The Morning Stream - TMS 2904: Reverse Fleetwood Mac

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

Does time exist? Cuz I'd like really wanted to know. Literal Vaporware with Tom. One Way Or Your Mother. PTO: Pocket Time Off. Didgeridon't. Koalas aren't BEARS. I'll be with you in one GLORP. Probably italian. Koalas, Australian for Chlamydia. It Means Nothing To Me. Shrimp on the Barbie. Deep Down in My Pleasure Bone. K-pop Ibbott Attenders. It Runs the Water Through The Heatsinks or It Gets The Hose Again. It's hard out here for a Trimpe and more on this episode of The Morning Stream. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death and the Family, dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before, starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. Watch the Hulu original series, Murdoch, Death in the Family, now streaming only on Disney Plus. Footy fans, Premier League and Champions League are underway and Fan Duel has fresh. ways to bet your favorite clubs like the new two-up money line cash out your bet as a winner if your team goes up two goals at any time during the match download fan do today and hit the pitch please play responsibly 19 plus and physically located in ontario a gambling problem call 165 through 12600 physiconics ontara dot caea i told the waiter to bring me the check and he said no need that guy over there at the other table subbed to your patreon at patreon.com slash dms wasn't that nice coming up on the morning stream does time exist because i like really wanted to know literal vapor paperware with Tom. One Way or your mother. PTO, pocket time off. Didgerie don't.

Coalas aren't beers. I'll be with you in one glorp. Probably Italian. Cowalas, Australian for chlamydia. It means nothing to me. Shrimp on the Barbie. Deep down in my pleasure bone. Cave hop, Ibit attenders. It runs the water through the heat sinks or it gets the hose again. It's hard out here for a trimpy and more on this episode of The Morning. stream. What about that mask? She can hardly see through those tiny holes for her eyes. If you were wearing that mask, here's what it would be like. You can see straight in front of you, but unless you happen to turn your head, you wouldn't see that car coming as you start to cross the street. I'm the king of digging in my butt.

The morning stream, one way or the other, this war ends tonight. Hello, everyone. Welcome to TMS. It is the morning stream for October 15th, 2025. I am Scott Johnson. That is Brian Abbott. Hello, and happy Wednesday to you. Yeah. Got here quick, I feel like, a little bit. It did. This is going to be a fast week. Yeah. Lots, like, this is a week where I wish I had a couple extra days. and I'm not kidding like it would be nice to have like a little can I insert a couple bonus days

into this week and kind of get some extra stuff done that it would be cool scientists or the government or somebody would just pop up and go hey we have an overage of days so you have two extra free days to do whatever you want you can insert them whenever you want you can just basically say

I'm inserting one of my bonus days now thank you yeah yeah call it PTO pocket dimension something like you just go into a pocket dimension with your day? Paid a P.D.O. Pocket dimension off or something. I'd be into it. I'd be into it. But unfortunately,

this is the world we have. Time makes no sense. I heard an interesting theory the other day that time is only the present. And then this guy went on to explain himself. He basically says, he says, all the evidence I have is that there's no such thing other than the present. Right. And they said, what do you mean? And he goes, well, the past are just things that, that used to be the present that you remember. And the future is a present you anticipate. But at the end of the day, all of them are only experienced in the present. And therefore, only the present exists.

And then I kind of went, yeah, I guess so. I mean, yes. Like what we call time, we've just come up with it. We came up with it, you know? Yeah, exactly. I mean, we decided, you know, based on the Earth's rotation, figured out, all right, here's a day. Let's divide that up into hours.

Let's divide the hour up into minutes. Divide the minutes up in the seconds, et cetera. And, you know, time is a construct, the construct that who knows if there are other civilizations out there, what they experience is time. It's hard for us to, you know, visualize, well, but time is time everywhere because even if your planet you live on doesn't take a day to rotate or a year to revolve around your sun or whatever. it's still going to be that amount of time you know that a second is just something called something else somewhere else yeah and there well there's also time dilation though

in because there's the whole equals mc squared thing the relativity thing so you do have you do you will have time stretch and shrink but to them in it in it they're still experiencing a thing that's a second to us right exactly they make call that a bongue or something. The second is one and a half glorps over here or whatever.

Yeah. Give me a glorp. I'll find that file for you. I just need a glorp, you'll say. Yeah. Just one glorp, one glorp. Yeah, one glorp. I'll be with you and one glorpe.

I said we have to shorten it to sec, like second sec. Yeah. Glorpe. It'll be short, orp. Give me just an, yeah, I'll be with you in an orp. Just an orb. Well, anyway, we'll have Bobby on at some future date and he can explain the whole thing. He'll blow our minds with something.

I got a little quizy quiz for you. Yeah, I love it. Bring it. I saw this in there and I got super excited because it's got two words in there that I really, well, three words. You've made one of them into, you made two of those into one word, but it's a thing that I did. I did. I don't know why I did that, but we've got the sort of semi-difficult, I would call it. At least I think it is.

You may blow my mind here, but it's all about new wave bands of the 80s. All right. And it's not going to be your, like, Duran Duran, and it's not going to be your, you know, the ones everybody knows about probably. Probably not. Some of this you're going to know these names, obviously, but it's not. Oh, that's funny. I won't say anything else. There's a related one.

But anyway, you know, the 80s, they had this new wave thing. You were into it. I was into it. Everybody, you had a choice to make. Sometimes you would straddle both, but for me it was like this and heavy metal. and I kind of went back and forth. I don't know why, but I did. It was a big deal.

So here's your first question. There are only eight of these. I'll go through them fairly quick. All right. Which new wave band's single debut? Oh, see, you're going to know this. Which new wave band's debut single Planet Earth was inspired by the sci-fi book, Barbarrella? Speaking of Duran Duran, yeah, absolutely.

Shit, it's Duran Duran Duran. So that was a throwaway. There you go. Your options on that were Vissage Duran Duran, Spandau, Bale, and ABC, obviously, Duran. That's an easy one. Right, now we've eased you in. Get the easy one out of the way. Yeah.

The guitarist for the cure, Porl Thompson. Okay. Spelled P-O-R-L. It's a crazy name. Porl. Back in the house, Paul. Back in the house, Paul. Later changed his professional name to what.

Was it A. Perry. Uh-Gy, I think. But keep going. Perry B. Loll Tollhurst. C. Pearl Thompson or D. Simon Gallup. Oh, well. I know Lull Tollhurst, as a guitarist, maybe that's who I'm thinking of.

I'm going to say it's Lull Tollhurst. Let's check with the judges, is it? Oh, it's Pearl Thompson. Oh, Pearl Thompson. Okay. Yeah. I didn't know that one. No.

I would have, you could have put a gun to my head and said, I'm going to murder your family. You better get this right. I'm going to give you four choices. It would have taken me all four to get that one. I'd be lying in a ditch right now. Yeah. What was the original title of Vepeshmo's Music for the Masses before a mute records forced a chain?

and here are your options. A, shout, B, mirror sounds, C, the dark room, or D, bear truth. Hmm. Why would, why would mute want to change from any of those? I know. None of them seem controversial to me. Not at all, yeah. And music for the masses, I mean, that's your, that's your people or people album. Those are really good album. Everything counts in large amounts. Um, um, I'm going to say, I have no idea. I'm going to say mirror songs. Let's find out if it is. Is it? It's the dark room somehow the dark room okay maybe that seems scary to mute records they were like oh dark we don't like you know i was thinking and i was going to say shout people in the chat room are saying shout and i was thinking oh yeah it could be because there was you know they didn't want

any confusion with uh tears for fears and songs from the big chair and that sort of thing oh yeah i can see that yeah but it wasn't yeah but it wasn't so it was a fun thought experiment but it's definitely wasn't that but it did not pay out yeah uh this is an easy one i think which member of the talking Heads released the experimental album My Life in the Bush of Ghosts with Brian Eno in 1981. Would that be David Byrne, Jerry Harrison, Tina Weymouth, or Chris Frans? Tina Weymouth. Waymouth, what I say, Weymouth. Waymouth.

Waymouth. I mean, the easy guess would be David Byrne, because he's always into that experimental stuff, and I know he's done stuff with Brian Eno. I'm going to say it's David Byrne. Congratulations. I almost overthought it with Tina Weymouth and Tom Tom Cruise. and all that stuff but uh i don't know why i don't know which one she is the oh she's so you know um uh probably know if i saw a genus of love yeah i don't know if you i mean you i like the

talking head recognize her yeah but i mean do you know tom tom club's genius of love or genus of love i don't know it off the top of my head no and marie carey borrowed quite a bit of it for uh one of her songs um it's the one uh i'm in heaven with my boyfriend the nucky boyfriend i found a picture that does look familiar yeah oh they're old now sure i mean obviously time has gone married or were married or still married i don't know if they are i think they think they're still married they're like bizarro uh fleetwood mac they got a marriage in there they got uh yeah exactly Yeah, well, except everybody didn't start sleeping with everybody else in the talking heads. They met at art school, oddly enough.

Oh, no way. Yeah. Well, all I want to do is see David Byrne in his giant shoulder suit. That's what I want. I wonder if he wears that anymore. Yeah. He's into his whole new thing with like Annie Clark from St. Vincent, and he just put a new album himself, or at least a new single. That's pretty good.

All right. I'm going to do one more. Okay. Here is this one. the song Vienna famously kept ultravox from hitting number one in the UK because of which novelty hit and here are your options a shut up of your face by joe dulce jeez joe dolce yeah uh b shaggy or sorry baggy trousers by madness madness right see ghost town by the specials or d making up your mind by buck fizz which of those shitty songs is it making up your mind or making your mind up

oh i'm sorry making you're right making your mind up making your mind up making your mind up Which I feel like is the, that thing is such a horrible song. You know, you got to slow it down. It's not good. None of these are good. No, none of these. I mean, Ghost Town by the specials would not call that a novelty song. I'm going to rule that one out totally.

Okay. I'm going to say it's Bucks Fizz making your mind up. Let's find out. Is it that for our final question? Oh, it's shut up your face by Joe Tulsi. That was on Dr. Demento all the damn time. What's the matter of you? Hey, God, no respect.

What do you think you do? Hey, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It's a not-so bad. It's a nice of a place. Ah, shut up of your face. That is so shitty. It is really bad. It's so offensive.

I mean, I guess Dol-Jochie is probably Italian so he can get away with it. But, I mean, it is like. Oh, my gosh. That's bringing back some crazy. midnight Sunday night memories for me oh yeah but freaking Vienna is it easily one of the one of the hundred best songs ever written wow just yeah so freaking good and the lyrics and midgear's vocals on that thing the the baseline it starts out slow and then kind of picks up near the end with like an instrumental bit that ups the tempo it's such a freaking great

song well there you go we got recommendations and Brian doing pretty good on on a five questions. Yeah, I don't know about that. I think, what were the other three? Give me the other three. Do we have time? Not really, but I'll speed round. I can speed round them.

Let's do it. Okay, here we go. The rest of these go. What synth pop band's first US hit featured the line you spin me right round, baby? That's an easy one. Tread dead or alive. Next. Which new wave artist was briefly a member of Tubeway Army before going solo?

Gary Newman. Gary Newman. Correct. Final question in the video for flock of seagulls. I ran so far away. what geometric shapes dominate the mirrored set design. Triangles, I believe.

You got triangles, circles, squares, hexagons. You say triangles? I say triangles. Hexagons. Exagons, they say. What a weird. Now, that's a weird. That's a very weird one.

That's a weird question. I just know that everybody was wearing trash bags and Mike score had a Wolverine hairstyle before it was Wolverine or before it was cool with the two points. Yeah, before anyone thought that was cool. Including him.

I'm still not sure it's cool on anybody, but we'll run. But it's fun. All right. Well, we've come full circle to do this. Joining us right now, we have from the beautiful part of South Carolina where he resides, Mr. Brian Dunaway. Hello, Brian. Oh, hi, he's gotten, Brian. Hey.

Hello. Hey, I'm back. I feel much better. Thanks for asking. Oh, good. That's good. Yeah, we did a show last night. You seemed a lot better then, but I could tell you maybe had one or two rungs to climb.

Sounds like that happened overnight, so good job. Got up early, went outside, you sniffed in the fresh air through one of those fox tales we talked about last night. My mouth almost died, was thankful for life and just moved on. Sometimes that's all you need is a near-death experience and then you reevaluate everything, you know. I'm happy for you in that regard. Well, it's good to have you here, man. We're going to play a game. Brian Abbott here, as usual, is going to explain.

who, what, how, and why. That's exactly right. It's time to play the tadpooly feud. I've surveyed the tadpoole on some nerdy topics, and Scott and Brian are going to have to predict the answers they gave us. It is their job to see how many of those answers they can guess. We're going to tally up the points, and the player with the most points wins a prize for their contestant.

Contestants have been pulled from supporters on Patreon at patreon.com slash TMS. Scott, you are playing for Andrew Kimball. Nice. Andrew Kimball. Jimble, Kimball. and oh i thought is is he the guy who thinks the one our man killed his wife yes he is he's the one david kimball uh brian you're playing for dustin schmidt dustin schmidt yes which is the red skull's real name dustin shut up not really right okay not really

could you imagine a supervillain a super villain named dustin that'd be incredible feel like it's it's not a super villain name yeah in a former life out of dustin takes a fence right now But now I'm the red skull. Exactly. The true Schmitty is actually in chat. So, hello, Schmitty. I know who you're going to be rooting for. Let's get to our game.

Let me reload. Put your hands on your buzzers and give me your best answer to this. We ask 473 tadpoolers. Name something iconically Australian. No. Scott. Kangaroo. Show me kangaroo.

yes number one answer 81 people said kangaroos gives you automatic control of the board and a point I'm gonna say a single solitaire point uh Paul Hogan sure uh what was he known as uh the crocodile or uh sorry crocodile done Dundee there you go show me show me uh that guy that i think a lot of australians maybe don't like i don't blame him number five answer on the board uh does he left his wife for another wife yeah or for another girlfriend that's right

he's a little piece of paper now that guy's barely with us um let's go with uh oh boy uh uh uh um oh sorry the timer foster's fosters oh fosters is Oh, that's what I was going to say, because Fosters is Australian for beer. It is Australian for beer. All right. Show me Fosters. Number two. Oh, wow.

We really went for the stereotypes. Low-hanging fruit, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, there's people, there's a lot of tadpullers in Australia who did things that, you know, they think are imminently Australian. But to us Americans, it was commercials and movies that told us what Australia was. well for i think of i think of energizer do you sure yeah or it was it the battery on his shoulder no i remember energizer it was energized it was okay because he went energizer it'll surprise oh there it is you might knock it off my shoulder i bet that's up here scott won't you try that no no that one that feels like old people old people older than us even oh that hurt um i'm gonna go with uh

Well, you know, I couldn't be a true fan if I didn't do this. Let's lump it all together. Hopefully I'll get it right. George Miller and the Mad Max universe. Sure. I mean, it just had to come up, right? All right. Smart.

Show me Mad Max in any form. Oh, my. I am so disappointed in the freaking tadpool right now. I know you people. Yes. That's a massive thing from Australia. That is a huge connection. You guys are insane.

That should have been low. Number 19. So people did say it, but there are things that they thought were a lot more iconically Australian. Boo! All right. All right, Brian, you've got control. There's so many things. I'm going to test the bottom of them.

I'm going to shut up. I'm going to test the bottom of the field and go with the didgeridoo. All right. show me the didgeridoo that was awesome just like that Brian takes the lead right off

just like you called it you're going to explore the bottom of the list number 10 with you giving you 10 points that's right and I'm going to have to go with

that's right I'm going to go with the boomerang we got those boomerang excellent fantastic Eddie Murphy film show me boomerangs

number three damn it all right guys are really going basics. I should have thought that way. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and when was this done? Because people have really started talking recently

about, again, about the crocodile hunter. Four or four months ago? Yeah. Were people thinking about it? I'm not sure. But anyway, the son wasn't shirtless and dancing and dancing of the stars or whatever. Now he's like a hot thing. I'm still going to go with Steve. I'm still going to say the crocodile. It's because I left him so much.

All right. All right. He was such a nice guy. Yeah, he was. He was a good. I hope somebody just punched that Manta ray, the Stingray that killed him. Just punched him really hard. You know what he would say? He would say, oh, no, it's not his fault. He was just doing what he does.

He was just doing what he loves. Killing me. Show me, Steve Irwin. Yeah, number seven, Steve Irwin, Crocodile Hunter. Easy one. Damn it. All right, let's see.

Kangaroos. A lot of people are known for the Great Reef. How about we go? Good. brief. I'm saying stuff out loud. I shouldn't say. How about we go with some more animals. People love

the koalas. Let's go with the koalas. Most of them. Most of them have chlamydia. Show me koala bears. I thought they all have damn it. Maybe they all have it. Eight points. Seeing Brian up to 28. Not a, oh no, I think actually it is.

Yeah. It's a mathematical you've going to finally go with Jacko and give me some energy batteries on there going with the the wrestler put a battery on his shoulder and dared you to knock it up Robert Conrad was the one who dared you

to knock the battery off his shoulder but Jacko was the one who just danced around saying, hey the joysa. Show me, Jacko. With that spiky blonde haircut. All right, back over to you, Scott. All righty. let's go with a dingo

sure my baby my baby the dingo I shall baby all right show me dingoes number nine should have gone with that in the first place what was I thinking I really want lucky Phil to be on here

just because he's iconically Australian to me I don't think he made the top ten so I'm going to say somebody said Irwin who else is Uh, midnight oil. I can't think of anything else. Ooh, yeah.

Yeah. But time has come to be four or six. Time has come. Show me. Beds are burning. No. Worth it because they deserve a shout out. I love those guys.

They look like Mad Max extras, extras that band. That's why I love them. They do. Plus, I think they did one of their videos out on like the, out in the desert. I'm sorry tied for 33rd place I'm glad they ended up on there I'll give them that

I've always wanted to go to Australia despite America's history of only given us some weird stuff from Australia and I always you know a great barrier reef I said it earlier but let's let's see if if people were looking at the brochures like that's a low risk at this point you've already mathematically once

sure yep all right show me the great barrier Reef. Oh, good, Reef. It is not. It's a barrier for you getting any points.

It's a Great Barrier Reef did. Where is it? Actually, also tied for 33rd place. Only one person said Great Barrier Reef.

All right. Let's test everyone's cartoonism and say the Tasmanian devil. Yeah, that guy. Sure. Let's do it. All right.

Show me from Tasmania. The Tasmanian devil. Are you kidding me? No. Well, let's... Technically from Tasmania, which was what I did, an Australian province or separate country? Maybe separate country. It's all part of the continent, though, right?

Isn't it? Or no? It is. Yeah, it is part of the continent. Okay. I'm thinking probably way too much in my own head about it being the continent, not the country. Oh, it is an island. Thank you, I-Corps.

Yeah, it's an island. Oh, it's an island off the coast of Australia. And is that full of those little bastards and they don't come from anywhere else? That's crazy. I think so. Wild. So whatever you do, don't go there and they're just going to all zip around you. Yeah.

We got a Taz in the chat. Maybe he has mania. I don't know. Did we say? Go ahead. Did we say Outback? I mean. Oh, like Outback Steakhouse?

No, no, not the restaurant. Okay. But whenever you think of Australia is, go, the Outback. Sure, the Outback. Yeah. Yeah. is that what you want to say for your for your next guest like I said right now my heads and like those travel brochures they always showed like areas in the Outback they showed the opera house which is really cool that oh shit is an opera house Sydney one yeah yeah let's let's go with the Sydney Opera House and we'll just we'll just leave out back on this little Subaru sounds good all right show me the Sydney Opera House and that cool scallop design yeah Number 14, Sydney Opera House, so it was up there.

Outback, if you would have said it, Outback itself, tied for 33rd. Outback Steakhouse, number 13. Outback steakhouse. That's great. The other two in the field, that is the end of the game. The other two in the field were both food, number four. Barney. And the work talked about this sandwich.

Vegetamite. It's a meat, of course. Heast spread that's just gross. Tanya loves that crap. That's gross. You did guess number six. He had his shrimp on the Barbie for number six. Oh, man.

It should have gone for more of those stereotypes. Is there a fair number of these on here? Number 12, oh, number 11, let's do it. Number 11 is, it's funny because number 11, oops. It doesn't exist. It's a button right above the flowers. I was going to say stuff that kills you.

Yeah. I was going to say, yeah. Well, that's the thing. Number 11 was giant ass spiders. Number 12 was deadly animals. Yeah. Number 15. A knife. Number 16, bluey, drop bears, Aborigines, Tim Tams, wallabies, corks dangling from a slouch hat.

Lucky Phil was on the list at number 23. Nice. Emoos, good-day mate, Hugh Jackman, Marmite, which is like your competitor to Vegemite. The Hemsworthsend up in this thing at all? Like one person said Chris Hemsworth. That's it. It should be no more. The Bush, the C-word, which sounds like it should be the same thing.

Oluro, which is the Ayrs Rock, a vast unforgiving wasteland of desert, somebody said. Margo Robbie, King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. Oh, nice. Golden Game Time. Doing a shooey.

I don't know what that is, and I'm afraid to look it up. I don't want to know what that is, doing a shooey. Doing a shooey. And finally, Raygun, the Korean track-suited break dancer from the Olympics.

Oh, man. I wonder how many more years she'll stay on this kind of a list. I know. Have you heard the theory, though, that she's the turning point for where the world has gone. So in other words, like

I like this year. After she, so before there was wife before she, obviously this is stupid because we had the pandemic, the million other things. But there was life before she did her dance and then her dance unlocked some kind of demonic portal and now everything's all Jack. I love. I would love claim everything on

Ray Gun. That would be great. I love it. I feel like somebody's ride down an escalator was the point at which a portal opened up and let demons onto our planet. Yeah, it feels like that. That feels like that was the moment at which all that stuff happened. I don't think I buy, I don't buy,

wow, what happened? It's all, what happened? What's going on here? You're going to start sizzling any second now. I don't know what happens. Just ray gun. I pushed a button I didn't mean to. All right, well, we'll deal with that.

There's all that talk about the demons. Hey, congratulations going to Dustin Schmidt, right there in our chat room. Congratulations, Schmiddy. You are getting a copy of Alfred Hitchcock Vertigo, the game, and Postal Brain Damaged, also on Steam. Big thanks to Keith Hicks, who gave us these. But don't worry, Andrew Kimble, Kimble,

you're getting a copy of Paranautical Activity Deluxe Atonement Edition. Scary. If you can spell it, you can play it. That one is going to you also courtesy of Keith. Oh, nice. You know what's nice is when the person who wins is actually here today. I like that. Yes, it is for sure.

Yeah, that pleases me deep down to my pleasure bone. Oh, here we go. Doing a shooie is a thing where you drink alcohol out of your shoe. Oh, that seems less dirty than I was assuming based on the name. Oh, yeah, it sounds worse than it is. Yeah, yeah. I caught my girlfriend doing a shooy. yeah gross uh all right well well done let's play him a little uh little dingle here where is it

long wrong congratulations yeah well done and to everyone else we say what but we you won and that's great i lost that's okay though because brian everybody wins games today tell them what they're getting so true oh did you just say no you just said we're going sorry say it again i was fixing my camera don't tell them again we're good totally totally fine having my own paranoid paranormal activity with my camera today. Everything's fine. Anyway, those are be out to you ASAP. I'll send those to you via

your DMs on Patreon. So watch for those. And if you haven't yet signed up to be considered to be played for by me or Brian, you're going to want to get in there and do that. Dunoway and I finished an episode yesterday all about Elvira, Mistress of the Dark. Better than you remember.

Really? Games are all right. Yeah. What does she have to do in those games? Is she fighting monsters? You don't play as Elvira. aggressive producers or something. You just talk to her, you talk to her occasionally. She's part of the story, obviously, but she's not, you don't play as her. You're somebody else.

Gotcha. And they're very good like RPGs. The fact that she's on there, her branding is there, it could honestly be any branding. But we came to this conclusion that in a time where games had a hard time doing good IP stuff, this did a really good job of being a great game and having all that branding. It was, it's really good. Footy fans, Premier League and Champions League are underway, and FanDuel has fresh ways to bet your favorite clubs,

like the new two-up money line. Cash out your bet as a winner if your team goes up two goals at any time during the match. We've also added 120-minute markets, so you can bet into extra time and never miss the late-match magic. From kickoff to the final whistle, you can make a live, same-gay parlay your way. Download FanDuel and hit the pitch today. Please play responsibly 19 plus and physically located in Ontario.

Gambling problem call 1866-5-3-2-600. Visit Connxontera.com. so yeah so we'd recommend it anyway that was on play retro frogpants dot com slash play retro is the show brian dunaway is the co-host i would like him now as he feels better to kiss our butts thank you yeah you're welcome all right guys we need some some technology in our lives and yes we do there's only one way to make that happen and that's to push this button right here isn't technology wonderful well it sure is and i only feel that way because tom merritt is the one that often shares it with us and today is one of those days Tom Merritt welcome to the program

how are you sir oh I'm I'm lovely yeah I'm I'm good I'm hidden I'm trying to find you unhide the Tom there he is you were done you were hand me I mean hide me you were way down my list of places but there you are and it should try not to take offense there it's because of Tom that I'm going to that I'm going to it's because of Tom that I it's because of Tom that I plunk down a bunch of money to go see a K-pop band that's coming to Denver. Yes. So I'm going to go see twice. Yes. So

you're going to go see them in Denver now? I'm going to go see him in Denver. What changed your mind? Because I texted Brian to ask him about it and he said, I don't know, those tickets are pricey. And they are. They are pricey. I'll tell you what it was. It was watching K-pop demon hunters again for

soundography and realizing, oh yeah, take down is buy twice. By twice. Yep. Oh, the band is twice. This is how little I know. Okay. Yes. But that is not the band that does like gold.

Golden is Huntrix. Yeah, Golden is three singers that go by Huntrix because that's the name of the band in the movie. Right. But they're from different bands and solo stuff, right? Or did they all come from twice? They're not even from bands. Okay. Oh, really?

Two of them were in training for idols and never made it in. And then they have their own solo careers, you know. So I think they're. just all soloists. Yeah, yeah, they don't need, they don't need a band now. They're doing just I mean, they are a band suddenly. They're hundreds. Yeah, yeah. Of course, yes. Well, there you go. That's great. I'm excited to hear what you think. So I'm going up my money because I have to buy a light stick. Yeah. And there's no, there's no going to a K-pop concert not buying a light stick. I feel like that is part of the experience. Right. Absolutely. That's a, is that

the lighter, the 2025 version of a lighter where you hold it up? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Okay. I don't think I have my twice light stick. Oh, really? You have a twice light stick? I do. It's over there. Yeah.

How many light sticks do you own? Just out of curiosity, if you know off the top of your head. I think I have like five. Eileen has like nine or ten. Wow. You guys are hardcore, man. Yeah. Demon hunters, too, should feature you.

I have a Blackberry playbook. What is that a Blackberry playbook? Yeah. What? Oh, okay. All right. I mean, he's got things you guys don't even want to know. It's a Blackberry tablet.

Is that what that is? Yeah, it's the last gasp of Blackberry trying to get into the tablet game. I see Star Wars novels. I see something about a 2,600. I don't know what that is. I think they're all over there. Gotcha. All right.

You know what I love about it? If you go to twice and you like it, then you can join their fandom, which is called once. Shut up. That's their, that's their fandom. Yes, that's the name of their fandom. Is that true? Come on. Really? Okay. That's amazing. It gives me enough time. The show's

in April, so it gives me enough time to figure out my bias and my breakers. So I'll be working on both of those things. A wrecker. Yes. Oh, wrecker. I'm sorry. It's a record. See, that's why you have this time. We can figure it out. Yes, exactly. I can get the terminology correct. We can work it through. It's our dog's birthday, or

I'd totally fly out to Denver and go with you. That sounds so fun. It's really funny. Do you think, I mean, listen, I'm a pet owner. I love my cat. She's sitting right here, curled up. yeah if you were gone for his birthday do you think you'd be like he won't care no it's us that would be like oh we left about his birthday yeah he won't give it yeah yeah this tells you the level of care that um eileen and tom have for their animals they love yes it's an important day for us for him it's like whoa lots of treats today i don't know what that was

is it is it um his adoption day or did they have no it's his actual birthday because they actually knew they found it when he was like four days old oh so they know when the when the mom went to the park Because the neighbors saw the mom go And they called it in And then they came and got him So yeah It was an actual day Nice

I don't even have that I don't know when my dogs were born They're all I've never had an actual birthday on a dog Because we always adopt them And we just don't have the backstories But this one people saw the dog The stray dog go give birth

They saw the mom go to the park And took four days Yeah Yeah She took some breadcrums fed the pigeons For a while Played some chest with a It was outside

like Bakersfield. So, yeah, it's like, okay, so you knew the mom was there and you're like, I guess somebody ought to call. Well, it's the meth capital of California I've been told. And you know where it's, yeah, you know what told me that is the video game, Grand Theft Auto 5 is the one that told me that. Although it doesn't call it Bakersfield, but yeah. Our dog is very energetic. Yeah, I can't really call it. That explains seven's energy level. Yeah. Wow, she's really hyped up. What's going on there? Never sleeps. Uh, well, Tom, We're going to do something a little bit different today and actually kind of hope it becomes a trend because I really like this idea of somebody sending in a question for Tom. We got this like very, you know, specific question.

And I said, hey, Tommy, you want to do this? He says, yeah, I actually really wanted to do that. So we're going to do this. This is, it kept blowing away, run away. Oh, no, this, I'm looking at the wrong thing. There it is. I went down too far in my notes. Question for Tom, dear supervised learning and batch normalization.

that's maybe the most complex things we've gotten. I love that. Yeah, that's great. That's really good. I've heard people say AI uses a certain, and he's put uses in quotes. That's important. He's trying to emphasize it. Uses a certain amount of water every time you ask it a question or make a request.

Most mention it quickly and matter-of-factly with no follow-up on how the water is actually lost. Are we talking about the water running through evaporative coolers for the servers? Doesn't any water used this way become vapor and return to the water cycle we all learned about in third grade. There might be some losses in treatment or operation, but that seems minor, especially, or sorry, it's certainly less than the half-liter figure I've always been cited. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here. Thanks for explaining.

Prompt to the bot bro, or maybe don't, depending on what you learn from Tom, says Bob. Yeah, this is a great question because you do hear people go, they're a water bottle every that the sani water bottle every time you do a prompt and if you say thank you to chat GPT a whole half of water bottle the whole thing goes poof now I don't want to

diminish anybody's actual concerns for the environment because I share your concerns I'm just I but I more prefer truth of things yeah absolutely it's no let's really find out what's going on here and say oh that's the truth the whole time it has been but maybe the sani water bottle every time you say thank

you to chat GPT Yeah, it's AI are camels, and so they, but even AI would turn their nose up into Tasani. Come on. Yeah. It is true that what you say, that no water is technically used, right? Because we don't send it off into space. So most of the water in data centers, as the questioner rightly noted, is evaporative cooling. So it runs the water, it doesn't run the water exactly over the servers,

because then it might short out the chips. Just sprays them with a nice mist through, like you find a Disney lab. It actually does misting is used in data centers. But of course it doesn't get into the servers themselves, but it cools them off, right? It is evaporative cooling. So water is running over in a contained way and there's misting. You will find actual misting happening in data centers. And that water goes up into the air, becomes clouds.

And rains down just like we all learned in, well, you were in third grade. That was advanced. I didn't learn until fifth grade, but it's, you know, it's, yes, that is correct. The Illinois state school system in Illinois was way behind things. Some of the water in that system does not evaporate, but it does pick up metals and sediments as it moves through the system, and then it goes out into the city wastewater system. That water going out in the wastewater system cannot be immediately used.

So it is considered, quote unquote, lost. But that is the water that is more readily. reclaimed because it does go into the sewer system most of the time. And once it goes into the sewer system, it goes into water treatment plants. And the water treatment plants, depending on where you live and how your water treatment system works, are sometimes treated to become potable, meaning you could drink it. It goes back into the drinking system. Oftentimes, it's sent back for industrial uses or agricultural uses. So it's clean enough, so it doesn't have metals and anything in it, but they don't do the extra work to make sure it doesn't have the kind of,

kinds of things we don't want to drink. And in those cases, it can go back to the data centers because it's considered worthy of industrial use. But it also is used in agriculture. However, the majority of the water in a data center cooling system is lost to the air. And so you're right, that isn't really lost, but it doesn't go back into the lake or the stream from whence it came. right uh it takes a while to work its way and it might land you know a continent over uh so you are using the local water resource when you lose that water to evaporative cooling and yes it it will eventually come back somewhere but it not in a timely enough matter and not in the exact location you need it uh so it is it is a strain on local water resources uh

And anybody who lives in a desert area like the U.S. Southwest knows, yeah, we drink water and we pee it back into the system. But that doesn't mean the lake doesn't get drier, right? Because we are using that water and we're using it in a way that it doesn't always make it back into the lake to be replenished. So if a data center is evaporative cooling, it's actually making sure that it doesn't get back. It's putting it into the air and it floats away. So that is the concern about water use with any data center, whether it's running AI or not, and with any factory that needs cooling because factories also need this kind of cooling for their equipment and that sort of thing. So I think sometimes it's tempting to think of AI data centers as a new thing that are suddenly using all this water and no one was before. this has always been a problem like using water for industrial uses is always an issue and it's a back and forth in trying to figure out like how to make the cooling more efficient finding alternative means of cooling finding alternative sources of water being able to replenish water and this is the newest industrial use of that I think what is alarming to people beyond the emotional thing of whether you like AI or not is the projected use rise in

of this. And like anything, we're always projecting probably close to the worst case. And so it looks dramatic and looks horrible. And sometimes that's useful in scaring people into doing something about it, right? But it doesn't necessarily mean that will be the actual case as we try to come up with more efficient ways to do things. As new things come along that make the way they're doing things now not necessary, the way AI is diminishing search. Something may come along that isn't as compute intensive that

undermines all of this, but we don't know what that is, right? So we can't count on that. But that sort of thing often happens. So I would say that it is not wrong to be concerned about the use of water in cooling data centers. But I also wouldn't panic and say, and therefore we should shut down all the data centers, especially because still at this point, even though the projections show we're headed towards a point where it won't be true, the data centers are more used for your email and processing and software as a service and Netflix streaming and all of that. Your Netflix streaming also uses water. The more video you watch, the more water you use. It's just that the projections of the usage of AI and the compute intensity of

AI and not calculating for GPU improvements and efficiencies mean that that hockey stick looks pretty important. Yeah, and you can't let the irony float away that right now we are having this 1080P 60 frame per second conversation over services that make it so we can convey the three of us in clarity and quality across various servers to various places, YouTube in particular, Twitch, these sorts of things. And those are all, that is all possible because of massive water cooling systems and data centers.

Like these are all connected to that. So it is easy to get lulled into this idea that this is a new thing and it's not so much. I was going to ask you, though, do you know of any, you know, things are getting more efficient? Chips are getting more efficient. Yeah. The algorithms and the models and stuff are getting more efficient. So that efficiency obviously contributes to less use. But are you aware of any technologies that are brewing out there that are fundamentally meant to change that, not just for AI, but for cooling in general.

I mean, I know Bezos wants to put servers in space. There are people talking about putting them in the ocean. I think some of that is already happening. Microsoft actually has experimented with a couple off the Scottish coast and some other places to do ocean cooled where you don't lose that water. It just keeps floating around you.

And so, yeah, I think this is going to pressure companies to get serious about, you know, doubling down on that sort of thing and figuring out how to make it work so that the cables don't corrode and it's sustainable and all of that. I think battery and power generation is also part of this equation

and having better storage of power using more renewable power not just nuclear seems to make all the headlines but there's a lot of solar and wind part of this being explored as well and there's also some people who think that they point out I should say that

the training versus the inferencing is important. A lot of times people use the training water and power use as their only number, training is much more compute-intensive. That's where you're teaching the model, so to speak, how to think. Inferencing is more on the level of your streaming of Netflix and all of that. It is less compute-intensive because it's just the model running through its algorithm. And some people think that we have gone through our peak training period. Other people dispute that, some people within Open AI, particularly, but but some people say we we won't need to keep up the intensive training as long

unless there is some other breakthrough and some people think we'll have more efficient breakthroughs the idea with deep seek was to be able to train more efficiently and not have to use as much power and therefore not as much water yeah i use deep seek here and there just because other ones aren't giving me good answers or they're not telling me or they're not they're not telling you what you want to hear yeah and as long as i don't put the long as i don't put described the Tiananmen Square incident it gives me the answers it does a pretty good job I want to wear a tank man and then it just shut down I don't understand sorry I can't answer that question right now or whatever but well that's fascinating it's fascinating it's obviously this is a

big hot button issue um part of yeah and people get very emotional I'm sure some people are mad at me right now for even talking about this as if it's not the existential problem of our lives but I you know I don't think it serves our existence to overreact you know I think I think we should we should look at that this is what I always do I look at things and assume I'm I'm wrong about most of it and say okay but what do we know what and I think that leads us to actually solving problems faster when you do that because as soon as you tell everyone it's it's it's all over the this is this is deadly you get two reactions one is people give up and say, well, why even bother trying to fix it? And other people dig in and say, well,

you just don't understand. So I'm not going to bother trying to compromise with it. And I think it's important to say, no, this is a problem. Let's talk about how to fix it. I was actually talking about this with Brian Brushwood yesterday. It's one of the reasons I love Molly Woods, everybody in the pool podcast, because she's not trying to soft pedal the problems, but she is talking to people who are trying to solve them to say like, okay, you know, instead of just panicking with our hair on fire. Let's talk to people about what are the solutions. How can we fix this? How can we make this work better? Yeah. And we'll do a little of that right here. I figure. How much water does it take to put your hair out, by the way? Is that a full water bottle?

Yeah, if you get your hair on fire, there you go. You're having to use more water. And it evaporates. Well, see, I can't speak for Tom, but taking less and less water to do it for me these days, you know. Yeah, same hair. A little sprits maybe would take care of it. I mean, bringing it back to AI, Saurah sure loves to show me with a huge bald spot. Yeah. It likes to show me with my hat constantly on. So when someone says take Scott's hat off in the videos, it gives me these ridiculous haircuts I've never had. Never had. I don't know what his hair looks like. Here's what I imagine. Yeah. I imagine it would be a blush. Yeah. And if you ever just say put Tom Merritt in here, but don't put his handle in there, it will make this amalgamation of what it thinks is Tom Merritt. And it ends up looking like a little bit of me,

little bit of Ibit, a little bit of Schwitt, a little bit of Justin. Like all these people that are all like talking to each other all the time, Tom is like this horrible Frankenstein monster of that. I'm the two vicks of podcasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. We've seen videos that mention Tom, but we don't know which one of these people is actually Tom, so let's just do all of them.

Yeah, this is really weird. I often get told I am infringing on third-party likeness when I ask for myself in a video. Yeah, that happened to me twice. That happened to me twice. The only game I think of, there are a couple of prominent. Scott Johnson's that are like one's an Australian rugby coach and the other ones like a big deal. One is a podcaster.

Well, no. They keep wanting to do like the guy in Hollywood, the writer. Oh, really? Yeah. Then they got the one that Leo Leport said had a big unit. Yeah. Right here, buddy. Well, anyway, Tom, it's always good to have you here. One thing I want to tell our listeners, if you would like to

get in on this idea of asking Tom questions about your tech world that you just feel like you never really got a great answer to, I feel like today we presented exactly the kind of answer you're going to get, which is a good one. So send in your emails, the morning stream at gmail.com. You can also do the text or the voicemail thing. Any of those things

work. You'll find it all at frogpants.com slash TMS. Tom, is there anything else going on you would like to mention? Yeah, I finally got okay, so trying to keep a long story short, I had a book called synced. You probably heard me talk about it on TMS. And then the publisher went

bankrupt. Didn't pay me anything. Didn't give anyone the book. Didn't give anyone their money back. I have now emailed everyone who had backed me there and sent them an electronic copy of it, which means once I've made sure that everybody's had a chance to get that, I'll be able to actually provide that book myself. So look for that soon. If you want to keep up on everything I do, including what the news is on that, check out freetomnewletter.com. That sounds fantastic. He is Tom Merritt. He is the Lord of All Tech News. And so you should be

listening to Everything, DTS, you guys. Go check it out. I'm Merritt, have a fantastic day. Thanks, y'all. And we'll see you next time. Bye now. All right, I close all the shit. There we go. Oh, I close myself out of Discord.

Let's go back in there. Oh, no. That's a real shame. All right, hey, we did it. Real quick, we got a follow up from Sieb before we check out today. Fantastic, okay. Yeah, this one's, I'm starting to think Seab's going to give us nothing. That's what I'm starting to do.

Yeah, I know. I know. Based on this last message, it's like, oh, don't do this to us, man. So here's what I'm going to say to see before I read this. is. If this is all you can provide, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to put your emails in here anymore. So, if he's just having a go, right? Yeah, yeah. Taking the piss or whatever. Um, fine, you know, whatever. Now we've had our fun moving on. But if you really, I, if there's a mystery here, I'm in for, I'm here for it. Yeah. So your next one. The trail of breadcrumbs has to

give us something. It's like, um, you know, you can play with the laser pointer with the cat for a long period of time. Eventually, the cat's going to realize I'm never touching this thing. I'm given up. Yeah, exactly. And I don't want to be that cat. I want to have, I want a mouse at the end of this trail. Tangible toy, or I'm given, or I'm done. Making a witch. Did my trap go off?

Oh, yeah, your mouse trap. Still no trap. No, no trap entry. I don't get what's going on. These mice are smart. They're smart. Yeah. We've been watching Tom and Jerry. They know, they know what's up. And they're going to make me go woo-hoo-hoo! With your tail on fire running around the room. Yeah.

not. All right. So what I'm going to do is read this and then we'll decide what we're going to do with it. Okay. All right. It says see began, but it's all one word. Yeah. He's definitely got a thing. I shall leave spelled L-E-E-E-V-E. I shall leave you for a time and one day I will come back. Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Improper use of the ellipses. A little extra. He gave us 33% more ellipsis. And then he said, until Vien, be patient. patient, patient, uh, with an A, uh, signed Sieb, S-E-A-B. So, uh, so it sounds like we're going to break from Sieb anyway, but I'm telling you, Sieb, if you don't come back with something tangible, I'm throwing this treasure map in the ocean

and starting over. All right, buddy. Exactly. Yeah. All right, we'll see what else. We need, we need, we need, uh, give us a cat toy. Give us a tangible mouse or we're, uh, yeah, we're done. We're done playing this game. We can't be that, that gift. where the ladies looking confused and all the maths happening around her and stuff we can't be that anymore. I swear, before I really looked at it, I swore that was Julia Roberts. Oh, actually,

I'm sorry, I thought it was Julia Roberts. Is it not her? I don't think it's her. And it was somebody correcting me that it wasn't Julia Roberts. Oh shit. That's the whole time I thought it was. The thinking GIF lady math. Yeah. Let's see if it gives it to me. Oh yeah,

here it is. Oh, yeah, that's not her. Who was that? I thought it I thought it was too, yeah. Susanna Vera. That's someone we're supposed to know? No. It's a Portuguese confused Nazare shows Brazilian actress Renata Soros surrounded by mathematical problems.

Okay. 100% I'm with you. I thought this was Julia Robert, like recent Julia Roberts, you know, a little older, a little more mature. And that that was just her looking confused at an award show or something. which one of these is the red carpet oh man all right yeah i know i know when somebody corrected me on then i'm like oh it's really not julia roberts okay wow big shocker did not know all right well we've done that let's get out of here uh if you want to be like sieb please don't be like seed but

if you want to send emails in okay that are not like siebs that actually have a point uh y'all can do it go to the website frogpans dot com slash tms all the details are there brian let's play a and leave these people. Okay. It's time for an indie at the end. This is a brand new band, or I'm sorry, a band called Bird Streets. I played this first song, and then I let the rest of the pre-release tracks on the album play, and I'm hooked.

These guys are great. This is a brand new song called Everyone We Love Will Go Away. I'm going to say that again. Holy shit. It's everyone we level will go away. It's all done with no spaces. Did Sieb write this? Did he make the title?

Seab must have wrote this. The brand new album called The Escape artist you won't have long to wait comes out friday so if you like this song uh you can go listen to the rest of it friday and i encourage you to do so um dude looks like todd rungren just saying oh cool yeah uh bird streets is um actually it's one guy john brodore it's the musical alias of this guy and he's getting ready for uh this release is actually his third album so there you go uh uh here is bird streets everyone will go away Turn off the tape recorder, turn off the tape recorder, turn off the TV.

I never really know if someone might be watching me. Disconnect the main frame, shut the infrastructure down. Everybody's up to something. Well, you can leave me out. It's not so bad to hear alone. You think of clever things to see. in case you're ever with someone The outside world is just a dark cloud rolling in

It's all too quiet black the windows out again Nobody's coming over and lock the doors in hide Everybody's up to something Well, I think I'll stay inside The telephone It never rained And I've got so much time to think About the end of everything

Every day Every day is a year And every year is a day And everyone we love will go away All my friends are insane And all my friends are in my brain And everyone we love will go away And the day will come tomorrow

Every day is a year, and every year is a day, and everyone we've ever gone away. All my friends are insane. All my friends are in my brain And everyone we love will go away Every day is a year Every year is a day And everyone we love will go away And the day will come tomorrow

And the day will come tomorrow This day will come tomorrow. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Yes. Get more at frogpans.com. Rocky? Will you stop saying Rocky? Footy fans.

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