The New Yorker Radio Hour - Bernie Sanders Ascends, and a High School Simulates the Election

Episode Date: February 14, 2020

Bernie Sanders’s win in New Hampshire has established him as the Democratic Presidential front-runner. Centrist Democrats regard him not as a challenge but more like an existential threat: they assume that only a moderate—and certainly not a democratic socialist—can sway critical swing voters and win in November. Are they right? David Remnick speaks with Keith Ellison, the Minnesota Attorney General who served as co-chair of the Democratic National Committee after that organization infamously tried to spike Sanders’s candidacy in 2016. Ellison says that the clarity of Sanders’s mission and his appeal to economic problems can win over struggling voters in both parties. Then Nathaniel Rakich, a pollster for FiveThirtyEight, presents what the data indicates about Sanders’s chances. Plus, a civics project goes off the rails when high-school students run a simulation of the 2020 primaries.  New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

From One World Trade Center in Manhattan, this is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. So thank the people of New Hampshire for a great victory tonight. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Bernie Sanders right now is the frontrunner in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. For some in the party, this is some kind of nightmare. They say he's too far out to the left, out of touch with votes. voters, that nominating Sanders is the best way to guarantee Donald Trump a second term. For many others in the Democratic coalition, Bernie Sanders isn't just a frontrunner. He's the

very future of the party. In politics, I believe you make the odds. Your energy, your support can change the odds from looking bleak to looking pretty good. That's Keith Ellison. He served as the deputy chair of the Democratic National Committee before becoming the Attorney General of Minnesota, and he recently endorsed Bernie Sanders for president. I reached Keith Ellison in his office in Minneapolis. I just thought economic program and his basic approach to organizing, and the fact that he got arrested for civil rights protests, made me think that he had the right program and had the right approach to mass organization and organizing to move that program forward. He did surprisingly well in 2016, or at least he surprised a lot of people.

Yeah, he did. But there were still a lot of voters there who thought, I don't know, this guy is too left, he's too radical, too ideological for me. Now it's four years later. And there are still a lot of people who seem to feel that way, and you see them voting for Klobuchar or Buttigieg. What's the argument

you'd make to those people about why they shouldn't be afraid to vote for Bernie Sanders? Well, I mean, Franklin Roosevelt, I mean, in 1930s, Some people thought a minimum wage, you know, the Wagner Act, labor rights, people thought that NLRB or rural electrification was so radical or social security. Now we take these things as like basics.

In 1968, 17 different states had it to be illegal for a black person to marry a white person. Now people don't bet an eye. A few years ago, we thought gay marriage was an impossibility. and one day we're going to take Medicare for all as a basic pay family medically we're going to say yeah this is how civilized societies are organized what do you say to the

voters who say yeah okay Franklin Roosevelt always called himself a liberal not a socialist which is a fact this guy he caucuses with the Democrats but he's an independent I will tell you that I do reject this idea

that Byrd is not a Democrat because at the end of the day what is the Democratic Party other than the values that it stands for the dignity of work, the dignity of labor, civil and human rights for everybody, a fair economy, social inclusion, and who exemplifies that better than Bernie, right? There's a, there are a number of people who are quote-unquote Democrats who do not vote with the Democratic mainstream nearly as often as Bernie does. he's taken on the leadership within the Senate Democratic caucus in terms of outreach and engagement.

And I can tell you as a member of Congress for 12 years, there's nobody who doubts Bernie's commitment to democratic values or even working with Democratic colleagues. So I think that's a red herring. You know, I really do. Mr. Elson, the theory of the case in the sort of Klobuchar camp and the Buttigieg camp is the following, that this race is going to come down to a handful of states, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, and so on and so forth, and that their ability to win in those states is way higher than Bernie Sanders. You obviously disagree. Bernie Sanders obviously disagrees. What's your theory of the case on that? For specific reason, because I don't think your average voter thinks, oh, is this left or is this right? Is it a conservative

or is it's liberal? What they ask themselves is, can I afford this or not? If you go to farmers in Ohio and you say, you know what, you worry about your dairy farm. We'll worry about you getting health care. Some of them are going to say, that sounds all right to me. I've always wanted to keep my farm. I'm not sure we could even survive. If I had Medicare for all, that would change my life. I mean, you go to those same dairy farmers and you say, you know what, we're going to get tough on immigrants.

and some of them dairy farmers are going to tell you, who's going to milk these cows if you kick Jose and Yolanda out of here? How am I going to make this farm work? People do not make 40,000-foot ideological decisions. People are like, I don't know what you're talking about. What I'm talking about is keeping my farm. I'm talking about keeping this factory open. And that is where I think Bernie really sells,

even in places that we think might be more. attractive to a quote unquote centrist the people there may have a more socially traditional way of life that doesn't mean that they're not hurting economically I'm telling you they're gonna listen to a leader who says you know we're gonna actually try to solve some problems we got I got something for you we're gonna do rural lessification somebody might say well that socialism to the farmer who got who benefited from that program they say hey I can turn the lights on in my farmhouse whereas before I couldn't you you are intimate

familiar with Bernie Sanders and the Bernie Sanders campaign of 2016. How has he changed in those four years? How has the campaign changed? Well, I think that the campaign is far more sophisticated than it used to be. Bernie is better known than he was before Bernie's philosophy has soaked in and actually become really mainstream. I mean, and if you watch those debates, man, the question wasn't, well, what should we do about health care? The question was, well, is Bernie's idea perfect or does it need some refinement? Elizabeth said, yeah, well, you know, here's how we pay for it. And then Pete says, well, I'm loved for it, but I'm for this other option. And everybody else is sort of like making a refinement on Bernie's ideas. Bernie has truly captured the

ideological victory here. And it's not just on Medicare. It's also on free college. It's also on the whole marijuana discussion. I mean, Bernie has changed the landscape in terms of what issues it is possible to even be for. Why did he capture the moment and not Elizabeth Warren? They were very, very similar. Well, I think that there are essentially two reasons. One is that Bernie, I mean, you can click up old photos of Bernie and here he is being dragged off because he's protesting in favor of fair housing in Chicago.

Bernie just has a level of credibility. I mean, he is for what he's for. I mean, people hear politicians, today I'm for something. Yesterday, it wasn't when it wasn't popular. Bernie's like, you know, popular or unpopular, Bernie Sanders is Bernie Sanders through and through. And in the meat grinder, which is Washington, you know, you need somebody who's going to stay who they are. You know, so I think that Elizabeth Warren, you know, just Plano doesn't have that, that planet kind of history.

You know, I also think that Bernie has really deepened his organizational. I mean, he really believes in organizing in a way, not just for a campaign, but for a social change. And I think he says quite often that if you're going to make changes that are going to truly increase the wealth and income of poor and working class people, you will need a sustained mass movement to drive that change. And I don't know if Elizabeth has spoken to those issues in quite the same convincing, compelling way. But I've got to tell you, I'm a big fat fan of Elizabeth Warren. I think she's an awesome person and she has done a lot for this country and this race. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Any time, man. Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. A debate. A real divide is coming into view. On one side, you've got supporters saying that Bernie Sanders is the president. progressive future of the Democratic Party. And on the other, you've got centress and party elders saying that Sanders is inevitably going to lead to a disastrous loss in November. Nathaniel Rakech is an election analyst for the data news site 538, and he spends most of his time studying polls and trying to figure out what exactly voters actually think.

Nathaniel, unlike the vote-counting catastrophe in Iowa, I think we now know who's won the New Hampshire primary. Tell me about the shape of that win for Bernie Sanders. Did he perform as forecasted? Did he exceed expectations or did he come up short? He did come a little bit short of what we at 538 were predicting, but I don't really want to oversell that or read too much into it. I don't really see it as a sign of weakness. I know a lot of people are talking about, oh, he won 60% of the vote in New Hampshire in 2016. He's from a neighboring state. He should have done better than this. I think that's a little bit disingenuous. In 2016, obviously, it was a two-candidate field. You're not going to be able to get 60% of the vote in a 5-bazillion way field the way that it is right now. Plus the fact the electorate is different. It's a different composition of the electorate in 2016. You had a contested Republican primary. This year you didn't really. And so maybe some of the folks who are more moderate, maybe Republican-leaning, maybe wanted to jump into the Democratic primary instead, voted for somebody like Buttigieg who has more of a unity message. People shouldn't read too much into it. This was a expected, but

solid win for Bernie Sanders in New Hampshire. Now, when you look at the numbers and the polling data, who do you think poses the biggest threat to Sanders being the eventual Democratic nominee? Is it clearly Pete Buttigieg, or is there a more complicated answer to that? No, I actually don't think it's Pete Buttigieg at all. In particular, his struggles with non-white voters. Yeah, I think if I had to choose one other candidate, it would be Biden. You know, he is still second in the national polls. He still probably is looking good in several Super Tuesday states. Despite the miserable performance in Iowa and even worse in New Hampshire. Those two states were never demographically great fits for him. I think that if the first two states

had been Nevada and South Carolina, we'd be having a very different conversation, frankly, and a lot of that is just pure luck. That said, I do think that, you know, with every kind of unsettled results we get, for instance, in Iowa, I think you had five different candidates getting national delegates in New Hampshire. It looks like it's going to be three. Every state that votes that gives delegates in a very scattershot way increases the chances that there's going to be a contested convention, which is honestly almost as likely as an outright Sanders nomination at this point. Just a couple of weeks ago, the Atlantic ran an op-ed titled, Bernie Can't Win. And a couple of weeks before that, the New York Times ran an op-ed titled, of course, Bernie

can win. According to the data, which of those op-es is correct? Of course, Bernie can win. You know, look, he won the New Hampshire primary. He won the most votes in the Iowa caucuses. I believe the only candidate to win the nomination without winning either Iowa or New Hampshire was Bill Clinton in 1992. Sanders, in many ways, you know, perhaps not ideologically, but resembles Donald Trump in that he is a factional candidate with strong support, very passionate supporters among a certain part of the party. And a lot of people assumed in 2016 that Trump wouldn't be able to expand that support. But of course, he was able to do so. And I think that that's true of Sanders. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for this idea that he has a ceiling of support.

He's popular among the overall party. I think his approval rating within the Democratic Party is at somewhere like 70%. So it's not like there's a huge block of anti-Sanders. voters out there. Let's imagine Bernie is the eventual nominee of the Democratic Party. How does he do in the polls when stacked up against Donald Trump? You know, I want to start off with the caveat that early general election polls have not been very accurate historically. That said, you know, to the extent that they do mean something, you know, Sanders does okay. But really all candidates do fairly similarly, I think as a result of our polarized environment right now. But that's a popular vote assessment, right?

It's not a state-by-state assessment of how the electoral college would come out. Right. So sometimes you'll see a poll of Florida specifically that shows a head-to-head matchup between them. But yeah, I'm talking right now about national polls. So Bernie Sanders, when he answers the question of beating or not beating Trump in the general election, his theory of the case is that he is not so much running as a case. candidate as his leader of a movement and that this movement will bring out unlikely voters, not only in states like New York and California, but it will also bring over voters in the

essential counties in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and Michigan. The theory of the case of his opponents is that Bernie will be painted as a left-wing ideologue to such a degree that there's no way he will get those votes in the crucial states, and he will lose an electoral college to Donald Trump. How do you see the numbers going? And I know it's early. Look, I think that historically speaking, all other things being equal, more moderate candidates or candidates basically closer to the median voter have performed a bit better than more ideological candidates. That said, there is a lot of political science evidence that that gap is decreasing and may even be gone. now, again, because of the polarization, people basically are like, I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat,

and I'm going to vote for this person because I hate the other side so much. On the other hand, I think that Sanders makes a good point that there are clearly voters that he has turned out in the 2016 election in particular, who wouldn't be ordinary voters, younger voters in particular. He's very popular among. I think it's too early to know whether he's turning out those same people here in 2020. Again, because of polarization, his kind of left-wing ideas wouldn't necessarily hurt him that much, but say they hurt him by three points in, you know, some of the suburban counties in, say, Pennsylvania or something like that. Well, let's look at those key states for 2020, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, even Ohio.

Can Sanders win those states? Yeah, you know, the national political environment is the most important factor for that. right now it looks like the environment leans Democratic by a few points, maybe four or five. It's enough to put those states into play. In particular, I think about Wisconsin and Michigan, he does have a good argument that he would be able to appeal to a lot of the people who voted for Trump, not necessarily out of any ideological agreement with him, although maybe they do agree with him on things like trade, but because they just feel like the system isn't working and they want to take a stab at something kind of at a radical. departure, and Sanders would certainly represent that. I think it is harder to make the case that he would be able to win places like Arizona, Texas, places where kind of affluent suburban voters have put those states into play for Democrats. You know, Donald Trump has been in office now for

more than three years, and his base is as solid as solid can be, but he has never cracked 50% that I know of in job approval ratings. And yet, Democratic voters and many independent, who dislike him are not only terrified that Trump will win, some are even resigned to the idea. How do you answer that? It's true that Trump has a very poor approval rating historically for a president. Basically, Gerald Ford was the only president with a worse approval rating. But on the other hand, it's certainly possible at a win, again, going back to polarization. So right now, in our approval rating average, Trump has an all.

almost 44% approval rating, which is actually among the highest that he has had. And, you know, if you were to take that literally, he has a 44% approval rating and a 52% disapproval rating. Obviously, he would lose the election if those were the final vote totals. But I think that you do have to factor in the fact that this is a 50-50 Democratic Republican country. He'll probably overperform his approval rating a little bit. And once you start getting into the 47%, 48% territory, that's when you start to wonder, well, even if he loses the popular vote again, the Electoral College could still help him out because there are several states that are just a little bit Republican-leaning and, you know, he could win those states and lose the national and popular vote

and still be elected president. Thank you very much, Nathaniel. All right. Thank you, David. Nathaniel Rakeach of 538. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with much more to come. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Josh Rothman is an editor at The New Yorker, and he's been spending a lot of time in the last few months, in high school. So we're at Townsend Harris High School in Queens, and this is an amazing school. It's like one of the best high schools in New York City.

We're in the elevator. And we've just arrived on the day that Townsend Harris's presidential election simulation is kicking off. This election simulation Josh is talking about is a pretty big deal at Townsend Harris. The school has been doing it for 25 years. All the kids in the senior class participate and they play different roles, candidates, journalists, pundits, even super PACs. And then the entire school gets together and votes.

The goal is to try to get the whole political reality and compress it down into something the size of a high school. And this is our third year going back. So I love coming back to Townsend Harris to see the election simulation. It's a little freaky because you're seeing our political craziness. reflected in, you know, these kids who are encountering it for the first time. But it's also, you know, really great to see how fully and creatively they inhabit the roles that they've been assigned. We have to put our foot down and say that our democracy is not for sale.

My name is Elizabeth Warren. I know what's broken and I got a plan to fix it. And that's why you should vote for me on Election Day. Thank you. The students started their campaigns in September right after school started. Hi. How are you? Okay.

Who are you? Oh, I'm Miss Kamala Harris. That's awesome. What do you think about the real Kamala Harris? So from what I know of her, I think she's a pretty rad dude. All right, Sigh, who's up next? Bernie Sanders, is this guy still alive? All right, Colonel Sanders.

Come on up. We will have many. I will fight for you for your children and every American under my presidency. So right now they're running the 2020 primaries, Democratic and Republican, and every candidate has a full staff and has to raise money, has a war chest, puts out ads, just like a real campaign. Hi, I'm Jamie Barronoff. I am the election simulation coordinator.

I'm also a teacher at Townsend Harris. So you guys have a crazy year to simulate. I think we do. Yeah. So, you know, the number one rule we say of the simulation is keep it as real as possible. But certainly when we have a Trump, it's, I encourage students to kind of use their best judgment. So I feel like personally, if he says it in the real world, you can say it in the simulation. Wait till you see the boy who's playing Trump. Good morning, America. Are we recording? This is live? Good morning, America. How's it going, everybody? My name is Donald J. Trump. So when Trump was new, when we covered this simulation in 2015, no one had seen Donald Trump as a candidate before. You know, everyone was trying to figure out it was clear, like, how to be Trump. And the way that the first two students did it was they were really transgressive.

They said and did shocking things. And they got in trouble with their teachers for it. Like, you know, one year, one of the students who played Trump in this debate accused Hillary of, quote, PMSing. And it was really bad. It was like, you know, everyone couldn't believe that he had said that. And it was bouncing off of what our actual president said about Megan Kelly. So this is the third student that I've seen play, Donald Trump. And this year, he's being played by a senior named Togai. Look, you can't impeach winners.

my office has been winning for the past four years. All right, they can try what they want. You can't impeach a winner. So what do you think about your rivals in this? All right. So the thing is Boring Bill Weld and City Mark Sanford. I don't remember much about Weld. We had a debate once.

I fell to sleep. And City Mark Sanford, I can't understand any of his policies. It's a shame. So I can't tell you much about my rivals. I wanted to talk to Togai not in character as Trump. Can I ask you as you? Oh, yeah. Oh, thank God.

Thank God. Oh, you don't understand how hard it is. He was straight-based doing that, man. What do you think of Trump in real life? I think, you know, most of what he does is so purposefully, you know, controversial, right? I think that's why he won in 2016. So is that your strategy in the simulation? I mean, yeah, I mean, like, my idea is the only way I'm going to win here is just parody, right?

In preparation, I watched Alec Baldwin for a couple weeks to get into the voice. the mannerisms, you know, the hand motions, China, all this sort of stuff. It's all in, you know, just watching what's been come before and bringing it to Townsend Harris, you know? Here to put on the show. You know, Townsend Harris, it's a pretty liberal school.

It's really diverse. It's a lot of kids from immigrant families, students of color. You just really want to know what are they going to think of Donald Trump. For the past four years, I, Donald J. Trump, have proven that my administration is an administration of winners.

All right, what does that mean? Let's just look at the facts, guys. Just look at the facts. I put hundreds and thousands of Americans back into jobs, back into the coal mines, increasing our energy levels, right? We have more energy, and we're making a huge economy, guys. Huge! All right?

And not only is my administration amazing, I also have the most beautiful family, guys, the wonderful Melania and the very, very beautiful Ivanka Trump. I love my daughter, I love my daughter so much. Beautiful of Ivanka Trump here. It looks like we've got a wall to build. All right, that can only happen. If you vote for Donald Trump for re-election in 2020, guys, all right, we got a wall to build.

Remember, let's keep America grid, everybody. So, yeah, he was a hit. I think it's safe to say. So at the kickoff rally, all the candidates are there, and they're all trying to make an impression. And another student who really connected was a senior named Justin, who is playing Pete Buttigieg. Hey, Townsend. I'm Mayor Pete, and I want to be your next president. Now, unlike me, all four of my opponents have been in Washington for a combined 117 years.

Biden has sexually groped seven women, and Conlonairis has opposed investigating police shootings of black Americans. I will secure America's future. This isn't about winning an election. It's about winning an error. So come election day, remember, pledge the Buttigieg. Townsend Harris's Mayor Pete just goes right for the juggler. He's transgressive. and in the same way that Trump is,

and it just electrifies the students. So one of the best things about the Townsend Harris simulation is, you know, there's media. So there's not just the candidates. There's, you know, talk radio, there's TV shows, and everyone goes on these shows to defend themselves and to go after each other. Joe Biden, we need to hear about your kickoff rally experience. How do you feel about it? How to go?

Well, for starters, I think that Mr. Buttigieg's attacks on me were not appropriate for such an... an event and I would like to say that those sexual allegations are not true because it is true that after many of my speeches, I have to hug and kiss many people, but it was never my attention to make anyone feel uncomfortable and I apologize if I have done so. You know, another great aspect of the simulation is the advertising. And so every campaign can place ads on the campus TV station or the campus radio station. And over the years, The political ads that Townsend Harris have developed

to their own distinctive style. Stopping climate change. Rest in peace, I'm your superior. Trump, you don't fit the president's criteria. TNNN taking piss or cause of mass hysteria. After I'm done, Trump, you're gonna start turning up. I'm gonna start killing this. How you shoot but miss.

You're attracted to your daughter, but you got a wife. Trump did nothing here. Dumbie not too bright. Grat him by the pussy, I'm sure that ain't right. Mrs. Donald was in the office. Buggin. Pose to his guts, hope Biden don't cut him Presidential thoughts brought to me with no advisory

When I'm done with you, you'll be drowning in misery When he free for your college real bad He was drowning in his tears with anxiety You know my bars full of clarity I'll send Pete at your dome if you want to keep testing me So, you know, one of the things that happened this year Is the campaign became sort of a rap battle and, you know, Mayor Pete had to respond in this rap battle to Joe.

They say, yo, Pete, where you've been at? I'm just winning with these. I've been crushing out the polls, that's Y, Jop on me. I've been through it speaking for y'all past me, Trump's seat. But no, Biden's making TikToks and not taking the lead. We need changing, change and changing. Gotta check me a vote. I got LGBT rights and I'm a legalized dope.

Marica's going broken. I ain't going to sit back. While creepy Joe looks at little girls like they saw him snacks. But I'm just Pete. Bo, Boota, Judge, trying to be your press. I'm not like other dams, just some airheads. Sponsored by AFL-CIO. You know, so there's so many ads, and it's not just candidates.

There's also ads from special interest groups. One of my favorites this year was from students who were playing the role of the American Family Association. American Family Association, spreading the good Lord throughout our whole nation. Conservative standards is what we will follow. Media integrity. That is our mom. Pro-life because we don't want to kill babies. Climate change is fake and science is crazy,

protecting our children, defending our borders. We know what's right and we'll put things in order. The 2019 candidates debate. Okay, so first we can welcome our Republican candidates. First one up, where's Trump right now? It was totally amazing. Trump, played by Togai, he didn't just walk onto the stage. He came on riding a hoverboard

and he just glided right into the center of the state. stage and he stretched out his arms and he spun around and around and the crowd went nuts. So, you know, and it was really interesting to see just, you know, what parts of the real-life Trump's sort of tactical playbook Togai decided to pick up and use for himself at Townsend Harris. Look, the media does not want me to win. You know how I know why? Because my mic is defunct and I've had to borrow it. They do not want me to win. So I would tell you the truth firsthand. I care about the American people. I care about American jobs. I put you guys first. I don't think we should make sure that all Americans

in sleep at night and all Americans' rights are protected, the First Amendment rights, all of their amendment rights, and we can't do that if we have sneaky politicians trying to take over our government. I put you guys first, and that's how American politics should work, all right? Keep America great, everybody. He didn't really want to show

the scary, aggressive, offensive side of Trump. But Trumpism in general seemed to infect the whole election simulation for the first time. And the Democratic candidates treated each other. with a level of aggression I hadn't seen before, they really became provocateurs determined to create spectacle.

Well, I'd like to ask Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren, these people come from an era of old politics. How will you better prepare America to a future with all of us, us as millennials? You guys aren't in touch with the American people and millennials like I am. How will you better prepare the American people for this transition to the new future? So you say that I'm not in touch with millennials,

but as a mayor, you did nothing for your city and you also fired your only black PD which shows you're a racist. And if you're a millennial, why do you only appeal to the rich white man instead of the minorities? What have you done for the minorities? First of all, for civil liberties,

I have done way more than you have. I've created the violence against womenact and I've done way more for this country than you have. After the debate, I wanted to catch up with Justin who's playing Pete Buttigieg. How do you think it went? I feel like I had pretty good support going for me from the underclassmen. I think that what I need to do next is to take the next step forward

is to be especially more critical of Joe Biden and present myself more of like, present the Democrats mostly, as a united front against Donald Trump. The trouble there is that a lot of the underclassmen like them. So we have to push, yeah, we have to push against them, but push against him, but not to the point where we lose all his voter base to us. Oh, I see. You have to appeal to the Trump voters on some level. So, like, the ones that don't really want to vote for him but don't want to vote for any Democrats,

that's where we're trying to do. Because we looked at, like, the recent polls. We're up against Biden by probably around 20%, but we need to keep this momentum going. And at the moment, I don't think that I'm, like, utilizing that momentum enough. How do you compete with just the sheer celebrity fun of Trump? Like, just by being on stage, people get excited about him. I think the easy thing about playing Trump is that you don't,

really have, it's not really about your policies, it's more about your personality. And I think that the kid playing him is doing an amazing job. It's impossible to attack him on his policies in this election simulation because he's running all on his like character, his charisma. Okay. Awesome. We've been here a couple other years. And this year, I'm surprised to say this, but it seems more cheerful than it has in the past. I remember the Trump Hillary year. I thought, I thought things were, there was more tension and it seemed kind of scarier. And it makes me wonder whether Trump just seems more normal now to kids who have grown up with this. It could be that.

You're right. We're three years into the Trump presidency, and it's not so shocking as it was back then. I think it's also the personalities. I remember the student who played Trump that year, and he didn't have, you know, I hate to say, he didn't have the same kind of charisma as this Trump does. You know, he was a little bit of a darker personality.

So these students, they're seniors, and they've watched previous. election simulations. They've seen two previous trumps, and neither of those trumps have won. So Togai's Trump is to some extent a response to what's come before. And that's something that Justin, who's the student who's playing Pete Buttigieg, has been thinking about a lot. So I was here during the first, the actual general presidential election, not the primaries. So I think it's kind of like, we see his name so much in the headlines that it kind of numbs us to what he's actually doing. He kind of shifted the norm for us. And in this school especially,

There was some stuff that Donald Trump was saying that if you heard from any other candidate, it would frankly be disgusting. Like, he was making jokes about... I'm not criticizing how Togo was playing. He was making jokes about him and Ivanka and stuff like that. And I think that because we've seen what's actually going on in Washington,

because it's kind of been like a reality show to us, this isn't really surprising. And this has been like... This isn't new. That's why I think the student body is so accepting of Donald Trump and willing to overlook some of... his real-life policies in favor of the student playing him. Good afternoon, Townsend Harris.

This is Ms. Barronoff with the election simulation results. The Democratic winner is Pete Buttigieg, and the Republican winner is Donald Trump. Congratulations, everybody. Check that out. So, like I said, when I was coming into this, I knew there were three Trumps, I mean, two Trumps before me.

I was the third Trump coming into this. And I said, when it comes down to it, I want to be the first Trump to win at Townsend Harris High School. Like I told you, back in freshman year, we had conversations. Everyone was so riled up against him being put into office. And now Townsend Harris put him into office by their own accord. So I think I did The Impossible. So he's back in the polls. His opponents are very far behind, far behind.

Looks like the race is won. Josh Rothman is an editor at the New Yorker. Togai, who played Trump in the Townsend Harris High School election simulation, is a graduating senior, and he's heading to college in the fall. Tanzan Harris, this is for you. Let's go. I got diamonds. I'm in my priming. These books I'm signing. Get it, baby, going, bro. Because you know, Numero is living in the White House, and I won't move, bro. Tweet, staying in this race, I'm in the limelight, hear my speech, because now I'm planning out my timeline.

Every single day and the whole night, my policy is like me. All right, look at me, look at you. Take this race, that's what I'm going to do. I'm a winner, baby. What else is new? And now I'm about to trump you. Bring it. In the early 70s, Pam Greer played leading roles in the genre known as

Blacksploitation, with films including Foxy Brown. She was really one of the first women to become an action star. Greer is such an icon that she appears in a Call of Duty video game. The New Yorker's Mike. Michael Schulman caught up with Pam Greer recently on the set of the sitcom, Bless This Mess. When a woman takes out her earrings and her shoes, she's going to whoop your behind. Okay? So that's in my movies.

Okay? And in cultures, certain cultures understand that. And other cultures would think it's black exploitation. We don't fight. We're conservative. Black people. We don't do that. The hell you don't.

No one fights for us. She has to fight for herself. Pam Greer joins us next week on The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and that's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado.

This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Ave Carrillo, Rianan and Corby, Calalia, David Kraus, Now, Caroline Lester, Gauphin and Putubuelly, Louis Mitchell, Michelle Moses, and Stephen Valentino, with help from Alison McAdam, Morgan Flannery, Meng Faye Chen, and Emily Mann. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.