The New Yorker Radio Hour - Episode 27: Who Will Care for Our Parents, and the Election According to Teens

Episode Date: April 22, 2016

In this week’s episode, the activist Ai-jen Poo envisions a happier, more affordable alternative to nursing homes, and we meet a home health aide who’s formed a remarkable bond of friendship with her client. David Remnick talks with a rising star of the Democratic Party who is rumored to be a potential Vice-Presidential candidate; and, finally, the ugly truth about picture-perfect weddings. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The trees are all in leaf, and the birds are singing. May is right around the corner, and that music can only mean one thing. Mr. and Mrs. Prescott invite you to travel an uncomfortable distance to drink alcohol they have paid for in honor of their daughter, Willoughby, Ashley Sarah Prescott's marriage to Jared Elliott Weiner on the one summer weekend you didn't think. you had a wedding to attend this year. The ceremony will be officiated by a damp nostriled minister and a plump female rabbi, whom the bride's grandfather will call a lesbian in a bad try at a whisper. The bride and groom are riding their own vows and will make them even more generic than the traditional ones.

The ceremony will start late and be completely inaudible to anyone beyond the first row. afterward, please help us welcome Mr. Weiner and Ms. Prescott to their new life of wedded bliss, which will be made possible by the fact that Ms. Prescott is not taking the name Weiner. The senior Prescott's and Weeners will address this point of contention while making humorless, borderline insulting toasts about each other's children. Attempts at dancing will follow. The bride and groom have registered at crate and barrel for cornholders, egg cups, those little stirs that are used only for mint

julips, a pizza stone, and 38 slightly different spatulas. Every item on the registry will either be too inexpensive to be a sufficient gift in itself or cost more than $200 for a goddamn pizza stone. Our SVP, using the tiny card that is wedged somewhere between the fourth and seventh layers of tissue paper on this invitation. If you attend, you will be seated with a grad school roommate, it is unclear whose, and someone you met at the bride's 16th birthday party. She threw up at that and she'll throw up at this. You, the bride, and her parents all know that it will be preferable for everyone involved

if you regretfully cannot attend. And just send the pizza stone. Dearly Beloved, a story by Susanna Wolfe and performed by Deborah Monk. Coming up today on the New Yorker Radio Hour, we'll hear from a woman who wants us to look squarely at the graying of America, and instead of just panicking about it, actually do something. And we'll take a few minutes to wax nostalgic about the early days of the presidential primaries

when it seemed that the world hadn't completely lost its mind. What of the striking things about this campaign has been the degree to which income inequality has emerged as a political and moral issue. We've heard about it not just as a central point in the democratic debates, but from Republican candidates as well. Inequality is tied up completely with so many issues, tax policy, financial regulation, jobs, trade agreements, but also with housing. We have a huge discrepancy between cities with too few jobs and very little investment,

and those cities are falling apart. And then there are cities where we can. can't even afford to live. So I wanted to speak with the man who, more than any other, steers the government's policy on housing. Julian Castro was the mayor of San Antonio when he was asked to give the keynote address at the 2012 Democratic Convention, and then two years later, he was appointed to Obama's cabinet as Secretary for Housing and Urban Development. His stars rising fast in the Democratic Party, and he's been mentioned quite a lot lately as a vice presidential pick to Hillary Clinton. We spoke about the ways in

which housing policy is so intertwined with wealth inequality and racial segregation. Mr. Secretary, we're just south of some of the tallest new buildings in New York City, these giant spires that are three-quarters empty, and they represent the increasing gap, not only in income, but in housing, between the super wealthy and the poor, the middle class, and even the upper middle class. And I'd like to get a sense of how. how this subject, which is at the center of the debate, in the Democratic Party at least, about income inequality, affects housing? It's an integral part of it.

More and more families are spending more than a third, sometimes more than 50 percent of their income on the rent. And the thing is that it's not just in the usual suspect cities, New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago. It's also in middle America. How do you feel about the question of gentrification? This is an issue, the issue of gentrification and displacement that I saw and dealt with as mayor of San Antonio. We had this zoning case in which folks who had lived in a trailer park, basically were moved out, evicted from that trailer park because a new developer came in and wanted to build a luxury housing along the San Antonio River. And as mayor, I opposed the zoning case and said, let's try and slow this down.

But my experience from that was that I really couldn't think of any American city that has dealt very well with that issue of gentrification and displacement. Because you have a clash of values. You have a clash of values, and you have neighborhoods that are vulnerable and distressed. And folks in the neighborhood genuinely want some of the amenities, they want a supermarket. They want more restaurants and some investment in that neighborhood. better infrastructure. That happens. Other folks of higher income move in, and the neighborhood character and composition starts to change. And then all of a sudden you reach a tipping point where folks can't afford to live in that neighborhood. And they sell and they leave.

Yeah, some sell, some make a profit, the homeowners who have been there for a while. The inconclusive part of this, what the researchers tell me, is that there hasn't been enough longitudinal research on what happens to the residents where they go who are displaced. And so do we know definitively in each case where you see a neighborhood turn over because of gentrification that on net the impact is negative? That's where the research is sketchy right now. Isn't this all getting complicated by businesses like Airbnb? There are a lot of landlords that prefer to use their buildings as Airbnb because it's more profitable than to rent them out. Absolutely. It is complicated by that. In fact, there are a wave of cities that are looking at ordinances, some that have passed ordinances on these short-term rentals to try and regulate them.

Let me just say that I do think that if you have a proliferation of that type of short-term rentals. Is Airbnb a fair business in your mind for the social good? I think of the right measure that it can work. How do you do the right measure? What would that be? That's a good question. I'll leave that right now. to later discussion. One of the amazing things about poverty in this country now

is that it's become as much suburban as it is urban. God knows we haven't won the war on poverty in our cities, but it has become a very suburban problem as well. How does that affect housing? Number one, it means that at the local level, many of these suburbs, because you're right, there is a suburbanization of poverty, they're having to deal with issues around affordable housing,

around homelessness that they haven't had to deal with. And it's a shock to the system in many instances. But do you see the same trends that you've always seen in cities, that there's all kinds of subtle and not so subtle means of discriminatory housing? Is that happening in the suburbs with the same intensity that we saw in American cities in the earlier part of the 20th century and right through the 20th century? Oh, there is no doubt in my mind that that still exists in America and that in a number of suburbs in any given region,

you will find a strong resistance to any type of affordable housing. So, yes, we still have challenges. The approach that we have taken is that last year in 2015, we came out with a new rule called affirmatively furthering fair housing. And this is a piece of unfinished business from the 1968 Fair Housing Act that basically says the Secretary of HUD has an obligation to affirmatively furthering fair housing. their fair housing. And communities that get our dollars have to help ensure that there is a fair housing approach that happens in that community. Housing discrimination and its role in

systematic racism in our cities is so intense that a number of writers, particularly Tanahasi Coates, has included it in his main reasons for the need for reparations in this country. How do you feel about that argument? There is no question that historically the redlining that occurred early on in FHA's history, its complicity in keeping folks from opportunity because of the color of their skin, their racial or ethnic background, that that set families back. And so I definitely understand the sentiment and the logic behind that. Now, today, FHA has become a powerful vehicle for families of color, families of modest means,

to be able to get that first home loan. Now, you've gotten a lot of plaudits in the Democratic Party, but you've gotten one particular stream of criticism that I'd like you to answer. Earlier this month, the coalition of liberal groups attacked you for HUD's sale of underwater mortgages to banks. What percentage of these mortgages are going to big banks? The groups put the number at almost absolute at 98%. Yeah. So what they were talking about is something called a distressed asset stabilization program. And the idea was that for families borrowers in a home that were behind on their loan,

that we would essentially get those notes into the hands of other servicers who would work with them to try and stave off foreclosure. So yes, it's true that a lot of folks that got these, purchased these notes, are private sector actors, banks, and so forth. But the entire idea of the program and what the program is aiming at is to actually keep people in their home. But the financial institutions that are buying the most mortgages from HUD are aware. The groups that are criticizing, you say, Blackstone Group, for example, is notorious for its foreclosure record. Are you having No concerns about this? Oh, no.

I definitely wanted to make sure that we improve the program. And so in 2015, shortly after I got in, in 2014, I heard the critique that folks made, and I said, yeah, you know what, I agree with you that we want to improve the outcomes for these families. So we started a nonprofit-only pool of loans to be auctioned off that could only go to nonprofits that were trying to work in the community to have better outcomes for the borrowers and also for the neighborhoods. And we said for the folks who do buy the notes, that you have to wait an extra year before somebody can actually lose their home. So my point to

the advocates was, I think we're on the same page that we want good outcomes for those borrowers. We have made practical improvements to this program and we're going to continue to make more. The critique I had of their approach, though, was that just shouting Wall Street, sloganeering in a way, does not go to the merits of the program and how it's working and how we can actually improve it. Is that part of your critique of Bernie Sanders? You know, I haven't critiqued Sanders in that way. It's just part of my critique of, in general, what I have seen on the other side of the aisle

over these last several years is a tea party that has sloganeered to death. And we're seeing the fruit of that in Trump and in Cruz today. And on this side of the aisle, the day that we do the same thing and forego being thoughtful about policy and actually constructing something that works, the day that we go the way of just sloganeering and letting that influence what everybody does, then we're going to become the same thing that the other guys are becoming in front of our eyes. And I consider myself a pretty progressive person, and I think I have a track record that shows that. But I'm also not just going to do a policy because it's the liberal thing to do. I'm going to implement a policy because it's well thought out and it makes sense and it's

going to help those homeowners and it's actually going to work. So you're a secretary in Obama's cabinet and your brother Joaquin is a congressman representing Texas. You're both very much a part of the political establishment. And yet you come from parents who are political activists. So please tell me about them. Well, you know, my mother and father, they were never married, but they were together until we were about eight. And both of them had been active

in the old Chicano movement of the late 1960s and early 70s, which was basically the Mexican-American civil rights movement. And my mother ran for city council when she was 23 years old in San Antonio. And they were born here? My parents were born here. born here.

Here in the United States, in San Antonio. And my mother jumped into politics. Eventually, she ran for city council, and then she was part of this Raso Nida party, basically, which was a third party that said at that time that neither the Republican Party nor the Democratic Party was serving the needs of the large Hispanic community there in Texas. And she ran under a slate called the Committee for Barrio Betterment. and their slogan was give government back to the people. And the first thing that I put in my office

when I became mayor of San Antonio was an old poster, campaign poster of hers from when she ran. She ran for City Council in 1971. What did the poster say? It's just their faces and the district that they were running and has that slogan of give government back to the people

and she lost. She didn't win because there were no single-member districts, and so very few women and very few minorities did win in big cities at that time before single-member districts. After your parents split, your circumstances became particularly stressed. Yeah, you know, my brother and I were growing up with my mother and my grandmother there on the west side of San Antonio. I remember when we applied to college that that year that we were applying, my mother had made $19,000 or $20,000, and my grandmother was getting a few hundred dollars. every month in Social Security check.

Joaquin and I both got admission into Stanford University, and then a couple of weeks later we got the bill for how much it would cost. What was the bill at that time? At that time, Stanford cost between $27,000 and $28,000 all in per person, which is probably a bargain day, but there was no way that these two women who had worked hard their entire lives could afford that opportunity for us. The only reason that I was blessed with the opportunity I had to go to Stanford was that my family had worked hard and my brother and I had worked hard in school.

But then also there were Pell Grants and there were Perkins loans and there was federal work study. The recipe for success in this country has been expecting hard work from individuals and their families. But then when that happens, matching that with an investment in opportunity. And what we need in this 21st century is an updated blueprint for opportunity for folks. But that's how I look at the potential for government. What's the most creative way someone has tried to ask you whether you will be the vice presidential nominee? And what's the tape loop you spin to deny it? Usually they're kind enough to be fairly straightforward about it.

I'm not. I've legitimately been asked that question. I think 47,000 times. Yeah, many times. I don't know what's going to happen. I honestly don't believe that that's going to happen. And I do expect to be back in Texas next year. Fair enough.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Julian Castro, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for the Obama administration, and a rising star in the Democratic Party. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour and in a minute, the presidential primaries reimagined by high school students. We need to stop being losers, guys.

Trump is not a loser. I think I like this Trump a lot better than the real one. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The primary election just took place in New York, and it's certainly looking like we can at least guess who the nominees are going to be.

But right now we're going to do a little. little blast from the past, with a story from early in the primary season when people named Bush and Fiorina and Christie were still contenders, and Bernie Sanders seemed like a mere protest candidate. Back in November, the New Yorker's Josh Rothman visited a high school in Queens Townsend Harris High School that does the most all-out mock election you've ever heard of. If any of you don't know, I'm Donald Trump, but I mean, everyone here should know that by now. they've even watched the news. I mean, the media loves me, guys.

I'm all over it all day, every day. Right? If you're wondering who you're listening to, his name is Matthew McCandrew, and he's a senior at Townsend Harris High School. He's been given the most coveted assignment of the fall, being Donald Trump. Luckily, with so many candidates running for president right now,

there are a lot of starring roles to go around. Max Lekoma, I'm playing Jeb Bush. Hi, my name is Yasmin Ali. I'm a senior at Townsend Harris. and in the election simulation, I'm playing Hillary Clinton. Hello, my name is Jacob Hutter, and I played Bernie Sanders in the election simulation game. Do you like Ben Carson in real life? No, not at all.

So why did you want to be... What drew you did? He's a neurosurgeon, and I thought this might be the closest I ever gets to being a doctor. I visited Townsend Harris for their big kickoff rally, which the whole senior class comes together in a courtyard outside the school. Everyone gives big, exciting speeches. These are incredibly smart students. They're some of the smartest kids you'll ever meet.

And the whole senior class participates. So there are pollsters, there are newspaper reporters, there are even super PACs and fundraisers, and money is a really big part of the simulation. So when I met them, some of the students were just getting into their roles and others were totally naturals. To turn this country around, we need to stop being losers, guys. We're losing to China.

We're losing to Mexico. financially in our education and on the border. And something you should know about me, I refuse to lose. All right? Trump is not a loser. Ten seconds. Don't rush me. We need to turn this country around before it's too late, and I'm your man, okay? We are going to make America great again.

Thank you. You are listening to Hawk Radio 201.6. Just like in the real presidential election, the kids make the rounds on political talk shows. Hello, welcome to Morning Hawk. I'm your host, Danielle, and I'm Jacqueline. It's time for the Townsend Minute. Last Friday, students gathered to attend the presidential primary election simulation kickoff rally, where candidates and special interest groups were able to discuss their goals for the future of America. At the kickoff rally, Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton were very confident with their speeches and seemed to win over the crowd.

I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm running. Everybody, I'm Jeb Bush. America's in a big problem right now. Donald Trump brought a comedic approach with his statement, Don't rush me. seconds. Don't rush me. Carly Fiorina seemed distant and although Bernie Sanders started off roughly, he managed to regain composure. It's time that we allow our future children and grandchildren to live the life that they should

by allowing universal health care. And that's your Townsend Minute. The campaigns also run political ads and they take a lot of creative liberty. C to the A to the R-O-Y. Vote Carly Fiorina. I'll tell you why. She's not going to fail our nation with any more problems. her opponents she can actually solve them.

Education makes you want to walk out of the door no more. She's off the common court. She supports small bids in the dream. I'm not even scared of Vladimir-rooting. President Trump, Carson, Bush, and even Ted Cruz, because unlike them, she is never, ever going to lose. If you want to live in a greater USA then, go call it Farina on Election Day.

So, I should point out that Townsend Harris is a pretty unique public high school. It's incredibly elite. It's incredibly competitive. Kids from around New York City apply to get in. the whole, it's pretty liberal, but there are definitely some conservative kids. So you're Jeb. Yes. Hey, I'm Josh.

Hi. Nice to meet you. Do you like Jeb Bush? I do. I'm one of the only conservative people in this school, and I agree with his views. I agree with a lot of the conservative candidate's views, so it'll be pretty easy for me to portray that. Is there any possibility that it would actually be better to be unsympathetic to your

candidate's point of view? I don't necessarily agree with his immigration. policy, he's a little more moderate with his immigration. I'm more towards Trump on immigration policy in real life. So that's, I think, the most drastic thing that I'll have to, or per se, lie about. Okay, now Townsend Harris is in Queens, which is the most diverse borough in New York City, and more than half of the students are from immigrant families. So that means that the real Donald Trump's message about immigration is not one that's going to go over very well with the student body. And unfortunately, for the fake Donald Trump, he's just stuck with it. He has to mirror

the candidate that he's been assigned. I agree that there are some good Mexicans, but right now the ones that are coming into this country are bringing with them their crime, their drug use, and it's really just not helping our country get better. Thank you, Mr. Trump. Now let's take a quick commercial break. These kids really learn the facts about their candidates.

In some ways, they're more informed than the average voter, but they also have to confront the pervasive BS of our political system. The media love to ask gotcha questions, and the candidates get really good at dodging them. Hillary in particular is a master of the art of the pivot. Your husband is former president Bill Clinton. Do you feel that you are running in his shadow? And if elected, how would you run things differently?

Well, I don't like to compare my campaign to my husbands because I am running a separate campaign. This is the Hillary Clinton campaign, not the Bill Clinton campaign. And I don't believe you can truly compare our economic policies because his policy was enforced during a completely different financial situation. But my plan does call for more investment in infrastructure, scientific research, a greater tax relief for the middle class, and a system that can create affordable education. So it seems like the major challenge that you guys have to overcome is like boredom with Hillary, like familiarity. It's not like Donald Trump. Like everyone wants to interview Donald Trump. But you guys don't have that, right? I think. Yeah, I think, I don't think Hillary is looked at as an entertaining candidate, but I believe that

if we inform ourselves to the best of our abilities, that a candidate for presidency should be knowledgeable and not necessarily an entertainer. Just like in real life, the media and the candidates have partly an adversarial relationship where, you know, hard-hitting reporters are asking tough questions. But also, just like in real life, they also work together to make politics as entertaining as possible.

Back, it's time for the Goldenhawks. All results were taken from either the newspaper or information gathered from social media, I'm sorry, caller. We're not taking any more calls. So the best Facebook page goes to Donald Trump. He had the most posts and likes. And the worst candidate in the polls is John Kasich with only 3% of freshman support and 0% from sophomores, juniors and seniors. Mr. Kasich, would you like to respond? I don't know. Vote for me on Election Day.

Okay. That's all I have to say. Obviously, we're listening to high school kids. But at the same time, the longer that I spent at the election simulation, the more I started to wonder how different is real politics from high school fundamentally. And the best TV commercial is Bush, Rubio, and Cruz with their popular ads stump the Trump. Okay, I mean, it's not exactly like high school, but I have to say it would be pretty amazing if the real Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, and Marco Rubio got together to make one anti-Donald Trump attack. So it's all pretty serious, because there are real issues you're a patriot, at least that's going to support our immigrants.

That's a sugar back, back, spit some sugar facts, you got your campaign because it's lame and they can't wrap. So it's all pretty fun, but it's also pretty serious because there are real issues that are really at stake and real feelings really do come into play. And that all came to a head during the debate when those feelings really blew up. Mr. I would change was real.

You said that it didn't exist. Can you explain your... It's a little hard to understand, but what just happened was, Jeb Bush challenged Marco Rubio's statements about climate change by saying, you flip-flop, just like Hillary Clinton. At this point, Hillary, who's been waiting in the wings, strides on stage, and she is pissed. Naturally, she defends herself. Then Donald Trump crosses a line.

He accuses Hillary of PMSing, and the crowd goes absolutely nuts. You've insulted every woman in this room, she says. 70% of the students in this school are women. When you're in the debate and you're being Donald Trump and you're saying crazy Donald Trump stuff, like, do you have to, I don't know, did that give you any insight into the real Donald? There's definitely like a line to be drawn

when you're talking in his school, but I mean, I don't think he sees that even when it's like national TV. But, I mean, it was definitely like a different experience where you can really just say whatever. on your mind and not really have any punishment for it, even though there was almost, like, consequences in the school after that. No way.

There was talks of kicking us out of the campaign, like, just eliminating our campaign in general after that because they felt it was not something that should be said in the school, but the government teachers argued that it was, we were staying accurate with our candidates, so they decided to let us keep running. In general, do you think that your experience here and the dynamics between Hill or and the Republicans here are representative of what's happening in the real, real world? I think so because I think our both debates were very, like, were basically a mirror image of what happened in the actual debates.

The Republicans were very off topic. The Democrats were very common on topic. But what Hillary does most of the time is she doesn't really attack her fellow Democrats. She more so attacks the Republican candidates. And especially Donald Trump, I know she has her and Donald go back and forth all the time. So I think, I'm pretty sure this does go on in real life. Good morning Harris. Welcome to Morning Hawk. Don't forget to vote next Monday during lunch bands 4, 5, 6, and 7. You'll need to know your Townsend Harris.org login information and voting will hopefully be available before and after school as well.

Good morning, Townsend Harris. Here are the results of the election simulation primary election. In the Republican Party, Jeb Bush. Hillary Clinton, thank you everybody for coming out to vote, and thank you for a wonderful election simulation. And here are the morning announcements. Looking back on the whole simulation, I have to say, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, it made me really optimistic about the future. I was so impressed by these students, I thought they were amazing. And not only did they learn a lot about politics, but they really care about the issues.

And I hope a lot of them are in charge someday. On the other hand, the political system that they so effectively emulated is totally messed up. That's one of the things that it captured. So, if I had to sum it up, I'd say, I wish the system they were simulating was a little more admirable and a little less like high school. Chilling on this first floor strolling around, wondering what all the fuss floating was about. News giving big styles and laughing like hyenas when all of us aren't heard by Carly Farina. Ooh! She's too real.

Down with the Dreamack and the Kinsirandio. Now that I know her, I haven't been left to say, except now I know what I'm going to do Monday. I voted Carly on Election Day, because she'll really make her country great. Equality for women and men and power to the state will be given again. Her crew was ill. Her intelligence have no chill. So on Election Day, don't forget, Carly Farina is your best best. Oh, man.

If Carly Fearina had hired those kids to do her media, she might just might be in the race right now. Josh Rothman reported from the Townsend Harris High School. Next year's senior class will be simulating the general election. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Rachel Levieve is a staff writer at The New Yorker, and recently she's been exploring the day-to-day realities of home health aids. What it's like to care for a stranger, often in very intimate ways. And in turn, what it's like for the recipients of.

that care. Here's Rachel. These are strangers who end up spending years of their lives together, and their relationships can be incredibly intimate and often very challenging. I was really curious about that dynamic, so I ended up interviewing a lot of home health aids and the people that they care for. Well, I've MS for 15 years, so I've seen good, bad, ugly, horrible. I had one who did nothing. I had another one who was texting her boyfriend all the time. This is Kathy. We're sitting at her kitchen table. in the Pelham Parkway Housing Project in the Bronx, a few blocks from where she grew up. Then I had other ones who, they said, we can't change your bed today.

I said, oh, why not? I had these four weeks. She goes a couple of weeks would be okay, and I can't do it anymore. So then I called my nurse. I said she has to leave. Kathy's home health aid Valerie is sitting at the table with her. They are by far the closest of all the client and home health aid pairs that I talked with. Valerie says that she'd had a string of difficult clients before she met Kathy. I had this lady and she used to borrow my money. Borrow her?

Yes. But she never paid me back. Then I realized that she was doing drugs. And she's telling me, I'm going to the bathroom. I left a blouse or something. Can you please wash it out for me? And then when I go, I realized it's her boyfriend stuff. And then he used to follow me around,

about my legs, and I said, about your legs? You mean? You're going, oh, look at that legs, look at that walk. And that used to piss me off. I heard a lot of stories about verbal abuse and wage theft. Lots of clients wanted their home health aides to be their housekeepers, too. One aide told me that her boss used to spit on the floor to see how quickly she would notice and then clean it up.

Clients also told me how hard it was to lose their autonomy and accept help from a stranger. Both of Kathy's parents were blind. Kathy grew up learning how important it was to be self-reliant when you have a disability. But after she was diagnosed with MS in 2001, it didn't take long for her to realize that she was going to need a lot more help than her parents had. I fell out of the bed. They thought I broke my hip. And I was in bed for three months. I had no home care.

I had nothing. Because I was afraid they would take my kids away. What is the logic there? Why did you think they might take her kids away? When you have parents who have handicapped, my parents were lying. Many parents have lost their children because they can't do this, they can't do that. And I knew if I could not get out of bed and I had a 2-year-old, a 10-year-old and a 12-year-old, I was done. So I didn't want anyone to know.

And it was so funny because Michael, he cannot handle MS at all. That's your most? That's my oldest. So the middle one, he would bathe his little sister. He would turn me. I never had a bed saw in three months. He would make sure I was clean. He fed me because from the neck down I was like almost immobile.

Crazy. And then, you know, I got up. I learned to walk again. With all the unhelpful aides and nasty clients, both Kathy and Valerie were wary when they first met. You don't know what's behind the door when you come to the door. You're expecting anything. So I came in and showed her my ID.

And she goes, so she swatted it away. Yes. So then it's lunchtime. I said, I'm going to have whatever for lunch. Would you like some? She said, she goes, oh, I have my lunch in my bag. I said, well, why didn't you put it in the refrigerator? She said, I can.

I'm like, why wouldn't you? She said, well, you know, some people, I said, no, no, no, no. I'm not some people. If your lunch is cold, put it in the fridge. She said, yes, Miss Kathy. I said, and if you call me Miss Kathy again, I will smash your sandwich. Both Kathy and Valerie had seen patients

who bossed around their home health aides and treated them like servants. Kathy made it clear from the beginning the way they interacted would be different. Because this is a person that not only for me has to maybe sweep and have to do intimate things and help me in and out of the shower,

help me keep my legs lotion. Things, you know, touch me. Like people normally don't like to be touched, but this person has to do. touch me skin to skin and it's not easy and you have to trust somebody for that. And how do you allow those boundaries to get crossed? I mean, I imagine at one time the idea of someone touching you in that way, particularly someone you hadn't known ever before, would have been not an idea you could really accept. How do you sort of get your mind to a place where that's okay?

I had to accept that I was not safe doing it on my own. Now I accept that. I'm not safe. have to realize that that two seconds of a person helping you take a shower keeps you clean. I had to put my mind around it that if I don't let her help me, I'm not going to get to wash my hair. I'm not going to change clothes. Let me stop and accept help. The hardest thing is to ask somebody to help you. And she's just stand there and watch, like, something will fall.

I'll pick it up. I think. Then it'll fall. I'll try to pick it up. And Valerie's just looking at me like, I know you're going to ask me to help you. And then I'll say, if you don't mind, could you please pick that up? She was like, amen. She's like family to us.

And do you think of it as a, your ages are so close that I wouldn't think it'd be a kind of mother-daughter dynamic. Is it more of a sister dynamic? Yes. Just this year, I turned 49 on my birthday. And someone said, I'm taking you to lunch for your birthday. Now, I have not eaten out in six years. I'm terrified of eating out because I have a trauma in my right hands. I can't use a fork anymore.

I have to use a spoon. And I'm like a little embarrassed. I mean, that's true. I feel funny. So she goes, okay, you're ready to go. And I'm panicking. And we go out to eat. And I'm thinking, I can't do this.

I can't do this. And we go to Red Robin, and we have a ball. And like, I just roll. to the table. It wasn't a big deal. And I said, can you cut my hamburger in half? I asked for help. And I was so scared. She's always like washing, like people is waiting on her. So she tried to go faster. I mean worrying that people are. We're going to say that she's too slow. And I'm telling her, take your time. Nobody's washing you. Take your time. And I was so blown like, wow, I can go out and eat. I can knock on wood, be normal. And I called

everybody I know. I put it on Facebook. I said, I overcame my fear because of Valerie. And it was a big fear because I always feel like I'm taking up somebody's space or I'm too slow, right? And Valerie says, let them wait. They should be lucky that they could walk. This relationship is especially unusual for Valerie. She says she doesn't have any friends, and she describes herself as a bookish loner. For years, she worked alone at home, weaving scarves, and she was happy with that life. But when the work dried up, she took a job as a home health aide, earning less than $10 an hour. She's been working with Kathy for a few years now, and she says it's kind of like spending time with one of her seven sisters. I have one sister that we are very, very close, and it's like when

I'm talking to Cathy sometimes like I'm talking to her. Kathy come up with all kind of funny jokes that you don't expect. And I told her one day she's going to give me a heart attack because I was laughing so hard.

My stomach was hurting. She is funny beyond control. And do your sisters ever get jealous of the relationship? No. Yeah. Now my sister doesn't get jealous. What do our kids say? Our kids say to us, her sons, my kids, I was like, I love Valerie.

She's so good for me. She's like a sister that, like, she's your age. She has to like you. And what do they tell you? The same thing. You can't say Ms. Cathy is your friend. Your son says this? Yes, she's not your friend.

But you are crazy. Yes. And you only have a friend because you have to be here. Exactly. Both Kathy and Valerie's families are a little suspicious of their intimacy. They assume that if most, money is changing hands, their feelings can't be real. Valerie also believes that if the agency she works for knew how close she and Kathy had become,

they'd reassign her. She said that the agency discourages AIDS from becoming too close with their clients. Remember, every exam, every holiday, she's here. I went on vacation a few times, and she kept calling them, asking her when I'm coming back. And she had a replacement. Horrible. Horrible. But the truth is, without the agency's job,

Kathy wouldn't have Valerie's help, and Valerie would have to move on. I think after being with Cathy all these years, I guess I will stop working for the agency. Because I went through a lot before I get here. And I don't want to go through that again. I really don't want to go through that. So you just retired?

Yeah, I'm getting old, so. I didn't expect I would be, so long at the agency. I said I was going to do like a year two. I guess after I met her, I just settled. Well, not really settled for you, but you know what I mean? No, no. Me, unfortunately, I'm going to have to have somebody else if they ever get rid of her. I always say, please let me hit Lotto so I can pay. I always say that, just let me hit enough Lado to keep that.

That's Kathy Kiler and Valerie David talking with Rachel LeVee in the Bronx. Now, if you've ever had a home health aid or you've had to arrange home care for an elderly parent, here's somebody you might want to know about. I Jen Poo is the director of the National Domestic Workers Alliance. For her, the issue is not just better wages and working conditions. That's important. But she's also asking all of us to change our attitudes and our policies about these kinds of arrangements. And there's a real sense of urgency about this given how many of us in the Baby Boom,

generation may be in need of home health care before too long. She's written a book called The Age of Dignity, Preparing for the Elder Boom in a Changing America. Igen-Poo spoke with the New Yorker's executive editor, Dorothy Wickenden. So one thing that struck me is that you work with two groups that have become almost invisible in this country, the elderly and the workers who care for them. And I just wonder, what inspired you to pursue this as a career? Well, I had the great fortune of being raised by my grandparents. So I grew up watching my grandfather practice Tai Chi in the mornings in the driveway, my grandmother teaching me my values, but also very practical things.

She potty trained me. She taught me how to speak Chinese. And so my grandparents just played such a huge role in shaping who I am today. and their care experiences really informed my choices to take up this work. And you were raised by your grandmother because your mother was working? Yes, so when my mother first came to this country and she had me, she was working, she was learning English, she was in school, all at the same time. And so I actually spent early years living in Taiwan with my grandparents. And then later on, my grandparents actually came to the United States to take care of my sister and I.

And is your grandmother still alive? Yes. My grandmother still lives independently in her own apartment and is still very engaged in our family life and in the community. And I'm so fortunate that that's the case. One of the things you say is that the country's fastest growing demographic is people over the age of 85. And usually people are not prepared. That's right. My family didn't have a plan.

And what ended up happening was my grandfather. When he lost his vision, my father had to place him in a nursing home against his wishes. And that experience of visiting him in the nursing home stays with me to this day. I remember he shared a room with six other people. Half of them were completely still and unmoving. The other half in extreme amounts of suffering. My grandfather hadn't slept or eaten for days, and he begged me to take him from there and bring him home. And I do think that for many, that has been the dominant model, the nursing home model where it is a very cold institutional context where you don't have control over when you eat, when you sleep, who you share a room with.

I mean, there's so many basic things. What does it mean to live when you don't have the ability to determine how you live? And so what I'm thinking we're going to have to do is actually have a conversation as a country. about how we prepare for the growing aging population in this country. And I do believe that planning and thinking ahead is a huge opportunity to address a number of challenges that we've needed to address for some time. How do we do that, though, given the fact that this is pretty much a taboo subject until, as we've said, we actually have to talk about it. It's part of our terror of dying. It's part of our fear of getting older and of disease. How do you change what has become

for many generations in this country, just a way of dealing with something we don't want to deal with, putting them away in nursing homes, where, by the way, it is not cheap. This is an expensive way of caring for the elderly, even in the most rudimentary nursing homes. Exactly. Time and time again, it's been proven that aging in community in our homes is a much more cost-effective way to live, and it's much, much more affordable than. institution-based care. But will it remain affordable if these workers are being paid as much as they certainly deserve to be paid?

It is absolutely a challenge to think about the finances of caregiving. We're one of the only developed countries that provides no support whatsoever for child care or elder care. And it's really left up to individuals to figure out how to make it work. there's a myth out there that Medicare will cover long-term care, and it's just not the case. No, it isn't. I discovered that myself, among many of these other things, as you don't learn about it until you're dealing with it. Right, and so your only options are to completely deplete your assets and your resources and get on Medicaid, or to purchase very expensive long-term care insurance, which oftentimes doesn't cover what you need when you need it,

And for the millions of us, for whom those two options don't actually make sense, there's really nothing in place. And I think it's an opportunity. Because what's ending up happening is we're paying for this in incredibly inefficient and ineffective ways. For example, the average private room stay in a nursing home is over $150,000 per year in New York. I mean, that is unimaginable for the 27 million people who are. are going to need care by the year 2030. And that doesn't even take into account the medical bills.

Right. And when we talk about the medical bills, what we are finding is that we can actually save the health care system, a tremendous amount of money if we actually provide good home care on the front end. The best prevention is actually good care. If you have a trained home care worker supporting you, you can better manage chronic illnesses. You can keep people with dementia Alzheimer's out of expensive institutions for longer. You can keep people out of emergency rooms and prevent unnecessary readmittances. I mean, when you

have trained caregivers who actually have the ability to provide the kind of quality care that this job is about, then you can actually save billions of dollars in the health care system. That's the one argument that Congress may be receptive to. Do any of these issues or any of these issues addressed in the Affordable Care Act? There was an attempt to address them in the Affordable Care Act through a measure called the Class Act. And it was decided that that piece of the Affordable Care Act would not move forward. But there are many advocates who are trying to figure out how do we revive that piece in a way that's economically viable. And one thing that's exciting is we're working on a measure in the state of Hawaii, which would create the first in the country's social insurance fund for long-term care.

And what that means is that every Hawaiian, universal, there's no income requirement, but every Hawaiian would have access to up to 365 days of economic support of up to $70 per day to help them pay for the care that they need. And it's really biased towards a home care model to really support people to be able to stay in their homes and in their communities. So it's a really exciting innovation that Hawaii is really taking the lead on, and we're starting to get interest from other states to figure out could this work in Maine, could this work in Minnesota or other places where states are trying to get ahead of the curve. And do you have Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton, it does seem as though this would be an issue that Hillary Clinton would be

very receptive to. Has she responded? Her campaign has released some very strong principles around caregiving. And I don't think that the other candidates have addressed caregiving directly yet. And one of the things we're looking towards is actually the 2018 midterm elections. When the electorate that comes out to vote during midterms skews a little bit older. And we think that that will be a really interesting opportunity to engage voters and really try to elevate this issue as the defecutive. finding issue of the midterm elections in 2018. Interesting. Did you try to do that in the last midterm

election? No, but we did some pilot experiments to really test whether this could be something that people are moved by. And we found that indeed, it is the case in rural parts of Ohio and in New Hampshire, people are ready to talk about this. So, Jen, do you ever get discouraged? The change is so slow coming and yet you are so hopeful and I hope there are many more out there like you. But how do you keep going when you have a bad day, a bad week, a bad month? You know, I am so inspired and energized anytime I'm in a room with caregivers. I mean, their job is to go to work every day and focus on how to uphold the dignity of the people that they're caring for. You know, can I interrupt you just for a second because it suddenly occurred to me.

I had a somewhat different experience than this. My mother had a stroke a number of years ago and has dementia. And so I tried having a home caregiver for a little while. And I constantly felt caught between the complaints of my mother and the complaints of the caregiver. And sometimes there's a racial tension. You know, they don't like the way they cook. the caregiver feels that they're being discriminated against. It's a very tough thing to negotiate.

It can be absolutely. And, you know, there's a whole host of reasons that that is true, and there's lots of dynamics to navigate. I mean, we're talking about families. And so there's already a lot of complexity within the family dynamic, and you add in a caregiver, oftentimes who has their own family and their own pressures and their own stresses. and it is a pressure cooker for everyone, especially if somebody is aging or has dementia and their changes happening that feel incredibly unsettling.

And then you also have a situation where there are no training standards for home care workers and personal care aids, and so a lot of people are entering into situations that they haven't been prepared for, which is why I'm a big advocate of really figuring out how we prepare this workforce and equip them with,

the tools and the skills and the ideas for how to navigate all the different complexities and what to expect, including the cultural competency issues and navigating cultural differences inside of a home. Aijan, thank you so much. Wonderful talking to you. Thank you for having me. Aijen Poo, the director of the National Domestic Workers Alliance. Her book is called The Age of Dignity, and she spoke with Dorothy Wickendon. You're listening to The New Yorker Radio Hour, but that's the book. That's it for today.

By the way, if you missed it, please go back and listen to the story we aired last week on the investigation of Syrian war crimes. It's by a reporter named Ben Taub and was supported by the Pulitzer Center for Crisis Reporting. You'll find it at New YorkerRadio.org. Next week, I'll talk with Annie Dillard, one of the great essayists and nature riders of our time. Stay in touch with us on Twitter at New Yorker Radio, and above all, have a great week. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garvis of Tuneiards

with additional music from Alexis Quadrato. This episode was produced by Emily Boutin, Ave Carrillo, Riannon, Corby, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Sharon Meshihi, Sarah Nix, Paul Schneider, and Stephen Valentino, with help from Alex Barron, Becky Cooper, and Matt Fiddler. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund. Thank you.