The New Yorker Radio Hour - Brandy Clark: Grammy-Nominated Album Is “Authentically Me”

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

As an aspiring artist, Brandy Clark found herself in love with the craft of songwriting, as some of her peers were working on their image and presentation. She became a top songwriter in Nashville, contributing songs to performers like Kacey Musgraves and LeAnn Rimes. Being a lesbian also complicated any desire to be on the public stage in a conservative industry. But she eventually emerged as a solo artist, partly under the tutelage of Brandi Carlile, who acted as producer. Carlile has ushered her toward the sound of Americana—a “dirtier” aesthetic than Nashville’s, Clark says, and a more inclusive community, which is sometimes mocked as “country music for Democrats.” Clark met recently with Emily Nussbaum, who recently wrote about the culture war in country music, to discuss her recent album, which has been nominated for no fewer than five Grammy Awards. It originally had the title “Northwest,” reflecting Clark’s Washington roots, but she scrapped that to avoid confusion with North West, the child of Kanye West and Kim Kardashian, and released the album as “Brandy Clark.” Of her four solo records, “this is the most authentically me.”Clark performed “Buried” and “Pray to Jesus” live in our studio. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. She smoked in the house, burned holes in the couch, lipstick, circled butts in the ashtray. In 2020, the New Yorker published an article with a headline, No one is writing better country songs than Brandy Clark is. Those songs have been performed by the likes of Reba McIntyre, Miranda Lambert, Casey Musgraves, Leanne Rhymes, all the biggest artists in country music. And Brandy Clark herself is one of the top songwriters in Nashville,

often co-writing with Shane McAnally. But growing up in the state of Washington in a town of just a thousand people, Brandy Clark's first musical partner was her mother. You know, I never realized that everybody's mom couldn't play a bunch of instruments. You know, my mom, we always had a piano, and I remember some of my earliest memories of her, she played the harp and the hammered dulcimer, she could just pick up an instrument and learn it. So, you know, if there was a song on the radio that we loved, she could, she could play it. She played by ear really well. And then later on, we were in a band together.

And a lot of my first songs I wrote with my mom, I did have a knack for that. And the original songs that our band did, people gravitated towards. And so that was really what got me to move to Nashville. After making it there as a writer, Clark's first album performing her own material was called 12 stories, a record that staff writer Emily Nussbaum describes as a masterpiece. Emily is a fan of country music and she sat down with Brandy Clark to talk about her newest album, which is called, logically enough, Brandy Clark. And it's been nominated for five Grammy Awards.

Here's Emily. So let's talk about your move to Nashville. You moved there when you were 22. Yes. You went to Belmont. What were you thinking about doing professionally at that point? Being a songwriter, being in the music industry, being an artist, solo artist. Yes, I definitely wanted to be a solo artist at that point.

And what happened to me was like, you know, you move a new place and you make friends. And I started to see that my friends that were getting traction as artists, they cared way more about, which you wouldn't know this today, because I just came from a TV appearance. They cared way more about hair and makeup than I did. And that seemed to be more of what mattered, you know, was what you looked like. And I cared more about learning to write songs. I wasn't going to go, I wasn't going to skip a writing appointment to go get a spray tan. You know, and friends I had, no offense, we all choose what's important to us. They were into doing that.

And they were getting traction. They were getting record deals. They were being successful. And so I started to think, maybe I'm not an artist. Like maybe maybe that whole aesthetic thing is so much more important than I ever realized. And so, but I love music so much. And I loved getting better as a songwriter. I loved people, actually, this is going to sound crazy, but it's true.

I loved people telling me my songs weren't good enough because it made me want to get better and want to study great songs and learn how to get better. And that's what motivates me is doing something. musicly that moves somebody. You know, that just... So that's where I was really motivated. How much did your sexuality play a role in any of your decisions at that time? I know you've talked about yourself as being a late humor, but...

It definitely played into it, you know, because about the time I moved to Nashville, I did realize that I was gay and I got into my first relationship, and I knew that I didn't think those two things could coexist, which was being in a relationship that was authentic to me. and being a country music artist. That played into it massively, I would say. Could you tell me about the environment? Did you get that as advice from people? Did people say you can't come out and be an artist,

you have to do other things, or was it more in the atmosphere? It was more in the atmosphere, because I was a long ways from coming out at that point, too, and I also wasn't good enough at my craft where anybody would have cared enough to say, don't come out of the club, closet, you could ruin this. You know, like, I wasn't, I wasn't there as an artist for sure. It took me

living a little to have something to really say as an artist, but I definitely didn't think that those two things could be together. Could coexist. Yeah. How old were you when you met Shane McAnally? He's been a frequent collaborator with you. It was, I was in my 30s. Man, let me think of exactly how old I was. I'll tell you what, it was an amazing day. The day, the day. that I met Shane. And some of it had to do, you know, you mentioned my sexuality, some of it was that. You know, I saw him, and I was out of the closet by then, but I saw him, it's one thing to be an out-of-the-closet lesbian. It's another thing to be an out-of-the-closet gay man, you know, living and working in country music. And I thought that was so brave. From the moment I met him, he was who he was. And I thought,

you know what? I mean, I was living my life out loud, but when I met Shane, I thought, you know what, you're not living it out loud enough. Like, just be who you are. And I remember he said something to me one time. I said, because then I did get the opportunity to make a record and things started to happen. And I said, Shane, do you think it's going to matter that I'm gay? And he said, nope, you're too good. It won't matter. And that. And that really, really stuck with me. That's beautiful. Yeah.

Let's talk about your album, Brandy Clark. It's your fourth album. It's the first one that has your name on it in that way. And I know it was originally called Northwest. How did it change to be called Brandy Clark? So it was, I wanted to call it Northwest because Brandy Carlisle, when she approached me about making this record, she said, I see it as your return to the Northwest. And because we grew up close to each other, didn't know each other, but, you know, same

side of the state. And I loved that. I'd never really dove into talking about the Northwest specifically. And so went up, went to the Northwest and wrote a song called Northwest and was like, this is the album title. But every, when I would tell people that, they would say, well, you know that's Kim and Kanye's child, right? And I had never, never hurt to me. Me neither. And so the first time someone said that, I just thought, oh, you know, they like bad TV. As do I. But when like four out of five people said it, I thought, okay, this is not really, really a good thing. And no offense to Northwest, the child. But as we started working on the record, it just was so me.

It felt so me that I wanted to call it Brandy Clark. You know, working with Brandy Carlyle did bring me home, not just to the Northwest, but home musically for me. And so it felt like, wow, this is of the four albums, this one is the most authentically me. Well, let's play a song from the album, just this absolutely stunning song called Buried. Could you tell me a little bit about it and then we can have you play? Oh, thank you. So Buried, I wrote this with Jesse Joe Dillon, and I think that, you know, we all have somebody that we'll love tell we're buried that we're usually not with. So her and I sat down one day and we started it from the top.

I had the working title, if you don't love me anymore. And all these things that, you know, you're going to do. And that song changed a lot in the studio because Brandy really challenged me to change the second verse. It used to say, I'll read Lonesome Dove, I'll start doing yoga. And she didn't like that yoga line. and I did and I said well you know why don't you like it she said well because I just don't even believe you do yoga and I said well I don't she said well then why would you put it in a song you know so there were some little things like that that changed and she said to me you know I really I know you're calling this song if you

don't love me anymore but I think you should call it buried it's the last word of the song it's such a powerful title it's really what it's about and so that's how the title changed some lyric change More things changed on that song lyrically than any song I've ever written in the studio. I have to say the Kiss Me on the Dance Floor line to me, and I don't know whether there's an overread. But that actually does feel a little bit about being with somebody who's not out. I don't know whether, yeah. For me, that is what that was about. Yeah, you know, wanting to be with somebody who's proud enough to be with you in the open.

So let's have you sing the song, The Beautiful Buried. Okay. I'll fly myself to France, first class New York to pay. Get drunk on wine and dance with someone who ain't in bed. To kiss me on the dance floor. Yeah, that's what I'll be there for. Who don't want for beyond me. Who don't love me?

And I'll read lonesome dust. Fall asleep to hallelujah. I'll take some trippy drug. Makes me forget I even knew you. I'll paint the floor to ceiling blue. Leave me, baby. I got things to do. You don't want me.

I'll make you a bullet. I don't love. I'll meet somebody else, probably get mad. I'll keep it to myself, but I love you till I'm bad. It's unbelievably beautiful. Literally, I have chills running up the back of my neck. And I also find that song so beautiful because it's like a trick ending, but not in a gimmick way. It actually is very, very devastating.

But tell me a little bit about the vocal for this. this because it's a very quiet, quiet song on it. And the album itself is a quiet album in many ways, other than the first track. So this vocal, you know, I had been in Salt Lake City working on Shucked before it went to Broadway. And we were, Brandy and I were working at Shangri-La studios in Malibu, California. And I got a phone call from our producer of our, of our, our musical, and he asked me if I could step out and talk to him. And so I did, and he told me that we were losing a cast member to another show. And somebody that I felt like the show, that was in the DNA, and I cried. And when I came back in, Brandy was like, hey, let's do

buried. And I said, oh, you know, I just got some news. It's not terrible, but it's kind of shaken me up. And she's like, no, no, you know, we won't keep your vocal, like, let's just do it. which was really smart of her. So I was in this very vulnerable, sad place to sing it. And then she had the engineer turned my mic up so hot that I had to whisper sing it. And that's where all that comes from. Songwriter and performer Brandy Clark talking with the New Yorker's Emily Nussbaum. More in a moment.

I'll fly myself to France. First class New York to pay. So what's Get drunk on wine and dance Someone who ain't in bed So what choices did you make Musically on this album about the sound of it Or did you make mutually with Brandy as a producer?

We made choices together for sure And she was great for me to work with Because I could talk to her like another recording artist I could say I wanted to feel like this And it wouldn't necessarily have to be musical language You know we wanted it to be to be a musical language. You know, we wanted it to. to be live, and it is, for the most part, all live.

You know, Brandy had said to me, because I feel like for a long time, I've straddled country in Americana. And she said, you know, I think as a producer, I can pull you over into more of an Americana vibe on a record. And so that was a conscious choice. So could you tell me what that means? Because I was surprised. This album is nominated, correct, as an Americana album.

And tell me from your perspective, what's the difference between country and Americana? Well, and it's just so I'm clear on it. It's nominated across both. Right. It's nominated as Best Americana album, but Buried is nominated as Best Country Song. And Best Country Vocal. Yes. Yes. Well, you know, I think with Americana, it's more, to me, it means more acoustic instruments, less electric instruments, although there are some electric instruments. and it's kind of dirtier.

I mean, there's nothing slick to me about Americana. It's, you know, it's, and that can be hard for me because there were things that Brandy and the engineer fought me on to keep that were imperfect. Those are, that's tough things for me. Can you give me an example? Well, that Barry vocal. Right. You know, that was a really great example.

And then when people, what helped me was when people would hear it, they'd be like, don't change a note. You know, I think AmeriConnor. The Americana space is less about, well, it's definitely less about anything that might commercially work on radio, even though I do get Americana radio play. I mean, I kind of just think Americana is good music, and that sounds really vague, but it's a pretty broad genre. You know, it's complicated because I did this whole article about Nashville, I would ask everyone to define the categories, and some people would define them in ways.

that had very little to do with the music. They would just say, Americana is more diverse. Americana is liberal country. Yes. Americana makes less money because it's not connected to country radio. I have heard Americana is country music for Democrats. Yeah. I have heard that, which I really liked that.

I want to talk actually about another song on that album that I also love. Tell her you don't love her. And, you know, I know that that song changed a lot in production as well. Can you tell me a little bit about it? I think that to me, to have a song on a record that's not bashing another woman, that is literally like, I love my friend and you don't. You need to tell her. You know, stop, stop kind of, you know, keeping her hanging. Tell her you don't love her even if it's a lie.

make it sound true Break that spell She's under Even if it feels mean Do what you got to do Don't leave a doubt Don't break her fall Don't see her out

Tell her you don't love If you ever loved her at all And that's, to me also, That came from a really real situation That was really going on Yeah, I think it's a beautiful And it comes from this interesting emotional angle that's indirect and has this edge of anger in a way that's earned but not directed at a person hurting you. I mean, I've been in love with people that other people had to say to me, look, he's never going to get it together.

So I just thought it was an – I think it's an important song for that reason. You know, I'm interested in that experience of being a songwriter. And I think a lot of people listening to this probably don't understand what it's like to be a music row song. Like what is the daily experience of that job compared to the job that you're doing now? Well, for me, it never really stopped. You know, like I was always looking for song. I still am always looking for song ideas. But, you know, you've got to go in every day at 10 a.m.

with a list of ideas to fire off at somebody else and see what resonates. And it might not be your idea. It might be theirs. You know, if you're writing with an artist, you're writing for them. And so, you know, that was always a delicate balance of, you know, with my experience, And I even see it in myself as my own artist, artists usually like their ideas. You know, when I look at my albums, most of the titles were my idea because it's what I feel close to. So as a songwriter, you put on your hat to be in service to their idea. And sometimes

you compromise on things that if they weren't in the room, you wouldn't. We are writing, we're trying to write the best song we can write for the world. If we're sitting there, if we were sitting there with an artist, we're still trying to do that, but we're trying to do it through their lens. And so I think songwriters who are really good at that are really good at staying out of the way. And I mean that positively. Like, they're really good at pulling the best out of others and helping an artist get their vision out fully. You're behind a bunch of songs that other songwriters did that became classics, including Mama's Broken Heart, Better Dig 2, Follow Your Arrow.

Was it ever hard to have somebody else do the song instead of you doing the song? No, not with those three, because those are three great examples. You know, follow your arrows. Shane and I wrote that with Casey Musgraves. That was always for Casey. You know, so we wrote that with her and for her. Mama's Broken Heart. I mean, I love to play that every once in a while and gets a crowd ready, but I never was connected to it.

I don't have any of those stories where it's like, oh, it pains me that this person recorded that song. I also believe songs end up where they're supposed to, especially if they're songs that are hit songs or get some sort of a critical look, you know, like, because I have songs that have been recorded that weren't hits, but that people know. And it's like, okay, that ended up where it was supposed to be. Back when you made 12 stories, what was the psychological adjustment like from being a songwriter for other people to being a front woman? Well, you know, it was a slow one. I feel, and I feel like I've just with this record fully made it. You know, that was one of the things that Brandy said to me. She's like, you think of yourself too much as a craftsman.

You know, like even in interviews like this one, I've mentioned other co-writers. And she was like, you've got to stop doing that. She's like, you got to stop talking about me so much, which I'm not going to do. Sorry to tell you, Brandy Carlyle. I will always, you know, bang her drum. But she's like, it's about you. You're the artist. And so I think that was a big shift.

And this is the first album where I've had so many songs that are really about me. You know, I no longer write songs thinking, now would Leanne Womack want to say this? You know, I used to always have that voice in my head. I used Leanne Womack because I always wanted her to cut my songs. But I don't feel that. I don't do that anymore. And so that adjustment took some time.

Thank you so much for coming by. It was great, and thank you for playing for us. Oh, thank you. Brandy Clark's new record, her fourth solo album is called Brandy Clark. And you can read Emily Nospound at New Yorker.com. That's our episode for today. We've got one more from Brandy Clark recorded in our studio at One World Trade Center. This one is called Pray to Jesus.

Thanks for listening. trailers and apartments too from California to Calibuzeo grow up getting married and when that one ends we hate sleeping alone so we get married again don't want to be buried in dead or in sin so we pray to Jesus and we played in a lot of because There ain't but two ways we can change tomorrow And it ain't no genie and it ain't no bottle. So we prayed Jesus and we played a lot of fire.

We love to complain about what we can't fix Mostly mothers-in-law traffic in politics. We tell our kids, we tell our kids. how hard it was back when same way our parents did us back we're just like them so we prayed play the lot

because there ain't but two ways we can change to my name no so we pray to Jesus and we played the lot our kids up in our new year and after church we We hit them any more behind the counter up there on the wall. Six little numbers that could change in all.

So we prayed to Jesus and we play the lot because there ain't but two ways we can change tomorrow and ain't nobody. So we pray to Jesus and we played a lot because there's ain't but two ways we can change tomorrow and ain't nobody. The New Yorker, like a bumper sticker, like a poor man's motto. Times are tough. Pray to play. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Walton, Adam Howard, Kalalia, David Krasnow, Jeffrey

and Louie Mitchell, with guidance from Emily Boutin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, and Alejandro Deccett. And we had additional help this week from Jared Paul and Jake Loomis. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.