And then just went on and lived like a regular life after that. and his children without him knowing filled an entire auditorium of these kids now as grown-ups. Oh, wow. And he didn't know. He just thought he was on some talk show, just like in an audience.

Yeah. You've got to look it up. It's so cool. And they all stand up and these are all the kids he saved. Wow. Right. Like, he didn't tell anybody. Right.

He just went around and did it. And that is somebody who was like doesn't have a moral injury, right? Right. Someone who would, Schindler would be the example of someone with the moral injury and trying to rectify it. But then there are people that with more. moral injuries, either it just consumes them, takes over, and we're in trouble from a mental health perspective, right? And then others who seem to be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are probably some modern examples that'll rile people up, so I shouldn't bring those up,

but I can think of it. Give us an old example. I will. All right, Brian, what you got? Do you think Strom Thurman at any point in his life thought, wow, I was really on the wrong side of things? Probably not. I don't know. That guy seemed pretty comfortable in his nasty skin. I don't know. Yeah, I did. I don't know. Brian, do your, what was yours? What are you going to? Josh Hawley on January 6th when he was helping rile up the crowds and then I was like, oh, I didn't do anything. Well, you know, I wasn't involved. That was certainly a horrible thing, but it seemed to suffer. Now, let me ask you this. Are people like him, who I think is a complete turd monkey? So there's Scott's opinion out of the way. There it is. If he, how do I put this? Is it possible he still experienced some moral injury from his role and maybe even his denial,

like moral injuries can stack, I suppose. Is it just then down to whether you just say, well, oops, that's the breaks and you just have no moral, you just have no conscience about that and you just move on. Like, I guess, I guess can you be morally injured and still act like you're not? Oh, I'm sure you can. Oh, yeah, yeah. And like I was saying, the symptoms are just like outrage. Does anyone have an outrage problem in our society?

I don't know. And a drinking problem, right? Like none of the numbing behaviors. I mean, and here's the thing, this is not for everyone to be like, oh, where's my moral injury? Let me find it. You know, maybe. But let me give you just a couple quick examples of recent,

we've all been witnessing and lived through, if we're all alive right now and can understand me because you're not a baby. Then these are the last couple, five years. And you can see not everyone is like got their finger on the trigger and then feels really bad because they had to do something, you know, but they're just part of a system working in a system. So like your workplace is probably the most common place for this type of thing to happen. So we're going to lay off a bunch of people and then, you know, the CEO gets a bonus.

And you're a part of that. You're a middle manager making that happen, letting people go. And you still get your job and you just kind of watch. Yeah, right. Right. Even if you lost your job, you're still a piece, you know, like there's a piece of the, and that deconstruction of faith in, I mean, we do weirdly put a lot of faith in employers. I don't know why it's because they are the beneficiary or the benefactors to give us health care.

like we are tied to them in so many ways right and so we want to trust them we we have a natural inclination to want it to be part of the good guys like right and then when you find out it doesn't matter and you're a number or whatever that can be incredibly dangerous the other one healthcare workers especially with pandemic has been a clear place where that has happened one in five healthcare workers left their jobs that's astounding right well why well we can look at systemic issues efficiency, financial, benefit, you know, patient, all the crap that went into it. And then what really mattered, not the nurses cleaning up the, you know, whatever. Or educators, they can have this very similar thing, how they're being treated by

flipping parents and not being paid enough and, you know, all those different things. So you can find it with journalists covering different things going on, the refugee crisis in 2015. Think about, you know, some of that. or just how this can happen in the places that you work in various things. So anyone can maybe relate to this a little bit. Oh my gosh, does that ever happen?

Your watch listens to you and you get real scared. It happens on this show all the time. We're always doing something and all of the sense. She'll say, let me find that on the web for you. Or it's like, I don't understand you, what she usually says to me. And you never, you didn't say any word that sounded like the S word to me. Exactly. I hate it.

And then when I say directly like, hey, what time is it? Nope. No, nothing. you got to really look into its eyes though just really look into its eyes okay and I wonder too with AI actually if this correlates a little bit with like preemptive moral injury or or fear of like think of how once bitten twice shy a little bit so so take any of these experiences someone might be experiencing and you wonder why like I'm moving off the grid I trust no one you know a bit of that like you can find that it's not really safe um out here

because I was a part of a thing I thought mattered. And then I had to act out of my moral framework or I'm being asked to do that. Oh, I just realized you just, you've, you prompted my actual example. I am, I am this close. I'm having, okay, wow, I'm having moral injury right now over what Twitter used to be for me and what it is now. and what it used to be for me was this great way to communicate with fans and to communicate my work and share art and share shows and you know like it's this communal thing or it was and these days it's not that it's changed very drastically in lots of ways and I think for the

worst but but where the moral injury comes from is the stuff the current owner says just flippantly sometimes is repulsive like morally repulsive like morally repulsive impulsive and he'll say things that I'm just like, I'm not even going to get specific because then I'm going to get emails, but there's stuff like, uh, just stuff, bad stuff. And I know it's bad and I know it's wrong. And I'm, so me being over there, being the product of the damn site, we all are, whether we like it or not. Um, I, I am to the point now where I need to maybe break up and fight that injury a little bit. Because yeah, part of the, And part of me's like, well, I still sort of need to be there.

And I have cut way back. And I've cut way back. I've cut way down compared to what I used to do. I also get way less engagement than I used to. And all of that. So there are other reasons why maybe this is the time. But the main reason is I feel icky over there. I don't like how it feels.

So I'm this, I swear I'm this close and I've been this close for months. But I'm this close to just saying, yeah, I'm not there anymore. Don't try to contact me or just be blowing words in the wind find me on Discord or on threads or some other site. I'm not doing this here anymore. Like I'm that close to doing it because I feel like I'm part of the machine that makes those kind of horrible worldviews from someone who has enough money to buy anything and ruin anything he wants to. Again, this isn't like, if you love Elon Musk and you hump your freaking car, your electric car every day, happy for you. Do what you got to do. It's fine. But if you actually listen to, if you read the stuff that dude says, some of it is morally reprehensible. Sorry, it just is. And you can pretend it isn't all you want. So do I want to support a system where I'm, you know, even though I'm a drop in a bucket, you know, I'm having those feelings right now. Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so let's talk about what treatment actually looks like for this. And let me tell you just a quick story that as you were talking, I was thinking about. So Adam worked for a company once that took all of the, oh, I can't remember the whole,

I can think it was the CFO or one of them, took all of the developers and a bunch of the different teams to a strip club and paid for them all that have lap dances. Wow. Wow. On company time. And it was revealed. And Adam was like morally injured. Like I'm not going to be a part of this.

Like there should be something that happens like this. He knew a bunch of the people. And saw some of the fallout with some of the families. And it's like, listen, people can do that if they want. But they do not do it on a work trip with pressure and paid for by the company. Like, what? So he was morally injured and wrote a big old letter and quit. And has had ever since this feeling like it didn't matter at all.

It didn't matter at all that I held my end of that, my moral contract with the human race. Like, it doesn't matter. They didn't care. Nothing changed, whatever. Like, he doesn't know. He quit. He doesn't actually know if that impacted any way. Likely, no one read the letter.

If they did, they went, well, whatever. And that was that, right? But here's what's interesting is there's a very different response one has when they do finally do the thing that makes them, like, reinstates their moral code, right? Makes it right. does the Schindler list thing, right? And so it's not like you quitting X slash Twitter would make any difference, really, but for you, does it, right?

So when we look at what moral injury is, let's be clear about something, I should probably said this at the very beginning. Moral injury is not a mental health disorder. It is not treatment in the same way, like we're not going to do CBT for this and it's going to take 10 weeks. It's not what that is.

That's, yes, PTSD can have, have some of the similar things, and that absolutely needs treatment, and that can be diagnosed. This is different. It is a normal response of either profound suffering to devastating and harmful conditions or systems. It doesn't even have to be profound. It can be a, you know, there's, there's grades to this, but often it's more profound. It affects the whole person, right? It's going to be, you don't feel good in your gut.

You're thinking about it, right? It can be spirit, mind, psyche, all those things, right? And so something that's that complex is a moral injury, it needs to be processed, right? So it starts with accepting what's happened. And then processing what's painful about this, managing and working through the shame, the guilt, the outrage, the sorrow, the disgust, the despair, whatever else there may be. And then a commitment to doing something different, right? you think of post-war what have many people gone on to do to try to prevent future harm

or improve a system, right? Take anyone who's tried to improve a system that probably started with a moral injury, right? Yeah. And so that's, you know, it can be done with the therapist, it can be done with family and friends, right? Like, but actually going through and getting help, you know, working through what this injury was. It's kind of like, leaving it as a scar or as a wound or something, right? It's just treating the wound. And sometimes it might be action. So, Scott, let's say you just stop. Okay. Is that enough? Yeah, I don't know. See, that's the question. I know these are not comparable situations, but in Schindler's case, he had some power to do some things. Yeah, right? He had the power to do some things. But also,

I guess, an individual guard at a, at one of the death camps also had, I'll just, again, straw man but maybe there was a time where a guard saw a little kid and just felt in his heart this is all wrong why are we doing this and let that kid run let him escape right did that solve his moral injury did it help chip it away is that all the power that guy had could he have done more like those are those are all the questions in the case in case of the twitter thing i mean this is it's flimsy compared to those kinds of examples but but you know what power do i have well i could leave and then a few people might hear me say that and go yeah you know what I think Scott's got right.

I'm going to leave too. And then other people will double down. So I'm never leaving. Scott's wrong or whatever. I don't feel like I have any power to do it to make any change over there. No matter what you post or what you say or what you do, no matter what your follower count is. I mean, I suppose Taylor Swift can have an impact, right? She's huge.

She can make, she can, she can, what was it, like 4,000 people registered to vote based on one tweet or one post or something? Like, she's got real power. You guys heard of the NFL? I mean, she's put it on the map. Yeah, she kind of, the NFL's, if they ever break up... She's 100% buying the Kansas City Chiefs, by the way, 100%. I love, I said a tweet that was like, Haler is so nice, she lets all these teams use her stadiums

while she's not using them. That's pretty funny. That's awesome. But, you know, the whole with great power comes great responsibility thing. You hope you do the right thing in the right situation. But, you know, the people that... I admire people who make a change based on their moral injury that only they'll ever know about. Like your guy, your example of the British dude helping all those kids out.

He expected no notoriety for that. I don't know of a more a thing I respect more than that. A more noble. Yeah. Because nobody, not ever, most people do stuff because they want to be noticed for it, whether it's in their own family unit or it's the neighbors or the Joneses up the road or the internet or whatever it ends up being. they need to have the audience to, to feel, I don't know, to verify it or something. And I really admire it when people don't do that.

What I should do is just go, yeah, I'm done using Twitter and not tell anyone. I just not do it. Like not even tell you guys. I've already done that. But you know what I mean? Like that there's something in that that I think is, we bring up dad a lot. But dad did that all the time. He was always doing stuff that nobody knew he was doing that.

was like solving this guy's problems and giving this guy a car because he couldn't get one or saving that guy's life who was OD'd like he didn't talk to anyone didn't tell anyone I only knew through like fourth hand like or his funeral or his funeral and most of we've most of that we learned right and I really admire that and hell I'm genetically I'm half my dad anyway so why can't I do that more half got some strength no yeah I think I think you have we're hitting on something that's interesting it's it's it's like I mean, I can speak to what I think I believe I knew about dad. And that was that he couldn't live with this, with the discord ever.

Like, it had to be. I remember him apologizing once to me about not helping someone because he was scared. I was physically in danger because I was with him. But feeling terrible that he didn't help them. And I'm like, I don't think he had a choice in some ways. It's like he just felt it so keenly. And I think most of us, we have a lot of motivation to keep doing what's benefiting us, right? And so that's what's tricky when maybe you belong to an organization that you find out is harmful.

Yeah. And yet you get so much out of it. That is a tricky moral injury to manage. And so a lot of people will deny it, shove it down, not want to look at it because it means things will change. It means you'll stop using Twitter or it'll mean you stop, you know, spending time with a group of people that, you know, and this is tricky because this is this kind of bounce or sidles up to cancel culture in the concept of like, I cannot abide this person who has done these horrible things getting my money. Right. And then the truth is no one ever gets truly canceled. So.

But just that idea of like, where is my moral? And everyone's a little different, like going back to the Santa Claus thing. I mean, Abe's take on Santa Claus was a moral dissertation. Like, it is amoral for a man who's supposed to be doing Santa's work to give Austin presents and to neglect the poor. That's not Santa. So he just put it together real quick. And there are 50-year-olds who are still working on that.

You know, like we're all indifferent. Some people are just born with us. stronger sense of it, and then others, you know, maybe not so much. And then how do we define it? I guess this is now a philosophy class. It is. Welcome to Philosophy Thursdays. Wendy should not be talking about any of these things. Goodbye. It's PT. We call it Philosophy Thursdays with Wendy and. Wendy wish she was a philosophy. How do you know we're even real? That'll be next week here. No, I think this is, I think this is good. Someone sent us an email or there's going to be more of this.

I'm really glad. You know, it's funny today it's it feels almost magical but the fact that we brought it to santa thing totally unrelated it was a a non sequitur at the top of the ever conversation but that lesson in abe's realization is the most powerful thing of today like that's a really really cool and i'm not just blowing smoke your direction or think your kids are because they are amazing but that's not the point forget it's a just imagine it being anybody else that is that is the most moral take i've heard on the santa cla laws lie ever in my life yeah yeah and it's a it's kind it's tied to this topic and we didn't I didn't expect it to be but it's tied to this topic like what a you know no this idea that a kid

that young says this is a like that dichotomy is around us all the time it is that and it's can I throw this in it also means that whatever essence of Santa was available to him to understand Yeah. And I think that's in all of us, that there's like an ideal or there is a level that maybe we wish we had or we know someone who has it that is just higher than the rest of us or something. And that's what we projected onto Santa. And my kid got that first and then saw the hypocrisy. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's, I don't know. I found that that's maybe the, even though we have said a lot of really. important thing since then. The Santa thing's going to stick with me for a long time. There's your Santa lesson. Well, there you go everybody. If you have thoughts or feelings or questions, whatever, send them in. We'd love to know your take on this. And maybe your

examples of personal stuff where you felt more than you. Because I have like three four of these really obscure psychological principles. We've never talked about that I'm just going to keep doing. If you people don't send me an email Yeah, when you need emails. That's exactly right. The next one's real deep and it's going to make everyone. Oh, no. Okay. Get emails

in. Make something about it. Quick, send me a funny email. Yeah, whatever you want, whatever you can do to help us out. That'd be great. Wendy, I know I've heard from a few people who are all lined up and ready to rock for the next season, I guess. You could call it a season of real help.org. And they're very excited. I was talking to my friend Joe yesterday. And he was like, we signed up for it. I'm like, yeah, dude. So remind people, still slots and things or what? Can people still get? Plenty of slots. Realsteps.org. We start. The deadline is the midnight before. The first day we meet on is Monday. So we have a live meeting every Monday. It's at noon central time. If that works for you to be at, if you are not there, there's a recording right after you can watch it later. And that's the day it starts.

It starts Monday, November 6th. Yeah. That's a Monday, right? Is that a Monday? Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. And then it goes through our last meeting is December 4th. So it's that the whole month of November.

It's awesome. So be smart and sign up. I really should work on advertising. I'm not very good at that. It's a lot of fun. Be smart. Be smart. Yeah.

You're marketing, whatever. Your marketing budgets lower than... My marketing budget is zero. And it's currently... It's me working for you for 12 years free. That's what this is. Well, go check it out.

That's real steps.org, everybody. Wendy, I hope you have a wonderful week. Thank you. You too. Bye. Oh, that sounds like me. You too. Bye.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. At least we've got to buy. Yeah. That's a Johnson thing, I'm telling you. Everyone thinks it's just me, but we all do it. I don't know where we got it, where we picked it up, but our hang-ups are renown.

Brian, speaking of renown, there are some renown podcast coming up. Today, noon. Coverville. Yeah, forget about this 1 p.m. bullshit. noon. That's a little over an hour, folks. You've got one hour to prepare for covers of and by

UltraVox and Thomas Dolby. Yep. Coverville over on Twitch, you guys. Check it out. That'll be live. And Core tonight at 5 p.m. right here at FrogPants.TV, if you want to get our takes on Ricotelo leaving Unity, which is the best thing ever for that company. He's a, we're CEO in a long time. He needs to get out of there. Oh, gosh, really? Oh, yeah. Bad. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about the games we played this week. And, of course, all the news that is worth talking about in gaming. So check it out. That's Frogpants.com slash core for the podcast, or you can watch live tonight at 5 p.m. here at frogpants.tv. We got a film sack on Sunday. where we are watching Haunt the Haunting. The Hunting with

Liam Neeson, Catherine Zeta Jones, and for some reason, Owen Wilson. Yeah, I think I got spoiled on Owen Wilson maybe isn't long for the world in that movie. Someone said he dies early, so. Oh, no. Well, now you just spoiled it for me.

I guess now we're all spoiled. And not to be confused with like the 1960s or 50s, whatever original. Yes, this is a doer one. I don't know the year on it, but. mid 2000 somewhere Anyway, we're watching that That'll be this weekend

That's on HBO Max Check out FilmSack It'll be actually on Sunday Don't always got some stuff on Saturdays this month So that's why we have our Sunday schedule Which is all up on the calendar You guys can see on the site And I don't know

Left-Hath even says you should watch the older one Much better Do you know why we do Film Sack Left-Han? We don't watch it because we want to see the better one Maybe he just means in addition Like we could learn why the old one's better or something Maybe. I don't know if I have the gusto for that. We'd have to see. We've done that before, though. What did we do that? Oh, for sure. The Fly was our first one. Oh, the Fly.

See, and that one worked great because both those movies are sackable on their own. Yes. But also made a nice twofer. So, anyway, that is Sunday. Tomorrow is a little unknown for me. We've got the funeral in the afternoon, and I don't know about, I don't know what the day looks like. So couch party and stuff kind of on hold at the moment. If it, can work out. I'd really like to do it. So I'll let, uh, Brian and I will let everybody know if it happens, but he and I'll talk offline and figure out what that's going to be. But tomorrow's the funeral. Things really loosen up after the funeral. Um, people will go home. Maybe get some closure on this thing. Can get back to normal and yeah. As much as they can, I suppose. Anyway, that's, uh, what's coming up. Uh, reminder that patreon.com slash TMS needs your help. That's right. A monthly contribution of even just as low as a dollar will get you in and get you access to most of our regular benefits.

There's some higher-up stuff, too. You want to check those out. No matter what, get in there. Patreon.com slash TMS. That would be what you'd want to do today. It's going to do it for us. Brian, we should get out of here. We got a song, though, right?

We do have a song, yes. Mr. Postman. This is the guy who's Cliff Clavin's Postman. Oh, right. The guy who actually delivers mail to John Ratsenberger. He says, hey, guys, my fiancé are getting married on Friday, October 13th. That's tomorrow. folks, and I couldn't be more excited.

Since there's no show on Friday, we'd like to request this for Thursday the 12th. When we first started dating, I made Never Gonna Give You Up, my ringtone for her as a gag. What started as a silly, playful annoyance, became something sentimental and cute, and I'm not allowed to change her ringtone.

To celebrate our marriage, I'd like to have a crazy, zany, wacky cover of this song, the weirdest one the covermaster himself can find. Thanks, fellas. Never going to give the show up, though. Signed, Mr. Postman. oh very nice by the way i got a clip for people getting married let's play that real quick oh let's hear um is this it she did not marry your penis oh oh well that's that didn't say the word penis in the

line i'm i apologize how about this one so a phenomenon that had to happen when the tv said married the computer there you go that'll work there we go there you go bobby i think just mute the whole episode for the kids this week yeah sorry bobby you know keep them from learning the truth about their beloved uh their beloved uh characters christmas characters and uh yeah and uh what not to marry and all that yeah exactly all right let's uh let's get to never going to give you up of course that song we love by rick assley used so much for rickrolls um i'm gonna go back to a weird skiffle version i love this version this kind of a swing uh swing skiffle version from 2010 by a group called the lost fingers um this was kind of uh god

What do I compare this to? I don't think anything. I think this thing is kind of in a class by itself, and I love this whole album. The album is called Gypsy Chameleon, and it's all great covers done in this style by this band. Here are The Lost Fingers and Never Gonna Give You Up. We're no strangers to love, you know the rules, and so do I.

A full commitment's what I'm thinking of. You wouldn't get this from any other guy. I just want to tell you how I'm feeling. I've got to make you understand. Never going to give you up. Never going to let you down. Never going to run around and desert you. Never going to make you cry.

Never going to say goodbye. Never going to tell a lie and hurt you. We've known each other for so long. Your heart's been aching, but you're the shot to sit inside. We both know what's been going on. We know the game and we're going to play it and if you ask me how I'm feeling don't tell me you too blind to see never gonna give you up never gonna let you down never gonna run around and desert you never gonna make you cry

never gonna say goodbye never gonna tell a lie and hurt you Never gonna give, never gonna give you up. Never gonna let, never gonna let you down. Never gonna give, never gonna give you up. Never gonna let, never gonna let you down. Never gonna give, never gonna give. Never gonna give, never gonna give. Never gonna give, never gonna give.

Never gonna give you up. I just want to tell you how I'm feeling. Gotta make you understand. Never gonna give you up. Never gonna let you down. Never gonna run around and desert you. Never gonna make you cry. Never gonna say goodbye.

Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you, baby. Give you up. Never gonna let you down. Never gonna run around and desert you. Never going to make you cry, never going to say goodbye, never going to tell a lie and hurt you. Pants.com. The mother effing gentleman. Oh.