The New Yorker Radio Hour - A Moderate Republican Wants to Primary Donald Trump in 2020

Episode Date: March 1, 2019

The former Massachusetts governor Bill Weld is launching what looks like a political suicide mission. He recently announced an exploratory committee to challenge Trump in the primary. He sees a pathway to victory that runs through his neighboring state of New Hampshire, to other blue-leaning states where Republican voters might be open to a moderate candidate for the nomination. He says that some “billionaires” will back his long-shot bid, and he’s betting that the damage from investigations may end Trump’s charmed political life. Plus, Evan Osnos on the news from Washington this week, and Rachel Syme with three fashion tips for David Remnick. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

From One World Trade Center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Running in a primary election against a sitting president is generally speaking of futile effort. To come up with a plausible primary challenge, you've got to think back pretty far, maybe to 1980, when Edward Kennedy challenged President Jimmy Carter for the Democratic nomination. and even then Kennedy failed. But just about everything in the presidency of Donald Trump has been unprecedented. So we shouldn't be very surprised to see something unusual

in the 2020 campaign. And it looks like Bill Weld is going to run against Donald Trump to become the Republican nominee. Weld is a lawyer and a former Justice Department official and he served as governor of Massachusetts for much of the 1990s. In 2016, he ran as vice president on the Libertarian Party ticket.

In national politics these days, we don't often see Republicans like Bill Weld anymore. He's a New England moderate that is fiscally conservative and socially liberal. But Weld is not at all moderate in his views on Donald Trump.

They say the president has captured the Republican Party in Washington, as he himself might tweet, sad. It's even sadder that Republicans in Washington, and many of them, exhibit all the symptoms of Stockholm syndrome, identifying with their captor. The truth is that we've wasted an enormous amount of time by humoring this president,

indulging him in his narcissism and his compulsive irrational behaviors. I reached Bill Weld at his office in Boston last week. Governor, I don't mean to be flip, but what are you thinking? You've decided to run for president for the president for the president. for the Republican Party against a sitting president, President Trump, and that presents all kinds of, let's just say, challenges and body blows to you inevitably. Why are you doing this? Oh, I think it presents delightful possibilities.

You know, I've been watching closely for some time. I was even on the ticket in the last election, so I've seen everything that's unfolded since then. And the truth is we know a lot more about Donald J. Trump and his style in public life than we did two years ago. And I just can't sit quietly by anymore and witness what he's doing both internationally and domestically. I think it's a train wreck. Well, you say it's a train wreck. What are the bill of particulars that you plan to present as a candidate in the Republican Party? Well, I think that on the international front, the president,

and has totally upended the correct order of things. He's insulting our allies. And, you know, his favorite foreign leaders are the ones who are autocratic or despotic. I think his interactions with the Justice Department, starting with Jim Comey, even Jeff Sessions, don't bespeak any notion of fidelity to law. The sign that's on the Justice Department building at 10th and Constitution and Washington, a government of laws and not of men, that's pretty deep in our history. And the president seems to have no interest in that. There's just a lot of issues out there in addition to the

bedrock issue of comportment in office. There's climate change, there's treaties. I thought it was a blunder not to join the Trans-Pacific Partnership, for example. The president of the United States has to take an oath to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. I don't think the president is complying with that oath. Within the Republican Party, Donald Trump has an approval rating in the high 80s. So what gives you hope running against a president who's despite it all, extraordinarily popular with his base? Well, you know, they say six months is an eternity in politics. six months is an eternity. I don't know what two years is. You know, I think many people are making a mistake now of assuming that nothing is going to change, that no developments in the Justice

Department will have any impact whatsoever, that the economy will change exactly as it is. There will be no blowups internationally. You know, those are not good assumptions. Part of running against Donald Trump for office and part of being a member of the fourth estate and part of doing almost anything in opposition to or critical of the president is to be on the receiving end of his attacks, his tweets. Are you prepared to receive a nickname and much worse from Donald Trump? Yeah, I am. How do you think he'll go at you?

Probably ignoring as long as he can and then ridiculing. But look, I checked my privacy at the door a long time ago, decades ago. But this is different, isn't it? I mean, running against, you know, being in political. opposition to say John Kerry in Massachusetts is a very different thing than running head-to-head against Donald Trump. You're not playing by the Marcus of Queensberry rules anymore. I don't know. I find it kind of appealing running against the incumbent here. I mean, there's so much that I want to do differently. And I find this particular race quite appealing

in terms of, you know, how much there is to be done. I mean, we're looking at the Aegean stables there. Now, are you, to mix the metaphor, G.N. Stables, but is this a kind of suicide mission to, in the service of the country? No. I mean, I do think it's in service of the country, but the point is to win the election. And, you know, I feel more than prepared to discharge the duties of that office. If I had to start Monday, I think I could. I think I know how to surround myself with good people. I did it in the U.S. Attorney's Office, the Justice Department. And as governor, I believe in unleashing everybody's energies. That's not the president's way. His way is to try to divide people, stir up the pot, set groups against each other. And that's the opposite of the duties of a president of the United States. Governor, part of running for president, as you well know, running for anything,

is the ability to raise money. Considering what the numbers are now, how are you going to raise money sufficient to the task. You know, everybody that we've spoken to about this race has said, oh, if you're running as an R, I'm in. I'll host a party. I'm all in. Can you talk about who? I'm not going to name names, but I are there talking to people that they've decided that you're the guy? Yeah, there are billionaires who lean my way, and I've spoken to some of them and I'll be speaking to more of them. I could never understand why some politicians, you know, Jack Camp, George McGovern, they really don't care at all for the fundraising side of the business. I like it.

I think it makes you sharpen your message. And if you can't sell yourself, what can you sell? What's happened to your party? Why has it moved so far to the right? And why has it been so obeisance to Donald Trump? You know, I don't really understand that. I do think that both parties have moved to the edge. It's partly gerrymandering.

It's partly that they all want to be reelected. And the way to get reelected is to raise lots of money. And the way to raise lots of money is to scare people by saying you have to vote for the R party or the D party because otherwise the D party, the R party might win. And then we would all be involved in irretrievable ruin. And if that sounds like a sick situation, it is. It's a sick situation. I think some Republicans have comforted.

themselves by thinking that Donald Trump is an aberration within the party. But other people think that he's the logical end result of decades of the party elite, the GOP party elite, whipping up the base, whether it was the Tea Party movement or other aspects of the party. And you've got this very, very strong racist strain that's come to the fore. How do you battle that? How do you kill it? Well, I'm going to publicize it.

I'm going to remind everybody that during the 2016 campaign, the Trump campaign circulated images of George Lincoln Rockwell. George Lincoln Rockwell was the founder of the American Nazi Party, and the white supremacists who saw those knew exactly who George Lincoln Rockwell was, and they heard the dog whistle loud and clear. It was almost like a clandestine campaign because so much of it was conducted with words that weren't uttered publicly. Just to be clear, you're putting the President of the United States in the same basket as the late head of the American Nazi Party.

Am I correct? That's tough stuff. I'm putting them in the same sentence. But, you know, I think the president, he makes no bones about the fact. He says America first, which was Charles Lindbergh's fifth column before World War II. And he says, I'm a nationalist. Well, it is the party that took over in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. So that's the nationalist workers' party.

Governor, you've broken with the president and really the rest of the party on climate change. What do you see as the best policy to reduce carbon emissions, considering the scale that they're on and the sense of emergency that surrounds it? Well, I think we should rejoin the Paris Climate Accords for openers and adopt percentages that are consonant with our responsibility. On the issue of climate, there's a divide between the developed nations and lesser developed countries. I think what President Trump would like to do is say, well, we've gotten the benefits of the industrial revolution.

Now, you have to agree, you and your rainforests, not to emit any carbon dioxide. And we don't care if you ever develop, because we've got ours. Again, that's an unattractive point of view. And what do you make of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's proposal for a Green New Deal? You know, I've got to study that more than I have. It sounds pretty expensive. And I think some of what's coming out of the left hand of the Democratic Party is probably more than I could sit still for. But I do think that at bottom, Europe has its monuments and its cathedrals, and we've got our mountains and our valleys and our rivers and our streams, and we better damn well take care of them.

And when I was U.S. attorney, I brought the suit to clean up Boston Harbor. And it was very expensive, and it took years and years and years, but the harbor is now swimmable and fishable, which it sure wasn't when I started. That's the sort of thing we got to do. Now, do you think that he'll debate you? Is there any chance in the world that he gets on a platform with you? He might, you know, to show he could crush me like a bug. I think his advisors will say ignore, ignore this fellow as long as you can, assuming I get in. And what's the scenario for not being ignored? It's, it's winning New Hampshire or showing in New Hampshire that you have some strength there and then what? Well, if you show strength in New Hampshire, then the Trump

operation, campaign operation, has to take you seriously. And I'm confident of doing well there. I think that all the New England states could be in play, the mid-Atlantic states, certainly. California, Oregon, Washington, the states in the West, the Intermountain West, those are all possibly friendly, possibly in play. And last would be the Rust Belt, the states that elected the president in 2016. and in several of those there's been a turnaround and the other party won everything in the 2018 election. So the situation may not be the same on the ground as it was in 2016. Finally, Governor, maybe the truest thing the president has ever said is that he could walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and get away with it. Why do you think he's managed to hang on so well, relatively so well, for so long?

Well, he's had a great run being Icarus and flying near the sun, that's for sure. But, you know, the wax in Icarus's wings melted and he plunged into the sea. You just don't know how long a charmed life is going to keep on going in politics. Governor Weld, thank you so much. Thank you, David. Always a pleasure. Bill Weld is a former governor of Massachusetts and is running as a Republican for the presidency. in 2020. Over the past two years, I have been smeared as a rat by the president of the United States. The truth is much different. And let me take a brief moment to introduce myself. My name is Michael

Dean Cohen. Hey there. Evan. Evan Osnos, you've been writing about Washington for the New Yorker for years. You lived in China, covered North Korea and written about it. I have to think that Last Wednesday, there was a cosmic collision of your interests and events in the United States. You had the spectacle of Michael Cohen testifying in the House of Representatives and in all its lurid detail. And then just hours later, the collapse of a summit between the U.S. President and the North Korean leader. What do you make of all this? This is what we call a full day in Washington, that's for sure. I think in a strange way you have two events that are 8,000 miles apart but are connected.

They are both in a way about the collision of Donald Trump's ability to muscle a certain reality into existence. And to some degree, he was doing that with North Korea as well. He was telling people that ultimately we would get to denuclearization. North Korea would give up this nuclear arsenal, which his intelligence apparatus has told him it will probably never give up. And he was hoping that by sheer force of personality and will, by declaring a great friendship and declaring a great relationship, that that might actually turn out to be true, and the reality was that North Korea was not willing to do what it was that he wanted him to do.

And running, of course, in the background, looming over. for them, I think more in the foreground for him than the background, was the fact that at home, American people were getting one of the most extraordinarily lurid and detailed descriptions of life with Donald Trump that we've ever heard. There was almost nothing like the Cohen testimony in the history of Donald Trump's moment in politics. Well, what did Michael Cohen say that can change the mind of anybody that didn't believe all these things already? in some ways I think the potential value that he holds in shaping how Americans think about Donald Trump is that he speaks of the convert. He is somebody who believed in Donald Trump. He hitched his wagon,

his soul, his everything to Donald Trump, and then watched his life unravel as a result. And in some ways that gives him credibility that Trump's fans, his voters would never bestow on somebody who is just peering down on Trump from a television studio in Washington and New York and saying that he is not fit to be president. Well, what were the most compelling new leads to come out of the testimony? There was nothing that came out of it that is immediately going to drive this man out of office. There's no question about that. But we now know, for instance, that he was more involved, personally involved to the degree of writing checks while in office, in the Oval Office, he was still facilitating the reimbursement of Michael Cohen for hush payments to the adult film star, Stormy Daniels.

This basically puts to rest any notion that as the president once said he had no idea about any payments. It's just his own signature now betrays that. And there's another big fact. This is a relatively new one that I think could end up being consequential, is that it appears that when Donald Trump talked about the size of his fortune, it wasn't just for vanity purposes. He may have also been doing this on paper in loan applications, for instance, when he was considering buying the Buffalo bills, he, it appears, may have misstated his holdings to such a degree that that could begin to attract investigators into the subject of bank fraud. So that may be a new angle that he's going to have to contend with. So this doesn't go away. This, this testimony. This testimony,

leads to more testimony, more hearings, more jeopardy? Absolutely. And more names, I'm afraid. We heard about his finance people. We heard about somebody named Matthew Calamari, who may, in fact, become more consequential. So this process is at the beginning. We've now entered a new phase in which it turns out, as we know, it really matters who controls the House of Representatives. And those committees are now empowered by Democrats with a much greater,

sense of determination to try to persuade Americans with the voices of those who know Donald Trump best and who have worked by his side of what kind of pressure. Evan Osnossos is a staff writer and you can read him on all things political at New Yorker.com. Evan, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks, David. I'm David Remnick, and that's almost it for today. But before we go, I want to introduce you to Rachel Syme. How are you?

I'm very excited about this because, as you know, my expertise is. Exactly this. Yeah, I mean, you're so fashionable. I like talking to Rachel because she writes a column for us about stuff that, well, I've got to admit it, I'm a little oblivious to. Fashion, style, consumer culture. So Rachel's going to bring me up to speed on all the trends. Anyway, Rachel, I'm delighted you're here. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.

And, you know, usually we're talking about music and books and things, and I at least have a leg up somewhat. But now you're going to bring me into a world, I know. so little about. How fun. And you're going to have some recommendations that I am champing at the bit to hear about. So what's the first? So there's a meme, as fun as that is, that's been going around the internet for the last week or two, where you Google Rihanna and your birthday. And it's sort of like a special kind of horoscope where whatever she's wearing on your birthday, the first outfit that comes up sort of says something essential about your personality. Can we do, should I do a birthday? Yes. Okay, October 29th. I won't tell you what year.

Yeah, so I'm so excited for you to do a close reading of this, but this is Rihanna and an Am, she's at the Amfar Gala to celebrate Tom Ford, and she's in Tom Ford. Okay, whatever I say about this is going to get me fired. So why don't I leave it to you because she... I can describe it if you want. I really wish you would. So this was this era a few years back when Tom Ford was doing extremely revealing gowns, and I think what she has on is sort of a...

white Grecian column dress with a slit up the leg, sort of a thigh-high stocking. A slit up to what my grandmother would call up to her pupic. Yep, up to her pupic. And then she's wearing what I think the people in the biz call pasties in the decolette area. What biz would that be? What biz do they call in Puffington? Fashion burlesque, all of it together. So, and she has sort of this kind of,

neck collar that's either nun like or dominatrix like depending on how you want to think about it. So I wonder what this says about you, David, if this is your horoscope. I mean, maybe it's just like risk-taking. Boldness? I'll go with boldness. Sure. Yeah. But I think the meme is really fun because I think it's this idea that this one person is a kind of cipher through understanding yourself.

And she has so much fun with fashion. I mean, the thing about Rihanna is she's never had a boring outfit in her life. What's next up? I wanted to talk a little bit about a podcast that came out last year that was one of my very favorites, that the fashion journalist and historian Avery Truffleman hosts called Articles of Interest. And it is part of this network, 99% Invisible. That's kind of a design show where they go deep into the worlds of architecture and objects and their history. But they hadn't had a fashion show, so she piloted that for them. But my favorite episode and one I wanted to tell you about was the third, which was all about

the history of pockets and clothing. Man's great evolutionary advantage is the creation of tools. The problem is we're not marsupials. We need to carry them somehow. And this idea of who has access to the tools they need. Who can walk through the world comfortably and securely? This is what we are talking about when we talk about pockets. So she talks to fashion historians, curators, designers, people who are experts in menswear and women's wear, going all the way back saying, why did women's pockets become so small?

Because there's become a kind of feminist discussion in fashion that surrounds pockets. Does the dress have pockets or not? And if it does, it's pro-woman. I don't know how you live without them. We've gone from kangaroos to cargo shorts and now they've disappeared. Yeah, and it's about what you carry through the world, what you conceal. There's so much going on with a pocket. And it was funny because when I was watching the Oscars,

so many people were waiting for women to put their hand in their dress to show that it had a pocket, almost as a kind of sort of secret signifier that they knew what they were doing. Like Olivia Coleman's dress had pockets. Now, you know who had pockets and I thought looked fantastic. I'm not sure I could carry it off with Spike Lee. I mean, he looked amazing. He had that prince homage and he had the Gold Air Jordans that he had specifically. made just for him. And he was so in the beret. And the high pants to show him off. It was fantastic.

Yeah. And I love that Barbara Streisand wore a beret to a formal event. No one else can get away with it. So the last thing, yeah, I want to show you is perfume. So, you know, I'm a perfume obsessive. And I... Now, what does that mean to be a perfume obsessive? I recently was a judge for something called the Ardenal Faction Awards, and I had to smell 200 perfumes blind. Isn't it kind of after a while after the... After a few of them? They tell you when you become a judge, you're all allowed to smell five a day.

Ah. Because they, otherwise you'll blow out your sinus and not give everything it's fair shake. So anyways, I brought you two pretty interesting ones to smell, though, that are new. And there's this new trend in perfume that's very similitude, trying to smell like things that you would find in the world rather than just flowers or wood. It's this idea that you could recreate an actual thing. So I wanted to give you two that were new, that were like that. I mean, there are, there is a pizza performance.

If you so desire to smell like pizza. But the... I'm getting a little hungry already just thinking about it. There's all kinds of food perfumes. The gourmand category has exploded in recent years. But, and this is one of... You're not pulling my leg. Nope.

Really? Yeah, I mean, there's... It's like a French fries perfume. There definitely is all of that. And those kind of fall into the novelty category. But on the more wearable end, there are perfumes that smell like fresh-baked bread, which is a smell that everybody thinks they want to smell like. Like, it's, you know, like Hansel and Greta.

It's drawing them down there. Do you smell that? In reality, I think it's a little yeasty. Yeasty it is. Okay, so this one is kind of like that. It's a red bottle. Yeah, so it's a red bottle. It's a maroon bottle.

It's a new perfume from Tom Ford called Lost Cherry, which was... Let's do the thing. Right on the pulse point. Right on the pulse point. I think this smells like... One spritz would have been enough. Cherry icing or an icy from the movie theater. It really does smell like cherry.

So I shall smell the rest of the day. I know. I'm so sorry that I've done this to you. It's the best thing that's happened to me in weeks. Isn't it funny though? It is. It is. It sounds like a Twizzler.

Okay. I'm in love with my left wrist. So then, okay, he's love with less cherry. And then this is from... Let's keep that wrist over at bay. This is from Sir Trudon, which is a company that once only made very, very fancy candles that, you know, would burn in designers' homes and then they branched down into perfume. And this one is called Revolution.

Right, Rich. Sprits away, Rachel. I'm going to do one. It's supposed to smell... Whoa. Right. Whoa. What is that? Okay, so the French Revolution is the inspiration for this.

It smells like the French Revolution. And the idea is gunpowder, and isn't that just what it smells like, right? I've got cherry on my left wrist and gum powder on my right. I mean, cherry gunpowder is your new signature scent. Oh, my God. But can you believe that that happened? I mean, it's asphalt, it's the kickback from a rifle. What's in it?

You know, I think probably what you're smelling most is cade, which is like a... It's kind of a leathery, a tar that kind of smells a little bit like that smoky ash that's at the bottom of an ashtray. By the way, the smell that's now overwhelming in this office is beyond. Never apologize. Never explained. Wow, what a revelation. Rachel, thank you so much. Thank you.

It's a pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much. You can find everything Rachel Syme is written for us at New Yorker.com. I'm David Remnick. And that's it for today. Thanks for being with us. And if you've enjoyed the show, I just want to remind you you can subscribe to the podcast

and catch up on anything you missed. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Ave Cario, Rianan & Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Fralman,

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