The New Yorker Radio Hour - Brooke Shields on the Sexualization of Girls in Hollywood

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

In the late nineteen-seventies and into the eighties, Brooke Shields was one of the most famous and most controversial people in America. At age eleven, she appeared in the film “Pretty Baby,” playing a child prostitute; by fifteen she was in the heavy-breathing desert-island love story “Blue Lagoon.” She was the face of a series of ads for Calvin Klein jeans featuring notoriously smutty innuendo. Yet Shields herself—rather than the filmmakers and ad men who developed her roles—became the object of fascination and public reproach, as the new documentary “Pretty Baby: Brooke Shields,” premièring on Hulu, demonstrates in detail. Yet, if she was exploited by adults around her when she was young, Shields denies any sense of being a victim. In a conversation with Michael Schulman, she calls hypocrisy on models who criticize their industry. “You’re making money, and you’re selling something, and, in most cases, sex sells,” she says. “ ‘Oh, I’m being objectified.’ You’re a model! That’s the point!” New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In the late 70s and into the 80s, Brooke Shields was one of the most famous and controversial people in America. But if she was somehow notorious, it had nothing to do with her exactly. It was the position that she was put in as a child actress and as a young model. When she was 11, she starred in Pretty Baby, playing a child prostitute. And when she was 15, she starred in a heavy-breathing desert island love story called Blue Lagoon. And there was a notorious series of ads for Calvin Klein jeans that set a new benchmark for skeezy suggestiveness.

So for a while there, Brookshield seemed to be at the center of everything that appalled or titillated people about the era. A new documentary about the life of Brookshields is airing next week on Hulu. My next guest is really a beautiful young lady, who at 13 is already. achieved an incredible amount of recognition. Brooke Shield starred in the highly publicized film Pretty Baby. And she's the subject of a new book called The Brook Book. She is quite a fascinating young lady. Would you welcome, please, Ms. Brooke Shields.

Shields spoke the other day with the New Yorker's Michael Schulman. I really didn't realize the extent to which you lived your entire life in the public eye. I mean, it seems like you were, you know, from infancy. you were modeling. Do you have memories of, like, coming to realize that your life was unusual in some way? Here's the problem with that way of, not your way of thinking, but that kind of rationale is I never knew anything different. So I think I've seen, especially actors, go from real, not relative, but Anna.

anonymity to fame, sort of in one movie or overnight. And the shock to their system, how much their world changes is what undoes them, you know, whereas I only knew working and I only knew school and jobs. That's what you did. And I only worked from three o'clock on, even if they would be like, oh, and there's a 10 o'clock appointment for her. And my mom would be like, all right, see you at three. You know, and they were like, but it's at 10 o'clock. And she's like, she's in school. Right. So much of the documentary are these clips of you on talk shows sitting across from some middle-aged man asking you to essentially defend yourself or asking creepy, pre-rent questions about your sexuality or your love life. And then you are usually sitting next to your

mother and kind of making the case for how this is fine. And I just, there's so many of those clips and I, in a way, I feel like self-conscious right now because I'm also someone doing that in a way, like asking you about the kind of complicated morality of this work. But how did you sort of sitting in those chairs, like being on talk shows, being sort of interrogated like that? It just never ended. I mean, you just got so, I mean, there were some clips later where, or maybe this one made it in, I don't know, where you can see me go, oh, here we go again, here we go again. Like I became this like, you know, vaudeville kind of like, oh, here it comes, you know, the question or whatever. And I just sort of, I think it made me lose so much respect for the, excuse me, but the press.

because it didn't, there was no one place that had even a modicum of integrity. Brooke, what are your measurements? On 5.10 and 120. I don't, I think when people see you, they don't realize. And to have Barbara Walters want, talk about my measurements, to have, you know, Phil Donogne, you or these people, you know, Tom Snyder and, you know, and they just like sort of, there was nothing intellectual about it. And so you saw these adults who you thought were supposed to be the smart people in the world be so low as common denominator that I just became sort of shut down to

all of it because I thought, here we go again, you know, and you watch this little girl and you think, shame on you guys. Like, to me, though, I've put more blame and shame on the interviewers and the press than I ever. What about Pretty Baby, the subject or the content or the, like, that knew exactly what it was it set out to do. And it was an artistic endeavor. Then you get to these journalists and you think, how is that okay to talk to a child like that? Right. It's very uncomfortable to watch. It's uncomfortable to watch. And it's so, and I just learned at a very young age, you know, not to really trust people. And, you know, I used to think, oh, if I say this, I'll be liked, or, oh, the journalist is going to get it. They're going to see it, you know. And I just learned at a very early age that that wasn't going to be, that wasn't the nature of the industry, you know.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come. What I want to talk about next is a very complicated thing, which is pretty baby, not only the name of your documentary, but of course was also your breakout role in 1978 in the Louis Malle film, which... Breakout role. It's so funny. Is that not the way to say it? No, it's the way, it's just so, it's so funny looking, like, reexamining all of this and sort of thinking, like, yeah, that's what they call a breakout. This is Brooke Sheets. breathtaking in her screen debut, constantly changing, always surprising.

Like the image of me. Love my mother more than me. I know about those things better than you. You always know those things about men when you're a woman. I watched it recently for the first time, and honestly, I loved it, but I also do not know what to think about it. See, I think it's the most beautiful movie I've ever made. I think it's the only real quality film I've ever really been in. Like, I just, I value that movie in such a different way and wrote my thesis on it.

And this sort of, I'm fascinated with that journey of innocence to experience. Right. You know, and how, who owns it and how they, you know, do they become a victim to it or do they not? And I don't know, it's just very interesting to me, that movie. You couldn't make it today. Obviously, that's what the big theme is now. It's like, oh, you couldn't make that movie today. I mean, you couldn't.

But it is a beautifully done film, and it's, you know, it's about a young woman who lives in a horror house and turn in a century, New Orleans. And this young girl's transition from, in a way, as you were saying, thinking, not knowing that this isn't anything but normal. Right. And then kind of following. following her mother's footsteps and, you know, becoming a sex worker herself. How was the character and the plot described to you? And who described it? I went in and just talked with Polly Platt and with Louis Malle.

And they, he just asked me questions. Like, are you aware of what prostitution is? And I was like, yeah, you know, I often see on 42nd Street the girl's standing on the corner. And, you know, I always worried that they're cold. And, you know, so I just told him those stories about that. And growing up in Manhattan, you know, I was a city kid. So, and I was a city kid with a single mom. So, you know, I saw New York in the 70s in a very sort of raw way. That was how I grew up. And then he just asked me questions about the era, you know, the early 1900s and what the wardrobe looked like. And he said, you know, we're telling the story.

It's a true story. It's about a young girl. And it's about it's a love story, ostensibly, it's a love story. But it's also, he wouldn't have said coming of age at that point because I don't think I would have understood it. But he was talking about the mother and the daughter. And we talked about like my hobbies and like what I like doing. I liked riding horses. And I think he just wanted, it wasn't about a proficient performer or a Lolita.

It was about the innocence, an innocent and how that innocence gets sort of taken, but her choice to not be a victim. And you see it at the end of the film, cinematically when she turns around and looks into the camera. And it's the first time she looks right down the barrel of the lens. And there's a young sort of newsy boy behind her, and he's blurred. And that's the last sort of frame. How she sort of turns that being in a voyeuristic environment, she then turns it around and says, okay, I'm in control.

now. You want me to put a bow in my hair and be a kid? I got to. And it's just like, to me, I don't think I knew that until later when I really analyzed the film. Right. I'm always fascinated by what child actors understand about what they're doing, especially when they give an incredible film performance. Well, it's hard to know, you know, no one was teaching me anything. So I, I wasn't being shepherded in any way. But it was, It was interesting because when I had this, the kissing scene with Keith, I think, Keith Carrading, who plays the photographer who becomes your husband. Yeah, your husband.

We get married. And I had never, you know, kissed a boy before. And you're 11 in this movie, right? I'm 11. And I didn't know how to do that. And I had a kiss. I didn't, I never, you know. And I was like, oh, God, I don't know what to do.

And so I kept scrunching up my face and the director kept getting mad at me. And so Keith says, can I just have a minute with her? And he says, you know, I mean, he was in a very difficult position. I think he must have. I mean, I don't know. I never really spoke to him about it in later years. But it must have been kind of just hard for him, you know, because. I'm a kiss an 11-year-old.

I know. It's weird. It's weird, and he said to me, you know, this doesn't count as a first kiss. And I will always be thankful for that. It's just so different from anything now. And I love how the documentary ends with you talking to your daughters, who I guess are Gen Ziers. I guess, yeah, I think so. That's, yeah, there are 16 and 19.

You haven't seen Pretty Baby. You haven't seen Blue Lagoon. You haven't seen Blue Lagoon. No. I will never, ever watch Blue Lagoon. Sorry. Okay. Why not feel the good?

Because she's, like, naked. No, I see if Pretty Baby edits on TikTok and it makes me not want to watch it. Because it's like the movie itself is like, this is nothing against, no, I'm not to me personally. I'm saying the movie itself is like about something that's not okay now, right? I never saw pretty pretty.

Is there nudity in it? Yes. Are you nude? I'm new twice with my little 11-year-old body. That's weird. Why wouldn't you be able to see that movie today? Why wouldn't that movie be able to be made today? Like, it's just everything's changed.

It's called child pornography. Technically. You were 11. You weren't mature enough to be making your own decisions, and other people signed off being like, oh, no, she's fine. You can take her top off. She's fine. They blew me away at the end of,

because they weren't prompted at all. And I didn't know that they were aware of any of that or thought that way. And it was really, it was interesting that to see them say that what they felt about it. Right. You know, and I was just, I was proud of them for being able to be, to be able to talk about all of it. I mean, I don't know. It's again, you know, you can't really say, like, oh, it was just a different era. It was a different era.

And like, Gen Z knows so much about consent now and thinks about it a lot. Right. That that seemed to be what your daughters were saying, is that how could you have had consent over being new at 11? And you wouldn't, I wouldn't have known to say no or that I could have said no. But it also didn't occur to me to say no. Right. Yeah. And it seemed like, and this is one thing I really learned watching the documentary is that basically everything, you did became what we would in the present time called a discourse, you know, whether it was the Calvin Klein

commercials, which people thought were too sexy. You want to know what comes between me and my Calvin's? Nothing. Calvin Klein jeans. I was curious if you've read the supermodel

Emily Radikowsky's book, my body. No, but I I'm going to be on her podcast and she's going to be on mine. And so I'm getting the book and I'm going to read it obviously before I speak to her. I mean, well, I was thinking about watching the documentary about you because like you, she was, you know, the face. And in this book, it's a book of essays and she really grapples with what it means to kind of like make a living off of your image and your beauty. Wait, I'm going to, I have a quote from it that I thought was really,

Whatever influence and status I've gained were only granted to me because I appealed to men. My position brought me in close proximity to wealth and power and brought me some autonomy, but it hasn't resulted in true empowerment. She's talking about sort of participating in like the influencer economy and sort of being the face of whatever brands, you know. And I'm curious, like, do you, you know, when you, you know, had the Calvin Klein jeans at, It almost seems like a catch-22 in that, you know, you're sort of criticized for being too sexy in those ads. And yet also, the people doing that are like the people profiting from it are, is Calvin Klein jeans. But that's your job.

I mean, you're selling. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, I don't, it's, I can't, I can't be a hypocrite. on the one hand, say, I'm going to sell your stuff, and we're going to sell, I'm going to sell it however, however I can, you know, and if this is what it is, then that's what I'm going to do, because it was acting, you know, but I don't then get to turn around and, and sort of negate, negated or put it down or say like, oh, I'm being used. Yeah. That's what you do. You know, it's like, I just, I don't, there is no, I don't believe in.

and like this righteous kind of all of a sudden, it's like, I'm sorry, but you know exactly you're making money and you're selling something. And in most cases, you know, sex sells, right? So come on, like, just shut up. Yeah. You know, oh, I'm being objectified. You're a model. Right. It's the point. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not being negative about that. because I think she's very right about what her perception of that is. But by the same token, like, I don't believe in having a poor me. Well, in a way, what you're saying is very consistent with what you were saying at 12 and 15 on these talk shows, which is, you know, which is that I knew exactly what I was doing, getting to this, and it's fine. I mean, do you feel like what has changed, of anything about your perspective on your early career,

just as you've gotten older and live more life. I mean, do you feel like you have the same opinion on it as you did then? Pretty much. I mean, yes, I answer my children and saying, you know, would that be a world that I would put them in then or now? And the answer is no. But they're different people. This is a different time and I have a different perspective.

But I don't... do I have a different perspective about my career? I think I've really, I don't know. I don't think I've really changed. I mean, I feel like at every step of the way, every time someone criticized, it so clearly became about them to me. You know, and I would watch it time and time again,

and I'd think you're the one with the problem. And you want me to have this problem. And I can't grant you that because I don't, that is not my perspective. Now, that's hard for you to take because then I'm not a victim. Then what does that mean? And then it reflects back onto you in some way that you think. So I'm proud of the way that I was able to maintain my point of view. The documentary Pretty Baby Brooke Shields is on Hulu starting April 3rd.

You can also read her interview with Michael Shulman at New Yorker.com. I'm David Remnick, and thanks for listening. I hope you'll join us next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbiz of Tuneiards with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Breda Green, Adam Howard, Kalalia, Avery Keatley, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, and Gophane in Putabwele, with guidance from Emily Boutin and assistance from Harrison Keithline,

Michael May, David Gable, and Meher Batia. Special assistance this week from Mike Dodge-W of KCRW. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.