The New Yorker Radio Hour - A Family Divided Over the COVID-19 Vaccine

Episode Date: June 25, 2021

Across the country, COVID-19 vaccines are becoming available for teen-agers. But most states still require parental consent for minors to receive the shot. David Remnick spoke with a teen-ager who asked that we call him Aaron Williams. He is desperate to be vaccinated, but his parents are skeptical. “We waited three months, and, during the span of that time, they started going through all sorts of conspiracy rabbit holes,” reading fabrications about mRNA vaccines’ changing the recipient’s genetic code, he said. “They pushed it back to six months, to a year, to two years, until they just said, ‘You’re never getting the vaccine.’ ” Misinformation continues to pose a public-health risk around the world, but for this family the stakes are also personal. “I’m missing out on friends’ gatherings and other things at school,” Williams told Remnick. “But they’re saying that I’m hurting them because I’m causing stress.” Plus, Naomi Fry on a turning point for reality TV. As “Keeping Up with the Kardashians” comes to a close after almost a decade and a half, Fry talks with David Remnick about “The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City,” “90 Day Fiancé,” and other shows that look at real social issues in unique, dramatic ways.  New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Just over half of us, 53% of Americans are now vaccinated, or at least partly vaccinated against COVID, which is fine, way better than we were, but it's still a very long way from what we need for herd immunity. And until we get there, the coronavirus can keep recirculating among us almost endlessly. The CDC now recommends vaccination for everyone over the age of 12. Young people rarely get severely ill from the virus, but of course they can transmit it along to others.

I recently talked about getting the vaccine with a teenager who, for reasons that will become quite clear, didn't want his parents to find out that I was interviewing him. Can you describe to me where you are right now? What's your room like? You see a piano and a guitar, and then there's my bed. here's the rest of my desk. It's like an L-shape. And then two speakers, PC. It's like, it's cozy. Now, I know you want to stay anonymous. So what should I be calling you? I guess Aaron Williams.

Aaron Williams? Okay. I went on a random name generator, click the button a bunch of times, and that's what I got. Now, you're on summer break? Yes. That's why my parents are at home and I can do this interview. I see. And so, Aaron, you. You weren't sure at first if you wanted to talk to us about this. What were you worried about? I would say that my parents are good people, but I've really kind of grown tired of all the fighting and issues that we've had over simple things such as a vaccine. Now, you're 16, right, Aaron? Yes.

So that means that you can get a Pfizer vaccine in Arizona, but your parents won't let you. What's their concern? What did they tell you when it comes to the vaccine? Originally, their concern was that the vaccine is underdeveloped and the risks aren't known. Now, what they're saying is that the long-term risks, because of it altering your DNA, quote-unquote, that they don't know about those risks. And even though my friends have taken it, my teachers have taken it, they've all been fully vaccinated for months now. And they're all doing perfectly fine.

but my parents insist that in four years, they will all suddenly start dying because of how it rewrites your DNA. So you've been at school or not been at school? I've been in school in person. Last year, when COVID originally hit around March, they took us to in-home learning. But then for the entirety of my sophomore year, I've just been at physical school. Of course, with like masks and social distancing, but near the end, when most people had gotten the vaccine, they wouldn't mask up and they would just walk around not caring about social distancing. Why is that?

How did they explain that to you? Sorry, what do you mean by that? Well, your friends, you say that some of your friends would not mask up and they would wander around. Why was that? Because they learned that it doesn't really harm them. So if they get COVID, it doesn't matter since they're going to be immune to it and they're not going to have any symptoms. Even though they might pass it on to somebody else who it could harm.

The thing is, everybody is vaccinated. Ah, okay. Pretty much everyone at my school is fully vaccinated. Wow. So you must feel kind of lonely in a certain way. Yeah. I think the moment that I really realized was when my friends were planning a gathering. And it was sort of kind of a video game tournament.

And it was going to be at one of my friends' houses. And they originally never talked to me about it. They just left me out of it. And I only found out because I saw it from one of my friends' phones a text message that popped about the gathering. And then I asked about it. They said, oh, yeah, it's been this thing that we've been working on. But you can't really come since you're not vaccinated and we don't want to take our masks off. And that's when I realized that this is pretty important.

And I'm starting to get left out of life because of not being vaccinated. Now, just to be clear, is it legal in Arizona for you to get vaccinated? without parental consent? Sadly not. Otherwise, I would have already gone and got it, because there's a CVS around one to two minutes away from my house. What's the first time you remember talking to your parents about whether you get vaccinated or not? What was that discussion like? I think the first time it was at night. We were in the living room watching TV, and Dr. Fauci was giving a sort of speech and sort of explaining why the vaccine is safe, and now it's available to most of the people and you should go get it. And as soon as they said that, my mom immediately said, I don't trust that.

And she showed me some Facebook screenshot of someone saying that it alters your genes and it's unsafe. And I obviously went and I found the research paper that says why I'm RNA vaccines are actually safe. And that's when we had our first fight because it escalated. And they had been going down the kind of Trump and far right rabbit hole for as long as I can remember. And when my teachers got it in January, I told my parents about it. And they were originally slightly hesitant, but they said, okay, we'll wait like three months and see what happens. We waited three months. And during the span of that time, they started going through all sorts of conspiracy rabbit holes. And because of that, they started changing their mind and they pushed it back to six months to a year to two years

until they just said you're never getting the vaccine. So, Aaron, I was reading a thread that you posted on Reddit and in it you basically tried to figure out if there's some way for you to get vaccinated without your parents' permission. What kind of options have you considered and can you walk me through them? I have seen many options because many people were really helpful in that post. Most of them, without knowing what state I lived in, just suggested that I go and talk to a doctor, and the doctor would be able to sign off on the vaccine saying that with the informed consent law, I would be able to get it. But in Arizona, that law doesn't exist. Someone suggested that once I get

my driving license, I could drive over to California, and some other people suggested that I would have a friend's parents take me and they be the adult because they never require any sort of proof that that person is in fact a parent. They just want an ID from them. Now, you're not going to do anything illegal, are you? I'm not. I would never, I would never do any of that because I really don't want to be breaking the law or anything similar just to get a vaccine. Now, what would happen if school required you to get vaccinated? to appear in person. Would your parents still not let you get vaccinated? I'm pretty sure, from what they've said, that if they required it, I would be able to go to

school. And they would get me the vaccine. Aaron, it's pretty normal for a teenager to fight once in a while with your parents, but this seems more complicated and much more painful. How does it feel to be so at odds with your parents about this? It hurts. In some ways, it does. But, um, Really what they've done is they've turned it around on me, and they've been saying that I'm the one hurting them, which is really funny to me because I'm the one that's suffering. They're not really suffering from not getting the vaccine. They just go to work and mask up while I'm missing out on friends gatherings and other things at school and such. But they're saying that I'm hurting them because I'm causing stress for them.

How are they going to feel if they hear this interview? They would think that I betrayed them in a sense. Because their idea is that they're protecting me from the COVID vaccine. And if I went and did an interview about why COVID vaccines are good, then they would feel like I betrayed them. Now, are you worried about them getting sick since they're not vaccinated? Yes. They're way higher risk than I am.

And they've been working their part to mask up and do social distancing. But how long are you going to keep doing this? that because if they're not going to get the vaccine, then it's going to be years of them just keeping masks on. And I can already feel that they're tired of doing that because as soon as they get home, they rip off their mask. And I don't know how they're going to keep doing this without getting a vaccine. This is so moving to me, but it seems to me that part of the reason you've tried so hard to talk to them about the vaccine is because you care about them so much and you want them to be safe. Yeah. I really don't have any other close living family and they've been my parents

for my whole life. Nothing's going to change that. They've grown me and they've helped me be who I am today. So I would really like for them to be able to get past this pandemic and carry on being the really good people that they are. Erin, I want to thank you for talking with us. All the best to you. Yeah. Thank you. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come. There she is. Hi, guys. Good morning.

Good morning, David. Nomi Fry writes about television and social media and pop culture in all their infinite forms. And lately, she's been writing about what's happening on reality television. So, Nomi, I know we're going to talk about reality TV in general, and it's got a kind of broad and interesting history. What was the one that first grabbed you? I mean, probably, you know, the very first one. one was when I was a young teen and it was probably the real world, which, you know, grabbed everyone, I think and was on MTV. And it was the first show that kind of took the premise of let's put

of these, you know, these seven strangers, as it famously says, seven strangers pick to live in a house and have their lives taped. And it was fascinating. So yeah, so that was the first show that grabbed me. And now here we are today. And actually, we've just hit a kind of historical milestone in the history of reality television, which is that the Kardashians, after 20 seasons, has finally come to an end. The last episode aired just about two weeks ago. And I do want to talk about the Kardashians because they were probably the most influential reality television show to present to us the gambit that everything is worthy of documentation. There's a lot of talk about salads.

There's a lot of talk about salads. And I can't find my cell phone. Where's my cell phone? There's a lot of discussion about that. Yes. There is something calming. And I think this is generally true of reality television, but certainly of the Kardashians of kind of letting go of your own dramas and tensions and stresses and turns.

turning to someone else's. Right. So if I'm watching a cooking video on YouTube, that's doing that trick for me while this is doing this for you. And for that, there is another very beloved show, and it's the Great British Baking Show, known as the Great British Bake Off. Everybody is so nice.

It's so nice to each other. There is a very kind of, by now, famous moment where one of the contestants becomes quite upset because his baked Alaska didn't set. He throws it in the trash, known in England, of course, as the bin. And everyone is very shocked. He threw it in the bin. Can I just say this guy has fantastic hair, too?

Yeah, his name is Ian. Okay, let's see Ian. Let's click on that. Did you have a problem with your sponge? No. Did you have a problem with your meringue? No. Did you have a problem with your ice cream?

Yes. So where's your sponge? In there? Mm-hmm. We could have tested that. Yeah, I know I didn't cope with the situation very well. Okay. I think you know that it got the better of you.

It was just a moment of your life that you want to forget. Is that right? It is. I regret it. Because, you know, we all make mistakes, and we would have liked to see that sponge. We would have liked to have seen the sponge, but he threw it in the bin. He looked devastated. He was devastated. He was devastated.

It was a devastating moment. What else should I take a look at? The Real Housewives franchise. It's going on 15 years now. It's incredibly successful. And it's just a cornucopia of rich ladies who clawed each other, right? I have a theory, though, on Housewives. It seems to me, because everybody misbehaves and the yell and scream at each other and pull each other's hair and do things that seem pretty adivistic.

And it seems like a way to watch something so that you feel superior to them. that they're acting very badly and then therefore you feel, okay, I'm not that. I'm not doing that. I'm behaving better than that. I think that's definitely true of reality television in general, of a lot of reality television where it's probably not the nicest thing to admit that this is something that we would like to see. But yeah, but it's like going to see like going to the boxing ring, right? Going to see the fight.

Like what's that about, right? Fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, just, you know. But there's also sympathy there, David. There's also sympathy. There is? It's not just, I think so.

Yes. There's, there's, you, you find yourself identifying yourself with, with some of them. So a good way, I think, to enter into this universe is the real house values of Salt Lake City. It aired during the pandemic. And my colleague, Doreen, St. Felix, wrote a really excellent TV column on it. And one of the things she pointed. things she pointed out in it, which I agree, is that it's, it's interesting to see how the Real Housewives franchise has kind of like marched with the times, right? So there are some

much more kind of, oh, current discussions of race that are starting to enter into the show, which is quite interesting. And, okay, so there are two characters. One is a black a Pentecostal woman, and she is a leader in her church. And her nemesis, this season is Jen Shah, who is Polynesian and Muslim. And in the clip we're going to listen to, Jen Shah is recounting the skirmish they had to her husband who is black. Mary all of a sudden freaks out and says, I would never say the things you say. you're a hoodlum. I was so sorry, honey.

I was like, what is wrong with you? Like how you say, oh, if I go to a 7-Eleven and there's black people, I go to a different 7-Eleven? Maybe I was so hurt. Because guess what? That's my son, my nephew, my family that's at that 7-Eleven that you won't go to because you're too... These are kind of important conversations that are happening,

but they are also used as a cudgel and the kind of power play that happens anyway among these ladies. It's just that the discourse has changed. So I think it's a really interesting and kind of like new way to think about the housewives as kind of incorporating these conversations into their usual conflicts. Do you have a last pick for us? Yes, I do.

So one last show that I think is fascinating. I've watched it some. I myself want to watch more of it, but there's just so many seats. and so many spinoffs, it's been hard to catch up, is called 90-day fiancé, and it's on TLC. And the concept is that these are couples. One of them is American. The other one is from another country. And the idea is that the foreigner comes to America to be with their betrothed, I guess,

or at least girlfriend or boyfriend. And they have to get married within 9. 90 days because those are the conditions of the K-1 visa. And so the stakes of the drama here are bureaucratic, right? Which is kind of amazing because it's the drama of everyday life. And it's about normal people. We were going to watch a clip in which a character who's from Tunisia goes to talk to a lawyer to understand what marrying his American girlfriend might mean. with the 90 days.

If you don't want to get married, you're going to have to leave the United States. I won't know how long time it will take till I have that, I don't know how to say it, the green card. Now sometimes it could be a few months or eight months, ten months a year. It just depends. But I don't know why it takes so long time. There's a lot of fraud,

and the immigration folks are concerned about that. So that's kind of straight up. drama. Yeah. It just seems even just talking with you this brief time that the range of these shows is a lot greater than I had any idea of that it wasn't just kind of my mind taking a vacation and watching people look for their cell phones or wallpaper their walls. Yeah, I mean, there's that too.

And it has its place. Sure. But does it affect you? Does it have greater power in your view as a reality show as opposed to scripted drama? Not necessarily. each of them has its own power, I guess. There is something quite affecting about seeing, and, you know, problematic often,

about seeing real people suffering, you know, confused in dire straits. And while all the questions about the kind of ethics of it still stand, and these are things that I ask myself. And sometimes I feel like some shows cross, some lines. I do think that looking at people, you can really learn a lot. You know, people look to television,

whether it's scripted or not, to tell them about how life is lived. The New Yorkers Know Me Fry. You can read her on reality television and much more at new yorker.com. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour and I'm David Remnick. Thanks for listening today. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts,

with additional music by Alexis Quadrato. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.