The New Yorker Radio Hour - Daniel Craig Takes Off the Tux

Episode Date: October 15, 2021

Daniel Craig made his career as an actor in the theatre and in British indie films. When he showed up in Hollywood, it was usually in smaller roles, often as a villain. So, in 2005, when Craig was cast as the original superspy, James Bond, he seemed as surprised as anyone. In “No Time to Die,” Craig gives his final performance as Bond—a role, he tells David Remnick, that sometimes grated on him. Craig hasn’t lost his love of theatre, and is set to play Macbeth on Broadway. “I try not to differentiate” between Shakespeare’s work and Ian Fleming’s, he tells David Remnick. “You’re trying to aim for some truth, to ground things in reality,” and “both require the same muscles.” Though he admits that “there’s a lot more chat” in a Shakespeare script. Plus, the beloved comic character actor Carol Kane discusses her Oscar-nominated turn in 1975’s “Hester Street,” which is being re-released. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Daniel Craig made his career as an actor first in the theater and in British indie films. And when he showed up in Hollywood, he was usually in smaller roles, often as a villain. So in 2005, Daniel Craig seemed as surprised as anyone to find himself cast as the original super spy. Ian Fleming's James Bond. I'm looking most forward to actually starting, getting on with it, and being intimidated just by just about everything.

Are you looking forward to becoming a legend? Oh, I don't know about that. Fifteen years later comes no time to die. Daniel Craig's fifth and final appearance is Bond. Critics said he revitalized the franchise presenting a more complex, morally compromised Bond suited to our times. And yet, Daniel Craig hasn't always been thrilled with the life of a blockbuster action hero. He's gone back to the theater whenever he could.

And as he takes off Bond's tuxedo now, he's preparing to play Macbeth on Broadway. You know, I remember seeing you as a Yago in a production, a terrific production of Atello. and I had to wonder what the different, radically different challenges of playing Iago is in a relatively small room, playing Shakespeare in the course of two and a half hours or whatever long it takes to put on in a given night, as opposed to these sprawling, epic, comic, serious action feats, it just has to be incredibly radical, much more radical. than playing violin in the London Symphony and then playing in a rock band. It just seems so disconnected. How are they connected? How not? Both of which I wish I could do.

Yes. I mean, listen, on a purely acting level when you're doing it, there's little difference because you're trying to aim for some truth. You're trying to aim for some to ground things in reality. but of course doing a play and doing it night after night there's a sort of I suppose there's a purity to it it's like a firework you know you sort of like the blue touch paper and when you do a play and you're off

and with a movie you know you stop and you start and you go back and you kind of consider and you can do this and you can do that but I don't try and differentiate between the two because I think that they're you know they both require the same muscles. They do. They do, yeah. I mean, there's a lot more, you know, chat. In Shakespeare. Can you tell me about one day of shooting that is illustrative of what it's like to play James Bond? I remember there was a sequence at the beginning of Quantum of Solace, which was a roof chase. It involved me running into a room, looking out of a window,

seeing a bus two stories down and leaping out of the window. And I was on like a jerk harness. And the bus, I stop above the bus, but the bus goes under me, you know. So there's a lot of moving parts going on. And you can't really rehearse that until you're in the right situation. It was a real street in Sienna. It was all of these things. And I'd done jumps, so I knew the jerk hard, how it worked and how it worked.

felt and, you know, the jerk of it, because it's called a jerk on it, and it jerks you. But I remember standing there, and it was a second unit shot, and I didn't know any of the crew, and I was sort of introducing myself, but nervously introducing myself, because I was really nervous, and I was with somebody. And I kind of felt very alone. I felt, suddenly I felt, my God, what am I doing? This is crazy. I'm leaping out of a window into the path of an oncoming bus. And it was a moment, that moment, when I suddenly went, but hey, I'm leaping out of a window in the path of an oncoming bus, let's do it.

It's like, and I kind of suddenly just, you know, I just, I did it. I mean, we did it twice, I think. And, you know, and I just, it was, I was like, it was, it was a kind of moment, it was, the moment was so big. And I realized that what I was doing was so big and so out of my comfort zone. and like nothing I'd ever done before in my life and will do since. I just had to kind of embrace it and just sort of go, okay, try and look good while you're doing it. That's kind of that's the note, you know, attempt to look good while you're doing it.

What is the injury report as your bond career has come to a sad close? What does the hospital report look like for you? Well, I'm a good friend. I'm a very good friend of a guy called Andy Cosgirah, who is my surgeon at John Hopkins. which John Hopkins, who I've become very close to. You've kept him in business. I've kept him very busy over the years, and he's, as of a couple of surgeons,

another one in London, James Calder, who's looked at, I broke my ankle on this last one, and he patched me up on this one, so I have to give them a name check. I threw myself into these at the very beginning. I've been a massive fan since a child of Buster Keaton and Harold Doyd. And for me, those watching, I used to watch those movies on a Saturday morning.

They play on the television sort of one after the other from about seven o'clock in the morning on British television. And all I remember is thinking, it's them, it's really them. That's their faces, their, and when I got involved with this, I thought, at least for some of this movie, it's got to be me. And I know we can face replace. And I know there's ways of faking it. And I know this. And I had amazing stunt doubles who did crazy. stuff for me. But at a certain point in the movie, I wanted the audience to go, oh, shit, it's him.

Yeah. And that's where I started. So I wanted to end that way. And after Spector, I ended, I broke my leg very badly and I was very, it was very, it was stressful on myself emotionally, but also just physically, clearly stressful. I could have gone two ways. I could have stopped the movie, had surgeries. We could have shut down for nine months and I could have come back again. Or I could carry on and we could, you know, risk me collapsing on my knee. And at the end of that, I thought, well, I can't do this anymore. I can't because if I can't do the physical stuff, at least to a certain level, what's the point? I started off like that. So why would I, so I wanted to give up. I really wanted to give up. And a couple of years of healing and I was mad enough to go back.

Well, did you ever think to yourself enough of this shit? I only get one body. Many, many, many, many times. But, you know, there were too many good things going on. There were too many amazing, you know, it's very, very, very rare air making a Bond movie. You know, the privilege of getting to do that, anybody getting to do that, but for me to get to do that in five movies is so... I can't actually properly take it in. I mean, if you ask me to try and unpick it what it means, I couldn't do it.

But do you feel more sanguine about it now? I mean, maybe it was, the press was not representing it properly or not, but here and there, one would get a report. And it seemed, Daniel Craig is getting a little grumpy about Bond and maybe breaking his leg every so often. And he's had enough. And let's go to my bath or something else. You know, I kind of had this comment, I did this comment where I said, I'd rather slash my wrists. And it became a big deal. And that was one hint, yeah.

That was one hint, yeah. Was that, and I remember being asked, do you want to redo the interview? and I was like, oh, no, that's how I feel. And that was probably a mistake. But, hey, ho. What pissed me off so much was the fact that I thought I couldn't do them again and do them to that level. And that was what got me.

And I was like, you know, and there were times when the movies were a struggle. We had, you know, quantum, we didn't have, we had a writer's strike. We had an actor's strike, possibly. We had no, you know, we had half a script. We didn't have it. You know, and I was trying to rewrite a script, which is not. a good thing and all of the, you know, all of these things. And those pressures just felt like, God, is this the way it has to be? Does it have to be this much of a struggle? But things

work themselves out. I mean, I just wore my heart on my sleeve. And I think I could have been a bit more, I definitely could have been a little bit more, what's the word, delicate about what I was saying, what I thought about things. But did it indicate in yourself that you feared in some way that the bondness of your career might overcome or overwhelm the rest of it, despite its rewards, despite its fun, despite its remuneration. Yeah, I think I definitely felt that at the beginning. And listen, I went in with open eyes. I knew, you know, I mean, I waded up. But I think for a while, I thought, oh, God, is this going to be, what, what am I doing to myself here? What, is, I, you know, am I destroying something as opposed to, but that just got better and better. And I think, listen,

And lots of things happened to me personally. And I just got softer about everything. I started to enjoy it. I started to look at it in a way for what it is, that it's an incredible experience. And also, again, just go back to the people I get the chance to work with. I can't be pissed off about that. I mean, you know.

Now, this looks very much, this is your swan song as James Bond. And you've been quoted as saying when asked 10 million times, you know, who's going to be next and all that, that you don't give, well, you know what you don't give. But you also care about this franchise. There's a nice way. It's not my problem, which is a nicer way of saying it. Fair enough. But you seem to care a lot about both the past of this franchise and its quality. What would you like to see in it as a fan, as a moviegoer?

How do you think it'll develop? Well, first off, I'll be front and center. when the next one happens. I mean, I'll be on the front row with my popcorn and a big drink. I mean, because I mean, I love Bond movies, so I'll be happy to be there. I tried to leave in a good place. And I had a deal with Barbara to get to this point. Barbara Broccoli, the producer.

A verbal deal. But it's always where whatever, this was the direction I always wanted to take it. What was the deal exactly? Well, without kind of, you know, ruining the movie, I don't, I can't really, but it was just, if you let me do, if I do four of these movies, which was my deal, would you let me end it the way I want to end it? And she said, yes.

I wanted to push it as far as I could push it. And that's what I would hope would happen. I've never tried to steer away or hide from the fact that Bond is who he is. I've always just tried to bring everything up to him so that specifically for the female characters that they're as complicated and as difficult and as interesting as he is. But that's for selfish reasons.

I hope that the movies expand in that way, that they represent and they become a greater reflection of society. That's what we've tried to do. And nobody should be constrained. Listen, with anything, there's a few rules in Bond, and I think those rules are good. I think they're interesting and I think people want them

and I think that that's why people go and see a Bond movie. But if you get those right, then it's open season as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I've tried to show a bond that hurts, that feels that doesn't get up again so easily when they're knocked down. And I think it's possible to absolutely go anywhere you want to do. Daniel Craig, thank you so much.

And I hope to be seeing you in the theater very soon with almost anything, with almost anything. That's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's so lovely to talk to you. Daniel Craig. His last movie is James Bond, No Time to Die, is in theaters now. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Back in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Reddening. The movie Hester Street came out in 1975. But it was filmed in black and white, set in the 19th century with dialogue in Yiddish,

to accurately reflect its setting in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. A restored version of the film is in select theaters now, and it's going to be available for streaming soon. Hester Street was directed by Joan Micklin Silver, and Carol Kane played the role of Gittle, the naive young immigrant from Russia. To have a son, a man must have a wife.

A wife you can get. The one that I would ask? What if she would say no? What if she would say yes? Mrs. What are you doing? I'm saying yes. Thank you. Carol Kane was nominated for an Oscar for that role,

but she's far more familiar to us as a character actor, as a comic. This is a woman who could steal a scene with her eyes closed, and she's been doing that in shows from Taxi, Cheers, and Seinfeld to a starring role in the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. Carol Kane sat down with the New Yorker's Michael Schulman, who covers entertainment for the magazine. I first want to tell you that my sister and I grew up obsessed with Scrooge and we would quote your lines to each other as the ghost of Christmas present and we were just completely enamored. Thank you.

That was a great part I had. You beating up Bill Murray as comic gold. Well, I'll tell you, it was awfully fun, although I don't know if it was so fun for Bill. Why did you do that? Sometimes you have to see. Clap them in the face just to get their attention. Fine. Slapped me in the face.

But you kicked me in a ball. It's time to begin a journey. You know, I always think about you, Carol, as the quintessential comedic character actress. I was wondering, when you were starting out as an actress, is that how you thought of yourself? Or did you have some other plan in mind for your career? Well, that's not how it was when you. And I started out, you know, I started out as a dramatic actress. My first movie was with Mike Nichols directing and Jack Nicholson.

Carnal knowledge. That's right. And then the last detail, which was also a drama, was the great Hal Ashby. And again, Jack. Then I started in a Canadian movie named Wedding and White, which was very dramatic and tragic based on a true story. and then Hester Street, which was a drama. My first comedic role was with Gene Wilder and the world's greatest lover. I had never done anything comedic.

So that was a complete surprise. You know, Hester Street seems to be like such an unlikely movie to exist at all. You know, it's a black and white movie made it in 1970s. It's also directed by a woman, Joan McClain. silver, which was extremely rare, even in the, you know, fabled New Hollywood of the 1970s. Your part is mostly in Yiddish. Can you tell me a little bit about how you learned to do that? Did you know Yiddish before that at all?

Did you grow up with relatives speaking English? I did not because my grandparents came from Russian, Austria. My grandmother believed that she was American and she clung to that. and basically refused to speak Yiddish to me at all. So I really learned it by repetition, repetition, repetition with this teacher, an actor from the Yiddish theater, and I just worked really hard. Well, it sounds like your grandmother was very different from the character you play Gittl, because she embraced, you know, assimilation into the...

into America while Gito really resists it throughout the whole movie. She doesn't want to change. She doesn't want to stop wearing her traditional wig. Her Shidal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so much of the movie is it's really a window into the question of Jewish assimilation. You know, that's been a conflict that really has played out through a lot of American Jewish life.

I was wondering if that resonated with you and your experience growing up. We were not religious, Mike. my immediate family, my father and mother. And so we barely ever went to temple or anything. And I have some real regrets about that. I wish I was more learned, you know, about the path of the Jews and the religion, the Torah. I kind of wish there had been more tradition. Although I don't place blame on my parents for not having more tradition,

I think some people rebelled against tradition in order to be more in the modern world, I guess, and be less separate, maybe. You know, and now I'm, as you may or may not know, I'm part of a show called Hunters on Amazon Crime. That show is all about hunting Nazis that live in America in the 1970. which is all based on the truth. But when I watch what I watch to learn about that period, it's so unimaginable what happened. That I can certainly understand

that many Jews would want to back off from the intensity of the. of the religion and what happened and be in a more neutral position in society. To some degree, you could say self-protective and wise because, you know, they didn't want to be targeted again. Right. I think when you kept saying tradition, tradition over and over again, it occurred to me that Hester Street could kind of be seen as a sequel to Fiddle Her on the Roof.

Like, the same happened to all those people when they come to America and have to figure out, Can they still hold on to their traditions? You know, that's so interesting. No one's ever mentioned that before, but I think that you're right. Could be. This was just an incredible year at the Oscars. It was the year of One Floor with the Cuckoo's Nest and Nashville and Jaws and Dog Day Afternoon, which you're also in is one of the hostages.

Louise Fletcher is the one who won for one floor with the Cuckoo's Nest. Yeah. It was just an incredible year of great movies. What do you remember about going to the Oscars that year? It just was so crazy. I just, I mean, it's just so crazy to find myself at the Academy Awards. And the only Aldridge, the great costume designer, who's no longer with us. She designed me a dress for free. I was actually going to ask you about your Oscar look, because it is incredible. Anyone listening to this needs to Google Carol Kane Oscars and see your whole look. You had this incredible kind of nimbus of hair with flowers in it.

kind of gothy makeup. I always had that makeup because it was the silent movie stars were that makeup. And that's the period that I was in love with, you know, just seemed normal to me. So you were like modeling yourself on Mary Pickford or something with that big hair. I can see that. Yeah. And, you know, my biggest regret was that I didn't win for Max Burkett. I mean, I have to be honest, I would have liked to win for me too, but for Max.

And, you know, when you get nominated, and then I was at the Beverly Hills Hotel, but I was collecting unemployment while staying at the Beverly Hills Hotel doing the publicity. I get hundreds of interviews and people send you flowers and the phone rings off the hook, nonstop and move. It was like a real flurry, you know. And then the next morning, having not won, I think I literally picked up the phone to see if it was worth or not. The silence was so conspicuous. Nobody called, no more flowers, no more nothing.

And then the phone rings. And it's Jack, Nicholson. And he had just won for one floor over the cucko's nest. And he called me the next morning, and he calls me Whitey. And he said, Whitey, I'm going to pick you up and take you to lunch. and he and Angelica, who they were a couple at the time, they came and picked me up and they took me to El Cholo's a Mexican restaurant, you know, and we had lunch.

And that was such a saving grace for me. But he knew what that morning was like, you know, because he'd had that morning. So he knew what it was like to feel sort of abandoned rather abruptly. Right. Well, so you mentioned before how your comedic career really came after this movie. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how that happened, because you're nominated for this really dramatic role in Yiddish, and then your career really took a different turn of being this madcap comic character actress.

It's a turn that has offered me a lot of happy. and a lot of sadness. So after being nominated, I did not work for a solid year. The phone stayed dead. Nothing came my way. Wow. I think maybe because the role had been so specific and there were no other roles like that

and there is that thing about typecasting, which you're talking about when you say that people think of me as comedian character woman. So I didn't work and I didn't work. And then about a year later I got a phone call out of the clear blue sky from Gene Wilder who offered me this role

in the world's greatest lover of the leading lady, you know, just offered it to me. And it was a comedy. And he saw something in the performance of Gittle that he felt would be right for Annie, the character I played in the world's greatest lover.

What time is your screen test tomorrow? 4.30. What? Fourth. Oh, no. Oh, darling, it's nothing. One, two, three. It's nothing.

It'll go away. You're just a little bit. You're nervous. I'm not nervous. You got. You're the one who got me upset. You better just drop your subject. Don't count what I say and say can't tell me.

We just shouldn't say that word anymore. What words? Screen test. Why not? And then I got off. the role in taxi, which was just a guest star episode type of thing. And in those days, people that did movies didn't do TV or if they did it, meant they had taken a step down, you know.

But I knew that Jack Guilford had appeared in taxi. And I loved and adored Jack Guilford as a person in his work. And I thought, well, Jack can do it, I can do it. And I took that role. I'm a sit down. So, what do you do? I'm working at the racetrack. They have a rake which goes around and cleans up after the horses,

and they need people to sit on it to make it heavy. I'm the one in the middle. I told you that America was the land of opportunity. I love the comedy I've been able to do, but typecasting is love. limiting, you know, because that means you only play one type, you know, and it's limiting to only do comedy or only do drama. It's really nice to have the holistic version of work happening. It's strange, but, you know, not to quote the most quoted, but I must quote it because it's

the most portable, as John Lennon said, life is what happens to while you're busy making other plans. Well, Carol, thank you so much for talking with us. It's really great to chat with you, and I hope that people get out and get to see Hester Street. Me too. Thank you, Michael. The New Yorker's Michael Schulman speaking with Carol Kane. The restoration of Hester Street is in select theaters now and look for it on streaming services soon. Now, before we go, I want to take a moment for some bittersweet news. Producer Riannon Corby has left the New Yorker Radio Hour for new adventures. Riannon joined our team before the show even went on the air, and over the years, her creativity, her creativity,

and her persistence brought so many great stories to the show. I really am grateful to her and we'll all miss her. Best of luck, Rianan, and don't be a stranger. See you soon. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for listening. see you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Alexis Quadrato.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.