The New Yorker Radio Hour - Erin Brockovich Takes on Data Centers

Episode Date: August 18, 2026

Since a famous case against a California utility, the name Erin Brockovich has become synonymous with a fighter taking on big polluters. Earlier this year, Brockovich began receiving e-mails from people worried about the construction of A.I. data centers, which is happening at a frenetic rate all over the country. People expressed concerns about the loss of farmland and natural areas; disruptions to the water table; deleterious noise; and substantial usage of electricity and water, leading to rising utility bills. She speaks with David Remnick about her mapping project to document data-center construction and environmental complaints. “In my thirty years,” she tells Remnick, “I’ve never really seen the people show up like they are at a very local level.”  Further reading: “A.I. Is Now a Major Election Issue,” by Benjamin Wallace-Wells “Inside the Data Centers That Train A.I. and Drain the Electrical Grid,” by Stephen Witt   New episodes of The New Yorker Radio Hour drop every Tuesday and Friday. Join host David Remnick as he discusses the latest in politics, news, and current events in conversation with political leaders, newsmakers, innovators, New Yorker staff writers, authors, actors, and musicians. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The name, Aaron Brockovich, has been synonymous with a fighter taking on big polluters. And, of course, many of us remember her from the film, which dramatized a landmark case against a California utility, Pacific Gas and Electric, which had poisoned the groundwater in a small town. Julia Roberts played Aaron Brockovich. These people don't dream about being rich. They dream about being able to watch their kids swim in a pool without worrying that they'll have to have a hysterectomy at the age of 20, like Rosa Diaz, a client of ours, or have their spine deteriorate like Stan Bloom, another client of ours.

So before you come back here with another lame-ass offer, I want you to think real hard about what your spine is worth, Mr. Walker. Or what you might expect someone to pay you for your uterus, Miss Sanchez. then you take out your calculator and you multiply that number by a hundred. Anything less than that is a waste of our time. By the way, we had that water brought in special for you folks. Came from Well and Hinkley. Erin Brockovich has been involved in other major cases against polluters since then, and she runs a research firm that consults for lawyers.

Earlier this year, she began receiving emails from people worried about the construction of AI data centers. something that's happening at a frenetic pace all over the country. Aaron Brockovich. Hey, how are you? How are you? Good. Good. How are you? I'm good. You making some good trouble? I didn't set out to do that, but apparently yes.

Yes, you did. Who are you kidding? I really. It was a total surprise to me. Aaron, it's been 30 years, 30 years. I know. We're going to start this way. It's been 30 years since a certain legal case about groundwater contamination changed your life and the lives of a lot of other people and inspired the movie that we know you by. And you've been filing lawsuits around chemical pollutants for years thereafter. Now you're involved with data centers.

You're involved in this for a fairly brief time, right, just for a few months. And you're collecting information. This is the beginning of your process. How would you assess what the opposite? position is to the construction of data processing centers, how much pushback has already begun against the tech companies on this? A lot. This is, in my 30 years, I've never really seen the people show up like they are at a very local level, just down in Florida, and they got a moratorium, the city council meeting went on for 12 hours. And it just, it was an overflow. And every city council

meeting now, you're just seeing this huge overflow of people. When I started the map, when a community reached out to me. Explain what the map is. So it's pretty simple. It's called Brockovich data center, but it's a map where people who have data centers being developed, proposed, or up and running in and around the country can report their issues to the map. And it comes to me in a submission, you know, I go through 12,000 and I read each one. So for me, it was a visual to see the bigger picture. What does the map look like? Well, with all the red dots now, it's getting pretty hard. It's getting pretty hard to see.

It's coast-to-coast data centers. It's coast-to-coast data centers. And so... That's pretty incredible. It's very incredible. And it's actually really very concerning. You know, they're building in many drought-restricted areas. And I don't know that people always understand. And, you know, listen, this has been a huge learning curve for me. And I'm learning. from the people on the inside, the workers, the people, the city hall, and everybody, the amount in the consumption of water is almost staggering. And the bigger hyper-scales can use anywhere from one to seven, possibly eight million gallons of water per day. Now, what does a data center do in terms of the environmental drag on a, a community. So what they're reporting is, and this is not just a few towns here, it's just everybody has the same report. A, during the construction phase, these are not

small facilities. They're 2,200 acres. They're 3,000 acres. They're 4,000 acres. And the first thing that they get extremely upset about is the destruction of the land. You're talking rural land. So all the trees, all the vegetation, all the farmland, all goes away. It's disruptive to their sanctuary. It's disruptive to the wildlife. People are definitely reporting changes in the wildlife, the absence of wildlife, dead wildlife, and they find that very concerning. And in the construction phase, Wells can often get damaged. The construction for people that are there will tell you is almost violent. You can feel the ground shaking so all your water can get very turbid. People have lost their well pressure. Their wells have been damaged. They're having to drill for deeper wells. And the gentleman that I reported on, Austin Newsom is his name. And he's in a litigation. But his house is unlivable at this point. Because now the water, you can't drink the water, you can't bathe the water, the water pressure's too low. He's got young children and they just can't, I mean, they can't live without water and they can't now drink their water. And I'm really surprised at the number of reports, consistent reports from varying states on these large data centers is the 24-7 humming, the decibels, how far they go out, how disruptive. it is. It's just a nonstop, almost buzz, hum in their ears 24-7, and they're finding extremely disruptive,

creating a lot of anxiety. More and more information is coming in now by submission. People now reporting their utility bills. You know, a water bill that was $30 is now almost $300. Why has it gone up so fast? because of all the energy that has to be required to build these huge data centers. So the locals are paying the bill? Correct. And they're starting to send in their before and after electric bills. So on the map, we kind of will list stats of the number of people that have reported how many have now reported electrical issues and water bill increases.

And that is definitely on the rise. but I have one woman and she says, you know, I'm on a fixed income. So now it's, do I pay my electric bill or eat? We are, and I am seeing some reports, and this is where I'm going to start going out to these ranches, to these locations, with these communities to see exactly what's happening. But they're starting to report. They're noticing that they're seeing more stillbirths in the cows. So there are a lot of things. demonstrably the fault of data centers, do we have any evidence of that?

No. What they're saying is since the data centers came in and began up and running with this constant noise, it seems that they're now noticing more stillbirths. So we'll stipulate that that's going to require more research to figure out if there's any relations. Oh, my gosh, yes. Yeah. So let me ask you this.

What laws, if any, are being broken in the construction of these data centers, whether it's in rural areas or near closer to suburban areas? I'm definitely getting reports from people working inside and from the counties and the cities that there was inappropriate permitting, inappropriate zoning. That is definitely a big issue for everybody at the city council level, how they got in, how they came in as a pretense of a warehouse, they were a data center, that type of thing at a very local level.

level. I'm not quite sure what you mean by inappropriate. And are you suggesting that government officials are profiting in some way by giving permits, building permits, and the like? Well, according to many communities at their local levels, they're showing up. They're changing zoning ordinances. Some are building without the appropriate permits. And yeah, I think it's very difficult for city council members when these big tech giants come in. And, and, and, you know, I think it's very difficult for city council members, and they offer, you know, they want money for the city. So they're getting money for that. And the people had no say in that.

And they're also saying the money that they did receive wasn't changing their environment for the better. So that seems to be the crux of the problem. Who decides, who gets to decide about the construction of a data center and then who profits and how if there is one? And then what effect on the public health there is. Am I right? Yes. And the big issue is non-disclosure. Nobody was informed of anything. There was no city council meeting for the ones that are being proposed now that they know there was a non-disclosure, but now they're having city council meetings. So they're asking local government officials to sign NDAs about arrangements between tech companies and the purchase of real estate?

Yes. Everyone's been reporting that. It's been a non-disclosure agreement. that a city council level who are in charge, you've got to go to the local council to get your permits to build and zone and they're changing zoning ordinances are signing non-disclosures. I'm talking with Aaron Brockovich. More in a moment.

Aaron, you've got Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez trying to put together a AI data center moratorium Act, how prevalent is that in American politics? In other words, how much support do you see out there for this kind of moratorium? So, well, there's federal, there's state, and there's local. When we started, the moratoriums were starting to come. And maybe 12 weeks ago, it was maybe over 100 local counties and cities in multiple. states had put on either pauses for six months, moratoriums for at least two years, because now as city council and states have seen the pushback from the people, they're like, let's wait,

because now city council wants to know more information. And we have seen some flat out bans. We had one here in California in Monterey Park where they flat out ban it. We've now seen 300 municipalities with moratoriums and or bans. We've now seen 14 states that have come in with possible, you know, state oversight, and we just saw New York completely ban them. So it's kind of growing in regards to the moratorium and what kind of, we just have no information. I mean, everybody in any leadership, it's like, wait a minute, you've got to tell us what you're doing. Who's going to pay for the electrical?

What is going with the water? What is going to be your water consumption? What size of land mass do you need? And so now you were seeing, as you said, Bernie Sanders and AOC, looking at some federal oversight. And I'm watching that get some momentum. Does the political debate break down along party lines or is it bipartisan? It's bipartisan. I'm definitely seeing that. That is pretty well known as everyone's starting to talk more and more and more and more about the data centers. Do you think it'll be a campaign issue in the midterms and in the presidential election in 2020?

I do. Well, possibly, yes. So I don't know if you watch the situation and I watched with fascinating. the situation that happened out in Utah. And the people just showed up in huge numbers, so much so. And they were so upset about the size of the facility, the damage it could do to the Great Salt Lake. Utah is already in a huge drought.

In fact, Aaron, the president of the state Senate in Utah just lost his seat over this issue. Yes. I do think this could be a very important thing for the leaders. And I really, I've always been this way. And ever since I began my work in Hinkley, I've just never understood it. When you have issues so important to the people, why on earth you don't listen to them or completely disregard that they're showing up and they're like, we don't want this. I have a conversation with this, and that's one thing I've learned in community after community after community for 30 years.

Communities are willing to cooperate. Communities want to have their voice heard. They want to have a seat at the table. They are willing to compromise. But what they want to deal with is the lie. And that this is, again, I feel like I've come full circle that, young girl that showed up in Hinkley, California, what was really motivating the community and their frustration was, you lied. I didn't know. And that's the exact same thing that's happening here. This feels like the 90s to you again in some way. It does. I'm, I just feel full circle and I'm watching. You know, Hinkley was one town, one utility, and one aquifer. This This is every town, every utility, every resource across the country. I think the stakes are really high for the people.

And what's really got their goat, if you will, in everything. And I've had mayors call me. I've had city council members call me. I've had California legislation call me. And I'm getting the same reports. other city council members who are now not in office, this was an absolute secret. Have the AI companies reached out to you to say,

hey, Aaron, well, you know, we understand your concern, but we're really not so terrible. We're doing X, Y, and Z to, you know, ameliorate the situation or anything. Do you ever hear from the corporate side where they try to get you to come on over and understand their point of view? No.

Never. I have to laugh at that. They're like, oh, shit. They're not that stupid. No. You know, that's interesting because I did get a text from somebody who said there was a data center executive out of Dallas. It's somebody that I work with would like to have a meeting. Will you take that meeting?

Here's the thing. Sure, with the people. You don't have to have a meeting with me. You have to have a meeting with the people. With the community in question. Who's backyards are being their life turned upside down. And I'll be happy to show up for a meeting with all of them. Erin, I wonder, do you use AI yourself?

No, not much. I get curious. I use it out of curiosity. And when I do talk about AI, I encourage people. Remember who you're talking to. It's a machine, okay? It is a tool that could be used for good purposes. I don't think it's be all, end all.

And I've always encouraged people. It's a tool. But you have to use your own brain. Vet your information. It's a tool. Use it for the good tool it is. You don't need to use it for anything else. So use it or don't use it.

But the fact that to have this, AI is at the expense. First of all, the big companies don't be appearing to pay for it. Now, we're watching a lot of things happen and where states are now not giving them the tax breaks. They're starting to say, you have to pay for all the electrical. But for us, we, the people, to now have to have water consumption issues, electrical bills going up, water bills going up, the loss of our sanctuary, our wildlife, everything, and all the resources at once are at jeopardy, it's too much. The name Aaron Brockovich is associated with class action lawsuits.

Do you see a class action lawsuit in the offing here? Well, the case that I was involved in that everyone became famous for Hinkley was a direct action, not a class action that depends. You could. There's a lot of diminution of property value, but I would see possibly in that, that's going to be up to all the lawyers to decide. It wouldn't be one national class. It could be state by state, but I see the lawsuits coming. You are seeing more citizens and communities that are organized hiring attorneys.

I'm starting to see actually now in a couple of places where they've put on moratoriums, the city councils, are now being sued by the tech giants, there's a couple of them out there for a hundred million or more. That's going to be really hard for these small local cities to push back on that. So I think that you'll start to see more litigation like that. AI executives will tell you this is going to bring a lot of jobs, endless amounts of innovation. It's going to make everybody's life better.

And, you know, yeah, again, there's difficulties along the way. How much do you trust, if at all, AI executives and AI innovators? I don't. I don't, and I don't think the people do. And you're showing all of them that you can't be trustworthy. If this is so great and so awesome, what's the nondisclosure agreement? If it's so great and so awesome, come out here and talk to these communities whose love lives, you are turning upside down.

It's no different than PG&E hiding the information and not coming out to talk to these people. Oh, behind your back, I'm sorry, I'm poisoning you. So there's not going to be a lot of trust with these giant corporations. So this is just about money then in the end? For them? Sure. But for the people, it's their land. It's their home.

It's their water. It's their resources. It's their sanctuary. It's the rivers and the creeks and the tributaries that all of us enjoy. And it's coming at like a mass invasion. We're not talking one or two. We're talking. It's happening simultaneously across the country.

And so there's not going to be a lot of trust with the people. Tell me your next steps. Well, right now gathering more information, I'm going to start going out to some of these communities. I'm going to start going out to some of the ones that are construction, up and running. and in some communities are asking me to start coming to their city council members meetings. And look, I can't be everywhere at once. But this is what I tell the people, you're there. You're showing up.

And so on my Brockovich report, every week we're doing a story about this. We give a lot of tips to different communities, who they can network with, how they can join forces. And that's really important because it's really hard as well. one. And they are starting to make a difference. And the more of them that are together, the more support they are for each other. I've not ever seen this in 30 years. Erin Brockovich, thanks so much. Hey, thank you. Erin Brockovich. The mapping tool that she's launched is at brocovichdata center.com. BrokovichdataCenter.com. I'm David Remnick, and that's our program for today. Thanks for joining us.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer. With guidance from Emily Boutin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Gwan, and Alejandra The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.